BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 10:12 AM

Keith - you....................................



feel free to fill in the blank, because you don't read or reply to what I actually write..

So go on, in as many words as you like, take complete control your script.
Disregard everything you don't want to hear.
Make it say what you want it to say.. because you will always do that, won't you...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 09:38 AM

I did not advocate hostility.
My views were those of your party and every other party and all democracies.
Your views were extreme, not mine.

I do not post excessively and my posts are short.

You do not have the right to post your views unchallenged.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 09:10 AM

Too late, too late was the cry!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 08:54 AM

Please don't let this be about Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 08:00 AM

Keith - I've said it too many times before... and you persist in completely ignoring the point...!!!

It's not the content of what you post, but the sheer quantity and frequency of your posts,
deluging and swamping previously good readable threads..
That is why I consider you such an anti social mudcatter and a massive problem that needs to be addressed...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 08:00 AM

What next bobad? My Dad'd a policeman?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 07:52 AM

That is a pure troll post.

No, yours is a pure troll post.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 07:47 AM

Your views are just those of a few conspiracy nuts.

That diplomacy is better than hostility?
That those who would rather wait for the truth are right?

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 07:46 AM

That is a pure troll post.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 07:42 AM

Keith habitually throttles good discussions, and kills any positive opportunity to learn from other voices.

No. I just challenge the views of you people, and you can not deal with that.

The funny thing is that the views I put are mainstream, which shows how divorced from reality you are out there on the far Left.

On this, my views are the same as those of our government, all our political parties, and all the liberal democracies of the world.
Your views are just those of a few conspiracy nuts.
And I am supposed to be the one killing the discussion!
Ha ha ha.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 07:04 AM

Dave - my reasons here are mostly self interest - I'm sick of one person constantly monopolising and bogging down
the few BS threads I take an active interest in;
threads where I hope to learn from others more experienced and knowledgable than myself - left or right of the divide...

Keith habitually throttles good discussions, and kills any positive opportunity to learn from other voices.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 06:38 AM

Keith's raison d'etre is to protect the honour and good reputation of the good and great of this world - the higher up the tree, the more they are in need of protection - he actually has a sliding scale in which ordinary political perves are less important that those at the top
Good luck in changing that Dave
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 06:15 AM

My Mum is the same, PFR. She needed more care that we could provide even with having meals and carers coming in 3 or 4 times a day so she is now in a lovely care home where there is round the clock care and everything is done for her. We visit at least once every couple of weeks and try to spend some time with her but, as you say, it is very draining. No point in getting frustrated as we know the cause and I can cope with answering the same questions every couple of minutes because she deserves my care and respect.

Not so on here. We do not know the cause and certain posters do not deserve respect. My hat is off to you for trying but I fear you are pissing in the wind.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 06:04 AM

Keith:
From the horses mouth! I will say this once.

http://www.population-protection.eu/prilohy/casopis/29/202.pdf

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2016_08/20160802_140801-cep-first-responders-CBRN-eng.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 06:01 AM

I'd like to be positive and hope Keith is reflecting on his negative impact on mudcat threads,
and willingly trying to curb his excesses...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:57 AM

Dave - My mother's cycle of repetition is on average 3 - 10 minutes.
Her ability to listen and understand is noticably diminishing.
But she does still try to be agreeable, rather than absolutely refuse to listen.
She does accept that she has problems coping, even when she feels there is nothing wrong and we are all getting at her,
and making her upset.

It is severely frustrating and a trial of my strength and patience.
An afternoon with my mother is exhausing and does my head in.
.. and she is one of the two people I most love in this world.

Let's just say it's good training for dealing with mudcat and it's aging members.....

All communication with my mother is verbal, it would be interesting to see how her condition would manifest itself
if she had enthusiastic access to a keyboard and internet forums....???

At least she understands reality enough to still loathe tories...

