BS: What's out and what's in

Subject: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 08:54 AM

I've just read a report from the Office for National Statistics, which reveals several items no longer in vogue with shoppers.

I was amazed (and not best pleased) to see that pork pies and Edam cheese are 'out'. As are peaches and nectarines.
I did wonder about Edam, because I couldn't find any in Morrisons, until I was directed to the delicatessen counter, as if it's so rare it has to be kept separately. Just after the War we ate loads of the stuff. And pork pies....well!

Apparently, women's exercise leggings are 'in'. And that ghastly ready-cooked mashed potato in microwaveable meals. Grooo.
Quiche is now a la mode, which I'm proud about as I make my own with very nice pastry using LARD. I'll soon be needing those exercise leggings...

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 09:10 AM

Best pies overall are in Lancashire but I must reluctantly admit that the finest pork pies I have tried are from Yorkshire. Cheese is similar. the further you get from Lancashire the worse it gets so by the time you get over the water to Dutchland, it isn't worth bothering with :-)

I shall miss neither in our local Morrisons and I definitely will not be wearing leggings :-D

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 09:30 AM

Haha Dave, I'm disappointed - I'd have liked to have seen a photo of you wearing some leggings!

As we don't live 'Oop North', we have to make do with our local offerings. Aylsham in Norfolk has a shop where they make their own pork pies, many different fillings (apple, herbs, spices etc added to the pork) They're gorgeous. And Edam cheese is fairly low in fat. I can't imagine not eating peaches or nectarines, they're so sweet and juicy.

I'd look what Norfolk people would call a 'Roit Dolly' in a pair of leggings. My husband would have a fit laughing his head off.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Charmion
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 09:36 AM

On moving across Ontario, we arrived in Pork Heaven, where pies abound, bacon is normal, sausages compete for our attention, and schnitzel is a thing. Leggings are "in" in Perth County, as in just about everywhere else in Canada, because they're warm and they fit into the top of your boots, so you're not trailing trouser cuffs in the slush. Also, elastic waistband -- need I say more? Especially in pork pie territory.

We are also the fashion hub with respect to parkas with fur around the hood, and knitted toques (pronounced "toook" in these parts). Also, the kind of rubberized snowboots that are easy to kick off at the door, because no well-brought-up Canadian wears their outdoor footwear in the house.

It's March and it's snowing. Again. At this time of the year, nobody cares about what's in and what's out except shirttails, because of the draughts.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 09:43 AM

Someone so famous that I can't remember who said words to the effect of fashion is something so awful it needs to be changer every couple of months. I think it is very true!

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 09:46 AM

I think we call those knitted toques 'beanies' Charmion. My husband has several. I agree leggings are very practical. but I doubt my...er...plump legs would fit in them!
I feel sorry for you and keberoxu still having horrible snow to contend with. A nice tasty pork pie would help to keep out the cold. I'm glad over in Canada sensible and delicious food is still 'in'.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 01:04 PM

Imagine the poor souls in the National Statistics Office whose job is to sit there counting the things people buy. And trying to spot a 'trend'. Actually, how do they know? Do they spy on shoppers as they trundle round the supermarkets?
("Psst! There's that fat old lady and the African chap, buying dozens of crumpets and hot chillis again! Crumpets must be 'in'!!")
What do you suppose is the point?

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 01:46 PM

They need to know what is 'in' to help with future orders. They generally do their own research using things like loyalty cards but they do use 3rd party market research as well. Anything that can help predict what there is going to be a rush on is worth its way in gold to the retail trade.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 02:02 PM

I've been looking online and they actually report to the Government, although they are an independent body. Good heavens, do you suppose Theresa May knows how many crumpets I buy?

The information I read said they also provide a 'snapshot' of the country as it changes, and it monitors all sorts of things, not just the food we eat.
I never knew all this; it's quite fascinating. I'm really nosy, so it would be fun to work there and see what everyone's up to.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Michael
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 06:24 PM

Here you are Mr Gnome:

“Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months.”

? Oscar Wilde


Mike

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 11:15 PM

You put ice cream on quiche????

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: meself
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:13 AM

Apparently what are called 'toques' in Canada are called in the U.S.: 'knitted wool caps', 'beanies', 'toboggans'(??), and ... 'hats'.

I don't think any self-respecting Canadian would call them 'beanies' - for us, those are silly little skull-caps worn by (at-least-temporarily-)silly people for silly purposes.

Actually, when I was kid, we called them 'stocking caps', so I guess it depended where you were from in Canada. I think that one is used in the States as well.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:38 AM

Thanks Michael, that's the one!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 04:44 AM

Rap, I never mentioned ice-cream on quiches. But that's a novel idea!

My husband calls his woolly hat 'un bonnet' (pronounced 'bonnay') His curly hair is getting so thick now that he can hardly cram the hat over it. But he's not getting it clipped until Spring arrives.

I've been pondering over this 'trend' business. The problem is that in UK there are so many regions and cultures that it would be nigh on impossible to label the lot under one 'trend'. What's all the rage in, say, Liverpool wouldn't be all that popular down in Norfolk. So perhaps the Office for National Statistics breaks the country down into sections?

