Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 04:20 PM

Hi,

Title is written in pencil. From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/F, p. 08088. Inconsistent dialect, I've added missing 3rd line in stanza 13.

Lord William and Lady Margaret(The Douglas Tragedy)- sung by John Riddoch of Oyne, Aberdeenshire, c. 1930

1. "Rise up, rise up, Lord Douglas," she cried,
An' put on your armour so bright,
An' take better care of your youngest daughter,
For the eldest's away last night."

2. "Rise up, rise up, ye seven sons so bold,
Put on your armour so bright,
And tak' better care of your youngest sister,
For the eldest's away last night."

3. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
Twas then that he saw her seven brothers bold,
Come riding over the lea.

4. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
Himsel' on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hangin' doon by his side,
So slowly they baith rode away.

4. They rode on, an' father on,
It was all by the light o' the moon,
It they came to a clear winding stream,
It wis then they baith lichted doon fear.

5. "Light doon, light doon, Lady Margaret," he cried,
"An' tak my steed in yer hand,
Till I go an' fight wi' your seven brothers bold
An' your father I'll make for to stand."

6. She took his steed in her milk-white hand,
An she never shed one tear,
Until she saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father fighting severe.

7. "Oh hold ye, oh hold ye," Lord William," she cried,
"Hold up e'er ye be dead,
"Tis naught, tis naught, Lady Margaret," he said
But the shining of my coat so red."

8. She's ta'en out her handkerchief,
Doon in yonder lowlands so fine,
And she has wiped his bloody wounds,
They were redder than the wine.

9. He mounted her on her milk-white steed,
An himsel' on his dapple grey,
Wi' a bugle horn hangin' doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rode away.

10. They rode on, an' farther on,
Twas all by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to his mother's hall door,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

11. "Rise up, rise up, my mother dear,
"Rise up and let me in.
This night through stress and blood I fear,
My lady I have won."

12. "Oh mother dear, go make my bed," he cried,
Make it baith lang, soft an' deep,
An lay Lady Margaret along by my side,
That the sounder we may sleep."

13. Lord William died in the middle of the night,
Lady Margaret died on the morrow.
[Lord William died from his wounds],
Lady Margaret died of sorrow.

14. They buried then baith in St. Mary's church yard,
Right in the middle of the square,
Oot o' the lady's grave there grew a bonny rose,
While oot o' the knight's grew a briar.

15 They twa met an' they twa plot,
Growing in beauty together.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 02:30 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/A, p. 11482, title in pencil, inconsistent dialect.

"Lord William and Lady Margaret" (The Douglas Tragedy)- sung by William Walker of South Nittans Head, Bonnykelly, New Pitsligo, learned about 1895 from George Taylor of Murryfold, Turriff.

1. "Stand up, stand up, ye seven sons so bold,
Put on your armour so bright,
Ne'er let it be said that a sister of yours,
Should be married tae a lord e're night [or knight]."

2. He [Lord William] has mounted her on a milk-white steed,
An' himsel' on the dapple grey,
Wie a bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rode away.

3. They rode on, an' on they rode,
It was all by the light o' the moon,
They rode on tae yon clear running stream,
It was there they lighted doon.

4. It was there they lighted doon tae tak a drink,
o, the water it ran sae clear,
It was there that he saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father fighting severe.

5. "Come doon, come doon, Lady Margaret," he cried,
"An tak ye my steed in yer hand,
And I will fight your seven brothers bold
And your father I'll mak him tae stand."

6. Lady Margaret came doon frae her high horseback,
An' she never shed a tear,
Until he saw her seven brothers fall,
An her father fighting severe.

7. "Hold off, hold off," Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes are wondrous sair,
Sweethearts I'll get mony a ain,
But a father I'll never get mair."

8."Oh choose, oh choose, Lady Margaret," he cried
Whether to gang or tae bide."
"Oh i'll gang wie you, Lord William," she cried
Since you've left me no other guide."

9. He mounted her on his milk-white steed,
Himsel on a dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hanging doon by his side,
An' so slowly they baith rode away.

