Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 May 18 - 04:18 PM

Knowing as we do about other SBG concoctions, what you say is highly likely.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 May 18 - 09:36 PM

Hi,

In "Songs and Ballads of the West: A Collection Made from the Mouths of the People" by Sabine Baring-Gould, 1892, he comments:

No two singers give the same ballad exactly alike, the variations are sometimes so great that we suspect they are reproductions by local poets of the old themes. A striking instance of this is “The Masterpiece of Love Songs," that was printed about 1670; and has been reproduced by Mr. Ashton, in his “Century of Ballads.” I have taken down one form of this, tolerably like the earliest printed form. It exists as a modern broadside in another. Mr. R. N. Worth has sent me another taken down from an old man of 87 quite different, and I have had a fourth also different from another singer.

Notice that here (Songs of the West) Baring Gould claims to have taken down "Masterpiece" but in his MS it's attributed to Bussell. The other singer is Sam Fone and his version's melody is given under Masterpiece with no text.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 May 18 - 08:24 PM

Hi,

Of course the most absurd and unbelievable version has been supplied by Baring-Gould as his "A version." It's from Sabine Baring-Gould Manuscript Collection (SBG/1/2/220)- 2 pages as: The Masterpiece of Love Songs [A]. According to Baring-Gould The Masterpiece of Love Songs was "Taken down by F.W. Bussell from William Nankivel," no date but Baring Gould supplies this info about the informant in his notes for another song: "William Nankivel, an aged quarryman, who for years lived under Roos Tor, on the River Walla above Merrivale Bridge (Devon), absolutely illiterate, but with a memory laden with songs." Baring-Gould also supplies another melody for Masterpiece that was "Taken down from Sam Fone of Mary Tavy, by F.W.B., Dec. 23 1892."

No other versions of "Masterpiece" have been collected and it's very suspicious that Sam Fone would sing a version and no text is provided. Whether Nankivel sang a fragment that was recreated by Baring-Gould is unknown, clearly Baring-Gould knew Masterpiece but did not include the original text as a version-- as he usually did. The odds that this is a recreation are high and unless Bussel's original is found-- this cannot be considered legitimate. The language and radical changes found in this version, in my opinion, could not be found in tradition.

The Masterpiece of Love Songs [A]. "Taken down from 'Old Capul', W. Nankivell, Merrivale Bridge. clearly corrupt in metre, & lacking a last verse."

1. There was a gallant Forester,
Who chased the king’s deer,
He was a man of spirit bold,
And loved a lady dear,
“O prithee harken fair Lady,
My suit do you approve,
|: For I am in affection deep,
Toss’d to and fro in love.” :|

2. “My father is a nobleman
I do thus answer thee
And I am match for any lord
Of any high degree.”
“Both you & I, my lady sweet
From Adam came & Eve,
One loving word from your sweet lips,
To me is a reprieve.”

3. “My father is a haughty man,
An Earl of high Estate
And many gallant gentlemen
Upon his pleasure wait.
That I should wed a forester
He never would agree,
So mount your horse, good forester
And ride away from me.”

4. “O pretty lady fair & sweet
No warning will I take.
My life I gladly will lay down
All for thy dear sake.”
“Then set thee on thy saddle high
And I with thee will ride,
Unto the Church, & there indeed
I’ll make the my dear Bride.”

5. He set her on his milk white steed
And he rode her before
He spurr’d along the King’s highway,
Of miles they were a score.
And as they rode along the way
Her father she did spy.
Alack! alack! the Lady said
One or both soon shall die.

6. “Thy father, maid, I do not fear
Nor all his men beside,
The church is but a mile before,
Where you shall be my bride.”
Nor whip nor spur was stinted then
He never did give o'er,
Until the rein, the Forester,
He drew at the Church door.

7. The Earl he came a riding up
As fast as he could hie,
With six & twenty gentlemen
All in his company.
“Come on, come on the Forester said,
It is no time to prattle
I see by all your shining swords,
That you’re prepared to battle.

8. The wedding bells were ringing out
He stood against the wall
“Come on! come on! my gallant Earl,
Your merry men & all!”
To right, to left his sword did smite
And many there were slain,
The lady by the Churchyard wall
His horse held by the rein.

9. O then out spake the noble Earl,
“Stay, stay & hold thy hand.
I’ll give my daughter unto you,
Five thousand too in land.
“Strike on! strike on!” the lady said
The portion is too small!”
And still she held the horse she’d rode
Hard by the Churchyard wall.

10. “Now stay, now stay,” the Earl he said,
And let your will be done.
And I will give my daughter dear
A goodly fair portion.
And I will never bear a grudge
For all that thou hast done,
But I will love thee honestly,
And hold thee as a son.”
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 20 May 18 - 08:47 PM

Hi,

The extant US print versions dated are 1800, 1809 and 1810 are similar. Here's the text from "Minot Baker's favourite collection of ancient and modern songs," Boston, 1809:

1. I'll tell you of a soldier, who lately came from war,
who courted a lady of honor, rich and fair;
Her fortune was so great, that it scarcely could be told,
But yet, she lov'd the soldier, because he was so bold.

2. She said, my dearest jewel, I would fain be your wife,
But my dadda is so cruel, I fear he'll end my life.
He took his sword and pistols, and hung them by his side,
And swore that he would marry her, Whatever might betide.

3. When they had been to church, and returning home again,
Her old dadda met them, with seven armed men;
O dear, said the lady, I fear we shall be slain.
Fear nothing, my charmer, the soldier said again.

4. The old man to his daughter, with a great frown did say,
Is this your behavior? Is this your merry day?
Since you have been so silly, as to be a soldier's wife,
Here in this lonesome valley, I'll end you[r] pleasant life.

5. And then spake up the soldier, I do not like this prattle,
Although I am a bridegroom, and unprepar'd for battle;
He snatch'd his sword and pistols, and made them all to rattle,
And the lady held the horse, while the soldier fought the battle.

6. The first man he came to, he quickly had him slain,
The next man he came to, he ran him thro amain,
Let's flee, cry'd the rest, for we soon shall all be slain,
To fight with this brave soldier, is altogether vain.

7. Pray, stay your hand, the old man cry'd, you make my blood run cold,
I'll give you with my daughter, five thousand pounds in gold;
Fight on, says the lady, my portion is too small,
O, stay your hand, dear soldier, and you shall have it all.

8. He took the soldier home, acknowledged him his heir,
'T was not because he loved him, But 'twas for dread and fear.
There never is a soldier, who's fit to carry a gun,
Will ever flinch, or start an inch, till the battle he has won.

9. Despise not a soldier because that he is poor,
He's happy in the field as at the barrack door,
Is bold, brisk, and airy, brave, sociable, and free,
As willing to fight for love, as for his Liberty.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 20 May 18 - 12:43 PM

Hi,

By the late 1700s early 1800s several print versions of "Bold Keeeper" appeared which eliminated the wooing dialogue of the earlier 1670 and 1695 prints:

The Light Dragoon: To which are added, the orange and blue, and the humours of Smithfield. Publisher: Glasgow: Printed by J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket, 1800 and also combined with other songs in a Robertson chapbook dated 1808.

It is a pretty story,
A story you shall hear,
Of a jolly light dragoon,
As plainly doth appear;
He courted a rich Lady,
Of honor, birth and fame,
and thought to gain her favour,
But it was all in vain.

Her father was a noble knight,
A man of high renown,
And for to marry a soldier,
'Twould pull her honour down:
For your birth and his birth
They never will agree,
So pray young man take your answer,
And so begone from me.

For an answer is more
Than ever I would take,
For I would lay down my life,
All for the Lady's sake.
Soon as the lady heard this,
Her heart began to bleed;
Then straight the Lady and Dragoon,
Were married with speed.

When ever they were married,
And coming back again,
This you lady espy'd her Father,
And seven well armed men.
Aloud, aloud, the Lady cry'd,
I'm afraid we'll all be slain,
Never fear, said the jolly Dragoon,
We'll rife and fight again.

Then he said, My dearest dear,
we have no time to prattle,
For you see they are all armed,
And ready for the battle.
He drew his sword and pistol
and his coutrements did rattle,
And the Lady held the horse,
Till the Dragoon fought the battle.

Hold your hand, hold your hand,
Her father did cry,
And you shall have my Daughter,
And twenty thousand pound.
Fight on, fight on, my jolly Dragoon,
We will overcome them all.

Come all you pretty maidens,
That soldiers do admire,
O do not slight a soldier,
Let him be ne'er so poor.
For they are men of honour,
Belonging to the crown,
Here's a health to George our king,
And to this light Dragoon.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 18 May 18 - 07:33 PM

Hi,

Need some help identifying the location (Arcadia, where is it?) and writer. Anyone?

This version is from Macmillan's Magazine, Volume 75, London and New York, 1897 quoted in an article "A Winter's Walk." The informant, old Mr. Francis was from Arcadia (Arcady).

"We will end our recollections of Francis for the present with one of his songs; the Bold Dragon he called it, but the dragon proved to be only a dragoon of King George's after all."

A soldier, a soldier, a valiant man was he,
He courted a lady of very high degree;
Her fortune was so large, it never could be told,
And she loved the soldier because he was so bold.

"My father is a knight, a knight of high renown,
If I should wed a soldier, 'twould bring
his honour down, For your birth and mine, love, it never would agree,
So take it for a warning, bold soldier," said she.

"No warning, no warning, no warning will I take,
I'll either wed or die for my true lover's sake."
The hearing of this news, it made her heart to bleed,
And straightways to the church, and were married with speed.

And when they were married and coming home again
She spied her father coming with seven armed men.
She said, "My dearest dear, both of us shall be slain."
"Fear none of them at all," said the valiant dragon.

"Ride on, ride on, my dear, we ha' no time to prattle;
You see they all are armed, and fixed for the battle!"
Then he drawed his broadsword, which made their bones to rattle,
And the lady held the horse while the dragon fought the battle.

"Oh hold thy hand, dear dragon, dear dragon, hold thy hand,
And thou shalt have my daughter and ten thousand pound in land!"
"Fight on," says the lady, "the portion is too small!"
"Oh hold thy hand, dear dragon, thou shalt be heir of all!"

And here we must leave old Francis, a pathetic figure, surely, sitting by his cinder fire and repeating his ballads of youth and happiness.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 17 May 18 - 10:03 PM

Hi,

Need to ck this info: The Bold Soldier/Dragoon and the Lady ballads originate from two English black-letter broadsides of the late seventeenth century: "The Seaman's Renown in winning his fair lady" (1670) and "The Master-piece of Love Songs,"(1695).

Ebsworth attributes the exemplar "Seaman's Renown" to Joseph Martin and it was printed by William Thackeray in 1670 at the Angel in Duck Lane, London a printshop that was used by a group of printers. The latter recreation "The Master-piece of Love Songs" or "Bold Keeper" was printed by his son Thomas in 1695.

Steve, can you ck this for me?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:39 AM

Hi,

Here is a rough draft of current Child 7 headnotes: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british-versions-7-earl-brand-lord-douglas.aspx Comments welcome.

I'd like to briefly discuss Erlington and the Child 7 Appendix "Bold Soldier/Lady and the Dragoon" before starting a new thread with new Carpenter Collection versions (Child 9).