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:09 AM

The retail trade certainly break down the trends nationally, Eliza. If you were to go into a Morrisons in Bradford the range would be a far cry from your local one. In fact there is a distinct difference between my 2 local ones at Keighley and Skipton.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:25 AM

That makes sense Dave. Even here, the different supermarkets/shops vary according to where they're situated. I was looking for cornflour to make cheese sauce. Asda (near the City) only had 'cheese sauce mix' (yuk) but Roys of Wroxham out on the Broads had several makes of cornflour (including dear old Brown and Poulson), as people are more traditional there.

Conversely, my husband likes to have many different (and hot) spices in his cupboard, but Roys of Wroxham only have one - 'curry powder'. However, in the City, there are numerous Asian shops selling all kinds of exotic stuff, and he happily goes there to browse to his heart's content.
I like the diversity. It's all very interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 08:28 AM

What do you suppose is the point?

So they can tax it.

The retail trade certainly break down the trends nationally

Yea - and they are rationalising. eg Staffordshire Oatcakes not available in Warwick or Worcester any more but as you get nearer Staffordshire**..... Coventry, Kidderminster or Leamington do and curiously Wantage (go figure). Mind you if you ask Sainsbury's they are very helpful and look up their stores that do range (fancy verb for stock) and even write the address for you. Tescos seem less savvy in that respect.

** in Derbys, Notts, Leics and bits of Hallamshire - they can be found readily. Think savoury pancakes with oats & yeast.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 08:51 AM

Mr Red, I was watching one of those Police programmes recently, and the two coppers on patrol stopped to buy some of those Staffordshire oatcakes at a takeaway. They were enormous (the oatcakes, not the police officers) and looked absolutely delicious. I could have reached into the TV and bought one myself! Never seen them here in Norfolk sadly.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 10:16 AM

Staffordshire oatcakes online

Enjoy

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 10:31 AM

Ooooh Dave, thank you! I think I'll have a bash at making some myself.
I like cooking, and this is something new.
(I'll never get into those leggings now will I?)

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:04 PM

Imagine the poor souls in the National Statistics Office whose job is to sit there counting the things people buy. And trying to spot a 'trend'.

There's probably an app for that. Or Google analytics.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 04:24 AM

Here you are, Eliza. Just for you.

Gnome leggings

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 04:31 AM

Pwaaaaahaaahaaaaagh Dave!!! Love them!! Might get myself a pair (in an enormous size of course).

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 04:52 AM

oatcake mix? Now yer talking, I have been thinking of getting an electric pancake griddle but balked at making and fermenting the batter from scratch.

Hmm thinks

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Raedwulf
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 11:08 AM

If it's any consolation, Sen, I lol'd at " I'll soon be needing those exercise leggings..." ;-)

It's a random abstract basket of... stuff... That the ONS uses to try to offer a sensible figure as to the current Rate of Inflation... Even though no-one knows or gives a damn what in this hypothetical basket! So they change things occasionally, it gets reported once a year and 2 months later... Everyone tuts or cheers because whichever RoI (yes, we have more than one!) has gone whichever way with no-one any the wiser...

As to supermarkets, they didn't get to be supermarkets by being stupid. They stock global brand, and national brands, and local stuff. And you can be very sure that sales, even at store level are very carefully monitored. If it doesn't sell, it will be dumped; if it does sell, the stocking will spread to other local stores... Etcetera. It should be fairly obvious. I used to be employed by the world's largest educational publisher as an analyst / programmer on their UK Order system, so I know *exactly* how this stuff works at business level...

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 11:38 AM

Well as I understand it Raedwulf, from your and everyone else's explanations,it's basically supply and demand. I'm interested from a personal point of view to see where I stand among the general trends and 'in' stuff. Do I have tastes that deviate from the latest norm, or am I fairly typical of today's consumers?

We've noticed that the supermarkets we frequent (mostly Morrisons, Asda and Tesco) have quite a different emphasis on what they stock, and it appears to be linked to the social environment in which they're situated. (City, touristy town and The Sticks)

I'm completely sure I'm way off the bottom of the graph regarding the latest technology items on offer in, say, PC World. or the latest fashions (!) I haven't a clue about these things.

I just wonder what actually drives these trends and gets them to rise in popularity causing the shops to stock the items. I suppose it must be the Meedja innit?

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 05:00 PM

so I know *exactly* how this stuff works at business level...

Hmmm........

Sainsbury's declared they would stock Staffordshire Oatcakes in every store, way back in the '90s. It was to entice custom, with the unique selling point in the hope other things were bought while there. I am sure they had a list of products they did this with. But in the hiatus of 2008, profit levels made them think market share was not affordable. Maybe the guy making the decisions was from Stoke-on-Trent and he has retired!

One only has to look at the coffee aisle to see this in action. Coffe is coffee, right? Free trade from here, there, Colombian, brand A, brannd B, refill sachets, Nespresso (am I boring yet).

