Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2

Subject: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 01:41 PM

Hi,

Once a thread get too long, it's hard to pull up-- the info is hidden in the middle somewhere and it's hard find. So, this is James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads, Part 2. Rather than rehash Child 1-3 I'd rather begin with Child 4 (Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight) although it's ok to include new info about those ballads here.

TY to all the "catters" who have contributed exploring the Carpenter versions (plus UK versions) and the Child ballads.

I'll start Child 4 with a fragment of a version collected in North Carolina from James York an excellent singer, who, along with his wife contributed ballads and songs to the Brown Collection. I'll put the Brown text below Carpenter's for comparison

Child 4: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/7/1/C, p. 10673
[no date but around 1940]

Title: False Sir John
Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight

1. He followed me up, he followed me down,
He followed me into the room.
I had no power for to speak one word,
No tongue to answer nay, nay, nay
No tongue to answer nay.

2. So bring me some of your father's gold,
And some of your mother's fee,
And I will take you to Scotland,
And there I'll marry thee, thee, thee,
And there I'll marry thee.

_____________________

Brown Collection:

C. 'The Seventh King's Daughters.' Sung by Mrs. James York. Recorded by Dr. W. A. Abrams at Olin, Iredell county, 1940, from original at Boone, August 8, 1940.

1. He followed me up, he followed me down,
He followed me into the room.
I had no arms for to force him away,
No tongue to say him nay, nay, nay
No tongue to say him nay.

2. So bring me some of your father's gold,
And some of your mother's fee,
And I will take it to Scotland,
And there I'll marry thee, thee, thee,
And there I'll marry thee.

* * * *

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:09 AM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/B, p. 11501. The dialect is inconsistent.

Fause Sir John- sung by Peter Christie of 21 Shorehead, Stonehave, Scotland. Learned from Mary Christie of Newton Hill, fifty-two years ago. Recording date not given, c. 1930. He is a relative of Mrs James Christie, see next post.

1 Fause Sir John has gane frae hame,
To view the king's dochter fair;
Six long years he's courted her
And the seventh he's ta'en her name.

2 It's ye'll tak some o' yer father's gowd.
An' some o' your mother's fee,
And twa o' the best staigs oot o the stable
Faur there stands thirty-three.

3 An' she's taen some o' her father's gowd.
An' some o' her mother's fee,
An' twa o' the best steegs oot o' the stable
Faur there stood thirty an' three.

4    She mounted on the white melk steeg,
An' he on the steeble sae gay,
Until they cam tae Lord Cumberland's water,
Three hours before it was day.

5   Licht off, licht off, your white melk steeg
An' deliver them all up to me;
For it's six pretty maidens I ha'e droont here
And the seventh one thou shalt be.

6    'Cast off, cast off, your silken goon,
And deliver them all tee me,
For it is to good an' too costly a robe
To roll a' in the saut sea.

7 'Cast off, cast off, silken stays,
An' deliver them all up to me;
For it's six pretty maidens I ha'e droont here
And the seventh one thou shalt be.

8 "If I have to cast off my silken stay,
Ye will turn your back to me,
For it disna become o' a single man
A naked woman to see."

9  He's turned himself richt roon aboot,
For ti pu the greenleaf o' the tree;
When she's taen him in her arms twa
An' thrown him in the sea.

10   He's dipped high an' he's dipped low,
An' he dipped to the side;,
"It's take my hand, ye wild woman,
An' ye shall be my bride."

11 "O lie there, lie there, ye false Sir John,
Ye lie there instead o' me;
For it's six pretty maidens ye ha'e droont here
But the seventh ane's droont thee."

12   She's mounted on her white melk steeg,
An' she rode by the licht o' the moon,
Until she came tae her father's gate
And there she's lichted doon.

13 The parrot sat in the window so high;
T o her the Parrot did say,
"Where hae you been, ye pretty fair maid
That ye've tarried so long away?"

14 "Hide weel, hide weel, my pretty parrot,
"Hide weel, hide weel, on me;
An' you shall be o the reid, reid wine,
An' your cage o' the ivory."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 09:38 AM

Hi,

Child 4 from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/B, p. 11506. Inconsistent dialect, Mrs James Christie (Mrs. Margaret Christie) also sing a different variant of Child 4.

False Sir John- sung by Mrs James Christie (b. 1863), 9 Newton Hill, Scotland. Margaret learned from mother, Jean Christie , 40 Newton Hill, born in 1833 - Isabella Christie, 1826. Related to Peter Christie.

1. Fause Sir John has gone from home,
To view the king's dochter in Spain,
He's courted her for seven long years
And has her favors gained.

2 Ye'll tak some of yer father's gold.
And some of his white [wife's] money,
And ye'll tak yen o yer father's white staigs
Faur there lies thirty-three.

3 And she's taen some o' her father's gold.
And some o' his white[wife's] money,
And she took yen o' her father's white staigs
Faur there lay thirty-three.

4 She mounted on upon her white staig,
And they rode by the light o the moon,
Until they come to Northumberland's water,
And there they lighted doon.

5 "Ye'll tak off that goon o silk,
And spread it on yonder steen,
For it is too good an' too costly a robe
To travel the saut sea sand.

6 "Ye'll turn ye roon, ye Fause Sir John,
And you'll pull the green leaves o' the tree,
For it does nae become a single man,
A naked woman to see."

7 He turned himself right roon aboot,
To pull the green leaves o' the tree;
She's taen him in her arms twa
And she's thrown him in the sea.

8 "Ye'll lie there, ye False Sir John,
Lie there as well as me;
You was to drown me as sure as I was born
But your clothes can go with thee."

9 She's mounted on her milk white steed,
And she rode by the light o' the moon,
Until she came to her father's gate
And there she lichted doon.

10 She put the white steed in its stable,
And the money where it did lie,
And straight she went to her bed chamber
Where her father did lie.

11. [Parrot:] "Where now's this Fause Sir John
That he's walking wi' thee."
"Hide weel, hide weel, my pretty parrot,
Great secrets hide on me;
Your cage shall be o the beaten gowd,
And your wings of ivory."

12. Up speaks her old father,
And a bold, bold man was he,
"What said ye, my pretty parrot,
That you're prattling a' the day?"

13 Up speaks her old mother,
And a gay old woman was she,
"You'll rue, you'll rue, my pretty daughter,
You'll rue that you've gane away."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 09:52 AM

Hi,

This is "The Western Knight," dated 1629, similar to (see Rollins notes below) "The Western Tragedy" c. 1749 (ref. Motherwell) which is similarly found in Child D. The similarity, however, is only one line and a vague reference to a bird in a cage.

From: A Pepysian garland: black-letter broadside ballads of the years 1595-1639 by Samuel Pepys; Hyder Edward Rollins.

53. The Western Knight

Pepys, i, 312, B.L., four woodcuts, four columns.

This ballad was licensed as "Western Knight" on June 1, 1629 (Aiber's Transcript, iv, 213). It is a romance with possibly a traditional ballad as a source and with a few traditional features. Of somewhat similar nature are "The False Lover Won Back" and "Child Waters" in F. J. Child's English and Scottish Popular Ballads (Nos. 63 and 218). Even closer is the resemblance to the early part of Child's No. 4, "Lady Isabel and the ElfKnight," which in one stall copy (dating about 1749) is, as Professor Child noted (op. cit. 1, 23), called "The Western Tragedy." Professor Kittredge remarks that the Harvard College Library has an American edition of "The Western Tragedy" that was printed late in the eighteenth, or early in the nineteenth, century.

The Westerne Knight, and the young Maid of Bristoll,
Their loves and fortunes related.
To a pretty amorous tune.

IT was a yong knight borne in the West,
    that led a single life,
And for to marry he thought it best
   because he lackt a wife.

And on a day he him bethought,
    as he sate all alone,
How he might be to acquaintance brought,
    with some yong pretty one.

What luck, alas, (quoth he) have I
    to live thus by my selfe?
Could I find one of faire beauty,
    I would not sticke for pelfe.

Oh, had I one though nere so poore,
    I would her not reject:
I have enough, and aske no more,
    so she will me affect.

With that his man he then did call
    that nere unto him staid,
To whom he soone unfolded all,
    and unto him he said,

Come saddle me my milke white Steed,
    that I may a wooing ride,
To get some bonny Lasse with speed,
    whom I may make my Bride.

On horsebacke mounted the gallant young knight,
    and to try his fate he went,
To seeke some Damsell faire and bright,
    that might his mind content.

And as he through Bristoll Towne did ride,
    in a fine window of Glasse,
A gallant Creature he espide,
   in the Casement where she was.

His heart then taught his tongue to speake
   as soone as he her saw,
He unto her his mind did breake,
   compel'd by Cupids Law.

Faire Maid, quoth he, long may you live,
    and your body Christ save and see,
Five hundred Crownes I will you give,
    to set your love on me.

Though I am faire, quoth she, in some sort,
    yet am I tender of age,
And want the courtesie of the Court,
    to be a yong Knights Page.

A Page, thou gallant Dame, quoth she
    I meane thee not to make:
But if thou love me, as I love thee,
    for my Bride I will thee take.

If honestly you meane, quoth she,
    that I may trust your word,
Yours to command I still will be,
    at bed and eke at boord.

The second part. To the same tune.

THen he led her by the lilly white hand,
   up and downe a Garden greene,
What they did, I cannot understand,
    nor what passed them betweene.

When he to her had told his mind,
    and done what he thought best,
His former promises so kind,
    he turned to a Jest.

Yet he gave to her a Ring of gold,
    to keep as her owne life:
And said, that in short time he would,
    come and make her his wife.

Then mounted he upon his Steed,
    and rode from the Damsell bright,
Saying he would fetch her with speed,
    but he forgot it quite.

When fifteene weeks were come and gone,
    the Knight came riding by,
To whom the Lasse with grievous moane,
    did thus lament and cry.

Sir Knight, remember your vow, quoth she
    that you to me did say,
With child, alas, you have gotten me,
    and you can it not denay.

So mayst thou be, quoth he, faire Flowre,
    and the child be none of mine,
Unlesse thou canst tell me the houre,
    and name to me the time.

Full fifteene weeks it is, quoth she,
    that you lay my body by;
A gay gold Ring you gave to me,
    how can you this deny?

If I (quoth he) my gold Ring gave,
    to thee, as to my friend,
Then must not thinke I meane to have
    thee till my life doth end.

Nor do I meane to take for my wife,
    a Lasse that is so meane
That shall discredit me all my life,
    and all my kindred cleane.

Quoth she, false Knight, why didst thou then
    procure my overthrow,
Oh, now I see that faithlesse men,
    will sweare, yet meane not so.

Now may I live from joyes exilde,
    like a bird kept in a Cage,
For I am fifteen weeks gone with child,
    and but fourteen yeares of age.

Farewel, farewel, thou faithlesse Knight,
    sith thou wilt me forsake,
Oh heavens grant all Maidens bright,
    by me may warning take.

When as the Knight did heare what she
    poore harmelesse wretch did say,
It mov'd his heart, and quickly he
    made her a Lady gay.

Printed at London for F. Coules. FINIS.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 10:43 AM

Hi,

I presume this chapbook version, which is "Founded on fact" is similar to "Western Tragedy";

THE HISTORICAL BALLAD
of
May Culzean,
Founded on fact.
With, A poem on the times.
[Ayrshire: Printed by D. Macarter & Co, [1817-1818]. In verse.]
Tune-Gil Morrice.

HAVE ye not heard of fause Sir John?
Wha liv’d in the west country,
How he has betray’d eight damsels fair,
And drown’d them in the sea ?

Now he’s awa to May Culzean,
She was her father’s heir,
The greatest beauty o’ the land
I solemnly declare.

“Thou art the darling o’ my heart,
“He says, fair May Culzean,
“Thou far exceed’st the beauties all,
“That ever I hae seen.

And I’m a Knight of wealth and might,
“Of Town lands twenty-three,
And yes be the lady o’ them a’,
"Fair May, if ye’ll gae wi’ me.

Excuse me then, she said Sir John,
   "To wed I am owre young,
Unless I hae my parent’s leave,
   "Wi’ you I dare na gang.

But he’s taen a charm frae aft his arm
   "And stuck it on her sleeve,”
Til he has made her follow him
   Without her parents’ leave.

Gold and jewels she has taen
   "Wi' her five hundred pound,
I the bravest horse her father had,
    he’s taen to ride upon.

merrily they rod along,
fade neither stop nor stay,
Til they came to the fatal place,
Which is called, Benan Bay.

Light down, light down, now May Culzean,
Light down, and speak to me,
For here have I drowned eight damsels fair,
And the ninth ane ye shall be.

“Cast aff, cast aff thy Jewels fine,
   So coastly rich and brave,
“ For they’re too coastly and too good,
“ To sink in the sea wave.

“ Her jewels fine she then put aff,
“ And thus she made her moan,
“ Have mercy on a virgin young,
“ I pray thee, sweet Sir John.

“ Cast aff thy coats, and gay manteel,
“ And smock o’ Holland lawm,
“ For their owre costly and owre guid,
“ To rot in the sea sawn.

“ Then turn thee round, I pray Sir John,
“ See the leaf flee owre the tree,
“ For it never befitted a book learned man,
“ A naked lady to see.

“ As fause Sir John did turn him round,
“ To see the leaf flee owre the tree
“ She grasped him in her arms sma’
“ And flung him in the sea.

“Now lie ye there ye wild Sir John,
    “Whar ye thought to lay me,
   "ye wad hae drown’d me as naked’s I was born
“ But ye’s get your claes frae me.

   Your jewels coastly, rich and rare
She straight puts on again,
She lightly springs upon her horse
And leads his by the rein.

His lady dear, was void of fear,
Her steeds were swift and free,
And she reached her father’s lofty towers,
Before the clock struck three.

And first she met the stable groom,
He was her waiting man,
And when he heard his lady’s voice,
He ran with cap in han’

Whar hae ye been, fair May Culzean ?
"Wha owns this dapple gray ?
"that’s a foundling, she replied,
Which I got on my way.”

Then out and spake the green parrot,
    "He says, fair May Culzean,
what hae ye done wi’ yon brave Knight
That gied wi’ you yestreen ?

Haud your tongue my pretty parrot,
"An’ I’se be kind to thee,
For where ye got ae handfu’ o’ groats
   My parrot shall get three.

“ Then out and spake her father dear,
“ From the chamber where he lay,
“ What is it ails my pretty parrot
   That he speaks so long e'er day?

“ There came a cat into my cage
“ Had nearly worried me,
"And I was calling on May Culzean
“ To come and set me free.”

And first she told her father dear,
Of the deed that she had done,
And likewise to her mother dear,
Concerning fause Sir John.

So aff they sent with one consent,
By dawning of the day,
Until they came to the Carleton sands;
And there his corpse it lay.

His body tall, by that great fall
Was dashed too and fro,
The golden ring that he had on.
Was broke in pieces two.

And they hae taken up his corpse
To yonder pleasant green,
And there they buried fause Sir John,
For fear he should be seen.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 02:09 PM

Richie I made an inventory of the 83 Carpenter entries and summarised them as follows. I was going to send this by pm, but my password is not what I thought it was and Joe hasn't got back to me yet. So in case this is of any use I'll post it here.

It's unclear from the index whether James/Jas Mason was just a misreading of James Masson, or is separate.

Mick

---

  Carpenter Child 4 - List of Performers:
  =======================================
  
  Format Types
  ------------
  music                   - Music only
  musicText               - Music and Text
  musicTextFrag           - Music and Fragmentary Text
  musicSML                - Music single line melody
  musicSMLText            - Music single line melody with words
  audio                   - Audio record or cylinder
  text                    - Text only
  textFrag                - Fragmentary text only
  
  
  Performer List
  --------------
  
  James Christie                          (audio, mslt, msltf)
  
  Peter Christie                          (audio, musicSML, musicSMLText, musicText, text)
  
  Mrs James Christie                      (audio, musicSMLText, musicText, text)
  
  William Hands                           (musicSMLText, musicText, text)
  William Hands/Loud Mouth Singer         (audio)
  
  Mrs Becky F Jones (*USA*)               (text)
  
  (Professor) Madison, G.R (*USA*)        (text, textFrag)
  
  James Mason (x1)                        (audio)
  Jas Mason   (x1)                        (musicSMLText)
  
  James Masson                            (musicSML, musicSMLText, musicText, text)
  
  William Newman                          (text)
  
  Mrs Sarah Phelps                        (musicSMLText, musicText, text)
  
  John Sutherland                         (audio, musicSMLText, musicText, text)
  
  James York (*USA*)                      (text)
  
  William Butler                          (musicSMLText, musicTextFrag)
  Wm Butler                               (musicSML)
  
  *Not Given*                             (musicSMLText, text)
  
  
  No Definite Id
  --------------
  Butler?                                 (audio)
  Man Singer/William Butler?              (audio)
  Woman Singer/Sarah Phelps?              (audio)
  Loud-Mouth Singer near Evesham          (audio)
  Man Singer near Bampton in the Bush     (audio)
  
  
  

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 03:30 PM

In what way is 'The Western Knight' and antecedent of 'The Western Tragedy'?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 04:16 PM

Hi,

The Aryshire version a true ballad, "founded on fact" is the rumored murder of Sir John Cathcart, the laird of Carleton Castle, by May Colzean, a daughter of Kennedy of Culzean (later Earl of Cassillis).

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 04:33 PM

Thanks Mick,

Hi Steve, I don't get it either. According to Hyder Edward Rollins (see his notes), there is a relationship but aside from mounting a white steed: "Come saddle me my milke white Steed" and the "bird in a cage" reference at the end there's no similarity. I just saw that in my notes from seven years ago and thought I'd get some feedback on it. Sorry for calling it an antecedent-- it was Rollins who did the notes.

I am interested in get older versions so "you da man" for that. The other text is from National Library of Scotland:
http://digital.nls.uk/chapbooks-printed-in-scotland/archive/104184173

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 06:03 PM

The adaptation (Scots version) may well be founded on the story of some Scots laird, but the basic plot is much older and well spread around Europe as a glance at Child will tell. It is even not certain which came first, the English version (The Outlandish Knight) or the Scottish version (May Colven). I don't have much in the way of older printed versions. None of the extant printed English versions predate 1800. It would be useful to have the Boston text.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 07:39 PM

It's listed in Harvard's catalogue as available if anyone's there, with marginal notes by Kittredge.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:22 PM

Hi,

I'll ask then they've been helpful in the past.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 07:25 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/3/A, p. 09093, there's another James Mason (also Masson) from Stonehaven who is an informant for Carpenter. Amusing, at least mildly, is "He's courted her butt,"

May Colvin - sung by James Mason of 4 Dawson's Building, Stonehaven, Scotland about 1930

1 Fause Sir John his a wooin' gaen,
Tae a maiden o' beauty rare;
May Colvin it was that lady's name
Her father's only heir.

2 He's courted her but[t], he's courted her ben,
An' he's courted her enti the hall,
Until he's gotten this lady's consent
It's for ti mount and ride awa'.

3 She's gaen enti her father's coffrum[1],
It's where his money lies,
She's taen the red and left the white,
And lightly she has tripped awa'.

4. She's gaen enti her father's stable,
It's just where a' his stablings stands,
She's taen the best an' left the worst,
That was enti her father's lands.

5. It's he's rode on, an' she's rode on
They rode a lang, lang summer's day;
Until they came tae a a broad river,
An erum o' the lonesome sea.

6. Loup off your steed, May Colvin,
Your bridal bed you see;
It's seven king's daughters I ha'e droont here
An' the eighth one I'll mak o' thee.

7   "Cast aff, cast aff, yer silks sae fine,
An' lay them on the stane,
They are too fine an' costilee
For to rot i' the saut-sea fame.

7 "Cast aff, cast off, yer hollin' smock,
An' lay them on the stane,
They are too fine an' costilee
For to rot i' the saut-sea fame.

8 "It's tern ye roon, ye Fause Sir John,
An' view the green leaves on the tree,
For it disna become a single man
A naked woman ti see."

9 He's tarned himself richt an' roon aboot,
Ti view the green leaves far off the trees;
An' she's taen him in her ain arms twa
An' thrown him headlong in the sea.

10 "It's haud yer grip, May Colvin," he cries,
For fear that I should droon."
"Ye lie nae in a colder bed,
Nor the een ye intended for me."

11 She's looped on her father's steed,
As fast as she could flee,
She's reached her father's lofty tower
By the dawning o the day.

12 It's up and speaks the pretty parrot
In the cage where it does lie,
"O what's become of auld Sir John
That he behind thee death na stay?"

13 "It's haud yer tongue, ye pretty parrot,
An lay not the blame on me;
An' yer cage shall be made o the beaten gowd,
An' the spakes o' ivory."
_______________

1. coffers
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 09:17 PM

Hi,

A second version (Child 4B) from Mrs Margaret Christie from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/B, p. 11506. Uses the "Lord Lovel" ending.

"Water o the Weary Well," sung by Mrs James Christie of 9 Newton Hill, learned from Jean Christie (b. 1833).

1. Step in, step in, my lady fair,
Nae harm shall thee befall;
For ofttimes here I've watered my steed
In the water o Weary Well, Well,
In the water o Weary Well.

2. The firstan step that she stepped in,
She stepped tee the knee;
An' sichen says the king's daughter,
This water's nae for me, me,
This water's nae for me.

3. "Step in, step in, my lady fair,
Nae harm shall thee befall;
For ofttimes here I've watered my steed
Wi the water o Weary Well, Well,
Wi' the water o Weary Well.

4. The neistan step that she stepped in,
She stepped tee the middle;
An' sichen says the king's daughter,
I've wat my gowden girdle, girdle,
I've wat my gowden girdle.

5. "Step in, step in, my lady fair,
Nae harm shall thee befall;
For ofttimes here I've watered my steed
Wi the water o Weary Well, Well,
Wi' the water o Weary Well.

6. The neistan step that she stepped in,
She stepped tee chin;
An' sichen says the king's daughter,
This would gar twa loves twyne, twyne,
This would gar twa loves twyne.

7 "Seven king's dochters I've droont here,
I' the water o the Weary Well,
And I'll mak you the eight yen ower them a'.
An' I'll ring the common bell bell,
An' I'll ring the common bell.

8 "O I am standing here," says she,
"This dowie death ti die,
Gin I had one kiss o your comely lips
I'm sure would comfort me, me,
I'm sure would comfort me.

9 He leaned him ower his high saddle,
Ti kiss her cheek an' chin,
An' she's taen him in her arms twa,
An' thrown him headlong in, in,
An' thrown him headlong in.

10. "Gin seven king's daughters ye've droont here,
In the water o the Weary Well,
I'll mak ye bridegroom ower them a',
An' I'll ring the bell mysel', sel'
An' I'll ring the bell mysel'."

11 Then aye she warsled, an' aye she swam,
Till she swam tee dry land;
She thanked God most cheerfully
For the danger she ower gane [came], gane,
For the danger she ower gane.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 06:30 PM

Hi,

The Wells o' Wearie are located in Edinburgh's Holyrood Park at the foot of Arthur's Seat. They were located in private ground at the south end opposite Samson's Ribs and near the route of one of Scotland's first railways which opened in 1831.

Several Scottish songs from the early 1800s have a similar refrain. Among them are:

1. A song based on tradition by Perth native Alexander Maclagan (b. 1811) which is titled. "Wells o' Wearie" and begins:

"I daur ye meet me! I daur ye by the dirk!
And I'se meet thee, ne'er fear ye!
I sall rin thee through an' through, and slay thee in the mirk,
By the gloomie, gloomie Wells o' Wearie!"

2. A song by Alexander A. Ritchie who was born at Edinburgh, in 1816 titled Wells o' Wearie. Here are the first two stanzas:

Sweetly shines the sun on auld Edinbro' toun,
And mak's her look young and cheerie;
Yet I maun awa' to spend the afternoon
At the lanesome Wells o' Wearie.

And you maun gang wi' me, my winsome Mary Grieve,
There's nought in the world to fear ye;
For I ha'e ask'd your minnie, and she has gi'en ye leave
To gang to the Wells o' Wearie.

Motherwell wrote a poem titled "Wearie's well" which doesn't have a similar line.

"Water o the Weary Well," sung by Mrs James Christie is Child B but it's missing the opening stanzas.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 09:37 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/K, pp. 12032-12033. Missing stanzas between 2 and 3 plus the 'parrot" ending. Almost no dialect.

May Colzean - sung by John Sutherland of Balruddery, Latheron, Caithness, Scotland. Learned from his mother, Margaret Cumming Sutherland about 1870

1 Fause Sir John his a wooing came,
To a maid of beauty rare;
May Colzean was this lady's name
Her father's only heir.

2 He courted her up, he courted her down,
He courted her into the hall,
Until he got this maid's consent
To mount and ride awa'.