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 15 May 18 - 10:09 PM

Hi,

I'm wrapping up Child 7, here are the roughed in end notes (comments welcome):

* * * *
Some conclusions-- The fragment of the Child of Ell from Percy's 1753 MS can hardly be the model or ur-ballad partially because the last page of the MS was missing. The theme of the maid who elopes with her lover and is pursued by her father and brothers (or father's men) is found in a number of ballads and broadsides in English speaking countries and in Scandinavia where it was also popular. The details of the UK ballads vary enough so that the Scottish "Earl Brand" and "Douglas Tragedy" should be considered different yet similar ballads. Child, to his credit, did separate "Erlington" from these and presumably did not include "Bold Soldier/Lady and the Dragoon" ballads in his 305 because they were derived from broadsides. The "Bold Soldier/Lady and the Dragoon" ballads are included as Appendix 7A as they appear in Bronson's "Traditional Tunes."

"The Douglas Tragedy" also titled "Lord William and Lady Margaret" was well known in Aberdeenshire in the mid-1800s until the mid-1900s as evidenced by number of ballads (around 40) collected by Greig and Duncan about 1908 and the versions collected by James Madison Carpenter in the early 1930s. "The Douglas Tragedy/Lord William and Lady Margaret" ballad was brought to America probably by the late 1700s where it was found in Appalachian (Virginia colony) as well as the Northeast and Canada.

The nature of the "Douglas Tragedy" ur-ballad is hard to fathom. It was brought to America in mostly corrupt form which shows it was in traditional circulation rather than in print. The prints in Scotland that appeared in chapbooks from 1792 to 1800 represent later reductions where the name "Lord Douglas" has been added. The Scottish Lord Douglas prints also appear to be missing the opening stanza(s) and other corruptions were pointed out by Scott[]. In America the name "Lord Douglas" is not found[], rather it's "Lord William" or "Sweet William." This puzzling bit of information means that the American versions must have been derived from an earlier unknown UK version. The American versions have an introductory stanza which may be a corruption or an earlier missing UK stanza:

1 As he rode up to the old man's gate
So boldly he did say,
"Your oldest daughter you may keep at home,
But the young one I'll take away."

This stanza shows the elopement (abduction) of the youngest daughter not clearly presented in the Scottish "Lord Douglas" versions which say, "take better care of your youngest sister" but fail to mention the the elopement (abduction). Neither the UK or American versions of Lord Douglas properly show the elopement (abduction) and Earl Brand is no better-- it just has the fifteen year old King's daughter who "sae boldly she came to his bedside." The few US versions[] with a common four stanza introduction are from Mississippi and Virginia and feature "Sweet William" and "Fair Elinor/Ellender" or "Fair Ellen" (see, for example, the opening stanzas below by Mrs. Theodosia B. Long and Mary Ila Long, Mississippi, between 1923 and 1930; Hudson). Stanzas 3 and 4 seem to have borrowed this introduction from another ballad (see: Lord Thomas) and the stanzas are not supported by corroborating versions in the UK:

1. Before the rising of the sun,
One morning early in sweet May,
When the tops of the trees were very green,
And the roots had withered away.

2. Sweet William mounted the milk-white steed,
He proudly led the dappled gray,
He swung his bugles around his neck,
And he went riding away.

3. He rode till he came to fair Eleanor's gate,
And tingled loudly at the ring,
"Are you sleepin! or not fair Eleanor," he said,
"Are you sleeping or not within?"

4. Fair Eleanor gladly rosed up,
And quickly slipped on her shoes,
And straightway out to her dear Sweet William,
Fair Eleanor she then goes.

5. He helped her up on the milk-white steed,
And proudly rode the dappled gray ,
He swung his bugles around his neck,
And they went riding away.

The 5th stanza ties back into Child B texts. These are either missing UK introductory stanzas or more likely it is an attempt to include missing opening stanzas not found in the UK versions of Child B. The same or similar stanzas are found five versions from Mississippi and Virginia.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 11 May 18 - 02:18 PM

Hi,

I've finished Carpenter and now Greig Duncan for Child 7. Below is first part (50 stanzas) of Bell Robertson's recitation of "Child of Elle" which is an improvement (at least it's easier to read) of Percy's recreation (TY Steve for sending a copy):

* * * *

From an article in Folk-Song of the North East (c.1910) by Gavin Greig of New Deer, first part of Bell Robertson's recitation of "Child of Elle" originally by Percy based on his 1753 MS.

1. On yonder hill a castle stands,   
With walls and towers bedight,
And there does dwell the Child of Elle,
A young and comely knight.

2. The Child of Elle to his garden went,
Stood at his garden pale,
When, lo, he saw fair Emmeline's page
Come tripping down the dale.

3. The Childe of Elle he hied him hence,
I wot he stood na still,
And soon he met fair Emmeline's page
Came climbing up the hill.

4. Now safe thee, safe thee, little foot-page,
And come thou safe and free!
Pray tell me how is thy lady gay,
And what may thy tidings be?

5. My lady she is woe begone,
The tears fa' frae her e'en;
And aye she laments the deadly feud
Between her house and thine.

6. And here she sends thee a silken scarf
Bedewed with mony a tear,
And bides thee sometimes think on her,
Who loved thee so dear.

7. And here she sends thee a gay gold ring,
The last boon thou must have,
And bids thee wear it for her sake,
When she is in her grave.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 May 18 - 04:34 PM

Prior's

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 May 18 - 04:34 PM

No need to check Child it's in prior's headnotes.
'The naming to death'
This superstition is explained in the Fafnisma'l. Sigurd concealed his name, because it was the belief in old times, that a dying man's words had great power, if he cursed his enemy by name.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 May 18 - 04:28 PM

Looked more closely at some versions of Ribold and Guldborg and we do have this curious idea of 'Naming me dead'. Although not necessarily something supernatural per se it could have something to do with an ancient belief. I would imagine Child has something to say on this and he would have certainly have asked Gruntvig about it. So in the Danish at least something more than distraction. I'll check Child's headnotes.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 May 18 - 04:20 PM

Apropos the name calling, are you suggesting some sort of supernatural intervention? All I see is a momentary distraction with disastrous consequences in Danish and Scottish. Of course it would not be out of place for some ballad editor to put a supernatural spin on it.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 18 - 12:47 PM

This lone US version is from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/H, pp. 06768-06769. It's so close to Scott's printed version (Sharpe, 1802) that it's possibly taken from it and reworded.

Douglas Tragedy- sung by Viola Cook of Whitesburg, Kentucky c. 1938

1   "Rise up, rise up, Lord Douglas," she said
"And put on your armor so bright.
Let it never be said that a daughter of mine
Was married to a lord by night[1]."

2    "Rise up, rise up, my seven bold sons,
And put on your armour so bright,
And take better care of your youngest sister,
For your eldest's was wed last night."

3    He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
And himself on a dapple grey,
With a bugled horn hung down by his side,
And lightly they rode away.

4    Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
And there he spied her seven brothers bold,
Come riding over the lea.

5   "Light down, light down, Lady Margaret," he said,
"And hold my steed in your hand,
Until that again your seven brethren bold,
And your father, I make a stand."

6    She held his steed in her milk-white hand,
And never shed one tear,
Until that she saw her seven brothers fall,
And her father, who loved her so dear.

7   "O hold your hand, Lord William," she said,
"For your strokes they are wonderous strong;
True lovers I can get many a one,
But a father I can never get no more."

8   O she's took out her handkerchief,
It was o the holland satin fine,
And soon she had bandaged her father's bloody wounds,
That were redder than the wine.

9   "O choose, O choose, Lady Margaret," he said,
"O whether will you go or bide?"
"I'll go, I'll go, Lord William," she said,
"For you have left me no other guide.'

10    He lifted her on a milk-white steed,
And himself on a dapple grey,
With a bugled horn hung down by his side,
And slowly they both rode away.

11    O they rode, and they rode,
And by the light of the moon,
Until they come to yon clear water,
And there they lighted down.

12    They lighted down to take a drink
Of the spring that run so clear,
And down the stream run his good heart's blood,
And very strong she begin to fear.

13 "Hold up, hold up, Lord William," she said,
"For I fear that you are slain."
"That is nothing but the shadow of my scarlet cloak,
That shines in the water so plain.'

14    O they rode, and they rode,
And by the light of the moon,
Until they come to his mother's hut door,
And there they lighted down.

15   "Get up, get up, lady mother," he says,
"Get up, and let me in.
Get up, get up, lady mother,' he says,
"For this night my fair lady I've win."

16   "O make my bed, lady mother,' he says,
"O make it wide and deep,
And lay Lady Margret close at my back,
And the sounder I will sleep.'

17    Lord William was dead long before midnight,
Lady Margaret long before day,
And all truelovers that go together,
May they have more luck than they.

18    Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirk,
Lady Margaret in Mary's quire;
Out of the lady's grave grew a bonny red rose,
And out of the knight's a briar.

19    And they climbed and entwined, and they climbed and entwined,
Until they could not climb any higher;
The world might come from the east and the west
And see they were two true lovers.

20    And by and by rode the Black Douglas,
And lo but he was rough,
For he pulled up the bonny briar,
And flung it to St. Mary's Loch.

1. This is sim. to Scott's version-- usually it's "lord or knight."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 18 - 11:57 AM

Hi,

Two stanzas with music; James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/6/5/B, p. 09622

Douglas Tragedy- sung by Mrs. Isabella Reed of Port Gordon, c. 1931

"Hold on, hold on," Lord William," she cried,
"For your strokes is so wondrous sair,
It's sweethearts I got many's the one,
But a father I'll never get mair."

He mounted her on his milk-white steed,
Himself on his dapple grey,
His sword and his bugle horn hanging down by his side,
And straight they both rode away.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 18 - 11:41 AM

Hi,

Single stanza with music;   James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/F, p. 08086

Douglas Tragedy- sung by Mrs. Lyall, Lyne of Skene, Aberdeenshire, c. 1931

On they rode, and on they rode,
Twas all by the light of the moon,
Until they came to his mother's ha' door,
An' there they both lighted down.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 18 - 11:34 AM

Hi,

Two end stanzas with music: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/15, Disc Side 015, 02:58

Douglas Tragedy- sung by Jessie Davidson of Willow Cottage, Tugnet, Speybay, Scotland c. 1931.

Lord William was buried in St. Mary's choir,
Lady Margaret in Shrewbury choir,
On Lady Margaret's breist grew a red, red rose,
And on Lord William's a briar.

They twa met and they twa plat,
Sae fain as they would be near,
That all true lovers that come this way,
They were twa true lovers dear,
They were twa true lovers dear.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 18 - 10:57 AM

Hi,

Single stanza with music: AFC 1972/001, MS p. 08081.
James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/E, p. 08081

The Douglas Tragedy- sung by Miss Elizabeth Craig of Woodtown Cottage, Birkenhills, by Turriff, Scotland.

Sir William he died in the middle o' the night,
Lady Margaret she died on the morrow,
Sir William he died of pure true love,
Lady Margaret she died of sorrow.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 18 - 10:45 AM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/G, pp. 06762-06763, inconsistent dialect.

