Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:04 PM

> Belief and plausibility are not requirements of balladry.

Indeed not, but surely suspension of disbelief is a requirement, for ballads as for most kinds of fictional story apart from tall tales where the implausibility is the point.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 02:32 PM

Hi, Richard.
Belief and plausibility are not requirements of balladry.

The naked woman motif is present in some of the continental versions, the French for instance.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 01:26 PM

Feature D, the maid asks him to turn his back for "it is not fitting that a naked woman he should see", does indeed come in many of the English language versions, and yet it seems the least plausible of the methods by which the girl could overcome the villain. But then seducing and murdering one king's daughter after another seems an overly complicated way of acquiring riches. I find it easier to suspend disbelief for some of the ballads involving magic than for this one.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:12 AM

BTW, I like the Irish version.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:09 AM

The changing of the scene/method of the killing is to be expected in such a widespread ballad. In some of the more central/possibly earlier international versions the Knight gives the girl the option of being killed by his sword, hung or drowned, so the suggestion of drowning was already implanted. If I remember correctly it's the French and Polish versions that move towards the drowning method, and therefore most likely the source of the English ballad.

Whatever, it is the girl's reversal that is the crux of the story. The method is not as important (IMO).

What Child's (Grundtvig's) synopsis of the continental versions doesn't tell us is whether as the ballad moved from language to language did the basic story just pass on or were there direct translations of ballad to ballad. The probable answer is both. I look forward to seeing if Kemppinen throws any light on this.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 11:49 PM

Hi Steve,

If all the variants by Child and Kemmpinen are types of fruit (i.e. maid outwits false knight and kills him) then most of the analogues are different like apples are different than oranges. I think I'll look more carefully at the analogues.

The English speaking versions in general have

A: The false knight proposes to the maid or seduces the maid through a magic charm.
B: He entices her to bring her father's gold and her mother's jewels (fee) and two steeds.
C: They ride to the seashore where the knight has already drowned six maids; the knight tells the maid to take off her clothes, since they are too "costily" to rot in the salty sea.
D: The maid asks him to turn his back for "it is not fitting that a naked woman he should see.
E: She throws him in the water and refuses to rescue him.
F: When she returns home, the parrot asks her where she's been; sometimes the father is woken. She promises the bird a golden and ivory cage or other rewards and parrot keeps the murder a secret.

Even if you take off the ending with the parrot-- the false knight and maid ride horses to water where they stop and he reveals he's killed six (or seven) king's daughters. Before she takes off her expensive clothes she tricks him to turn his head so he won't see her naked. She throws him in the water and he drowns.

I don't think there are analogues with these distinct characteristics. Child 4A is quite different and part of Child 4B. I'll look again at the analogues.

This Irish oral dialogue version from Connamara appeared in "Once a Week," Volume 11, edited by Eneas Sweetland Dallas, 1864 and has the naked woman scene which needs to be part of the analogue-- but it's missing other parts:

"We had another like him, sir, but he was a murthering villain."

"Who was he?"

"Captain Webb."

"What did he do?"

"He used to ill-use young women, and then strip thorn and throw them into the 'Murthuring Hole,' which is not far from here."

"Come, now, Master Joyce, you must not be asking me to believe too much, or you may weaken my faith in Mao Namara and his famous mare."

"The devil a lie in what I'm going to tell you, sir."

"Well, goon."

"Well, sir, this Captain Webb one day met a fine handsome girl, beautifully dressed, with a bran new cloak and gown. It was near the mouth of the Murthering Hole that he met her. He first sthruve to get his will of her, but he couldn't, for she was a very decent girl; so he tares off her cloak and drags her to the mouth of the Hole, and says, 'Strip.'

"Goon."

"Well, sir, she takes off her new gown, and her flannel petticoat, saving your presence, and then she falls down on her knees and says to him, 'Oh, for the Vargin's sake, turn your head aside while I take off the rest of my things."

"Well?"

"Well, sir, he turned his back to her and his face to the Murthering Hole, when she sprung up and made a dhrive at him, and pushed him in."

"And killed him?"

"Of coorse."

"Bravo!"
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 04:37 PM

'comparing apples with oranges'. Not sure I agree with this analogy, Richie. Having recently read through all of Child's synopses, it's possible to see evolution and progressions from one country/language to another and to show how they are related. I do admit that in the cases of some Child Ballads the connections can be quite tentuous and debatable but with number 4, at least with most of the versions Child looks at, the connections are real. If one tries to compare a Portuguese version with say a Norwegian version the connections might seem very tenuous but having an overview as in Child's headnotes one can trace development and links.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:45 AM

Hi,

The Ballad of Lady Isabel and the False Knight by Finnish author Iivar Kemppinen was published in 1954. He studied 1865 variants of this ballad from all over the world. I've put excerpts on my website here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/ballad-of-lady-isabel--the-false-knight--kemppinen.aspx

It's important to differentiate between the various similar themes found mainly in Europe, Scandinavia and the Americas. This study is confined largely to the English speaking countries. It's impossible to say when and where the English speaking versions originated and comparing the "collective" murder ballads or stories is like comparing apples with oranges- yes, they're both similar fruits which is saying: yes, they're murder ballads with a similar theme.

