BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???

Subject: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 09:07 AM

If Russia didn't do it - who did - and why ???


.. and if If Russia did do it - how come it's such a sloppy job ???
Ineptitude, or a deliberate ploy to make the job look amateurish...?????

This is a thread not so much for jumping to hasty convenient conclusions,
but for creative immaginative conspiracy theories,
that might inadvertently get us closer to the truth.....???????????????

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 09:27 AM

What I can't understand is that whoever did it waited so long. I believe Skripal came here after having been exchanged for British double agents in 2010.
And how did the perpetrators carry the nerve agent and smear it on the car door handle without dying immediately themselves? The personnel dealing with the crime scene are wearing extremely protective suits like astronauts. One would have noticed someone dressed like that lurking around the car surely?
It's similar to Litvinenko's killing using polonium. The people who did that would probably die too. The entire place was radioactive afterwards.
I think the nerve agent used was developed by the Russians, and unobtainable here.
Normally, one would want incontrovertible proof before enraging Putin et al. But to me there's no other credible explanation.
What worries me is that it's demonstrating just how few allies we have, and our own defence systems are woeful now. We're just a small nation with no teeth. It's a bit foolhardy to antagonise the Russians without huge provocation. Like poking a lion with a stick.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 09:27 AM

The conspiracy theory that I hear being repeated is that either Putin or his supporters did it, and made it's Russian origins fairly obvious, in order to enhance his image of the 'strong man' prior to the upcoming elections.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 09:46 AM

It was Keith...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 09:48 AM

Well, Porton Down got £48 million out of it for a suspiciously ready expansion plan...just sayin'...
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 09:54 AM

That's possible but I'd have thought he wouldn't have considered the game worth the candle. Western leaders who are ganging up to point the finger at the leadership in Russia either know things that we (including Jeremy Corbyn) don't know or they are being opportunistic in finding an excuse to attack Putin. Don't get me wrong - Putin NEEDS attacking for all sorts of reasons. But let's make those reasons legitimate, and let's apply the "beyond reasonable doubt" measure. Corbyn is being a bit clumsy here. In no time at all (already for all I know) he'll have the Mail branding him a Putin-loving commie.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 09:55 AM

That was to Stanron.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 10:28 AM

Hahaha Steve! Headline of today's Daily Mail:-

CORBYN, THE KREMLIN'S STOOGE

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 10:40 AM

Boringly predictable.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 10:45 AM

If there's definite proof of the Kremlin's involvement I think the government should spell it out to us. It currently has the feel of the whole country rushing to judgement on the back of insufficient information, so, to that extent, I'm with Corbyn, though he could have handled things much better.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:18 PM

One of the things that is puzzling me a bit is why whoever is using a Soviet era poison. Someone on the radio was saying if it was some stolen in the USSR era it would have lost some of its effectiveness due to age. No idea if that is true, and it is quite possible that effect would be smaller if it was kept in 'ideal conditions', but it seems a bit odd if they manufacture today something old and traceable, rather than something more up to date and less detectable, and I am sure such things exist.   The only good rationale would be deniability, as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:22 PM

The other thing where everyone seems agreed but is worth a question: everyone seems to assume he was the target and the daughter is an accidental victim. Do we really know that?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:22 PM

Polonium and nerve agent seem a bit drastic to me. If one must kill people, why not just shoot them at home with a silencer? If the murderers want to identify themselves as Russian avengers, they could leave a short note on the corpses. "Told you so!" or some such. (in Russian of course)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:25 PM

By the way, do we know yet how the poor chap and his daughter are faring? If they survive, they'll need some very high-level protection for the rest of their lives, like Salman Rushdie.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:31 PM

it is sometimes convenient for a government to have a bogey man it unites the country behind the incumbent government.
It has happened many times before

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:38 PM

The conspiracy theory I heard was that this was a false-flag or is being used as one by those stirring up the shit against Syria and Russia . The Salisbury incident creates fevered anti-Russian chemical weapons hysteria in the West after which pro-Western militants in Eastern Ghouta stage a chemical attack on their own people as they did in 2013. Then the US and UK have the excuse they need to bomb Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:00 PM

Are we taling about Russia freed from the yoke of Communism?
They're the good guys now, aren't they!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:48 PM

The government isn't going to reveal its source for the information and why would it as that would likely put lives in jeopardy. These recently synthesized nerve agents leave behind telltale signatures in their breakdown products. I'm sure the "west" has gleaned much information from Vil Mirzayanov who had a top level role in the development and testing of these agents, in violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention to which Russia is a signatory. Mr.Mirzayanov now lives in exile in the US after being charged with treason for revealing the secret chemical weapons program.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:55 PM

The government should reveal its source for the information as that would allow people to check the source out. The international community believing that Iraq had sourced yellow cake from Africa led to the deaths of an estimated million Iraqis .

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:01 PM

"Mr.Mirzayanov now lives in exile in the US after being charged with treason for revealing the secret chemical weapons program.
Lucky old Mr.Mirzayanov considering how some states treat people who do similar, eh Bobad!
THe behaviour of many of the former communist countries have become extremely disturbing over the last few decades - Yugoslavia being one of the worst examples - the re-emergence of fascism being another
The WEst were happy to stand by silently while Russia carried out irts atrocities in Syria and used vetooes to allow the main perpetrator to go unchecked - even to allow them to interfere in Western elections,
Pity it took a terrorist attack on Britain to galvanise them into action
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:19 PM

This is where traditional folksong can lead us to the eternal verities....

who put the bom in the bom bom bom, bombom?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:27 PM

The government should reveal its source for the information as that would allow people to check the source out.

Don't be a bloody idiot - this is spy stuff - you don't seem to have any idea about how this works.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:38 PM

Yes but this is being played out in the full glare of the media (which it didn't have to be) and Theresa May's government is deliberately standing by while the media whips the people into an anti-Russia fest on very selective information. That half-way house, playing it out in public yet not giving us the information (which they may or may not have) we need in order to pin this firmly on Russia, is highly irresponsible. We are being manipulated.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:43 PM

"We are being manipulated."

Well I never! You just cannot trust politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:44 PM

Would it have made more sense to be co-operative rather than confrontational? If It was nothing to do with the Russian government it would be in everyone's interest to work together in tracing the real culprits. Of course that would not make May look like the strong leader she isn't and it would not help Putin enhance his tough guy image.

Cynical? Me?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 03:51 PM

France and Germany were both hedging until they had more info, they have now come out denouncing Russia so obviously they have received information with which they are satisfied. Nobody reveals the extent of their information and its source in this game otherwise those channels will cease to be available.......duh!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 04:25 PM

Innocent until proven guilty is a stance unrecognised by the political class. We went to war in Iraq on the story of weapons of mass destruction, and the expert that said it was a load of bollocks was accused of being a Walter Mitty until he was "offed"( a Walter Mitty clever enough to be recruited to head up Porton Down).We attack Syria with cruise missiles because the White Helmets said the government was using Sarin (yet to be proven) and we still have the MSM repeating their every discredited word.
Have you noticed how all these politicians are very careless with other people's lives. Once upon a time the leader used to lead the troops into battle. Perhaps that custom should return. When forced to recognise that actions have consequences sanity might just prevail, especially when bossman is first above the parapet.
This whole affair is simply ratcheting up tension between Russia and the west. Who or what stands to gain from such provocations? I cannot see how Putin or Russia benefits from this affair and I suspect other players are involved. If Gladio was real, and created false flag attacks then anything is possible. Black and white is too simple.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 04:29 PM

The government has revealed the necessary information to its trusted allies, France, Germany and the US. They are not going to reveal it to you and me and the Russians for obvious reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 04:41 PM

"The government has revealed the necessary information to its trusted allies,"
Maybe, maybe not. So far all that supposedly is known is what the poison is. Who made it? and who delivered it? we would not expect to be told anyway. The Russians could have killed the victims before exchanging them. Exchange is not going to work very well in the future, if there is a suspicion cleaning up will be performed at a later date. It all seems to have been solved far too quickly and cleanly for me to believe a word of it. Maybe in 50 years time the true story will come out.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 04:47 PM

You keep saying that. I can't think of a single "obvious reason" why we can't be told if there is clinching evidence, but I can think of plenty of nefarious "obvious reasons" why they won't tell us. As I said, we're being manipulated and May is letting the hysterical gutter press whip up anti-Russia passion. Which is precisely what she wants.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 04:49 PM

That was to bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 04:57 PM

Putin is doing the same in Russia, Steve. Makes you think there is about to be an election and he wants to gain popular support or something. Oh, hang on...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:01 PM

And how did the perpetrators carry the nerve agent and smear it on the car door handle without dying immediately themselves?

in a glass capsule fired at a distance from an umbrella-like air-gun?
Firearm not contaminated, safe to remove to a safe location and dispose of it. Porton Down probably know, but aren't saying. With Georgi Markov it was a minicule hollow metal pellet filled with sarin fired or jabbed from a brolly. You don't need much (a raindrop would kill a big room) - that's the point of nerve agents.

we're being manipulated and May is letting the hysterical gutter press whip up anti-Russia passion.

The Falklands never did any harm to Maggie - just saying.
Now where can I buy a tin hat & air-raid shelter?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:25 PM

Iraq didn't do Blair much good, nor the rest of us, come to think of it. Nor a million Iraqis...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:33 PM

Extraordinary joint statement from the UK, France, Germany and the US:

“This use of a military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War. It is an assault on U.K. sovereignty and any such use by a state party is a clear violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention and a breach of international law. It threatens the security of us all. We share the U.K. assessment that there is no plausible alternative explanation, and note that Russia’s failure to address the legitimate request by the U.K. government further underlines its responsibility. We call on Russia to address all questions related to the attack in Salisbury. Russia should in particular provide full and complete disclosure of the Novichok programme to the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons.” It concludes: “We call on Russia to live up to its responsibility as a member of the U.N. Security Council to uphold international peace and security.”

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:39 PM

Strong stuff, but none of that is concrete evidence. It wouldn't get you convicted in a court, would it?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:52 PM

The evidence is enough to convince France, Germany and the US but not Steve Shaw. I know who I put my money on.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:08 PM

There is absolutely no need for you to make this personal.

Your repeating mantra seems to be that we must trust our politicians and not ask questions. Really?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:15 PM

Your repeating mantra seems to be that you should be privy to top level classified information - I don't believe the government thinks you're that important.

This gave me a chuckle though: Breaking: First Russian diplomat expelled from the UK:

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:32 PM

Well what kind of top-level classified information might that be that could conceivably give any advantage to Russia? Give us some examples! You are far too trusting of our innocent, straightforward, honest, non-manipulating politicians. Ha. By the way, do you apply the same trust to our politicians on brexit? The vast majority of parliamentarians in this country wanted remain, and, by your measure, we should have trusted them and not asked people who know less than they do to decide in a referendum. How are you on that?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:46 PM

Well what kind of top-level classified information might that be that could conceivably give any advantage to Russia?

Duh.......revealing sources for identifying the agent employed for one.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 07:27 PM

No sources that put people in danger need be revealed, but some hard evidence about the nerve agent and the derivatives from its breakdown, that have been claimed to possess fingerprints as to their precise origin, wouldn't harm anyone. Let's face it. That evidence isn't there. The evidence we've been given is all circumstantial. Stuff like, oh, typical Russian behaviour. Russia has form. They refused to kowtow to a weak prime minister's demand for answers. But the nerve agent has been around for decades, there's some in Porton Down and there's some in a lab in America somewhere. The man who invented the stuff has lived in America for over 20 years. Rogues and gangsters have always managed to get their hands on stuff they shouldn't have and they always will. I think it's more than possible that the Russian state is directly responsible for this. But that wouldn't get you convicted beyond reasonable doubt in a court and the only thing I can think of is that our weak leaders actually want a cold war. Didn't do Thatcher and Reagan any harm. Reread 1984. Nothing keeps you strong with your electorate like a foreign enemy, especially when you are shaky at home.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 07:48 PM

I am 'prepared' to believe that Russia orchestrated these poisonings and others and is not too concerned that they be subtle. Because there is the message, meant to be personal, that you don't "F--k" with Mother Russia, no matter what party is in control. It is emotional. Putin is emotional. If you have any doubt, check out the closeups on him during the opening of the 2014 Olympics in Sochi. And recall the extreme and rather obvious, in retrospect, efforts the Soviets, I mean Russians, went to to inflate their athletes' performances.
We are in a new era of strongmen. Putin, Erdogan, whatever pos is running Poland and Xi in China, and Merdegras in Venezuela. And Wayne LaPierre in NRA. Their solution to extremism is more of same.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 07:57 PM

The head of Putin's secret police hinting that maybe it was the Ukraine who was behind Skripal's poisoning should tell you all you need to know.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 08:06 PM

It tells us that he's probably a prat and very little else, certainly nothing like what we need to know. But that nerve agent has been around for decades and there are phials of it in places beyond Russia, and there are gangsters and mafiosi and plenty of people who hate Russia and...Ok, then, don't listen...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 02:28 AM

When The Beast of Grantham's political career was going down the shitter, she created the Falklands War to save herself. Perhaps this is May's 'Falklands'?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-43343805/russian-exile-skripal-targeted-by-criminal-gangs?SThisFB

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 02:58 AM

Errr, at the risk of repeating myself, it will not do Putin's popularity at home much harm either. On the news last night the reporter in Moscow mentioned that the Russian for 'the woman that spoils it all' is a phrase being bandied about when referring to May.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 03:00 AM

"Duh.......revealing sources for identifying the agent employed for one."
JUST LIKE THE GOOD OLD DAYS
Some people never learn, do they?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 03:12 AM

I think that that is entirely possible. But I'm not desperately scrabbling around for alternatives wacky theories (I'll leave that to the God-squadders :-) ) as it does seem very likely that the Russian state is involved. Too many things simply don't fit. For example, why would Putin threaten the World Cup? Thing is, Russia is just as full of gangsters as anywhere else. It's laughable to suggest that it's impossible that after thirty-odd years of the poison's existence somebody who shouldn't have has got hold of some. It definitely suits Theresa May to be able to look tough and point the finger at Putin. When you've got the Mail and the Express and the Tory party behind you, as well as all those disaffected Blairites who never waste an opportunity to reopen old rifts, you can make your accusations look respectable and you know that Putin's star is so low in the west that no-one will believe his protestations. He knows that too. At the end of the day chucking out diplomats just looks weedy, and any extra sanctions on Russia will be just as weedy. After all, we need their gas. Cheers, Thatcher, for that.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 03:12 AM

That was to BWM.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 03:21 AM

the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War

er - Georgi Markov - Bulgaria - I thought sarin was a nerve agent.

The difference, I assume, is that Gerogi was actively advising the secret services. Whereas in this episode the spy had long been debriefed and had been in prison in Russia. This would leave one to think there is a measure of spite involved.

Given the gravity of the accusation, I think we have to take it on trust that the finger pointing has a whole body of evidence behind it. Like the particular trace elements (or lack of them) in the residues of the nerve agent. Lets call it the fingerprint on that finger wot is pointing!
You can construct many conspiracy theories around it when you have only what the gov feed you and the papers (you so despise) re-interpret. It is a pleasant game but it ain't evidence ether. PAL!

Let's start with the one that says if Russia wanted to be the honest broker, and the substance came from their labs, they could cooperate with the investigation and reveal it was given to (say) Ukraine during the Soviet era. Even if Putin wants to huff and puff in his strong man pose, it serves him nought if Russia is not implicated.

And we could fall back on the "who has form?" stratagem.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 03:33 AM

Much as it irritates me to say it, Corbyn appears to be the only MP to have made any kind of sensible statement about culpability, or lack of it.
Now our gas supply from Russia is in jeopardy, and oh dear, that pipeline through Syria to bring Quatari gas to Europe has not happened.
As Laurel and Hardy would say:"a fine old mess"

Those dots appear everywhere. They probably join up eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 05:21 AM

Bobad thinks it’s all a jolly old game of spy craft , leave it to the craftsmen of the spying trade .Bloody civvies never so much as read Robert Ludlum should keep their idiotic opinions to themselves , arf arf .

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 06:38 AM

We've allowed Russia to obtain an entirely illegitimate toehold in this country by allowing our financial institutions to launder billions of Russian oligarchs' money. Successive governments have connived in that. Theresa May desperately needs to be seen to be acting tough. So she does that time-honoured and entirely ineffectual thing, boots out a few diplomats. She could hit Russia a lot harder by exposing and staunching the money-laundering. A slight hitch there would be that some of the those guys give money to the Tory Party. Well who'd have thought it. And Mr Red, it's looking increasingly like your claim and bobad's that we should trust our agencies and accept that they they know summat we don't know but wot they can't tell us is just about the biggest conspiracy theory of all. Saying that Russia probably dunnit cos it's wot they're like and they're Reds anyway and wot more do you need simply doesn't wash, and thank God there are a few sane and calm voices being heard today, Corbyn's for one. And have a look at Simon Jenkins in today's Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 06:42 AM

If you accuse me of doing something I didn't do, then give me 24 hours to explain myself, I'd tell you to sod off. Discuss...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 06:55 AM

the problem is I suppose that our government very obviously abused our trust over the WMD affair. How can we possibly believe them, uncritically?