The Douglas Tragedy- sung by John Riddoch of Oyne, Aberdeenshire about 1931. Collected by James Madison Carpenter.

1. "Rise up, rise up, Lord Douglas," she cried
An' put on your armour so bright,
An' better take care of your youngest sister,
For the eldest's away last night."

2. "Rise up, rise up, ye seven sons so bold,
Put on your armour so bright,
An' better take care of your youngest sister,
For the eldest's away last night."

3. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
Twas then he saw her seven brothers bold,
Come riding over the lea.

4. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
Himsel on a dapple grey,
With a bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
So slowly they baith rode away.

5. They rode on, an' farther on,
It was all by the light of the moon,
Until they came to a clear winding stream,
It wis there they baith lichted doon.


6. "Licht doon, licht doon, Lady Margaret," he cried,
"An' tak my steed in yer hand,
Till I go fight wi your seven brothers bold,
An' your father, I'll make for to stand."

7. She took his steed in her milk-white hand,
And she never did shed one tear,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
And her father fighting severe.

8. "O hold ye, O hold ye," Lord William," she cried,
"For your strokes are wondrous sore,
Lovers I may get many's the one,
But a father I will find no more."

9. Then he bent doon to quench his thirst,
An' drink o' the water so clear,
Twas then that she spied his heart's blood run doon,
Twas then she began to fear.

10. "Hold up, hold up, Lord William," she cried,
"Hold up, ere ye be dead,
"Tis naught, tis naught, Lady Margaret" he said,
"But the shining of my coat so red."

11. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
An' himself on his dapple grey,
With a bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly's they baith rode away.

12. They rode on, and farther on,
Twas all by the light of the moon,
Until they came to his mother's hall door,
It was there that they baith lichted doon.

13. "Rise up, rise up, my mother dear
Rise up an' lat me in.
This night through stress an blood, I fear
"My lady I have won."

14. "O mother dear go mak my bed;
"Mak it baith lang, saft an deep,
And lay Lady Margaret along my side,
That the sounder we may sleep."

15. Lord William died in the middle of the night,
Lady Margaret died on the morrow,
[Lord William died for his ain true love],
Lady Margaret died of sorrow.

17. They buried them baith in St. Mary's church yard,
Right in the middle of the square,
Out of the lady's grave there grew a bonnie rose,
While out of the knight's grew a briar.

18. They twa met an' they twa plett,
Growing in beauty together,
. . .
. . . .

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 18 - 09:40 AM

Hi,

This is a fragment from Alexander Campbell's son: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/201, Disc Side 195, 00:1

The Douglas Tragedy- two stanza fragment with music sung by Hector Campbell, b. 1903 (son of Alexander B. Campbell) of Ythan Wells, Aberdeenshire about 1932. Collected by James Madison Carpenter.

"Light doon, light doon, Lady Margaret," he said,
"Hold my steed in yer hand,
Until I face your seven brothers bold,
And make your father to stand."

* * * *

"O choose, then choose, Lady Margaret," he said,
"It's ye either go or it's bide.
"O I'm gaun wi' you Lord William," she said,
"For you've left me no other guide."

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 18 - 09:22 AM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/G, pp. 06748-06749, inconsistent dialogue.

The Douglas Tragedy- sung by Alexander B. Campbell (1883- 1954) of Ythan Wells, Aberdeenshire in 1932. Collected by James Madison Carpenter.

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold,
Stand up to your armour so bright,
Let it never be said a sister o yours,
Was married to a lord or a knight."

2. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could spy,
And there he spied her seven brothers bold,
And her father still drawing nigh.

3. "Come doon, come doon, Lady Margaret," he said,
"Hold my steed in your milk white hand,
Till I turn back your seven brothers bold,
And make your father to stand."

4. She held his steed by the bridal rein,
Without ever shedding a tear,
Until that she saw her seven brothers fall,
And her father was fighting severe.

5. "Hold off, hold off," Lord William," she said,
"Your strokes are wondrous sair,
Sweethearts I will get many a one,
But a father I'll never get mair."

6. "Choose, then choose, Lady Margaret," he said,
"It's either to go or to bide.
"O maun gang wi' you Lord William," she said,
"Since ye've left me nae other guide."

7. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
An' himsel on a dapple grey,
His sword and his bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
And so slowly they both rode away.

8. They rode on, and still further on,
It was all by the light of the moon,
Until that they came to yon clear running stream,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

9. Twas there they both lighted doon for to drink,
O' the water so cool and so clear,
Twas there she spied the reid drops o blood,
Fall into the water so clear.

10. "I'm afraid, I'm afraid, Lord William," she said,
"I'm afraid that ye've been slain,
"It's nothing but my scarlet cloak,
That shines in the river so plain."

11. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
And himsel on the dapple grey,
His sword and his bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
And so slowly they both rode away.

12. They rode on, and still further on,
It was all by the light of the moon,
Until that they came to his mother's ha' door,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

13. "Get up, get up, lady mother," he said
"Get up and let me in.
"Get up, get up, lady mother," he said,
'For this nicht mt fair lady I've won."

14. "O mak my bed, lady mother," he said
"O mak it braid and deep,
And ye'll lay Lady Margaret at my back,
And the sounder we may sleep."

15. Lord William he died in the middle o' the nicht,
Lady Margaret she died on the morrow,
Lord William died for his true love's sake,
Lady Margaret died of sorrow.

16. Lord William was buried in the green church yard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's choir,
Out o' Lord William there grew a reid rose,
And out o' Lady Margaret a briar.

17. They grew and grew and still further grew,
Till they reached one another there,
And now they are twined in a true lover's knot,
For all true lovers to admire.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 18 - 10:28 PM

Hi,
   
From the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/G, p. 06757. A short version in fairly consistent dialect. I've filled in last two lines missing in stanza ten, the opening is unique.

The Douglas Tragedy- sung by William Mackey of Logie Lodge, Lonmay, Aberdeenshire in 1932. Collected by James Madison Carpenter.

1. "Stand up, stand up, my seven sons so bold,
An' stand to your armour so clear,
An' take better care of your youngest sister,
For your eldest's awa' I fear."

2. He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
An' himsel on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hingin doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rode away.

3. "Hold off, hold off," Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes are wondrous sore,
For sweethearts I'll get monny a ane,
But a father I'll never get more."

4. "O choose, O choose, Lady Margaret," he says,
"Whether to go or to bide.
"O I maun go along wi' you,
"For you've left me no other guide."

5. They rode on, an' on they rode,
It wis a' by the licht o' the moon,
Until they came to yon wan water,
It wis there they baith lichted doon.

6. They lichted doon to tak a drink,
Frae the water that rinnin sae clear,
Twas there that she sa' his heart's blood rin doon,
Twas there she began for to fear.

7. "Stand off, stand off, Lord William," she cries,
"I afraid that ye are slain,
"It's only the color of my reid scarlet cloak,
Goin' trinklin' doon the stream."

8. He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
An' himsel on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hingin' down by his side,
An' so slowly's they baith rode away.

9. "Ye'll mak my bed baith lang an' wide,
An' mak it soft and deep,
An' lay my truelove my side,
That the sooner I may sleep."

10. Lord William died in the middle o' the nicht,
Lady Margaret died on the morrow,
[Lord William died for his ain true love,
Lady Margaret died of sorrow.]

11. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's church,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's choir,
An' oot o' Lord William's breist there sprung a reid rose,
An' oot o Lady Margaret's a sweet briar.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 18 - 09:45 PM

Hi,

This is a long version from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/D, pp. 04647-04649 with the 'Black Douglas' ending. Arbitrary dialect.

The Douglas Tragedy- sung by Miss Jean Esselmont of Central Square, Cuminestown, Aberdeenshire in 1931. Collected by James Madison Carpenter.

1. "Arise, arise, my seven brothers bold,
An' gird on your armour so bright,
An' better take care of your youngest sister,
Your eldest's away last night."

2. "Arise, arise, my seven brothers bold,
An' gird on your armour so bright,
Let it never be said that a sister of yours
Was married to a lord in the night[1]."

3. He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
An' himsel on a dapple grey,
The night was bright, the moon shone bright,
And merrily they both rode away.

4. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
An' there he spied her father an' her seven brothers bold,
Come riding over the lea.

5. "Licht doon, licht doon, Lady Margaret," he says,
"Take my steed by the rein,
I'll go fight your seven brethren bold,
And your father, I'll make for to stand."

6. She held his horse in her milk-white hand,
And never shed a tear,
Until that she sa' her seven brothers bold,
And her father was fighting so dear.

7. "Hold off, hold off," Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes are wondrous sore,
Sweethearts I can get many a one,
But a father I'll never get more."

8. "O choose, Lady Margaret, choose," said he,
"Whether ye will go or bide.
"I'll go with you Lord William," she cried,
"Since ye've left me no other guide."

9. He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
Himsel on a dapple grey,
An' with his bugle horn hanging down by his side,
An' so slowly they both rode away.

10. They rode on, an' farther on,
An' twas all by the light of the moon,
Till they came to yon clear stream,
And twas there they both lichted doon.

11. They both lichted doon to take a drink,
Of the water that ran so clear,
Twas there that she saw Lord William's heart's blood to flow,
Twas then she begun for to fear.

12. "Hold up, hold up, Lord William," she cried,
"For I fear that you've been slain,
"O no," he cried, "'Tis my reid scarlet cloak,
That shines in the water so plain."

13. He's mounted her on her milk-white steed,
An' himsel on the dapple grey,
With his bugle horn hanging down by his side,
An' so slowly's they both rode away.

14. It's they rode on, and on they rode,
Twas all by the light of the moon,
Until they came to his mother's hall door,
And twas there they both lichted doon.

15. "Ye'll mak my bed, mother," he says
"Ye'll mak it tae me fu' soon,
And lay Lady Margaret close to my back,
That I may sleep fu' soon."

16. Lord William died in the middle of the night,
Lady Margaret died on the morrow,
Lord William died for his ain true love,
Lady Margaret died of sorrow.

17. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's Kirk yaird,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's choir,
On Lady Margaret's breist grew a reid, reid rose,
An' on Lord William's a briar.

18. They grew and they grew to the very church top,
Till they could not grow any higher,
So they twined themselves about in a true lover's knot,
For true lovers to admire.

19. They twa met and they twa plett,
An' sae fain's they would be near,
That all the wardle it micht ken,
That they were twa lovers dear.

20. Up then cam the Black Douglas,
An' o but he wis roch [rough],
He pulled oot the bonnie, bonnie briar
An' flung't in St. Mary's Loch.
________________________

1. Usually "lord or a knight"

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 18 - 07:35 PM

Hi,

It's the same scene in Ribolt and Guldborg [from Danish Kaempe Viser p. 750]:

"Hald, hald, my Ribolt, dearest mine,
Now belt thy brand, for it's mair nor time.

"My youngest brither ye spare, O spare
To my mither the dowy news to bear;

"To tell o' the dead in this sad stour—
O wae, that ever she dochter bure!"

Whan Ribolt's name she nam'd that stound,
'Twas then that he gat his deadly wound.