That each murder of the seducer by the maid is given local settings is only natural since similar murders have occurred throughout the world. Some are adaptations of this similar "abduction of the maid" theme which already existed while others are new versions of the same story.

Here is an outline of the ballad story as given by Kemppinen in 1954:

a: A noble and foreign-looking man (false knight) approaches a young maid (king's daughter), charms her with his music or promises and carries her off in order to kill her.
b: Having discovered his intentions, revealed either by the knight himself or in some other way, the girl, being the cleverer and more shrewd of the two, finds a way to save herself and
c: kills the knight,
d: The final scene tells of what the maid does when the murder is accomplished and how her world reacts to the deed. Subordinate characters are the father and mother or brother and sister of the king's daughter or the knight, or sometimes all of these.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 01:26 PM

Yes, the rewritten ballad is almost worthless but the information that it was printed by the Dicey-Marshall dynasty is priceless. That now makes it very likely that the TOK is the original in English and the Scottish version Child D is based upon it rather than the other way round. The other Child versions are either based on D or are concoctions of their editors. So far the earlier version hasn't come to light but it may well still do so.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 11:38 AM

Hi,

This heavily rewritten print version comes from an unknown informant who sent a letter to the editor which was printed in The Table Book, Volume 1, p. 129 by William Hone. The informant lived on Grange-road Bermondsey (London Borough of Southwark, in south London), and dated his letter Jan. 8, 1827.

What interesting is his notes which date the print version (Outlandish Knight) of John Pitts (London printer 1765- 1844), who he talked with about the ballad, back to c.1802 and further back to the late 1700s as printed by Pitt's employer John Marshall, son of printer Richard Marshall (d. 1779):

AN INEDITED BALLAD.

To the Editor.

Dear Sir, —A friend of mine, who resided for some years on the borders, used to amuse himself by collecting old ballads, printed on halfpenny sheets, and hawked up and down by itinerant minstrels. In his common-place book I found one, entitled "The Outlandish Knight," evidently, from the style, of considerable antiquity, which appears to have escaped the notice of Percy, and other collectors. Since then I have met with a printed one, from the popular press of Mr. Pitts, the six-yards for-a-penny song-publisher, who informs me that he has printed it "ever since he was a printer, and that Mr. Marshall, his predecessor, printed it before him." The ballad has not improved by circulating amongst Mr. Pitts's friends; for the heroine, who has no name given her in my friend's copy, is in Mr. Pitts's called "Polly;" and there are expressions contra bonos more. These I have expunged; and, to render the ballad more complete, added a few stanzas, wherein I have endeavoured to preserve.

Outlandish Knight- "Six go true, The seventh askew."

An outlandish knight from the north lands came,
And he came a wooing to me;
He told me he'd take me unto the north lands,
And I should his fair bride be.

A broad, broad shield did this strange knight wield.
Whereon did the red-cross shine,
Yet never, I ween, had that strange knight been
In the fields of Palestine.

And out and spake this strange knight,
This knight of the north countrie,
O, maiden fair, with the raven hair,
Thou shalt at my bidding be.

Thy sire he is from home, ladye,
For he hath a journey gone,
And his shaggy blood-hound is sleeping sound,
Beside the postern stone.

Go, bring me some of thy fatber's gold,
And some of thy mother's fee,
And steeds twain of the best, in the stalls that rest;
Where they stand thirty and three.

She mounted her on her milk-white steed.
And he on a dapple grey,
And they forward did ride, till they reacb'd the sea-side,
Three hours before it was day.

Then out and spake this strange knight,
This knight of the north countrie,
O, maiden fair, with the raven hair,
Do thou at my bidding be.

Alight thee, maid, from thy milk-white steed.
And deliver it unto me;
Six maids have I drown'd, where the billows sound,
And the seventh one thou shalt be.

But first pull off thy kirtle fine,
And deliver it unto me;
Thy kirtle of green is too rich, I ween,
To rot in the salt, salt sea,

Pull off, pull off thy silken shoon,
And deliver them unto me;
Methinks that they are too fine and gay
To rot in the salt, salt sea.

Pull off, pull off thy bonnie green plaid.
That floats in the breeze so free;
It is woven fine with the silver twine,
And comely it is to see.

If I must pull off my bonnie' green plaid,
O turn thy back to me;
And gaze on the sun which has just begun
To peer o'er the salt, salt sea.

He turn'd his back on the damoselle
And gaz'd on the bright sunbeam-
She grasp'd him tight with her arms so white,
And plung'd him into the stream.

Lie there, sir knight, thou false-hearted wight,
Lie there instead of me;
Six damsels fair thou hast drown'd there,
But the seventh has drowned thee.

That ocean wave was the false one's grave,
For he sunk right hastily;
Though with dying voice faint, he pray'd to his saint,
And utter'd an Ave Marie.

No mass was said for that false knight dead,
No convent bell did toll;
But he went to his rest, unshriv'd and unblest-
Heaven's mercy on his soul!

She mounted her on her dapple-grey steed,
And led the steed milk-white;
She rode till she reach'd her father's hall,
Three hours before the night.