I can't imagine books as loss leaders - but who knows.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Joe_F
Date: 17 Mar 18 - 08:09 PM

But from the oats in Staffordshire
Do come our lumpytums.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 05:05 AM

'Potatoes are a windy meat'... strange, my husband has recently started to prefer spuds to basmati rice, and ...er....

I have a lumpytum anyway, so I can eat Staffordshire oatcakes without noticing anything different (except perhaps a lumpiertum)

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Raedwulf
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 11:48 AM

In the purely business sense of "How do we get people to buy our products", publishing works no different to anything else. So yes, there are promotions & loss leaders within the world of books, packs & promotions to try to move older stock, never mind any promotions the large sellers can negotiate with the publisher (which, as with the supermarkets & their suppliers, often means "What can we bully you into giving us"). Publishing specific things like AOD (Available On Demand i.e. we can now print a copy when you want it, rather than having to do print runs & hold stock) and, increasingly, e-publishing are more recent innovations.

Essentially, you're both correct, Sen & Red. What has altered in the last 30 years or so is not only the power of computing & of the databases that now lie at the core of the organisation of anything beyond a very small company, but also the familiarity with it, especially on the part of non-IT workers. Sales & Marketing used to be more about persuading people to buy, whether that meant thinking up an ad campaign or teaching shop floor staff sales techniques. Now, because of the increased power and understanding of IT, there is a vast amount of data analysis involved. If your database is properly set up, you can find all sorts of things out relatively easily. Think of a database as a giant spreadsheet - you can sort by Column A, Column E, etc...

A fair proportion of my work used to be ad-hoc reports - "Can you tell me how many customers in South America haven't placed an order in the last 3 months?" Yep. Routine queries are basic to modern db's - "how many of product ABC or JKL have been sold since date X, break it down by month, please?" You don't need me for that; the database interface will allow you to enter your own parameters. Many reports will run automatically & send a spreadsheet to your Inbox (monthly sales reports - we'd run 20, 30, 40 copies of the same basic report, each with slightly different parameters for different people). For other more detailed or less common reports, you might have a bunch of menus that allow you to run them when you neeed them - select the report, give it a few parameters...

That's the IT user side. From the IT fundamental / structural side, consider what's involved in a very simple order. You have a customer; you have a product; they want to buy it. Data is stored in tables. One customer has one line in the customer table; one product has one line in the product table; the order table gets a lot more complicated, so I shall massively over-simplify! Each individual line has a lot of different bits of information; the technical term being "fields". A customer has a name, an address, and code that says what country / region they are from. A product has a name, a price, and some sort of class code (real book or e-book; meat, veg, household cleaning product). Every line has at least one unique reference (known as the "Primary Key") - a Customer Number, so now I can distinguish John Smith from John Smith from John Smith! Or a Product ID (PID) - I can tell "Folk Music" by Mr Red from "Folk Music" by Senoufou without having to dig down to author, etc.

The order table... The reason this gets complicated is because a single order might have more than one line (someone might want to order both of your books at the same time! ;-) ). But keeping it simple... The Primary Key is the Order Number. Beyond that, I need to store the Customer Number, and the PID. There will be a bunch of other fields - the order date, quantity, delivery charges, the total order cost. But I don't need the customer name or address, any of the product details - I know the Customer Number & the PID. At day-end, when the system churns out today's orders, passes information on to e.g. the despatch dept, and generates invoices, I can look up the customer's name & address from the customer table, using the Customer Number, and then print them on the invoice.

That is a very, very simple example of how an Order To Cash system processes an order. From there, you can see how easily that you, a regional manager, or a sales analyst can start data-mining. As far as I know, supermarket sales purchasing works on a regional basis. Let's suppose the smallest unit is at county level (I doubt it is). Individual store managers probably have a limited independence ("We're pushing these 5 lines this month, you have to take 3 of them"), but may have a small amount of autonomy ("I'd like to stock this in my store").

The county sales manager will change the monthly offers regularly. He may drop products entirely if they don't sell well, or order all his stores to pick up one particular line. If two stores have picked up Bloggs' Best Bitter (what? This is a folk site! ;-) ) and it's selling well, he may decided to push it across several more stores under him. Above him, is the regional manager, covering several counties. She is doing the same thing at a higher level. So now Bloggs' Best gets sold even more widely. On the other hand, she can also see that if you put Xmas puds into Gloucs stores on Dec 3, they fly off the shelves, but there's no point in selling them in Wilts till Dec 12...

When someone says "supply & demand", that's how it actually works. The change is the rapidity with which companies can react. Shipbuilding hasn't changed much - it still takes months to build a ship you'll be using for years, and you're planning for trends that run in decades. But in the same way that email & social media has changed the rapidity with which we communicate with each other, so modern technology has changed the way a can of beans gets treated, and things alter much more quickly.

After that I get a bit hazy. The ONS exists to collect statistics, so obviously at least some part of the minute detail makes it out into the public domain. Quite how they operate, I don't know, but if less people are buying pork pies because we've become more "health conscious" then out it goes. Equally, if new products appear (iPhones, onesies, whatever) & sell enough to make them look they'd be a decent indicator of the overall impact of national inflation on "ordinary" households... I hope this hasn't been too tedious to read!