However, in Lord Douglas no mention of the wound is made. William is just wounded but says nothing and even at the clear water denies the wound-- that stanza at the clear water (where he says the red/blood in the water is "nothing but the shadow of my scarlet cloak") is the only common stanza in Earl Brand and Lord Douglas.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 18 - 07:21 PM

TY Steve,

I've been wondering about the "name-calling" found in the Scandinavian versions. The maid is warned not to call out her lover's name in battle. When she does he is stabbed with the fatal blow.

Curiously this happens in "Lord Douglas," although no mention of it is made by Child nor does Lord William instruct her. Stanza 7 is:

7    'O hold your hand, Lord William!' she said,
'For your strokes they are wondrous sair;

Then he receives a mysterious fatal wound (unmentioned) which she sees when they go to the clear water.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 18 - 07:02 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/G, pp. 06750-06751
Has the "blue guilded horn" of print version. Almost no dialect, then suddenly -- dialect for words previously given without it (see stanza 8, for example).

The Douglas Tragedy- sung by Mrs Annie Kidd of Ivy Cottage, Glen Ythen, Rothienorman, Aberdeenshire. Collected by James Madison Carpenter, c. 1930.

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold,
Stand up to your armour so bright,
May it never be said of your dear sister,
To be married to a [lord or] knight."

2. "Stand up, stand up, lady Margaret," he said,
"And hold my steed in your hand,
Or I be revenged of your seven brethren bold
And your father put to a stand."

3. "Hold off, hold off," Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes are wondrous sore,
I may get a sweetheart and many a one,
But I'll never get a father any more."

4. She has stood and longer stood,
And many was the tear shed she,
Until he saw her seven brothers slain,
An her father, who she loved so dear.

5. "Will you go with me, Lady Margaret?" he said
Will you go with me or bide?"
"I'll go with you, Lord William," she said
Since you have left me no other guide."

6. He has mounted her on a milk-white steed,
Himsel on a dappled grey,
With his blue guilded [bugle] horn hanging doon by his side,
As so slowly as they rode away.

7. They rode on, and farther on,
It was a' by the light o' the moon,
Until they came to a clear water,
And there they lighted doon.

8. They lighted doon to take a drink,
Of the water that ran so clear,
When doon the stream ran her sweetheart's blood,
Then sair, sair did she fear."

9. "Hold up, hold up, Lord William," she cried,
"I'm afraid that you are slain,
"It's but the shadow of my scarlet red cloak,
That shines in the water so clear."

10. They rode on, and farther on,
Twas yet by the light o' the moon,
Until they came to his mother boor [bow'r] door,
And there they lighted doon.

11. "Oh mother dear will you make my bed,
you will make it soft and fine,
And lay my lady down by my side,
That we may sleep full soon."

12. Lord William was dead or [e're] the middle of the night,
Lady Margaret long before morrow,
Lord William died of his wounds,
Lady Margaret died of sorrow.

13. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirk [yard],
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's square,
And out of her bosom grew a red rose,
And out of her lover's a briar.

14. They grew and they grew to the very church top,
Till they could not grow any higher,
So they twined themselves about in a true lover's knot,
For true lovers to admire.

15. So this twa met and this twa plait,
And so fain as they would have been near,
So all you truelovers who come this way,
May know they were twa lovers dear.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 May 18 - 12:42 PM

I think the rationale for making it his A version is simply the couplet form which generally speaking and in other cases tends to be older, or perceived as older, than the quatrain format. The same would appear to apply to Scandinavian ballads. I don't think how a variant had continued in tradition had any relevance to Child's ordering of them. He seems to have used different criteria at different times to his chosen ordering, sometimes what he perceived as the best/fullest copy, often Mrs Brown, came first, but at other times he orders them chronologically in order of when they first appeared.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 18 - 08:14 AM

Hi,

I've organized the early ballads of Child 7 and roughed in some of the headnotes. Clearly there are two ballad types Earl Brand and Lord Douglas, whether they should be separated further is a matter of opinion. If there are any early British versions missing let me know.

* * * *

A. "The Child(Knight) of Ell" ("Sayes 'Christ thee saue, good Child of Ell!") fragment from Percy folio MS acquired c. 1753 (Northumberland) but older.
    a. "The Child of Ell" from "Bishop Percy's Folio Manuscript: Ballads and Romances," Volume 1 by Hales and Furnivall, I, p. 133, 1867. Original MS with notes.
    b. "The Child of Elle" recreation by Percy, "Reliques of Ancient English Poetry," 1765.

B. Earl Brand ("Did ye ever hear o guid Earl o Bran") dated late 1700s (Heber/Leyden c. 1802, Edinburgh)
    a. "Earl o Bran" William Leyden about 1802 probably Edinburgh (MS 22b. in the Abbotsford Collection) Written down by Richard Heber, chorus is missing, Kittredge's A* version, 1.
    b. "Earl Bran," collected by William Laidlaw (b. 1780) of Selkirkshire (farm of Blackhouse) about 1802 for W. Scott from "Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No 22d.
    c1. 'Earl Bran,' Mr. Robert White's papers, c.1818.
    c2. 'Earl Bran,' Mr. Robert White's papers.
    c3. 'The Brave Earl Brand and the King of England's Daughter,' Bell, Ancient Poems, etc., p. 122, 1846.
    c4. Fragmentary verses remembered by Mr. R. White's sister, Mrs. Andrews, of Claremont Place, Newcastle. Published with melody in The Monthly Chronicle of North Country Lore and Legend, Volume 5, see also Stokoe, Northumbrian Minstrelsy, 1882.
    d. "Gude Earl Brand and Auld Carle Hude," the Paisley Magazine, 1828, p. 321, communicated by W. Motherwell.
    e. "Auld Carle Hood, or, Earl Brand." From Hume-Campbell MSS titled “Old Scottish Songs, Collected in the Counties of Berwick, Roxburgh, Selkirk & Peebles." Collected by Sir Hugh Hume-Campbell's father and placed in his library about 1830.

C. The Douglas Tragedy (Lord William and Lady Margaret) ("'Rise up, rise up, now, Lord Douglas,' she says,") late 1700s (chapbook print 1792) titled from Sharpe's 1802 version by Sir Walter Scott- said to have originated in Selkirkshire at the farm of Blackhouse.
    a1. "Lord Douglas' Tragedy, To which are added, the shepherd's courtship the blythsome bridal; or the lass wi' the gouden hair. The farewell." Publisher: [Newcastle upon Tyne?]: Licensed and entered, 1792. Child I
    a2. "Three songs." Innocent mirth. Lord Douglas' [sic] tragedy The banks of Doon; [Edinburgh]: J. Morren, printer, Edinburgh, [1800]
    b. "The Douglas Tragedy," collected from nursery maid by C.K. Sharpe in 1802. Published in Scott's Minstrelsy, III, 246, ed. 1803. Child B
    c. "Earl Douglas," from the recitation of Mrs Notman of Renfrewshire(?) about 1826. From Motherwell's MS., p. 502; Child C.
    d. "Lady Margaret." unknown informant probably from Edinburgh area, from Kinloch MSS, I, 327, c. 1827.
    e. "The Douglas Tragedy," six stanzas from tradition in Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 180, 1827.
    f. "Lord Thomas and Ladie Margaret." Sung by Rachel Rodgers of Wallace Street, Ayr, c.1827. Collected by Thomas MacQueen. From "Andrew Crawfurd's collection of ballads and songs" by Andrew Crawfurd, E.B. Lyle - 1975.
    g. "Rise Ye Up," sung by Mrs. Lee Stephens (White Rock, Missouri) Oct. 5, 1928 dating back through her family to circa 1828. From Ozark Folksongs, Randolph- Volume I Ballads, from the section British Ballads and Songs.
    h. "Lady Margaret," Written By William A Larkins on April the 25th, 1868. From: The Old Album of William A. Larkin by Ruth Ann Musick; The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 60, No. 237 (Jul. - Sep., 1947), pp. 201-251.

* * * *

[The ballads of Child 7 are about the an "earl" or a "lord or knight" and a "maid" whose family tries to prevent their elopement with tragic consequences. As the two lovers ride away on horses, they are pursued by the maid's father and seven brothers (Lord Douglas) or by her father and fifteen men (Earl Brand). After they stop and she dismounts holding his horse, a heroic battle ensues as her vastly outnumbered lover slays the pursuers. However, her lover is mortally wounded (in Child A he's stabbed in the back by Carl Hood; in B, he's received an unidentified blow during battle). The lovers ride off to a stream where she discovers his fatal wound when she sees blood in the clear water. They ride to his mother's house where he dies and she dies shortly thereafter of sorrow. Child B has the "rose-briar" ending.

The earliest fragment is my A (Child's F), "The Child of Ell" which is part of the Percy Folio, a group of Northumbrian manuscripts acquired by Bishop Percy about 1753. The MS, published by Hales and Furnivall in 1867, was missing the next page so all that remains are the first 11 stanzas (some partial stanzas) of this early related version. Here's the text from Percy's MS., p. 57; ed. Hales and Furnivall, I, p. 133, 1867:

The Child of Ell (c.1753 but older)

1 . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . .
Sayes 'Christ thee saue, good Child of Ell!
Christ saue thee and thy steede!

2 'My father sayes he will [eat] noe meate,
Nor his drinke shall doe him noe good.
Till he haue slaine the Child of Ell,
And haue seene his harts blood.'

3 'I wold I were in my sadle sett,
And a mile out of the towne;
I did not care for your father
And all his merry men!

4 'I wold I were in my sadle sett,
And a little space him froe;
I did not care for your father
And all that long him to!

5 He leaned ore his saddle bow
To kisse this lady good;
The teares that went them two betweene
Were blend water and blood.

6 He sett himselfe on one good steed,
This lady on a palfray,
And sett his litle horne to his month,
And roundlie he rode away.

7 He had not ridden past a mile,
A mile out of the towne,
. . . . .
. . . . .

8 Her father was readye with her seuen brether,
He said, 'Sett thou my daughter downe!
For ill beseemes thee, thou false churles sonne,
To carry her forth of this towne!'

9 'But lowd thou lyest, Sir Iohn the knight,
Thou now doest lye of me;
A knight me gott, and a lady me bore;
Soe neuer did none by thee.

10 'But light now done, my lady gay,
Light downe and hold my horsse,
Whilest I and your father and your brether
Doe play vs at this crosse.

11 'But light now downe, my owne trew loue,
And meeklye hold my steede,
Whilest your father [and your seuen brether] bold
. . . . .

In 1765 Percy published his recreation of the ballad "The Child of Elle" in his Reliques where he commented[]: "The Child of Elle is given from a fragment in the Editor's folio MS: which tho- extremely defective and mutilated, appeared to show so much merit, that it excited a strong desire to attempt a completion of the story. The Reader will easily discover the supplemental stanzas by their inferiority, and at the same time be inclined to pardon it, when he considers how difficult it must be to imitate the affecting simplicity and artless beauties of the original."

Percy's 50-stanza recreation is given in full on a page attached to this page, British Versions (see "Child of Ell" right-hand column). Foreign analogues of a similar archaic age and theme were listed by Child who included the two important parallel Scandinavian ballads, "Ribold and Guldborg," (mid 1600s) and "Hildebrand and Hilde." Child's excellent, detailed notes on the foreign analogues were aided by previous studies by Child's mentor, Sven Grundvig[3].

