Is a singer a musician?

Subject: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST,Andiliqueur
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:46 AM

I am a singer with no musical training. I can sing in tune but play no instrument. Can I class myself as a 'musician'?

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: r.padgett
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:49 AM

Yes

a good idea to get an instrument though and work out the song tunes and usual keys you sing in (by ear)

Ray

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:54 AM

According to the dictionary I've just read, a musician is "any person who plays a musical instrument". Is the human voice an instrument? That's really the question. I suppose you can't 'play' your voice so, from that perspective, the answer is no.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:01 AM

From the definition I quoted above, it seems crazy a triangle player can be classed as a musician when an opera singer, or the like, can't.
Anybody who makes music is a musician however, I should point out that's personal definition definition.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: G-Force
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:25 AM

I have been singing all my life, mostly folk, and have worked really hard at it. I definitely consider my voice an instrument and look after it really carefully. Just think of the work that goes into producing a good performance. Obviously get the tune and the words right, but there's appropriate phrasing and articulation, which will be vary greatly for different types of song and timing is vital. You must watch the audience carefully to see how well you're doing, which may mean a swift change of presentation if you sense you're not connecting with them. Also, if you're being accompanied there's real teamwork and co-operation involved. All performers have to develop a rapport with their audience and that goes for singers as well as musicians. And lastly, who dared to compare my voice to a triangle!

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:29 AM

It's always been my opinion that the human voice is the most accessible musical instrument, if used as such
Classical singing aside, listen to some of the most skilful examples of folk singing and you'll hear some of the most skilful extensions of the human voice as you will in any other musical form - Mongolian throat singing, Genoese Tralaleri, the complex percussive rhythms of the Lomax's Texas chain gangs - down to Elizabeth Cronin's beautiful use of implosives (notes sung on he intake of breath)... superb msuicianship
The finest examples of these are to be found on Bert Lloyd's 'Folk Song Virtuoso' - anybody who hasn't heard this but wishes to PM me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST,Andiliqueur
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:39 AM

I should say that I have sung with my husband who plays guitar for many years and I do work hard at my performance. I am therefore an experienced folk singer but I have always assumed that he was the musician not me. I just wondered what other people's views were.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:44 AM

Agreed with most of your posting G, but some reservations about this:
"All performers have to develop a rapport with their audience and that goes for singers as well as musicians."
I believe that if a singer>musician has a rapport with their song or their piece of music, the listener will develop a rapport with you.
An old singer once told me "if you like your songs enough it's not difficult to get others to feel the same about them"
A win-win situation all round - you enjoy your singing as much as your listeners enjoy hearing you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:48 AM

Most real traditional music is not performed by musicians, that is not to say that music as opposed to song is in any way inferior.

Perhaps becoming too common in traditional circles, but that is simply a matter of opinion.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Andy7
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:55 AM

From dictionary.com:

musician (noun)

1. a person who makes music a profession, especially as a performer of music.

2. any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 07:08 AM

It all changes if it's used in conjunction with the word 'session'. A singer's session and a musician's session are quite different things. In a singer's session it's one at a time, you take your turn and then wait for every one else to have a go before you sing again, except for joining in on choruses of course.

A mixed session accommodates both singing and tunes.

In a musician, or 'tunes' session it's tunes only. Someone starts a set of tunes and if you know it you join in. If you know lots of tunes you can play all night. An occasional song in a tunes session is OK but too many attempts a singing can result in hostility. People go to tunes sessions to play tunes, not to listen to singers.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 08:00 AM

According to the Oxford Dictionary a musician is "A person who plays a musical instrument, especially as a profession, or is musically talented."

According to the same dictionary a singer is "A person who sings, especially professionally."

To answer the question posed in the OP

"I am a singer with no musical training. I can sing in tune but play no instrument. Can I class myself as a 'musician'?

I would say no you cannot classify yourself as a "musician", by your own admission you say that you have "no musical training". There are of course varying degrees and I would think requirements. Personally I do not think that anyone who cannot read music can truly call themselves a musician.

By your description you are a singer that can sing in tune and hold a tune which means that you have been born with a wonderful and natural gift. Count your blessings there are many "professional performers" who cannot sing to save themselves.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST,Andiliqueur
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 08:29 AM

Thanks Observer. I agree with you. I have a natural talent and I have been very glad of it and it has been a joy to me my whole life. Increasingly I'm beginning to wonder if singing 'out of tune' is the new singing 'in tune' as there seems to be a lot of it about and no one seems to challenge it but then perhaps that's a subject for another thread?

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 09:40 AM

"Personally I do not think that anyone who cannot read music can truly call themselves a musician."