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 12:34 PM

Gracious Raedwulf that's absolutely fascinating! It's a fine science isn't it? What a far cry from the small local grocer and greengrocer etc from our youth!
I'd call a lot of that 'Commercial Statistics', and it's obvious that enormous sums of money depend on getting it right.
I can't quite decide if 'They' are driving our tastes and choices or it's the other way round. I suppose a bit of both.
There's also the factor of competition. I bet there are spies seeing what rival supermarkets and outlets are up to.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:24 PM

If you walk into an American grocery store (at least in my southern mid-western area) you will find entire aisles of snack foods, mostly chips (corn and potato with some gourmet alternatives thrown in) and aisles of pet foods (bags and cans of varieties from lots of different makers). And soft drinks. If you go into an Asian market in my area, you won't find nearly so much pet food, you'll find a portion of an aisle with the staples, some dry, some canned, dog and cat food. Instead, you'll find entire aisles dedicated to varieties of rice. Large bags of short, medium, and long grain rice, jasmine rice, basmati rice, etc. There is a HUGE produce section. And an entire aisle of rice noodles. And an aisle of sauces. If you visit the Halal market (across the street from the Asian market I visit, lucky for me) you'll find little if any dog and cat food or chips. But you'll find an entire aisle of teas and spices, and another aisle of types of olive oil and ghee. And a whole section of the store, 3+ aisles, of types of rice. The Halal market doesn't have commercial bread delivery, they have a bakery and produce several types of flat breads.

The Asian market has a frozen section, as does the Halal market, but it isn't nearly as large as the American grocery and there are more ingredients frozen there, not completely prepared foods - by this I mean you'll find things that go into dishes, not the dishes themselves. The Asian market has an amazing fish and meat area, far more robust that the meat counter in American groceries. The Halal market has a much smaller meat market and fewer offerings.

The Hispanic grocery I visit is kind of a mix of these - they have a robust and richly arrayed produce section, offering lots of things I have not idea how to fix or eat, from Mexico, Central, and South America. They also have some Asian foods. There is a large bakery producing traditional Mexican breads but the store also has the typical aisles of breads, chips, dog food, and more. The meat and fish sections are generous with "typical" American meats and fish and then some cuts and meats (cows head, goat, etc.) that you would never find in an American-style grocery. The Hispanic groceries operate more like a village square with one-stop shopping for their customers, who can pay many bills there, can buy insurance, can have shoes repaired or polished, can do their banking, can pay for annual car tags (I go there every year to pick up my tags).

American grocery stores feel sterile in many ways. Sometimes they blow the smell of baking bread or frying bacon or chicken into the store to temp shoppers, but otherwise everything is vacuum sealed and without a scent. That can't be said of the other stores I described. If you want every flavor offered of every main brand available, then Albertsons or Kroger or Tom Thumb or HEB or Walmart or Target or WinnDixie (though they're going into chapter 11, apparently), etc. is for you.

There is another type of grocery store, more like Aldi. They have small sections of everything they offer, so you have to look along the aisle carefully to find the sauce or peanut butter or cereal type or spice or canned good you want. The freezer is modestly porportioned but there is usually one brand of each thing you might want that would be considered a food staple. Trader Joes offers a few more things than Aldi, but not much (the companies are related) and there are American stores like SaveALot that function in the same way. These stores tend to carry store brands and they're all good, but cost a lot less than the name brands that pay megabucks to advertise on TV and in print ads and offer discount coupons.

Shoppers who shop only in the big name-brand grocery stores are missing out on savings, and despite the plethora of brands, sizes, and flavors of chips and dogfood, on variety.

My two cents. Not quite as long as Raedwulf's, but driven by years of observation and learning to shop better.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:26 PM

I work for Morrisons btw so I sort of know a bit about these things. As a little aside one of the late Ken Morrison's sayings is given pride of place on the office wall.

People remember the quality long after they have forgotten the price.

I like that.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:30 PM

Oh, and forgot to ask. Once we know what is in and what is out, do we then shake it all about?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:44 PM

Hahaha Dave!
We quite like this fairly new idea of the 'Seasonal Aisle', where they put all the Easter eggs, Hallowe'en stuff, or Crimbo things in one place. It makes it much easier to choose gifts, cards etc. And of course it encourages people to browse and buy.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: keberoxu
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 02:11 PM

In these United States,
the "seasonal aisle" has been around for years,
especially in those little markets
which are organized around what you Brits call "chemists."

In the US we call them "pharmacies"
and there are chains/franchises of such,
like Walgreens (all over the country),
and CVS (prevalent in the East, next to none further West).