10. They rode on, an' on they rode,
It was all by the light of the moon,
Until they came tae his mother ha' door,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

11. "Arise, arise, oh mother," he cried,
"Arise and let me in.
Arise, arise, oh mother," he cried,
For this night my fair lady I've won."

12. "Oh mother dear go mak my bed,
An' mak it broad an' deep,
An' lay Lady Margaret doon by my side,
And the sooner I may sleep."

13. Lord William he dead e're the middle o the nicht,
Lady Margaret she died next day,

14. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirk yard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's square,
And oot o' of Lady Margaret's grew a red, red rose,
And oot o' the Lord William's a sweet briar.

15. They grew and they grew tae the high steeple top,
Till they could grow no higher,
They formed themselves into a true lover's form,
All true lovers fond to admire.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 May 18 - 12:54 PM

Simplest thing in the world to take a ballad from a book and change a few details. It's been done many a time. Think of fakers who sent Scott stuff and then the people who took the stuff from Scott and added their own bits. And whereas oral tradition occasionally comes in to play there's a lot of literary/editorial interference going on. Yes most of Bell's version is straight copy from Mrs. Brown.

All of this of course is pure conjecture on both our parts and no doubt both of us have studied all of the versions of every ballad.

I've just sent you all of the Greig-Duncan versions, Richie.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 01 May 18 - 10:10 AM

Thanks for linking the Robertson version, Richie, there's quite a lot more of it than I'd remembered.

When I first stumbled on it, the fact that it was so clearly the same ballad as Mrs Brown's, yet so different in detail, struck me as a corroboration of 'Willie's Lady'. Steve may disagree.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:38 AM

Hi,

The curses in Robertson's version (three total) are different. The rough draft of my headnotes is here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british-and-other-versions-6-willies-lady.aspx

I'm finally starting on Child 7, and will be posting. Steve mentions William Walker who Carpenter collected a version from titled "Lord William's Lady." There are 106 Carpenter entries for Child 7-- most of them multiple entries for the same version.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 May 18 - 03:38 AM

Hi Brian,
As you know I'm always highly suspicious of the verity of ballads with very few versions. I was talking generally about Bell Robertson's ballads. I'll certainly have a closer look at this one now you mention it. William Walker, latterly Buchan's apologist, seems to have been rather heavily involved in what Greig was doing.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:45 PM

Yes, Richie, I always thought that a toad was much more likely to escape detection, and would be a better witch's familiar as well.

Steve, since Bell Robertson's fragment has the hero named differently and the more plausible toad detail, where do you think she might have got it from (if not her grandmother). If she was going to fabricate a witchcraft ballad, you'd have thought she'd have come up with more than three verses.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:04 PM

Yes,
The only really reliable source for this ballad is Mrs Brown and even that ballad is very likely at some point in the mid 18thc to have been translated from the Danish like many another.

Bell Robertson recites too many long ballads that follow Buchan's concoctions to be reliable.
She does provide one very useful piece of information when she states that Jamie Rankin (Buchan's fall guy, whom she knew) hadn't the wit to make up a ballad.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 08:08 PM

Hi,

I'm almost done with Child 6 and want to know if there's anything I should add or change to these simple notes (the versions and opening headnotes):

A. Willy's Lady, Mrs. Brown of Falkirk (Willie has taen him oer the fame,) 1783
   a. "Willy's Lady" Mrs. Brown of Falkirk, Fraser-Tytler Manuscript
   b1. "Sweet Willy," Mrs. Brown of Falkirk, Jamieson-Brown Manuscript, No 15, fol. 33.
   b2. "Willie's Ladye," Mrs. Brown of Falkirk, W. Scott based on Child Ab (Jamieson's MS) version, 1802
   b3. "Sweet Willy," Mrs. Brown of Falkirk, Jamieson, Popular Ballads and Songs (Appendix), 1806.
   c1. "Willy's Lady" recreation by Matthew Gregory Lewis in Tales of Wonder, 1801.
   c2. "Willy's Lady" an 1818 Dublin print issued in "Charms of Melody," a copy of Lewis, C1.
   d. "Sweet Willie of Liddesdale," recreation by Jamieson, 1806
   e1. "Sweet Willy" revival text of Child Aa by Ray Fisher of Scotland arranged in the early 1970s (recorded 1982) to the tune of the Breton "Son ar Chiste" (The Song of Cider, c. 1944).
   e2. "Sweet Willy" revival text of Child Ab by Martin Carthy, 1976, based on Ray Fisher's melody.