The parrot, hung in the lattice so high,
To the lady then did say,
Some ruffian, I fear, has led thee from home,
For thou hast been long away.

Do not prattle, my pretty bird,
Do not tell tales of me;
And thy cage shall be made of the glittering gold,
Instead of the greenwood tree.

The earl as he sat in his turret high,
On hearing the parrot did say,
What ails thee, what ails thee, my pretty bird?
Thou hast prattled the live-long day.

Well may I prattle, the parrot replied,
And call, brave earl, on thee;
For the cat has well nigh reach'd the lattice so high,
And her eyes are fix'd on me.

Well turn'd, well turn'd, my pretty bird,
Well turn'd, well turn'd for me;
Thy cage shall be made of the glittering gold,
Instead of the greenwood tree.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 02:44 PM

Hi,

The oldest extant version is "The False Knight Outwitted: A New Song" which is Child 4F, from Roxburghe Ballads, III, 449. In the catalogue of the British Museum it's listed "London? 1710?" A reprint date of 1780 is confirmed. There's no narrative introduction and it has an abbreviated ending with the "parrot" stanzas. The girl's name is "pretty Polly." It may be viewed online here: http://ebba.english.ucsb.edu/ballad/31135/transcription

1    'Go fetch me some of your father's gold,
And some of your mother's fee,
And I'll carry you into the north land,
And there I'll marry thee.'

2    She fetchd him some of her father's gold,
And some of her mother's fee;
She carried him into the stable,
Where horses stood thirty and three.

3    She leapd on a milk-white steed,
And he on a dapple-grey;
They rode til they came to a fair river's side,
Three hours before it was day.

4    'O light, O light, you lady gay,
O light with speed, I say,
For six knight's daughters have I drowned here,
And you the seventh must be.'

5    'Go fetch the sickle, to crop the nettle
That grows so near the brim,
For fear it should tangle my golden locks,
Or freckle my milk-white skin.'

6    He fetchd the sickle, to crop the nettle
That grows so near the brim,
And with all the strength that pretty Polly had
She pushd the false knight in.

7    'Swim on, swim on, thou false knight,
And there bewail thy doom,
For I don't think thy cloathing too good
To lie in a watry tomb.'

8    She leaped on her milk-white steed,
She led the dapple grey;
She rid till she came to her father's house,
Three hours before it was day.

9    'Who knocked so loudly at the ring?'
The parrot he did say;
'O where have you been, my pretty Polly,
All this long summer's day?'

10    'O hold your tongue, parrot,
Tell you no tales of me;
Your cage shall be made of beaten gold,
Which is now made of a tree.'

11    O then bespoke her father dear,
As he on his bed did lay:
'O what is the matter, my parrot,
That you speak before it is day?'

12    'The cat's at my cage, master,
And sorely frighted me,
And I calld down my Polly
To take the cat away.'

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:19 AM

Hi,

In his headnotes of Lady Isabel, Child's assertion in his first footnote ['The Elfin Knight' begins very much like A, but perhaps has borrowed its opening stanzas from this ballad] seems backwards to me. Buchan's text (Child A) is called "unreliable" by Ebsworth and considering Buchan's version is 150 later, it's likely that Child 4A is a recreation from 2A, the 1670 broadside.

Child 4A has no corroboration nor do the first two stanzas of 4B, also from Buchan. Child 4C published by Herd in 1776 may have been taken from an earlier print of Child 4D.

The ballad story of 4C and 4D seem to be the authentic story. This is not to say the Fause Sir John doesn't have a magical power over the maid to get her to ride away with him-- that power is a magic charm: "a charm frae aft his arm" which he attaches to her sleeve.

The Carpenter Collection's "May Colvin" sung by James Mason seems to be a version of Child C.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 10:19 PM

Hi,

Apparently "Water o the Weary Well," sung by Mrs James Christie is only the third extant version of Child B. The introduction (2 stanzas) is only found in Buchan's version which he also gave Motherwell.

The other is a fragment from Amelia Harris which Child gives in his end-notes:

43 Mony a time I rade wi my brown foal
      The water o Wearie's Wells,
'Leave aff, leave aff your gey mantle,
      It 's a' gowd but the hem;
Leave aff, leave [aff], it's far owre gude
      To weet i the saut see faem.'
5 She wade in, an he rade in,
      Till it took her to the knee;
Wi sighin said that lady gay
      'Sic wadin's no for me.'
* * *
9 He rade in, and she wade in,
      Till it took her to the chin;
Wi sighin said that ladie gay
      'I'll wade nae farer in.'
103 'Sax king's dochters I hae drowned,
      An the seventh you sail be.'
* * *
13 'Lie you there, you fause young man,
      Where you thought to lay me.'

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 09:37 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/K, pp. 12032-12033. Missing stanzas between 2 and 3 plus the 'parrot" ending. Almost no dialect.

May Colzean - sung by John Sutherland of Balruddery, Latheron, Caithness, Scotland. Learned from his mother, Margaret Cumming Sutherland about 1870

1 Fause Sir John his a wooing came,
To a maid of beauty rare;
May Colzean was this lady's name
Her father's only heir.

2 He courted her up, he courted her down,
He courted her into the hall,
Until he got this maid's consent
To mount and ride awa'.