In America, they seem to take this stuff in their stride. Daniel Ellsberg showed them the government was lying to them about Vietnam - they were bound to lose. Nevertheless the war went on for another 7 years, presumably so the armaments industry could screw a bit more loot out of the situation.

Lennie Bruce said - I'm from New York. Even when I was a kid, I was hip to corruption. I knew the mayor was corrupt, the police...I thought I was probably corrupt.

Somehow they still respect the edifice of government.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 06:57 AM

Senator John McCain has the measure of the man: "Vladimir Putin is a thug and a murderer and a killer and a KGB agent."

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 07:15 AM

And if Putin was taken to court on those charges after a leading politico had said that, Putin would be discharged as there could then be no possibility of a fair trial. Thing is, if we want to see justice done we have to follow the processes that make our justice systems work. Standing up and asserting yourself as judge, jury and hangman subverts those processes. Even though I might agree with the good senator.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 07:51 AM

I would add gangster to that list.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 08:01 AM

Kremlin’s campaign of bullying is designed to smooth the path for more interference in the Balkans and Baltic states, no mistake!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 08:08 AM

Well he may be all those things but we deal with him. We also sell dozens of fighter jets to the Saudis who are going to do quite a lot of harm with them in someone else's sovereign territory, the sort of thing we're currently complaining about in this country apropos of Russia. Every stitch of clothing I'm wearing today was made in what's about to become the greatest dictatorship in the history of the world. And we're desperate to make deals with Donald. Funny world, innit.

And Boris is saying that Russia's involvement is "overwhelmingly likely." In the words of Mandy Rice-Davies...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 10:42 AM

How about, the whole affair was carried out in the uk and not the US to remind Donald Trump about what happens to guys who betray the Russians.
Trump has not responded in person to the atrocity .... not like him, not even his "Thoughts and prayers"
If it had been in the USA and he hadn't reacted personally where would that have left him
As many have said in this thread it was done in a manner that gained the maximum publicity
Just a thought

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 11:06 AM

Have we ruled out the outlandishly entertaining [if only it were a hollywood spy movie] plot
that either pro or anti Trump USA Black ops [with or without USSR complicity]
did it to stir the world up a bit...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 12:05 PM

A film waiting to happen!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 12:30 PM

I like the conspiricy theory submitted that has it as a warning shot across Trump's comb-over.

But methinks they ** would stop short of Twitler and go for the soft underbelly like the Kushner fella. Even then - who can predict what his Hairness does?

** substitute whatever national government or Mafioski that takes your fancy.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 02:53 PM

It's all become rather tiresome now.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 04:08 PM

Ok b3l - We now need a plot for the sequel and a title that we can add to for the sequel
We need a Tele Savalas / Yul Bryner types for casting in Mudcat Movies + Office furniture (no casting couch allowed)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 04:30 PM

Tavarik Iains, The Russia State has been proven guilty.
Putin's response to this incident - "So what".


I understand his reasoning. Beyond this UK incident the Russian State attitude in justifying the hacking of most of the USA nuclear and power grid facilities to go critical is also justified in Putin's eyes. After all Russia is using the Stuxnet Mt Olympus coding that was invented by the US NSA and 'inadvertantly' ended up showing up in a Russian Firm. We blamed Israel but Russia blames us.

In this hot and cold war, Russia has its finger on the switch.
For now they are playing 'proportional response'.
They also have their finger on the US President.

It really is a serious Spy vs Spy real life cartoon.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 04:48 PM

"The Russia State has been proven guilty."

Some of us would prefer evidence to backup such assertions.
As yet there are merely unfounded allegations.
Unless of course Donuel has a hotline to God. This I feel is unlikely.
Therefore he must be a purveyor of false news.
Tsk, Tsk!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 05:02 PM

Some of us would prefer evidence to backup such assertions.
As yet there are merely unfounded allegations.

The evidence has satisfied the UK, the US, France and Germany, I don't think they're too concerned that it hasn't satisfied you.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 05:27 PM

The "evidence" has "satisfied" a bunch of leaders with agendas, not whole nations. Appeals to authority are not only unimpressive, they are intellectually derelict. Bonzo has a point: the whole thing is getting very tedious. Some politician or other is going to find another dramatic angle to keep this yarn alive. Watch this space.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 05:44 PM

British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said Friday it was “overwhelmingly likely” that Russian President Vladimir Putin was behind the poisoning of a Russian former spy,

words, words, words.

"overwhelmingly likely" is supposition, not fact. What on earth is it supposed to mean, overwhelmingly likely is still likely. It is also equally unlikely. It is not certainty. I would expect the foreign secretary to be a little more sure of himself before gobbing off.
I would not expect evidence to be publicised, but I would expect a definite statement that they have proof. Likely simply does not cut it.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 06:51 PM

Its funny to me that Iains uses God as the ultimate authority of facts and truth. He is a holy hoot!

I'm on the Bill Mahre side of that equation and had a similar upbringing.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 07:08 PM

As a matter of fact, I absolutely and macro-solidly agree with Iains on this. I have an appointment with a therapist in the morning, and, believe me, the bastard charges double on Saturdays... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 05:23 AM

THIS killing seems to have been largely overlooked in all this
There was another 'mysterious' Russian death back in 2013 - "it's getting to be a habit with us", it seems.
Strange (not really) how those most ready to leap of the "antisemitism", "misogyny, sexual harassment and rape", "sleeper for a foreign power" and all the other politically generated band-waggons demand "proof" before they "hear some evil" about their own idols!!
Murders, (even mass ones), and human rights atrocities that are taking place daily will all be forgotten, as so many have, when it suits politics and big business for them to be so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:11 AM

From the place the Dr. Kelly came from.(the man who thought the dodgy dossiers on WMD were extremely dodgy.)

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/of-a-type-developed-by-liars/

“Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive”

Déjà vu??????????????????????????/

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:22 AM

Excellent read, Iains. Don't worry - we'll resume battle another time... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:59 AM

We do agree on a few things Steve.
Another interesting scribble:


https://www.globalresearch.ca/modern-world-toxicity-casualties-toxic-combustible-insulation-toxic-nerve-agents-by-design-who-can

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 07:10 AM

SOMEONE ELSE waiting for the knock on the door
Jim Carroll

From The this morning's Irish edition of Sunday Times
RUSSIA HAS FINGERS IN ALL SECTORS OF IRISH LIFE’
John Mooney
Russia’s overseas intelligence service has sent agents to Ireland to spy on people involved in politics, economics, business and technology using diplomatic accreditation provided by the Department of Foreign Affairs, according to Irish intelligence sources.
The security services and military believe the SVR, which is the successor to the KGB, also sent an agent to Dublin to cultivate contacts under the guise of working in the media.
Garda Headquarters believes the SVR, which provides information to the Kremlin, is actively developing “sources” in all sectors of Irish life including politics, the media, technology and civic groups with a view to influencing political debate on Russia.
It is also involved in the dissemination of pro-Russian propaganda and encouraging nationalistic feel¬ings among Russian people living in the Republic.
Gardai have mounted at least one operation against the Russian agency, prompting it to withdraw a senior SVR officer from Ireland when his cover was detected three years ago. The SVR officer and a woman purporting to be his wife had been provided with diplomatic accreditation to work at the Russian embassy on Orwell Road in Rathgar, Dublin.
The SVR officer was deemed an “undeclared intelligence officer” by the government, which was briefed by intelligence services.
Yury Filatov, the Russian ambassador to Ireland, refused to comment on the activities of Russian spy agencies in Ireland last week.
Filatov described an article which appeared in last week’s edition of The Sunday Times on the activities of Russian intelligence as an attempt to manipulate the Irish public’s view of his country.
The ambassador described the article as propaganda, whose publication was linked to the escalating row between Britain and the Kremlin over a nerve-agent attack in Salisbury on a former Russian spy and his daughter.
Russia is regarded as a threat to Ireland’s national security as it has at least two secret agencies actively operating on Irish soil, according to security sources. The garda and military believe the GRU, the military intelligence branch of the Russian army, is also running covert operations in the Republic.
Russia sought permission from the Department of Foreign Affairs to open a section for its FSB security services, but the government refused. It has allowed the Russian administration to send a colonel and a captain to work as defence attaches at its Irish embassy.
The foreign department yesterday said it was not policy to comment on such matters, when asked if it had refused permission for the FSB to operate in Ireland. A spokesman said it was not in the public interest to answer such questions.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 07:33 AM

The plot thickens with a predictable allegation of a US false flag operation based on allegations of unnamed scientists.

Even Steve is gullible at times and prone to readily accept an Iain link. It says more of the quality of propaganda than Steve's wisdom.

A skeptic would at least withhold judgement.

In the words of a Brit; "The opposite of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge".
Steven Hawking

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 07:46 AM

I think I will keep saying excuse me:


http://www.bitterrootbugle.com/wp-content/gallery/patriots/black-sheep-heading-upstream.gif

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 07:54 AM

Patriotism???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 07:57 AM

Don't be silly, Donuel. I seek out multiple sources and I have stated that in my opinion the odds are on Russian involvement. While I still think that, to me it's looking more doubtful by the day in this instance. At the very least there appears to have been a rush to judgement and it's notable how the drip-feed of "evidence" has dried up. Iains' source is one of many I've resorted to and I'm constantly on guard against confirmation bias. In fact, I dislike Putin and his regime intensely and the last thing I would do is strain to find ways of letting him off any hook. As for "accepting an Iains link" I can assure you that I read it end to end then spent a quarter of an hour looking up the author's credentials. If anyone's gullible, it's you for dismissing a piece of writing because it's an "Iains link." By all means dismiss it because it's shite if that's what you think. That's what I do with his Express and Mail and Guido links, once I've read 'em. Right?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 08:23 AM

I note that those demanding sources for the government's allegations are more than willing to accept the word of someone who cites an unnamed source for his information, information that earth shatteringly splits hairs in uncovering that some (one?) investigators think that on evidence it is of a type developed by Russia not that it was produced by Russia. This coming from someone who says he doesn't see the motive for it being Russia - he can't be that stupid can he?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 09:28 AM

Happy Putin Election Day'

A great baaa baaa Thud...will rise over Russia tomorrow Iains.

"Its not who people vote for, its who counts the votes that counts most"
Vladimir Putin

You can goad the Brits so far and that's all.
Churchill's original War Cabinet wanted appeasement.
Then the people rallied against the threat.
All it takes is a leader to define and demand a fight
against the foe on the beaches, the fields, the streets and their computers.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 09:36 AM

There is a constant narrative being fed to us all. The purpose is to demonise Russia. Why is that do you think? Putin makes a lousy role model for an angel, but conversely he is not the devil incarnate either. His security forces act no differently to others. In fact there is far more in the public domain to make the CIA out to be far greater troublemakers than the KGB ever managed to be.
This constant poisonous drip feed of unsubstantiated rumour is designed to manipulate us all into supporting yet another major war in order the military industrial complex can keep up the profit margins.

Interestingly Kennedy, in one of his last speeches:
“The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it."
and:
"For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations. Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed."

He was shot shortly after.

Previously Eisenhower warned:
"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."

Its about time the citizenry became alert and knowledgeable methinks!
Who is deep state batting for I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 10:05 AM

"The purpose is to demonise Russia."
Same with Syria of course!!
Pity we've all got teles and work out for ourselves what's happening for ourselves
We really aren't all sheep Iains - just some of us who choose to be
Let's face it - we'll never be given the full fact of this if our 'betters' decide we don't need to know
It's far more interesting and rewarding to work out why this is happening and why the various governments are reacting the way they are
THese ongoing incidents are manifestations of a society past its sell-by date and in decline - a battle for control
Russia and the former Communist states are the new kids on the block, fighting for world political and economic dominance in a system that has gone international
Interference in other nations' elections and economies is now par for the course.
Basically, they are doing nothing the U.S. hasn't been doing since the end of W.W.2., only they don't have the excuse of "fighting for freedom and democracy any more"
Nor have they the passive support that the U.S. once had to get away with what they dod.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 10:14 AM

The purpose is to demonise Russia.

No need to demonize Russia, Putin does an admirable job of it himself.

A short list of Putin's victims:

Sergei Yushenkov
Paul Klebnikov
Alexander Litvinenko
Anna Politkovskaya
Natalia Estemirova
Sergei Magnitsky
Stanislav Markelov and Anastasia Baburova
Boris Berezovsky
Boris Nemtsov

These are just the most prominent victims, there are others like Vladimir Kara-Murza who survived two poisoning attempts and several who "accidentally" fell out of windows in tall buildings or suffered unexplained "heart attacks" while in jail.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 11:04 AM

Anything you can do I can do better............


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Activities_Division

Keep trying!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 11:11 AM

Lol, totally false equivalence, nice try though.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 11:55 AM

The only point I make is that you cannot believe any of the bastards.
Where the truth lies is anybodies guess. However it does seem to me that manipulation is the name of the game and I do not like to think that I am being manipulated.
They say that history is written by the winners. Perhaps it is necessary to ask how they became winners. In this digital age the most convincing lies actually create history in realtime.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 12:23 PM

We are being manipulated, though it's instructive to see how the voices of doubt are gaining ground while the finger-pointers' imagination can only run to wheeling out an increasingly-shrill Boris (that paragon of truthfulness and carefully-chosen words) and to try to convince us that it could only have been Russia, with absolutely no new information for us. On the latter point, my personal conspiracy theory is that there isn't any.

To Donuel and bobad: yer man in Iains' link, who is absolutely not my kind of bloke by the way, knows no more about this than you or I do. But he is pointing to the time-honoured, devious ways in which politicians manipulate us using words. In that regard he is doing us a valuable service. It's about time that anti-Russian people started to see that people who cast doubt on Russia's involvement in this are not doing it because they're pro-Russian. We just want the truth, that's all. Or at least we want stuff that's beyond reasonable doubt. We have a long way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 12:34 PM

anti-Russian people

Correction, anti-Putin people (speaking for myself of course).

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:19 PM

The BBC photoshopping Corbyn's picture to make him look more Russian is the latest twist in the manipulation game. They deny it of couse but it looks pretty obvious there was some 'adjustments'. Like putting it over a background of th Kremlin. Do they think people will not notice?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:22 PM

No, "anti-Russian" is likely right .Or most probably, overwhelmingly likely to be right should I say.All the evidence points to it – although I’m not going to disclose the nature or the source of that evidence . As sure as Carlesberg is probably the best lager in the world, Steve Shaw is likely to be correct .

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:27 PM

My last comment was in reply to Bobad . DtG's message about the BBC got in the way .Where is the pic of a photoshopped Corbyn - any link?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:31 PM

I see it now : https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/bbc-russian-corbyn-photoshop/

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:32 PM

I definitely meant anti-Russian. It's a Western tradition that predates Putin by many decades.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:32 PM

It's on t'interweb. Mr Google is your friend :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 01:32 PM

100!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 02:53 PM

I'm absolutely pro Russian people...

I just happen to think their and our political & military leaders, intelligence agencies, and media are absolute deranged arseholes...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 03:32 PM

I think Putin and his gofors are great practitioners of the "Who are you going to believe: Me or your lyin' eyes?" school of controversy.

Viz their continuing use of the un-uniformed Russian soldiers currently maintaining the Ukrainian 'civil war'.

I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop from the Netherlands on account of their planeload of dead citizens shot down over Ukraine in the Malaysian Airlines incident.

One thing they can get out of the current poisoning fracas is learning how far along their opponents are at teasing out the technology for detecting and perhaps counter-acting their chemical weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 04:00 PM

"I'm absolutely pro Russian people..."
Me too - I always have been
Great company - even though they could always drink me under the table
Another sign of a deteriorating system is when its supporters invent terms like "fake news" to explain what's happening
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 04:01 PM

"It would be ungrateful of Donald Trump not to send a kind word to Putin, who invested far more time and effort on Trump’s election than he has on his own."