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 02:30 PM

It's a good idea keberoxu. The trouble is, there have been Easter eggs in the Seasonal Aisle for weeks. And those very nice chocolate rabbits, with a little gold bell on a ribbon round their necks. (Lindt chocolate) I keep buying some to put away for our neighbours across the road (they have small children) BUT 'someone' keeps eating them and we have to buy another lot. It isn't my husband as he doesn't like chocolate. It must be the Greedy Chocolate Fairy... :)

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Raedwulf
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 05:11 PM

Definitely a bit of both, Sen. A bit of "Our customers are buying these products, how can we profit", and a bit of "Getting our customers to buy these products, we would make more profit". But first, you need to know exactly what they are buying to start with...

Acme - Much the same thing. If I want snacks or pet foods I'll go to X, but if I want rice... In the UK, it's much easier for the larger chains to undercut the small operator because we're more geographically compact. So the bigger entities try to gobble up the smaller. In the US, I'm guessing, it easier for a smaller chain to compete on the grounds that "we're offering you choice rather than cheap". So Walmart (or whoever) offer you three types of rice dirt cheap because they can buy it so cheap, whereas if you want a certain type of rice, or just a choice in rice...

Economics is only another form of Darwinism. The shark doesn't always win; it's a question of finding a niche, even creating a market that you can fill. But business, in every sector & at every level, is far more razor edge & cut-throat than it was.

Oh and, Sen, the seasonal aisle, to me, is "Oh good. All the crap I can happily ignore in one place..." ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 05:26 PM

I'm terrible Raedwulf, I love looking round shops and so does my husband. We spend ages in the big supermarkets just going up and down seeing what's on the shelves. We're not big spenders, but we're big browsers.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Raedwulf
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 09:24 PM

I'm a hunter - I know what I want, go get (what else would you expect from a wulf!) - you are gatherers - what is out there? It takes all sorts to make a tribe! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 03:11 AM

I think I'm more of a scout Raedwulf, because I don't accumulate much or 'gather', I just like to know what's around and to have a good look at it! ('Nosy' best describes it)

I think my husband tends a little more to a 'hunter', as he likes to have a sensible list and a pen, so he can tick off as we go round with our trolley. He's brilliant at remembering every supermarket and where to find each item.
But he's from a tribe which were hunters so I imagine he was born with this ability!

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Jos
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 05:22 AM

I prefer to go straight to the shelves where the goods I want are kept, so it really annoys me when the shop decides to move everything around - presumably to force customers to wander around looking for what they want and meanwhile happening to see and be tempted by things they would not normally buy.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 06:52 AM

That annoys me too, when stores move things around as a ploy to force you to wander the place and hope you impulse buy.

And they never know where to put Black Treacle.

Is it sugar - yes. Is it a baking product - yes. Is it a jam - never - but they don't know that. Is it on special offer so on none of those shelves? (never even at Christmas). Do they even stock it? (at this time of year?)

It's a jungle out there

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Jos
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 07:17 AM

I use black treacle at this time of year to add to the Simnel cake mix, which makes it darker so that the layer of almond paste shows up nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 09:35 AM

Black treacle (in those red tins) adds a lovely colour and flavour to any type of fruit cake. I well remember my mother using a tablespoon to drip the stuff into the cake mixture, and my sister and I waiting for ages so we could lick the spoon!
I noticed a new trend in Tesco this morning. They've started to group stuff under a huge sign that gives a blanket price. For instance, there was a huge selection of big Easter eggs, all at £10. And the bread seemed to be grouped in blocks of 55p a loaf, then £1 a loaf etc.
Perhaps people have a price in mind when they shop (very sensible) and go straight to it like programmed mice.
I wish Vim would be 'in' once more. I do miss that and have to buy it on Amazon. I suppose Cillit Bang is now 'in' instead.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Jos
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 10:16 AM

When I was a student we used to have black treacle in hot milk as a bedtime drink (this would be after the pub closed).

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 04:22 AM

I've been thinking about what drives trends, and haven't mentioned TV advertising. I should imagine it's the main instigator of consumerism.
By the time a wretched ad has been on dozens of times, driving one mad, it's brainwashed the entire nation and they swarm into the shops, where piles of the commodity are ready and waiting.
Even the songs and music of an advert on TV get into one's head, and the brain being what it is, the sight of the product on a supermarket shelf trigger recognition and interest.
I find all this slightly sinister actually.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 08:08 AM

of course the modern trend is to call Treacle Black treacle. Treacle is black, the other stuff is GOLDEN SYRUP

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 08:14 AM

I've noticed that too Mr Red. Syrup isn't treacle. But people seem to think one is a black version of the other. I don't like syrup much, but treacle has that lovely rich taste. I hope it's still 'in' and not 'out'!

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Charmion
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 10:45 AM

I think what you Brits call treacle (the black stuff) is what we on this side of the Herring Pond call molasses. My favourite fruitcake recipe came from a Tate & Lyle's treacle tin, but the flavour was quite unaffected when I substituted blackstrap molasses, having used up all the treacle.

The spring tonic my father called "brimstone and treacle" -- a home remedy for anaemia -- is known here as "sulfur and molasses".