3. He rode on, and she rode on
As fast as they could gae;
Until they reached a lonesome part,
An hour before it was day.

4. "Light down, light down, thou May Colzean,
Light down, light down, said he;
Here I have drowned seven lady's fair
The eighth one thou shalt be."

5. "Put off, put off, your jewels fine,
Put off your silken gown,
They are too fine and costlie
To rot in the salt sea foam.

6. "If I put off my silken gown,
Look you to the leaf of the tree,
For it nevr became a gentleman
A naked woman to see."

7. He's turned himself right 'round about,
To the leaf far of the tree;
She's twined her arms around his waist
And thrown him into the sea.

8. "O help, O help now, May Colzean,
O help or else I drown.
I'll take you home to your father's ha',
And safely set ye down."

9. "No help, no help, thou Fause Sir John
No help or pity for thee;
Here hast thou frowned seven ladies fair,
The eighth hast drowned thee."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 06:30 PM

Hi,

The Wells o' Wearie are located in Edinburgh's Holyrood Park at the foot of Arthur's Seat. They were located in private ground at the south end opposite Samson's Ribs and near the route of one of Scotland's first railways which opened in 1831.

Several Scottish songs from the early 1800s have a similar refrain. Among them are:

1. A song based on tradition by Perth native Alexander Maclagan (b. 1811) which is titled. "Wells o' Wearie" and begins:

"I daur ye meet me! I daur ye by the dirk!
And I'se meet thee, ne'er fear ye!
I sall rin thee through an' through, and slay thee in the mirk,
By the gloomie, gloomie Wells o' Wearie!"

2. A song by Alexander A. Ritchie who was born at Edinburgh, in 1816 titled Wells o' Wearie. Here are the first two stanzas:

Sweetly shines the sun on auld Edinbro' toun,
And mak's her look young and cheerie;
Yet I maun awa' to spend the afternoon
At the lanesome Wells o' Wearie.

And you maun gang wi' me, my winsome Mary Grieve,
There's nought in the world to fear ye;
For I ha'e ask'd your minnie, and she has gi'en ye leave
To gang to the Wells o' Wearie.

Motherwell wrote a poem titled "Wearie's well" which doesn't have a similar line.

"Water o the Weary Well," sung by Mrs James Christie is Child B but it's missing the opening stanzas.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 09:17 PM

Hi,

A second version (Child 4B) from Mrs Margaret Christie from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/B, p. 11506. Uses the "Lord Lovel" ending.

"Water o the Weary Well," sung by Mrs James Christie of 9 Newton Hill, learned from Jean Christie (b. 1833).

1. Step in, step in, my lady fair,
Nae harm shall thee befall;
For ofttimes here I've watered my steed
In the water o Weary Well, Well,
In the water o Weary Well.

2. The firstan step that she stepped in,
She stepped tee the knee;
An' sichen says the king's daughter,
This water's nae for me, me,
This water's nae for me.

3. "Step in, step in, my lady fair,
Nae harm shall thee befall;
For ofttimes here I've watered my steed
Wi the water o Weary Well, Well,
Wi' the water o Weary Well.

4. The neistan step that she stepped in,
She stepped tee the middle;
An' sichen says the king's daughter,
I've wat my gowden girdle, girdle,
I've wat my gowden girdle.

5. "Step in, step in, my lady fair,
Nae harm shall thee befall;
For ofttimes here I've watered my steed
Wi the water o Weary Well, Well,
Wi' the water o Weary Well.

6. The neistan step that she stepped in,
She stepped tee chin;
An' sichen says the king's daughter,
This would gar twa loves twyne, twyne,
This would gar twa loves twyne.

7 "Seven king's dochters I've droont here,
I' the water o the Weary Well,
And I'll mak you the eight yen ower them a'.
An' I'll ring the common bell bell,
An' I'll ring the common bell.

8 "O I am standing here," says she,
"This dowie death ti die,
Gin I had one kiss o your comely lips
I'm sure would comfort me, me,
I'm sure would comfort me.

9 He leaned him ower his high saddle,
Ti kiss her cheek an' chin,
An' she's taen him in her arms twa,
An' thrown him headlong in, in,
An' thrown him headlong in.

10. "Gin seven king's daughters ye've droont here,
In the water o the Weary Well,
I'll mak ye bridegroom ower them a',
An' I'll ring the bell mysel', sel'
An' I'll ring the bell mysel'."

11 Then aye she warsled, an' aye she swam,
Till she swam tee dry land;
She thanked God most cheerfully
For the danger she ower gane [came], gane,
For the danger she ower gane.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 07:25 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/3/A, p. 09093, there's another James Mason (also Masson) from Stonehaven who is an informant for Carpenter. Amusing, at least mildly, is "He's courted her butt,"

May Colvin - sung by James Mason of 4 Dawson's Building, Stonehaven, Scotland about 1930

1 Fause Sir John his a wooin' gaen,
Tae a maiden o' beauty rare;
May Colvin it was that lady's name
Her father's only heir.

2 He's courted her but[t], he's courted her ben,
An' he's courted her enti the hall,
Until he's gotten this lady's consent
It's for ti mount and ride awa'.