3. He rode on, and she rode on
As fast as they could gae;
Until they reached a lonesome part,
An hour before it was day.

4. "Light down, light down, thou May Colzean,
Light down, light down, said he;
Here I have drowned seven lady's fair
The eighth one thou shalt be."

5. "Put off, put off, your jewels fine,
Put off your silken gown,
They are too fine and costlie
To rot in the salt sea foam.

6. "If I put off my silken gown,
Look you to the leaf of the tree,
For it nevr became a gentleman
A naked woman to see."

7. He's turned himself right 'round about,
To the leaf far of the tree;
She's twined her arms around his waist
And thrown him into the sea.

8. "O help, O help now, May Colzean,
O help or else I drown.
I'll take you home to your father's ha',
And safely set ye down."

9. "No help, no help, thou Fause Sir John
No help or pity for thee;
Here hast thou frowned seven ladies fair,
The eighth hast drowned thee."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 10:19 PM

Hi,

Apparently "Water o the Weary Well," sung by Mrs James Christie is only the third extant version of Child B. The introduction (2 stanzas) is only found in Buchan's version which he also gave Motherwell.

The other is a fragment from Amelia Harris which Child gives in his end-notes:

43 Mony a time I rade wi my brown foal
      The water o Wearie's Wells,
'Leave aff, leave aff your gey mantle,
      It 's a' gowd but the hem;
Leave aff, leave [aff], it's far owre gude
      To weet i the saut see faem.'
5 She wade in, an he rade in,
      Till it took her to the knee;
Wi sighin said that lady gay
      'Sic wadin's no for me.'
* * *
9 He rade in, and she wade in,
      Till it took her to the chin;
Wi sighin said that ladie gay
      'I'll wade nae farer in.'
103 'Sax king's dochters I hae drowned,
      An the seventh you sail be.'
* * *
13 'Lie you there, you fause young man,
      Where you thought to lay me.'

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:19 AM

Hi,

In his headnotes of Lady Isabel, Child's assertion in his first footnote ['The Elfin Knight' begins very much like A, but perhaps has borrowed its opening stanzas from this ballad] seems backwards to me. Buchan's text (Child A) is called "unreliable" by Ebsworth and considering Buchan's version is 150 later, it's likely that Child 4A is a recreation from 2A, the 1670 broadside.

Child 4A has no corroboration nor do the first two stanzas of 4B, also from Buchan. Child 4C published by Herd in 1776 may have been taken from an earlier print of Child 4D.

The ballad story of 4C and 4D seem to be the authentic story. This is not to say the Fause Sir John doesn't have a magical power over the maid to get her to ride away with him-- that power is a magic charm: "a charm frae aft his arm" which he attaches to her sleeve.

The Carpenter Collection's "May Colvin" sung by James Mason seems to be a version of Child C.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 02:44 PM

Hi,

The oldest extant version is "The False Knight Outwitted: A New Song" which is Child 4F, from Roxburghe Ballads, III, 449. In the catalogue of the British Museum it's listed "London? 1710?" A reprint date of 1780 is confirmed. There's no narrative introduction and it has an abbreviated ending with the "parrot" stanzas. The girl's name is "pretty Polly." It may be viewed online here: http://ebba.english.ucsb.edu/ballad/31135/transcription

1    'Go fetch me some of your father's gold,
And some of your mother's fee,
And I'll carry you into the north land,
And there I'll marry thee.'

2    She fetchd him some of her father's gold,
And some of her mother's fee;
She carried him into the stable,
Where horses stood thirty and three.

3    She leapd on a milk-white steed,
And he on a dapple-grey;
They rode til they came to a fair river's side,
Three hours before it was day.

4    'O light, O light, you lady gay,
O light with speed, I say,
For six knight's daughters have I drowned here,
And you the seventh must be.'

5    'Go fetch the sickle, to crop the nettle
That grows so near the brim,
For fear it should tangle my golden locks,
Or freckle my milk-white skin.'

6    He fetchd the sickle, to crop the nettle
That grows so near the brim,
And with all the strength that pretty Polly had
She pushd the false knight in.

7    'Swim on, swim on, thou false knight,
And there bewail thy doom,
For I don't think thy cloathing too good
To lie in a watry tomb.'

8    She leaped on her milk-white steed,
She led the dapple grey;
She rid till she came to her father's house,
Three hours before it was day.

9    'Who knocked so loudly at the ring?'
The parrot he did say;
'O where have you been, my pretty Polly,
All this long summer's day?'

10    'O hold your tongue, parrot,
Tell you no tales of me;
Your cage shall be made of beaten gold,
Which is now made of a tree.'

11    O then bespoke her father dear,
As he on his bed did lay:
'O what is the matter, my parrot,
That you speak before it is day?'

12    'The cat's at my cage, master,
And sorely frighted me,
And I calld down my Polly
To take the cat away.'

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 11:38 AM

Hi,

This heavily rewritten print version comes from an unknown informant who sent a letter to the editor which was printed in The Table Book, Volume 1, p. 129 by William Hone. The informant lived on Grange-road Bermondsey (London Borough of Southwark, in south London), and dated his letter Jan. 8, 1827.

What interesting is his notes which date the print version (Outlandish Knight) of John Pitts (London printer 1765- 1844), who he talked with about the ballad, back to c.1802 and further back to the late 1700s as printed by Pitt's employer John Marshall, son of printer Richard Marshall (d. 1779):

AN INEDITED BALLAD.

To the Editor.

Dear Sir, —A friend of mine, who resided for some years on the borders, used to amuse himself by collecting old ballads, printed on halfpenny sheets, and hawked up and down by itinerant minstrels. In his common-place book I found one, entitled "The Outlandish Knight," evidently, from the style, of considerable antiquity, which appears to have escaped the notice of Percy, and other collectors. Since then I have met with a printed one, from the popular press of Mr. Pitts, the six-yards for-a-penny song-publisher, who informs me that he has printed it "ever since he was a printer, and that Mr. Marshall, his predecessor, printed it before him." The ballad has not improved by circulating amongst Mr. Pitts's friends; for the heroine, who has no name given her in my friend's copy, is in Mr. Pitts's called "Polly;" and there are expressions contra bonos more. These I have expunged; and, to render the ballad more complete, added a few stanzas, wherein I have endeavoured to preserve.

Outlandish Knight- "Six go true, The seventh askew."

An outlandish knight from the north lands came,
And he came a wooing to me;
He told me he'd take me unto the north lands,
And I should his fair bride be.

A broad, broad shield did this strange knight wield.
Whereon did the red-cross shine,
Yet never, I ween, had that strange knight been
In the fields of Palestine.

And out and spake this strange knight,
This knight of the north countrie,
O, maiden fair, with the raven hair,
Thou shalt at my bidding be.

Thy sire he is from home, ladye,
For he hath a journey gone,
And his shaggy blood-hound is sleeping sound,
Beside the postern stone.

Go, bring me some of thy fatber's gold,
And some of thy mother's fee,
And steeds twain of the best, in the stalls that rest;
Where they stand thirty and three.

She mounted her on her milk-white steed.
And he on a dapple grey,
And they forward did ride, till they reacb'd the sea-side,
Three hours before it was day.

Then out and spake this strange knight,
This knight of the north countrie,
O, maiden fair, with the raven hair,
Do thou at my bidding be.

Alight thee, maid, from thy milk-white steed.
And deliver it unto me;
Six maids have I drown'd, where the billows sound,
And the seventh one thou shalt be.

But first pull off thy kirtle fine,
And deliver it unto me;
Thy kirtle of green is too rich, I ween,
To rot in the salt, salt sea,

Pull off, pull off thy silken shoon,
And deliver them unto me;
Methinks that they are too fine and gay
To rot in the salt, salt sea.

Pull off, pull off thy bonnie green plaid.
That floats in the breeze so free;
It is woven fine with the silver twine,
And comely it is to see.

If I must pull off my bonnie' green plaid,
O turn thy back to me;
And gaze on the sun which has just begun
To peer o'er the salt, salt sea.

He turn'd his back on the damoselle
And gaz'd on the bright sunbeam-
She grasp'd him tight with her arms so white,
And plung'd him into the stream.

Lie there, sir knight, thou false-hearted wight,
Lie there instead of me;
Six damsels fair thou hast drown'd there,
But the seventh has drowned thee.

That ocean wave was the false one's grave,
For he sunk right hastily;
Though with dying voice faint, he pray'd to his saint,
And utter'd an Ave Marie.

No mass was said for that false knight dead,
No convent bell did toll;
But he went to his rest, unshriv'd and unblest-
Heaven's mercy on his soul!

She mounted her on her dapple-grey steed,
And led the steed milk-white;
She rode till she reach'd her father's hall,
Three hours before the night.

The parrot, hung in the lattice so high,
To the lady then did say,
Some ruffian, I fear, has led thee from home,
For thou hast been long away.

Do not prattle, my pretty bird,
Do not tell tales of me;
And thy cage shall be made of the glittering gold,
Instead of the greenwood tree.

The earl as he sat in his turret high,
On hearing the parrot did say,
What ails thee, what ails thee, my pretty bird?
Thou hast prattled the live-long day.

Well may I prattle, the parrot replied,
And call, brave earl, on thee;
For the cat has well nigh reach'd the lattice so high,
And her eyes are fix'd on me.

Well turn'd, well turn'd, my pretty bird,
Well turn'd, well turn'd for me;
Thy cage shall be made of the glittering gold,
Instead of the greenwood tree.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 01:26 PM

Yes, the rewritten ballad is almost worthless but the information that it was printed by the Dicey-Marshall dynasty is priceless. That now makes it very likely that the TOK is the original in English and the Scottish version Child D is based upon it rather than the other way round. The other Child versions are either based on D or are concoctions of their editors. So far the earlier version hasn't come to light but it may well still do so.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:45 AM

Hi,

The Ballad of Lady Isabel and the False Knight by Finnish author Iivar Kemppinen was published in 1954. He studied 1865 variants of this ballad from all over the world. I've put excerpts on my website here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/ballad-of-lady-isabel--the-false-knight--kemppinen.aspx

It's important to differentiate between the various similar themes found mainly in Europe, Scandinavia and the Americas. This study is confined largely to the English speaking countries. It's impossible to say when and where the English speaking versions originated and comparing the "collective" murder ballads or stories is like comparing apples with oranges- yes, they're both similar fruits which is saying: yes, they're murder ballads with a similar theme.

That each murder of the seducer by the maid is given local settings is only natural since similar murders have occurred throughout the world. Some are adaptations of this similar "abduction of the maid" theme which already existed while others are new versions of the same story.

Here is an outline of the ballad story as given by Kemppinen in 1954:

a: A noble and foreign-looking man (false knight) approaches a young maid (king's daughter), charms her with his music or promises and carries her off in order to kill her.
b: Having discovered his intentions, revealed either by the knight himself or in some other way, the girl, being the cleverer and more shrewd of the two, finds a way to save herself and
c: kills the knight,
d: The final scene tells of what the maid does when the murder is accomplished and how her world reacts to the deed. Subordinate characters are the father and mother or brother and sister of the king's daughter or the knight, or sometimes all of these.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 04:37 PM

'comparing apples with oranges'. Not sure I agree with this analogy, Richie. Having recently read through all of Child's synopses, it's possible to see evolution and progressions from one country/language to another and to show how they are related. I do admit that in the cases of some Child Ballads the connections can be quite tentuous and debatable but with number 4, at least with most of the versions Child looks at, the connections are real. If one tries to compare a Portuguese version with say a Norwegian version the connections might seem very tenuous but having an overview as in Child's headnotes one can trace development and links.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 11:49 PM

Hi Steve,

If all the variants by Child and Kemmpinen are types of fruit (i.e. maid outwits false knight and kills him) then most of the analogues are different like apples are different than oranges. I think I'll look more carefully at the analogues.

The English speaking versions in general have

A: The false knight proposes to the maid or seduces the maid through a magic charm.
B: He entices her to bring her father's gold and her mother's jewels (fee) and two steeds.
C: They ride to the seashore where the knight has already drowned six maids; the knight tells the maid to take off her clothes, since they are too "costily" to rot in the salty sea.
D: The maid asks him to turn his back for "it is not fitting that a naked woman he should see.
E: She throws him in the water and refuses to rescue him.
F: When she returns home, the parrot asks her where she's been; sometimes the father is woken. She promises the bird a golden and ivory cage or other rewards and parrot keeps the murder a secret.

Even if you take off the ending with the parrot-- the false knight and maid ride horses to water where they stop and he reveals he's killed six (or seven) king's daughters. Before she takes off her expensive clothes she tricks him to turn his head so he won't see her naked. She throws him in the water and he drowns.

I don't think there are analogues with these distinct characteristics. Child 4A is quite different and part of Child 4B. I'll look again at the analogues.

This Irish oral dialogue version from Connamara appeared in "Once a Week," Volume 11, edited by Eneas Sweetland Dallas, 1864 and has the naked woman scene which needs to be part of the analogue-- but it's missing other parts:

"We had another like him, sir, but he was a murthering villain."

"Who was he?"

"Captain Webb."

"What did he do?"

"He used to ill-use young women, and then strip thorn and throw them into the 'Murthuring Hole,' which is not far from here."

"Come, now, Master Joyce, you must not be asking me to believe too much, or you may weaken my faith in Mao Namara and his famous mare."

"The devil a lie in what I'm going to tell you, sir."

"Well, goon."

"Well, sir, this Captain Webb one day met a fine handsome girl, beautifully dressed, with a bran new cloak and gown. It was near the mouth of the Murthering Hole that he met her. He first sthruve to get his will of her, but he couldn't, for she was a very decent girl; so he tares off her cloak and drags her to the mouth of the Hole, and says, 'Strip.'

"Goon."

"Well, sir, she takes off her new gown, and her flannel petticoat, saving your presence, and then she falls down on her knees and says to him, 'Oh, for the Vargin's sake, turn your head aside while I take off the rest of my things."

"Well?"

"Well, sir, he turned his back to her and his face to the Murthering Hole, when she sprung up and made a dhrive at him, and pushed him in."

"And killed him?"

"Of coorse."

"Bravo!"
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:09 AM

The changing of the scene/method of the killing is to be expected in such a widespread ballad. In some of the more central/possibly earlier international versions the Knight gives the girl the option of being killed by his sword, hung or drowned, so the suggestion of drowning was already implanted. If I remember correctly it's the French and Polish versions that move towards the drowning method, and therefore most likely the source of the English ballad.

Whatever, it is the girl's reversal that is the crux of the story. The method is not as important (IMO).

What Child's (Grundtvig's) synopsis of the continental versions doesn't tell us is whether as the ballad moved from language to language did the basic story just pass on or were there direct translations of ballad to ballad. The probable answer is both. I look forward to seeing if Kemppinen throws any light on this.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:12 AM

BTW, I like the Irish version.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 01:26 PM

Feature D, the maid asks him to turn his back for "it is not fitting that a naked woman he should see", does indeed come in many of the English language versions, and yet it seems the least plausible of the methods by which the girl could overcome the villain. But then seducing and murdering one king's daughter after another seems an overly complicated way of acquiring riches. I find it easier to suspend disbelief for some of the ballads involving magic than for this one.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 02:32 PM

Hi, Richard.
Belief and plausibility are not requirements of balladry.

The naked woman motif is present in some of the continental versions, the French for instance.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:04 PM

> Belief and plausibility are not requirements of balladry.

Indeed not, but surely suspension of disbelief is a requirement, for ballads as for most kinds of fictional story apart from tall tales where the implausibility is the point.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 06:32 PM

Considering the overall plot we are very likely looking at a late medieval one here. In such times murder to acquire riches would have been quite plausible, and the various tricks used to distract the knight and reverse the situation are the main point of the piece of fiction. They vary in plausibility and ingenuity. There is no more suspension of disbelief needed here than with a hundred other ballads, to my mind anyway. The talking parrot helps set the tone but that's only in English versions. Other talking birds do come in at various points in continental versions.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 07 Apr 18 - 06:00 AM

> They vary in plausibility and ingenuity.

There I agree.

> There is no more suspension of disbelief needed here than with a hundred other ballads, to my mind anyway.

That's where I disagree. The girl certainly needs to pull a cunning trick of some sort, unless someone else is coming to the rescue as in some of the continental variants. But what villain would fall for "turn your back so you don't see me naked", when he would see her anyway when he pushes her into the water? Or "Go and find a sickle to cut those nettles". Does he really believe that she will refuse to walk through some stinging nettles but submit to being drowned?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Apr 18 - 05:35 PM

I completely see your point, but similar points could be made with a whole host of ballads. Time scales don't match etc. These pieces were primarily written as entertainment. Like our modern day soaps, a lot of what goes on we wouldn't expect to happen in real life. They seem to lurch from one life-threatening situation to another.

The Cruel Mother kills her babies and on her way home she sees their ghosts, no longer babies, playing ball, and they accuse her.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 07 Apr 18 - 06:04 PM

Steve, I accept those points!

Perhaps we should get back to discussions specific to the Carpenter stuff (now that Mudcat is accessible again. As far as I can see, no-one managed to post anything for nearly eleven hours today.)

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 09:14 AM

Yes,
I tried quite a few times. It seems to go down regularly on a weekend. Maintenance one presumes.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 11:26 AM

Hi,

The letter (below) in 1851 Notes and Queries refers to an arrangement by F. Sheldon in which Sheldon's version was chastised by Blackwood as being a poor recreation of the Scottish "May Collean." EMUN points out that Outlandish Knight is the original of "May Collean."

"Notes and Queries: A Medium of Inter-Communication for Literary ...," Volume 3, 1851:

Ballad Editing — The “Outlandish Knight" (Vol. iii., p. 49.).—I was exceedingly glad to see Mr. F. Sheldon's “valuable contribution to our stock of ballad literature” in the hands of Mr. Rimbault, and thought the treatment it received no better than it deserved. Blackwood, May, 1847, reviewed Mr. Sheldon's book, and pointed out several instances of his “godfathership:” among others, his ballad of the “Outlandish Knight,” which he obtained from “a copy in the possession of a gentleman at Newcastle,” was condemned by the reviewer as “a vamped version of the Scotch ballad of ‘May Collean.'" It may be as the reviewer states, but the question I would wish answered is one affecting the reviewer himself; for, if I mistake not, the Southron “Outlandish Knight” is the original of “May Collean” itself. I have by me a copy, in black letter, of the “Outlandish Knight,” English in every respect, and as such differing considerably from Mr. Sheldon's border edition, and from “May Collean;" and, with some slight alterations, the ballad I have is yet popularly known through the midland counties. If any of your correspondents can oblige me with a reference to the first appearance of “May Collean,” sheet or book, I shall esteem it a favour.
EMUN.

Birmingham.

* * * *

As pointed out by Barry and others the Scottish names similar to "May Collean" may be a derivative of "my colleen" or "my callin" both of which are slang for "my girl."

Child G, the Irish "The Knight and the Chief's Daughter" has "my colleen" and introduces "willow tree" found in later traditional versions in the US.

Both of the early English prints (False Knight Outwitted/Outlandish Knight) name the maid, "Pretty Polly" although some reprints have pretty maid(en)."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 11:44 AM

Hi,

One point, which goes back to the posts by Steve and Richard Mellish, regards the plausibility of Child 4:

The maid pushes the Knight in the water and he drowns.

Maybe if he was wearing a full suit of armor it might make sense, but pushing a "false" knight who presumably has supernatural powers into the water (sometimes just a stream) seems an unlikely form of demise. There's nothing in the ballad text about the knight being weighed down or not being able to swim-- he just drowns!!!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 03:29 PM

There is no suggestion in English forms that the Knight has supernatural powers. I'd need to check but I'm not even sure that many, if any, of the continental versions do. This seems to be a later addition as with other cases of the Scottish redaction adding in the supernatural elements.

Have we identified 'EMUN'? This astounding revelation 'I have by me a copy, in black letter, of the OK.' If that can be verified that would just about settle the case. Having said that the likelihood of a black-letter version being around then and no recollection of it surviving makes me suspicious. The earliest we have is 1780, yes?

Once again, ballads, like their close relatives folk tales, do not need to be plausible. Describers of ballad style often refer to their cartoon-like qualities.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 11:07 PM

Hi Steve,

I assume (but you known this better than I) that black-letter broadsides are dated before about 1720. Is that an accurate date? We know that earlier broadsides of Outlandish Knight (English) were printed-- they just haven't survived. How do we know EMUN did not have an earlier version? As far as False Knight Outwitted the British Library still has 1710? with a proven date of 1780. I have the ballad dated late 1600s and early 1700s without proof. There is a response in Notes and Queries challenging EMUN's claim (I think in 1868) that OK is the earliest predating the Scottish versions. EMUN's conclusion was also our conclusion.

I have felt that the fause knight exerted some power of her to cause her to go away with him besides the charm.

"I had no power for to speak one word,
No tongue to answer nay, nay, nay
No tongue to answer nay."

Still I agree that the False knight is not the devil and this change was added later to make him seem more ominous.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 08:32 AM

Hi,

The 1868 Notes and Queries question is not to Emun's post but to Hone's 1927 version which dates Outlandish Knight back to John Marshall to the 1700s via a conversion with John Pitts who said it was one of his earliest prints (c. 1802):

What I want to know is this: Can any contributor to “N. & Q.” prove that “The Outlandish Knight” is not a modern antique? I fancy I have seen in Blackwood [May 1847] a ballad so called, but may be mistaken. Certainly there is a very suspicious resemblance in style between the alleged old ballad and its modern sequel, and I should like to know on what evidence the alleged antiquity rests. I appeal particularly to MR. WILLIAM CHAPPELL, Mr. JAMES HENRY Dixon, and DR. RIMBAULT.
- R. W. DIXON. Seaton-Carew co. Durham

As far as I know no response to Dixon query was made. However in 1880 Child himself was trying to track down the black-letter mentioned by Emun:


Ballad Of "May Culzean; Or, False Sir John."—I want very much an exact copy of the black-letter broadside which was in the possession of your Birmingham correspondent Emun when he wrote to "N. & Q.," 1" S. iii. 208; also of the printed stall ballad, of about 1749, entitled The Western Tragedy, which is mentioned by Motherwell at p. lxx of the Introduction to his Minstrelsy; and I should be glad to have the later stall print called The Historical Ballad of May Culzean, referred to by Motherwell at the same place. To prevent misunderstanding, I will say that I have the Roxburghe copy, and all that are printed in collections. F. J. Child.

Harvard College, Cambridge, Mass., U.S.A.

* * * *

There is a chapbook copy of Western Tragedy dated 1790 held the Library of Scotland and they are willing to sell me a copy which I should get soon. Not sure why they just don't include it in their collection online. I've already posted (earlier in this thread) The Historical Ballad of May Culzean. The Harvard copy of Western Tragedy is hung up by red tape-- I need to talk to the right people at the library.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:05 AM

Hi,

According to Barry (British Ballads from Maine, 1929): "The ballad seems to be an early arrival in America, as evidenced from its wide dispersion from purely English sources."

Two early versions of Child F (False Knight Outwitted) with the "nettles" stanza are given by Barry from Mass. and Maine which makes me wonder if the 1710? date is accurate.

The "pretty Polly" versions are all English source versions derived ultimately from the two broadsides and their unknown antecedents-- such as the supposed black-letter possessed by EMUN in 1851.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 02:56 PM

Richie 11 Apr 18 - 11:26 AM
> Child G, the Irish "The Knight and the Chief's Daughter" has "my colleen" and introduces "willow tree" found in later traditional versions in the US.

What am I missing? Where is Child 4G to be found?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 04:14 PM

Hi,

The following is a quote from J. H. Dixon in Notes and Queries, April 11, 1868, p. 344. In this post he says he was the author of the 1827 Hone version, which is heavily reworked- Dixon also at a young age became as a friend of John Pitts the printer who said the broadside dates back to John Marshall, Pitts' mentor (at least late 1700s). Dixon, without offering proof, also claims to have seen "Black-letter copies" of Outlandish Knight.

"THE OUTLANDISH KNIGHT." (4th S. I. 221.)

The article in Hone, quoted by your correspondent, was a juvenile contribution by myself. He might have known this from a note to "Wearies' Well" (Scottish Traditional Versions, Percy Society's publications). He will also find, from a note inserted at p. 64 (Ballads of the Peasantry, &c, second edition), that an old copy of the original bullad is preserved in the Roxburgh collection (Museum Library). I have also seen black-letter copies. The ballad is very old, and perfectly genuine; to suppose it a "modern antique," is an absurdity. As I am about to publish at Bristol a work to be entitled The Redclyjfe Book of Ballads, I shall say little more on this subject. Let it suffice for the present to remark that I have a Swiss-German ballad, "Das Giiggibader Lied," and an Italian ballad, " La bela Monfrejna," on a similar theme. Both ballads are very old, and written in patois—the first-named in the patois of Argovie, the second in that of Piemont. Full particulars will be given in the Redclyffe Book of Ballads. When I sent the ottered ballad to Hone, the remarks quoted were perfectly true, and so they are now. The gentleman from whom I obtained my copy of the original was a Mr. Richardson, of Berwick, a stock-broker, who died in London many years ago—I think at his residence near Deptford in Kent.