Having recently moved across our very large province, from a big city with strong French-Irish-Scots roots to a largely rural county with mostly English and German foodways, I am constantly on the hunt for new foods, and for foods that I have heard or read about but never seen before. For example, the Stratford area has at least six shops that offer British sweets and delicacies, a Serbian butcher who sells the most luscious smoked pork chops (Kaessler) that I have ever seen, and several Mennonite providers of eggs, cheeses, baked goods, preserves and handicrafts. Farm-gate food is big here: not only organic vegetables, but also "heritage" breeds of chickens and ducks, and their eggs.

The organic food business is so big now that the chain supermarkets had to get into the act. Sobey's has whole aisles of products for orthorexics among us, and apparently plenty of people are willing -- nay, eager! -- to pay twice as much for a lemon with a sticker on it that says "organic".

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 11:19 AM

That's it Charmion, I'd forgotten that word 'molasses'. Tate and Lyle do Black Treacle in a lovely red, old-fashioned tin, and Golden Syrup in a green tin.
Our much-loved Liverpool comedian Ken Dodd lived at Knotty Ash (a real place!) and invented people called the Diddymen, who apparently mined treacle down the treacle mines (and jam butties too) He died very recently.
It sounds as if you have an excellent choice of different foods from many nations over there. Rural places such as where you now live often have lovely fresh, farm-reared/produced food.
Whether they're 'in' or 'out' those sorts of food will always be favourite with me.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 11:51 AM

My late Scottish friend, Adam, rest his soul, always referred to treacle in his Glasgow accent, as 'black trickle'.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Charmion
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:00 PM

A typical supermarket in eastern Canada stocks three grades of molasses for different uses. Fancy molasses is for drizzling on porridge, buttered bread, pancakes or Johnny-cake. Cooking molasses (thicker, darker and less sweet) is for baking -- Boston brown bread, gingerbread, crybaby cookies, pouding chomeur -- and for baked beans (feves au lard). Blackstrap molasses, the crudest grade, can be substituted for cooking molasses in any recipe but its high acidity gives it a distinctive taste that some people find a bit startling.

Molasses toffee is sold for Hallowe'en, though I'm told that it's not popular with modern kids so it will probably soon disappear -- like the liquorice cigar, I suppose. I loved molasses toffee as a child, and liquorice cigars! I wouldn't say no to one now, as it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 02:00 PM

Oh Charmion, liquorice cigars! And those 'sweet cigarettes' with pinky-coloured ends! This is turning into a nostalgia fest, but I used to go mad for liquorice skipping ropes (about a yard long) One end went in the mouth, and you chewed your way along it while reading the Beano and the Dandy comics. All that for sixpence (a bit over 2p)

Is liquorice still available? I bet anything you like that 'pretend' cigarettes are non-PC nowadays.
Wonder which sweets are now 'in'?

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Jos
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 02:06 PM

We used to make treacle toffee for bonfire night (five days after Hallowe'en) - we had a special little toffee hammer to break it up, because it was so hard.

My Oxford Dictionary says that treacle is "a - syrup produced in refining sugar. b - molasses".

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 03:55 PM

molasses is quite strong, and as I understand it largely devoid of invert sugar. Molasses also has a more turgid texture. Whereas treacle (Black) has a similar consistency to treacle (Golden Syrup). Treacle (Black) is less refined, though since Tate & Lyle bought up Blackies and Fowlers - I suspect it is just golden syrup and molasses, rather than cane sugar residues. Unless you keep the tin too long then it has a soupcon of ferric oxide and is realy bitter. I sent one back to T&L for analysis and got a 5GBP voucher to spend (worth about 4 tins). Never heard the outcome of the tin though. If it wasn't bad treacle manufacturing, it would have been poor plating.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 04:55 PM

Liquorice cigars:
Still available. I bought a cheap 'Selection Box' of liquorice from our local 'Home Bargains' just before Christmas. It had liquorice cigars, liquorice watches, liquorice Catherine wheels, liquorice traffic lights, & liquorice twists.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 05:18 PM

That's good to know Nigel. I'll keep my eyes open for some in the shops in Norwich.
When I was very small, my dear old grandfather, who wasn't very well-off, sent me a lovely little Birthday present of a liquorice set called Smokey Joe. In it were liquorice pipes, sweet cigarettes and a liquorice watch. I've never forgotten it or his kindness. He'd survived the trenches in WW1 and spoke incomprehensible Geordie.

There's a lot to learn about molasses and sugar refining isn't there? And what's NOT 'in' at the moment is sugar!

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: G-Force
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 06:11 AM

My dad used to like Browns Barley Kernels, and I used to absolutely love them. I think they're unavailable now, rather than just out of fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 06:29 AM

That sounds like the Barratts selection box my father was given for his birthday this year. We both thought it was pretty awful.

I guess tastes vary but this is tas good as I’ve had.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 06:40 AM

I don't remember the make of the liquorice set Jon, but this was over 65 years ago. Oh I did so love that liquorice!

I've noticed that supermarkets now have a complete aisle dedicated to microwaveable ready-meals. And of course, 'takeaway' food is very much 'in'. This is obviously a reflection of the fact that people work and when they come home they're too tired to cook from scratch. I understand that, but the ready-meals look pretty dire, and are very expensive for what they are.