Child gives us two main ballad types A, "Earl Brand" and B, "Lord Douglas" (also "Douglas Tragedy," or, "Lord William and Lady Margaret") which are the two modern[1] ballads that are grouped under his No. 7 titled "Earl Brand." The problem is: they are different tragic ballads with similar themes and one stanza held in common. In Sir Walter Scott's excellent notes on the Douglas tragedy in his Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, Volume 3(1803), He calls the "Earl Brand" an "analogous recitation[4]" and gives the stanza held in common:

"Gude Earl Brand I see blood"
"It's but the shade o' my scarlet robe."

Scott was aware of both Earl Brand ballad versions[5] that his friends William Laidlaw and John Leyden (via Richard Hebner) had acquired independently in preparation for Scott's "Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border" series (three volumes 1802-1803, one volume 1807). For some reason Child failed to acknowledge Scott's notes in volume 3 of his Minstrelsy in Child's Volume I (1882) of his English and Scottish Popular Ballads, so Child attributed the first extant version of Earl Brand to Robert Bell (1857) when clearly Scott knew the ballad by 1803. Child began his headnotes with, " 'Earl Brand,' first given to the world by Mr. Robert Bell in 1857, has preserved most of the incidents of a very ancient story with a faithfulness unequalled by any ballad that has been recovered from English oral tradition." In fairness to Child, Scott did not quote the whole text of Earl Brand, he only gave the stanza held in common. Later in volume 2 of ESPB's "Additions and Corrections," Child retracts the attribution to Bell and says: "This ballad was, therefore, not first given to the world by Mr. Robert Bell, in 1857, but nearly thirty years earlier by Motherwell, in the single volume of the Paisley Magazine, a now somewhat scarce book."

Neither Bell nor Motherwell were the earliest sources, both Laidlaw's and Leyden's versions predated Bell's and Motherwell's. The Laidlaw and Leyden ballads became part of the Abbotsford Collection which were the ballads collected for Sir Walter's Minstrelsy.

In Kittredge's 1904 edition of ESPB which he edited with Sergeant, he lists Leyden's MS as A* which gives it priority as the earliest and perhaps best example of Earl Brand. After John Leyden (September 8, 1775 – August 28, 1811) moved to Edinburgh in 1790 he became an acquaintance of Dr. Robert Anderson (1794), editor of The British Poets, and of The Literary Magazine and then to Dr. Alexander Murray, who helped Leyden with his study of Eastern languages. Anderson also introduced Leyden to Richard Heber, who was helping Scott collected ballads for his Minstrelsy. A bio on Leyden from an 1890 edition of The Encyclopedia Britannica reports:

Leyden was admirably fitted for helping in this kind of work, for he was a borderer himself, and an enthusiastic lover of old ballads and folklore. Scott tells how, on one occasion, Leyden walked 40 miles to get the last two verses of a ballad, and returned at midnight, singing it all the way with his loud, harsh voice, to the wonder and consternation of the poet and his household.

Leyden's version titled "Earl o' Bran," which I've dated 1802 (MS 22b. in the Abbotsford Collection) was down written by Richard Heber who commented[], "I have not written the Chorus, but Mr Leyden, having it by him, knows how to insert it." The chorus was never inserted and remains unknown. Here's Leyden's version, from an unknown source, Edinburgh:

Earl o' Bran

1   Did ye ever hear o guid Earl o Bran
An the queen's daughter o the southlan?

2   She was na fifteen years o age
Till she came to the Earl's bed-side.

3   'O guid Earl o Bran, I fain wad see
My grey hounds run over the lea.'

4   'O kind lady, I have no steeds but one,
But ye shall ride, an I shall run.'

5   'O guid Earl o Bran, but I have twa,
An ye shall hae yere wael o those.'

6   The're ovr moss an the're over muir,
An they saw neither rich nor poor.

7   Till they came to ald Carl Hood,
He's ay for ill, but he's never for good.

8   'O guid Earl o Bran, if ye loe me,
Kill Carl Hood an gar him die.'

9   'O kind lady, we had better spare;
I never killd ane that wore grey hair.

10   'We'll gie him a penny-fie an let him gae,
An then he'll carry nae tiddings away.'

11   'Where hae been riding this lang simmer-day?
Or where hae stolen this lady away?'

12   'O I hae not riden this lang simmer-day,
Nor hae I stolen this lady away.

13   'For she is my sick sister
I got at the Wamshester.'

14   If she were sick an like to die,
She wad na be wearing the gold sae high.'

15   Ald Carl Hood is over the know,
Where they rode one mile, he ran four.

16   Till he came to her mother's yetts,
An I wat he rapped rudely at.

17   'Where is the lady o this ha?'
'She's out wie her maidens, playing at the ba.'

18   'O na! fy na!
For I met her fifteen miles awa.

19   'She's over moss, an she's over muir,
An a' to be the Earl o Bran's whore.'

20   Some rode wie sticks, an some wie rungs,
An a' to get the Earl o Bran slain.

21   That lady lookd over her left shoudder-bane:
'O guid Earl o Bran, we'll a' be taen!
For yond'r a' my father's men.

22   'But if ye'll take my claiths, I'll take thine,
An I'll fight a' my father's men.'

23   'It's no the custom in our land
For ladies to fight an knights to stand.

24   'If they come on me ane by ane,
I'll smash them a' doun bane by bane.

25   'If they come on me ane and a',
Ye soon will see my body fa.'

26   He has luppen from his steed,
An he has gein her that to had.

27   An bad her never change her cheer
Untill she saw his body bleed.

28   They came on him ane by ane,
An he smashed them doun a' bane by bane.

29   He sat him doun on the green grass,
For I wat a wearit man he was.

30   But ald Carl Hood came him behind,
An I wat he gae him a deadly wound.

31   He's awa to his lady then,
He kissed her, and set her on her steed again.

32   He rode whistlin out the way.
An a' to hearten his lady gay.

33   'Till he came to the water-flood:
'O guid Earl o Bran, I see blood!'

34   'O it is but my scarlet hood,
That shines upon the water-flood.'

35   They came on 'till his mother's yett,
An I wat he rappit poorly at.

36   His mother she 's come to the door:
'O son, ye 've gotten yere dead wie an English whore!'

37   'She was never a whore to me;
Sae let my brother her husband be.'

38   Sae ald Carl Hood was not the dead o ane,
But he was the dead o hale seeventeen.

At the end of William Laidlaw's fragmented 21-stanza version Scott had written at the head, "Earl Bran, another copy." Interesting is the second editor's footnote of Scott's Minstrelsy, volume 3: "At the time when Sir Walter Scott was collecting the materials for this work, the farm of Blackhouse was tenanted by the father of his attached friend, and in latter days factor (or land-steward), Mr. William Laidlaw. James Hogg was shepherd on the same farm, and in the course of one of his exploring rides up the glen of Yarrow, Sir Walter made acquaintance with young Laidlaw and the 'Mountain Bard,' who both thenceforth laboured with congenial zeal in behalf of his undertaking."

This was Scott's comment about "Lord Douglas": "Many copies of this ballad are current among the vulgar, but chiefly in a state of great corruption; especially such as have been committed to the press in the shape of penny pamphlets. One of these is now before me, which, among many others, has the ridiculous error of 'blue gilded horn,' for 'bugelet horn.' The copy, principally used in this edition of the ballad, was supplied by Mr. Sharpe."

In a letter to Scott, dated 5th August 1802, Charles Kirkpatric Sharpe wrote: 'The Douglas Tragedy was taught me by a nurserymaid, and was so great a favourite, that I committed it to paper as soon as I was able to write' (Correspondence, I. 135). Despite Scott's comments about the cheap print version, except for the last stanza Sharpe's version is not much different than the print version (see also Child I). The end of stanza 1 is a corruption of "a lord or a knight." Here's Sharpe's text:

Douglas Tragedy

1    'Rise up, rise up, now, Lord Douglas,' she says,
'And put on your armour so bright;
Let it never be said that a daughter of thine
Was married to a lord under night.

2    'Rise up, rise up, my seven bold sons,
And put on your armour so bright,
And take better care of your youngest sister,
For your eldest's awa the last night.'

3    He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
And himself on a dapple grey,
With a bugelet horn hung down by his side,
And lightly they rode away.

4    Lord William lookit oer his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
And there he spy'd her seven brethren bold,
Come riding over the lee.

5    'Light down, light down, Lady Margret,' he said,
'And hold my steed in your hand,
Until that against your seven brethren bold,
And your father, I mak a stand.'

6    She held his steed in her milk-white hand,
And never shed one tear,
Until that she saw her seven brethren fa,
And her father hard fighting, who lovd her so dear.

7    'O hold your hand, Lord William!' she said,
'For your strokes they are wondrous sair;
True lovers I can get many a ane,
But a father I can never get mair.'

8    O she's taen out her handkerchief,
It was o the holland sae fine,
And aye she dighted her father's bloody wounds,
That were redder than the wine.

9    'O chuse, O chuse, Lady Margret,' he said,
'O whether will ye gang or bide?'
'I'll gang, I'll gang, Lord William,' she said,
'For ye have left me no other guide.'

10    He's lifted her on a milk-white steed,
And himself on a dapple grey,
With a bugelet horn hung down by his side,
And slowly they baith rade away.

11    O they rade on, and on they rade,
And a' by the light of the moon,
Until they came to yon wan water,
And there they lighted down.

12    They lighted down to tak a drink
Of the spring that ran sae clear,
And down the stream ran his gude heart's blood,
And sair she gan to fear.

13    'Hold up, hold up, Lord William,' she says,
'For I fear that you are slain;'
'Tis naething but the shadow of my scarlet cloak,
That shines in the water sae plain.'

14    O they rade on, and on they rade,
And a' by the light of the moon,
Until they cam to his mother's ha door,
And there they lighted down.

15    'Get up, get up, lady mother,' he says,
'Get up, and let me in!
Get up, get up, lady mother,' he says,
'For this night my fair lady I've win.

16    'O mak my bed, lady mother,' he says,
'O mak it braid and deep,
And lay Lady Margret close at my back,
And the sounder I will sleep.'

17    Lord William was dead lang ere midnight,
Lady Margret lang ere day,
And all true lovers that go thegither,
May they have mair luck than they!

18    Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirk,
Lady Margret in Mary's quire;
Out o the lady's grave grew a bonny red rose,
And out o the knight's a briar.

19    And they twa met, and they twa plat,
And fain they wad be near;
And a' the warld might ken right weel
They were twa lovers dear.

20    But bye and rade the Black Douglas,
And wow but he was rough!
For he pulld up the bonny brier,
And flang't in St. Mary's Loch.

A comparison of Scott's "Lord Douglas" to "Earl Brand" shows that although they are ballads with the "Maid's family tries to prevent elopement" theme, the ballads are different. Perhaps the most telling difference is that Earl Brand has a chorus while Lord Douglas, also known as "Lord William and Lady Margaret," does not. Lord Douglas does not have the character Carl Hood who stabs Earl Brand in the back (see also: Braes of Yarrow, where it's one of the brothers) and has the rose briar ending, perhaps acquired from the similar tragic ballads "Fair Margaret and Sweet William" or "Lord Thomas and Fair Annet."