B. "Simon's Lady," fragment recited by Bell Robertson of New Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire, by Greig, 1906
   a. "Simon's Lady," recitation by Bell Robertson in "Last Leaves of Traditional Ballads" (Keith, 1925)
   b. "Simon's Lady," recitation by Bell Robertson "Greig Duncan Collection" by Pat Shuldham-Shaw and Emily B Lyle.

[This ballad, about a curse of an evil mother on her pregnant daughter-in-law that prevents her from giving birth, was popular in Denmark. Child gives extensive details of the foreign analogues in his headnotes. The British traditional record is two Scottish ballads, both dating back to the 1700s[]. The two MSS from Mrs. Brown (Child Aa and Ab), which date dating back to 1783, are slightly different. Mrs. Brown ballad was reworked by Matthew Gregory Lewis in "Tales of Wonder" (1801), in 1802 Sir Walter Scott published an "ancient copy, never before published" version titled "Willie's Ladye" which was Child Ab with some minor changes, then in 1806 Robert Jamieson published a copy of his MS (Jamieson-Brown MS of 1783) and a reworked recreation by his own hand. In 1966 Helen Flanders published a version form the 1818 Dublin issued "Charms of Melody," which she failed to identify as a version Matthew Gregory Lewis' "Tales of Wonder."

The significantly shorter traditional fragment from Bell Roberston was collected by Grieg about 1906. It appears in "Last Leaves of Traditional Ballads" (Greig-Keith, 1925) and also the "Greig-Duncan Collection" by Pat Shuldham-Shaw and Emily B Lyle (1981-2002). Keith suggests the source is Bell Robertson's grandmother, Isobel Stephen of Strichen which would date the ballad back to the 1700s. Although the text is a fragment, there is at least one improvement which was probably a mis-hearing by Mrs Brown that occurs in stanza 37 and again in stanza 42. The "master-kid" for "kid" or "goat" appears in Robertson's version as "ted" or "tead" for "toad." Since "the master kid" also "ran beneath that ladie's bed" it would seem to have been discovered and removed whereas a "toad" could have stayed under the bed unnoticed.

In the early 1970s the ballad was revived in the UK through an arrangement by Ray Fisher of Scotland that was popularized by a 1976 recording by Martin Carthy[]. Her arrangement wed the text of Child Aa to the Breton tune, "Son ar Chiste" (The Song of Cider).

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 11:50 PM

Hi,

I just finished the "rough draft" of the headnotes for Gil Brenton, Child 5. Since they are not too long I'll post them, comments welcome, I'm sure there are some minor errors:

* * * *

[This Scottish ballad, about the virtue of a lord's intended bride, died out of tradition in the 1800s. In 1827 William Motherwell never would have expected its demise for he reported[1], "This ballad is very popular, and is known to reciters under a variety of names. I have heard it called Lord Bangwell, Bengwill, Dingwall, Brengwill, etc., and The Seven Sisters, or the Leaves of Lind." A ballad with a complex theme that's sixty to eighty stanzas was simply too long to print as a broadside and too long be remembered and sung by "the mouths of the peasantry." There is no evidence that ballad was collected in America so Motherwell's buoyant assessment of the ballad's popularity seems to be overblown. Shortly after Motherwell's Minstrelsy was published the ballad's popularity began to wane and only two other records of it were found[2]-- the last in 1881.