So, while I'm prepared to continue, juries out on how much Keith is capable of co-operating for our greater good.
Can we see if our little experiment in tolerance in this one thread has any meaningful effect and value...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:57 AM

Why bother humouring this eejit by suggesting he needs an answer Dave ?
Life really is too short
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:39 AM

I have answered. The fact that you will not accept the answer is neither here nor there.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:33 AM

"What mismanagement? "
To describe a terrorist attack of this nature as a "reckless" is to reduce it to not wearing a seatbelt or to using a mobile phone while you are driving
Had it been an attack by a Muslim group there would be no equivocation of this sort
May has had no alternative but to take action, the behaviour of whoever did it has been so blatant
This is a list of mysterious deaths, and all
related to Russia and only one not in Britain.
Stephen Moss, 2003. .
Stephen Curtis, 2004.
Igor Ponomarev, 2006. .
Alexander Litvinenko, 2006. .
Yuri Golubev, 2007.
Daniel McGrory, 2007
Badri Patarkatsishvili, 2008.
Gareth Williams, 2010
Paul Castle, 2010.
Alexander Perepilichnyy, 2012
Robbie Curtis, 2012. .
Boris Berezovsky, 2013.
Johnny Elichaoff, 2014.
Scot Young, 2014.
Matthew Puncher, 2016.
And now the latest one

Two emigré Russians have claimed to be under threat from Russian assasination
Affter fifteen years of these incidents, Theresa got up in parliament and described the Salisbury attack as "reckless"
I suggest you change Russia into "Iran" or "China", or "Cuba" and tell us how "reckless" they would have been then.
Theresa the Tosser appears to be doing a balancing act between the unavoidability of taking action over this possible 16th attack and Britain's financial and political interests
How "reckless" is that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:13 AM

Dave, you mean you can't answer.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:11 AM

Better to use a suit designed not to leak.

Fitted properly it does not.

Better to use a suit designed not to leak.

The suit has to enable movement and work, and to allow the wearer to eat, drink and excrete in a contaminated environment.

A foolproof version has yet to be invented, but with training and practise it is reasonably safe.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:06 AM

Fact? Rumour?Hearsay?

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/03/what-we-know-about-novichok/556148/

The last sentence is a riot.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:05 AM

Out of respect for PFR's request, I have kept civil. I shall say this once only.

Keith, you know my views about you and your attitude. I am not prepared to discuss anything with you at anything other the most cursory level. If you cannot even be bothered looking up what I have already said, that only goes to underline why I do this. Now, politely for the last time,

Kicking off, all guns blazing, is the wrong approach in this and many other situations.
Everyone who says 'highly likely' rather than 'absolutely certain' has doubts.

That is all I have have said and all I have to say to say on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 04:58 AM

"I have been in a CS gas chamber in such kit many times. You know when it leaks. If you fit it correctly it does not."

As I said you would make a good canary. Better to use a suit designed not to leak. Especially if leaks have fatal rather than uncomfortable outcomes

Meanwhile a little background for those that are not totally bored with the fiasco.
https://theconversation.com/novichok-the-deadly-story-behind-the-nerve-agent-in-sergei-skripal-spy-attack-93562

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 04:57 AM

No. If there was mismanagement the other parties would have exposed it.
That is their job.
In fact they all supported what the government did.

That makes Dave's accusation look false.
That he refuses to answer is even more suspicious.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 04:52 AM

"What mismanagement? All the parties support the government's actions."

Non sequitur.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 04:49 AM

I have already gone through my reasons for everything I have posted on here.

Not those.

The subsequent mismanagement of the whole affair by our government is an absolute disgrace.

What mismanagement? All the parties support the government's actions.

Not everyone who has the known facts is convinced so there is an element of doubt.

Who?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 02:56 AM

I have already gone through my reasons for everything I have posted on here. No need to go through it again in the usual repetitive circular way.

PFR - Are you still keeping count so you can let us know when to resume normal service :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 12:58 AM

Ians,
Well you may wish to test such protection in an environment containing an unidentified agent. I do not think I would.

That is what all NATO militaries wear for NBC protection including against nerve agents.
I have been in a CS gas chamber in such kit many times. You know when it leaks. If you fit it correctly it does not.