Along with the ballads classified under Child 7, Earl Brand are other similar "Maid's family tries to prevent elopement" ballads. The ballads of Child 7 have two different groups of people trying to prevent the elopement: 1) Earl Brand, is pursue by her father and 15 men while 2) Lord William (Douglas), also Child of Ell, is pursued by the maid's father and seven brothers. Similar themes are found in other ballads including The Bold Soldier (Bold Keeper/Lady and the Dragoon); the Braes o Yarrow (including "Rare Willie") ballads; and "Fair Margaret and Sweet William."

Early texts of the "Maid's family tries to prevent elopement" ballads include The Child of Ell- Child F, from Percy in 1753- but older- and dating back to 1673 is the broadside of the related Bold Soldier (See: 7A The Lady and the Dragoon) ballad, titled, "The Bold Keeper."

Child assigns "Earl Brand" as his A version with his version 7Aa taken from Mr. Robert White's papers. Both 7Aa and 7Ab are from Mr. Robert White's papers. Child gives the changes from Aa for Ab in his end notes. Ac is given in full by Robert Bell with some changes. Ad is a fragment from Mrs. Andrews, Mr. White's sister and only one change and the refrain are given-- so Ad will be impossible to reconstruct without the MS. The rational for making Earl Brand his A version appears to be his comparison with the older Danish ballads represented by "Ribold and Guldborg." The problem with making Earl Brand Child's A version is that there are only 5 traditional versions and the ballad did not continue past the mid-1800s, whereas the "Lord Douglas" ballad was popular and remained popular (as evidence see both Greig/Duncan Collection and Carpenter Collection) and was brought to America where it was collected in Maritime Canada, New England and the Appalachians.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:57 PM

Willie came over the main wide ocean
And Willie came over the sea,
And Willie came to my father’s household,
Came a courting with me, me, me,
Came a courting with me.

He followed me up, he followed me down,
He followed me far and near;
I had no time to tell him to go,
No time to tell him to stay, etc.

“Go get half of your father’s estate (gold?)
And part of your mother’s fee,
And two of your father’s best horses,
And married we will be.”

She got half of her father’s estate
And part of her mother’s fee
And marched right up to the barn door,
Took choice of thirty and three.

She mounted on a snow-white beast
And Willie the dapple grey,
And they rode till they came to the salt-water sea
At the length of a long summer day.

“Go light you down, my pretty Polly,
Go light you down,” said he
For six kind daughters I’ve drownded here, (king’s)
And the seventh you will be.

Go pull off that silken dress,” he said,
“That is made of silk so fine,
For it is too fine and costly a thing
To lie and rot in the sea.”

“Go turn your face around,” I said,
“And turn your back on me.
Think what shame and scandal would be
A naked woman to see.”

He turned himself all round and about
And turned his back on me.
I grabbed him around the long, slim waist
And tossed him into the sea.

“Reach down, reach down your hands for me,
Reach down your hands,” cried he.
“For six kind daughters I’ve drownded here,
But the seventh you won’t be.”

“Lie there, lie there, you cruel-hearted fellow,
Lie there in place of me,
For six kind daughters you’ve drownded here
And the seventh I won’t be.”

She mounted on the snow-white beast
And leading the dapple grey,
She came back to her father’s house
Two long hours before it was day.

“Where have you been, my pretty Polly,
Where have you been?” said he.
“I’ve been with the richest man in the state
And drownded him in the sea.”

I quite like this version, no silly parrot and tells the story succinctly.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:33 PM

Thanks, Jon

I have taken the liberty of rationalising a few parts to improve the sense and scansion, but I've tried to keep it to a minimum. Like some of the NC versions Richie has posted it follows the 'Lord Lovel' burlesque pattern so each stanza needs the triple on the last word and repeat of last line as in st 1. Most of the NC versions seem to only double the last word but the effect is similar.

I'll type it up in Word first as I don't want to risk losing it and having to redo it.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 10:38 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/G, pp. 06748-06749. Very few Scot word but there are some, inconsistent dialect.

The Douglas Tragedy - as sung by Alexander Campbell of Ythan Wells, Aberdeenshire about 1930.

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold
Stand up to your armour so bright,
Let it never be said that a sister o' yours,
Was married to a lord or knight."

2. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could spy,
And there he spied her seven brothers bold,
And her father drawing nigh.

3. "Come doon, come doon, Lady Margaret," he cried,
"Hold my steed in your milk-white hand,
Till I turn back your seven brothers bold
And make your father to stand."

4. She held his steed by the bridal rein,
Without shedding a tear,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An' her father still fighting severe.

5. "Hold off, hold off, Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes they are wondrous sair,
"Sweethearts I will get many a one,
But a father I'll never get mair."

6. "Choose, then choose, Lady Margaret," he said,
It's either to go or to bide."
"O I maun gang wi' you, Lord William
Since ye've left me nae other guide."

7. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
And himself on a dapple grey,
His sword and his bugle hinging doon by his side,
And so slowly they both rode away.

8. They rode on, and still further on,
It was all by the light of the moon,
Until that they came to yon clear running stream,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

9. Twas there that they lichted doon for to drink,
O' the water so cool and so clear,
Twas there that she spied the reid drops o blood,
Fell into the water so clear.

10. "I'm afraid, I'm afraid, Lord William," she said,
"I'm afraid that you've been slain,"
"It's nothing but my scarlet coat,
That shines in the river so plain."

11. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
Himsel on the dapple grey,
With a sword and a bugle hanging doon by his side,
And so slowly both rode away.

12. They rode on and still further on,
It was all by the light o' the moon,
Until that they came to his mother's ha' door,
It was there they lighted doon.

13. "Get up, get up, lady mother," he said
"Get up and let me in,
"Get up, get up, lady mother," he said
"For this nicht my fair lady I've won."

14. "O mak me my bed lady mother,
O mak it braid and deep,
An' lay my Lady Margaret at my back,
And the sounder we may sleep."

15. Lord William he died in the middle o' the nicht,
Lady Margaret she died on the morrow.
Lord William died for his true love's sake,
Lady Margaret died for sorrow.

16. Lord William was buried in the green church yard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's choir,
Out o Lord William there grew a reid rose,
And out o Lady Margaret a briar.

17. They grew and they grew, and still further grew,
Till they reached one another there,
And now they are twined in a true lover's knot,
For all true lovers to admire."
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 10:18 PM

Thanks Lighter,

I have c. 1951 for that date. I don't know what's worst my spelling or my typing-- it's definitely my typing cause my fingers can't keep up. "And here's to you Mrs Robinson-- Jesus loves you more than you will know, wo, wo wo"

Most of the Carpenter versions are long-- I'm still finding small errors in them.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Lighter
Date: 03 May 18 - 05:56 PM

The "Encyclopedia of Arkansas" gives High's dates as "1878 - 1962."

That means his little collection was published in 1951 or '52.

Steve, be my guest.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 04:34 PM

Hi,

Thanks for correction Steve.

Lighter: I have a copy of that Fred High pamphlet (book :) To hear him sing it: http://digitalcollections.uark.edu/cdm/ref/collection/OzarkFolkSong/id/1393/

The title is an Ozark title first collected as "Willie Came over the Ocean" by Miss Hamilton, 1909, from Julia Rickman, one of her pupils in West Plains High School (see: Belden, Ballads and Songs, 1940 version B). That's Child 4, of course.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:57 PM

Richie,
You have 'Robinson' on the website as well.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:31 PM

Richie,
29 April 8.08 you have Robinson for Robertson.

Jon,
Interesting version easily standardised. Shall you do it or one of us, just for clarity?

Brian,
I did say 'most of' and, for me at least, in nearly a century since the ballad was published there is plenty of time for oral tradition or literary interference (needs looking at closely) or both to have intervened. The kid/toad change could easily have been someone in the chain trying to make it look more plausible. Who knows?

As to Bell's fragmentary version. I don't really see how it being a fragment tells us anything. I'm aware that Child often was suspicious of 'complete' ballads as being edited/collated, but for me at least just because something is a fragment doesn't make it any more genuine.

Regarding Bell's own statements, we have plenty of examples when source singers have been mistaken or made false statements. There are all sorts of possibilities and mine is just an opinion.

If you want to go through the similarities and difference piece by piece I need to know whether you're using Child or Lyle. The stanza numbering is different.

Generally speaking, having looked at Bell's longer recitations, some of them are very close to Peter Buchan's concoctions. But there are all sorts of ways they could be derived from Buchan.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:09 PM

Hi,

James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/G, pp. 06744-06745

The Douglas Tragedy - as sung by William Angus of Cuminston, Aberdeenshire. Learned from Mr. Stephens (Sandy Stephen's brother)

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold
And ye'll tae yer armour sae bright,
Never have it said yer young sister dear,
Should get wed tae a lord or a knight."

2. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
Tae see fa [what] he could spye,
An' fa [what] did he see but her seven brothers bold,
Coming riding over the hill.

3. "Stand up, stand up, Lady Margaret," he cried,
"An' haud my steed in yer han',
Till I go an' ficht wi' your seven brothers bold
An' yer father, I'll mak for tee stand."

4. She's ta'en the steed enti her hand,
She held him baith firm and fast,
Until she sa' her seven brothers fall,
An' her father was fightin' so dear.

5. "Hold aff, hold aff, Lord William," she cried,
"For your strokes they are wondrous sair,
"Of sweethearts I shall hae mony more than een,
But a father I'll never get mair."

6. "Choose ye, ye choose, Lady Margaret," he said,
Since you are to go or bide."
"It's I maun follow after you,
Since ye've left me nae other guide."

7. They rode on, an' far farther on,
It was all by the licht o' the moon,
Until they cam tae waters clear,
It was there that they baith lichted doon.

8. They lichted down tae take a drink,
O' the water that ran by sae clear,
It was there she spied her true lover's hert's blood,
It was then she began for tae fear.

9. "Stand up, stand up, Lord William," she said,
"I'm afraid you have been slain,"
"Oh no, oh no Lady Margaret," he said,
"It's but the colour of my reed-scarlet coat,
You see in the water's clear."

10. He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
Himself on his dapple grey,
With a siller bugle hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rode away.

11. They rode on an' far, farther on,
It was all by the light o' the moon,
Until that they cam tae his mother's high door,
It was there they baith lighted doon.

12. "Arise, arise, dear mother," he said
"Arise, an' lat me in,
"Arise, arise, dear mother," he said,
"For this nicht my true love I've won."

13. "Ye'll mak my bed baith long an' broad
An' ye'll mak it baith soft an' deep,
An' lay my true love doon by my side,
That the sooner I might sleep."

14. His mother then she made his bed,
She made it wide and lang,
An she laid his lady upon his richt side,
That they micht sleep fu' soon."

15. Lord William he died in the middle o' the nicht,
An' Lady Margaret she died on the morrow.
Lord William he died for the sake o his true love,
Lady Margaret she died for sorrow.

16. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirkyard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's square,
An' on Lord William's there sprung a reid rose,
An' Lady Margaret's a bonnie briar.

17. They grew an' they grew, an' the nearer they grew,
Till they reached ane another fu' near,
Till [To] let people ken as they passed by,
That they had been lovers fu' dear."