Bit of a bugger for people like Django Reinhardt, eh?

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 09:45 AM

Ask a silly question... :-)

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 09:56 AM

As with all such words, usage varies. The most logical definition is: "someone who makes music as a habit". This includes composers, producers, amateurs, and of course "horrible musicians". To be called a musician is not a particular honour, and to call oneself thus is not a boast.

On the other hand, someone who is merely "musically talented" but never makes or made music will scarcely qualify – the Oxford Dictionary is wrong.

Neither will someone who sings in the bathroom without expecting anyone to hear it. And of course, there are fringes in the definition of "music".

Colloquially, the term is sometimes confused with "instrumentalists", not necessarily because vocal music is considered inferior. For example, sloppy journalists may write about "singers and musicians" at an opera house, presumably believing that the singers are more important than the instrumentalists.

Those who worry too much about words are often struck with an inferiority complex or other problems they do not dare to address properly.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: leeneia
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 01:04 PM

Yes. Now stop internetting and start singing. St. Patrick's Day is a few days away. How many good Irish songs do you have ready?

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek51
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 01:35 PM

I am a singer... I play instruments but not at a level that I consider worth doing in public

music is music whether created by vocal chords or instruments... so a musician is one who makes music regardless of how they do it... it's up to others if it's worth listening to... but in these days of labeling and pidgeonholing and filling in blanks on forms, we tend to restrict ourselves. in my opinion

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST,Ebor Fiddler
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 01:42 PM

I notice that nobody has mentioned drummers ...

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: G-Force
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:06 PM

It's possible to sing musically and it's possible to sing unmusically. So I guess a musical singer is a musician.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:27 PM

Okay so in some dictionaries a singer is a musician but in everyday language I would regard a musician as someone who plays a musical instrument and a singer as just that, a singer; so I would describe myself in this context as a singer/musician. If I wanted to use a single word I would use performer. If someone described themselves as a musician in everyday language I would expect them to pull out an instrument.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:53 PM

Try various definitions of music and I think they are fairly consistent
the Oxford English Reference Dictionary seems to b typical of the ones on our shelves where it gives the first definition as "The are of combining or instrumental sounds (or both) to produce, beauty of form, harmony and expression of emotion
The second - the sound produced
Three and four refer to compositions written and printed
The fifth - certain pleasant sounds, eg - birdsong or a stream
In Scotland, port-a-buel translates literally as "mouth music"
Wide enough to include the voice as a musical instrument as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:34 PM

I don't think anyone has questioned the definition of 'music'.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:03 PM

THey haven't but if sounds produced by the voice falls within that definition, then by definition, the voice is a musical instrument - as guest Sol points out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:11 PM

what's the advantage of being a musician rather than a singer?

i've played guitar since i was a kid, but i like to think of myself as a guitar player -rather than a musician.

i quite like musicians, but they're on a different planet from the rest of us. you don't get to be good by being normal.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:30 PM

I would say that that's the wrong question. Or, perhaps, a secondary question. The primary question, surely, is "WHAT is a musician?" The trite & obvious answer, obviously, is "Someone that makes music!" That it's trite & obvious doesn't mean it's wrong, though it might suggest that a more thorough & considered answer is a good idea...

But only if you know (which really means "If you have an idea what...") what a musician is can you then answer "Is an X a musician?" Is a drummer a musician? Is someone who programs a computer to play music a musician? Is a composer a musician? A composer may not be able to play a note, but they *create* music. I have often suggested that classical musicians are not musicians, they are technicians - they don't create, they interpret. Like actors. Yes, I am very well aware that that is far from entirely true, but for the sake of the point... They are highly skilled technicians. So is a stonemason or a woodcarver. They do what they are told to do. They play the notes, speak the words, make the design that they are GIVEN.

So are they musicians, etc; artists? Is the man on the pneumatic drill a musician? Sounds like that have been incorporated into modern compositions. Is s/he a musician only if they drill to the composer's order? A musician if they are recorded without knowing?

The first question MUST be "What is a musician?"

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:48 PM

I prefer to think what Joe Bloggs in the street thinks. The technical stuff you're arguing about here is irrelevant to him. If you play an instrument to any level you're a musician. If you sing you're a singer.
Walk into any folk club in the land and ask anyone "How many musicians are there in here?" and see how many people include the unaccompanied singers.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 04:04 PM

And Joe Bloggs will give you at least 6 different answers if you ask 14 of him, so he's not exactly a useful oracle here, is he? ;-) JB is pretty much the same where art is concerned - "Ah doan't know mooch abaht art, but ah knows a gud pick-chewer when ah sees it!" And where art is concerned, I confess to being pretty much the same! But I wouldn't trust the opinion of the man in the street about anything. He is, on average (lowest common denominator & all that), usually a bloody idiot!