Those pictures have been around the world. Apart from a few conspiracy nuts, no-one has found them untoward.

Dave,
The subsequent mismanagement of the whole affair by our government is an absolute disgrace.

What mismanagement? All the parties support the government's action.

Not everyone who has the known facts is convinced so there is an element of doubt.

Who?

Steve,
I predict that this story will not run and not run.

Ha ha ha.
It has started a global crisis that is still growing!
As with Labour's anti-Semitism problem and every other issue, I was right all along (notwithstanding all your name calling , abuse and ridicule.)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:50 PM

Start your own lynch mob. Who needs evidence? They're reds and what more do you need!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:37 PM

It's no more than political posturing.

No it's not, it's a clear indication that they all know who did it.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:09 PM

It's no more than political posturing. The West doesn't like the way Putin, in the eyes of his own people, has restored the status and dignity of their nation after they'd been a basket case following the collapse of the USSR. The West is looking for ways to attack and undermine him, and the western nations may well have surprised him by the near-unanimity of their actions. In the scheme of things the actions on both sides don't matter very much. This time next year the numbers of diplomats on both sides will be recovering. That's how it always goes. There's been a lot of confected outrage over what might not even have been an attack on two people - we still don't know what happened in Salisbury. Save the real outrage for Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq, Libya and Syria.
.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:40 PM

Real interesting that major nations(Germany included) , including Trump, have cooperated in kicking out a significant number of Russian 'diplomats'.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 03:09 PM

"‘No way’ nerve agent could escape UK lab?"

How many times have we heard similar denials at the start of a zombie apocalypse movie...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 03:00 PM

As Mandy would say: They would, wouldn't they?

https://www.rt.com/uk/422252-porton-down-lab-chemical-skripal/

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 02:25 PM

"No they do not. The cuffs are sealed by gloves, the legs tied off over boots, and the hood tied off over the respirator.
Military CBW suits seal in the same way."

Well you may wish to test such protection in an environment containing an unidentified agent. I do not think I would. That word seal and suggested method of ensuring it gives me serious misgivings.
My safety training has included using radioactive sources, working in contaminated ground ranging from suspected anthrax sites to chemical contamination, and hazardous atmospheres. So I have some familiarity with the various levels of hazard recognised, although I am far from expert especially on the latest legislation.
Presuming a nerve gas to be lethal through absorption, ingestion and inhalation then only a totally sealed protective suit fits the bill.
If you are rash enough to believe those little white suits, gloves, boots and respirators will do the job all I can say is you'll make a good canary. If you have zero knowledge of the agent being used a thinking person would go for the maximum level of protection. If you have knowledge of the volatility or particulate nature, density of the agent etc. then perhaps lower levels of protection can be employed.
But we are awaiting analysis we are told. If the substance is known, why invite international experts to analyse it? Supposedly we have no idea if it is liquid or solid,or how it reacts to wind, rain, evaporation??? Until this agent is identified and it's complete properties determined, caution would dictate a maximum level of protection. I am afraid for the majority of Joe public, wearing a white paper suit(level5) is regarded as equivalent to a bright yellow fully self contained suit(level1).Existing European directives recognise at least 6 levels of hazard.

The way this story has evolved highlights, for me, some rather glaring inconsistancies even when subjected to the most cursory investigation. My feeling is that the little snack of an unfortunate poisoning is being built up into a multicourse multimediafest. Perhaps the question to be asked is not who? but why?(the hype!) I am convinced it is a distraction or more likely, a means to an end.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 02:01 PM

oops.. "shame to waste it, and not use it in a thread about creative conspiracy theories

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:58 PM

I could link what I found here, but best I start a new thread on an old theme....


Though here's one for bob..

I was going to use this extract to weave into my media link..
shame to waste it in a thread about creative conspiracy theories...

From Sky News entitled

"Jeremy Corbyn 'figurehead of anti-Semitic culture' - Jewish leaders"

https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-figurehead-of-anti-semitic-culture-jewish-leaders-11304618

"On Monday, the Guido Fawkes website revealed the Labour leader is still a member of another Facebook group,
titled "The Labour Party Supporter",
in which members have blamed the attempted murder of Sergei and Yulia Skripal in Salisbury on Israel or Islamic State."