My visit to Mr. Pitt's led to an intimacy between us. He was at that time quite blind. I was somewhat surprised to find in the ballad printer of Seven Dials a gentlemanly well-educated man, with a wonderful stock of information on ballad and chap-book literature.

J. H. Dixon.

Florence.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 04:23 PM

Hi Steve,

When were black-letter broadsides last printed? Isn't 1720 the latest? If there were a black letter of Outlandish Knight without imprint what would be a reasonable range of dates or is that impossible to tell without examination?

Richard-- This is what I have for 4G:

'The Knight and the Chief's Daughter'- Child 4G; British Museum, Manuscript Addit. 20094, communicated to Mr. T. Crofton Croker in 1829, as remembered by Mr. W. Pigott Rogers, and believed by Mr. Rogers to have been learned by him from an Irish nursery-maid. No date given when Rogers first learned this but estimated to be from late 1700s.

1    'Now steal me some of your father's gold,
And some of your mother's fee,
And steal the best steed in your father's stable,
Where there lie thirty three.'

2    She stole him some of her father's gold,
And some of her mother's fee,
And she stole the best steed from her father's stable,
Where there lay thirty three.

3    And she rode on the milk-white steed,
And he on the barb so grey,
Until they came to the green, green wood,
Three hours before it was day.

4    'Alight, alight, my pretty colleen,
Alight immediately,
For six knight's daughters I drowned here,
And thou the seventh shall be.'

5    'Oh hold your tongue, you false knight villain,
Oh hold your tongue,' said she;
'Twas you that promised to marry me,
For some of my father's fee.'

6    'Strip off, strip off your jewels so rare,
And give them all to me;
I think them too rich and too costly by far
To rot in the sand with thee.'

7    'Oh turn away, thou false knight villain,
Oh turn away from me;
Oh turn away, with your back to the cliff,
And your face to the willow-tree.'

8    He turned about, with his back to the cliff,
And his face to the willow-tree;
So sudden she took him up in her arms,
And threw him into the sea.

9    'Lie there, lie there, thou false knight villain,
Lie there instead of me;
'T was you that promised to marry me,
For some of my father's fee.'

10    'Oh take me by the arm, my dear,
And hold me by the hand,
And you shall be my gay lady,
And the queen of all Scotland.'

11    'I'll not take you by the arm, my dear,
Nor hold you by the hand;
And I won't be your gay lady,
And the queen of all Scotland.'

12    And she rode on the milk-white steed,
And led the barb so grey,
Until she came back to her father's castle,
One hour before it was day.

13    And out then spoke her parrot so green,
From the cage wherein she lay:
Where have you now been, my pretty colleen,
This long, long summer's day?

14    'Oh hold your tongue, my favourite bird,
And tell no tales on me;
Your cage I will make of the beaten gold,
And hang in the willow-tree.'

15    Out then spoke her father dear,
From the chamber where he lay:
Oh what hath befallen my favourite bird,
That she calls so loud for day?

16    'Tis nothing at all, good lord,' she said,
'Tis nothing at all indeed;
It was only the cat came to my cage-door,
And I called my pretty colleen.'

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 01:39 AM

Richie,
> Richard-- This is what I have for 4G:

Thank you. NOW I have found it in volume II. I had made the mistake of looking at the "Outlandish knight" entries in the index, which only give volumes I and V, instead of "Lady Isabel and the Elf-knight".

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:05 PM

Hi
There are lots of difficulties with much of the recently posted conjecture. Without the evidence before us our hands are largely tied. I still find it difficult to believe that two people claim to have seen a black letter copy, one of them such an antiquarian as Dixon, and no copy has apparently survived. Apart from which someone like Dixon would surely have published it or passed it on to the likes of Furnivall, Chappell or Ebsworth to publish.

Richard Marshall would have been later 18thc and a printing by him would be very plausible.

It is quite difficult to say with any accuracy when black letter finally died out. The normal general date is 1700 but some printers would have gone on after this. 1720 looks like a reasonable guess to me. Some of the later 18thc printers right up to 1800 and beyond used the odd blackletter on the title pages of chapbooks, songsters and garlands, but not for the small print. Whereas a useful number of 1680s 90s broadsides were dated very few ballads were dated after 1700.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:08 PM

You mention Barry's 2 versions from Mass. & Maine as being 'early'. How early? We need to remember that oral tradition can work very quickly even across oceans. It would be nothing for an English 1780 version to be disseminated in New England by the early 19thc.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 01:53 PM

Hi Richard,

The several mysterious US texts which have appeared since c. 1950 with the "Willow Tree" title (see 4G above which also has "willow tree") seem to be of recent manufacture and have not been documented earlier. One curiously is from a Polish immigrant from NY, which may be the original. Peggy Seeger also recorded a version.

The Willow Tree (American Version) as posted on John Renfro Davis' site: The Contemplator

There was a youth, a cruel youth,
Who lived beside the sea,
Six little maidens he drowned there
By the lonely willow tree.

As he walked o'er with Sally Brown,
As he walked o'er with she,
And evil thought came to him there,
By the lonely willow tree.

O turn you back to the water's side,
And face the willow tree,
Six little maidens I've drowned here,
And you the seventh shall be.

Take off, take off, your golden crown,
Take off your gown, cried he.
For though I am going to murder you
I would not spoil your finery.

Oh, turn around, you false young man,
Oh turn around, cried she,
For 'tis not meet that such a youth
A naked woman should you see.

He turned around, that false young man,
And faced the willow tree,
And seizing him boldly in both her arms,
She threw him into the sea.

Lie there, lie there, you false young man,
Lie there, lie there, cried she,
Six little maidens you've drowned here,
Now keep them company!

He sank beneath the icy waves,
He sank down into the sea,
And no living thing wept a tear for him,
Save the lonely willow tree.

* * * *

Hi Steve,

TY for the black-letter dates. You're right of course about the black-letter reports being unreliable. Dixon didn't say he had a copy only that he'd "seen black-letter copies" - plural. The other informant, EMUN, said he had a copy.

Barry's versions can't be identified as from the 1700s, one goes back he says, "three generations" which is probably early 1800s. Barry has exaggerated early dates so I'm assume he meant the date as an "early arrival" with the early settlers to be late 1600s, early 1700s.

The British Library date of "1710?" was assigned in the late 1800s and Child added that date in his additions and corrections. Usually the guestimated date wouldn't be 70 years off. Still, the "1710?" date may not be an accurate date-- leaving us with confirmed late 1700s dates and the possibility of a missing black-letter version of Outlandish Knight,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 05:35 PM

Hi,

Single stanza with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/233, Disc Side 227, 04:21; AFC 1972/001, MS p. 08479. Notes: William Butler was aged 75 at the time Carpenter collected from him. (p.09773)

The Outlandish Knight- sung by William Butler of 2 New Road, Bampton (p.09773.) near Bampton in the Bush, c. 1930.

No prittle nor prattle, my pretty Polly
Nor tell no tales of me;
And thy cage shall be made of the glittering gold,
And thy door of the best ivory.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 06:22 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/N, pp. 08474-08475
Reference Code        AFC 1972/001, MS pp. 04929- 04931. Standard version missing one stanza, the "prattle" stanza.

Outlandish Knight- sung William Hands of Willersley, Glouchester, England. Collected by Carpenter about 1930

1. An outlandish knight came from the northlands
An' he came a-wooing to me;
He told me he'd take me unto the northlands,
An' there he would marry me.

2   "Go fetch me some of your father's gold,
An' some of your mother's fee,
An' two of the best nags out of the stable,
Where there stands thirty an' three."

3    She fetched him some of her father's gold,
An' some of her mother's fee,
An' two of the best nags out of the stable,
Where there stood thirty an' three.

4    She mounted her on her milk-white steed,
An' he on the dapple grey;
They rode till they came unto the seaside,
Three hours before it was day.

5    "Mount off, mount off thy milk-white steed,
An' deliver it unto me;
For six pretty maidens have I drowned here,
An' thou the seventh one thou shalt be.

6   "Pull off, pull off thy silken gown,
An' deliver it unto me;
Methinks that's too rich an' costly
To rot all in the salt sea.

7    'Pull off, pull off thy Holland smock,
An' deliver them unto me;
For I think it they are too rich an' costly
To rot all in the salt sea.

8   "If I must pull off my Holland smock,
Pray turn your back unto me;
For it's not fitting that such a ruffian
A naked woman should see."

9    He turned his back right unto her
An' gazed at the leaves so green;
She caught him round the middle so small,
An' plunged him into the stream.

10    He grooped high and he grooped low,
Until he came to the side;
"Catch hold of my hand, my pretty Polly,
An' I'll make you my bride.'

11   "Lie there, lie there, you false-hearted knight,
Lie there instead o' me;
For six pretty maidens have you drowned here,
But the seventh hath drowned thee.'

12    She mounted on her milk-white steed,
An' led the dapple grey;
She rode till she came to her own father's hall,
Three hours before it was day.

13    The parrot being up in the window so high,
An' hearing his lady, did say,
"I fear that some ruffian hath led you astray,
That you have tarry so long before day."

14 Her father being up in the chamber so high,
An' hearing the parrot did say,
"What ails you, what ails you, my pretty parrot,
That you prattle so long before day?"

15 "It's no laughing matter," the parrot did say,
"So loudly I cry unto thee,
The cat has gotten up in the window so high,
An' I was afraid he would have me."

16    'Well answered, well answered, my pretty parrot,
Well answered back for me;
Thy cage shall be made of the glittering gold,
An' the door of the best ivory."

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 12:05 AM

Hi,

This US version, titled the generic titles Fause Sir John (Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight) uses the Lord Lovel form.

My title is the first line, replacing the generic titles. From the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/7/1/C, pp. 10639-10642. The stanzas are not in the correct order and the action is confusing.

O what's the matter, my pretty Polly- sung by Mrs Becky F. Jones of Route 1, box 122 of Cary, NC, c. 1939

"O what's the matter, my pretty Polly,
That you sing so loud before it's day?"
You've come riding your father's best grey nag,
And a-leading of the tabby grey, grey, grey,
And a-leading of the tabby grey.

CHORUS: "O hush, hush pretty parrot bird,
Pray don't tell no tales on me,
For your cage shall be lined with the brightest leaves of gold,
Swing on the green willow tree, tree,
And swing on the green willow tree."

"O what's the matter, my pretty Polly,
That you sing so loud before it's day?
There comes a cat all to my window,
Caused Polly for to drive him away, away,
Caused Polly for to drive him away."

CHORUS

"O hold your hands, my pretty Polly,
O hold your hands to me,
For my body will be drowned in the cold water deep
And sink to the bottom of the sea, sea,
And sink to the bottom of the sea."

"Lie there, lie there you false lying villyan!
Lie there in the room of me,
For here you have drowned six kings daughters,
And you are the seven one shall be, be,
And you are the seven one shall be."

CHORUS

So she mounted her father's best grey nag,
Leading of the tabby grey,
She rode to her father's stable door,
Three long hours before it was day, day,
Three long hours before it was day.

"O what is the matter, my pretty Polly,
That you ride so long before it is day?
You come riding into your father's stable door,
Three long hours before it was day, day,
Three long hours before it was day."

CHORUS

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 08:25 AM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/E, pp. 11721-11722
Reference Code        AFC 1972/001, MS pp. 04924- 04926. Parrot is named Polly, missing the "prattle" stanza

Outlandish Knight- sung by Mrs Sarah Phelps of Avening, Stroud, Gloucestershire, England. Collected by Carpenter about 1930. Learned as a girl over 50 years ago; from mother, and neighbors; never learned from print.

1. An outlandish knight came from the northwest
He came a-'ooing me;
He told me he'd take me unto the northwest,
An' there he would marry me.

2   "Go fetch me some of your father's gold,
An' some of your mother's fee,
An' two of the best nags out of the stable,
Where there stands thirty an' three."

3    She fetched him some of her father's gold,
An' some of her mother's fee,
An' two of the very best nags out of the stable,
Where there stood thirty an' three.

4    She mounted her on her lily-white steed,
He on the dapple grey;
They rode till they came unto the seaside,
Three hours before it was day.

5    "Mount off, mount off thy lily-white steed,
An' deliver it unto me;
For six pretty maidens have I drowned here,
An' the seventh thou shalt be.

6   "Take off, take off thy silken dress,
An' deliver it unto me;
For I thinks it looks too rich by far
To rot all in the salt sea."

7   "If I must take off my silken dress,
Pray turn your back to me;
For it is not fitting that such a ruffian
A naked woman should see."

8    He turned his back towards her
An' viewed the leaves so green;
She caught him round the middle so small,
An' bundled him into the sea.

9    He growped high and he growped low,
Until he came to the side;
"Take hoult o' my hand, my pretty lady,
An' I will make you my bride.'

10   "Lie there, lie there, you false-hearted man,
Lie there instead of me;
For if six pretty maids thou hast drowned here,
The seventh hath drowned thee.'

11    She mounted on her lily-white steed,
An' led the debble grey;
She rode till she came to her own father's door,
Three hours before it was day.

12    The parrot being up in the window so high,
An' seein' his lady, did say,
"I fear that some ruffian hath led you astray,
That you've tarried so long away."

13 The king being up in the chamber so high,
An' hearin' the parrot did say,
"What ails you, what ails you, my pretty Polly,
That you prattle so long before day?"

14 "It's no laughing matter," the parrot replied,
"That so loudly I called unto thee,
For the cats have gotten into the window so high,
An' I'm afraid they will have me."

15    "Well turned, well turned, my pretty Polly,
Well turned, well turned for me;
Thy cage shall be made of some glittering gold,
An' the door of the best ivory."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 09:05 AM

Hi,

Single stanza of text from: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/7/1/C, p. 10674. Uses lord Lovel form.

Lady Isabel- sung by Professor G. R. Madison of Farmington, NC, about 1939. Collected or sent to Carpenter.

He jumped on a double-down black,
And she on the dapple grey;
They rode till they got to the broad waters,
Three hours before it was day, day,
Three hours before it was day.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 09:20 AM

Hi Richie,
Is that 'Lord Lovel' form common in the States? Intriguing!

Just a suggestion. As all but 2 of the States versions are obviously derived from 'The Outlandish Knight' where a local title is lacking or the collector has used his/her own editorial title why not use the obvious (The Outlandish knight) in brackets to indicate it is editorial?

In most instances I use Child's titles but this is one case where I prefer to use the most commonly recognised title. (I totally refuse to use the spurious title 'Ed***d' for unlucky 13.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 09:36 AM

Hi,

James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/M, pp. 06999-07000. Both the maid and parrot are named "pretty Pollee." Stanza 14 was missing two lines, filled in with standard text.

Outlandish Knight- sung by William Newman of Stanway Hill, Gloucestershire, England. Collected by Carpenter about 1930.

1. An outlandish knight came from the north land
He came a-'ooing me;
Said he would take me to a distant land,
An' there he would marry me.

2   "He asked her for some of her father's gold,
An' some of her mother's fee,
An' two of the best nags out of the stable,
Where there stands thirty an' three."

3    She fetched him some of her father's gold,
An' some of her mother's fee,
An' two of the very best nags out o' the stable,
Where there stand thirty an' three.

4    She mounted her on her milk-white horse,
An' he on the dapple grey;
They rode till they came to a waterside,
Three hours before it was day.

5    "Light off, light off thy milk-white steed,
An' deliver him unto me;
For six pretty maidens I've drowned here,
An' thou the seventh shalt be.

6   "Pull off, pull off thy silken gown,
An' deliver it unto me;
For it is too rich an' too gay
To be buried all in the salt sea."

7   "If I must pull off my silken gown,
Pray turn your back unto me;
For it is not fittin' a man like you
An undressed woman should see."

8    He turned his back towards her
An' viewed the river so green;
She took him round the middle so small,
An' bundled him into the stream.

9    He growped high and he growped low,
Until he came to the side;
"Take hold of my hand, my fair lady,
An' thou shalt be my bride."

10   "Lie there, lie there, you false-hearted man,
Lie there instead of me;
For six pretty maids you've drowned here,
An' the seventh has drowned thee.'

11    She mounted on her lily-white steed,
An' led the dapple grey;
She rode till she came to her own father's house,
Three hours before it was day.

12    The parrot being up in the window so high,
An' hering the missus did say,
"What ails thee, what ails thee, my pretty lady
That you should tarry so long before day?"

13 Her father being up in the chamber so high,
An' hearing the parrot did say,
"What ails thee, what ails thee, my pretty Pollee,
That you prattle so long before day?"

14 ["It's no laughing matter,"] the parrot did say,
["That so loudly I called unto thee,]
The cat being up in the plum so high,
I thought he would have had me."

15    "Well turned, well turned, my pretty Pollee,
Well turned, well turned," said she;
"Thy cage shall be made of the glittering gold,
An' the door of the best ivory."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 10:42 AM

Yes the parrot/maid cross-over for 'Polly' seems to be quite common. I think the girl was called Polly first but probably neither in the original.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 03:18 PM

Hi,

The next Carpenter versions are found under Child No. 7, Earl Brand with a master title, "Douglas Tragedy," Roud 23.

This is the first page of the Ross version (James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/F, p. 08091)- I'll add more soon.

The Douglas Tragedy- sung by William Ross of Balquhindochy, by Turriff, learned about 1880.

1. "Oh, come doon the stairs, Lord Douglas," she cried,
Put on your armour so bright,
Ne'er let it be said that a daughter o' thine,
should be married to a lord or a knight.

2. "Oh, come doon the stairs, ye seven sons so bold,
Put on your armour so bright,
And tak' better care of your youngest sister dear,
For your eldest is away last night."

3. He [Lord William] has mounted her on his milk-white steed,
Himsel' on the dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hangin' doon by his side,
So lightly as they both rode away.

4. They rode on, an' on they rode,
By the light o' the moon so clear,
It was then that he spied her seven brethren bold,
It was then she began for to fear.

5. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
It was then that he spied her seven brethren bold,
Comin' ridin' doon by the sea.

6. "Oh hold my steed, Lady Margaret," he cried,
"Oh hold it with your hand,
And I will fight your seven brethren bold
And your father I will make stand."

7. She held his steed with her milk-white hand,
And she never shed a tear,
Until she saw her seven brethren fall,
It was then she began to fear.

8. "Leave off, leave off," Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes are wondrous sair,
Plenty of sweethearts I will get,
But a father I will never get nae mair."

9. She's ta'en out her handkerchief,
Doon in yonder lowlands so fine,
And she has wiped his bloody wounds,
They were redder than the wine.

10. They rode on, an' on they rode,
It was still by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to a clear running stream,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

11. They both lighted doon for to tak a drink,
O' the waters that ran so clear.
It was then that she spied guide's heart blood,
It was then she began for to fear.

12. "Hold up, hold up Lord William," she cried,
"I'm afraid you have been slain."
"It's only but my scarlet cloak,
That shines on the waters so plain."

13. He's mounted her on his milk-white steed,
Himsel on the dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hanging down by his side,
So sadly they both rode away.

14. They rode on, an' on they rode,
It was still by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to his own mother's door,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

15. "Rise up, rise up, Lady mother, he cried,
"Rise up and let me in.
Rise up, rise up, for this very night,
My fair lady I did win."

16. "Mak my bed, Lady mother," he cried,
Mak it broad an' deep,
Place Lady Margaret at my back,
And the sounder I shall sleep."

17. But Lord William was dead long before midnight,
Lady Margaret long ere day,
And may ilka twa that go thegither,
May they have better luck than they.

18. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirk yard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's square,
And oot o' the lady's grave there grew a red rose,
And oot o' the knight's a sweet briar.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 06:02 PM

Yes, it's a shame Child put this series of ballads under one number. They are clearly separate songs that tell the same story. Had he featured them later in the collection I'm sure he would have at least separated Earl Brand from The Douglas Tragedy.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 09:41 AM

Are they all 'Douglas tragedy'?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 12:54 PM

Hi,

As you can imagine I'm still finishing up Child 4, but the end is near!

Here's an interesting version of Child 4B, Wearies Well (incremental depths of the water), sung by and old African-American woman in Waco Texas, as learned c1875, from The Trail Of Negro Folk-Songs; Dorothy Scarborough 1925:

There was a tall an' handsome man,
Who come a-courtin' me.
He said, "Steal out atter dark to-night
An' come a-ridin' with me, with me,
An' come a-ridin' with me.

"An' you may ride your milk-white steed
An' I my apple bay."
We rid out from my mother's house
Three hours befo' de day, de day,
Three hours befo' de day.

I mounted on my milk-white steed
And he rode his apple bay.
We rid on til we got to the ocean,
An' den my lover say, lover say,
An' den my lover say:

"Sit down, sit down, sweetheart," he say,
"An' listen you to me.
Pull off dat golden robe you wears
An' fold hit on yo' knee, yo' knee,
An' fold hit on yo' knee."

I ax him why my golden robe
Must be folded on his knee.
"It is too precious to be rotted away
By the salt water sea, water sea,
By the salt water sea."

I say, "Oh, sweetheart, carry me back home,
My mother for to see,
For I'm a-feared I'll drowned be
In this salt water sea, water sea,
In this salt water sea."

He tuck my hand and drug me in
I say, "Oh, sweetheart, take me back!
The water's up to my feet, my feet,
The water's up to my feet."

He smile at me an' draw me on,
"Come on, sweetheart, sweetheart,
We soon will be across the stream,
We 've reached the deepest part, deepest part,
We've reached the deepest part."

As I went on I cry an' say,
"The water's up to my knees!
Oh, take me home! I'm a-feared to be drowned
In this salt water sea, water sea,
In this salt water sea."

He pull me on an' say, "Sweetheart,
Lay all your fears aside.
We soon will be across it now
We 've reached the deepest tide, deepest tide,
We've reached the deepest tide."

I sank down in the stream an' cry,
"The water's up to my waist."
He pull at me an' drug me on;
He say, "Make haste, make haste, make haste."
He say, "Make haste, make haste."

I cry to him, "The water's up to my neck."
"Lay all your fears aside.
We soon will be across it now,
We 've reached the deepest tide, deepest tide,
We've reached the deepest tide."

I caught hol' of de tail of my milk-white steed,
He was drowned wid his apple bay.
I pulled out of de water an' landed at my mother's house
An hour befo' de day, de day,
An hour befo' de day.

My mother say, "Pretty Polly, who is dat,
A-movin' softily?"
An' I say to my Polly, "Pretty Polly,
Don't you tell no tales on me, on me,
Don't you tell no tales on me."

An' my mother say, "Is dat you, Polly?
Up so early befo' day?"
"Oh, dat mus' be a kitty at yo' door,"
Is all my Polly say, Polly say,
Is all my Polly say.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:44 PM

Hmmmm! Something fishy here! 4B as we've already established is 99% certain a one-off Peter Buchan fabrication, as is 4A. I haven't got Scarborough but I'm going to be looking hard for a copy now. Now if she had learnt it c1875 that's before Child published Part 1 in 1882 so the only other source would be Buchan's Ancient Ballads of the North of Scotland, or perhaps more likely a composite version using all the versions to hand. I'll investigate this further.

As we have seen occasionally with the likes of Gainer and Reed-Smith when collectors are being paid/receiving academic kudos to come up with interesting/different versions, it can also lead to fabrication.

Whatever this Texas version is it can only realistically be derived from a composite.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:52 PM

Richie,
Once again can I please recommend you start a new thread when you move on to 7. Those long threads take a long time to digest and anyone looking to follow a particular ballad can find it more easily if it has its own thread.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:57 PM

Okay a quick and simple analysis of the sources stanza by stanza.
1-5 paraphrase 'Outlandish knight'.
6 is found only in A and continental versions whence Buchan took it.
7-11 are all derived from Buchan's B version. (The irony is that Buchan has been Buchanised!)
12-14 paraphrase 'Outlandish Knight'.

Now if we can find a composite from say 1850 that matches then fair enough, 25 years from print to oral is nothing, but if not then Scarborough herself comes under strong suspicion!

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:37 PM

Steve

You can download Scarborough here: On The Trail Of Negro Folk Songs

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:43 PM

Hi,

The headnotes are finished for Child 4: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/english-and-other-versions-4-lady-isabel-.aspx

I have around 400 versions and am categorizing them now by listing them at the beginning- it's been a struggle ;)

I'll start working on Earl Brand/Lord Douglas and need to go over all the Carpenter versions so I can answer Steve's question.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 04:13 PM

Hi Steve,

As far as I know, Scarborough did not alter texts or knowingly provide faulty information. She just didn't know the background of many ballads she collected. Also, her African-American ballad (a few posts back) has not been related to Wearie's Well by anyone previously. Although I have not spent the time to get the details of the source-- Amelia Harris may have learned her version(Child's Bc) in Perth from her nurse in the late 1700s-- Child just lists the Harris MSS as the source. I assume it was written down by her daughter(s) by mid-1800's (when the missing MSS were recreated by the sisters- can't remember details now). I know part of Buchan's version was recreated by Buchan or his "source" singer but I don't think the whole ballad version was-- just my opinion.