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 04:08 PM

You know, I think this is the only thread I have seen where everyone seems to agree about something. Shame Keith is away. I'm sure he would disagree:-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 04:38 PM

I think it's very important to not let anti-Russia sentiment cloud the thinking on this.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 04:53 PM

it is a possibilty that it could be MI5, who benefits... the uk government they then have a convenient bogeyman to divert people attention from other matters. of course i cannot prove it but neither is there any proof it was russia

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 05:22 PM

Oh good Christ here come the conspiracy theories.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 05:28 PM

The chief conspiracy theory is that Russia dunnit and well they're reds so what evidence do you need! Thing is, that one came first, which makes every other evidence-innocent notion that follows it a "conspiracy theory." Meself, I fink it woz God wot dunnit...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 05:33 PM

I haven't detected any anti-Russian sentiment here but I have detected virtue signalling.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 05:37 PM

Speak English.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 05:43 PM

Steve, I'm guessing you're unfamiliar with Google. See if you can click here

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:23 PM

I'm very familiar with the fact that he's your bosom buddy, Jeri. Shall we just leave it there, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:23 PM

You got a 1 stuck in your link which muddies the waters Jeri so to make it simple:

Urban Dictionary: Virtue Signalling

To take a conspicuous but essentially useless action ostensibly to support a good cause but actually to show off how much more moral you are than everybody else.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:31 PM

Well if that's the definition of that uber-clever little phrase, I'm afraid it means that you don't understand the thrust of this thread. Well, actually, you've revealed that in spades already: "I hate Russia so whatever anyone says about Russia that's bad must be true." Thing is, bobad, some of us are trying to have a grown-up discussion free of anti-Russian prejudice. I invite you to join us.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:46 PM

Yet more virtue signalling from Shaw. He is an adult, you see, and any one who disagrees with him is prejudiced and thus morally inferior.

For the morally superior amongst us, my father was born in Russia as were both my wife's parents.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:53 PM

Er, big deal. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 06:55 PM

I find it surprising that the BBC should photoshop Corbyn. Could they have been lent on? He is the only major politician to have queried the accepted mantra of "blame Putin for everything, even the weather". I detest Corbyn, but I find it very instructive the way he is
being "marginalised" both by the majority party, many of his own party and the mainstream media. Seems parliament is inhabited by many not so useful idiots.
Brexit is a far more important topic yet is being pushed totally off the agenda by supposed Vlad the lad, who seems to have inherited the worst character traits of both Rasputin and Vlad the impaler, if everything said about the man is to be believed.
I wonder if the PM and Boris are merely puppets? and if so, who is pulling the strings? It seems to me that one false flag event in the wrong place could make the assassination of the Grand Duke seem merely a lover's tiff in comparison to a modern war in europe. Modern wars now put civilians in the front line. A nice war is one way of guaranteeing limits to growth of population. Do you consider yourself a useless eater? Pretty sure them people upstairs do. Is the reset button about to be pushed?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 07:27 PM

Jezza is the leading doubting voice in the country. He's stuck to his guns despite the attacks on him from all sides. I don't know why you detest him. I understand fully anyone who dislikes his politics, for sure. There's plenty about him that worries me to the core, and I won't be joining Momentum any time soon. But why would you detest a man who has no ego, is diffident in the extreme and who is unspun and as straight as a die? So do you feel threatened by him, and, if so, why?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 10:22 PM

"The nerve agent that poisoned the Russian spy Sergei Skripal was planted in his daughter’s suitcase before she left Moscow, intelligence agencies now believe.

Senior sources have told the Telegraph they are convinced the Novichok nerve agent was hidden in the luggage of Yulia Skripal, the double agent’s 33-year-old daughter.

They are working on the theory that the toxin was impregnated in an item of clothing or cosmetics or else in a gift that was opened in his house in Salisbury, meaning Miss Skripal was deliberately targeted to get at her father."

The Telegraph

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 10:32 PM

That legless yarn is four days old. A little while ago you were ridiculing somebody else here for their conspiracy theories. So your Torygraph conspiracy theories are good but those of others are crap. Nice work.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 06:04 AM

"Senior sources have told the Telegraph they are convinced"

Well I am not!
I do not believe in father christmas, or the tooth fairy either.

"Senior sources" = A feeble attempt to convince the masses that the source has credibility. Of such devices is made the onward march of propaganda.
We are now importing foreign experts to confirm the source of the poison-no doubt it comes in a sack with a visiting card enclosed.
Another pathetic attempt, publicised in the daily wail, to add momentum to the current fairy tale.
Meanwhile Vlad the lad is re-elected with a huge majority, naval forces gather in the Med, and brexit draws ever nearer.

Is real news being buried by this poisoning distraction?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 06:19 AM

Is real news being buried by this poisoning distraction?

Maybe the removal of free school meals from thousands of disadvantaged children and buying the DUP vote on that by saying it will not apply in Northern Ireland.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 06:53 AM

All the talk on the TV this morning is about childhood obesity. Maybe the removal of free school meals is evidence of our government's concern over child health.

Steve you debunk theories you dislike. What do you think actually happened in Salisbury. Do you think that no one was poisoned? That it was not done by Putin? That it was not done by anyone from Russia? Did our government do it to discredit Russia or bury bad news? You seem quite sure about what it was not. What do you think it was?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 07:02 AM

Maybe the removal of free school meals is evidence of our government's concern over child health.

Aah, of course. That must be it. Looking forward to the next phase of the Tory child care package now. Sending kids up chimneys and to the mills to ensure they get plenty of exercise.

Are you spectacularly good at irony Stanron or are you really stupid enough to believe what you just said?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 07:24 AM

Very convenient that a doctor and nurse just happened by when the poisoning occurred.
Very convenient that Porton Down is about 8 miles from Salisbury.
Very convenient that Porton Down is probably the only place in the UK where the poison could be analysed so quickly and definitively.
matey boy Skripal once worked there also.
If Russia wanted to send a message, the word would soon get out that certain persons no longer breathed. The very public and unique nature of both the poisoning of the polonium kid and Sergei Skripal and his daughter simply would not be necessary. Also leaving a trail a mile wide does not seem over clever-deliberately careless in fact.
Everyone shouts it was russia than done it, yet no one yet states that they have proof, merely a lot of shouting designed to look like proof if only subjected to cursory examination.
I guarantee we will hear of those nasty russians and syrians using chemical warfare in the very near future. Especially now public opinion has been massaged in the right direction.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 08:18 AM

I guarantee we will hear of those nasty russians and syrians using chemical warfare in the very near future.

I guess documented proof of the use of both sarin and chlorine gas against Syrian civilians is a false flag to apologists like you.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 08:34 AM

That was completely unjustified, Stanron. I don't know any more than you do what happened in Salisbury and every post I make on this topic expresses uncertainties and doubts and the need for real rather than circumstantial evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 08:45 AM

"documented proof of the use of both sarin and chlorine gas against Syrian civilians is a false flag to apologists like you."

The same sort of "documented proof" proving the Russians are poisoning spies.

Meanwhile back at the ranch the sales of the military industrial carry on expanding.

Gotta have an enemy to justify/ all these sales!

I cannot offer proof to justify my way of thinking, but then proof to offer a counter view is also unavailable.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 09:31 AM

In need of light relief in these troubling times...???

Atomic Blonde (2017)

"An undercover MI6 agent is sent to Berlin during the Cold War to investigate the murder of a fellow agent
and recover a missing list of double agents."

A cracking good old style grimy spy yarn packed with action, intrigue, paranoia, and nudey ladies..
all to a thumping Berlin 1980s soundtrack beat...

I watched it last night - well worth a few quid - and hardly more far fetched than present reality....

"They found a Russian bullet in his skull - it must have been the Russians...!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 09:41 AM

False News
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-chemicalweapons/chemical-weapons-watchdog-found-sarin-used-in-march-syria-attack-sources-idUSKBN1C91XJ
MORE
MORE
MORE
CHEMICALS USED 16 TIMES
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-warcrimes/syrian-government-forces-used-chemical-weapons-more-than-two-dozen-times-u-n-idUSKCN1BH18W

"Infamy, infamy - they've all got it in for me"
How long ar holocaust deniers going to ignore these reports?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 09:50 AM

"How long ar holocaust deniers going to ignore these reports?"
TWERP!!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 10:43 AM

Back to your abusive behaviour Iains - it didn't take long
These are researched and pretty well verified occurrences - if you have any evidernce to teh contrary apart from your Kenneth Williamsish protestations of an international plot, please provide
Otherwise - you are denying the mass murder by illegal means of civilians - there's enough of them to be deserve the description of 'holocaust'
Your use of Trumpist 'Fake News' has worn somewhat thin
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 11:53 AM

If you want to act the fool do not be so surprised when you get treated as one. Simples! As they say. There is no fool like an old fool.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 12:38 PM

"There is no fool like an old fool."
Bacck in uit comfort zone and safe from the adults then
There is something particularly inhuman about denying the mass murder of civilians by putting it down to 'fake news'
One of the problems today's mass-murderers is that everything they do is public
Are you seriously suggesting that eye-witness reports by MÉDECINS SANS FRONTIÈRES , HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH and AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL are all part of a massive smear campaign against Russia and her allies?
Any moron can defend atrocities by just denying them - at least David Irving made an effeort to gover up tens of millions of deaths - you don't even bother.
Please don't disappoint me by responding to this with anything other than vacuous abuse - the betting shop closes in an hour!"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 02:40 PM

luckily I wrote a song about this very subject a short while ago.


https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/im-a-homicidal-maniac-working-for-the-kgb

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 03:46 PM

Good song Al.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 04:17 PM

Ill second that Al its soulmate B o H M is appreciated anytime ive been allowed to sing it

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 05:49 PM

Putin sure as shootin has been in power
longer than Stalin.
Vladimir is glad he's here hopin
he'll beat big bad Joe,
By touchin his opponents and
leave em nerve dead or crawlin.
Yup he's a megalomaniacal whatever
and we'd be glad to see him go.

kudos Al.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 06:46 PM

Interview with Irwin Cotler of the Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights who was himself a victim of Putin's "hospitality": Culture of Impunity.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 07:26 PM

To be fair America kind of hypno-hacked themsleves with a UK Cambridge Analytica company back by US Mercer money and Bannon policy, all directed in manipulating 50 million Face book subscribers who were targeted and secretly hacked.

Russia was not the sole cause of Bexit and Trump. So were consevative corporate billionaires. This modern James Bond plot is invisible to many because they can't see the forest because there are trees in the way.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cambridge-analytica-channel-4-expose-facebook-users-monday-night/

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 08:03 PM

I'm going to try to remember the term "virtue signalling" although I'm confident that if it is used in too blatent a context it will call for a reverse blast of some kind of 'blame labelling'. It all falls under the term I'm hearing a lot: "code switching" which means to me the familiarity and use of modern cultural argots.

Meanwhile, I yield to none in my love of Russian culture, but Russians have their ways. I worked with a Russian for a couple of years and found for him the poem that got Osip Mandelstam sent to the Gulag.

The Stalin Epigram

Our lives no longer feel ground under them.
At ten paces you can’t hear our words.

But whenever there’s a snatch of talk
it turns to the Kremlin mountaineer,

the ten thick worms his fingers,
his words like measures of weight,

the huge laughing cockroaches on his top lip,
the glitter of his boot-rims.

Ringed with a scum of chicken-necked bosses
he toys with the tributes of half-men.

One whistles, another meows, a third snivels.
He pokes out his finger and he alone goes boom.

He forges decrees in a line like horseshoes,
One for the groin, one the forehead, temple, eye.

He rolls the executions on his tongue like berries.
He wishes he could hug them like big friends from home.

My co-worker read it over and sead: "If I am Stalin, for sure I send him to Gulag".

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 07:34 AM

Why does this not surprise me in the slightest

The government just tried (and failed) to discredit inconvenient new evidence in the Russian spy case

I have no idea whether Russia was involved. I suspect, purely going on Putin's record as a megalomaniac, that if he did not actually approve it, he was happy that it built up his image just before the election. The subsequent mismanagement of the whole affair by our government is an absolute disgrace.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 07:55 AM

hey nonny no


https://www.globalresearch.ca/boris-johnson-issues-completely-new-story-on-russian-novichoks/5632684

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 08:27 AM

Global research = Russian Billionaire
"No" more than "noony", I'd dat
It's about the fifth time I've asked you why the world has fallen fior all this "fake news"
The fact that you have no answer indicates that you don't believe your atrocious holocaust-denying bullshit any more than anybody else does and are just riding it for attention
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 08:36 AM

The subsequent mismanagement of the whole affair by our government is an absolute disgrace.

Please give an example of the mismanagement you refer to.
It has been referred to the OPCW who have taken samples for independent testing.
131 people possibly exposed to the poison are being monitored.
Salisbury is being decontaminated by the best experts we have.
What would you have done differently?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 08:38 AM

Fuck off Keith. Keep your shit on one thread instead of trying to contaminate all of them.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 08:43 AM

I've watched enough spy movies to posit this spin on the story...

Father and daughter used their old network of contacts to steal and smuggle some of the nerve stuff in for Porton Down...
Then unfortunately.. big oops... accidental spillage while waiting in a pub to hand the parcel over....???????????

MI6 - "Oh dear.. what do we do, we've been caught with our trousers down..
I know lets blame Russia and hope no one asks too many awkward questions...????"

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 08:45 AM

"Oh! What A Tangled Web We Weave When First We Practice To Deceive"

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 08:27 AM

Global research = Russian Billionaire
"No" more than "noony", I'd dat
It's about the fifth time I've asked you why the world has fallen fior all this "fake news"
The fact that you have no answer indicates that you don't believe your atrocious holocaust-denying bullshit any more than anybody else does and are just riding it for attention
Jim Carroll

Cant wait to see Iains reply to this latest piece of gibberish

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 08:54 AM

""No" more than "noony", I'd dat"
Liverpool back-slang !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 09:21 AM

Dave,
Fuck off Keith

You stated, " The subsequent mismanagement of the whole affair by our government is an absolute disgrace."

It is perfectly reasonable to ask to what you refer Dave.
Why be so nasty?

Please give an example of the mismanagement you refer to.
What would you have done differently?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 09:40 AM

Please give an example of the mismanagement you refer to

Seeing as you are being so polite.

Please fuck off Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 09:49 AM

Oh well, this thread was working well until the usual suspects started displaying their usual antagonisms, too bad.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 09:51 AM

I do not understand why you are refusing to join in civil discussion or why you think dirty words and playground name calling is acceptable in a serious thread.

I hope some action is taken.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 10:00 AM

Bobad. the thread was working very well until 20 Mar 18 at 08:36 AM. We can draw our own conclusions.

Keith. I happily joined in the very civil discussion until you started with your usual bollocks. I have told you many times in the past that I think you are a fucking idiot. Many people on here, including some moderators, think you are a fucking idiot. You are the most dishonest and devious person I have ever had the misfortune to meet. Why would I want to get into a civil debate with a twat such as you?

Now, fuck off.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 10:01 AM

Your problem, Keith, is that all your contributions below the line these days are agenda-laden pure poison. You're getting exactly what you deserve, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 10:06 AM

Dave stated, " The subsequent mismanagement of the whole affair by our government is an absolute disgrace."

It is perfectly reasonable to ask to what he referred.
There is absolutely to justification for the vile language and abuse in reply to a reasonable and civil question.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 10:08 AM

You don't do reasonable civil questions, Keith. You attempt to lay traps for the unwary. Unfortunately for you everyone else understands this now.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 10:24 AM

I apologise to all, apart from Keith who deserves it, for having to put up with my language above. I shall desist forthwith and restrict myself to non offensive responses. I still have the same views about Keith and his narcissistic personality disorder but you should not all have to put up with my frustration at his devious and malicious ways.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 10:33 AM

I started this thread....

So I say swearing is big and clever and cool, and most welcome here...

But boring old gits need to think twice about being so persistently relentlessly repetitive and boring...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 10:36 AM

Jim
agaibh bum 'S e mach air an uinneig

""No" more than "noony", I'd dat" I thought was a typo and was ingnoring it

Touche

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 10:48 AM

Thanks PFR :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 11:45 AM

""No" more than "noony","
Can't remember exact translation (haven't used it since teenage days and it was a phonetic stab anyway), but it roughly meant ' if you can't pay the entrance fee, you can't come in"
I have no Irish/Scots so you'll have to explain
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 12:08 PM

I think Keith's query was reasonable and has yet to be answered. What has been botched about the UK response to the extremely nasty attack on legal residents and the suspicious deaths of many others? (And the ominous statements from the Russians).

DTG obvious has it in for this poster but can only repetitively swear. At least try to be clever.

As for the other Putin fans: Crimea River!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 12:16 PM

DTG obvious has it in for this poster but can only repetitively swear.

Not true Robomatic, I can do far worse than that :-) Besides I have now apologised for all the swearing even though it was justified.


At least try to be clever.