Go on bob - work yerself up into a lather...!!!!!!!

But please try to contain yourself to just concentrating on the inventive conspiracy theory angle..

Wow.. good guido - a conspiracy theory about a conspiracy theory... double points scored by a premier leaugue libertarian nutter wanker..

[a nanker...???]

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:43 PM

Keith's been sitting at his keyboard all day desperately plotting as to how he could dredge up the ould an*is*mit*sm bollix again. It was only a matter of time. So bloody predictable, so off-topic. Don't rise to it, lads.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:37 PM

We are quite clear that Russia is responsible for this act.

Sounds definite to me. Let's watch them spin this now.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:22 PM

Keith - ooh.. don't tempt me...
I've still got to decide if I can be bothered transferring audio off a BBC new's interview I chanced on recording today,
then uploading a link...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:15 PM

Something Corbyn did say.
"I recognise that anti-Semitism has surfaced within the Labour Party, and has too often been dismissed as simply a matter of a few bad apples.
"This has caused pain and hurt to Jewish members of our party and to the wider Jewish community in Britain."

Cheers Jezza.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:14 PM

Didn't see that...
But i did catch another news item which I'd like to refer to in this thread,
but am mulling it over for 2nd thoughts in case of reigniting distracting old thread creep dust ups...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:00 PM

maintaing polite tactful silence is not and never has been the same as 'agreement'..

Many spoke, including Corbyn who supported the government on its actions.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:59 PM

Missed one.
Ians,
The white suits have open cuffs neck,legs and arms.

No they do not. The cuffs are sealed by gloves, the legs tied off over boots, and the hood tied off over the respirator.
Military CBW suits seal in the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:59 PM

"No politician present expressed dissent, including Corbyn."

maintaing polite tactful silence is not and never has been the same as 'agreement'..
which I'd be sure you well know...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:54 PM

Dave,
if they were certain it would move from being very likely to being absolutely sure

May today in Parliament, "We are quite clear that Russia is responsible for this act."
No politician present expressed dissent, including Corbyn.

EU countries plus USA and Canada have expelled diplomats. That is never done on mere suspicion.

PFR,
'alls' a bit dogmaticaly total innit Keith...???

Yes, and I am right about it.

Nice try!

I linked to the procedure and I have had training, though more than 10 years ago.

. Also for any airborne pathogen or gas

It was not.

The area cordoned off had differing levels of protection inside.

Yes. The yellow suits are required for the hot zone, and are removed in the warm zone where less protection is required.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:27 PM

Has our Govt explored the possibility that it might have been China...

Digging a dastardly yellow peril tunnel with a tiny enough exit hole to direct a spray of nerve agent,
that came out just under the park bench in Salisbury...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:20 PM

It will be interesting to see if Maggie May moved from her limp-wristed "reckless" stance to taking up the suggestion that Britain should penalise the many hundreds of wealthy Russians with Russian Government connections, who have taken up residence in London   
It has been suggested that some of these are working for the Russian government as agents and information gatherers
Given the Government's rejection of the suggestion that they should do similar with Assad's representatives, I doubt it - interfering with big business interests seems a bridge too far
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:15 PM

Ians, the tape marks the limit of the warm zone. Outside no protection is required.
Nice try!
      How it works is source, then safe buffer zone securely marked, then safe zone outside. Also for any airborne pathogen or gas you need a wind sock so you know which way to evacuate. Played about in hydrogen sulphide environments often enough to know the procedures blindfold.( one good lung full and you get an instant lesson on how to sit on a cloud and twang a harp) The area cordoned off had differing levels of protection inside. The white suits have open cuffs neck,legs and arms.
Also if you were serious you would not have the people all mixed up together as shown and I would expect to see shower units for decontamination of the suits.
I am afraid either the photograph is poorly shot and the personnel improperly briefed or more likely it was staged by a halfwit.