I'd rather keep this thread open (and start on Earl Brand) until we get to 100 or so posts so we don't have too many threads. I'm trying to give the Carpenter versions but am working on all the UK versions so for Child 4, it took me a while.

As always I appreciate your knowledge, suggestions and opinions -- and the expert advice,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 05:15 PM

I've checked all the usual suspects for any collation of A, B and E and there are none. There are plenty of versions with extra literary interference but none are really collations.

As you might expect I don't put any store in the Harris fragments at all. They must have been taken from Buchan.

Unless there are other American versions with similar collation of 3 different ballads, 2 of them already concocted, then, as with previous examples we've discussed, the Texas collation must come heavily under suspicion.

Mick, as usual, brilliant! Many thanks.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:33 PM

Had a good read through Scarborough and although I don't know a great deal about African American songs I can't find anything else that looks suspicious. Why would she do this just to one ballad? Very puzzling! All other fabricators I've come across, and there are many, certainly dabbled at length.

Richie, can you please keep a look out for other references to this version and indeed any other suspicious -looking versions of 4?

The only place where all 3 variants were found together was ESPB in 1882
unless he gave all 3 in his earlier collection? I don't have the earlier volumes from the 1860s but they're probably online somewhere.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 01:48 PM

Hi,

I'm finished for now with Child 4 and have concluded that the two English prints (Outlandish Knight; False-knight Outwitted) are both secondary prints. There are over a dozen traditional versions of False-knight Outwitted which may be used to supply missing stanzas.

I've reviewed and categorized most of the extant versions, a number of which do not fit the standard ballad types either because they are missing identifiers or they aren't conclusively one type. Here is the section of my headnotes regarding identifiers:

Some Identifiers:

The identifiers are for these ballad types; Child B (Wearie's Well); Child C (May Colvin, Scottish, Herd 1776); Child D (Historical Scottish); Child E (Outlandish Knight); Child F (False Knight Outwitted) and Child G (Irish, "willow tree"). Child A is unique and possibly not authentic and Child H (May Collin) is part of Child C (early Scottish). Although listed separately Child H had more accurately given the "He wooed me butt(outside)" stanza which is the Scottish identifier for the American versions. Most of the traditional versions are English (Outlandish, Child E, my A) Scottish (He followed me up, Child C, my D) or have the "willow tree" stanza (Child G, my E). Below are identifiers with my letter designations:

A. "The Outlandish Knight," ("An outlandish knight came from the north lands,") similar to or based on the various broadsides (16-18 stanzas); two prints c. 1840 titled "The Old Beau's Courtship."
1. Maid is "Pretty Polly" or "pretty maid" and "outlandish knight" is also "false knight."
2. An outlandish knight comes from "North lands"
3. father's gold, mother's fees
4. She pulls off silken gown, silken stays and holland smock.
5. He views the "leaves so green" and is thrown into a stream (or "the sea").
6. Don't prittle nor prattle (parrot); It's no laughing matter (parrot)
7. "The king is in his chamber"

B. "The False Knight Outwitted: A New Song" [12 stanzas, Englsih] ("Go fetch me some of your father's gold,") BL listed as London? 1710? [1780 date confirmed]
1. takes her to North Lands (see A)
2. Features, Pretty Polly and false knight
3. father's gold, mother's fee,
4. "He fetchd the sickle, to crop the nettle"
5. 'Swim on, swim on, thou false knight"
6. She rides to her "father's house"; father and parrot.

C. "Western Tragedy," (ref. Motherwell, 1749) ["Have ye not heard of (a bludy/bloody knight)
1. Is allegedly based on fact, a historical ballad.
2. Aslo titled "The historical ballad of May Culzean: founded on fact" or after the various names of the maid-- "May Colyean (MacQueen)" etc.
3. Begins with the question "Have ye not heard of (a bludy/bloody knight?"
4. He is "fause (false) Sir John? Wha liv’d in the west country," she is May Culzean, May Colvin, May Collean, or May Collin.
5. Has burial of False Sir John at the end.

D. "May Colven" David Herd, Scottish, published 1776. ("False Sir John a-wooing came,") about 17 stanzas.
1 begins: False Sir John a wooing came; she is May Colven or similarly named
2 He woo'd her butt, he woo'd her ben,
3. They ride and stop at a "rock by the sea."
4. Where he has "drowned seven young ladies" or "seven king's daughters"
5. She "came home to her father's bower"
6. At the end the "king" in is bed chamber.

F. "The Knight and the Chief's Daughter" Irish, learned about 1790 ("Now steal me some of your father's gold") ["willow tree" texts] late 1700s Ireland.
1. She is "pretty colleen," he is false knight (villain)
2. She "steals" father's gold
3. He turned his face to the "willow tree."

G. "The Water o Wearie's Well" early 1800s (Step in, step in, my lady fair,) an Edinburgh variant with incremental immersion in the water of Wearie's Well located in Edinburgh.
1. She is "lady fair," or "King's daughter"
2. He asks her to "Wide in, wide in, my lady fair," and "No harm shall thee befall"
3. "The first step that she stepped in, She stepped to the knee;" then "middle," then "chin."
4. She offers a kiss then Knight is pulled off his horse.
5. She swims "to dry land."

Some of Irish versions with the "pretty colleen" identifier (see: US versions given by Barry in the early 1900s) have a "take you to Scotland" identifier (resembling the "North land" identifier of Outlandish Knight) where he promises, "there I'll marry thee." The same "Scotland" opening is found in other versions. The Scottish versions do not mention "marriage" as an enticement.

Some American versions have the Scottish identifier "He followed me up" and the English name "Pretty Polly" which shows the modifiers have become mixed over time. In some cases the identifiers have become floating stanzas and no longer define a specific ballad type. Other American versions are missing the opening stanza(s) and have the generic core stanzas but are impossible to categorize. They are considered "Generic Versions: Reductions" (see: list of complete versions at top of this page). Complete ballads are categorized at the top of this page-- fragments are found under US/Canada and British pages-- see "Contents."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 02:11 PM

Hi Steve,

Regarding your question. Yes, the American versions have combined identifiers and ballad types, making categorizing some of them impossible.

"Pretty Polly" is identified with the English broadsides but in America the name is a floating name found in Scottish versions. The Scottish "He followed her" :

He followd her butt, he followd her benn,
He followd her through the hall,
Till she had neither tongue nor teeth
Nor lips to say him naw. [May Collin, Child H, c. 1780]

is common in America and should show a Scottish origin but it too is sometimes a floating stanza. Many American versions are missing the opening- what is significant is the Outlandish Knight opening is extremely rare in America which means:

The Outlandish Knight was not the early source for the ballad in America and was not brought over by the early settlers. So the Outlandish Knight is a secondary ballad.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 11:50 PM

Hi,

I just finished the "rough draft" of the headnotes for Gil Brenton, Child 5. Since they are not too long I'll post them, comments welcome, I'm sure there are some minor errors:

* * * *

[This Scottish ballad, about the virtue of a lord's intended bride, died out of tradition in the 1800s. In 1827 William Motherwell never would have expected its demise for he reported[1], "This ballad is very popular, and is known to reciters under a variety of names. I have heard it called Lord Bangwell, Bengwill, Dingwall, Brengwill, etc., and The Seven Sisters, or the Leaves of Lind." A ballad with a complex theme that's sixty to eighty stanzas was simply too long to print as a broadside and too long be remembered and sung by "the mouths of the peasantry." There is no evidence that ballad was collected in America so Motherwell's buoyant assessment of the ballad's popularity seems to be overblown. Shortly after Motherwell's Minstrelsy was published the ballad's popularity began to wane and only two other records of it were found[2]-- the last in 1881.

Child gives eight versions (A-H) and Bronson prints just three melodies with music. The music for Mrs. Brown's version (Child A, "Gil Brenton" or "Chil' Brenton") was written down by a novice musician, Mrs. Brown's nephew, Bob Scott, and is therefore unreliable. As Mrs. Brown's text was given by Child (see below), the two line stanzas are wanting a refrain, tho none was originally written down. A second music version of "Lord Bengwill" was given by William Motherwell and it appeared in his Minstrelsy (Appendix, p. xvi) with one stanza of text. "Lord Bengwill" was transcribed for Motherwell by Andrew Blaikie from Mary Macqueen also known as Mrs. William Storie of Lochwinnoch. Mary Macqueen was Crawfurd's principle informant and also was paid by Motherwell along with her brother Thomas to collect ballads. A third melody was arranged by William Christie (Traditional Ballad Airs, Volume 2, 1881) from the singing of his paternal grandfather, and was sung with the refrain, "Aye, the Birks a-bowing."

Child begins his headnotes by saying[3], "Eight copies of this ballad are extant. . ." which is not entirely accurate. Although Child lists Motherwell's b version, he does not list it as a separate ballad sung by Mrs. Storie. Child did not know the informant since Motherwell just gave one stanza with music. The source and transcriber (Andrew Blaikie of Paisley) were not given. It was not until 1975 when Emily B. Lyle transcribed Andrew Crawfurd's MS that "Lord Bangwell's Adventure" was accessible. Motherwell knew of the MS but for some reason did not print the full text. Here is the missing text:

Fc. "Lord Bangwell's Adventure" from Andrew Crawfurd's Collection of Ballads and Songs, p. 3-5, sung by Mary Macqueen of Lochwinnoch.

1 Seven ladies liv'd in a bower
He down and ho down
An ay the youngest was the flower
He down and ho down

2 They had ae brither amangst them aw
And Sir John they did him caw

3 The seven had to mak him a sark
It was the seven's hale year's wark

4 But whan the sark it was made an dune
They cast lots wha wad with it gang
But the lot fell on the youngest ane

5 As she was gawn through the leaves o Lyne
She met a lord gallant an fine

6 He kept her thare sae lang sae lang
Frae the morning bright to the sune gade doun

7. An frae that again till the next morning,
An aw he gade her at their parting
Was a pair o green gloves a gay gold ring

8 An three plaits o his yellow hair
That was a token if air thay shoud meet mair

9 But whan nine months was past an gane
Lord Bangwell buit a courting gang

10 As he was walking through yon green hall
He saw se'en ladies playan at the baw

11 He threw his baw amang them aw
An on the youngest the baw did faw

12 He threw his gloves amang them aw
An on the youngest the gloves did faw

13 He threw his napkin amang them aw
An on the youngest it did faw

14 He cryde whare will I get a man,
To come and my young bride on.

15 Tha war nane sae readie as Sir John
To come and help his sister on

16 Than out bespak our foremaist man
I think our bride rides slowlie on

17 Then out bespak our hindmaist man
I think our bride rides weepand on

18 O does the wind blaw on your glove
Or are you bound for sum other love

19 Or ar you weary o your life
Because your made Lord Bangwell's wife

20 The wind does not blow on my glove
Nor I am bound for nae other love

21 But I am weary of my life
Because I am made Lord Bangwell's wife

22 As they at Wedding supper sat
An unco pain come in o her back

23 And as they lay aw in Bride's bed
He put his hand for to hap his bride
An there he fand the young thing leap

24 He tok his fit and he gade her a bang
And out o bed himsel he flang

25 He to the hall amang them aw
An on his mother he gade a caw

26 I thought I got a lily flower
But I hae got sume ither man's hure

27 I thought I got a maid meek an mild
But I got a whore an sho is big wi child

28 O dochter O dochter cum tell me
Wha is the faither o your babee

29 As I was walking the leaves of Lyne
I met a lord gallant and fine

30 He kept me there sae lang sae lang
From the morning bright to the sun gade doun

31 An frae that again till the next morning
An aw he gade me at our parting
Was a pair of green gloves and a gay gold ring

32 An thrie plaits of his yellow hair
That was a token if ere we soud meet mair

33 O dochter O dochter cum tell to me
Where is the green

34 O mother O mother gang to the haw
An there ye'll find them wi my claes aw

35 An whan she fand them she kent her son
For on the gloves was writ her name

36 She to the haw amang them aw
And on her son she gade a caw

37 O son O son cum tell to me
Whaur is the green gloves that I gade thee

38 As I was walking the leaves o Lyne
I met a lady gallant an fine

39 I kept her thare sae lang sae lang
Frae the morning bright till the sun gade doun

40 And frae that again till the next morning
An aw I gade her at our parting
It was thir green gloves a gay gold ring

41 An three plaits of my yellow hair
That was a token if ere we soud meet mair

42 An I wad rather than castles and towers
I had that same lady in my bower

43 I wad rather than my very life
I had that same lady for my wife

44 Ye wad not need rather than castles and towers
For ye hae that same lady in your bower

45 You need not rather than your very life
For ye hae that same lady for your wife

46 Go hap my lady wi quilts o' silk
And feed my young son wi woman's milk

47 These words were written on its breast bane
It was Lord Bangwell's sevent son

48 Thae words wore written on its right hand
It was to be heir of aw Lord Bangwell's land.

Macqueen's ballad is shorter than most and uses the standard "Hey down" refrain. In his 1881 book, "Traditional Ballad Airs, Volume 2," William Christie produced an even shorter text (my Db) that "was somewhat like the one given by Mr Buchan, which is here epitomized with some alterations[4]."

Db. "Aye the Birks a-bowing" or, "Lord Dingwall."

1. O we were sisters, sisters seven,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
The fairest women under heaven,
And aye the birks a-bowing.

2. And we kiest kevels us amang,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
Wha wou'd now to the greenwood gang,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

3. A' for to pu' the finest flowers,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
To put around our summer bowers,
And aye the birks a-bowing.

4. I was the youngest o' them a',
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
And this fortune did me befa',
And aye the birks a-bowing.

5. Unto the greenwood I did gang,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
And pu'd the nuts as they down hang,
And aye the birks a-bowing,

6. I hadna stay'd an hour but ane,
A-bowing down, a bowing down;
Till I met wi' a gay young man,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

7. We pu'd the nuts sae late and lang,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
Till the evening set, and the birds they sang,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

8. He gae to me at our parting,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
A chain of gold, and gay gold ring,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

9. And three locks o' his yellow hair,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
And bade me keep them for evermair,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

10. Then for to show I make nae lee,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
Look in my trunk and ye will see,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

11. His mother to the trunk did go,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
To see if that were true or no,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

12. And aye she sought, and aye she flang,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
Till these four things came to her hand,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

13. Then she ran to her son Lord Dingwall,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
And said, "My son, ye'll quickly tell,
And aye the birks a-bowing.

14. Ye'll quickly tell to me this thing,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
What did you wi' my wedding ring?
And aye the birks a-bowing."

15. "O mother dear, I'll tell nae lee,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
I gave it to a gay ladie,
And aye the birks a-bowing.

16. I would gi'e a' my ha's and towers,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
I had this ladie within my bowers,
And aye the birks a-bowing."

17. "Keep well, keep well, your lands and strands,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
Ye hae that ladie within your hands,
And aye the birks a-bowing.

18. Now, my son, to your bower ye'll go,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
And comfort your ladie, she's full of woe,
   And aye the birks a-bowing."

Neither Macqueen's text or Christie's were given by Child whose A version was reserved for one of the eminent Scottish traditional singers: Anna Gordon Brown or "Mrs. Brown" of Old Machar, Aberdeenshire. Mrs. Brown learned her ballads from "her aunt, her mother and an old nurse of the family[5]." In 1783 Mrs. Brown prepared manuscripts of twenty ballad for William Tytler (5Aa, Jamieson-Brown MSS) who later requested the tunes be added. Mrs Brown's nephew Bob Scott, a "mere novice in musick" wrote out fifteen tunes (5Ab, William Tytler-Brown MSS) which were sent to William Tytler and later copied by Joseph Ritson. The first MSS was given to Jamieson, while the MSS with tunes disappeared, leaving only Ritson's copy which is now at the Harvard Library. In the Jamieson's copy the intended husband is "Gil Brenton" while in the William Tytler MS he is "Chil' Brenton." The ballad text, as properly arranged by Child[6], is wanting of a refrain, which may have been omitted by Brown's source presumable to shorten the duration of the 76 stanza version. Only a few stanza are given:

1    Gil Brenton has sent oer the fame,
He's woo'd a wife an brought her hame.

2    Full sevenscore o ships came her wi,
The lady by the greenwood tree.

3    There was twal an twal wi beer an wine,
An twal an twal wi muskadine:

The ballad story, much simplified and including other versions, is this: Gil Brenton has selected a wife and brought her home. There's only one problem, it is later revealed that she's pregnant. When his mother is sent to question his intended bride, the bride admits a dalliance with a young man who gave her certain tokens (a lock of his hair, a string of beads, a gold ring, and a knife) which she must keep. After his mother examines the tokens she realizes that they are the very same tokens she had given her son. The maid was pregnant by her son, the intended groom! His mother goes and questions her son who admits he gave the tokens to a maid who he now wishes were his wife. His mother then explains that his earlier lover is, in fact, his intended bride. Months later after they are married, a son is born and on his breast bone is written "Gil Brenton is my father's name."

Anna Brown's ballad ends as such:

73    Now or a month was come an gone,
This lady bare a bonny young son.

74    An it was well written on his breast-bane
'Gil brenton is my father's name.'

* * * *

Child B, "Cospatrick," is from Sir Walter Scott's Minstrelsy, ii, 117 (1802). It is a composite, arranged by Scott from the recitation of his relative Miss Christian Rutherford with text borrowed from Herd's "Bothwell," and Mrs. Brown's "Child Brenton." According to Scott: "Cospatrick (Comes Patricius) was the designation of the Earl of Dunbar, in the days of Wallace and Bruce[7]."

The name, Cospatrick, is apparently from Major Henry Hutton of the Royal Artillery who sent three stanzas to Scott (24th December, 1802 Letters, I, No 77) as recollected by his father and the family ("Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No 18).

Eight years after Scott's sixty-one stanza composite a version, "We were sisters, we were seven," was published in Cromek's "Remains of Nithsdale and Galloway Song," p. 207, (1810) arranged from "a peasant woman of Galloway, upwards of ninety-years of age" by Alan Cunningham who significantly recreated many versions in the edition-- passing them off as traditional. Cromek and Cunningham's headnotes follow, which were critical of Scott's composite[8]:

"This curious legend is one among a considerable number which were copied from the recital of a peasant woman of Galloway, upwards of ninety years of age. They were all evidently productions of a very remote date, and, whatever might be their poetical beauties, were so involved in obscurity as to render any attempt at illustration useless. This tale was preserved as a specimen of the rest, being not only the clearest in point of style, but possessing a character of originality which cannot fail to interest the reader. Though not strictly what may be called a fairy tale, it is narrated in a similar way. The transitions are abrupt, yet artfully managed, so as to omit no circumstance of the story which the imagination of the reader may not naturally supply. The singular character of Billie Blin' (the Scotch Brownie, and the lubbar fiend of Milton) gives the whole an air of the marvellous, independently of the mystic chair, on which the principal catastrophe of the story turns.

In the third volume of Mr. Scott's Border Minstrelsy there is a ballad called " Cospatrick," founded on three more imperfect readings of this ancient fragment, interspersed with some patches of modern imitation. The entire piece is not so long as the present copy, and the supplementary part but ill accords with the rude simplicity of the original. It is like the introduction of modern masonry to supply the dilapidations of a Gothic ruin; the style of architecture is uniform, but the freshness and polish of the materials destroy the effect of the ancient structure, and it can no longer be contemplated as a genuine relique of past ages.

There are many incongruities in Mr. Scott's copy, which it is strange that so able an antiquary could have let pass. For example:—

"When bells were rung, and mass was said,
And a' men unto bed were gane."

In the Romish service we never heard of mass being said in the evening, but vespers, as in the original here given. Mr. Scott also omits that interesting personage the "Billie Blin," and awkwardly supplies the loss by making the bed, blanket, and sheets speak, which is an outrage on the consistency even of a fairy tale."

Child commented: "Though overlaid with verses of Cunningham's making (of which forty or fifty may be excided in one mass) and though retouched almost everywhere, both the ground work of the story and some genuine lines remain unimpaired. The omission of most of the passage referred to, and the restoration of the stanza form, will give us, perhaps, a thing of shreds and patches, but still a ballad as near to genuine as some in Percy's Reliques or even Scott's Minstrelsy."

Then in his End-notes Child added: "There is small risk in pronouncing 24. 25, 42, 43, 80, 81 spurious, and Cunningham surpasses his usual mawkishness in 83."

Four years later when "Illustrations of Northern Antiquities" was published, Robert Jamieson and Sir Walter Scott responded to Cromek's and Cunningham's comments in the notes to Jamieson's translation of "Ingefred and Gudrune," an analogue of Gil Brenton[9]:

"In a publication (of no credit) which has just reached us, entitled "Remains of Nithsdale and Galloway Song," by R. H. Cromek, (which is executed in such a manner as, were it of sufficient importance, to bring the authenticity of all popular poetry in question,) there is a very poor and mutilated copy of "Gil Brenton," in a note upon which is the following passage: "There are many incongruities in Mr Scott's copy, which it is strange that so able an antiquary could have let pass. For example, we never hear of mass being said in the evening, but vespers, as in the original here given. Mr Scott also omits that interesting personage, the "Billie Blin," and awkwardly supplies the loss by making the bed, blankets, and sheets, speak, which is an outrage on the consistency even of a fairy tale."

Now, in Mr Scott's copies, and the present writer's, where the hero is called Gil Brenton, the blankets and sheets are just as in the Minstrelsy; there is no word of "Billie Blin," and we doubt if ever any reciter of the ballad mentioned him; and as to vespers, neither the thing itself, nor the name, is known among the peasantry of Scotland; whereas the mass, having been the war-cry of the Reformers, and afterwards of the Covenanters, during the struggles between presbytery and episcopacy, is still familiar to every one."

* * * *

Buchan published a version "Lord Dingwall," in his Ballads of the North of Scotland, I, 204, 1828. He commented[10]:

"This ballad has all the insignia of antiquity stamped upon it; and records one of those romantic fashions said to exist in the Highlands of Scotland some hundred years ago. I am not inclined to think that the hero of the piece was any of the Lords Dingwall, although its name would imply as much; but rather a Highland chieftain, or Laird of Dingwall, a royal borough in Ross-shire; if such be the real name of the ballad; of which I am dubious, for Sir Richard Preston was created Lord Dingwall by King James, in 1607, by patent, to the heirs of his body. His only daughter and heir, Lady Elizabeth, married James, the great Duke of Ormond. His grandson, James, second and last Duke, claimed, in 1710, the Scotch honour of Dingwall; for which he was allowed to vote at the election of the sixteen peers the same year. This title was forfeited by his attainder, in 1715. From this we may see, that none of the Lords of Dingwall resided in the Highlands, but most part in England, which confirms my opinion.

In an imperfect copy of a ballad somewhat similar in incident to this one, the hero of the piece is called “Lord Bothwell;” but which of the two is the true title, I am not determined to say."

Buchan's improved refrains have been wed with other texts including Cospatrick in later editions of Scottish ballads[11]. Christie later shortened shortened and arranged Buchan's text for this melody.

About the next year (1829-30) the noted Scottish historian and writer John Hill Burton (b.1809) from Aberdeen and later Edinburgh wrote out a fragment from recitation (no informant was named) that became part of George Ritchie Kinloch MSS.

Several years later in 1833 Andrew Picken included a fragment of text (my I version) in "Traditionary Stories of Old Familes and Legendary Illustrations of Family Histry, 1833." On page 62 in the section, "The Three Maids of Loudon" the following stanzas appear. This excerpt includes part of the text:

The voices of the maidens rose sweet and soft in their arched chamber, but they had not chanted more than a stanza or two of their simple song, running thus,

“Seven pretty sisters dwelt in a bower,
   With a hey-down, and a ho-down;
And they twined the silk, and they work'd the flower,
Sing a hey-down, and a ho-down.

“And they began for seven years' wark,
      With a hey-down, and a ho-down,
All for to make their dear loves a sark,
    With a hey-down, and a ho-down.

“O three long years were pass'd and gone,
      With a hey-down, and a ho-down,
And they had not finish’d a sleeve but one
    With a hey-down, and a ho-down.

O we’ll to the woods, and we’ll pull a rose,
    With a hey-down, and a ho-down;
And up they sprang all at this propose,
   With a hey-down, and a ho-down;”

when the loud sound of a horn without startled their lady, and hushed the whole into instant silence. As they listened and looked in each other's faces, the note rang through the distant woods, and reveberated away from the castle walls with a thousand prolonged echoes.