My poor mother worked full time when I was about ten, yet she (and I when I got home from school!) cooked from scratch or batch-cooked. No microwaves then. We did occasionally have fish and chips though.

I've been watching with a bit more interest the TV ads (I normally hit the silent button on the remote) and they're linked to what's 'in', as one would expect. No sooner has a new product come on the TV than there it is, prominently displayed on the shelves of the supermarkets. I wonder how much people are influenced by the advertising, or do they reflect sensibly as to whether they really need this stuff?

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 07:00 AM

OK on to the ins and outs...

We like a good variety of cheese but Edam's never been on our list. Pork pies would only be occasional if we have visitor of a meat eating type. I can't see Pip (or Peter or I) wearing leggins.

Over the last year or so, we became quite reliant on microwave meals and veggie burger things with not much else and are currently on a drive to have more fresh veg now some things are easier.

It does mean me making them suffer a lot more of my cooking though - did Quorn fillets in a sauce/gravy with mash, sprouts and a mix of carrot, turnip and parsnip yesterday.

And I sometimes to give Pip a bit of a hand if she's cooking these days. Which brings me to the mash at the start of the thread... Haven't used it but mashing potatoes is one thing she can't do anymore, or at least not without getting a lot of pain in arthritic hands.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Jos
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 07:30 AM

I never liked liquorice allsorts, but I did like the liquorice straws in the tubes of sherbet.

As for advertising, it always strikes me as a bit dubious when products are advertised as "As Seen On TV !" as if being promoted (= advertised) on television was a guarantee of quality.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 07:41 AM

I used to love those sherbet fountains Jos. But did you ever suck too hard through the liquorice tube and choke yourself with the sherbet powder? I used to do that regularly!

We had (real) mashed potato last night. My husband added his Spicy Horror sauce and I had lean mince with mine. But it is indeed a bit fatiguing Jon to have to peel the spuds and then mash them. It must be hard if one has arthritis.
I see that baking potatoes are 'in', and I suppose people microwave them too. We boil or roast ours.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 07:51 AM

I remember having to save up from my shilling a week spends to buy a chocolate 'smokers set' from the posh shop up the road. I cannot remember what was in it but chocolate cigars formed part of it. Parents did not mind in them days!

On the subject of mash - Can it be done with an electric hand blender or would it be too difficult to stop it going too sloppy?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 08:03 AM

I don't remember specific "baking potaoes" in the past, S but we do get them now. Peter used to part boil then oven. Pip microwaves them. I've not done any in a while...

I'd have thought the electric hand blender difficult to get started with the spuds Dave? An alternative to the masher I have is a food mill (bought to process a glut of tomatoes one year...). It does a nice job but by the time I've got it out of the cupboard and dismantling and washing afterwards, I'd rather the plain hand masher.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 08:29 AM

Potatoes were just potatoes when I was a girl. But my father and I used to work on our allotment and we got most of our spuds that way. (New potatoes in Spring and Summer, then old ones stored in a sack in the shed)
We like browsing around our two shopping malls in Norwich for hours (a lovely modern idea, as one is protected from the cold) and they each have a Spud-U-Like. (which we do indeed like!) I've never noticed how they bake their spuds. Is it in a giant microwave, or an oven? I always grab four butter pats to have with mine. All that cholesterol! (which is definitely 'out' isn't it?)

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 08:43 AM

I don't know a Spud-U-Like, S (and haven't been into Norwich in over a year, and much longer than that day time - main reason for going to the city is an Irish session - something we hope to get back to a few times this year).

We do still grow a few meals worth of a new or salad type of potato. It's nice to have some of your own.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 08:45 AM

No, butter and potatoes are both good natural products and are in but I suspect 4 portions would be frowned upon!

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 09:05 AM

Oooh Dave I love you XXXXX!!! I've always felt the same about full milk, butter, cream and lard. If they're natural (not processed or trans fats) then they're OK. I just couldn't live on Benecol, skimmed milk, vegetarian Quorn, vegetable oil and so on. I seem to be doing alright so far!

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Charmion
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 09:13 AM

I am an unrepentant potato snob. Russets -- dark-skinned and sort of oblong -- are for baking in the oven; the round white or pink jobs are for boiling; and the yellow-fleshed type (often called Yukon Gold even if they aren't of that precise variety) are for nuking and any cookery method involving high heat and fat, such as roasting in duck dripping or goose grease. There is also a blue-fleshed type, once common in the Maritime provinces, but they are ridiculously expensive at the supermarket. Much better to grow your own, as your granny from Chignecto might have done.

Potatoes usually get nuked at our house, then popped into the toaster-oven to simulate baking in the real oven, so I usually get the yellow kind.

The "in" potatoes around here are about the size of gob-stoppers and sold in twee little zip-lock bags that hold less than a kilo. Each bag contains three colours: pink (called Cardinal), white, and blue. You know you're dining with the foodies when they hit your plate.