There is no point. It goes straight over the head of some but, just for you, I will comment further on PFRs statement that is is big and clever to swear. What do you call a stupid Gnome? Nothing. It's not big and it's not clever...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 12:42 PM

My dad told me that one thing he learned from post war national service as ground crew in the RAF,
was that the public school educated officer class
were outstandingly inventive and hilariously entertaining with their masterful command of obscene vocabulary...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 01:10 PM

Dave,
Keith. You attempt to lay traps for the unwary.

Huh?
I just asked what mismanagement you referred to.
All you had to do was tell us.
How is that a trap?
You are being weird.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 01:15 PM

And you are being Keith. I have no intention of entering into any discourse with you. There lies the route to insanity.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 01:16 PM

"mismanagement"...???

well.. errrmmm.. letting Boris loose to open his gob, for one thing.....


Now he is certainly a master of being easily convinced and certain on extremely problematic and complcated issues...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 01:41 PM

No need to explain, PFR, everyone understands what we are on about bar one. And he is just fishing for a fight. Feel free to continue if you want to don the gloves but remember that it will just be peeing in the wind.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 01:48 PM

Nah.. I was just being a smart arse for my own amusement..

Kieth should know by now I don't engage in his games,
unless i choose to for a laugh...


Which is a shame really, because he may once have been a bright interesting bloke to talk with...?????

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 02:14 PM

Lads - lads
Don't et this clown run another thread into the ground
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 02:15 PM

He was! A long time ago though. Not sure what happened to change that.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 03:00 PM

Something more is happening to Dave the Gnome to be responding in such an anti community manner lately. He is not always this incendiary. It would be best if he were given some slack until things hopefully resolve.
All the best Dave.



Punkrocker' There are some black and white questions that forever turn some shade of grey.
These murder attempts are a dark Russian grey.

As to actors who cyber attack Democracy there are a whole host of respondsible parties like Face book, Russian Trolls, UK Cambridge Analytica, The Mercers, Bannon and Putin.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 03:06 PM

Thanks Donuel. I know what it was and it is resolved. Your concern is appreciated.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 03:16 PM

Perhaps it is just an unresolved Brexit debate with Keith.
He's not a registered Nazi is he?

Russia controls (with capability and intent) in at least 21 States regarding US elections. The cyber war is worse than you think.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 03:23 PM

He's not a registered Nazi is he?

You are, as ever, the most perceptive of 'catters :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 05:09 PM

"The fact that you have no answer indicates that you don't believe your atrocious holocaust-denying bullshit any more than anybody else does and are just riding it for attention"
I see the resident clown has come out to close yet another thread with his stupidity.

The discussion was entirely civil until he popped out of his bog, muttering his usual mishmash of gibberish and insanity.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 06:38 PM

Putin dismissed the whole affair as "absurd" when asked about it at his post- election press conference today. The first thing that came to mind he said was that ,had a military grade nerve agent been used, both the Skirpals would have died instantaneously.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 07:05 PM

Putin dismissed the whole affair as "absurd"

Lololol.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 07:10 PM

I've had it out with various 'catters in these venues but with the increase in sunlight radiating into my brain I've realized that there are some big problems out there that dwarf any minor irritation any of you blighters can produce, and some profound joys and wonders that any of you fine people can and do appreciate along with moi-meme. So I hope to be entertained by the clever of any extraction and to shed more light than heat, but of course the devil over me left shoulder might encourage me to say something especially nasty now and then and I hope that the thread closers out there will look upon such mutterings as spiceful and not close-another-damn-threadful.

Right now I've taken a pill and I love you all, semi-carnally.

Now back to the subject, which is extremely interesting. Let's go with that Putin comment: "If it had been one of our nerve agents, no one would've survived."
Apparently the British have a good idea of the nerve agent and there are three casualties, all alive, but all unwell, two particularly so. I haven’t heard any details and I don’t know if this is because I haven’t read the right news feeds or because those with the facts are keeping them close, which I’m sure is what I’d do. And if I were the Russians I’d be very interested either way. Either I’ve tried to kill someone and failed, or someone has tried to kill someone and put the frame on me. Worthy of a detective novel, and sure to be one soon.
This is reminiscent, somewhat, of Malaysian Airlines Flight 370, where it’s hard to believe that someone doesn’t know what happened, but it’s clearly very important to secure the means of knowing what happened.
So, clearly the UK feels justified in putting the arm on the Soviets, excuse me, the Russians. And clearly they hope they have enough of the public trust to be able to abstain from spilling the beans on all they know, which clearly the Russians would love to have in any case.
We’re living in an age of more exposure and less trust, and the two are definitely related. It’s a case of the ease of clinging to faith in darkness, and the more light that’s shed lessens the causeless fear, raises the fear with cause, and lowers respect for all the great institutions which could flourish in darkness.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 07:20 PM

Robomatic .... do you mean " a big boy done it and ran away?"

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 07:44 PM

The Prime Minister Mrs May said: "Either this was a direct action by the Russian state against our country, or the Russian government lost control of its potentially catastrophically damaging nerve agent and allowed it to get into the hands of others."(BBC)

Well what was it?
In my view if you are going to blame a country for losing something it is very different to accusing them of using an agent to deliberately "incapacitate" people.

So if your car is stolen and is driven into pedestrians it is your fault.
Some very dodgy logic and equally dodgy conclusions!
It all seems very pyrhonesque if it was not so serious. It is obviously not just Boris that is a buffoon.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 08:14 PM

On top of that we're expected to accept the assertion that stuff that has been around for over thirty years has never been anywhere except in Russia and couldn't have been made anywhere except in Russia. Even worse, we're expected to believe that you can track the stuff's precise origins from its breakdown products. There's a very murky agenda afoot here. Now I note that the government has bottled it on imposing any further sanctions. We're apparently waiting for our allies. Really convincing stuff, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 04:34 AM

Naught to do with a tamed brexit of course! Defence and the EU. one for all and all for one blah blah blah!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 05:28 AM

"I see the resident clown has come out to close yet another thread with his stupidity.
The discussion was entirely civil until he popped out of his bog, muttering his usual mishmash of gibberish and insanity."
You statement sums up what you are about
Like policemen and number 22 buses, There's never a forum fairy around when you want one, is there ?
Grow up
I have asked a civil question civilly, and receive only personal abuse
And still no reply as to why the civilised world is wrong and you are right
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 05:29 AM

Mayo,
The first thing that came to mind he said was that ,had a military grade nerve agent been used, both the Skirpals would have died instantaneously.

No.
"While the chemical would take effect “almost instantaneously” if inhaled, Mr. Kaszeta said, it would work much more slowly, perhaps over a matter of hours, if absorbed through the skin. The agent is activated when it comes in contact with water and would be absorbed through the pores, slowed down by subcutaneous fat, Mr. Kaszeta said.
At first the effect would be felt locally, around the point of exposure.
Once the chemical entered the bloodstream, it would cause the victim’s muscles to go into spasms, pupils to shrink to pinpoints, and breathing to become very labored, said Alastair Hay, an emeritus professor of toxicology at the University of Leeds. At this point, the victim’s life could be saved only by the administration of atropine, which counteracts the agent and allows the body to metabolize it."
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/13/world/europe/uk-russia-spy-poisoning.html
Atropine is readily available in AandE units.

Steve,
On top of that we're expected to accept the assertion that stuff that has been around for over thirty years has never been anywhere except in Russia and couldn't have been made anywhere except in Russia

These things are developed and held in great secrecy.
If they have lost control of it they should say how and who to.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 06:03 AM

I refuse to pick up your dummy jimmie. Go away before you shut down yet another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 06:47 AM

An interesting read:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/48966.htm

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 06:53 AM

Yep. Just another source, but a bloody interesting one nonetheless. As I said, the drip-feed of evidence to the public has dried up. In two weeks, all we've had is the formulaic diplomat-swap. I predict that this story will not run and not run.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 07:06 AM

I predict that it will.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 07:18 AM

"Donald Trump and Jean-Claude Juncker have broken ranks with western disapproval for Vladimir Putin, issuing their congratulations to the Russian leader for his electoral success even as diplomats were flown out of the UK in retribution for the Salisbury nerve agent attack."

Non believers perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 07:38 AM

"I refuse to pick up your dummy jimmie. Go away before you shut down yet another thread."
I don't know if your behaviour is down to a medical condition or simple a result of bad upbringing, but either way, you really need to learn to control it
What you are doing is cyber-bullying from the safety of anonymity and distance
If you continue to behave as you do I will formally request that you are removed -
I have not insulted anybody and it is your behaviour and attempts to silence opinions that you can't deal with that will close this thread - another scalp on your belt.
Please stop it now before somebody else has to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 08:07 AM

Now now girls handbags at dawn havnt closed threads YET

An interesting piece from Mary Beard TV historian
I'm not looking for aspersions to be cast but I am looking for some folks to take a good look in the mirror and see if they can identify themselves and make a public confession
Ps I'm not holding my breath

Have a read at Psychology of internet trolls

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 08:41 AM

Interesting piece, Kenny, and yes I have displayed some of these traits in so much as I have purposely tried to be as obnoxious as possible on this and other threads. I have since apologised and promised to moderate my language. What I found most interesting was that Ms Beard says In a comprehensive examination of their psychological profile, trolls were found to be more Machiavellian (impulsive and charming manipulators. I do find that while I can live with straight forward abuse, and dish it out, it is the incideous machinations of these trolls that I believe to be far more harmful.

I can see why others may class my behaviour as trollish at times in that it can be seen as anti-social. I will try to moderate that myself. In my defense I can honestly say that I only resort to abuse when nothing else has worked and I am frustrated by others! My bad I suppose. At least I am open and above board about it rather than devious and scheming :-)

Now, speaking of devious poisons, back to novichoks...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 08:54 AM

Thank you DtG for an interesting reply.
Personally, being a Libra and always looking for a balance and smiling in the face of adversity, I tend to go to the side of self depreciating humor , it doesn't always work but its more fun,
Ps the spelling error is deliberate

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 09:01 AM

No probs, Kenny. Yes, I do rely on a little self deprecation on occasions. I tried it in this post but I suspect it was missed amongst all the shouting :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 09:54 AM

I don't like the dismissive term 'troll' - and am suspicious of folks who do overuse it.

I just feel more comfy in the belief that we are all varying degrees of 'arsehole' or 'wanker'..
some far more than others..
and any of us more or less of an arsehole or wanker at any time
depending on mood, provocations, and any other of the various behavoural modifiers...

Special mention, though, reserved for 'arseholes' who are also 'wankers'... wow..!!!

Respect.. that is an extra enormous achievement....

Now back to if the Russians dunnit or not....

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 10:01 AM

btw... 'arseholes' who are also 'wankers'

ie.. what a warsole...

On impulse I just googled "warsole" and it doesn't seem to exist...????

So I claim warsole as originated in and for the exclusive use of mudcat... if you lad's like the sound of it....???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 10:07 AM

spoke too soon... I mis spelled my own word and googled with a missing 'e'...

But 'warsehole ' only shows up once from 2010, and with an unclear useage..

So yeah why not.. I still claim WARSEHOLE for mudcatters...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 10:28 AM

PFR ....need a definition for it to be put in the dictionary ... keeps the thread going till something concrete comes up.... ooops do I know something is in the wind?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 10:37 AM

Warsehole - Def: K....

no, sorry.. that's uncalled for.. I'm being a bit of a warsehole...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 11:58 AM

Bobad, do you think that Putin was wrong in saying that the British claim of a military grade nerve agent being used was "absurd" ?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:05 PM

To my mind, the most obvious angle that's missing from this piss pot of plots
Would have been Russia calmly stating

"No, it wasn't us. But we'll do our best to help you quickly identify who did do it"

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:07 PM

I do Mick, and UK has passed samples to OPCW for independent verification.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:28 PM

Russia didn't say that, pfr, because we told Russia that they'd definitely dunnit and gave 'em 24 hours to explain themselves. Now let's just pretend that you're Russia and I'm Theresa May. I tell you in aggressive tones that you've definitely done something naughty that you know you haven't done and I give you 24 hours to explain yourself. Apart from starting with "Bugger off, Maybot, and shove your accusation up your fundament..." how would you continue the sentence?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:29 PM

I’m no expert myself, Keith but would have thought that Putin knew what he was talking about .Maybe somebody from the UK’s MoD will correct him on the point .

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:29 PM

"I do Mick, and UK has passed samples to OPCW for independent verification."


Spot the non seq...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:31 PM

Dave, you posted this on another thread.
Just when you thought that the Tories could not sink any lower than using the Russian nerve agent fiasco to mask passing legislation removing free school meals for thousands of the poorest children

Presumably you believe the government has exagerated the crime to achieve that.
That is a very extreme view. I am surprised even you could suggest it.

I wonder why you think that. Are you prepared to discuss?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:37 PM

Mick,
that Putin knew what he was talking about .

He may not be being honest.

Steve,
Spot the non seq...

I meant that if "the British claim of a military grade nerve agent being used was "absurd" " they would not risk independent analysis exposing it.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:39 PM

Well... we can wonder how much better this incident would have been handled if it had happened with labour in Govt and Corbyn as PM...???

[Conspiracy theory alert...!!!] - ..but would it even have happened at all under a Labour Govt...!!!?????

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:42 PM

Bobad, do you think that Putin was wrong in saying that the British claim of a military grade nerve agent being used was "absurd" ?

WTF do you expect him to say? You really don't get it, do you.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:47 PM

"I meant that if "the British claim of a military grade nerve agent being used was "absurd" " they would not risk independent analysis exposing it.

Keith - but that goes back to a corny plot premise of a recent spy movie I outlined above...

"We found a Russian bullet in his skull.. That proves the Russians did it"

Granted identifiable nerve agents might be more difficult to procur on the dark web than a bullet,
but.... if secret agent X working for the T..... is utterely determined to frame the Reds....????

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:58 PM

Below is a link to the press conference where the Russian leader made the claim after being asked about the Salisbury incident 5 mins into the Sputnik clip . If it isn't true, Putin's assertion that a military grade nerve agent would have killed the pair instantaneously should be easy enough to refute .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3idEmJEWK8

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 01:27 PM

Are you prepared to discuss?

Certainly not with most dishonest and devious poster on Mudcat. Not this nor anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 01:33 PM

"I have not insulted anybody"

You are 'aving a larf aren't you? or is it a black hole between your ears sucking everything in and nothing of note coming out?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 01:41 PM

I'll insult all of you ya bunch of warseholes...!!! [me included]

Right then, can we please try to keep personal grudges and bitch fights outside in the car park...???

I'd like to read some more wacky conspiracy theories before this thread attracts attention from the thread closing gods...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 01:52 PM

At the right doses, nerve agents can kill within five to 15 minutes, says chemical weapons expert Mark Bishop at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey. But the Novichok agents are thought to be even more dangerous and deadly; Mirzayanov claims that Novichok-5, for example, can be five to eight times more potent than VX. So the fact that the Skripals are still alive means that “it must have been low dose, or impure, or not administered in a really efficient way,” Bishop tells The Verge. “Because it doesn’t take very much of a nerve agent to be fatal.”
Make of that what you will (and we still have no independent verification of the given analysis)

It has been a convention to date(pre-polonium days)that you do not go after exchanged persons, and you do not endanger the civilian population. No longer true if the sheeple believe everything they are fed.

It all makes as much sense as Assad supposedly gassing civilians when he has virtually won.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/14/17120696/russian-novichok-skripal-nerve-agent-chemical-weapon-poisoning-england

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 02:15 PM

"You are 'aving a larf aren't you? "]
You've promised to put my insults up numortous times Iains - as elusive as your explanation of why every Human Right organisation and most nations have Cuddly Assad all wrong
"or is it a black hole between your ears sucking everything in and nothing of note coming out?"
Now that's what I call an infantil insult
Surely even you realise the crassness of accusing somdy of insulting by insulting them!!!!
Grow up!!
Of course - some people consider being contradicted an insult - there's a psychological term for that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 02:47 PM

Mick,
e, Putin's assertion that a military grade nerve agent would have killed the pair instantaneously should be easy enough to refute .

Yes. I quoted an expert doing just that. Did you read it?

Pfr, There is no comparison between bullets and nerve agents.

Dave,
Certainly not with most dishonest and devious poster on Mudcat.

There must be more than one person who would like to know why you hold that extraordinary view.
There were at least two of us who wanted to know what mismanagement you referred to.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 03:00 PM

I put up the best conspiracy theory right early on, PFR. Who was missing from the forum at the time of the poisoning? Who usually posts more poison than anyone else? Who is biggest get on your nerves agent that you know?