3 She's gaen enti her father's coffrum[1],
It's where his money lies,
She's taen the red and left the white,
And lightly she has tripped awa'.

4. She's gaen enti her father's stable,
It's just where a' his stablings stands,
She's taen the best an' left the worst,
That was enti her father's lands.

5. It's he's rode on, an' she's rode on
They rode a lang, lang summer's day;
Until they came tae a a broad river,
An erum o' the lonesome sea.

6. Loup off your steed, May Colvin,
Your bridal bed you see;
It's seven king's daughters I ha'e droont here
An' the eighth one I'll mak o' thee.

7   "Cast aff, cast aff, yer silks sae fine,
An' lay them on the stane,
They are too fine an' costilee
For to rot i' the saut-sea fame.

7 "Cast aff, cast off, yer hollin' smock,
An' lay them on the stane,
They are too fine an' costilee
For to rot i' the saut-sea fame.

8 "It's tern ye roon, ye Fause Sir John,
An' view the green leaves on the tree,
For it disna become a single man
A naked woman ti see."

9 He's tarned himself richt an' roon aboot,
Ti view the green leaves far off the trees;
An' she's taen him in her ain arms twa
An' thrown him headlong in the sea.

10 "It's haud yer grip, May Colvin," he cries,
For fear that I should droon."
"Ye lie nae in a colder bed,
Nor the een ye intended for me."

11 She's looped on her father's steed,
As fast as she could flee,
She's reached her father's lofty tower
By the dawning o the day.

12 It's up and speaks the pretty parrot
In the cage where it does lie,
"O what's become of auld Sir John
That he behind thee death na stay?"

13 "It's haud yer tongue, ye pretty parrot,
An lay not the blame on me;
An' yer cage shall be made o the beaten gowd,
An' the spakes o' ivory."
_______________

1. coffers
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:22 PM

Hi,

I'll ask then they've been helpful in the past.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 07:39 PM

It's listed in Harvard's catalogue as available if anyone's there, with marginal notes by Kittredge.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 06:03 PM

The adaptation (Scots version) may well be founded on the story of some Scots laird, but the basic plot is much older and well spread around Europe as a glance at Child will tell. It is even not certain which came first, the English version (The Outlandish Knight) or the Scottish version (May Colven). I don't have much in the way of older printed versions. None of the extant printed English versions predate 1800. It would be useful to have the Boston text.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 04:33 PM

Thanks Mick,

Hi Steve, I don't get it either. According to Hyder Edward Rollins (see his notes), there is a relationship but aside from mounting a white steed: "Come saddle me my milke white Steed" and the "bird in a cage" reference at the end there's no similarity. I just saw that in my notes from seven years ago and thought I'd get some feedback on it. Sorry for calling it an antecedent-- it was Rollins who did the notes.

I am interested in get older versions so "you da man" for that. The other text is from National Library of Scotland:
http://digital.nls.uk/chapbooks-printed-in-scotland/archive/104184173

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 04:16 PM

Hi,

The Aryshire version a true ballad, "founded on fact" is the rumored murder of Sir John Cathcart, the laird of Carleton Castle, by May Colzean, a daughter of Kennedy of Culzean (later Earl of Cassillis).

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 03:30 PM

In what way is 'The Western Knight' and antecedent of 'The Western Tragedy'?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 02:09 PM

Richie I made an inventory of the 83 Carpenter entries and summarised them as follows. I was going to send this by pm, but my password is not what I thought it was and Joe hasn't got back to me yet. So in case this is of any use I'll post it here.

It's unclear from the index whether James/Jas Mason was just a misreading of James Masson, or is separate.

Mick

---

  Carpenter Child 4 - List of Performers:
  =======================================
  
  Format Types
  ------------
  music                   - Music only
  musicText               - Music and Text
  musicTextFrag           - Music and Fragmentary Text
  musicSML                - Music single line melody
  musicSMLText            - Music single line melody with words
  audio                   - Audio record or cylinder
  text                    - Text only
  textFrag                - Fragmentary text only
  
  
  Performer List
  --------------
  
  James Christie                          (audio, mslt, msltf)
  
  Peter Christie                          (audio, musicSML, musicSMLText, musicText, text)
  
  Mrs James Christie                      (audio, musicSMLText, musicText, text)
  
  William Hands                           (musicSMLText, musicText, text)
  William Hands/Loud Mouth Singer         (audio)
  
  Mrs Becky F Jones (*USA*)               (text)
  
  (Professor) Madison, G.R (*USA*)        (text, textFrag)
  
  James Mason (x1)                        (audio)
  Jas Mason   (x1)                        (musicSMLText)
  
  James Masson                            (musicSML, musicSMLText, musicText, text)
  
  William Newman                          (text)
  
  Mrs Sarah Phelps                        (musicSMLText, musicText, text)
  
  John Sutherland                         (audio, musicSMLText, musicText, text)
  
  James York (*USA*)                      (text)
  
  William Butler                          (musicSMLText, musicTextFrag)
  Wm Butler                               (musicSML)
  
  *Not Given*                             (musicSMLText, text)
  
  
  No Definite Id
  --------------
  Butler?                                 (audio)
  Man Singer/William Butler?              (audio)
  Woman Singer/Sarah Phelps?              (audio)
  Loud-Mouth Singer near Evesham          (audio)
  Man Singer near Bampton in the Bush     (audio)
  
  
  

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 10:43 AM

Hi,

I presume this chapbook version, which is "Founded on fact" is similar to "Western Tragedy";

THE HISTORICAL BALLAD
of
May Culzean,
Founded on fact.
With, A poem on the times.
[Ayrshire: Printed by D. Macarter & Co, [1817-1818]. In verse.]
Tune-Gil Morrice.