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Lighter
Date: 03 May 18 - 01:41 PM

I've borrowed through Interlibrary Loan a little (and little-known) booklet by Fred High of High, Arkansas, called "Old, Old Folk Songs." He published it himself around 1947. It contains just the words of 73 songs of all kinds known to High and his family - most of them obscure and highly sentimental: "one song for each of my years here on earth."

"Old, Old Folk Songs" is notable as the only printed document of any length that I've ever seen that has undergone no proofreading whatsoever. In terms of spelling, punctuation, spacing, etc., what follows is 100% typical of High's 53-page booklet.

From p. 10:

                      WILLIE CAME OVER THE OCEAN

Willie came over the main wide Ocean
And Willie came over the Sea
And Willie come to my fathers household come
Come a corting home with me, me, me
He followed me up he folled me down he folled
me far and near, i had not time to tell him
To stay or go no time to tell him to stay or go estate
Go get 1/2 of your fathers and part of yours
Mothers fee and 2 of your fathers best horses and
Married we will B. B. B. & married we will B
She got 1/2 of her fathers estate and part of her
Mothers fee . . & marched rightn to the barn-doore
Tuck choice among 30 & 3 for there was 30 & eight
She mounted on the snow-white beast & Willie the
Dapple gray . . & they rode till they come to the
Salty-water sea at the lingth of a long of a
Summer day-day-day
Go light you down my pretty Polly go light
U down said he for six kind daughters Ive drounded
Here and the seventh you will be-be-be
Go pull-off that silkin dress that is made of
Silk so fine for it is to fine & costly to lye
And rot in the Sea-sea-sea
Go turn your Face all around & turn you back
On me . . . And think what ashame & a scandal it
Would B for A-necked woman ti see-see-see
He turned him self all around & about & turned
His banc on to me . . . I grabed him around the
Slim long wast & tosed him in to the deep blue sea
Reach down reach down your hands for me . .
Fir six kind daughters ive dronded here the
Seventh U wont Be-be-be & the seventh U wont B
Lye there th lye there youl cruel hearted fellow
Lye there in the place of me . . . for six kind
Daughters uve drownded here & the seventh U will B
She mounted on the snow white beast & leading
The dapple-gray until she come to her
Fathers house two long hours before it was day
Where have you ben my pretty Polye where have U
Ben says he . . . Ive ben with the richest man in
The state & drowned him in the sea-sea-.sea

                                       Sister Succie Brisco

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 09:32 AM

Hi,

I came across this in "Select Views of the Royal Palaces of Scotland,"
by John Jamieson 1830:

In a M.S. in the possession of Lord Traquair, dated 1711— from which the circumstances above mentioned are extracted— this is called 'Lord William and Fair Margaret' but like most of our popular ballads it has borne different names. It is published, in the Minstrelsy of the Border, vol. iii. 243, &c., under the title of “The Douglas Tragedy.' This place is merely mentioned by, Chalmers as “Blackhouse tower, on Douglas burn.”

It seems says that Lord Douglas was publish from a 1711 MS in possession of Lord Traquair. I'm not sure if he's talking about a ballad, or just the details of the event. I haven't seen evidence that his statement has been rebutted or amplified. Anyone?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 18 - 09:07 AM

Hi Steve,

The text I sent you was Child I, taken from an unidentified print in Child's possession which has "said" in opening line. I agree with you that "Earl Brand" is a different ballad about a similar affair with a similar ending (both are wounded, and go home and then die). Earl Brand has a refrain while Lord Douglas does not. The only stanza held strictly in common is the:

"O Earl Brand, I see thy heart’s bluid,"
"It’s but the shadow of my scarlet robe."

Similar themes are found in Bold Soldier (Bold Keeper), Braes o' Yarrow, and Erlington,

Brian, I agree with you on Child 6. I've added the changes from Lyle transcript (Bell Roberton's version) on my site now.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 02 May 18 - 11:34 PM

I realise we're supposed to have moved on now, but I've not done with #6 yet.

Steve G wrote: "Most of Bell's version is straight copy from Mrs. Brown."

But it isn't - not remotely. The bloke's name is different, every one of the spells is different, the phraseology is different, the Billy Blin now sits at the bed foot, etc, etc, etc. And then there's the fact that the supposed 'rewrite' only bothers to tell a fragment of the tale. To me it looks far more like a vestigial survival of a parallel ballad to Mrs Brown's. Oh, and there's the source's own testimony - or should this be disbelieved as a matter of course?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 May 18 - 05:41 PM

Richie, FWIW, all the print copies I've seen are the same 18 sts you have here but in the first line they all have 'says' for 'said'.

I'm presuming that what you have just posted is the 1792 version. In that case the 1792 version I have seen seemingly has 'says' unless I've copied wrongly.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 02 May 18 - 12:46 PM

Hi,

So far all the Carpenter versions are of the Lord Douglas variety and are usually titled "Lord William and Lady Margaret." They correspond to Child I and various broadside/chapbook prints titled: "Lord Douglas' Tragedy." I've listed three publications below; the earliest is 1792. Note "Blue gilded horn" for "bulge horn" in stanza 9.

Lord Douglas Tragedy: And The Shepherd's Daughter, Also, The New Way of Taliho. Published 1799.

(Chapbook) The Gosport tragedy. Lord Douglas' tragedy. My grandfather's farm. Edinburgh c. 1800.

Lord Douglas' Tragedy. To which are added, The shepherd's courtship. The blythsome bridal or the lass wi' the gouden hair. The farewell. Newcastle upon Tyne, published 1792.

          Lord Douglas' Tragedy

1    'Rise up, rise up, Lord Douglas,' she said,
'And draw to your arms so bright;
Let it never be said a daughter of yours
Shall go with a lord or a knight.

2    'Rise up, rise up, my seven bold sons,
And draw to your armour so bright;
Let it never be said a sister of yours
Shall go with a lord or a night.'

3    He looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
And there he spy'd her seven brethren bold,
And her father that lov'd her tenderly.

4    'Light down, light down, Lady Margret,' he said,
'And hold my steed in thy hand.
That I may go fight with your seven brethren bold,
And your father who's just at hand.'

5    O there she stood, and bitter she stood,
And never did shed a tear,
Till once she saw her seven brethren slain,
And her father she lovd so dear.

6    'Hold, hold your hand, William,' she said,
'For thy strokes are wondrous sore;
For sweethearts I may get many a one,
But a father I neer will get more.'

7    She took out a handkerchief of holland so fine
And wip'd her father's bloody wound,
Which ran more clear than the red wine,
And forked on the cold ground.

8    'O chuse you, chuse you, Margret,' he said,
'Whether you will go or bide!'
'I must go with you, Lord William,' she said,
'Since you've left me no other guide.'

9    He lifted her on a milk-white steed,
And himself on a dapple grey,
With a blue gilded horn hanging by his side,
And they slowly both rode away.

10    Away they rode, and better they rode,
Till they came to yonder sand,
Till once they came to yon river side,
And ther they lighted down.

11    They lighted down to take a drink
Of the spring that ran so clear,
And there she spy'd his bonny heart's blood,
A running down the stream.

12    'Hold up, hold up, Lord William,' she says,
'For I fear that you are slain;'
'Tis nought but the shade of my scarlet clothes,
That is sparkling down the stream.'

13    He lifted her on a milk-white steed,
And himself on a dapple grey,
With a blue gilded horn hanging by his side,
And slowly they rode away.

14    Ay they rode, and better they rode,
Till they came to his mother's bower;
Till once they came to his mother's bower,
And down they lighted there.

15    'O mother, mother, make my bed,
And make it saft and fine,
And lay my lady close at my back,
That I may sleep most sound.'

16    Lord William he died eer middle o the night,
Lady Margret long before the morrow;
Lord William he died for pure true love,
And Lady Margret died for sorrow.

17    Lord William was bury'd in Lady Mary's kirk,
The other in Saint Mary's quire;
Out of William's grave sprang a red rose,
And out of Margret's a briar.

18    And ay they grew, and ay they threw,
As they wad fain been near;
And by this you may ken right well
They were twa lovers dear.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 11:36 PM

Hi,

Predictably the best version so far is Bell Duncan's which is the model. From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/E, p. 08083 and James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/E, p. 08078.

Lord William and Lady Margaret - as sung by Miss Bell Duncan of Insch, Scotland.

1. "Rise up, rise up, my seven sons so bold
And put on your armour sae bright,
Ye'll tak far better care o' yer youngest sister,
For yer eldest sister's awa' last night.

2. Stand up stand up, my seven sons so bold
And stand tae your armour sae bright,
Let it ne'er be said that a sister o' yours,
Should get wed tae a lord or a knight."

3. He mounted her on a milk-white steed,
An' himsel' on a dapple grey,
Wi' the bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
An' sae lightly they baith rode awa'.

4. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see fat he could spy,
Twas there he saw her seven brothers bold,
An' her father wis drawing nigh.

5. "Light doon, light doon, Lady Margaret," he says,
"Ye'll hold my steed in yer hand,
Till I go an' fight wi' your seven brothers bold
An' yer father, I'll make him to stand."

6. She held his horse in her milk-white hand,
An' she never shed a tear,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father was floating sae near.

7. "Hold off your hand, Lord William," she said,
"For your strokes they are wondrous sair,
"Sweethearts I may get a monny a one,
But a father I will never get mair."

8. "O choose, ye choose, Lady Margaret," he says,
Either to gang or to bide."
"O I maun gang along wi' you,
For ye've left me nae other guide."

9. He's mounted her on a milk-white steed,
A' himsel' on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hangin' doon by his side,
An' sae slowly's they baith rode away.

10. An' they rode on, an' farther on,
An' twas a' by the licht o' the moon,
Until they cam till yon water wan,
An' twas there that they baith lighted doon.

11. Twas there that they both lighted down for to drink,
The water that ran by sae clear,
Twas there she first saw his life's blood wis spilt,
Twas there she began to fear.

12. "Hold up your head, Lord William," she said,
"I've nae doot bit ye're slain,"
"Oh no, it's but the shadow of my reid scarlet coat,
That gaes trinklin' doon the stream."

13. They rode on, an' farther on,
An' twas a' by the light o' the moon,
Until that they cam tae his mother's ha' door,
An' twas there that they baith lighted doon.

15. "Oh mother dear, ye'll mak my bed,
Ye'll mak it wide and lang,
An ye'll lay my lady upon my richt side,
That we may sleep fu' soon."

16. His mother then she made his bed,
She made it wide and lang,
An she laid his lady upon his richt side,
That they micht sleep fu' soon."

17. An' Lord William he died in the middle o' the nicht,
An' Lady Margaret she died on the morrow.
Lord William was slain for his ain true love,
Lady Margaret she died for sorrow.

18. Lord William was buried in Lady Mary's kirkyard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's choir,
An' oot o Lord William's there sprung a reid rose,
An' fae Lady Margaret's a briar.

19 An' they grew an' grew, an' they far better grew,
Till they reached ane an ither sae near,
Till ilka one that did them see,
Says, "Here lies twa lovers dear."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 10:56 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/E, p. 08083, missing the opening.