Why would you prefer to think what someone else thinks, whoever that is? I prefer to think what I think! ;-)

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Andy7
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 04:47 PM

So, what does the suffix '-ician' signify?

Merriam Webster: "specialist; practicioner"

Yourdictionary: "a person engaged in, skilled in, or specializing in (a specified field)"

Other examples are magician (specialising in, or practising, magic), beautician (specialising in, or practising, beauty), mathemetician (specialising in, or practising, mathematics), etc., etc.

So, a musician is someone who specialises in, or practices, music. Not just instrument playing.

An instrument player should therefore be called an instrumentician.

... or maybe an instrumentalist!

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:15 PM

so in conclusion, if you want to call yourself a musician, and doing so gives you pleasure - do it!

life is short.

its not like you called yourself a brain surgeon, and you want to cut someones head open.

you mustn't do that. however being a musician is open to interpretation - and I've seen bloody good musicians die on their arse.
being skilfull doesn't ensure acceptance by an audience.

your vision of yourself as a musician is as good as anyone elses.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:37 PM

Raedwulf, dismiss the masses at your peril! David Cameron did and he lost his job immediately.

'Why would you prefer to think what someone else thinks?' because most of the people I communicate with are the people in the street, the Joe Bloggses, and when I have to communicate with anyone on a higher level I can adjust accordingly. However I've never been taken to task about calling singers singers or instrumentalists musicians until now and I have organised concerts and written about music for many years. ;-)

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:15 PM

@Sol and Ebor: Triangles and drums: most of the orchestral percussionists I have met have done a long hard musical training (and probably happen to play a melody instrument as well, but have just just chosen to play percussion). Your triangle player will probably flit around a vast array of different percussion instruments in the course of an evening's concert. Occasionally, if they are really short they might draft in one of the 2nd violins to play a single (well-placed?) ting on a triangle!
As for singers: yes, the human voice is a fine instrument too. I can think of several singers I know who do not read music, yet are capable of producing fine harmony and polyphonic arrangements without ever being able to write it all down in standard notation. So, yes, singers, are musicians too in my book.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:45 PM

For amateurs it's a BS session. Go crazy on it.

But if a singer wants to turn pro they'll most likely have to join the same union as all the "real" musicians. Usually classed as "vocalist" in the islands and States nowadays.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 07:03 PM

you could join equity.

i was in there for a few years as were most of the midland folkies when Nottingham's Lenton Lane Studios were going - I used to see Jack Hudson, Mick Peat, Roy Harris etc doing extra work on Boon and Peak Practice.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 07:31 PM

But is a bodhran owner a musician?


I'll get me coat...

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 07:52 PM

I've heard it said that anyone who plays an instrument, e.g a fiddle or a guitar or a flute, should call themselves an instrumentalist not a musician.

A friend of mine, a very good fiddler, says disdainfully "An instrumentalist plays an instrument, a musician plays music".

A couple of people have said on this thread that the voice is a musical instrument. Does that make a singer an instrumentalist?

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Andy7
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 03:51 AM

Yes, you could in theory call a singer an instrumentalist, there'd be nothing orthologically or semantically incorrect with that.

But we also have to accept common usage if we wish to make ourselves understood.

Another example ... a bus is powered by a motor. So if I caught the bus to Brighton, I could quite correctly say, "I motored down to the coast".

But if I did say that, you'd assume that I'd driven there in a car; not because my statement was factually incorrect, but because, in everyday speech, the verb 'to motor' has become synonymous with 'to drive a car'.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 03:51 AM

Yes, I believe that the human voice is an instrument too. So, a singer can also be a musician.

However, to me, a musician is someone who is either qualified in music or trained to a certain standard... formally or self taught, it doesn't matter and, perhaps, performs for a living. Not necessarily all three and there are maybe other descriptors.

Personally, I can sing a few songs when it suits and get a tune out of a few instruments. Some better than others. I can also read music reasonably well although I'm slower with the bass lines.

Yet,I feel embarassed to call myself a musician and would rather describe myself as a player(of instuments)and would probably call myself a "singer of songs" rather than a musician if that was my main interest.

Others might think I'm being a bit hard on myself and others in a similar position but just because one can change tyres on a car, check the oil, and do other repairs it doesn't make him or her a mechanic. Nor does putting emulsion and/or paper on your walls make you a painter and decorator.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 03:58 AM

Is the voice an instrument?