HAVE ye not heard of fause Sir John?
Wha liv’d in the west country,
How he has betray’d eight damsels fair,
And drown’d them in the sea ?

Now he’s awa to May Culzean,
She was her father’s heir,
The greatest beauty o’ the land
I solemnly declare.

“Thou art the darling o’ my heart,
“He says, fair May Culzean,
“Thou far exceed’st the beauties all,
“That ever I hae seen.

And I’m a Knight of wealth and might,
“Of Town lands twenty-three,
And yes be the lady o’ them a’,
"Fair May, if ye’ll gae wi’ me.

Excuse me then, she said Sir John,
   "To wed I am owre young,
Unless I hae my parent’s leave,
   "Wi’ you I dare na gang.

But he’s taen a charm frae aft his arm
   "And stuck it on her sleeve,”
Til he has made her follow him
   Without her parents’ leave.

Gold and jewels she has taen
   "Wi' her five hundred pound,
I the bravest horse her father had,
    he’s taen to ride upon.

merrily they rod along,
fade neither stop nor stay,
Til they came to the fatal place,
Which is called, Benan Bay.

Light down, light down, now May Culzean,
Light down, and speak to me,
For here have I drowned eight damsels fair,
And the ninth ane ye shall be.

“Cast aff, cast aff thy Jewels fine,
   So coastly rich and brave,
“ For they’re too coastly and too good,
“ To sink in the sea wave.

“ Her jewels fine she then put aff,
“ And thus she made her moan,
“ Have mercy on a virgin young,
“ I pray thee, sweet Sir John.

“ Cast aff thy coats, and gay manteel,
“ And smock o’ Holland lawm,
“ For their owre costly and owre guid,
“ To rot in the sea sawn.

“ Then turn thee round, I pray Sir John,
“ See the leaf flee owre the tree,
“ For it never befitted a book learned man,
“ A naked lady to see.

“ As fause Sir John did turn him round,
“ To see the leaf flee owre the tree
“ She grasped him in her arms sma’
“ And flung him in the sea.

“Now lie ye there ye wild Sir John,
    “Whar ye thought to lay me,
   "ye wad hae drown’d me as naked’s I was born
“ But ye’s get your claes frae me.

   Your jewels coastly, rich and rare
She straight puts on again,
She lightly springs upon her horse
And leads his by the rein.

His lady dear, was void of fear,
Her steeds were swift and free,
And she reached her father’s lofty towers,
Before the clock struck three.

And first she met the stable groom,
He was her waiting man,
And when he heard his lady’s voice,
He ran with cap in han’

Whar hae ye been, fair May Culzean ?
"Wha owns this dapple gray ?
"that’s a foundling, she replied,
Which I got on my way.”

Then out and spake the green parrot,
    "He says, fair May Culzean,
what hae ye done wi’ yon brave Knight
That gied wi’ you yestreen ?

Haud your tongue my pretty parrot,
"An’ I’se be kind to thee,
For where ye got ae handfu’ o’ groats
   My parrot shall get three.

“ Then out and spake her father dear,
“ From the chamber where he lay,
“ What is it ails my pretty parrot
   That he speaks so long e'er day?

“ There came a cat into my cage
“ Had nearly worried me,
"And I was calling on May Culzean
“ To come and set me free.”

And first she told her father dear,
Of the deed that she had done,
And likewise to her mother dear,
Concerning fause Sir John.

So aff they sent with one consent,
By dawning of the day,
Until they came to the Carleton sands;
And there his corpse it lay.

His body tall, by that great fall
Was dashed too and fro,
The golden ring that he had on.
Was broke in pieces two.

And they hae taken up his corpse
To yonder pleasant green,
And there they buried fause Sir John,
For fear he should be seen.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 09:52 AM

Hi,

This is "The Western Knight," dated 1629, similar to (see Rollins notes below) "The Western Tragedy" c. 1749 (ref. Motherwell) which is similarly found in Child D. The similarity, however, is only one line and a vague reference to a bird in a cage.

From: A Pepysian garland: black-letter broadside ballads of the years 1595-1639 by Samuel Pepys; Hyder Edward Rollins.

53. The Western Knight

Pepys, i, 312, B.L., four woodcuts, four columns.

This ballad was licensed as "Western Knight" on June 1, 1629 (Aiber's Transcript, iv, 213). It is a romance with possibly a traditional ballad as a source and with a few traditional features. Of somewhat similar nature are "The False Lover Won Back" and "Child Waters" in F. J. Child's English and Scottish Popular Ballads (Nos. 63 and 218). Even closer is the resemblance to the early part of Child's No. 4, "Lady Isabel and the ElfKnight," which in one stall copy (dating about 1749) is, as Professor Child noted (op. cit. 1, 23), called "The Western Tragedy." Professor Kittredge remarks that the Harvard College Library has an American edition of "The Western Tragedy" that was printed late in the eighteenth, or early in the nineteenth, century.