* * * *

The Scottish ballad Gil Brenton, Child No. 5, disappeared from tradition by the late 1800s. Because of its length, it has not been revived and remains a "dead" ballad. The important texts not given by Child are: 1) "Lord Bengwill's Adventure" from Mary Macqueen (Mrs. William Storie) of Lochwinnoch; Crawfurd's MS published by Lyle, 1975; and 2) "Aye the Birks a-bowing, or, Lord Dingwall," an arrangement of Buchan's text by W. Christie, Traditional Ballad Airs, Volume 2, 1881.

Mortherwell's b version by Mary Macqueen (Crawfurd's MS) should be given a separate letter designation but I've used Child's letter designations for this ballad. Child's texts appear on the first page after this headnotes. The same texts with additional notes appear attached to this page and are listed in CONTENTS, below. Once again Child's excellent headnotes are filled with foreign analogues (see footnote 9 for a Danish analogue by Robert Jamieson) which may or may not be directly related to these Scottish ballads.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 08:08 PM

Hi,

I'm almost done with Child 6 and want to know if there's anything I should add or change to these simple notes (the versions and opening headnotes):

A. Willy's Lady, Mrs. Brown of Falkirk (Willie has taen him oer the fame,) 1783
   a. "Willy's Lady" Mrs. Brown of Falkirk, Fraser-Tytler Manuscript
   b1. "Sweet Willy," Mrs. Brown of Falkirk, Jamieson-Brown Manuscript, No 15, fol. 33.
   b2. "Willie's Ladye," Mrs. Brown of Falkirk, W. Scott based on Child Ab (Jamieson's MS) version, 1802
   b3. "Sweet Willy," Mrs. Brown of Falkirk, Jamieson, Popular Ballads and Songs (Appendix), 1806.
   c1. "Willy's Lady" recreation by Matthew Gregory Lewis in Tales of Wonder, 1801.
   c2. "Willy's Lady" an 1818 Dublin print issued in "Charms of Melody," a copy of Lewis, C1.
   d. "Sweet Willie of Liddesdale," recreation by Jamieson, 1806
   e1. "Sweet Willy" revival text of Child Aa by Ray Fisher of Scotland arranged in the early 1970s (recorded 1982) to the tune of the Breton "Son ar Chiste" (The Song of Cider, c. 1944).
   e2. "Sweet Willy" revival text of Child Ab by Martin Carthy, 1976, based on Ray Fisher's melody.

B. "Simon's Lady," fragment recited by Bell Robertson of New Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire, by Greig, 1906
   a. "Simon's Lady," recitation by Bell Robertson in "Last Leaves of Traditional Ballads" (Keith, 1925)
   b. "Simon's Lady," recitation by Bell Robertson "Greig Duncan Collection" by Pat Shuldham-Shaw and Emily B Lyle.

[This ballad, about a curse of an evil mother on her pregnant daughter-in-law that prevents her from giving birth, was popular in Denmark. Child gives extensive details of the foreign analogues in his headnotes. The British traditional record is two Scottish ballads, both dating back to the 1700s[]. The two MSS from Mrs. Brown (Child Aa and Ab), which date dating back to 1783, are slightly different. Mrs. Brown ballad was reworked by Matthew Gregory Lewis in "Tales of Wonder" (1801), in 1802 Sir Walter Scott published an "ancient copy, never before published" version titled "Willie's Ladye" which was Child Ab with some minor changes, then in 1806 Robert Jamieson published a copy of his MS (Jamieson-Brown MS of 1783) and a reworked recreation by his own hand. In 1966 Helen Flanders published a version form the 1818 Dublin issued "Charms of Melody," which she failed to identify as a version Matthew Gregory Lewis' "Tales of Wonder."

The significantly shorter traditional fragment from Bell Roberston was collected by Grieg about 1906. It appears in "Last Leaves of Traditional Ballads" (Greig-Keith, 1925) and also the "Greig-Duncan Collection" by Pat Shuldham-Shaw and Emily B Lyle (1981-2002). Keith suggests the source is Bell Robertson's grandmother, Isobel Stephen of Strichen which would date the ballad back to the 1700s. Although the text is a fragment, there is at least one improvement which was probably a mis-hearing by Mrs Brown that occurs in stanza 37 and again in stanza 42. The "master-kid" for "kid" or "goat" appears in Robertson's version as "ted" or "tead" for "toad." Since "the master kid" also "ran beneath that ladie's bed" it would seem to have been discovered and removed whereas a "toad" could have stayed under the bed unnoticed.

In the early 1970s the ballad was revived in the UK through an arrangement by Ray Fisher of Scotland that was popularized by a 1976 recording by Martin Carthy[]. Her arrangement wed the text of Child Aa to the Breton tune, "Son ar Chiste" (The Song of Cider).

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:04 PM

Yes,
The only really reliable source for this ballad is Mrs Brown and even that ballad is very likely at some point in the mid 18thc to have been translated from the Danish like many another.

Bell Robertson recites too many long ballads that follow Buchan's concoctions to be reliable.
She does provide one very useful piece of information when she states that Jamie Rankin (Buchan's fall guy, whom she knew) hadn't the wit to make up a ballad.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:45 PM

Yes, Richie, I always thought that a toad was much more likely to escape detection, and would be a better witch's familiar as well.

Steve, since Bell Robertson's fragment has the hero named differently and the more plausible toad detail, where do you think she might have got it from (if not her grandmother). If she was going to fabricate a witchcraft ballad, you'd have thought she'd have come up with more than three verses.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 May 18 - 03:38 AM

Hi Brian,
As you know I'm always highly suspicious of the verity of ballads with very few versions. I was talking generally about Bell Robertson's ballads. I'll certainly have a closer look at this one now you mention it. William Walker, latterly Buchan's apologist, seems to have been rather heavily involved in what Greig was doing.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:38 AM

Hi,

The curses in Robertson's version (three total) are different. The rough draft of my headnotes is here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british-and-other-versions-6-willies-lady.aspx

I'm finally starting on Child 7, and will be posting. Steve mentions William Walker who Carpenter collected a version from titled "Lord William's Lady." There are 106 Carpenter entries for Child 7-- most of them multiple entries for the same version.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 01 May 18 - 10:10 AM

Thanks for linking the Robertson version, Richie, there's quite a lot more of it than I'd remembered.

When I first stumbled on it, the fact that it was so clearly the same ballad as Mrs Brown's, yet so different in detail, struck me as a corroboration of 'Willie's Lady'. Steve may disagree.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 May 18 - 12:54 PM

Simplest thing in the world to take a ballad from a book and change a few details. It's been done many a time. Think of fakers who sent Scott stuff and then the people who took the stuff from Scott and added their own bits. And whereas oral tradition occasionally comes in to play there's a lot of literary/editorial interference going on. Yes most of Bell's version is straight copy from Mrs. Brown.

All of this of course is pure conjecture on both our parts and no doubt both of us have studied all of the versions of every ballad.

I've just sent you all of the Greig-Duncan versions, Richie.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 02:30 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/A, p. 11482, title in pencil, inconsistent dialect.

"Lord William and Lady Margaret" (The Douglas Tragedy)- sung by William Walker of South Nittans Head, Bonnykelly, New Pitsligo, learned about 1895 from George Taylor of Murryfold, Turriff.

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold,
Put on your armour so bright,
Ne'er let it be said that a sister of yours,
Should be married tae a lord e're night [or knight]."

2. He [Lord William] has mounted her on a milk-white steed,
An' himsel' on the dapple grey,
Wie a bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rode away.

3. They rode on, an' on they rode,
It was all by the light o' the moon,
They rode on tae yon clear running stream,
It was there they lighted doon.

4. It was there they lighted doon tae tak a drink,
o, the water it ran sae clear,
It was there that he saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father fighting severe.

5. "Come doon, come doon, Lady Margaret," he cried,
"An tak ye my steed in yer hand,
And I will fight your seven brothers bold
And your father I'll mak him tae stand."

6. Lady Margaret came doon frae her high horseback,
An' she never shed a tear,
Until he saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father fighting severe.

7. "Hold off, hold off," Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes are wondrous sair,
Sweethearts I'll get mony a ain,
But a father I'll never get mair."

8."Oh choose, oh choose, Lady Margaret," he cried
Whether to gang or tae bide."
"Oh i'll gang wie you, Lord William," she cried
Since you've left me no other guide."

9. He mounted her on his milk-white steed,
Himsel on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rode away.

10. They rode on, an' on they rode,
It was all by the light of the moon,
Until they came tae his mother ha' door,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

11. "Arise, arise, oh mother," he cried,
"Arise and let me in.
Arise, arise, oh mother," he cried,
For this night my fair lady I've won."

12. "Oh mother dear go mak my bed,
An' mak it broad an' deep,
An' lay Lady Margaret doon by my side,
And the sooner I may sleep."

13. Lord William he dead e're the middle o the nicht,
Lady Margaret she died next day,

14. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirk yard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's square,
And oot o' of Lady Margaret's grew a red, red rose,
And oot o' the Lord William's a sweet briar.

15. They grew and they grew tae the high steeple top,
Till they could grow no higher,
They formed themselves into a true lover's form,
All true lovers fond to admire.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 04:20 PM

Hi,

Title is written in pencil. From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/F, p. 08088. Inconsistent dialect, I've added missing 3rd line in stanza 13.

Lord William and Lady Margaret(The Douglas Tragedy)- sung by John Riddoch of Oyne, Aberdeenshire, c. 1930

1. "Rise up, rise up, Lord Douglas," she cried,
An' put on your armour so bright,
An' take better care of your youngest daughter,
For the eldest's away last night."

2. "Rise up, rise up, ye seven sons so bold,
Put on your armour so bright,
And tak' better care of your youngest sister,
For the eldest's away last night."

3. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
Twas then that he saw her seven brothers bold,
Come riding over the lea.

4. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
Himsel' on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hangin' doon by his side,
So slowly they baith rode away.

4. They rode on, an' father on,
It was all by the light o' the moon,
It they came to a clear winding stream,
It wis then they baith lichted doon fear.

5. "Light doon, light doon, Lady Margaret," he cried,
"An' tak my steed in yer hand,
Till I go an' fight wi' your seven brothers bold
An' your father I'll make for to stand."

6. She took his steed in her milk-white hand,
An she never shed one tear,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father fighting severe.

7. "Oh hold ye, oh hold ye," Lord William," she cried,
"Hold up e'er ye be dead,
"Tis naught, tis naught, Lady Margaret," he said
But the shining of my coat so red."

8. She's ta'en out her handkerchief,
Doon in yonder lowlands so fine,
And she has wiped his bloody wounds,
They were redder than the wine.

9. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
An himsel' on his dapple grey,
Wi' a bugle horn hangin' doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rode away.

10. They rode on, an' farther on,
Twas all by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to his mother's hall door,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

11. "Rise up, rise up, my mother dear,
"Rise up and let me in.
This night through stress and blood I fear,
My lady I have won."

12. "Oh mother dear, go make my bed," he cried,
Make it baith lang, soft an' deep,
An lay Lady Margaret along by my side,
That the sounder we may sleep."

13. Lord William died in the middle of the night,
Lady Margaret died on the morrow.
[Lord William died from his wounds],
Lady Margaret died of sorrow.

14. They buried then baith in St. Mary's church yard,
Right in the middle of the square,
Oot o' the lady's grave there grew a bonny rose,
While oot o' the knight's grew a briar.

15 They twa met an' they twa plot,
Growing in beauty together.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 06:31 PM

Hi,


From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/D, pp. 04654-04655, 1st stanza is missing.

Lord William and Lady Margaret (The Douglas Tragedy)- sung by Mary Thain of 27 Castle street, Banff, c. 1930

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold,
And stand to your armour so bright,
Ne'er let it be said that a sister of yours,
Shall be married to a lord or a knight."

2. He's mounted her on her milk-white steed,
An' himsel' on a dapple grey,
With the buglet horn hanging doon by his side,
It's so slowly they baith rade away.

3. He's looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
An there he spied her seven brethren bold,
Come riding over the lea.

4. "Lightet doon, lightet doon, Lady Margaret," he cries,
"An' ye'll take my steed in your hand,
Ere I go fight with your seven brethren bold
An' your father an aged man."

5. "Hold off, hold off, Lord William," she cries,
"Your strokes they're wondrous sore,
"Sweethearts I may hae monny a one,
But a father I'll ne'er hae more."

6. "Wilt thou choose, wilt thou choose, Lady Margaret," he cries,
"Wilt thou choose for to go or to bide."
"It's I will choose to go, Lord William," she says
"Since you've left me no other guide."

7. He's mounted her on his milk-white steed,
An himsel' on his dapple grey,
Wi' a buglet horn hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rade away.

8. They've ride on, an' farther on,
All by the light of the moon,
Til they came to a clear running stream,
Twas there where they baith lighted doon.

9. They lighted doon for to take a drink
All by the stream running clear,
Twas there that she sae her lover's heart bleed
Twas there she began to fear.

10. "Hold off, hold off, Lord William," she cried,
"I fear ye hae been slain,
"Oh no, it's the shadow of the red scarlet cloak,
A shinin' in the water so clear."

11. He's mounted her on his milk-white steed,
An himsel' on his dapple grey,
Wi' a buglet horn hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rade away.

12. They've ride on, an' farther on,
All by the light of the moon,
Until they came to his mother's bowers;
Says, "Arise an' lat me in."

13. "Rise up, rise up lady mother," he cried,
"Rise up an' lat me in,"
"Rise up, rise up lady mother," he cried,
"For this night my fair lady I hae win."

14. "Make my bed baith long and wide,
Make it baith wide an' deep,
An' lay Lady Margaret close at my back,
That the sounder I may sleep."

15. Lord William died ere the middle o' the night,
Lady Margaret died the next day.
. . . .
. . . .

16 They twa met an' they twa plott,
I'm sure they were twa lovers dear,
An a' ye lovers that wish to gang thegither,
I wish you more luck than they.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 08:12 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/C, p. 11595

Lord William and Lady Margaret,(The Douglas Tragedy)- sung by Peter Barnett Oyne, Aberdeenshire, c. 1890

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold,
And ye'll stand to your armour so bright,
It'll ne'er be said that a sister of yours,
Shall be wed to a lord or a knight."

2. "Come doon, come doon, Lady Margaret," he said,
"An' ye'll hold my steed in yer hand,
Till I go an' fight wi' your seven brothers bold
An' your father I'll make him to stand."

3. Lady Margaret stood in the stable door,
An' ne'er a word she spoke,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father fighting so bold.

4. "Hold off, hold off, Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes they are fu sair,
"Sweethearts I'll get plenty
But a father I'll never get mair."

5. ."Oh choose, oh choose, Lady Margaret," he said
Choose ye to go or to bide."
"Oh I maun go wi' you, love,"
Since ye've left me no other guide."

6. So he mounted her on a milk-white steed,
An himsel' on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hangin' doon by his side,
An' so slowly they both rode away.

7. They rode on, an' farther on,
Twas all by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to yon clear water,
Twas there that they both lighted doon.

8. They both lighted doon for to take a drink
Of the water that ran sae clear,
Twas there that she saew his heart's blood run down
An' twas then she began for to fear.

9. "Hold up, hold up, Lord William," she said,
"I'm afraid ye have been slain,"
"Oh no, it's but the shadow of the red scarlet cloak,
That goes trinklin' along the stream."

10. So he mounted her on his milk-white steed,
An himsel' on his dapple grey,
Wi' his silver horn hangin' doon by his side,
An' so slowly's they both rode away.

11. They rode on, an' farther on,
Twas all by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to his mother's gate,
Twas there that they both lighted doon.

12 "Oh rise, oh rise, my mother dear,
"Oh rise up and let me in.
"Oh rise, oh rise, my mother dear,
For this night my true love I've won."

13. "Ye'll make my bed, mother,
Ye'll make it soft an' fine,
An ye'll lay my true love doon by my side,
So fondly's we may sleep."

14. Lord William he died in the middle o' the night,
Lady Margaret died on the morrow.
Lord William died for his own true love,
Lady Margaret for perfect sorrow.

15. The one was buried in St. Peter's kirk yard,
The other in st. Mary's hall,
An' oot o' the one grew a red rose sae fine,
An' oot o' the other grew a sweet briar.

16 They grew and grew till they reached the top,
Til they could grow no higher,
And they twined themselves in a true lover's knot
For all true lovers to admire.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:03 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/F, p. 08085, very spare Scot dialect.

Lord William and Lady Margaret, (Douglas Tragedy) sung by David Edwards, 84 High St., Cuminestown, Scotland in the Formartine area of Aberdeenshire, approximately six miles east of Turriff. Learned in Cornhill 50 to 60 years ago.

1. "Stand up, stand up, my seven sons so bold
And up to your armour so bright,
Let it never be said that a sister of yours,
Was wed to a lord or a knight."

2. "Come doon, come doon, Lady Margaret," he said,
"Come hold my steed for me,
Till I go and fight your seven brothers bold
And your father so boldly to see [stand]."

3. She held it in her milk-white hand,
Without ever shedding a tear,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father fighting so dear.

4. "Hold off, hold off, Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes are wondrous sair,
"Sweethearts I will get many a one,
But a father I'll never get no more."

5. "O choose, o choose, Lady Margaret," he cries
Either to come or to bide."
"Oh I maun gang with you,
Since you've left me no other guide."

6. So he mounted her on his milk-white steed,
An himself on the dapple grey,
With his bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
And so slowly they both rode away.

7. They rode on, and farther on,
It was all by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to yon clear water,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

8. They lighted doon to take a drink
Of the water that passed then so near,
It was there she saw his life's blood
Flow from his body so fair.

9. "I fear, I fear, you've got a wound,
"I fear you're slain," she cries.
"It's only shadow of my red scarlet cloak,
That is shining in your eyes."

10. He mounted her on his milk-white steed,
Himself on a dapple grey,
With his bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
And so slowly they both rode away.

11. They rode on, and farther on,
It was all by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to yon castle tower,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

12 "Awake, awake, my mother," he cried
"And make my bed for me,
"For I have brought my true love here,
This night to lie with me."

13. Lord William he died in the middle of the night,
Lady Margaret died on the morrow.
Lord William died for his true love's sake,
Lady Margaret died of sorrow.

14. And so these two in this grave were laid,
They were both laid side by side,
Out of Lord William's grave there grew a red rose,
And out of Lady Margaret's a sweet briar.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:42 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/155, Disc Side 149, 01:56, missing some stanzas. Her name changes to Marget, a common shortened variant. The last line has "brattle"? or it could be "brattlin' briar"?

Prince William- sung by Mrs Mary Stewart Robertson, of 6 Auchreddie Road, New Deer, learned from grandmother Mrs. Mary MacPhe Stewart, 50 years ago, her grandmother was about 80 when she died. Collected in 1932.

1. He lichted Lady Margaret on a white-milk steed,
An himsel' on a dapple an' a grey,
His sword and his buckle [bugle] hung by his side,
And so slowly he rode away.

2. She stood and she stood,
An' she far better stood,
Till she sa' her seven brothers fa',
An' her father who stood close by.

3. "O haud your hand, Prince William," she said,
"Your blows are so wondrous sore,
"For sweethearts sweethearts I may get plenty,
But a father I'll never get no more."

4. "Take it in your choice, Lady Margaret," he said
Either to go or to bide."
"I maun go with you, Prince William
For you've left me nae to be my guide."

5. He lichted Lady Margaret on a white-milk steed,
An himsel' on a dapple an' a grey,
An' the sword an' buckle [bugle] it hung by his side,
An' he's come bleedin' away.

6. They rode an they rode, and they far better rode,
Till they came to a bonny spring waal [well],
"Ye'll haud my steed Lady Marget," he said
Till I tak a drink o the spring."

7. "Oh rise, oh rise, Prince William," she says,
"Oh rise, oh rise," said she,
For I think I see your very heart's blood
A-running doon this spring."

8. O they rode an' they rode, and they far better rode,
Till they came tae his father's gate,
"Oh open your gates, baith broad an' wide,
Open yer gates tae me,
For I think I've gained as fair lady
As stands in this country today.

9. Prince William died in the middle o' the night,
Lady Marget by the break o' day,
An' there grows a red rose at Lady Marget's head
An' at Prince William's a brattle an' a briar.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 10:56 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/E, p. 08083, missing the opening.

Lord William and Lady Margaret- as sung by Mrs William Duncan of Tories, Oyne, by Turriff, Aberdeenshire, Scotland.

1. Stand up stand up, ye seven sons so bold
And ye'll stand to your armour so bright,
It'll ne'er be said that a sister of yours,
Shall be wed to a lord or a knight."

2. Lord William looked over his broad shoulder,
To see what he could see,
And there he saw her seven brothers bold,
Come riding over the lea.

3. "Come down, come down, Lady Margaret," he cries,
"Take my steed in yer hand,
Till I go an' fight with your seven brothers bold
An' yer father I'll make stand."

4. She's taen his steed in her milk-white hand,
An' she never shed one tear,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father stood fighting sae near.

5. "Hold off your hand, Lord William," she said,
"For your strokes they are wondrous sore,
"Sweethearts I may get a many a one,
But a father I'll never get more."

6. "Choose, oh choose, Lady Margaret," he said
Either to go or to bide."
"Oh I maun gang along wi' thee,
Since ye've left me no other guide."

7. He mounted her on a milk-white steed,
Himsel' on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rode away.

8. They rode on, an' farther on,
Twas all by the light of the the moon,
Until that they came to yonder clear stream,
An' twas there that they both lighted doon.

9. They both lighted down to tak a drink,
Of the water that run sae clear,
An' down the stream ran his heart's blood,
Oh sair, sair did she fear.

10. "Hold up your head, Lord William," she said,
For I doubt not but ye're slain,
"Oh no, it's the shadow of my scarlet coat,
That shines in the water sae clear.

11. They rode on, an' farther on,
Twas all by the light of the moon,
Until that they came to his father's ha' door,
An' there they baith lighted doon.

12. "Oh mother dear, ye'll make my bed,
Ye'll mak it soft an' fine,
An ye'll lay my lady doon by my side,
That I may sleep full soon."

13. Lord William he died in the middle o' the night,
Lady Margaret she died on the morrow.
Lord William he died for his ain true love,
Lady Margaret she died for sorrow.

15. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirkyard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's choir,
An' from Lord William's there grew a red rose,
An' from Lady Margaret's a sweet briar.

16 They grew an' grew an' on they grew,
Till they reached one another sae near,
Twas to let them know all that passed by,
That there lies twa lovers sae dear.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 11:36 PM

Hi,

Predictably the best version so far is Bell Duncan's which is the model. From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/E, p. 08083 and James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/E, p. 08078.

Lord William and Lady Margaret - as sung by Miss Bell Duncan of Insch, Scotland.

1. "Rise up, rise up, my seven sons so bold
And put on your armour sae bright,
Ye'll tak far better care o' yer youngest sister,
For yer eldest sister's awa' last night.

2. Stand up stand up, my seven sons so bold
And stand tae your armour sae bright,
Let it ne'er be said that a sister o' yours,
Should get wed tae a lord or a knight."

3. He mounted her on a milk-white steed,
An' himsel' on a dapple grey,
Wi' the bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
An' sae lightly they baith rode awa'.

4. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see fat he could spy,
Twas there he saw her seven brothers bold,
An' her father wis drawing nigh.

5. "Light doon, light doon, Lady Margaret," he says,
"Ye'll hold my steed in yer hand,
Till I go an' fight wi' your seven brothers bold
An' yer father, I'll make him to stand."

6. She held his horse in her milk-white hand,
An' she never shed a tear,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father was floating sae near.

7. "Hold off your hand, Lord William," she said,
"For your strokes they are wondrous sair,
"Sweethearts I may get a monny a one,
But a father I will never get mair."

8. "O choose, ye choose, Lady Margaret," he says,
Either to gang or to bide."
"O I maun gang along wi' you,
For ye've left me nae other guide."

9. He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
A' himsel' on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hangin' doon by his side,
An' sae slowly's they baith rode away.

10. An' they rode on, an' farther on,
An' twas a' by the licht o' the moon,
Until they cam till yon water wan,
An' twas there that they baith lighted doon.

11. Twas there that they both lighted down for to drink,
The water that ran by sae clear,
Twas there she first saw his life's blood wis spilt,
Twas there she began to fear.

12. "Hold up your head, Lord William," she said,
"I've nae doot bit ye're slain,"
"Oh no, it's but the shadow of my reid scarlet coat,
That gaes trinklin' doon the stream."

13. They rode on, an' farther on,
An' twas a' by the light o' the moon,
Until that they cam tae his mother's ha' door,
An' twas there that they baith lighted doon.

15. "Oh mother dear, ye'll mak my bed,
Ye'll mak it wide and lang,
An ye'll lay my lady upon my richt side,
That we may sleep fu' soon."

16. His mother then she made his bed,
She made it wide and lang,
An she laid his lady upon his richt side,
That they micht sleep fu' soon."

17. An' Lord William he died in the middle o' the nicht,
An' Lady Margaret she died on the morrow.
Lord William was slain for his ain true love,
Lady Margaret she died for sorrow.