Think about it. Makes perfect sense :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 03:05 PM

"Pfr, There is no comparison between bullets and nerve agents."


thinking on from mismanagement....

"mismanglement"

Def: Keith's uncanny ability to misread, misinterpret, misunderstand, whilst maintaining a position of being utterly right...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 03:10 PM

why every Human Right organisation and most nations have Cuddly Assad all wrong
most Western nations you mean , Jim ?
Turkey , Israel Saudi Arabia condemn Assad as harshly as you do but other nations in the region as well as in other parts of the world - Russia, China , Cuba , Venezuela, Pakistan for instance - have good relations with Syria .The countries that supported the invasion of Iraq tend to take the anti-Syrian line.
I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that pro-Syrian countries have pro-Syrian human rights organizations in the same way as anti-Syrian countries have their own anti-Syrian human rights organisations!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 04:04 PM

Mayomick. You cannot beat a bit of reality. Congratulations on telling it like it is.
I hope you have your bunker prepared!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 04:35 PM

We have good relations with Assad Mick - at least our politicians and businessmen do - it's good business
That fact doesn't change one iota anything we have seen on our screens or had reported by human rights organisations
We have helped provide weapons for some of the worst atrocities on the planet - does that make them any the less atrocities?
Britain has just struck a profitable deal to sell fighter planes to Saudi - they are quite likely to be used in Yemen
That's all right then - they are our mates
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 05:04 PM

"We have good relations with Assad Mick - at least our politicians and businessmen do - it's good business"

Yeah right! Wots all them sanctions about then? Could not even use a windows operating system because of embargoes when I was there and it has become considerably worse since I left some years ago. Bush imposed sanctions in 2004 long before things kicked off.
I can state quite categorically our politicians and business men do not have good relations with Syria. More and more sanctions are being applied each year to the extent of depriving Syria's hospitals of essential machinery, spare parts and even drugs which is having a significant impact on ordinary Syrians. (a familiar story as Iraq knows well)

Be nice if you endeavoured to check the basic facts before posting.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 05:10 PM

Funny how britain identifies the poison/nervegas in five minutes and the international experts will take three weeks. Just sayin like!

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2018/03/20/world/europe/20reuters-britain-chemicalweapons-un.html

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 05:37 PM

Russia, China , Cuba , Venezuela, Pakistan for instance.....

You left North Korea out of your list of authoritarian autocracies.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 09:26 PM

Russia has used its veto power in the United Nations Security Council repeatedly to block action against Syria, its ally, based on the monitoring group’s reporting on chemical weapons use there. Andrew C. Weber, a former assistant secretary of defense for nuclear, chemical and biological defense programs, said this had tarnished Russia’s “extraordinary achievement” in destroying 40,000 metric tons of stockpiled weapons.

“It does take away from their achievement — frankly, it’s disgraceful — and now the Russian Federation has apparently been caught in a flagrant violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention,” said Mr. Weber, who emerged on Tuesday from a routine meeting with Russian chemical weapons experts on disarmament projects. They were “embarrassed,” he said, when Novichok came up in conversation.

“They don’t want to believe that their government actually did this,” he said.

NY Times

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 04:26 AM

2Funny how britain identifies the poison/nervegas in five minutes"
HARDLY THE FIRST TIME IT'S HAPPENED!
Just sayin'
"I can state quite categorically our politicians and business men do not have good relations with Syria."
No you can't
Up to the point when Assad was massacring the people of Homs, Britain was supplying military equipment to Assad - it is possible that sniper ammunition licensed by Britain was used to train Assad's snipers - certainly, armoured cars, tear gas and water cannons sold by Britain were used to suppress the Arab Spring demonstrations - this, despite the fact that the world was fully aware of the torture and mass murder that had been taking lace in Syria for over a decade, thanks to THE AMNESTY REPORT of Syrian atrocities.
Britain was in the position to oppose Assad with economic and snd political sanctions - it chose not to
The sanctions only came when Assad used chemical weapons on his opponents (possibly manufactured using British-sold chemicals) - the decision to impose sanctions was due to international outrage at Assad's behaviour and the rise of Isis - certainly not a humanitarian one.
When all this is over, it is unlikely that Assad will ever stand trial for his mass murder and he will return to being a "valued trading partner"
It would be nice if you actually accepted the extent of this mass-murderers atrocities rather than doing a David Irving on him
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 05:09 AM

The thread is entitled "If Russia didn't do it - who did ???" Why do you constantly bring in your favourite one eyed, deluded hobbyhorse Syria? Everytime you do it the thread is closed shortly after. I believe Teribus refuted much of your nonsense about Syria with well reasoned factual arguments. He had a lot more patience with you than I have. Frankly many of your assertions are insulting. You are the constant turd in the punchbowl of any rational discussion on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 05:53 AM

"You are the constant turd in the punchbowl of any rational discussion on this forum."
Start the morning at the high intellectual level you obviously intend to continue
You really are going to convince a lot of people with that attitude Iains - maybe the friends you mix with anyway!!
Teribus was as insulting as you (only better at it) and disproved nothing - that's why he blustered and bullied the way you do
Do you really believe that Russia and Syria aren't joined at the hip !!
Screaming "thread-drift" is an old and worn-out tactic - you've been happy to participate in this until you painted yourself into a corner
Grow up and have a bit of self-respect for yourself for Christ's sake
Who do you think you are impressing by behaving like a child who can't get his own way?
You have the documented facts - deal with them if you have any balls
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 09:37 AM

The fav link of Iains is global research which is a clearing house of conspiracy theories with no in house journalists. It is a obvious a Russian fake news website as there are.

Many of the UK folks while very smart are the victims of Brexit which was Russia inspired and delivered.

In The US we were sold Vladimir Trump.

We now know how Facebook enabled the hack of democracy. Trump essentially paid only 6 million for 50 million fake news attacks.

Why would anyone persist in fouling mudcat with such links.

HE WISHES YOU ILL WILL.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 09:59 AM

BBC mid day news today, live coverage of UK Russian Ambassador's hostile press interrorgation...

He came out of it quite well, if a little twinkle in his eye...

A Times reporter got told off by him for being an antagonistic disrespectful wanker..

Symptomatic of the polite disdain the Russian Ambasador holds for our glorious tory government and it's formalised anti Russian campaign...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 10:35 AM

It gets murkier by the moment.

http://stephenlendman.org/2018/03/russia-denied-right-discovery-skripal-affair/

But the deep state stooges on here keep bleating the party line. I wonder if frontal lobotomies are contagious?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 10:57 AM

our glorious tory government and it's formalised anti Russian campaign...

I saw senior Labour official Keir Starmer on Question Time on Thursday.
He supported the government position and made no criticism of them.

Has any politician from any party been critical?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:09 AM

Keith - so you require us to download and watch that Question Time
just to veryfy if your interpretation of Starmer's response
is a correct reading of his position and intent, or not...

In the meantime, forgive us if we are sceptical....

Btw - How much more homework will you be setting for us over the Easter holiday...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:12 AM

I set you nothing.
Starmer did support the government.
Most here will have seen it.
I will give you a link and the relevant timings if you doubt me.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:15 AM

BBC
Sir Keir Starmer: 'All of us' should condemn Russia
Labour's Sir Keir Starmer has backed the Prime Minister in calling out Russia's involvement in the Salisbury attack.
Speaking on BBC One's Question Time, the shadow Brexit Secretary also agreed with Jeremy Corbyn that the authorities need space to do their job properly.
A succession of Labour MPs had called for their party leader to be firmer in his condemnation of Russia.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-43425911/sir-keir-starmer-all-of-us-should-condemn-russia

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:20 AM

"....And we need strong action as set out by the Prime Minister on Wednesday."

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:25 AM

A severe case of missmanglemant from our chief warsehole methinks PFR. Thanks for those words :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:26 AM

Russia... hmmmm....

Which Russia...??????

politician's do realise that Russia is a big place of diverse folks, cultures, political factions, foreign interests, etc...????

Not the easiest entity to agree to be 'persuaded' by tory leadership into whole heartedly condemning ..????


But does make you wonder about labour officials who do so quickly jump to side with the tories....?????

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 12:07 PM

A visual metaphor of how the tory propaganda machine diseminates disinformation.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:10 PM

I like the way he stands over the blue touch paper when igniting it. Obviously sleeping through the site safety induction.
Did he have shit for brains before the explosion as well?
Sadly they walk among us, Walmart no longer has the monopoly!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 02:23 PM

"....And we need strong action as set out by the Prime Minister on Wednesday."
Just watched Ellie May talking about the chemical attack - she made it clear that the Government now has made up her mind who the culprit was nd described "the russian attack as "RECKLESS!!!
Had a Muslim State made such an attack on British soil she would, rightfully, have described it as AN ACT OF TERRORISM
Whence the difference?
This attack has left two Russians maimed, probably for life, (if they survive) a policeman and another unnamed observer badly hurt
Why is this not an act of terrorism!!
Last week The Times carried a cartoon showing Theresa the Mayfly attacking Putin with two feather dusters - makes sense to me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:40 PM

Russia... hmmmm....
Which Russia...??????

Their government.
It has been made clear there is no quarrel with ordinary Russians.

Why is this not an act of terrorism!!

It is. The accusation is that it was perpetrated by the Russian government.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:40 PM

It's government directed targeted murder. I suppose it can be called state terrorism against its dissidents as its purpose is to send a message to any of its citizens who might entertain similar ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:45 PM

"I suppose "
You suppose!!!!!
It was against 2 Russians legally residing in Britain and it took in 2 British citizens - it was an act of State terror
You seem to have borrowed Mayfly's feather duster Bobad
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 02:18 PM

In God We Trust; Others Must Provide Data.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 02:29 PM

In God we trust???

If he exists I would trust the useless twat as far as I could throw him.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 02:48 PM

Russia, China, and India must be pissing themselves laughing at soon to be very isolated little pipsqueak tory Britain,
postering as though it is still a serious world power...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 05:50 PM

"It's government directed targeted murder."

No proof.

..................................................

Seen round the edge of a sign made to look like a huge US coin, behind the bar in the pub at Broadford, Isle Of Skye, 1974:

IN GOD WE TRUST. THE REST PAY CASH.

Might have been around the same time. I can't remember where I saw it, but it was also behind a pub bar:

CREDIT IS AVAILABLE TO CUSTOMERS OVER THE AGE OF 90 AS LONG AS THEY ARE ACCOMPANIED BY BOTH PARENTS

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 06:05 PM

Was it accompanied by a sign saying "God gave man the highlands and Macbrayne the western Isles"?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 06:22 PM

Not sure. As my dad was driving and we were in a pub, I may have had double vision...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 07:59 PM

"It's government directed targeted murder."
No proof.
And there probably never shall be Steve - Mayfly and Western interests wll make sure of that
Bt the logic is that it was Putin's "free" Russia.
It has happened once before and 'free' Russia's track record, both in supporting right wing-extremism and its enthusiastic embracing all the worst aspects of Capitalist society and its suppression of all challenges to the State's authority have shown that it is more than capable of such things
I was a strong opponent of Stalin and highly critical of the way the old Soviet Union had developed, but, when I visited Russia in the early sixties I was sharply aware that the dream of making the world a better place was still very much a better place was still foremost in the thinking there, despite bureaucratic compromises -
That's gone now, and Russia has gone the way of the former Communist States in developing a dog-eat-dog society
The present leaders put the shits up me far more than the worst aspects of the old Soviets did
I've often thought of going back, but I'd rather live with the memories of a society with hope and principles
Let's face it - whoever did this is no different than the U.S. interference in the affairs of counties who didn't fall into line - propped up dictators like Paapa Doc and Marshal Ki, the eighty odd attempts on Castro's life, the Bay of Pigs, the assassination of Patrice Lumumba, the invasion of Grenada.... it's what Western Democracy is all about   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:09 AM

The EU Council "agrees with UK government that highly likely Russia is responsible for Salisbuy attack and there is no other plausible explanation."
EU has taken the rare step of withdrawing its ambassador from Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:53 AM

The EU are now the good guys? Wonder why we are leaving...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 03:58 AM

More massaging of public opinion. We cannot preserve our security going it alone. A leak to the papers of new blue passports to be printed in the UK(Despite De La Rue making banknotes and special papers for passports for numerous countries)
All little facts unrelated in themselves but hasn't this poisoning created a wonderful plea for European unity? and what spiffing timing.
No doubt we are about to get irished for another referendum!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 04:30 AM

The butler did it.

Philip Marlowe would have sorted it out by now.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 04:38 AM

Not Hercule Poirot though. I don't think he could work in the UK after the brexit vote :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 05:13 AM

It is all getting a bit foggy. It gives Niccolò Machiavelli strictly amateur status in comparison to these elaborations.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/russia-links-skripal-accusations-to-brexit/article23324899.ece

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/03/conspiracy-theories-rife-russia-sergei-skripal-poisoning-180313080229802.html

https://www.wsj.com/articles/after-ex-spys-poisoning-eu-action-on-russia-is-far-from-a-sure-thing-1521394000

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 06:06 AM

"Highly likely" doesn't entitle the EU, May or anybody else to appoint themselves judge, jury and executioner. Everybody in the world outside Russia saying that Russia did it doesn't make it it any more or any less likely that they did. We are being massaged into accepting it by "authority figures" closing ranks to make "authoritative statements." It's just as I suspected. There is no evidence for Russia having done the deed that isn't already out there (hence only "highly likely") and the only evidence that is already out there is "they're reds and what more do you need" evidence. You wouldn't sentence anyone to the chair on the strength of it, would you?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 06:43 AM

. We are being massaged into accepting it by "authority figures" closing ranks to make "authoritative statements." It's just as I suspected.

So US and all EU are part of a conspiracy to persuade us all of Russia's guilt!
Somewhat improbable.

They are better informed than you and from the evidence available to them they conclude that there is" no plausible alternative explanation."

Absolute proof will never be available unless they confess.
To all those governments the evidence is clear.
"Highly likely" is all that can ever be said without a confession.
Doing nothing because of that is not an option.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 06:56 AM

Sucker.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 07:40 AM

Playground name calling in place of any reasoned reply.
No change there Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 08:31 AM

Steve, don't go there! You know what will happen. He will quote something, deny that is what he said, quote it again differently, accuse you lying, put some exceptions in there like no opinion is valid but that of eminent living train drivers from Bromsgrove, accuse you of lying again, tell Jim he is a liar, tell me I am unhinged and, finally, the moderators will be that pissed off with it they will close the thread.

You know it makes sense ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 08:37 AM

I think you need to carefully study the language used. Not a single absolute to be seen, just probabilities. How many of these fine politians driving brexit are closet remainers.
Why jail a man for spying, agree to swap him and then attempt to top him very publicly with an unknown nerve agent and also involve innocent civilians?
If the nerve agent has been identified why send it to an international agency for analysis?
Why not supply a sample of the agent to the accused?
Why the sudden turnabout by the EU to support the UK?
Why the emphasis on joint security?
How many times has Porton Down poisoned civilians?

The Tuskegee syphilis experiment demonstrated decades ago why government cannot be trusted. If people can be waterboarded and subjected to extraordinary rendition in the modern world, what else are shady agencies capable of? The spanish inquisition were angels in comparison.

If this is not manipulation then I am a spaceman.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 09:18 AM

I think you've got a hole in your rusky moonsuit.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 09:56 AM

It’s highly likely that Carlsberg is the best lager in the world , Keith but the assessment is very subjective at the same time , you must admit.



"On March 16 Steven Davies, “Consultant in Emergency Medicine” at Salisbury hospital, wrote the following letter to the Times in response to an article that had appeared there two days earlier.This is the text of the letter:

“Sir, Further to your report (“Poison Exposure Leaves Almost 40 Needing Treatment”, Mar 14), may I clarify that no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve-agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning. Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved.

STEPHEN DAVIES, Consultant in Emergency Medicine, Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust”"


https://off-guardian.org/2018/03/21/what-did-the-salisbury-physician-mean-by-no-patients-have-experienced-symptoms-of-nerve-agen

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 10:10 AM

"I think you've got a hole in your rusky moonsuit."

They're reds and what more do you need? Thanks to Andy Irvine for that wonderful line about brainless prejudice. One step only removed from lynch-mob mentality.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 10:48 AM

Q.What's the distance between Salisbury and Piltdown ? Answer .104 years

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 11:20 AM

Oh dear. Ive been rumbled.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYYRH4apXDo

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 12:11 PM

Mayo,
The relative status of one lager compared to others is certainly subjective.
How is that relevant?

Your report is not worded well.
"and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning."

That would be the two Russians and the cop.
Since then another cop has been treated.
No surprises there.
He clearly meant no other cases apart from those three.