The Westerne Knight, and the young Maid of Bristoll,
Their loves and fortunes related.
To a pretty amorous tune.

IT was a yong knight borne in the West,
    that led a single life,
And for to marry he thought it best
   because he lackt a wife.

And on a day he him bethought,
    as he sate all alone,
How he might be to acquaintance brought,
    with some yong pretty one.

What luck, alas, (quoth he) have I
    to live thus by my selfe?
Could I find one of faire beauty,
    I would not sticke for pelfe.

Oh, had I one though nere so poore,
    I would her not reject:
I have enough, and aske no more,
    so she will me affect.

With that his man he then did call
    that nere unto him staid,
To whom he soone unfolded all,
    and unto him he said,

Come saddle me my milke white Steed,
    that I may a wooing ride,
To get some bonny Lasse with speed,
    whom I may make my Bride.

On horsebacke mounted the gallant young knight,
    and to try his fate he went,
To seeke some Damsell faire and bright,
    that might his mind content.

And as he through Bristoll Towne did ride,
    in a fine window of Glasse,
A gallant Creature he espide,
   in the Casement where she was.

His heart then taught his tongue to speake
   as soone as he her saw,
He unto her his mind did breake,
   compel'd by Cupids Law.

Faire Maid, quoth he, long may you live,
    and your body Christ save and see,
Five hundred Crownes I will you give,
    to set your love on me.

Though I am faire, quoth she, in some sort,
    yet am I tender of age,
And want the courtesie of the Court,
    to be a yong Knights Page.

A Page, thou gallant Dame, quoth she
    I meane thee not to make:
But if thou love me, as I love thee,
    for my Bride I will thee take.

If honestly you meane, quoth she,
    that I may trust your word,
Yours to command I still will be,
    at bed and eke at boord.

The second part. To the same tune.

THen he led her by the lilly white hand,
   up and downe a Garden greene,
What they did, I cannot understand,
    nor what passed them betweene.

When he to her had told his mind,
    and done what he thought best,
His former promises so kind,
    he turned to a Jest.

Yet he gave to her a Ring of gold,
    to keep as her owne life:
And said, that in short time he would,
    come and make her his wife.

Then mounted he upon his Steed,
    and rode from the Damsell bright,
Saying he would fetch her with speed,
    but he forgot it quite.

When fifteene weeks were come and gone,
    the Knight came riding by,
To whom the Lasse with grievous moane,
    did thus lament and cry.

Sir Knight, remember your vow, quoth she
    that you to me did say,
With child, alas, you have gotten me,
    and you can it not denay.

So mayst thou be, quoth he, faire Flowre,
    and the child be none of mine,
Unlesse thou canst tell me the houre,
    and name to me the time.

Full fifteene weeks it is, quoth she,
    that you lay my body by;
A gay gold Ring you gave to me,
    how can you this deny?

If I (quoth he) my gold Ring gave,
    to thee, as to my friend,
Then must not thinke I meane to have
    thee till my life doth end.

Nor do I meane to take for my wife,
    a Lasse that is so meane
That shall discredit me all my life,
    and all my kindred cleane.

Quoth she, false Knight, why didst thou then
    procure my overthrow,
Oh, now I see that faithlesse men,
    will sweare, yet meane not so.

Now may I live from joyes exilde,
    like a bird kept in a Cage,
For I am fifteen weeks gone with child,
    and but fourteen yeares of age.

Farewel, farewel, thou faithlesse Knight,
    sith thou wilt me forsake,
Oh heavens grant all Maidens bright,
    by me may warning take.

When as the Knight did heare what she
    poore harmelesse wretch did say,
It mov'd his heart, and quickly he
    made her a Lady gay.

Printed at London for F. Coules. FINIS.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 09:38 AM

Hi,

Child 4 from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/B, p. 11506. Inconsistent dialect, Mrs James Christie (Mrs. Margaret Christie) also sing a different variant of Child 4.

False Sir John- sung by Mrs James Christie (b. 1863), 9 Newton Hill, Scotland. Margaret learned from mother, Jean Christie , 40 Newton Hill, born in 1833 - Isabella Christie, 1826. Related to Peter Christie.

1. Fause Sir John has gone from home,
To view the king's dochter in Spain,
He's courted her for seven long years
And has her favors gained.

2 Ye'll tak some of yer father's gold.
And some of his white [wife's] money,
And ye'll tak yen o yer father's white staigs
Faur there lies thirty-three.

3 And she's taen some o' her father's gold.
And some o' his white[wife's] money,
And she took yen o' her father's white staigs
Faur there lay thirty-three.

4 She mounted on upon her white staig,
And they rode by the light o the moon,
Until they come to Northumberland's water,
And there they lighted doon.

5 "Ye'll tak off that goon o silk,
And spread it on yonder steen,
For it is too good an' too costly a robe
To travel the saut sea sand.