18. Lord William was buried in Lady Mary's kirkyard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's choir,
An' oot o Lord William's there sprung a reid rose,
An' fae Lady Margaret's a briar.

19 An' they grew an' grew, an' they far better grew,
Till they reached ane an ither sae near,
Till ilka one that did them see,
Says, "Here lies twa lovers dear."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 02 May 18 - 12:46 PM

Hi,

So far all the Carpenter versions are of the Lord Douglas variety and are usually titled "Lord William and Lady Margaret." They correspond to Child I and various broadside/chapbook prints titled: "Lord Douglas' Tragedy." I've listed three publications below; the earliest is 1792. Note "Blue gilded horn" for "bulge horn" in stanza 9.

Lord Douglas Tragedy: And The Shepherd's Daughter, Also, The New Way of Taliho. Published 1799.

(Chapbook) The Gosport tragedy. Lord Douglas' tragedy. My grandfather's farm. Edinburgh c. 1800.

Lord Douglas' Tragedy. To which are added, The shepherd's courtship. The blythsome bridal or the lass wi' the gouden hair. The farewell. Newcastle upon Tyne, published 1792.

          Lord Douglas' Tragedy

1    'Rise up, rise up, Lord Douglas,' she said,
'And draw to your arms so bright;
Let it never be said a daughter of yours
Shall go with a lord or a knight.

2    'Rise up, rise up, my seven bold sons,
And draw to your armour so bright;
Let it never be said a sister of yours
Shall go with a lord or a night.'

3    He looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
And there he spy'd her seven brethren bold,
And her father that lov'd her tenderly.

4    'Light down, light down, Lady Margret,' he said,
'And hold my steed in thy hand.
That I may go fight with your seven brethren bold,
And your father who's just at hand.'

5    O there she stood, and bitter she stood,
And never did shed a tear,
Till once she saw her seven brethren slain,
And her father she lovd so dear.

6    'Hold, hold your hand, William,' she said,
'For thy strokes are wondrous sore;
For sweethearts I may get many a one,
But a father I neer will get more.'

7    She took out a handkerchief of holland so fine
And wip'd her father's bloody wound,
Which ran more clear than the red wine,
And forked on the cold ground.

8    'O chuse you, chuse you, Margret,' he said,
'Whether you will go or bide!'
'I must go with you, Lord William,' she said,
'Since you've left me no other guide.'

9    He lifted her on a milk-white steed,
And himself on a dapple grey,
With a blue gilded horn hanging by his side,
And they slowly both rode away.

10    Away they rode, and better they rode,
Till they came to yonder sand,
Till once they came to yon river side,
And ther they lighted down.

11    They lighted down to take a drink
Of the spring that ran so clear,
And there she spy'd his bonny heart's blood,
A running down the stream.

12    'Hold up, hold up, Lord William,' she says,
'For I fear that you are slain;'
'Tis nought but the shade of my scarlet clothes,
That is sparkling down the stream.'

13    He lifted her on a milk-white steed,
And himself on a dapple grey,
With a blue gilded horn hanging by his side,
And slowly they rode away.

14    Ay they rode, and better they rode,
Till they came to his mother's bower;
Till once they came to his mother's bower,
And down they lighted there.

15    'O mother, mother, make my bed,
And make it saft and fine,
And lay my lady close at my back,
That I may sleep most sound.'

16    Lord William he died eer middle o the night,
Lady Margret long before the morrow;
Lord William he died for pure true love,
And Lady Margret died for sorrow.

17    Lord William was bury'd in Lady Mary's kirk,
The other in Saint Mary's quire;
Out of William's grave sprang a red rose,
And out of Margret's a briar.

18    And ay they grew, and ay they threw,
As they wad fain been near;
And by this you may ken right well
They were twa lovers dear.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 May 18 - 05:41 PM

Richie, FWIW, all the print copies I've seen are the same 18 sts you have here but in the first line they all have 'says' for 'said'.

I'm presuming that what you have just posted is the 1792 version. In that case the 1792 version I have seen seemingly has 'says' unless I've copied wrongly.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 02 May 18 - 11:34 PM

I realise we're supposed to have moved on now, but I've not done with #6 yet.

Steve G wrote: "Most of Bell's version is straight copy from Mrs. Brown."

But it isn't - not remotely. The bloke's name is different, every one of the spells is different, the phraseology is different, the Billy Blin now sits at the bed foot, etc, etc, etc. And then there's the fact that the supposed 'rewrite' only bothers to tell a fragment of the tale. To me it looks far more like a vestigial survival of a parallel ballad to Mrs Brown's. Oh, and there's the source's own testimony - or should this be disbelieved as a matter of course?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 09:07 AM

Hi Steve,

The text I sent you was Child I, taken from an unidentified print in Child's possession which has "said" in opening line. I agree with you that "Earl Brand" is a different ballad about a similar affair with a similar ending (both are wounded, and go home and then die). Earl Brand has a refrain while Lord Douglas does not. The only stanza held strictly in common is the:

"O Earl Brand, I see thy heart’s bluid,"
"It’s but the shadow of my scarlet robe."

Similar themes are found in Bold Soldier (Bold Keeper), Braes o' Yarrow, and Erlington,

Brian, I agree with you on Child 6. I've added the changes from Lyle transcript (Bell Roberton's version) on my site now.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 09:32 AM

Hi,

I came across this in "Select Views of the Royal Palaces of Scotland,"
by John Jamieson 1830:

In a M.S. in the possession of Lord Traquair, dated 1711— from which the circumstances above mentioned are extracted— this is called 'Lord William and Fair Margaret' but like most of our popular ballads it has borne different names. It is published, in the Minstrelsy of the Border, vol. iii. 243, &c., under the title of “The Douglas Tragedy.' This place is merely mentioned by, Chalmers as “Blackhouse tower, on Douglas burn.”

It seems says that Lord Douglas was publish from a 1711 MS in possession of Lord Traquair. I'm not sure if he's talking about a ballad, or just the details of the event. I haven't seen evidence that his statement has been rebutted or amplified. Anyone?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Lighter
Date: 03 May 18 - 01:41 PM

I've borrowed through Interlibrary Loan a little (and little-known) booklet by Fred High of High, Arkansas, called "Old, Old Folk Songs." He published it himself around 1947. It contains just the words of 73 songs of all kinds known to High and his family - most of them obscure and highly sentimental: "one song for each of my years here on earth."

"Old, Old Folk Songs" is notable as the only printed document of any length that I've ever seen that has undergone no proofreading whatsoever. In terms of spelling, punctuation, spacing, etc., what follows is 100% typical of High's 53-page booklet.

From p. 10:

                      WILLIE CAME OVER THE OCEAN

Willie came over the main wide Ocean
And Willie came over the Sea
And Willie come to my fathers household come
Come a corting home with me, me, me
He followed me up he folled me down he folled
me far and near, i had not time to tell him
To stay or go no time to tell him to stay or go estate
Go get 1/2 of your fathers and part of yours
Mothers fee and 2 of your fathers best horses and
Married we will B. B. B. & married we will B
She got 1/2 of her fathers estate and part of her
Mothers fee . . & marched rightn to the barn-doore
Tuck choice among 30 & 3 for there was 30 & eight
She mounted on the snow-white beast & Willie the
Dapple gray . . & they rode till they come to the
Salty-water sea at the lingth of a long of a
Summer day-day-day
Go light you down my pretty Polly go light
U down said he for six kind daughters Ive drounded
Here and the seventh you will be-be-be
Go pull-off that silkin dress that is made of
Silk so fine for it is to fine & costly to lye
And rot in the Sea-sea-sea
Go turn your Face all around & turn you back
On me . . . And think what ashame & a scandal it
Would B for A-necked woman ti see-see-see
He turned him self all around & about & turned
His banc on to me . . . I grabed him around the
Slim long wast & tosed him in to the deep blue sea
Reach down reach down your hands for me . .
Fir six kind daughters ive dronded here the
Seventh U wont Be-be-be & the seventh U wont B
Lye there th lye there youl cruel hearted fellow
Lye there in the place of me . . . for six kind
Daughters uve drownded here & the seventh U will B
She mounted on the snow white beast & leading
The dapple-gray until she come to her
Fathers house two long hours before it was day
Where have you ben my pretty Polye where have U
Ben says he . . . Ive ben with the richest man in
The state & drowned him in the sea-sea-.sea

                                       Sister Succie Brisco

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:09 PM

Hi,

James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/G, pp. 06744-06745

The Douglas Tragedy - as sung by William Angus of Cuminston, Aberdeenshire. Learned from Mr. Stephens (Sandy Stephen's brother)

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold
And ye'll tae yer armour sae bright,
Never have it said yer young sister dear,
Should get wed tae a lord or a knight."

2. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
Tae see fa [what] he could spye,
An' fa [what] did he see but her seven brothers bold,
Coming riding over the hill.

3. "Stand up, stand up, Lady Margaret," he cried,
"An' haud my steed in yer han',
Till I go an' ficht wi' your seven brothers bold
An' yer father, I'll mak for tee stand."

4. She's ta'en the steed enti her hand,
She held him baith firm and fast,
Until she sa' her seven brothers fall,
An' her father was fightin' so dear.

5. "Hold aff, hold aff, Lord William," she cried,
"For your strokes they are wondrous sair,
"Of sweethearts I shall hae mony more than een,
But a father I'll never get mair."

6. "Choose ye, ye choose, Lady Margaret," he said,
Since you are to go or bide."
"It's I maun follow after you,
Since ye've left me nae other guide."

7. They rode on, an' far farther on,
It was all by the licht o' the moon,
Until they cam tae waters clear,
It was there that they baith lichted doon.

8. They lichted down tae take a drink,
O' the water that ran by sae clear,
It was there she spied her true lover's hert's blood,
It was then she began for tae fear.

9. "Stand up, stand up, Lord William," she said,
"I'm afraid you have been slain,"
"Oh no, oh no Lady Margaret," he said,
"It's but the colour of my reed-scarlet coat,
You see in the water's clear."

10. He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
Himself on his dapple grey,
With a siller bugle hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rode away.

11. They rode on an' far, farther on,
It was all by the light o' the moon,
Until that they cam tae his mother's high door,
It was there they baith lighted doon.

12. "Arise, arise, dear mother," he said
"Arise, an' lat me in,
"Arise, arise, dear mother," he said,
"For this nicht my true love I've won."

13. "Ye'll mak my bed baith long an' broad
An' ye'll mak it baith soft an' deep,
An' lay my true love doon by my side,
That the sooner I might sleep."

14. His mother then she made his bed,
She made it wide and lang,
An she laid his lady upon his richt side,
That they micht sleep fu' soon."

15. Lord William he died in the middle o' the nicht,
An' Lady Margaret she died on the morrow.
Lord William he died for the sake o his true love,
Lady Margaret she died for sorrow.

16. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirkyard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's square,
An' on Lord William's there sprung a reid rose,
An' Lady Margaret's a bonnie briar.

17. They grew an' they grew, an' the nearer they grew,
Till they reached ane another fu' near,
Till [To] let people ken as they passed by,
That they had been lovers fu' dear."

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:31 PM

Richie,
29 April 8.08 you have Robinson for Robertson.

Jon,
Interesting version easily standardised. Shall you do it or one of us, just for clarity?

Brian,
I did say 'most of' and, for me at least, in nearly a century since the ballad was published there is plenty of time for oral tradition or literary interference (needs looking at closely) or both to have intervened. The kid/toad change could easily have been someone in the chain trying to make it look more plausible. Who knows?

As to Bell's fragmentary version. I don't really see how it being a fragment tells us anything. I'm aware that Child often was suspicious of 'complete' ballads as being edited/collated, but for me at least just because something is a fragment doesn't make it any more genuine.

Regarding Bell's own statements, we have plenty of examples when source singers have been mistaken or made false statements. There are all sorts of possibilities and mine is just an opinion.

If you want to go through the similarities and difference piece by piece I need to know whether you're using Child or Lyle. The stanza numbering is different.

Generally speaking, having looked at Bell's longer recitations, some of them are very close to Peter Buchan's concoctions. But there are all sorts of ways they could be derived from Buchan.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:57 PM

Richie,
You have 'Robinson' on the website as well.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 04:34 PM

Hi,

Thanks for correction Steve.

Lighter: I have a copy of that Fred High pamphlet (book :) To hear him sing it: http://digitalcollections.uark.edu/cdm/ref/collection/OzarkFolkSong/id/1393/

The title is an Ozark title first collected as "Willie Came over the Ocean" by Miss Hamilton, 1909, from Julia Rickman, one of her pupils in West Plains High School (see: Belden, Ballads and Songs, 1940 version B). That's Child 4, of course.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Lighter
Date: 03 May 18 - 05:56 PM

The "Encyclopedia of Arkansas" gives High's dates as "1878 - 1962."

That means his little collection was published in 1951 or '52.

Steve, be my guest.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 10:18 PM

Thanks Lighter,

I have c. 1951 for that date. I don't know what's worst my spelling or my typing-- it's definitely my typing cause my fingers can't keep up. "And here's to you Mrs Robinson-- Jesus loves you more than you will know, wo, wo wo"

Most of the Carpenter versions are long-- I'm still finding small errors in them.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 10:38 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/G, pp. 06748-06749. Very few Scot word but there are some, inconsistent dialect.

The Douglas Tragedy - as sung by Alexander Campbell of Ythan Wells, Aberdeenshire about 1930.

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold
Stand up to your armour so bright,
Let it never be said that a sister o' yours,
Was married to a lord or knight."

2. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could spy,
And there he spied her seven brothers bold,
And her father drawing nigh.

3. "Come doon, come doon, Lady Margaret," he cried,
"Hold my steed in your milk-white hand,
Till I turn back your seven brothers bold
And make your father to stand."

4. She held his steed by the bridal rein,
Without shedding a tear,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An' her father still fighting severe.

5. "Hold off, hold off, Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes they are wondrous sair,
"Sweethearts I will get many a one,
But a father I'll never get mair."

6. "Choose, then choose, Lady Margaret," he said,
It's either to go or to bide."
"O I maun gang wi' you, Lord William
Since ye've left me nae other guide."

7. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
And himself on a dapple grey,
His sword and his bugle hinging doon by his side,
And so slowly they both rode away.

8. They rode on, and still further on,
It was all by the light of the moon,
Until that they came to yon clear running stream,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

9. Twas there that they lichted doon for to drink,
O' the water so cool and so clear,
Twas there that she spied the reid drops o blood,
Fell into the water so clear.

10. "I'm afraid, I'm afraid, Lord William," she said,
"I'm afraid that you've been slain,"
"It's nothing but my scarlet coat,
That shines in the river so plain."

11. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
Himsel on the dapple grey,
With a sword and a bugle hanging doon by his side,
And so slowly both rode away.

12. They rode on and still further on,
It was all by the light o' the moon,
Until that they came to his mother's ha' door,
It was there they lighted doon.

13. "Get up, get up, lady mother," he said
"Get up and let me in,
"Get up, get up, lady mother," he said
"For this nicht my fair lady I've won."

14. "O mak me my bed lady mother,
O mak it braid and deep,
An' lay my Lady Margaret at my back,
And the sounder we may sleep."

15. Lord William he died in the middle o' the nicht,
Lady Margaret she died on the morrow.
Lord William died for his true love's sake,
Lady Margaret died for sorrow.

16. Lord William was buried in the green church yard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's choir,
Out o Lord William there grew a reid rose,
And out o Lady Margaret a briar.

17. They grew and they grew, and still further grew,
Till they reached one another there,
And now they are twined in a true lover's knot,
For all true lovers to admire."
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:33 PM

Thanks, Jon

I have taken the liberty of rationalising a few parts to improve the sense and scansion, but I've tried to keep it to a minimum. Like some of the NC versions Richie has posted it follows the 'Lord Lovel' burlesque pattern so each stanza needs the triple on the last word and repeat of last line as in st 1. Most of the NC versions seem to only double the last word but the effect is similar.

I'll type it up in Word first as I don't want to risk losing it and having to redo it.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:57 PM

Willie came over the main wide ocean
And Willie came over the sea,
And Willie came to my father’s household,
Came a courting with me, me, me,
Came a courting with me.

He followed me up, he followed me down,
He followed me far and near;
I had no time to tell him to go,
No time to tell him to stay, etc.

“Go get half of your father’s estate (gold?)
And part of your mother’s fee,
And two of your father’s best horses,
And married we will be.”

She got half of her father’s estate
And part of her mother’s fee
And marched right up to the barn door,
Took choice of thirty and three.

She mounted on a snow-white beast
And Willie the dapple grey,
And they rode till they came to the salt-water sea
At the length of a long summer day.

“Go light you down, my pretty Polly,
Go light you down,” said he
For six kind daughters I’ve drownded here, (king’s)
And the seventh you will be.

Go pull off that silken dress,” he said,
“That is made of silk so fine,
For it is too fine and costly a thing
To lie and rot in the sea.”

“Go turn your face around,” I said,
“And turn your back on me.
Think what shame and scandal would be
A naked woman to see.”

He turned himself all round and about
And turned his back on me.
I grabbed him around the long, slim waist
And tossed him into the sea.

“Reach down, reach down your hands for me,
Reach down your hands,” cried he.
“For six kind daughters I’ve drownded here,
But the seventh you won’t be.”

“Lie there, lie there, you cruel-hearted fellow,
Lie there in place of me,
For six kind daughters you’ve drownded here
And the seventh I won’t be.”

She mounted on the snow-white beast
And leading the dapple grey,
She came back to her father’s house
Two long hours before it was day.

“Where have you been, my pretty Polly,
Where have you been?” said he.
“I’ve been with the richest man in the state
And drownded him in the sea.”

I quite like this version, no silly parrot and tells the story succinctly.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 18 - 08:14 AM

Hi,

I've organized the early ballads of Child 7 and roughed in some of the headnotes. Clearly there are two ballad types Earl Brand and Lord Douglas, whether they should be separated further is a matter of opinion. If there are any early British versions missing let me know.

* * * *

A. "The Child(Knight) of Ell" ("Sayes 'Christ thee saue, good Child of Ell!") fragment from Percy folio MS acquired c. 1753 (Northumberland) but older.
    a. "The Child of Ell" from "Bishop Percy's Folio Manuscript: Ballads and Romances," Volume 1 by Hales and Furnivall, I, p. 133, 1867. Original MS with notes.
    b. "The Child of Elle" recreation by Percy, "Reliques of Ancient English Poetry," 1765.

B. Earl Brand ("Did ye ever hear o guid Earl o Bran") dated late 1700s (Heber/Leyden c. 1802, Edinburgh)
    a. "Earl o Bran" William Leyden about 1802 probably Edinburgh (MS 22b. in the Abbotsford Collection) Written down by Richard Heber, chorus is missing, Kittredge's A* version, 1.
    b. "Earl Bran," collected by William Laidlaw (b. 1780) of Selkirkshire (farm of Blackhouse) about 1802 for W. Scott from "Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No 22d.
    c1. 'Earl Bran,' Mr. Robert White's papers, c.1818.
    c2. 'Earl Bran,' Mr. Robert White's papers.
    c3. 'The Brave Earl Brand and the King of England's Daughter,' Bell, Ancient Poems, etc., p. 122, 1846.
    c4. Fragmentary verses remembered by Mr. R. White's sister, Mrs. Andrews, of Claremont Place, Newcastle. Published with melody in The Monthly Chronicle of North Country Lore and Legend, Volume 5, see also Stokoe, Northumbrian Minstrelsy, 1882.
    d. "Gude Earl Brand and Auld Carle Hude," the Paisley Magazine, 1828, p. 321, communicated by W. Motherwell.
    e. "Auld Carle Hood, or, Earl Brand." From Hume-Campbell MSS titled “Old Scottish Songs, Collected in the Counties of Berwick, Roxburgh, Selkirk & Peebles." Collected by Sir Hugh Hume-Campbell's father and placed in his library about 1830.

C. The Douglas Tragedy (Lord William and Lady Margaret) ("'Rise up, rise up, now, Lord Douglas,' she says,") late 1700s (chapbook print 1792) titled from Sharpe's 1802 version by Sir Walter Scott- said to have originated in Selkirkshire at the farm of Blackhouse.
    a1. "Lord Douglas' Tragedy, To which are added, the shepherd's courtship the blythsome bridal; or the lass wi' the gouden hair. The farewell." Publisher: [Newcastle upon Tyne?]: Licensed and entered, 1792. Child I
    a2. "Three songs." Innocent mirth. Lord Douglas' [sic] tragedy The banks of Doon; [Edinburgh]: J. Morren, printer, Edinburgh, [1800]
    b. "The Douglas Tragedy," collected from nursery maid by C.K. Sharpe in 1802. Published in Scott's Minstrelsy, III, 246, ed. 1803. Child B
    c. "Earl Douglas," from the recitation of Mrs Notman of Renfrewshire(?) about 1826. From Motherwell's MS., p. 502; Child C.
    d. "Lady Margaret." unknown informant probably from Edinburgh area, from Kinloch MSS, I, 327, c. 1827.
    e. "The Douglas Tragedy," six stanzas from tradition in Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 180, 1827.
    f. "Lord Thomas and Ladie Margaret." Sung by Rachel Rodgers of Wallace Street, Ayr, c.1827. Collected by Thomas MacQueen. From "Andrew Crawfurd's collection of ballads and songs" by Andrew Crawfurd, E.B. Lyle - 1975.
    g. "Rise Ye Up," sung by Mrs. Lee Stephens (White Rock, Missouri) Oct. 5, 1928 dating back through her family to circa 1828. From Ozark Folksongs, Randolph- Volume I Ballads, from the section British Ballads and Songs.
    h. "Lady Margaret," Written By William A Larkins on April the 25th, 1868. From: The Old Album of William A. Larkin by Ruth Ann Musick; The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 60, No. 237 (Jul. - Sep., 1947), pp. 201-251.

* * * *

[The ballads of Child 7 are about the an "earl" or a "lord or knight" and a "maid" whose family tries to prevent their elopement with tragic consequences. As the two lovers ride away on horses, they are pursued by the maid's father and seven brothers (Lord Douglas) or by her father and fifteen men (Earl Brand). After they stop and she dismounts holding his horse, a heroic battle ensues as her vastly outnumbered lover slays the pursuers. However, her lover is mortally wounded (in Child A he's stabbed in the back by Carl Hood; in B, he's received an unidentified blow during battle). The lovers ride off to a stream where she discovers his fatal wound when she sees blood in the clear water. They ride to his mother's house where he dies and she dies shortly thereafter of sorrow. Child B has the "rose-briar" ending.

The earliest fragment is my A (Child's F), "The Child of Ell" which is part of the Percy Folio, a group of Northumbrian manuscripts acquired by Bishop Percy about 1753. The MS, published by Hales and Furnivall in 1867, was missing the next page so all that remains are the first 11 stanzas (some partial stanzas) of this early related version. Here's the text from Percy's MS., p. 57; ed. Hales and Furnivall, I, p. 133, 1867:

The Child of Ell (c.1753 but older)

1 . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . .
Sayes 'Christ thee saue, good Child of Ell!
Christ saue thee and thy steede!

2 'My father sayes he will [eat] noe meate,
Nor his drinke shall doe him noe good.
Till he haue slaine the Child of Ell,
And haue seene his harts blood.'

3 'I wold I were in my sadle sett,
And a mile out of the towne;
I did not care for your father
And all his merry men!

4 'I wold I were in my sadle sett,
And a little space him froe;
I did not care for your father
And all that long him to!

5 He leaned ore his saddle bow
To kisse this lady good;
The teares that went them two betweene
Were blend water and blood.

6 He sett himselfe on one good steed,
This lady on a palfray,
And sett his litle horne to his month,
And roundlie he rode away.

7 He had not ridden past a mile,
A mile out of the towne,
. . . . .
. . . . .

8 Her father was readye with her seuen brether,
He said, 'Sett thou my daughter downe!
For ill beseemes thee, thou false churles sonne,
To carry her forth of this towne!'

9 'But lowd thou lyest, Sir Iohn the knight,
Thou now doest lye of me;
A knight me gott, and a lady me bore;
Soe neuer did none by thee.

10 'But light now done, my lady gay,
Light downe and hold my horsse,
Whilest I and your father and your brether
Doe play vs at this crosse.

11 'But light now downe, my owne trew loue,
And meeklye hold my steede,
Whilest your father [and your seuen brether] bold
. . . . .

In 1765 Percy published his recreation of the ballad "The Child of Elle" in his Reliques where he commented[]: "The Child of Elle is given from a fragment in the Editor's folio MS: which tho- extremely defective and mutilated, appeared to show so much merit, that it excited a strong desire to attempt a completion of the story. The Reader will easily discover the supplemental stanzas by their inferiority, and at the same time be inclined to pardon it, when he considers how difficult it must be to imitate the affecting simplicity and artless beauties of the original."