I believe all those democratically elected, liberal, EU governments over the conspiracy nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 12:13 PM

Dave, if I did any of those things, all you would have to do is quote me and the game would be up.

You never can because your accusations against me are just lies.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 12:51 PM

"You never can because your accusations against me are just lies."
You deserve everything you get Keith
Change you ways or lie back and enjoy the ride
Enough is enough
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 12:55 PM

No need for me to do anything. Everyone knows and they have already seen it. You will just ignore whatever is out up in evidence so there is no point you even asking.

Found out you are rumbled and trying to close yet another thread that has got too embarrassing for you?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:02 PM

Right then mates...

If starting this thread confers any authority to try to moderate it...???

I'd prefer if just as a trial experiment, we allow Keith an opportunity to try to redeeem an rehabilitate himself
within safe confines of this thread.

If Keith can show the self discipline to keep his contributions to this debate brief and concise, to the point of this topic,
it's only fair the rest of us restrain ourselves from habitual mockery and hostility.

In this thread I would like to see a total absence of Keith's overlong repetative circular screeds
responding to, defending and self justifying, every single minute pedantic disagreement since time began.

This more positive new horizon will not stand a chance
if some of us continue to needle him just for the the sake of it.........

Call me idealistic and naive, but can we at least see if this can work..
...if only in just this one thread...?????

btw.. I'll refrain from such calls to our better nature as
"Brothers, let's treat each other with love and respect.."
because that is well too nauseatingly happy clappy....

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:14 PM

Sorry to pop up like this in the middle of the affray, but I see that the latest news about Sergei and Yulia Skripal is that they may have suffered permanent brain damage as a result of this attack.
This is terribly tragic.
Just thought I'd say...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:16 PM

In the fictional world of spy movies, wiping memories is a standard plot device...


.. just saying....

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:51 PM

"I believe all those democratically elected, liberal, EU governments over the conspiracy nuts."

Well of course belief is generally achieved without evidence or, in the case of belief in God, in spite of evidence. Several things. First, you hate the EU so this sudden alliance you seem to have found is a very temporary marriage of convenience. Second, you are a Tory and therefore disapprove of liberals. Third, you seem to be forgetting that this is all high politics, not a court case, and the assertions we hear from on high are being made sans solid evidence. It's crystal clear that there is no evidence implicating Russia that isn't already in the public domain, and all the evidence that is out there is circumstantial only. They're reds and what more do we need-style evidence.   There's no other reason on earth than that for why the best they can do is "highly likely." All the declarations in the world from politicos can't change by one jot or tittle the veracity or otherwise of the claim that Russia done it. What you need to do, Keith, is to forget what all these agenda-ridden axe-grinders tell you and bloody well THINK FOR YOURSELF for once in your little life. That'll be the day, won't it?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:53 PM

By the way, to say that I will accept that Russia did it only when I have real evidence does not make me a "conspiracy nut." So don't be so bloody rude.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:07 PM

"Of course there is"? Absolute rubbish. If there was solid evidence that Russia did it we'd be told. We haven't got past "highly likely" or synonymous expressions for three bloody weeks. And if you want people to be nice to you stop calling those who disagree with your clearly-misguided notions "conspiracy nuts."

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:08 PM

Huh...?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:14 PM

Hmmmm. Looks like the post I tried to reference has disappeared. It was not the one from Steve I was referring to but one from Keith whinging about everyone getting at him. Looks like either the forum fairies are busy or I dreamt it!

C'est la vie as they say in Cleckheaton.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:21 PM

From the moment this incident broke on the news..
I accept there is at least a 50/50 plausibility that Russia dunnit,
with or without the direct command and involvement, or knowledge, of Putin...???

However, at the same time I find far too many things far too fishy regarding our tory government's 'investigation'
and motives for exploiting this emergency...

I could be persuaded to take seriously the possibility that Russia may have dunnit,
but our government [or maybe other plausible state/corporate suspects] planned and set it in motion via covert Russian contacts...??????

Who has most to gain...!!!???


All this wacky conspiracy intregue puts me in the mood to enjoy a mini spy movie festival
while the mrs is away visiting her family...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:22 PM

Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the cauldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg and howlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.

And now about the cauldron sing,
Live elves and fairies in a ring,
Enchanting all that you put in.

Obfuscation rules ok



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/22/andrei-zheleznyakov-soviet-scientist-poisoned-novichok

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:29 PM

btw...

If the post deleting gods have taken an interest in this thread...

when I say "In this thread I would like to see a total absence of Keith's overlong repetative circular screeds
responding to, defending and self justifying, every single minute pedantic disagreement since time began."

It really ought be as a result of Keith taking responsibility and showing self discipline to not type them in the fist place..
ideally that, and not mods deleting them...

Thank you very much....

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:48 PM

oh... and a word I forgot to type in my cautiously sceptical, and not the least paranoid conspiracy, analysis
of tory govt involvement, and all military emergency services hands on deck chemical clear up...

"STAGED"



Reminding somewhat of far fetched 1960s "The Avengers" episodes...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:53 PM

So this novichok tackle is a bit like Poundland epoxy glue. Nowt happens until you mix both bits. Except that with the Poundland glue the two parts mysteriously communicate with each other as they lie neglected in t'shed drawer for a month or two, meaning that if you ever wanted to use it for a second time, you've 'ad it, mate. Like music, life is a constant mystery.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 03:14 PM

Take it from me. It ain't just poundland epoxy. Maybe they could use cheap epoxy for the clean up and encapsulation of the {Novichokt} agent.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 03:24 PM

The Scottish play is relevant?

Id look to Coinneach Odhar Mckenzie for the outcome

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:37 AM

Pfr,
If Keith can show the self discipline to keep his contributions to this debate brief and concise, to the point of this topic,

My posts are always short. Much shorter than, say, Jim's.

On the closed thread I stuck to the issue until you and others switched to making false accusations against me personally.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:42 AM

I think we have just had a failure of not responding to, defending and self justifying, every single minute pedantic disagreement since time began.

Are you keeping count PFR?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:46 AM

Steve,
First, you hate the EU so this sudden alliance you seem to have found is a very temporary marriage of convenience. Second, you are a Tory and therefore disapprove of liberals.

My EU views and politics are irrelevant to this.
Stop trying to make it personal again.

It's crystal clear that there is no evidence implicating Russia that isn't already in the public domain,

Of course there is. Nothing has been released from the police or security services investigations, or technical information from the scientists.

You choose to believe Putin over EU governments.
What in his background makes that a sensible choice?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 04:06 AM

Questions, questions!
Might have to toddle off down the rabbit hole for answers.
Who was the guilty party?
The park bench?
The restaurant?
The pub?

"At first, they thought it might have been an opioid. Forty-eight hours later the counter terrorism police took the lead in the investigation. And then 24 hours after that they stepped forward to say they knew the "specific nerve agent" it was. Yet, it was only 48 hours after that when the British army was sent in, providing pictures of soldiers in protective suits removing cars and securing gravestones.

If there was at no point any risk to public safety -- as health officials insisted from the start -- these images risked looking like they served a political purpose by making the threat seem severe and the military the required response.
And then finally, an entire week later, and four days after the agent has been identified, 500 locals who went to the pub or restaurant are told to wash their clothes and themselves."

Are we playing charades here?

Answers on a postcard please!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 04:19 AM

If we work on the basis that all evidence is known to the leaders of the government, including the opposition cabinet, then we can only conclude that the available evidence is not enough to convince everybody. It seems to be far from conclusive.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 04:25 AM

Dave, It seems to be conclusive enough for the EU governments, who have accepted that Russia did it and are taking appropriate action over it.

Ians, there has never been such an attack before and mistakes were made early on in assessing the risks.
Just a couple of days ago another person needed traetment.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 05:05 AM

"Ians, there has never been such an attack before and mistakes were made early on in assessing the risks."

List of attacks:

Alexander Litvinenko
Anna Politkovskaya
Natalia Estemirova
Stanislav Markelov and Anastasia Baburova
Boris Nemtsov
Boris Berezovsky
Paul Klebnikov
Sergei Yushenkov

" and mistakes were made early on in assessing the risks"
aka ramping up Russian phobia and political grandstanding!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:07 AM

There has never ben such an attack.
Nerve agent has never been used before.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:10 AM

300
Since you mention Alexander Litvinenko, he was also murdered here by the Russian state, and they denied that too.
Their agent we wanted extradited and charged with murder is now in elected office under Putin.
You can give no credence to their denials over this.
I believe the liberal democratic governments of the EU on this.
I do not believe Putin.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:23 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuHFQ7KZOKA

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:55 AM

Your link is to the song "I Believe."
I find EU's liberal and democratic governments more believable than Putin.
Why don't you Ians, Dave, Steve, Rag?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:57 AM

Not everyone who has the known facts is convinced so there is an element of doubt. The line that it is absolutely certain seems to be politically motivated.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:07 AM

"Dave, It seems to be conclusive enough for the EU governments, who have accepted that Russia did it and are taking appropriate action over it."

You really don't get this politics lark, do you, Keith? The best the EU can do is "highly likely" and their "appropriate action" consists of the usual pointless shuffling of diplomats. Vlad must be quaking in his boots. And they have not "accepted it." They say it's "highly likely." Do you know the difference? How many times do you have to be told not to do this, Keith?

Me: "It's crystal clear that there is no evidence implicating Russia that isn't already in the public domain"

Keith: "Of course there is."

Oh, the certainty of the faithful in the face of adversity...

Do you know why I said that, Keith (and do reread Iains' post)? It's really simple. In spite of everything, the best our hallowed leaders can (non-unanimously - ask Mr Tsipras) come out with is that it's "highly likely." Translator's note for you, Keith: "We're still desperately scrabbling around to find out a better way of pinning this on the Ruskies, but as things stand we'll all have to accept that the best evidence we have is that this would be just typical of those Russians so they must have highly likely dunnit. And for decades now we've managed to get the people to hate Russia so that should do it for now. "

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:09 AM

Not everyone who has the known facts is convinced so there is an element of doubt.

Yet those who do have the facts that we don't are convinced........funny that.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:13 AM

Yet those who do have the facts that we don't are convinced

Not everyone who has the facts is convinced.

The best that the rest can come up with is highly likely.

Now, that is funny.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:23 AM

Dave,
Not everyone who has the known facts is convinced so there is an element of doubt.

Who?

The line that it is absolutely certain seems to be politically motivated.

And every EU country is in on it!
That is just silly.

Steve,
The best the EU can do is "highly likely" and their "appropriate action" consists of the usual pointless shuffling of diplomats

The expulsion of diplomats and the withdawal of the EU ambassador is never done on mere suspicion. It shows that guilt is being assumed.

Oh, the certainty of the faithful in the face of adversity...

Of course there is evidence not yet in the public domain.
Do you think that the massive police operation and security services have not found anything?!
Do you think that the general type of the agent used is all that the scientists have found?

You statement that all the evidence was in the public domain was laughable Steve.

the best our hallowed leaders can (non-unanimously - ask Mr Tsipras) come out with is that it's "highly likely."

Also that "there is no plausible alternative" and they are proceeding on the assumption that it is true.
And not just "our hallowed leaders" but every government in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:42 AM

The best that the rest can come up with is highly likely.

There are very few absolutes in life and none in these situations. The facts are obtained by deductive reasoning. The facts in this case have convinced all who are privy to them enough for them to act upon them. Even if the person who planted the nerve agent were to confess, those whose aim is to discredit the UK government would not accept his word making him out to be a stooge of.........(take your pick). It's pretty obvious how this game is played.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:49 AM

Believing everything politicians tell us is silly.

The fact that they are asking for a second opinion on the composition of the nerve agent indicates that some are not sure.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:58 AM

Although neanderthal man is extinct,some of the posting here would suggest not all have reached the exalted rank of Homo sapiens. Perhaps they represent the missing link.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:01 AM

The facts are obtained by deductive reasoning.

Not facts in this case. Circumstantial evidence at best. Which is why the politicians are being careful to use terms like highly likely. If they had facts they would have been certain. Highly likely is not a certainty.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:01 AM

Posts here should not be read while drinking. Keyboards may be harmed by laughing.

Every time Iains discourages the belief that Russia is involved, a punchline response comes along that deserves publication in the Atlas of Comedic Media Exploitation ACME. Robomatic, Anti-Bot humour may well be a grand automatic defense against Russian chaos propaganda.

We have some great examples from Guccifer 2 and Iains that are simple propoganda but classic. I think we should list them all together for clarity.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:16 AM

Circumstantial evidence at best.

You have absolutely no knowledge of what evidence they have. Your statement is laughable and revealing.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:21 AM

They currently have no evidence that hasn't already been put out. I know it, you know it, everybody knows it. Any decisive evidence would have been gleefully put out straight away, if for nothing else to shut up doubters like me.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:30 AM

No event occurs in isolation.
1)The brexiteer politicians are exceedingly limp-wristed when it comes to forging a brexit agreement. Their commitment is extremely "fragile"
2)Putin was up for re-election just before the story broke.
3)There has been much united EU action since the story broke in support of the British stance.
4)This has enabled much babbling on about the harm to our joint security if we sever ties (if you believe that suggest you return to reading books about Janet and John)

Most exquisite timing to poke putin in the eye and make the case for abandoning brexit on security grounds.

Food for thought: We expel Russian spies, Russia expels EU diplomats.
Noe come on. who is telling the porkies here?
The story has not even evolved with any degree of credibility. They havebeen making it up as they go along. Either that or they are complete cretins.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 10:20 AM

Iains wrote: Although neanderthal man is extinct,some of the posting here would suggest not all have reached the exalted rank of Homo sapiens. Perhaps they represent the missing link.

This sword is two edged.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 10:34 AM

Yese it is a claymore, to smite the ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 11:14 AM

.. or pea shooters in the case of May and Boris taking on big bear Russia in hyped up stage managed fall out..

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 11:33 AM

"a claymore, to smite the ignorant."
Isn't self abuse a mortal sin?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 11:44 AM

Is Flagellation a form of self abuse? Especially when it involves a dead horse or is that considered aggravated necrophilia..... I'm sure some expert on here can give a definitive opinion

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:02 PM

Ask a tory...

Tories are quite familiar with deceased animals - at least pig's heads...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:03 PM

The serial gobshite strikes again. This thread was moderately civilised til he popped up with his usual inanities.

"Isn't self abuse a mortal sin?" Are you speaking from personal experience?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:11 PM

I'd like this thread to be a good natured mix of on topic debate,
and irreverent banter to keep us amused when news developments
and new revalations about the incident are thin on the ground...

so far, this aint such a bad thread, folks arn't too combative for discomfort....................... [yet...]

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:26 PM

Dave,
Not everyone who has the known facts is convinced so there is an element of doubt.

Who?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:49 PM

Who? The PM can only say the evidence is likely. Pay attention or sit on the naughty step!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 01:02 PM

More abuse. From fester and alein

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9TIO4U_eHI

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 01:04 PM

In a lightbulb moment sat on the bog I recalled I had to sign the 'official secrets act' once or twice *
when I worked for civil service departments long time ago in one of my previous lives...

In this 21st century age of the internet and social media,
that seems such a quaint old non disclosure restraint to keep the truth from public scrutiny and debate...


[* clerical officer in a benefits office,
and wheelchair pusher and special toilet duties in an artificial limbs centre...

To think I am contravening state secrecy laws by disclosing I had to hold papier mache bottles for armless blokes to piss in...???]

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 01:14 PM

If Keith really believes that there's no element of doubt, all I can say is that he'd have made a great lynch mob leader. Or a great kangaroo court judge.

If there was no element of doubt, Keith, the politicos would be saying to us that the Russians definitely did it (not "highly likely did it") and here's how we know. There would be no point whatsoever in their withholding that information from us. But they are not withholding information because, as yet maybe, or maybe never, there isn't any. They are simply plying us with anti-Russian propaganda that hardly even amounts to decent circumstantial evidence in the hope that it will feed into the anti-Russian prejudice that has been groomed into us and softened us up for decades. JFK has a lot to answer for.

Still, I suppose we don't need gas as much in the summer anyway. I'm stocking up on barbie charcoal and praying for sunshine.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 01:51 PM

Steve,
. There would be no point whatsoever in their withholding that information from us

It is a crime. Evidence is usually withheld until a trial or enquiry.
The details of how Alexander Litvinenko was murdered did not emerge for months.

The EU governments are sufficiently convinced to take punitive action against Russia.

Like Keir Starmer and presumably your party, I support the action taken by UK and EU.

Why don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 01:52 PM

You have absolutely no knowledge of what evidence they have.

Yes I have. The knowledge that no one to date can say with certainty that the Russians did it. If they had that evidence they would say they know who did it. Not that it is very likely.