If you had told me 30 years ago that I would live in a time of fashionable potatoes, I would have thought you were smoking dope.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 09:14 AM

Each to their own there, S. I'm a fussy (lamb - yuk, fat - yuk...) meat eater living with 2 vegetarians. I could cater more for myself with meat cooked to my own liking but I rarely miss it and things are simpler this way. Did have bacon and chips last week though and I do enjoy a turkey meal at Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 09:22 AM

Wow, Charmion, I've not heard of anything like that! We do sometimes get a bag (maybe 1Kg) of supermarket "baby potatoes" though. Just wash and boil.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Jos
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 09:55 AM

Butter is definitely now 'in', as are lard (good levels of omega 3) and goose fat (liquid at body temperature so unlikely to block arteries).
I start my potatoes in the microwave to save time and then finish in the oven, and eat with LOTS of butter and a sprinkling of chives.
If the potatoes have messy (scabby) skins I peel them and have mash. For mashed potatoes a ricer, like a huge garlic crusher, produces light and fluffy potato but extra washing up, so I usually don't bother.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 03:20 AM

All that cholesterol! (which is definitely 'out' isn't it?)

Weeeeeellllll ............. modern thinking is that butter is better than no butter. Going for the wrong cholesterol all the time produces hard deposits on yer arteries, which don't dissolve easily.

If you think about it: humanity has had domestic dairy animals for about 10,000 years (say 30,000+ generations) and evolution favoured those tolerant of lactose products.

Like all things culinary/medical it is a question of balance, and quantity. Coloric restriction has benefits, but it ain't much fun - definitely a cult in and by a majority vote - out.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 03:28 AM

the BT NotSo Hotspot I use, forces me to ignore such delightful propositions like:

What are chia seeds and how do you eat them? - assuming there is an imperative somehow.

And adverts for equity release are, effectively, even more pejorative. They don't tell you it is a loan - with interest - plus a stake in the inflationary price of your house! "Loose, Loose" is not their mantra!

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 03:34 AM

At my last MOT the practice nurse burbled on about 'good' cholesterol levels (mine are high-ish) and 'bad' cholesterol levels (mine are low)
Never heard such a load of old tosh in my life, but I sat smiling benignly as I really like her, she's so fat and jolly.

Shortly after that, a new severe lady (not sure of her role) wanted to see me, and said I need to go on statins. They seem to be 'in' at the moment, and I bet the drug companies are rubbing their hands and their bosses booking trips to Barbados. I said I jolly well wouldn't (best 'naughty girl attitude') and she wasn't terribly pleased. She looked as if she'd like to give me detention or 100 lines.

As you say, people have dairy-farmed for millennia, and we're well able to cope with milk, butter and cheese. It's all the processed rubbish that's not good for us.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 03:47 AM

I am recently on statins, Eliza. If you do not get side effects they really do benefit you in all sorts of ways. The only effect I have had, and I am speaking to the doc about it today, is the occasional nose bleed!

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 03:53 AM

Ah, hope they can sort it out Dave. Having nosebleeds is rather disconcerting.
I have a friend who's 91. She was recently told she needs statins to reduce her cholesterol. She laughed her head off, and told the doctor if he lived as long as her, he'd be doing all right.

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 05:00 AM

It is the benefits to the vascular system that are the biggest draw. As well as helping to avoid strokes and heart attacks they assist in preventing vascular dementia. Both my parents had high fat, low exercise later lives and both ended up with blood pressure and heart issues as well as vascular dementia brought on by restriction of blood vessels. If anything can help avoid that without nasty side effects it is a no brainer really. Don't rule them out on a whim but, as ever, you need to do what is right for you.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 07:49 AM

I shall bear in mind what you say Dave. It's worth considering. I must try not to be so dismissive and keep an open mind!

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 10:22 AM

Monitor your short term memory. It fades as you age, but there is plenty of apocryphal evidence that a potential side effect of statins is memory problems. If I remember rightly, er, what was the question?

One regular at Folk Festivals took himself off statins because he realised he was becoming diabetic. Another known potential side effect.

Of course it would help if you chose your parents well.............

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 10:45 AM

I may not be that good looking or talented or athletic or, errr, where was I going with this, errr

I know. I like bacon!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What's out and what's in
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 12:26 PM

I just took out some Life Insurance on the phone yesterday, and the very helpful chap went through the health questions. There were ten of them, and seemed very concerned with smoking. Did I smoke? Had I ever smoked? Had I taken drugs such as cocaine, ever smoked cannabis?

Then he turned to alcohol. How many units per week? Had I ever been in rehab? (!!) Had I ever been arrested for drink-related offences?
As the answers to this lot was "No", I was left thinking I've led a very mundane life. Perhaps I ought to have kicked my heels up a bit more and got blind drunk while smoking weed.

Then had I ever tried to commit suicide? (not yet!)

But lastly, how fat was I? (not exactly his phrasing) and what dress size? Strangely, he decided I was 'overweight' but not 'obese'. Phew!

All this shows what many people must do - drinking, smoking, drug-taking and so on. These activities must be nearing the 'in' category, sadly.