Percy's 50-stanza recreation is given in full on a page attached to this page, British Versions (see "Child of Ell" right-hand column). Foreign analogues of a similar archaic age and theme were listed by Child who included the two important parallel Scandinavian ballads, "Ribold and Guldborg," (mid 1600s) and "Hildebrand and Hilde." Child's excellent, detailed notes on the foreign analogues were aided by previous studies by Child's mentor, Sven Grundvig[3].

Child gives us two main ballad types A, "Earl Brand" and B, "Lord Douglas" (also "Douglas Tragedy," or, "Lord William and Lady Margaret") which are the two modern[1] ballads that are grouped under his No. 7 titled "Earl Brand." The problem is: they are different tragic ballads with similar themes and one stanza held in common. In Sir Walter Scott's excellent notes on the Douglas tragedy in his Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, Volume 3(1803), He calls the "Earl Brand" an "analogous recitation[4]" and gives the stanza held in common:

"Gude Earl Brand I see blood"
"It's but the shade o' my scarlet robe."

Scott was aware of both Earl Brand ballad versions[5] that his friends William Laidlaw and John Leyden (via Richard Hebner) had acquired independently in preparation for Scott's "Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border" series (three volumes 1802-1803, one volume 1807). For some reason Child failed to acknowledge Scott's notes in volume 3 of his Minstrelsy in Child's Volume I (1882) of his English and Scottish Popular Ballads, so Child attributed the first extant version of Earl Brand to Robert Bell (1857) when clearly Scott knew the ballad by 1803. Child began his headnotes with, " 'Earl Brand,' first given to the world by Mr. Robert Bell in 1857, has preserved most of the incidents of a very ancient story with a faithfulness unequalled by any ballad that has been recovered from English oral tradition." In fairness to Child, Scott did not quote the whole text of Earl Brand, he only gave the stanza held in common. Later in volume 2 of ESPB's "Additions and Corrections," Child retracts the attribution to Bell and says: "This ballad was, therefore, not first given to the world by Mr. Robert Bell, in 1857, but nearly thirty years earlier by Motherwell, in the single volume of the Paisley Magazine, a now somewhat scarce book."

Neither Bell nor Motherwell were the earliest sources, both Laidlaw's and Leyden's versions predated Bell's and Motherwell's. The Laidlaw and Leyden ballads became part of the Abbotsford Collection which were the ballads collected for Sir Walter's Minstrelsy.

In Kittredge's 1904 edition of ESPB which he edited with Sergeant, he lists Leyden's MS as A* which gives it priority as the earliest and perhaps best example of Earl Brand. After John Leyden (September 8, 1775 – August 28, 1811) moved to Edinburgh in 1790 he became an acquaintance of Dr. Robert Anderson (1794), editor of The British Poets, and of The Literary Magazine and then to Dr. Alexander Murray, who helped Leyden with his study of Eastern languages. Anderson also introduced Leyden to Richard Heber, who was helping Scott collected ballads for his Minstrelsy. A bio on Leyden from an 1890 edition of The Encyclopedia Britannica reports:

Leyden was admirably fitted for helping in this kind of work, for he was a borderer himself, and an enthusiastic lover of old ballads and folklore. Scott tells how, on one occasion, Leyden walked 40 miles to get the last two verses of a ballad, and returned at midnight, singing it all the way with his loud, harsh voice, to the wonder and consternation of the poet and his household.

Leyden's version titled "Earl o' Bran," which I've dated 1802 (MS 22b. in the Abbotsford Collection) was down written by Richard Heber who commented[], "I have not written the Chorus, but Mr Leyden, having it by him, knows how to insert it." The chorus was never inserted and remains unknown. Here's Leyden's version, from an unknown source, Edinburgh:

Earl o' Bran

1   Did ye ever hear o guid Earl o Bran
An the queen's daughter o the southlan?

2   She was na fifteen years o age
Till she came to the Earl's bed-side.

3   'O guid Earl o Bran, I fain wad see
My grey hounds run over the lea.'

4   'O kind lady, I have no steeds but one,
But ye shall ride, an I shall run.'

5   'O guid Earl o Bran, but I have twa,
An ye shall hae yere wael o those.'

6   The're ovr moss an the're over muir,
An they saw neither rich nor poor.

7   Till they came to ald Carl Hood,
He's ay for ill, but he's never for good.

8   'O guid Earl o Bran, if ye loe me,
Kill Carl Hood an gar him die.'

9   'O kind lady, we had better spare;
I never killd ane that wore grey hair.

10   'We'll gie him a penny-fie an let him gae,
An then he'll carry nae tiddings away.'

11   'Where hae been riding this lang simmer-day?
Or where hae stolen this lady away?'

12   'O I hae not riden this lang simmer-day,
Nor hae I stolen this lady away.

13   'For she is my sick sister
I got at the Wamshester.'

14   If she were sick an like to die,
She wad na be wearing the gold sae high.'

15   Ald Carl Hood is over the know,
Where they rode one mile, he ran four.

16   Till he came to her mother's yetts,
An I wat he rapped rudely at.

17   'Where is the lady o this ha?'
'She's out wie her maidens, playing at the ba.'

18   'O na! fy na!
For I met her fifteen miles awa.

19   'She's over moss, an she's over muir,
An a' to be the Earl o Bran's whore.'

20   Some rode wie sticks, an some wie rungs,
An a' to get the Earl o Bran slain.

21   That lady lookd over her left shoudder-bane:
'O guid Earl o Bran, we'll a' be taen!
For yond'r a' my father's men.

22   'But if ye'll take my claiths, I'll take thine,
An I'll fight a' my father's men.'

23   'It's no the custom in our land
For ladies to fight an knights to stand.

24   'If they come on me ane by ane,
I'll smash them a' doun bane by bane.

25   'If they come on me ane and a',
Ye soon will see my body fa.'

26   He has luppen from his steed,
An he has gein her that to had.

27   An bad her never change her cheer
Untill she saw his body bleed.

28   They came on him ane by ane,
An he smashed them doun a' bane by bane.

29   He sat him doun on the green grass,
For I wat a wearit man he was.

30   But ald Carl Hood came him behind,
An I wat he gae him a deadly wound.

31   He's awa to his lady then,
He kissed her, and set her on her steed again.

32   He rode whistlin out the way.
An a' to hearten his lady gay.

33   'Till he came to the water-flood:
'O guid Earl o Bran, I see blood!'

34   'O it is but my scarlet hood,
That shines upon the water-flood.'

35   They came on 'till his mother's yett,
An I wat he rappit poorly at.

36   His mother she 's come to the door:
'O son, ye 've gotten yere dead wie an English whore!'

37   'She was never a whore to me;
Sae let my brother her husband be.'

38   Sae ald Carl Hood was not the dead o ane,
But he was the dead o hale seeventeen.

At the end of William Laidlaw's fragmented 21-stanza version Scott had written at the head, "Earl Bran, another copy." Interesting is the second editor's footnote of Scott's Minstrelsy, volume 3: "At the time when Sir Walter Scott was collecting the materials for this work, the farm of Blackhouse was tenanted by the father of his attached friend, and in latter days factor (or land-steward), Mr. William Laidlaw. James Hogg was shepherd on the same farm, and in the course of one of his exploring rides up the glen of Yarrow, Sir Walter made acquaintance with young Laidlaw and the 'Mountain Bard,' who both thenceforth laboured with congenial zeal in behalf of his undertaking."

This was Scott's comment about "Lord Douglas": "Many copies of this ballad are current among the vulgar, but chiefly in a state of great corruption; especially such as have been committed to the press in the shape of penny pamphlets. One of these is now before me, which, among many others, has the ridiculous error of 'blue gilded horn,' for 'bugelet horn.' The copy, principally used in this edition of the ballad, was supplied by Mr. Sharpe."

In a letter to Scott, dated 5th August 1802, Charles Kirkpatric Sharpe wrote: 'The Douglas Tragedy was taught me by a nurserymaid, and was so great a favourite, that I committed it to paper as soon as I was able to write' (Correspondence, I. 135). Despite Scott's comments about the cheap print version, except for the last stanza Sharpe's version is not much different than the print version (see also Child I). The end of stanza 1 is a corruption of "a lord or a knight." Here's Sharpe's text:

Douglas Tragedy

1    'Rise up, rise up, now, Lord Douglas,' she says,
'And put on your armour so bright;
Let it never be said that a daughter of thine
Was married to a lord under night.

2    'Rise up, rise up, my seven bold sons,
And put on your armour so bright,
And take better care of your youngest sister,
For your eldest's awa the last night.'

3    He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
And himself on a dapple grey,
With a bugelet horn hung down by his side,
And lightly they rode away.

4    Lord William lookit oer his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
And there he spy'd her seven brethren bold,
Come riding over the lee.

5    'Light down, light down, Lady Margret,' he said,
'And hold my steed in your hand,
Until that against your seven brethren bold,
And your father, I mak a stand.'

6    She held his steed in her milk-white hand,
And never shed one tear,
Until that she saw her seven brethren fa,
And her father hard fighting, who lovd her so dear.

7    'O hold your hand, Lord William!' she said,
'For your strokes they are wondrous sair;
True lovers I can get many a ane,
But a father I can never get mair.'

8    O she's taen out her handkerchief,
It was o the holland sae fine,
And aye she dighted her father's bloody wounds,
That were redder than the wine.

9    'O chuse, O chuse, Lady Margret,' he said,
'O whether will ye gang or bide?'
'I'll gang, I'll gang, Lord William,' she said,
'For ye have left me no other guide.'

10    He's lifted her on a milk-white steed,
And himself on a dapple grey,
With a bugelet horn hung down by his side,
And slowly they baith rade away.

11    O they rade on, and on they rade,
And a' by the light of the moon,
Until they came to yon wan water,
And there they lighted down.

12    They lighted down to tak a drink
Of the spring that ran sae clear,
And down the stream ran his gude heart's blood,
And sair she gan to fear.

13    'Hold up, hold up, Lord William,' she says,
'For I fear that you are slain;'
'Tis naething but the shadow of my scarlet cloak,
That shines in the water sae plain.'

14    O they rade on, and on they rade,
And a' by the light of the moon,
Until they cam to his mother's ha door,
And there they lighted down.

15    'Get up, get up, lady mother,' he says,
'Get up, and let me in!
Get up, get up, lady mother,' he says,
'For this night my fair lady I've win.

16    'O mak my bed, lady mother,' he says,
'O mak it braid and deep,
And lay Lady Margret close at my back,
And the sounder I will sleep.'

17    Lord William was dead lang ere midnight,
Lady Margret lang ere day,
And all true lovers that go thegither,
May they have mair luck than they!

18    Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirk,
Lady Margret in Mary's quire;
Out o the lady's grave grew a bonny red rose,
And out o the knight's a briar.

19    And they twa met, and they twa plat,
And fain they wad be near;
And a' the warld might ken right weel
They were twa lovers dear.

20    But bye and rade the Black Douglas,
And wow but he was rough!
For he pulld up the bonny brier,
And flang't in St. Mary's Loch.

A comparison of Scott's "Lord Douglas" to "Earl Brand" shows that although they are ballads with the "Maid's family tries to prevent elopement" theme, the ballads are different. Perhaps the most telling difference is that Earl Brand has a chorus while Lord Douglas, also known as "Lord William and Lady Margaret," does not. Lord Douglas does not have the character Carl Hood who stabs Earl Brand in the back (see also: Braes of Yarrow, where it's one of the brothers) and has the rose briar ending, perhaps acquired from the similar tragic ballads "Fair Margaret and Sweet William" or "Lord Thomas and Fair Annet."

Along with the ballads classified under Child 7, Earl Brand are other similar "Maid's family tries to prevent elopement" ballads. The ballads of Child 7 have two different groups of people trying to prevent the elopement: 1) Earl Brand, is pursue by her father and 15 men while 2) Lord William (Douglas), also Child of Ell, is pursued by the maid's father and seven brothers. Similar themes are found in other ballads including The Bold Soldier (Bold Keeper/Lady and the Dragoon); the Braes o Yarrow (including "Rare Willie") ballads; and "Fair Margaret and Sweet William."

Early texts of the "Maid's family tries to prevent elopement" ballads include The Child of Ell- Child F, from Percy in 1753- but older- and dating back to 1673 is the broadside of the related Bold Soldier (See: 7A The Lady and the Dragoon) ballad, titled, "The Bold Keeper."

Child assigns "Earl Brand" as his A version with his version 7Aa taken from Mr. Robert White's papers. Both 7Aa and 7Ab are from Mr. Robert White's papers. Child gives the changes from Aa for Ab in his end notes. Ac is given in full by Robert Bell with some changes. Ad is a fragment from Mrs. Andrews, Mr. White's sister and only one change and the refrain are given-- so Ad will be impossible to reconstruct without the MS. The rational for making Earl Brand his A version appears to be his comparison with the older Danish ballads represented by "Ribold and Guldborg." The problem with making Earl Brand Child's A version is that there are only 5 traditional versions and the ballad did not continue past the mid-1800s, whereas the "Lord Douglas" ballad was popular and remained popular (as evidence see both Greig/Duncan Collection and Carpenter Collection) and was brought to America where it was collected in Maritime Canada, New England and the Appalachians.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 May 18 - 12:42 PM

I think the rationale for making it his A version is simply the couplet form which generally speaking and in other cases tends to be older, or perceived as older, than the quatrain format. The same would appear to apply to Scandinavian ballads. I don't think how a variant had continued in tradition had any relevance to Child's ordering of them. He seems to have used different criteria at different times to his chosen ordering, sometimes what he perceived as the best/fullest copy, often Mrs Brown, came first, but at other times he orders them chronologically in order of when they first appeared.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 18 - 07:02 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/G, pp. 06750-06751
Has the "blue guilded horn" of print version. Almost no dialect, then suddenly -- dialect for words previously given without it (see stanza 8, for example).

The Douglas Tragedy- sung by Mrs Annie Kidd of Ivy Cottage, Glen Ythen, Rothienorman, Aberdeenshire. Collected by James Madison Carpenter, c. 1930.

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold,
Stand up to your armour so bright,
May it never be said of your dear sister,
To be married to a [lord or] knight."

2. "Stand up, stand up, lady Margaret," he said,
"And hold my steed in your hand,
Or I be revenged of your seven brethren bold
And your father put to a stand."

3. "Hold off, hold off," Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes are wondrous sore,
I may get a sweetheart and many a one,
But I'll never get a father any more."

4. She has stood and longer stood,
And many was the tear shed she,
Until he saw her seven brothers slain,
An her father, who she loved so dear.

5. "Will you go with me, Lady Margaret?" he said
Will you go with me or bide?"
"I'll go with you, Lord William," she said
Since you have left me no other guide."

6. He has mounted her on a milk-white steed,
Himsel on a dappled grey,
With his blue guilded [bugle] horn hanging doon by his side,
As so slowly as they rode away.

7. They rode on, and farther on,
It was a' by the light o' the moon,
Until they came to a clear water,
And there they lighted doon.

8. They lighted doon to take a drink,
Of the water that ran so clear,
When doon the stream ran her sweetheart's blood,
Then sair, sair did she fear."

9. "Hold up, hold up, Lord William," she cried,
"I'm afraid that you are slain,
"It's but the shadow of my scarlet red cloak,
That shines in the water so clear."

10. They rode on, and farther on,
Twas yet by the light o' the moon,
Until they came to his mother boor [bow'r] door,
And there they lighted doon.

11. "Oh mother dear will you make my bed,
you will make it soft and fine,
And lay my lady down by my side,
That we may sleep full soon."

12. Lord William was dead or [e're] the middle of the night,
Lady Margaret long before morrow,
Lord William died of his wounds,
Lady Margaret died of sorrow.

13. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirk [yard],
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's square,
And out of her bosom grew a red rose,
And out of her lover's a briar.

14. They grew and they grew to the very church top,
Till they could not grow any higher,
So they twined themselves about in a true lover's knot,
For true lovers to admire.

15. So this twa met and this twa plait,
And so fain as they would have been near,
So all you truelovers who come this way,
May know they were twa lovers dear.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 18 - 07:21 PM

TY Steve,

I've been wondering about the "name-calling" found in the Scandinavian versions. The maid is warned not to call out her lover's name in battle. When she does he is stabbed with the fatal blow.

Curiously this happens in "Lord Douglas," although no mention of it is made by Child nor does Lord William instruct her. Stanza 7 is:

7    'O hold your hand, Lord William!' she said,
'For your strokes they are wondrous sair;

Then he receives a mysterious fatal wound (unmentioned) which she sees when they go to the clear water.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 18 - 07:35 PM

Hi,

It's the same scene in Ribolt and Guldborg [from Danish Kaempe Viser p. 750]:

"Hald, hald, my Ribolt, dearest mine,
Now belt thy brand, for it's mair nor time.

"My youngest brither ye spare, O spare
To my mither the dowy news to bear;

"To tell o' the dead in this sad stour—
O wae, that ever she dochter bure!"

Whan Ribolt's name she nam'd that stound,
'Twas then that he gat his deadly wound.

However, in Lord Douglas no mention of the wound is made. William is just wounded but says nothing and even at the clear water denies the wound-- that stanza at the clear water (where he says the red/blood in the water is "nothing but the shadow of my scarlet cloak") is the only common stanza in Earl Brand and Lord Douglas.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 18 - 09:45 PM

Hi,

This is a long version from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/D, pp. 04647-04649 with the 'Black Douglas' ending. Arbitrary dialect.

The Douglas Tragedy- sung by Miss Jean Esselmont of Central Square, Cuminestown, Aberdeenshire in 1931. Collected by James Madison Carpenter.

1. "Arise, arise, my seven brothers bold,
An' gird on your armour so bright,
An' better take care of your youngest sister,
Your eldest's away last night."

2. "Arise, arise, my seven brothers bold,
An' gird on your armour so bright,
Let it never be said that a sister of yours
Was married to a lord in the night[1]."

3. He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
An' himsel on a dapple grey,
The night was bright, the moon shone bright,
And merrily they both rode away.

4. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
An' there he spied her father an' her seven brothers bold,
Come riding over the lea.

5. "Licht doon, licht doon, Lady Margaret," he says,
"Take my steed by the rein,
I'll go fight your seven brethren bold,
And your father, I'll make for to stand."

6. She held his horse in her milk-white hand,
And never shed a tear,
Until that she sa' her seven brothers bold,
And her father was fighting so dear.

7. "Hold off, hold off," Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes are wondrous sore,
Sweethearts I can get many a one,
But a father I'll never get more."

8. "O choose, Lady Margaret, choose," said he,
"Whether ye will go or bide.
"I'll go with you Lord William," she cried,
"Since ye've left me no other guide."

9. He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
Himsel on a dapple grey,
An' with his bugle horn hanging down by his side,
An' so slowly they both rode away.

10. They rode on, an' farther on,
An' twas all by the light of the moon,
Till they came to yon clear stream,
And twas there they both lichted doon.

11. They both lichted doon to take a drink,
Of the water that ran so clear,
Twas there that she saw Lord William's heart's blood to flow,
Twas then she begun for to fear.

12. "Hold up, hold up, Lord William," she cried,
"For I fear that you've been slain,
"O no," he cried, "'Tis my reid scarlet cloak,
That shines in the water so plain."

13. He's mounted her on her milk-white steed,
An' himsel on the dapple grey,
With his bugle horn hanging down by his side,
An' so slowly's they both rode away.

14. It's they rode on, and on they rode,
Twas all by the light of the moon,
Until they came to his mother's hall door,
And twas there they both lichted doon.

15. "Ye'll mak my bed, mother," he says
"Ye'll mak it tae me fu' soon,
And lay Lady Margaret close to my back,
That I may sleep fu' soon."

16. Lord William died in the middle of the night,
Lady Margaret died on the morrow,
Lord William died for his ain true love,
Lady Margaret died of sorrow.

17. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's Kirk yaird,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's choir,
On Lady Margaret's breist grew a reid, reid rose,
An' on Lord William's a briar.

18. They grew and they grew to the very church top,
Till they could not grow any higher,
So they twined themselves about in a true lover's knot,
For true lovers to admire.

19. They twa met and they twa plett,
An' sae fain's they would be near,
That all the wardle it micht ken,
That they were twa lovers dear.

20. Up then cam the Black Douglas,
An' o but he wis roch [rough],
He pulled oot the bonnie, bonnie briar
An' flung't in St. Mary's Loch.
________________________

1. Usually "lord or a knight"

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 18 - 10:28 PM

Hi,
   
From the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/G, p. 06757. A short version in fairly consistent dialect. I've filled in last two lines missing in stanza ten, the opening is unique.

The Douglas Tragedy- sung by William Mackey of Logie Lodge, Lonmay, Aberdeenshire in 1932. Collected by James Madison Carpenter.

1. "Stand up, stand up, my seven sons so bold,
An' stand to your armour so clear,
An' take better care of your youngest sister,
For your eldest's awa' I fear."

2. He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
An' himsel on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hingin doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rode away.

3. "Hold off, hold off," Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes are wondrous sore,
For sweethearts I'll get monny a ane,
But a father I'll never get more."

4. "O choose, O choose, Lady Margaret," he says,
"Whether to go or to bide.
"O I maun go along wi' you,
"For you've left me no other guide."

5. They rode on, an' on they rode,
It wis a' by the licht o' the moon,
Until they came to yon wan water,
It wis there they baith lichted doon.

6. They lichted doon to tak a drink,
Frae the water that rinnin sae clear,
Twas there that she sa' his heart's blood rin doon,
Twas there she began for to fear.

7. "Stand off, stand off, Lord William," she cries,
"I afraid that ye are slain,
"It's only the color of my reid scarlet cloak,
Goin' trinklin' doon the stream."

8. He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
An' himsel on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hingin' down by his side,
An' so slowly's they baith rode away.

9. "Ye'll mak my bed baith lang an' wide,
An' mak it soft and deep,
An' lay my truelove my side,
That the sooner I may sleep."

10. Lord William died in the middle o' the nicht,
Lady Margaret died on the morrow,
[Lord William died for his ain true love,
Lady Margaret died of sorrow.]

11. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's church,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's choir,
An' oot o' Lord William's breist there sprung a reid rose,
An' oot o Lady Margaret's a sweet briar.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 18 - 09:22 AM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/G, pp. 06748-06749, inconsistent dialogue.

The Douglas Tragedy- sung by Alexander B. Campbell (1883- 1954) of Ythan Wells, Aberdeenshire in 1932. Collected by James Madison Carpenter.

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold,
Stand up to your armour so bright,
Let it never be said a sister o yours,
Was married to a lord or a knight."

2. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could spy,
And there he spied her seven brothers bold,
And her father still drawing nigh.

3. "Come doon, come doon, Lady Margaret," he said,
"Hold my steed in your milk white hand,
Till I turn back your seven brothers bold,
And make your father to stand."

4. She held his steed by the bridal rein,
Without ever shedding a tear,
Until that she saw her seven brothers fall,
And her father was fighting severe.

5. "Hold off, hold off," Lord William," she said,
"Your strokes are wondrous sair,
Sweethearts I will get many a one,
But a father I'll never get mair."

6. "Choose, then choose, Lady Margaret," he said,
"It's either to go or to bide.
"O maun gang wi' you Lord William," she said,
"Since ye've left me nae other guide."

7. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
An' himsel on a dapple grey,
His sword and his bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
And so slowly they both rode away.

8. They rode on, and still further on,
It was all by the light of the moon,
Until that they came to yon clear running stream,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

9. Twas there they both lighted doon for to drink,
O' the water so cool and so clear,
Twas there she spied the reid drops o blood,
Fall into the water so clear.

10. "I'm afraid, I'm afraid, Lord William," she said,
"I'm afraid that ye've been slain,
"It's nothing but my scarlet cloak,
That shines in the river so plain."

11. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
And himsel on the dapple grey,
His sword and his bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
And so slowly they both rode away.

12. They rode on, and still further on,
It was all by the light of the moon,
Until that they came to his mother's ha' door,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

13. "Get up, get up, lady mother," he said
"Get up and let me in.
"Get up, get up, lady mother," he said,
'For this nicht mt fair lady I've won."

14. "O mak my bed, lady mother," he said
"O mak it braid and deep,
And ye'll lay Lady Margaret at my back,
And the sounder we may sleep."

15. Lord William he died in the middle o' the nicht,
Lady Margaret she died on the morrow,
Lord William died for his true love's sake,
Lady Margaret died of sorrow.

16. Lord William was buried in the green church yard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's choir,
Out o' Lord William there grew a reid rose,
And out o' Lady Margaret a briar.

17. They grew and grew and still further grew,
Till they reached one another there,
And now they are twined in a true lover's knot,
For all true lovers to admire.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 18 - 09:40 AM

Hi,

This is a fragment from Alexander Campbell's son: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/201, Disc Side 195, 00:1

The Douglas Tragedy- two stanza fragment with music sung by Hector Campbell, b. 1903 (son of Alexander B. Campbell) of Ythan Wells, Aberdeenshire about 1932. Collected by James Madison Carpenter.