As to just who doubts it. Well, anyone who says they are certain. Everyone else has doubts. Note, this is not saying the Russians did not do it. Just that there is an element of doubt in the minds of all but a few hardened red under the bed fanatics.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 01:56 PM

Sorry, well find anyone who says they are certain etc.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:00 PM

Dave, so when you said, "Not everyone who has the known facts is convinced so there is an element of doubt." you meant like May and the government.

That is OK then because I support them as does your party.
They are convinced enough to accuse the Russians of lying and taking punitive action against them.
So quite convinced actually. Not much doubt actually.
In fact, "no plausible alternative explanation."

So Dave, our positions are the same.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:12 PM

Keith - you do tend to get lost in your own over-intellectualising, and leaps to wrong headed conclusions...

[there are far more crude ways of stating this observation...]

Few her are adamantly stating either the Russians definitely dunnit, or definitely didn't dunnit...

How can we without adequate facts...???

...that is why cautious sceptisicm is best advisable...

What is a fact, is Boris and May do not act in a way that encourages me to trust them...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:27 PM

What is a fact, is Boris and May do not act in a way that encourages me to trust them...!!!
O ye of little faith!

"“Lies sound like facts to those who've been conditioned to mis-recognize the truth.”

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:28 PM

When someone is convinced enough to take the case to the ICJ we can move on from very likely. Until then it is just political posturing.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:57 PM

Dave,
Just that there is an element of doubt in the minds of all but a few hardened red under the bed fanatics.

Who are these people?
You say that May and the government have doubts.
I just say that I support them on this.
So, who is it you disagree with?
Not me clearly.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:04 PM

hardened red under the bed fanatics.

When they start trotting out this kind of shit it's clear evidence that they've lost the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:17 PM

So just who is saying it definitely the Russians then, bobad? If you can find a serious source who says it is definitely the Russians, let us know who it is. Until then I stand by my statement.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:28 PM

Disparate threads from the east that will not be countenanced in the western media.

The great game continues until we all attend the final barbecue.

Who benefits??????? The truth is a riddle wrapped in an enigma.


http://www.unz.com/tsaker/a-truly-historical-month-for-the-future-of-our-planet/

I find it more than a little outlandish but there are a few relevant gems tucked away(in my opinion)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:35 PM

Bob - so how can anyone lose a debate that so far has no reliable answer...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:49 PM

“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”

? Socrates

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:53 PM

PFR - I know you like your cheesy action films. Try 'London has Fallen'. The ultimate conspirisy. The whole of England's security forces are infiltrated by terrorists, just to kill the president of the US. Good explosion scenes. Crap credibility. It is brown terrorists rather than Russians but apart from that...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:54 PM

"It is a crime. Evidence is usually withheld until a trial or enquiry.
The details of how Alexander Litvinenko was murdered did not emerge for months."

What absolute nonsense. Enough direct accusation has been made against Russia from on high by the great and the good to make any "fair trial" against Russia completely impossible. The whole thing has been prejudiced out of existence by over-hasty and clumsy pronouncements by anti-Russia ideologues. If you aspire to achieving fair judgement against the accused you keep ALL your cards close to your chest, not keep dribbling out bits of half-arsed, evidence-innocent assertions. There's been nothing new for over two weeks now except for febrile attempts at Putin character-assassinations, including accusations of Hitlerism against the one country that made more sacrifices than everyone else put together to defeat Hitler. Bloody disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:58 PM

So, who has slandered who, bobad or are we now just exchanging platitudes? If so, how about 'When you are in a hole, stop digging'.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 04:08 PM

The Normany landings could only occur because the eastern front swallowed vast axis resources, to Russia's great cost.
and of course Russia kicking ass in Syria is totally unrelated, as is the encirclement of Russia by US/NATO assets and further isolation of Iran.
Cannot be too many chess players posting here.
Makes you wonder who the evil empire really is?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 04:20 PM

Dave - seen it - an excellent laugh that one was...

Try "Atomic Blonde" which I think I linked earlier this thread..

------

off topic - there's a bloody good film about Irish monks v Norman invaders you might enjoy...

political intrigue v blind faith with lashings of hacking and skull bashing..

Pilgrimage (2017)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 04:25 PM

I'll give both a whirl PFR. Thanks for the tip.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 04:41 PM

Wow! The bad guy at the end just called someone 'comrade'. Very likely a Russian spy...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:15 PM

Stanron, mixed Neanderthal DNA is in our modern genome. It is most evident in Euro whites. Least present, Neanderthal traces are absent in African black people.
http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/new-studies-reveal-20-percent-neanderthal-genome-lives-modern-humans

It seems intuitive to me Vikings interbred spreading the genome east into Russia.

I met a man 50 years ago that appeared 50% Neanderthal a result of in breeding for centuries in the Zor Valley Region. Not pretty, but strong.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:41 PM

Donuel
the Swedish empire covered parts of Norway and many Baltic states and the Vikings travelled the long Russian rivers to the Black sea so that Viking genes in Russia were not unexpected to quote Michael Caine "not many people know that"

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:16 PM

Garrison Keillor did a Prairie Home Companion show in Ireland about ten years ago and made a light comment to the audience about the Viking 'gift' of red hair to the Irish. He got a distinctly stony response.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:42 PM

There's a notion that the Neanderthals were finally knocked on the head by the Campanian Ignimbrite eruption 39000 years ago. The source of that super-eruption was what is now the Campi Flegrei caldera, the Fiery Fields, just west of Naples (not Vesuvius, which is on the other side). Don't bank on it never going off on one again. San Gennaro, the patron saint of Napoli, was beheaded in the Solfatara crater there in the fourth century. His bones are gruesomely displayed in an urn in Naples Cathedral. I have it on good authority that Putin was responsible. I got the worst mosquito bite I've ever had in my life in La Solfatara in September 2013. Still got the scar on me leg. But I'd go again any day. The Bay of Naples to me is the alpha and omega, the beginning and end of everything that matters.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:40 PM

Watching the continuing Salisbury clean up on the news tonight,
and noticing pigeons milling around the feet of the bio suit enclosed emergency services...

Wot about dead pigeons then, nothing on the news about them....
you'd think the feathery little shitbags would be on their backs legs up in the air
all around that bench....

Pigeons got natural immunity to Russian nerve agents then...?????????????

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 12:47 PM

Steve,
What absolute nonsense. Enough direct accusation has been made against Russia from on high by the great and the good to make any "fair trial" against Russia completely impossible.

You can not put a country in the dock, silly.
In the Alexander Litvinenko case, the agent accused of administering the poison would have been tried if we could have extradited him.

Russia was openly accused in that case as in this.
As I said, the details of the investigation were not released as the evidence was found. That never happens.
Do you really believe that no evidence has yet been find by either police or security services, or that the scientists know nothing but the general type of nerve agent?
How naive!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 12:57 PM

Dave,
"Not everyone who has the known facts is convinced so there is an element of doubt."

Yes. They just say highly probable and no plausible alternative.
Absolute proof is rarely possible and not required for a conviction.
Just "beyond reasonable doubt."
That is clearly the situation here because guilt is assumed by all those who have the evidence.

Why do you dismiss the assessment of every EU government and your own party?
What have you got that they are all missing?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 01:11 PM

Kerith - if folks in authority you don't trust demand you believe all they say, what would be your gut response...???

.. so I'll opt for cautious scepticism...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 01:25 PM

It's the 21st century, of world wide social networks, and higher educated populations...
...the days of 'sir knows best, accept what sir says without question, and do what sir insists' are over..

.. and it's about effin time 'sir' realised this....


REALITY CHECK - of course 'sir' holds all the cards and pulls all the strings,
deperately clinging to power over all of us until the bitter end....

Though 'sir' obviously has a nice safe blast & nerve agent proofed bunker lined up for the chosen elite...

You won't be one of them Keith...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 01:27 PM

Now we play the human interest angle for all it is worth:

Three children had to be taken to hospital after a former Russian double agent, who was later poisoned with a nerve agent, gave them bread to feed ducks, according to a security source.

The three boys reportedly underwent check-ups, including a blood test, because authorities feared they may have been exposed to novichok.

The substance was used in the attack on 66-year-old Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia, 33, on March 4.

The children had apparently come into contact with Skripal at Riverside Park, in Salisbury, after he handed them the bread, with the youngest of the group also apparently eating some of it.

It is reported the ducks subsequently went quwackers.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 01:29 PM

"You can not put a country in the dock, silly."

And why do you think I put "fair trial" in speech marks, Keith? If I'm silly you're a big girl's blouse.

No, wait, there are no "ifs" about it. You ARE a big girl's blouse. And a sucker for believing everything that politicians on only your side of the fence say. And how come you are using legalistic terms such as "beyond reasonable doubt" which apply to jury trials against a country when you've just told us that it can't be put in the dock because it's a country? Go back to bed, get up again and try to get Sunday off to a proper start this time.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 02:26 PM

Better put in a link otherwise some might think I am making it up.


http://metro.co.uk/2018/03/25/children-hospitalised-poisoned-russian-spy-gave-bread-feed-ducks-7414979/
check the photos
Note 1: They are only clingfilming the top of the park bench.
Note 2: The protective gear they are wearing is of a lesser order of protection than the full NBC suits seen earlier in a fetching shade of yellow (with BA)
Note 3: IF analysis of the agent is several weeks away why the confidence in reducing the level of protection for operatives?

Perhaps such facts should not be highlighted but having played about in contaminated ground,with chemicals poisonous by inhalation, ingestion or skin contact, and with radioactive sources at various times, I take an interest in such facts.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 02:38 PM

The cinema world of fiction is so littered with movies depicting fake atomic/bio/chemical hazard disasters
used as cover ups by Govts to hide nefarious conspiracies,
that we must begin to wonder if real world intelligence agencies are looking to classic hollywood for inspiration...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 05:23 AM

Steve,
And a sucker for believing everything that politicians on only your side of the fence say.

Huh? Unusually, all politicians on every side of the fence are in agreement on this.
You would have to be a real conspiracy nut to believe they are all in on it!

And how come you are using legalistic terms such as "beyond reasonable doubt" which apply to jury trials against a country when you've just told us that it can't be put in the dock because it's a country?

I was talking about assessing guilt. Why should we set a higher bar than is required for jury criminal trials?

You people can believe in international nefarious conspiracies involving all EU governments, USA and even Public Health England to deceive us all, but I find your case laughable.

(BTW Steve, it appears I was right and you were wrong about Labour's hard left too.)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 05:46 AM

I agree. Putin is a criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 05:50 AM

"I was right and you were wrong about Labour's hard left too.)
"I'm the king of the castle" again Keith
"I was talking about assessing guilt."
Which you rejected outright when it came to paedophile Tory Ministers managed to destroy the evidence against them
Yo can't have it both ways Keith
They are either proved guilty or they are not
In both cases here - both the Russians and Heath and co are probably guilty of what the evidence at hand suggests   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 06:17 AM

What Labour hard left?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 06:43 AM

Jim,
paedophile Tory Ministers

None has ever been identified.
You resort to making shit up again!

Steve,
What Labour hard left?

This one.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/niamh-carroll/jeremy-corbyn_b_10703540.html

Corbyn has now said what I always said and you denied.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 06:56 AM

More disparate threads.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/936928/brexit-news-eu-exclude-uk-galileo-space-network-macron-france

Now the council will do your washing!

http://www.itv.com/news/2018-03-23/bench-where-skripal-pair-found-collapsed-removed-amid-spy-poison-probe/
I guess the fireman in the photo is expendable or are the white helmets directing the action?

https://news.sky.com/story/spy-poisoning-novichok-inventor-says-hundreds-could-be-at-risk-for-years-11287880

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 06:58 AM

"None has ever been identified. You resort to making shit up again!"
You are defending the indefensible again
There is far more actual evidence against the Paedos than there is against the Russians aganist whom there are only accusations
I have no intention of allowing you to reopen this again - I raised the case only as an example of your double standards - my point is made, so let's move on.
Russia is now accused of the attempted to assassinate two Ukranian politicians
"It's getting to ne a habit with them" as the song nearly said
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:32 AM

Well, Keith, Niamh Carroll clearly wasn't keeping up last year when Corbyn amazed the nation by robbing the feckless Theresa of her majority against all the odds and in the face of week after week of brainless personal attacks, including (as now, as ever) from dozens of disaffected ex-Blairites in addition to those from braying, complacent Tories. I note that one of them, head loser Liz Kendall, is one of those trying to whip up yet another firestorm against him. So much for the hard left bubble. Bloody big bubble if you ask me. What a load of nonsense. You wouldn't bet a large sum against him winning next time, would you?

Anyway, what hard left?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:35 AM

Ians, what firemen?
The contamination of the bench will by now have ben assessed and appropriate protection worn. Earlier they wore full protection because the level of risk was unknown.
I note that you do think Public Health England is part of the gobal conspiracy to deceive us over this. How funny!

Jim,
You are defending the indefensible again

I am not defending anyone.
I would never defend a paedo, but there are no Tory paedo ministers to defend anyway.
You always resort to changing the subject and making up shit when you lose an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:40 AM

Steve,


This one.
https://labourlist.org/2017/11/is-there-a-hard-left-purge-of-moderates-going-on-in-labour/

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:40 AM

"I am not defending anyone."
Course you're not Keith - you are just sayinbg the guilty are innocent - different thing altogether (not)
"You always resort to changing the subject"
No I am not, but you seen happy to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:43 AM

Jim,
you are just sayinbg the guilty are innocent

Who am I sayinb are innocent?
I have not said that about anyone!
Are you dreaming or deranged?
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT JIM?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:47 AM

Only questions, Keith. A healthy party that's asking questions of itself. Pity your shambolic lot don't do it more often. .

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:15 AM

Bugger my long post did'nt... so one more time....

"Huh? Unusually, all politicians on every side of the fence are in agreement on this.
You would have to be a real conspiracy nut to believe they are all in on it!"

ok, I will immediately dispute all politicians - just because you say it, doesn't make it so...

and.. if you had read my opening post, I stated the specific intended purpose of this thread
is to have fun playfully exploring creative conspiracy theories which could be generated from this incident... the wackier the better...


You would have to be a real pedantic dullard who takes things far too literally to not enjoy toying with belief they are all in on it...!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:18 AM

btw.. Can we try not giving Keith opportunity to rake over past grievences, it's too boring to wade through...
especially on a Monday morning..

Do not goad the keith...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:18 AM

Move on Ketih - you've had your say for the rich and famous perves and got the thread closed in doing so
Address your double standards now added to by complaining about my drifting a thread then making an effort to continue doing so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:21 AM

good bloke Jim...

Keith ought be welcome in this thread as long as he stays concisely on topic...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:47 AM

Why do you dismiss the assessment of every EU government and your own party?

I have not dismissed anything. I am keeping an open mind.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:47 AM

https://e3.365dm.com/18/03/1096x616/skynews-salisbury-poisoning_4250208.jpg?bypass-service-worker&20180308150942

Perhaps I was wrong and it was merely a "meet and greet" for contagious yellow aliens that might spontaneously self ignite.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:55 AM

Or maybe the firemen have a misplaced belief in the efficacy of chequer tape as a barrier.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 09:02 AM

They look like those anglers who spend a fortune kitting thenmselves out with all the right tackle and protective outdoor gear,
then spend all their time uner a brolly-tent drinking tea and napping, never even catching a single tiddler...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 11:10 AM

Pfr,
ok, I will immediately dispute all politicians - just because you say it, doesn't make it so...

OK. Name one.

Jim,
you are just sayinbg the guilty are innocent

OK Jim.
If I have ever said that anyone was innocent of anything, quote me.
If you can't, you reveal yourself yet again as being nothing but a filty liar.

Dave,
I have not dismissed anything. I am keeping an open mind.

They say that there is no plausible alternative explanation other than Russia is guilty, and have acted accordingly.
Do you think their assessment wrong? Why?

Ians, the tape marks the limit of the warm zone. Outside no protection is required. The fire service is there to wash down contaminated people.
The people in yellow suits have come from the hot zone into the warm zone and are preparing to remove their suits. The bins are to receive them. The people in white suits are to assist them.
Standard procedure.
https://chemm.nlm.nih.gov/decontamination.htm

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 11:11 AM

And they keep putting their hands in little plastic boxes full of wriggling multicoloured maggots, then into a box of stale spam, then they eat their butties with the same unwashed hands, and what about when they need a wee, and they always look miserable and as though they'd like to kill you for walking past them. But at least they're keeping fit and enjoying themselves...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 11:19 AM

"Pfr,
ok, I will immediately dispute all politicians - just because you say it, doesn't make it so...

OK. Name one."

NO... stop demanding we dance to your tune....