Child gives eight versions (A-H) and Bronson prints just three melodies with music. The music for Mrs. Brown's version (Child A, "Gil Brenton" or "Chil' Brenton") was written down by a novice musician, Mrs. Brown's nephew, Bob Scott, and is therefore unreliable. As Mrs. Brown's text was given by Child (see below), the two line stanzas are wanting a refrain, tho none was originally written down. A second music version of "Lord Bengwill" was given by William Motherwell and it appeared in his Minstrelsy (Appendix, p. xvi) with one stanza of text. "Lord Bengwill" was transcribed for Motherwell by Andrew Blaikie from Mary Macqueen also known as Mrs. William Storie of Lochwinnoch. Mary Macqueen was Crawfurd's principle informant and also was paid by Motherwell along with her brother Thomas to collect ballads. A third melody was arranged by William Christie (Traditional Ballad Airs, Volume 2, 1881) from the singing of his paternal grandfather, and was sung with the refrain, "Aye, the Birks a-bowing."

Child begins his headnotes by saying[3], "Eight copies of this ballad are extant. . ." which is not entirely accurate. Although Child lists Motherwell's b version, he does not list it as a separate ballad sung by Mrs. Storie. Child did not know the informant since Motherwell just gave one stanza with music. The source and transcriber (Andrew Blaikie of Paisley) were not given. It was not until 1975 when Emily B. Lyle transcribed Andrew Crawfurd's MS that "Lord Bangwell's Adventure" was accessible. Motherwell knew of the MS but for some reason did not print the full text. Here is the missing text:

Fc. "Lord Bangwell's Adventure" from Andrew Crawfurd's Collection of Ballads and Songs, p. 3-5, sung by Mary Macqueen of Lochwinnoch.

1 Seven ladies liv'd in a bower
He down and ho down
An ay the youngest was the flower
He down and ho down

2 They had ae brither amangst them aw
And Sir John they did him caw

3 The seven had to mak him a sark
It was the seven's hale year's wark

4 But whan the sark it was made an dune
They cast lots wha wad with it gang
But the lot fell on the youngest ane

5 As she was gawn through the leaves o Lyne
She met a lord gallant an fine

6 He kept her thare sae lang sae lang
Frae the morning bright to the sune gade doun

7. An frae that again till the next morning,
An aw he gade her at their parting
Was a pair o green gloves a gay gold ring

8 An three plaits o his yellow hair
That was a token if air thay shoud meet mair

9 But whan nine months was past an gane
Lord Bangwell buit a courting gang

10 As he was walking through yon green hall
He saw se'en ladies playan at the baw

11 He threw his baw amang them aw
An on the youngest the baw did faw

12 He threw his gloves amang them aw
An on the youngest the gloves did faw

13 He threw his napkin amang them aw
An on the youngest it did faw

14 He cryde whare will I get a man,
To come and my young bride on.

15 Tha war nane sae readie as Sir John
To come and help his sister on

16 Than out bespak our foremaist man
I think our bride rides slowlie on

17 Then out bespak our hindmaist man
I think our bride rides weepand on

18 O does the wind blaw on your glove
Or are you bound for sum other love

19 Or ar you weary o your life
Because your made Lord Bangwell's wife

20 The wind does not blow on my glove
Nor I am bound for nae other love

21 But I am weary of my life
Because I am made Lord Bangwell's wife

22 As they at Wedding supper sat
An unco pain come in o her back

23 And as they lay aw in Bride's bed
He put his hand for to hap his bride
An there he fand the young thing leap

24 He tok his fit and he gade her a bang
And out o bed himsel he flang

25 He to the hall amang them aw
An on his mother he gade a caw

26 I thought I got a lily flower
But I hae got sume ither man's hure

27 I thought I got a maid meek an mild
But I got a whore an sho is big wi child

28 O dochter O dochter cum tell me
Wha is the faither o your babee

29 As I was walking the leaves of Lyne
I met a lord gallant and fine

30 He kept me there sae lang sae lang
From the morning bright to the sun gade doun

31 An frae that again till the next morning
An aw he gade me at our parting
Was a pair of green gloves and a gay gold ring