Ray

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 04:01 AM

"But we also have to accept common usage if we wish to make ourselves understood. "

If we all did that Mudcat wouldn't exist.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 04:27 AM

"But we also have to accept common usage if we wish to make ourselves understood."
If we wish to understand the art we are all supposed to be involved in, we need to be able to sort out the wheat from the chaff.
We may need to accept the existence of common usage - that doesn't mean to say we have to agree with it
"Folk Music" is in enough trouble by too many people having done that - try asking "what is a folk song" on this forum, then run for cover!
"Is the voice an instrument?"
I believe it is an instrument for producing sound - if it is used to produce musical sounds, it becomes a musical instrument
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 04:48 AM

An instrument is by definition something outside the person using it. You can use your teeth for cutting or grinding, but that does not make them cutting or grinding instruments. Thus, the following are not instrumentalists: singers, whistlers, beatboxers, art-farters ..., whereas tap dancers are.

Arguably though, a singer using a microphone and amplifier can be called an instrumentalist, the instrument not being the voice. –

More importantly: a composer is definitely a musician.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 05:06 AM

Does it really matter ? At the end of the day, it's just labels. How about this as an excercise in logic ? Is a "song", "music" ? If yes, then it would logically follow that a singer is a musician.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to spend my time better by re-acquainting myself with the music of Liam O'Flynn [ RIP ]. Steve's suggestion on that thread of the "Planxty" retrospective CD/DVD set is spot on [ apologies for thread drift ].
Can't help but wonder if this real musician could read sheet music.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 05:17 AM

I believe it is an instrument for producing sound - if it is used to produce musical sounds, it becomes a musical instrument
Jim Carroll.
Iagree

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 06:28 AM

Food for thought. When learning your first instrument, at what point do you become "a musician"?

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Andy7
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 07:25 AM

"Food for thought. When learning your first instrument, at what point do you become "a musician"?"

As my first instrument was the fiddle, it was a long time before anyone would have called me a musician!

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 07:27 AM

"Can't help but wonder if this real musician [Liam O'Flynn presumably] could read sheet music."

His father was a teacher and a fiddle player, his mother came from an extremely "musical" family and she played and taught piano. That background would explain his early introduction to, and interest in, music and as a piano teacher I would venture that at least his mother could read music and most likely, being of that era, his father could too. To date I have not yet encountered one single piano teacher that could not read music. I would be amazed that either parent would have ignored that part of young Liam's "musical" education.

Liked the introduction to the discussion of the word "instrumentalist", which would describe somebody who can play a musical instrument to the most proficient of degrees but who could not be described as a "musician".

Will Fly mentioned Django Rheinhardt earlier in the thread. Rheinhardt did not read music, yet he composed. To do so he required an assistant who notated what he played - without that assistant doing what he did, very little, or nothing, of his work would now remain and whatever did would only be lesser players pale variations of what Rheinhardt played.

If somebody can read music and play a musical instrument, if somebody can read music and sing, then either can be given the sheet music of a piece that they have never, ever seen or heard performed before and play, or sing, that piece exactly as the composer intended it to be heard. They have every right to call themselves musicians. On the other hand if you can only play, or sing, "by ear" you only have the ability to mimic what you have previously heard and irrespective of how good the "performance" there is no way on earth that you could describe yourself as a "musician".

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 07:28 AM

When you first played your party piece to yer grannie?

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 07:55 AM

The above is utter elitist pish. So what's the difference between "mimicing what you have previously heard" and "mimicing" what's written down on a piece of paper ?

"If somebody can read music and play a musical instrument, if somebody can read music and sing, then either can be given the sheet music of a piece that they have never, ever seen or heard performed before and play, or sing, that piece exactly as the composer intended it to be heard".
How can you possibly know that, especially in terms of traditional music ? You give a sight-reader a piece of paper and they will play what's on the piece of paper, which may or may not be by the composer. You seem to totally disregard the concept of individual interpretation.
Amazing to think that Irish traditional music was kept alive and is in the healthy state it is today largely thanks to people who weren't "musicians" because they couldn't, or chose not to learn their native music from a sheet of paper.

Subject: RE: Is a singer a musician?
From: GUEST,Andiliqueur
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 08:15 AM

I was going to agree with Observer's comments yet again but then kenny is right too. I may not play a musical instrument (as I love singing so much I didn't want to distract from this enjoyment and I suppose I am lazy) but my son is an excellent musician, being able to produce a tune from virtually any instrument that he comes across. However he is a classically trained violinist and it took many years to encourage him to play "fiddle' at which point he had to "forget the dots" and all his classical technique. He's done it and it's wonderful to listen to him just play by ear. It has been fascinating reading all your views. Like the definition of Folk Music "Is a singer a musician" is totally debatable!!