If you used to be a teacher and got away with setting kids heavy burdensome homework,
well we aint gonna put up with it here...

Hey teacher.. leave those kids alone....

Besides which, I only have so much time to waste on mudcat, and I have an idea to prepare for you which might take up most of it...
or not at all, if something more important crops up...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 11:23 AM

PFR,
OK. Name one."

NO... stop demanding we dance to your tune....

Then I repeat,
Unusually, all politicians on every side of the fence are in agreement on this.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 11:25 AM

PFR, if there are any, name one.
"just because you say it, doesn't make it so."

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 11:29 AM

'alls' a bit dogmaticaly total innit Keith...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 11:40 AM

Do you think their assessment wrong? Why?

The second question presupposes that you know the answer to the first. I am not going to be drawn into that futile argument.

I have said on a number of occasions already that there is an obvious element of doubt in 'their assesment'. There is no point in me saying it again but, once more, if they were certain it would move from being very likely to being absolutely sure. The lack of alternative argument fails to conclusively prove anything.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:15 PM

Ians, the tape marks the limit of the warm zone. Outside no protection is required.
Nice try!
      How it works is source, then safe buffer zone securely marked, then safe zone outside. Also for any airborne pathogen or gas you need a wind sock so you know which way to evacuate. Played about in hydrogen sulphide environments often enough to know the procedures blindfold.( one good lung full and you get an instant lesson on how to sit on a cloud and twang a harp) The area cordoned off had differing levels of protection inside. The white suits have open cuffs neck,legs and arms.
Also if you were serious you would not have the people all mixed up together as shown and I would expect to see shower units for decontamination of the suits.
I am afraid either the photograph is poorly shot and the personnel improperly briefed or more likely it was staged by a halfwit.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:20 PM

It will be interesting to see if Maggie May moved from her limp-wristed "reckless" stance to taking up the suggestion that Britain should penalise the many hundreds of wealthy Russians with Russian Government connections, who have taken up residence in London   
It has been suggested that some of these are working for the Russian government as agents and information gatherers
Given the Government's rejection of the suggestion that they should do similar with Assad's representatives, I doubt it - interfering with big business interests seems a bridge too far
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:27 PM

Has our Govt explored the possibility that it might have been China...

Digging a dastardly yellow peril tunnel with a tiny enough exit hole to direct a spray of nerve agent,
that came out just under the park bench in Salisbury...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:54 PM

Dave,
if they were certain it would move from being very likely to being absolutely sure

May today in Parliament, "We are quite clear that Russia is responsible for this act."
No politician present expressed dissent, including Corbyn.

EU countries plus USA and Canada have expelled diplomats. That is never done on mere suspicion.

PFR,
'alls' a bit dogmaticaly total innit Keith...???

Yes, and I am right about it.

Nice try!

I linked to the procedure and I have had training, though more than 10 years ago.

. Also for any airborne pathogen or gas

It was not.

The area cordoned off had differing levels of protection inside.

Yes. The yellow suits are required for the hot zone, and are removed in the warm zone where less protection is required.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:59 PM

"No politician present expressed dissent, including Corbyn."

maintaing polite tactful silence is not and never has been the same as 'agreement'..
which I'd be sure you well know...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:59 PM

Missed one.
Ians,
The white suits have open cuffs neck,legs and arms.

No they do not. The cuffs are sealed by gloves, the legs tied off over boots, and the hood tied off over the respirator.
Military CBW suits seal in the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:00 PM

maintaing polite tactful silence is not and never has been the same as 'agreement'..

Many spoke, including Corbyn who supported the government on its actions.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:14 PM

Didn't see that...
But i did catch another news item which I'd like to refer to in this thread,
but am mulling it over for 2nd thoughts in case of reigniting distracting old thread creep dust ups...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:15 PM

Something Corbyn did say.
"I recognise that anti-Semitism has surfaced within the Labour Party, and has too often been dismissed as simply a matter of a few bad apples.
"This has caused pain and hurt to Jewish members of our party and to the wider Jewish community in Britain."

Cheers Jezza.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:22 PM

Keith - ooh.. don't tempt me...
I've still got to decide if I can be bothered transferring audio off a BBC new's interview I chanced on recording today,
then uploading a link...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:37 PM

We are quite clear that Russia is responsible for this act.

Sounds definite to me. Let's watch them spin this now.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:43 PM

Keith's been sitting at his keyboard all day desperately plotting as to how he could dredge up the ould an*is*mit*sm bollix again. It was only a matter of time. So bloody predictable, so off-topic. Don't rise to it, lads.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:58 PM

I could link what I found here, but best I start a new thread on an old theme....


Though here's one for bob..

I was going to use this extract to weave into my media link..
shame to waste it in a thread about creative conspiracy theories...

From Sky News entitled

"Jeremy Corbyn 'figurehead of anti-Semitic culture' - Jewish leaders"

https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-figurehead-of-anti-semitic-culture-jewish-leaders-11304618

"On Monday, the Guido Fawkes website revealed the Labour leader is still a member of another Facebook group,
titled "The Labour Party Supporter",
in which members have blamed the attempted murder of Sergei and Yulia Skripal in Salisbury on Israel or Islamic State."

Go on bob - work yerself up into a lather...!!!!!!!

But please try to contain yourself to just concentrating on the inventive conspiracy theory angle..

Wow.. good guido - a conspiracy theory about a conspiracy theory... double points scored by a premier leaugue libertarian nutter wanker..

[a nanker...???]

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 02:01 PM

oops.. "shame to waste it, and not use it in a thread about creative conspiracy theories

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 02:25 PM

"No they do not. The cuffs are sealed by gloves, the legs tied off over boots, and the hood tied off over the respirator.
Military CBW suits seal in the same way."

Well you may wish to test such protection in an environment containing an unidentified agent. I do not think I would. That word seal and suggested method of ensuring it gives me serious misgivings.
My safety training has included using radioactive sources, working in contaminated ground ranging from suspected anthrax sites to chemical contamination, and hazardous atmospheres. So I have some familiarity with the various levels of hazard recognised, although I am far from expert especially on the latest legislation.
Presuming a nerve gas to be lethal through absorption, ingestion and inhalation then only a totally sealed protective suit fits the bill.
If you are rash enough to believe those little white suits, gloves, boots and respirators will do the job all I can say is you'll make a good canary. If you have zero knowledge of the agent being used a thinking person would go for the maximum level of protection. If you have knowledge of the volatility or particulate nature, density of the agent etc. then perhaps lower levels of protection can be employed.
But we are awaiting analysis we are told. If the substance is known, why invite international experts to analyse it? Supposedly we have no idea if it is liquid or solid,or how it reacts to wind, rain, evaporation??? Until this agent is identified and it's complete properties determined, caution would dictate a maximum level of protection. I am afraid for the majority of Joe public, wearing a white paper suit(level5) is regarded as equivalent to a bright yellow fully self contained suit(level1).Existing European directives recognise at least 6 levels of hazard.

The way this story has evolved highlights, for me, some rather glaring inconsistancies even when subjected to the most cursory investigation. My feeling is that the little snack of an unfortunate poisoning is being built up into a multicourse multimediafest. Perhaps the question to be asked is not who? but why?(the hype!) I am convinced it is a distraction or more likely, a means to an end.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 03:00 PM

As Mandy would say: They would, wouldn't they?

https://www.rt.com/uk/422252-porton-down-lab-chemical-skripal/

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 03:09 PM

"‘No way’ nerve agent could escape UK lab?"

How many times have we heard similar denials at the start of a zombie apocalypse movie...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:40 PM

Real interesting that major nations(Germany included) , including Trump, have cooperated in kicking out a significant number of Russian 'diplomats'.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:09 PM

It's no more than political posturing. The West doesn't like the way Putin, in the eyes of his own people, has restored the status and dignity of their nation after they'd been a basket case following the collapse of the USSR. The West is looking for ways to attack and undermine him, and the western nations may well have surprised him by the near-unanimity of their actions. In the scheme of things the actions on both sides don't matter very much. This time next year the numbers of diplomats on both sides will be recovering. That's how it always goes. There's been a lot of confected outrage over what might not even have been an attack on two people - we still don't know what happened in Salisbury. Save the real outrage for Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq, Libya and Syria.
.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:37 PM

It's no more than political posturing.

No it's not, it's a clear indication that they all know who did it.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:50 PM

Start your own lynch mob. Who needs evidence? They're reds and what more do you need!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 12:58 AM

Ians,
Well you may wish to test such protection in an environment containing an unidentified agent. I do not think I would.

That is what all NATO militaries wear for NBC protection including against nerve agents.
I have been in a CS gas chamber in such kit many times. You know when it leaks. If you fit it correctly it does not.

Those pictures have been around the world. Apart from a few conspiracy nuts, no-one has found them untoward.

Dave,
The subsequent mismanagement of the whole affair by our government is an absolute disgrace.

What mismanagement? All the parties support the government's action.

Not everyone who has the known facts is convinced so there is an element of doubt.

Who?

Steve,
I predict that this story will not run and not run.

Ha ha ha.
It has started a global crisis that is still growing!
As with Labour's anti-Semitism problem and every other issue, I was right all along (notwithstanding all your name calling , abuse and ridicule.)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 02:56 AM

I have already gone through my reasons for everything I have posted on here. No need to go through it again in the usual repetitive circular way.

PFR - Are you still keeping count so you can let us know when to resume normal service :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 04:49 AM

I have already gone through my reasons for everything I have posted on here.

Not those.

The subsequent mismanagement of the whole affair by our government is an absolute disgrace.

What mismanagement? All the parties support the government's actions.

Not everyone who has the known facts is convinced so there is an element of doubt.

Who?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 04:52 AM

"What mismanagement? All the parties support the government's actions."

Non sequitur.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 04:57 AM

No. If there was mismanagement the other parties would have exposed it.
That is their job.
In fact they all supported what the government did.

That makes Dave's accusation look false.
That he refuses to answer is even more suspicious.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 04:58 AM

"I have been in a CS gas chamber in such kit many times. You know when it leaks. If you fit it correctly it does not."

As I said you would make a good canary. Better to use a suit designed not to leak. Especially if leaks have fatal rather than uncomfortable outcomes

Meanwhile a little background for those that are not totally bored with the fiasco.
https://theconversation.com/novichok-the-deadly-story-behind-the-nerve-agent-in-sergei-skripal-spy-attack-93562

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:05 AM

Out of respect for PFR's request, I have kept civil. I shall say this once only.

Keith, you know my views about you and your attitude. I am not prepared to discuss anything with you at anything other the most cursory level. If you cannot even be bothered looking up what I have already said, that only goes to underline why I do this. Now, politely for the last time,

Kicking off, all guns blazing, is the wrong approach in this and many other situations.
Everyone who says 'highly likely' rather than 'absolutely certain' has doubts.

That is all I have have said and all I have to say to say on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:06 AM

Fact? Rumour?Hearsay?

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/03/what-we-know-about-novichok/556148/

The last sentence is a riot.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:11 AM

Better to use a suit designed not to leak.

Fitted properly it does not.

Better to use a suit designed not to leak.

The suit has to enable movement and work, and to allow the wearer to eat, drink and excrete in a contaminated environment.

A foolproof version has yet to be invented, but with training and practise it is reasonably safe.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:13 AM

Dave, you mean you can't answer.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:33 AM

"What mismanagement? "
To describe a terrorist attack of this nature as a "reckless" is to reduce it to not wearing a seatbelt or to using a mobile phone while you are driving
Had it been an attack by a Muslim group there would be no equivocation of this sort
May has had no alternative but to take action, the behaviour of whoever did it has been so blatant
This is a list of mysterious deaths, and all
related to Russia and only one not in Britain.
Stephen Moss, 2003. .
Stephen Curtis, 2004.
Igor Ponomarev, 2006. .
Alexander Litvinenko, 2006. .
Yuri Golubev, 2007.
Daniel McGrory, 2007
Badri Patarkatsishvili, 2008.
Gareth Williams, 2010
Paul Castle, 2010.
Alexander Perepilichnyy, 2012
Robbie Curtis, 2012. .
Boris Berezovsky, 2013.
Johnny Elichaoff, 2014.
Scot Young, 2014.
Matthew Puncher, 2016.
And now the latest one

Two emigré Russians have claimed to be under threat from Russian assasination
Affter fifteen years of these incidents, Theresa got up in parliament and described the Salisbury attack as "reckless"
I suggest you change Russia into "Iran" or "China", or "Cuba" and tell us how "reckless" they would have been then.
Theresa the Tosser appears to be doing a balancing act between the unavoidability of taking action over this possible 16th attack and Britain's financial and political interests
How "reckless" is that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:39 AM

I have answered. The fact that you will not accept the answer is neither here nor there.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:57 AM

Why bother humouring this eejit by suggesting he needs an answer Dave ?
Life really is too short
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:57 AM

Dave - My mother's cycle of repetition is on average 3 - 10 minutes.
Her ability to listen and understand is noticably diminishing.
But she does still try to be agreeable, rather than absolutely refuse to listen.
She does accept that she has problems coping, even when she feels there is nothing wrong and we are all getting at her,
and making her upset.

It is severely frustrating and a trial of my strength and patience.
An afternoon with my mother is exhausing and does my head in.
.. and she is one of the two people I most love in this world.

Let's just say it's good training for dealing with mudcat and it's aging members.....

All communication with my mother is verbal, it would be interesting to see how her condition would manifest itself
if she had enthusiastic access to a keyboard and internet forums....???

At least she understands reality enough to still loathe tories...

So, while I'm prepared to continue, juries out on how much Keith is capable of co-operating for our greater good.
Can we see if our little experiment in tolerance in this one thread has any meaningful effect and value...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 06:01 AM

I'd like to be positive and hope Keith is reflecting on his negative impact on mudcat threads,
and willingly trying to curb his excesses...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 06:04 AM

Keith:
From the horses mouth! I will say this once.

http://www.population-protection.eu/prilohy/casopis/29/202.pdf

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2016_08/20160802_140801-cep-first-responders-CBRN-eng.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 06:15 AM

My Mum is the same, PFR. She needed more care that we could provide even with having meals and carers coming in 3 or 4 times a day so she is now in a lovely care home where there is round the clock care and everything is done for her. We visit at least once every couple of weeks and try to spend some time with her but, as you say, it is very draining. No point in getting frustrated as we know the cause and I can cope with answering the same questions every couple of minutes because she deserves my care and respect.

Not so on here. We do not know the cause and certain posters do not deserve respect. My hat is off to you for trying but I fear you are pissing in the wind.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 06:38 AM

Keith's raison d'etre is to protect the honour and good reputation of the good and great of this world - the higher up the tree, the more they are in need of protection - he actually has a sliding scale in which ordinary political perves are less important that those at the top
Good luck in changing that Dave
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 07:04 AM

Dave - my reasons here are mostly self interest - I'm sick of one person constantly monopolising and bogging down
the few BS threads I take an active interest in;
threads where I hope to learn from others more experienced and knowledgable than myself - left or right of the divide...

Keith habitually throttles good discussions, and kills any positive opportunity to learn from other voices.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 07:42 AM

Keith habitually throttles good discussions, and kills any positive opportunity to learn from other voices.

No. I just challenge the views of you people, and you can not deal with that.

The funny thing is that the views I put are mainstream, which shows how divorced from reality you are out there on the far Left.

On this, my views are the same as those of our government, all our political parties, and all the liberal democracies of the world.
Your views are just those of a few conspiracy nuts.
And I am supposed to be the one killing the discussion!
Ha ha ha.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 07:46 AM

That is a pure troll post.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 07:47 AM

Your views are just those of a few conspiracy nuts.

That diplomacy is better than hostility?
That those who would rather wait for the truth are right?

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 07:52 AM

That is a pure troll post.

No, yours is a pure troll post.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 08:00 AM

What next bobad? My Dad'd a policeman?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 08:00 AM

Keith - I've said it too many times before... and you persist in completely ignoring the point...!!!

It's not the content of what you post, but the sheer quantity and frequency of your posts,
deluging and swamping previously good readable threads..
That is why I consider you such an anti social mudcatter and a massive problem that needs to be addressed...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 08:54 AM

Please don't let this be about Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 09:10 AM

Too late, too late was the cry!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 09:38 AM

I did not advocate hostility.
My views were those of your party and every other party and all democracies.
Your views were extreme, not mine.

I do not post excessively and my posts are short.

You do not have the right to post your views unchallenged.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 10:12 AM

Keith - you....................................



feel free to fill in the blank, because you don't read or reply to what I actually write..

So go on, in as many words as you like, take complete control your script.
Disregard everything you don't want to hear.
Make it say what you want it to say.. because you will always do that, won't you...