6 "Ye'll turn ye roon, ye Fause Sir John,
And you'll pull the green leaves o' the tree,
For it does nae become a single man,
A naked woman to see."

7 He turned himself right roon aboot,
To pull the green leaves o' the tree;
She's taen him in her arms twa
And she's thrown him in the sea.

8 "Ye'll lie there, ye False Sir John,
Lie there as well as me;
You was to drown me as sure as I was born
But your clothes can go with thee."

9 She's mounted on her milk white steed,
And she rode by the light o' the moon,
Until she came to her father's gate
And there she lichted doon.

10 She put the white steed in its stable,
And the money where it did lie,
And straight she went to her bed chamber
Where her father did lie.

11. [Parrot:] "Where now's this Fause Sir John
That he's walking wi' thee."
"Hide weel, hide weel, my pretty parrot,
Great secrets hide on me;
Your cage shall be o the beaten gowd,
And your wings of ivory."

12. Up speaks her old father,
And a bold, bold man was he,
"What said ye, my pretty parrot,
That you're prattling a' the day?"

13 Up speaks her old mother,
And a gay old woman was she,
"You'll rue, you'll rue, my pretty daughter,
You'll rue that you've gane away."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:09 AM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/B, p. 11501. The dialect is inconsistent.

Fause Sir John- sung by Peter Christie of 21 Shorehead, Stonehave, Scotland. Learned from Mary Christie of Newton Hill, fifty-two years ago. Recording date not given, c. 1930. He is a relative of Mrs James Christie, see next post.

1 Fause Sir John has gane frae hame,
To view the king's dochter fair;
Six long years he's courted her
And the seventh he's ta'en her name.

2 It's ye'll tak some o' yer father's gowd.
An' some o' your mother's fee,
And twa o' the best staigs oot o the stable
Faur there stands thirty-three.

3 An' she's taen some o' her father's gowd.
An' some o' her mother's fee,
An' twa o' the best steegs oot o' the stable
Faur there stood thirty an' three.

4    She mounted on the white melk steeg,
An' he on the steeble sae gay,
Until they cam tae Lord Cumberland's water,
Three hours before it was day.

5   Licht off, licht off, your white melk steeg
An' deliver them all up to me;
For it's six pretty maidens I ha'e droont here
And the seventh one thou shalt be.

6    'Cast off, cast off, your silken goon,
And deliver them all tee me,
For it is to good an' too costly a robe
To roll a' in the saut sea.

7 'Cast off, cast off, silken stays,
An' deliver them all up to me;
For it's six pretty maidens I ha'e droont here
And the seventh one thou shalt be.

8 "If I have to cast off my silken stay,
Ye will turn your back to me,
For it disna become o' a single man
A naked woman to see."

9  He's turned himself richt roon aboot,
For ti pu the greenleaf o' the tree;
When she's taen him in her arms twa
An' thrown him in the sea.

10   He's dipped high an' he's dipped low,
An' he dipped to the side;,
"It's take my hand, ye wild woman,
An' ye shall be my bride."

11 "O lie there, lie there, ye false Sir John,
Ye lie there instead o' me;
For it's six pretty maidens ye ha'e droont here
But the seventh ane's droont thee."

12   She's mounted on her white melk steeg,
An' she rode by the licht o' the moon,
Until she came tae her father's gate
And there she's lichted doon.

13 The parrot sat in the window so high;
T o her the Parrot did say,
"Where hae you been, ye pretty fair maid
That ye've tarried so long away?"

14 "Hide weel, hide weel, my pretty parrot,
"Hide weel, hide weel, on me;
An' you shall be o the reid, reid wine,
An' your cage o' the ivory."

Richie

Subject: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 01:41 PM

Hi,

Once a thread get too long, it's hard to pull up-- the info is hidden in the middle somewhere and it's hard find. So, this is James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads, Part 2. Rather than rehash Child 1-3 I'd rather begin with Child 4 (Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight) although it's ok to include new info about those ballads here.

TY to all the "catters" who have contributed exploring the Carpenter versions (plus UK versions) and the Child ballads.

I'll start Child 4 with a fragment of a version collected in North Carolina from James York an excellent singer, who, along with his wife contributed ballads and songs to the Brown Collection. I'll put the Brown text below Carpenter's for comparison

Child 4: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/7/1/C, p. 10673
[no date but around 1940]

Title: False Sir John
Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight

1. He followed me up, he followed me down,
He followed me into the room.
I had no power for to speak one word,
No tongue to answer nay, nay, nay
No tongue to answer nay.

2. So bring me some of your father's gold,
And some of your mother's fee,
And I will take you to Scotland,
And there I'll marry thee, thee, thee,
And there I'll marry thee.

_____________________

Brown Collection:

C. 'The Seventh King's Daughters.' Sung by Mrs. James York. Recorded by Dr. W. A. Abrams at Olin, Iredell county, 1940, from original at Boone, August 8, 1940.

1. He followed me up, he followed me down,
He followed me into the room.
I had no arms for to force him away,
No tongue to say him nay, nay, nay
No tongue to say him nay.

2. So bring me some of your father's gold,
And some of your mother's fee,
And I will take it to Scotland,
And there I'll marry thee, thee, thee,
And there I'll marry thee.

* * * *