"Light doon, light doon, Lady Margaret," he said,
"Hold my steed in yer hand,
Until I face your seven brothers bold,
And make your father to stand."

* * * *

"O choose, then choose, Lady Margaret," he said,
"It's ye either go or it's bide.
"O I'm gaun wi' you Lord William," she said,
"For you've left me no other guide."

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 18 - 10:45 AM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/G, pp. 06762-06763, inconsistent dialect.

The Douglas Tragedy- sung by John Riddoch of Oyne, Aberdeenshire about 1931. Collected by James Madison Carpenter.

1. "Rise up, rise up, Lord Douglas," she cried
An' put on your armour so bright,
An' better take care of your youngest sister,
For the eldest's away last night."

2. "Rise up, rise up, ye seven sons so bold,
Put on your armour so bright,
An' better take care of your youngest sister,
For the eldest's away last night."

3. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
Twas then he saw her seven brothers bold,
Come riding over the lea.

4. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
Himsel on a dapple grey,
With a bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
So slowly they baith rode away.

5. They rode on, an' farther on,
It was all by the light of the moon,
Until they came to a clear winding stream,
It wis there they baith lichted doon.


6. "Licht doon, licht doon, Lady Margaret," he cried,
"An' tak my steed in yer hand,
Till I go fight wi your seven brothers bold,
An' your father, I'll make for to stand."

7. She took his steed in her milk-white hand,
And she never did shed one tear,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
And her father fighting severe.

8. "O hold ye, O hold ye," Lord William," she cried,
"For your strokes are wondrous sore,
Lovers I may get many's the one,
But a father I will find no more."

9. Then he bent doon to quench his thirst,
An' drink o' the water so clear,
Twas then that she spied his heart's blood run doon,
Twas then she began to fear.

10. "Hold up, hold up, Lord William," she cried,
"Hold up, ere ye be dead,
"Tis naught, tis naught, Lady Margaret" he said,
"But the shining of my coat so red."

11. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
An' himself on his dapple grey,
With a bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly's they baith rode away.

12. They rode on, and farther on,
Twas all by the light of the moon,
Until they came to his mother's hall door,
It was there that they baith lichted doon.

13. "Rise up, rise up, my mother dear
Rise up an' lat me in.
This night through stress an blood, I fear
"My lady I have won."

14. "O mother dear go mak my bed;
"Mak it baith lang, saft an deep,
And lay Lady Margaret along my side,
That the sounder we may sleep."

15. Lord William died in the middle of the night,
Lady Margaret died on the morrow,
[Lord William died for his ain true love],
Lady Margaret died of sorrow.

17. They buried them baith in St. Mary's church yard,
Right in the middle of the square,
Out of the lady's grave there grew a bonnie rose,
While out of the knight's grew a briar.

18. They twa met an' they twa plett,
Growing in beauty together,
. . .
. . . .

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 18 - 10:57 AM

Hi,

Single stanza with music: AFC 1972/001, MS p. 08081.
James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/E, p. 08081

The Douglas Tragedy- sung by Miss Elizabeth Craig of Woodtown Cottage, Birkenhills, by Turriff, Scotland.

Sir William he died in the middle o' the night,
Lady Margaret she died on the morrow,
Sir William he died of pure true love,
Lady Margaret she died of sorrow.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 18 - 11:34 AM

Hi,

Two end stanzas with music: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/15, Disc Side 015, 02:58

Douglas Tragedy- sung by Jessie Davidson of Willow Cottage, Tugnet, Speybay, Scotland c. 1931.

Lord William was buried in St. Mary's choir,
Lady Margaret in Shrewbury choir,
On Lady Margaret's breist grew a red, red rose,
And on Lord William's a briar.

They twa met and they twa plat,
Sae fain as they would be near,
That all true lovers that come this way,
They were twa true lovers dear,
They were twa true lovers dear.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 18 - 11:41 AM

Hi,

Single stanza with music;   James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/F, p. 08086

Douglas Tragedy- sung by Mrs. Lyall, Lyne of Skene, Aberdeenshire, c. 1931

On they rode, and on they rode,
Twas all by the light of the moon,
Until they came to his mother's ha' door,
An' there they both lighted down.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 18 - 11:57 AM

Hi,

Two stanzas with music; James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/6/5/B, p. 09622

Douglas Tragedy- sung by Mrs. Isabella Reed of Port Gordon, c. 1931

"Hold on, hold on," Lord William," she cried,
"For your strokes is so wondrous sair,
It's sweethearts I got many's the one,
But a father I'll never get mair."

He mounted her on his milk-white steed,
Himself on his dapple grey,
His sword and his bugle horn hanging down by his side,
And straight they both rode away.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 18 - 12:47 PM

This lone US version is from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/H, pp. 06768-06769. It's so close to Scott's printed version (Sharpe, 1802) that it's possibly taken from it and reworded.

Douglas Tragedy- sung by Viola Cook of Whitesburg, Kentucky c. 1938

1   "Rise up, rise up, Lord Douglas," she said
"And put on your armor so bright.
Let it never be said that a daughter of mine
Was married to a lord by night[1]."

2    "Rise up, rise up, my seven bold sons,
And put on your armour so bright,
And take better care of your youngest sister,
For your eldest's was wed last night."

3    He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
And himself on a dapple grey,
With a bugled horn hung down by his side,
And lightly they rode away.

4    Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
And there he spied her seven brothers bold,
Come riding over the lea.

5   "Light down, light down, Lady Margaret," he said,
"And hold my steed in your hand,
Until that again your seven brethren bold,
And your father, I make a stand."

6    She held his steed in her milk-white hand,
And never shed one tear,
Until that she saw her seven brothers fall,
And her father, who loved her so dear.

7   "O hold your hand, Lord William," she said,
"For your strokes they are wonderous strong;
True lovers I can get many a one,
But a father I can never get no more."

8   O she's took out her handkerchief,
It was o the holland satin fine,
And soon she had bandaged her father's bloody wounds,
That were redder than the wine.

9   "O choose, O choose, Lady Margaret," he said,
"O whether will you go or bide?"
"I'll go, I'll go, Lord William," she said,
"For you have left me no other guide.'

10    He lifted her on a milk-white steed,
And himself on a dapple grey,
With a bugled horn hung down by his side,
And slowly they both rode away.

11    O they rode, and they rode,
And by the light of the moon,
Until they come to yon clear water,
And there they lighted down.

12    They lighted down to take a drink
Of the spring that run so clear,
And down the stream run his good heart's blood,
And very strong she begin to fear.

13 "Hold up, hold up, Lord William," she said,
"For I fear that you are slain."
"That is nothing but the shadow of my scarlet cloak,
That shines in the water so plain.'

14    O they rode, and they rode,
And by the light of the moon,
Until they come to his mother's hut door,
And there they lighted down.

15   "Get up, get up, lady mother," he says,
"Get up, and let me in.
Get up, get up, lady mother,' he says,
"For this night my fair lady I've win."

16   "O make my bed, lady mother,' he says,
"O make it wide and deep,
And lay Lady Margret close at my back,
And the sounder I will sleep.'

17    Lord William was dead long before midnight,
Lady Margaret long before day,
And all truelovers that go together,
May they have more luck than they.

18    Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirk,
Lady Margaret in Mary's quire;
Out of the lady's grave grew a bonny red rose,
And out of the knight's a briar.

19    And they climbed and entwined, and they climbed and entwined,
Until they could not climb any higher;
The world might come from the east and the west
And see they were two true lovers.

20    And by and by rode the Black Douglas,
And lo but he was rough,
For he pulled up the bonny briar,
And flung it to St. Mary's Loch.

1. This is sim. to Scott's version-- usually it's "lord or knight."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 May 18 - 04:20 PM

Apropos the name calling, are you suggesting some sort of supernatural intervention? All I see is a momentary distraction with disastrous consequences in Danish and Scottish. Of course it would not be out of place for some ballad editor to put a supernatural spin on it.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 May 18 - 04:28 PM

Looked more closely at some versions of Ribold and Guldborg and we do have this curious idea of 'Naming me dead'. Although not necessarily something supernatural per se it could have something to do with an ancient belief. I would imagine Child has something to say on this and he would have certainly have asked Gruntvig about it. So in the Danish at least something more than distraction. I'll check Child's headnotes.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 May 18 - 04:34 PM

No need to check Child it's in prior's headnotes.
'The naming to death'
This superstition is explained in the Fafnisma'l. Sigurd concealed his name, because it was the belief in old times, that a dying man's words had great power, if he cursed his enemy by name.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 May 18 - 04:34 PM

Prior's

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 11 May 18 - 02:18 PM

Hi,

I've finished Carpenter and now Greig Duncan for Child 7. Below is first part (50 stanzas) of Bell Robertson's recitation of "Child of Elle" which is an improvement (at least it's easier to read) of Percy's recreation (TY Steve for sending a copy):

* * * *

From an article in Folk-Song of the North East (c.1910) by Gavin Greig of New Deer, first part of Bell Robertson's recitation of "Child of Elle" originally by Percy based on his 1753 MS.

1. On yonder hill a castle stands,   
With walls and towers bedight,
And there does dwell the Child of Elle,
A young and comely knight.

2. The Child of Elle to his garden went,
Stood at his garden pale,
When, lo, he saw fair Emmeline's page
Come tripping down the dale.

3. The Childe of Elle he hied him hence,
I wot he stood na still,
And soon he met fair Emmeline's page
Came climbing up the hill.

4. Now safe thee, safe thee, little foot-page,
And come thou safe and free!
Pray tell me how is thy lady gay,
And what may thy tidings be?

5. My lady she is woe begone,
The tears fa' frae her e'en;
And aye she laments the deadly feud
Between her house and thine.

6. And here she sends thee a silken scarf
Bedewed with mony a tear,
And bides thee sometimes think on her,
Who loved thee so dear.

7. And here she sends thee a gay gold ring,
The last boon thou must have,
And bids thee wear it for her sake,
When she is in her grave.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 15 May 18 - 10:09 PM

Hi,

I'm wrapping up Child 7, here are the roughed in end notes (comments welcome):

* * * *
Some conclusions-- The fragment of the Child of Ell from Percy's 1753 MS can hardly be the model or ur-ballad partially because the last page of the MS was missing. The theme of the maid who elopes with her lover and is pursued by her father and brothers (or father's men) is found in a number of ballads and broadsides in English speaking countries and in Scandinavia where it was also popular. The details of the UK ballads vary enough so that the Scottish "Earl Brand" and "Douglas Tragedy" should be considered different yet similar ballads. Child, to his credit, did separate "Erlington" from these and presumably did not include "Bold Soldier/Lady and the Dragoon" ballads in his 305 because they were derived from broadsides. The "Bold Soldier/Lady and the Dragoon" ballads are included as Appendix 7A as they appear in Bronson's "Traditional Tunes."

"The Douglas Tragedy" also titled "Lord William and Lady Margaret" was well known in Aberdeenshire in the mid-1800s until the mid-1900s as evidenced by number of ballads (around 40) collected by Greig and Duncan about 1908 and the versions collected by James Madison Carpenter in the early 1930s. "The Douglas Tragedy/Lord William and Lady Margaret" ballad was brought to America probably by the late 1700s where it was found in Appalachian (Virginia colony) as well as the Northeast and Canada.

The nature of the "Douglas Tragedy" ur-ballad is hard to fathom. It was brought to America in mostly corrupt form which shows it was in traditional circulation rather than in print. The prints in Scotland that appeared in chapbooks from 1792 to 1800 represent later reductions where the name "Lord Douglas" has been added. The Scottish Lord Douglas prints also appear to be missing the opening stanza(s) and other corruptions were pointed out by Scott[]. In America the name "Lord Douglas" is not found[], rather it's "Lord William" or "Sweet William." This puzzling bit of information means that the American versions must have been derived from an earlier unknown UK version. The American versions have an introductory stanza which may be a corruption or an earlier missing UK stanza:

1 As he rode up to the old man's gate
So boldly he did say,
"Your oldest daughter you may keep at home,
But the young one I'll take away."

This stanza shows the elopement (abduction) of the youngest daughter not clearly presented in the Scottish "Lord Douglas" versions which say, "take better care of your youngest sister" but fail to mention the the elopement (abduction). Neither the UK or American versions of Lord Douglas properly show the elopement (abduction) and Earl Brand is no better-- it just has the fifteen year old King's daughter who "sae boldly she came to his bedside." The few US versions[] with a common four stanza introduction are from Mississippi and Virginia and feature "Sweet William" and "Fair Elinor/Ellender" or "Fair Ellen" (see, for example, the opening stanzas below by Mrs. Theodosia B. Long and Mary Ila Long, Mississippi, between 1923 and 1930; Hudson). Stanzas 3 and 4 seem to have borrowed this introduction from another ballad (see: Lord Thomas) and the stanzas are not supported by corroborating versions in the UK:

1. Before the rising of the sun,
One morning early in sweet May,
When the tops of the trees were very green,
And the roots had withered away.

2. Sweet William mounted the milk-white steed,
He proudly led the dappled gray,
He swung his bugles around his neck,
And he went riding away.

3. He rode till he came to fair Eleanor's gate,
And tingled loudly at the ring,
"Are you sleepin! or not fair Eleanor," he said,
"Are you sleeping or not within?"

4. Fair Eleanor gladly rosed up,
And quickly slipped on her shoes,
And straightway out to her dear Sweet William,
Fair Eleanor she then goes.

5. He helped her up on the milk-white steed,
And proudly rode the dappled gray ,
He swung his bugles around his neck,
And they went riding away.

The 5th stanza ties back into Child B texts. These are either missing UK introductory stanzas or more likely it is an attempt to include missing opening stanzas not found in the UK versions of Child B. The same or similar stanzas are found five versions from Mississippi and Virginia.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:39 AM

Hi,

Here is a rough draft of current Child 7 headnotes: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british-versions-7-earl-brand-lord-douglas.aspx Comments welcome.

I'd like to briefly discuss Erlington and the Child 7 Appendix "Bold Soldier/Lady and the Dragoon" before starting a new thread with new Carpenter Collection versions (Child 9).

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 17 May 18 - 10:03 PM

Hi,

Need to ck this info: The Bold Soldier/Dragoon and the Lady ballads originate from two English black-letter broadsides of the late seventeenth century: "The Seaman's Renown in winning his fair lady" (1670) and "The Master-piece of Love Songs,"(1695).

Ebsworth attributes the exemplar "Seaman's Renown" to Joseph Martin and it was printed by William Thackeray in 1670 at the Angel in Duck Lane, London a printshop that was used by a group of printers. The latter recreation "The Master-piece of Love Songs" or "Bold Keeper" was printed by his son Thomas in 1695.

Steve, can you ck this for me?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 18 May 18 - 07:33 PM

Hi,

Need some help identifying the location (Arcadia, where is it?) and writer. Anyone?

This version is from Macmillan's Magazine, Volume 75, London and New York, 1897 quoted in an article "A Winter's Walk." The informant, old Mr. Francis was from Arcadia (Arcady).

"We will end our recollections of Francis for the present with one of his songs; the Bold Dragon he called it, but the dragon proved to be only a dragoon of King George's after all."

A soldier, a soldier, a valiant man was he,
He courted a lady of very high degree;
Her fortune was so large, it never could be told,
And she loved the soldier because he was so bold.

"My father is a knight, a knight of high renown,
If I should wed a soldier, 'twould bring
his honour down, For your birth and mine, love, it never would agree,
So take it for a warning, bold soldier," said she.

"No warning, no warning, no warning will I take,
I'll either wed or die for my true lover's sake."
The hearing of this news, it made her heart to bleed,
And straightways to the church, and were married with speed.

And when they were married and coming home again
She spied her father coming with seven armed men.
She said, "My dearest dear, both of us shall be slain."
"Fear none of them at all," said the valiant dragon.

"Ride on, ride on, my dear, we ha' no time to prattle;
You see they all are armed, and fixed for the battle!"
Then he drawed his broadsword, which made their bones to rattle,
And the lady held the horse while the dragon fought the battle.

"Oh hold thy hand, dear dragon, dear dragon, hold thy hand,
And thou shalt have my daughter and ten thousand pound in land!"
"Fight on," says the lady, "the portion is too small!"
"Oh hold thy hand, dear dragon, thou shalt be heir of all!"

And here we must leave old Francis, a pathetic figure, surely, sitting by his cinder fire and repeating his ballads of youth and happiness.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 20 May 18 - 12:43 PM

Hi,

By the late 1700s early 1800s several print versions of "Bold Keeeper" appeared which eliminated the wooing dialogue of the earlier 1670 and 1695 prints:

The Light Dragoon: To which are added, the orange and blue, and the humours of Smithfield. Publisher: Glasgow: Printed by J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket, 1800 and also combined with other songs in a Robertson chapbook dated 1808.

It is a pretty story,
A story you shall hear,
Of a jolly light dragoon,
As plainly doth appear;
He courted a rich Lady,
Of honor, birth and fame,
and thought to gain her favour,
But it was all in vain.

Her father was a noble knight,
A man of high renown,
And for to marry a soldier,
'Twould pull her honour down:
For your birth and his birth
They never will agree,
So pray young man take your answer,
And so begone from me.

For an answer is more
Than ever I would take,
For I would lay down my life,
All for the Lady's sake.
Soon as the lady heard this,
Her heart began to bleed;
Then straight the Lady and Dragoon,
Were married with speed.

When ever they were married,
And coming back again,
This you lady espy'd her Father,
And seven well armed men.
Aloud, aloud, the Lady cry'd,
I'm afraid we'll all be slain,
Never fear, said the jolly Dragoon,
We'll rife and fight again.

Then he said, My dearest dear,
we have no time to prattle,
For you see they are all armed,
And ready for the battle.
He drew his sword and pistol
and his coutrements did rattle,
And the Lady held the horse,
Till the Dragoon fought the battle.

Hold your hand, hold your hand,
Her father did cry,
And you shall have my Daughter,
And twenty thousand pound.
Fight on, fight on, my jolly Dragoon,
We will overcome them all.

Come all you pretty maidens,
That soldiers do admire,
O do not slight a soldier,
Let him be ne'er so poor.
For they are men of honour,
Belonging to the crown,
Here's a health to George our king,
And to this light Dragoon.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 20 May 18 - 08:47 PM

Hi,

The extant US print versions dated are 1800, 1809 and 1810 are similar. Here's the text from "Minot Baker's favourite collection of ancient and modern songs," Boston, 1809:

1. I'll tell you of a soldier, who lately came from war,
who courted a lady of honor, rich and fair;
Her fortune was so great, that it scarcely could be told,
But yet, she lov'd the soldier, because he was so bold.

2. She said, my dearest jewel, I would fain be your wife,
But my dadda is so cruel, I fear he'll end my life.
He took his sword and pistols, and hung them by his side,
And swore that he would marry her, Whatever might betide.

3. When they had been to church, and returning home again,
Her old dadda met them, with seven armed men;
O dear, said the lady, I fear we shall be slain.
Fear nothing, my charmer, the soldier said again.

4. The old man to his daughter, with a great frown did say,
Is this your behavior? Is this your merry day?
Since you have been so silly, as to be a soldier's wife,
Here in this lonesome valley, I'll end you[r] pleasant life.

5. And then spake up the soldier, I do not like this prattle,
Although I am a bridegroom, and unprepar'd for battle;
He snatch'd his sword and pistols, and made them all to rattle,
And the lady held the horse, while the soldier fought the battle.

6. The first man he came to, he quickly had him slain,
The next man he came to, he ran him thro amain,
Let's flee, cry'd the rest, for we soon shall all be slain,
To fight with this brave soldier, is altogether vain.

7. Pray, stay your hand, the old man cry'd, you make my blood run cold,
I'll give you with my daughter, five thousand pounds in gold;
Fight on, says the lady, my portion is too small,
O, stay your hand, dear soldier, and you shall have it all.

8. He took the soldier home, acknowledged him his heir,
'T was not because he loved him, But 'twas for dread and fear.
There never is a soldier, who's fit to carry a gun,
Will ever flinch, or start an inch, till the battle he has won.

9. Despise not a soldier because that he is poor,
He's happy in the field as at the barrack door,
Is bold, brisk, and airy, brave, sociable, and free,
As willing to fight for love, as for his Liberty.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 May 18 - 08:24 PM

Hi,

Of course the most absurd and unbelievable version has been supplied by Baring-Gould as his "A version." It's from Sabine Baring-Gould Manuscript Collection (SBG/1/2/220)- 2 pages as: The Masterpiece of Love Songs [A]. According to Baring-Gould The Masterpiece of Love Songs was "Taken down by F.W. Bussell from William Nankivel," no date but Baring Gould supplies this info about the informant in his notes for another song: "William Nankivel, an aged quarryman, who for years lived under Roos Tor, on the River Walla above Merrivale Bridge (Devon), absolutely illiterate, but with a memory laden with songs." Baring-Gould also supplies another melody for Masterpiece that was "Taken down from Sam Fone of Mary Tavy, by F.W.B., Dec. 23 1892."

No other versions of "Masterpiece" have been collected and it's very suspicious that Sam Fone would sing a version and no text is provided. Whether Nankivel sang a fragment that was recreated by Baring-Gould is unknown, clearly Baring-Gould knew Masterpiece but did not include the original text as a version-- as he usually did. The odds that this is a recreation are high and unless Bussel's original is found-- this cannot be considered legitimate. The language and radical changes found in this version, in my opinion, could not be found in tradition.

The Masterpiece of Love Songs [A]. "Taken down from 'Old Capul', W. Nankivell, Merrivale Bridge. clearly corrupt in metre, & lacking a last verse."

1. There was a gallant Forester,
Who chased the king’s deer,
He was a man of spirit bold,
And loved a lady dear,
“O prithee harken fair Lady,
My suit do you approve,
|: For I am in affection deep,
Toss’d to and fro in love.” :|

2. “My father is a nobleman
I do thus answer thee
And I am match for any lord
Of any high degree.”
“Both you & I, my lady sweet
From Adam came & Eve,
One loving word from your sweet lips,
To me is a reprieve.”

3. “My father is a haughty man,
An Earl of high Estate
And many gallant gentlemen
Upon his pleasure wait.
That I should wed a forester
He never would agree,
So mount your horse, good forester
And ride away from me.”

4. “O pretty lady fair & sweet
No warning will I take.
My life I gladly will lay down
All for thy dear sake.”
“Then set thee on thy saddle high
And I with thee will ride,
Unto the Church, & there indeed
I’ll make the my dear Bride.”

5. He set her on his milk white steed
And he rode her before
He spurr’d along the King’s highway,
Of miles they were a score.
And as they rode along the way
Her father she did spy.
Alack! alack! the Lady said
One or both soon shall die.

6. “Thy father, maid, I do not fear
Nor all his men beside,
The church is but a mile before,
Where you shall be my bride.”
Nor whip nor spur was stinted then
He never did give o'er,
Until the rein, the Forester,
He drew at the Church door.

7. The Earl he came a riding up
As fast as he could hie,
With six & twenty gentlemen
All in his company.
“Come on, come on the Forester said,
It is no time to prattle
I see by all your shining swords,
That you’re prepared to battle.

8. The wedding bells were ringing out
He stood against the wall
“Come on! come on! my gallant Earl,
Your merry men & all!”
To right, to left his sword did smite
And many there were slain,
The lady by the Churchyard wall
His horse held by the rein.

9. O then out spake the noble Earl,
“Stay, stay & hold thy hand.
I’ll give my daughter unto you,
Five thousand too in land.
“Strike on! strike on!” the lady said
The portion is too small!”
And still she held the horse she’d rode
Hard by the Churchyard wall.

10. “Now stay, now stay,” the Earl he said,
And let your will be done.
And I will give my daughter dear
A goodly fair portion.
And I will never bear a grudge
For all that thou hast done,
But I will love thee honestly,
And hold thee as a son.”
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 May 18 - 09:36 PM

Hi,

In "Songs and Ballads of the West: A Collection Made from the Mouths of the People" by Sabine Baring-Gould, 1892, he comments:

No two singers give the same ballad exactly alike, the variations are sometimes so great that we suspect they are reproductions by local poets of the old themes. A striking instance of this is “The Masterpiece of Love Songs," that was printed about 1670; and has been reproduced by Mr. Ashton, in his “Century of Ballads.” I have taken down one form of this, tolerably like the earliest printed form. It exists as a modern broadside in another. Mr. R. N. Worth has sent me another taken down from an old man of 87 quite different, and I have had a fourth also different from another singer.

Notice that here (Songs of the West) Baring Gould claims to have taken down "Masterpiece" but in his MS it's attributed to Bussell. The other singer is Sam Fone and his version's melody is given under Masterpiece with no text.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 May 18 - 04:18 PM

Knowing as we do about other SBG concoctions, what you say is highly likely.