Lord William and Lady Margaret- as sung by Mrs William Duncan of Tories, Oyne, by Turriff, Aberdeenshire, Scotland.

1. Stand up stand up, ye seven sons so bold
And ye'll stand to your armour so bright,
It'll ne'er be said that a sister of yours,
Shall be wed to a lord or a knight."

2. Lord William looked over his broad shoulder,
To see what he could see,
And there he saw her seven brothers bold,
Come riding over the lea.

3. "Come down, come down, Lady Margaret," he cries,
"Take my steed in yer hand,
Till I go an' fight with your seven brothers bold
An' yer father I'll make stand."

4. She's taen his steed in her milk-white hand,
An' she never shed one tear,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father stood fighting sae near.

5. "Hold off your hand, Lord William," she said,
"For your strokes they are wondrous sore,
"Sweethearts I may get a many a one,
But a father I'll never get more."

6. "Choose, oh choose, Lady Margaret," he said
Either to go or to bide."
"Oh I maun gang along wi' thee,
Since ye've left me no other guide."

7. He mounted her on a milk-white steed,
Himsel' on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rode away.

8. They rode on, an' farther on,
Twas all by the light of the the moon,
Until that they came to yonder clear stream,
An' twas there that they both lighted doon.

9. They both lighted down to tak a drink,
Of the water that run sae clear,
An' down the stream ran his heart's blood,
Oh sair, sair did she fear.

10. "Hold up your head, Lord William," she said,
For I doubt not but ye're slain,
"Oh no, it's the shadow of my scarlet coat,
That shines in the water sae clear.

11. They rode on, an' farther on,
Twas all by the light of the moon,
Until that they came to his father's ha' door,
An' there they baith lighted doon.

12. "Oh mother dear, ye'll make my bed,
Ye'll mak it soft an' fine,
An ye'll lay my lady doon by my side,
That I may sleep full soon."

13. Lord William he died in the middle o' the night,
Lady Margaret she died on the morrow.
Lord William he died for his ain true love,
Lady Margaret she died for sorrow.

15. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirkyard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's choir,
An' from Lord William's there grew a red rose,
An' from Lady Margaret's a sweet briar.

16 They grew an' grew an' on they grew,
Till they reached one another sae near,
Twas to let them know all that passed by,
That there lies twa lovers sae dear.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:42 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/155, Disc Side 149, 01:56, missing some stanzas. Her name changes to Marget, a common shortened variant. The last line has "brattle"? or it could be "brattlin' briar"?

Prince William- sung by Mrs Mary Stewart Robertson, of 6 Auchreddie Road, New Deer, learned from grandmother Mrs. Mary MacPhe Stewart, 50 years ago, her grandmother was about 80 when she died. Collected in 1932.

1. He lichted Lady Margaret on a white-milk steed,
An himsel' on a dapple an' a grey,
His sword and his buckle [bugle] hung by his side,
And so slowly he rode away.

2. She stood and she stood,
An' she far better stood,
Till she sa' her seven brothers fa',
An' her father who stood close by.

3. "O haud your hand, Prince William," she said,
"Your blows are so wondrous sore,
"For sweethearts sweethearts I may get plenty,
But a father I'll never get no more."

4. "Take it in your choice, Lady Margaret," he said
Either to go or to bide."
"I maun go with you, Prince William
For you've left me nae to be my guide."

5. He lichted Lady Margaret on a white-milk steed,
An himsel' on a dapple an' a grey,
An' the sword an' buckle [bugle] it hung by his side,
An' he's come bleedin' away.

6. They rode an they rode, and they far better rode,
Till they came to a bonny spring waal [well],
"Ye'll haud my steed Lady Marget," he said
Till I tak a drink o the spring."

7. "Oh rise, oh rise, Prince William," she says,
"Oh rise, oh rise," said she,
For I think I see your very heart's blood
A-running doon this spring."

8. O they rode an' they rode, and they far better rode,
Till they came tae his father's gate,
"Oh open your gates, baith broad an' wide,
Open yer gates tae me,
For I think I've gained as fair lady
As stands in this country today.

9. Prince William died in the middle o' the night,
Lady Marget by the break o' day,
An' there grows a red rose at Lady Marget's head
An' at Prince William's a brattle an' a briar.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:03 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/F, p. 08085, very spare Scot dialect.

Lord William and Lady Margaret, (Douglas Tragedy) sung by David Edwards, 84 High St., Cuminestown, Scotland in the Formartine area of Aberdeenshire, approximately six miles east of Turriff. Learned in Cornhill 50 to 60 years ago.

1. "Stand up, stand up, my seven sons so bold
And up to your armour so bright,
Let it never be said that a sister of yours,
Was wed to a lord or a knight."

2. "Come doon, come doon, Lady Margaret," he said,
"Come hold my steed for me,
Till I go and fight your seven brothers bold
And your father so boldly to see [stand]."

3. She held it in her milk-white hand,
Without ever shedding a tear,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father fighting so dear.

4. "Hold off, hold off, Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes are wondrous sair,
"Sweethearts I will get many a one,
But a father I'll never get no more."

5. "O choose, o choose, Lady Margaret," he cries
Either to come or to bide."
"Oh I maun gang with you,
Since you've left me no other guide."

6. So he mounted her on his milk-white steed,
An himself on the dapple grey,
With his bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
And so slowly they both rode away.

7. They rode on, and farther on,
It was all by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to yon clear water,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

8. They lighted doon to take a drink
Of the water that passed then so near,
It was there she saw his life's blood
Flow from his body so fair.

9. "I fear, I fear, you've got a wound,
"I fear you're slain," she cries.
"It's only shadow of my red scarlet cloak,
That is shining in your eyes."

10. He mounted her on his milk-white steed,
Himself on a dapple grey,
With his bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
And so slowly they both rode away.

11. They rode on, and farther on,
It was all by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to yon castle tower,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

12 "Awake, awake, my mother," he cried
"And make my bed for me,
"For I have brought my true love here,
This night to lie with me."

13. Lord William he died in the middle of the night,
Lady Margaret died on the morrow.
Lord William died for his true love's sake,
Lady Margaret died of sorrow.

14. And so these two in this grave were laid,
They were both laid side by side,
Out of Lord William's grave there grew a red rose,
And out of Lady Margaret's a sweet briar.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 08:12 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/C, p. 11595

Lord William and Lady Margaret,(The Douglas Tragedy)- sung by Peter Barnett Oyne, Aberdeenshire, c. 1890

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold,
And ye'll stand to your armour so bright,
It'll ne'er be said that a sister of yours,
Shall be wed to a lord or a knight."

2. "Come doon, come doon, Lady Margaret," he said,
"An' ye'll hold my steed in yer hand,
Till I go an' fight wi' your seven brothers bold
An' your father I'll make him to stand."

3. Lady Margaret stood in the stable door,
An' ne'er a word she spoke,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father fighting so bold.

4. "Hold off, hold off, Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes they are fu sair,
"Sweethearts I'll get plenty
But a father I'll never get mair."

5. ."Oh choose, oh choose, Lady Margaret," he said
Choose ye to go or to bide."
"Oh I maun go wi' you, love,"
Since ye've left me no other guide."

6. So he mounted her on a milk-white steed,
An himsel' on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hangin' doon by his side,
An' so slowly they both rode away.

7. They rode on, an' farther on,
Twas all by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to yon clear water,
Twas there that they both lighted doon.

8. They both lighted doon for to take a drink
Of the water that ran sae clear,
Twas there that she saew his heart's blood run down
An' twas then she began for to fear.

9. "Hold up, hold up, Lord William," she said,
"I'm afraid ye have been slain,"
"Oh no, it's but the shadow of the red scarlet cloak,
That goes trinklin' along the stream."

10. So he mounted her on his milk-white steed,
An himsel' on his dapple grey,
Wi' his silver horn hangin' doon by his side,
An' so slowly's they both rode away.

11. They rode on, an' farther on,
Twas all by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to his mother's gate,
Twas there that they both lighted doon.

12 "Oh rise, oh rise, my mother dear,
"Oh rise up and let me in.
"Oh rise, oh rise, my mother dear,
For this night my true love I've won."

13. "Ye'll make my bed, mother,
Ye'll make it soft an' fine,
An ye'll lay my true love doon by my side,
So fondly's we may sleep."

14. Lord William he died in the middle o' the night,
Lady Margaret died on the morrow.
Lord William died for his own true love,
Lady Margaret for perfect sorrow.

15. The one was buried in St. Peter's kirk yard,
The other in st. Mary's hall,
An' oot o' the one grew a red rose sae fine,
An' oot o' the other grew a sweet briar.

16 They grew and grew till they reached the top,
Til they could grow no higher,
And they twined themselves in a true lover's knot
For all true lovers to admire.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 06:31 PM

Hi,


From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/D, pp. 04654-04655, 1st stanza is missing.

Lord William and Lady Margaret (The Douglas Tragedy)- sung by Mary Thain of 27 Castle street, Banff, c. 1930

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold,
And stand to your armour so bright,
Ne'er let it be said that a sister of yours,
Shall be married to a lord or a knight."

2. He's mounted her on her milk-white steed,
An' himsel' on a dapple grey,
With the buglet horn hanging doon by his side,
It's so slowly they baith rade away.

3. He's looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
An there he spied her seven brethren bold,
Come riding over the lea.

4. "Lightet doon, lightet doon, Lady Margaret," he cries,
"An' ye'll take my steed in your hand,
Ere I go fight with your seven brethren bold
An' your father an aged man."

5. "Hold off, hold off, Lord William," she cries,
"Your strokes they're wondrous sore,
"Sweethearts I may hae monny a one,
But a father I'll ne'er hae more."

6. "Wilt thou choose, wilt thou choose, Lady Margaret," he cries,
"Wilt thou choose for to go or to bide."
"It's I will choose to go, Lord William," she says
"Since you've left me no other guide."

7. He's mounted her on his milk-white steed,
An himsel' on his dapple grey,
Wi' a buglet horn hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rade away.

8. They've ride on, an' farther on,
All by the light of the moon,
Til they came to a clear running stream,
Twas there where they baith lighted doon.

9. They lighted doon for to take a drink
All by the stream running clear,
Twas there that she sae her lover's heart bleed
Twas there she began to fear.

10. "Hold off, hold off, Lord William," she cried,
"I fear ye hae been slain,
"Oh no, it's the shadow of the red scarlet cloak,
A shinin' in the water so clear."

11. He's mounted her on his milk-white steed,
An himsel' on his dapple grey,
Wi' a buglet horn hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rade away.

12. They've ride on, an' farther on,
All by the light of the moon,
Until they came to his mother's bowers;
Says, "Arise an' lat me in."

13. "Rise up, rise up lady mother," he cried,
"Rise up an' lat me in,"
"Rise up, rise up lady mother," he cried,
"For this night my fair lady I hae win."

14. "Make my bed baith long and wide,
Make it baith wide an' deep,
An' lay Lady Margaret close at my back,
That the sounder I may sleep."

15. Lord William died ere the middle o' the night,
Lady Margaret died the next day.
. . . .
. . . .

16 They twa met an' they twa plott,
I'm sure they were twa lovers dear,
An a' ye lovers that wish to gang thegither,
I wish you more luck than they.