32 An thrie plaits of his yellow hair
That was a token if ere we soud meet mair

33 O dochter O dochter cum tell to me
Where is the green

34 O mother O mother gang to the haw
An there ye'll find them wi my claes aw

35 An whan she fand them she kent her son
For on the gloves was writ her name

36 She to the haw amang them aw
And on her son she gade a caw

37 O son O son cum tell to me
Whaur is the green gloves that I gade thee

38 As I was walking the leaves o Lyne
I met a lady gallant an fine

39 I kept her thare sae lang sae lang
Frae the morning bright till the sun gade doun

40 And frae that again till the next morning
An aw I gade her at our parting
It was thir green gloves a gay gold ring

41 An three plaits of my yellow hair
That was a token if ere we soud meet mair

42 An I wad rather than castles and towers
I had that same lady in my bower

43 I wad rather than my very life
I had that same lady for my wife

44 Ye wad not need rather than castles and towers
For ye hae that same lady in your bower

45 You need not rather than your very life
For ye hae that same lady for your wife

46 Go hap my lady wi quilts o' silk
And feed my young son wi woman's milk

47 These words were written on its breast bane
It was Lord Bangwell's sevent son

48 Thae words wore written on its right hand
It was to be heir of aw Lord Bangwell's land.

Macqueen's ballad is shorter than most and uses the standard "Hey down" refrain. In his 1881 book, "Traditional Ballad Airs, Volume 2," William Christie produced an even shorter text (my Db) that "was somewhat like the one given by Mr Buchan, which is here epitomized with some alterations[4]."

Db. "Aye the Birks a-bowing" or, "Lord Dingwall."

1. O we were sisters, sisters seven,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
The fairest women under heaven,
And aye the birks a-bowing.

2. And we kiest kevels us amang,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
Wha wou'd now to the greenwood gang,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

3. A' for to pu' the finest flowers,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
To put around our summer bowers,
And aye the birks a-bowing.

4. I was the youngest o' them a',
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
And this fortune did me befa',
And aye the birks a-bowing.

5. Unto the greenwood I did gang,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
And pu'd the nuts as they down hang,
And aye the birks a-bowing,

6. I hadna stay'd an hour but ane,
A-bowing down, a bowing down;
Till I met wi' a gay young man,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

7. We pu'd the nuts sae late and lang,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
Till the evening set, and the birds they sang,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

8. He gae to me at our parting,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
A chain of gold, and gay gold ring,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

9. And three locks o' his yellow hair,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
And bade me keep them for evermair,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

10. Then for to show I make nae lee,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
Look in my trunk and ye will see,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

11. His mother to the trunk did go,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
To see if that were true or no,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

12. And aye she sought, and aye she flang,
   A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
Till these four things came to her hand,
   And aye the birks a-bowing.

13. Then she ran to her son Lord Dingwall,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
And said, "My son, ye'll quickly tell,
And aye the birks a-bowing.

14. Ye'll quickly tell to me this thing,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
What did you wi' my wedding ring?
And aye the birks a-bowing."

15. "O mother dear, I'll tell nae lee,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
I gave it to a gay ladie,
And aye the birks a-bowing.

16. I would gi'e a' my ha's and towers,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down,
I had this ladie within my bowers,
And aye the birks a-bowing."

17. "Keep well, keep well, your lands and strands,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
Ye hae that ladie within your hands,
And aye the birks a-bowing.

18. Now, my son, to your bower ye'll go,
A-bowing down, a-bowing down;
And comfort your ladie, she's full of woe,
   And aye the birks a-bowing."

Neither Macqueen's text or Christie's were given by Child whose A version was reserved for one of the eminent Scottish traditional singers: Anna Gordon Brown or "Mrs. Brown" of Old Machar, Aberdeenshire. Mrs. Brown learned her ballads from "her aunt, her mother and an old nurse of the family[5]." In 1783 Mrs. Brown prepared manuscripts of twenty ballad for William Tytler (5Aa, Jamieson-Brown MSS) who later requested the tunes be added. Mrs Brown's nephew Bob Scott, a "mere novice in musick" wrote out fifteen tunes (5Ab, William Tytler-Brown MSS) which were sent to William Tytler and later copied by Joseph Ritson. The first MSS was given to Jamieson, while the MSS with tunes disappeared, leaving only Ritson's copy which is now at the Harvard Library. In the Jamieson's copy the intended husband is "Gil Brenton" while in the William Tytler MS he is "Chil' Brenton." The ballad text, as properly arranged by Child[6], is wanting of a refrain, which may have been omitted by Brown's source presumable to shorten the duration of the 76 stanza version. Only a few stanza are given:

1    Gil Brenton has sent oer the fame,
He's woo'd a wife an brought her hame.

2    Full sevenscore o ships came her wi,
The lady by the greenwood tree.

3    There was twal an twal wi beer an wine,
An twal an twal wi muskadine:

The ballad story, much simplified and including other versions, is this: Gil Brenton has selected a wife and brought her home. There's only one problem, it is later revealed that she's pregnant. When his mother is sent to question his intended bride, the bride admits a dalliance with a young man who gave her certain tokens (a lock of his hair, a string of beads, a gold ring, and a knife) which she must keep. After his mother examines the tokens she realizes that they are the very same tokens she had given her son. The maid was pregnant by her son, the intended groom! His mother goes and questions her son who admits he gave the tokens to a maid who he now wishes were his wife. His mother then explains that his earlier lover is, in fact, his intended bride. Months later after they are married, a son is born and on his breast bone is written "Gil Brenton is my father's name."

Anna Brown's ballad ends as such:

73    Now or a month was come an gone,
This lady bare a bonny young son.

74    An it was well written on his breast-bane
'Gil brenton is my father's name.'

* * * *

Child B, "Cospatrick," is from Sir Walter Scott's Minstrelsy, ii, 117 (1802). It is a composite, arranged by Scott from the recitation of his relative Miss Christian Rutherford with text borrowed from Herd's "Bothwell," and Mrs. Brown's "Child Brenton." According to Scott: "Cospatrick (Comes Patricius) was the designation of the Earl of Dunbar, in the days of Wallace and Bruce[7]."

The name, Cospatrick, is apparently from Major Henry Hutton of the Royal Artillery who sent three stanzas to Scott (24th December, 1802 Letters, I, No 77) as recollected by his father and the family ("Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy," No 18).

Eight years after Scott's sixty-one stanza composite a version, "We were sisters, we were seven," was published in Cromek's "Remains of Nithsdale and Galloway Song," p. 207, (1810) arranged from "a peasant woman of Galloway, upwards of ninety-years of age" by Alan Cunningham who significantly recreated many versions in the edition-- passing them off as traditional. Cromek and Cunningham's headnotes follow, which were critical of Scott's composite[8]:

"This curious legend is one among a considerable number which were copied from the recital of a peasant woman of Galloway, upwards of ninety years of age. They were all evidently productions of a very remote date, and, whatever might be their poetical beauties, were so involved in obscurity as to render any attempt at illustration useless. This tale was preserved as a specimen of the rest, being not only the clearest in point of style, but possessing a character of originality which cannot fail to interest the reader. Though not strictly what may be called a fairy tale, it is narrated in a similar way. The transitions are abrupt, yet artfully managed, so as to omit no circumstance of the story which the imagination of the reader may not naturally supply. The singular character of Billie Blin' (the Scotch Brownie, and the lubbar fiend of Milton) gives the whole an air of the marvellous, independently of the mystic chair, on which the principal catastrophe of the story turns.

In the third volume of Mr. Scott's Border Minstrelsy there is a ballad called " Cospatrick," founded on three more imperfect readings of this ancient fragment, interspersed with some patches of modern imitation. The entire piece is not so long as the present copy, and the supplementary part but ill accords with the rude simplicity of the original. It is like the introduction of modern masonry to supply the dilapidations of a Gothic ruin; the style of architecture is uniform, but the freshness and polish of the materials destroy the effect of the ancient structure, and it can no longer be contemplated as a genuine relique of past ages.

There are many incongruities in Mr. Scott's copy, which it is strange that so able an antiquary could have let pass. For example:—

"When bells were rung, and mass was said,
And a' men unto bed were gane."

In the Romish service we never heard of mass being said in the evening, but vespers, as in the original here given. Mr. Scott also omits that interesting personage the "Billie Blin," and awkwardly supplies the loss by making the bed, blanket, and sheets speak, which is an outrage on the consistency even of a fairy tale."

Child commented: "Though overlaid with verses of Cunningham's making (of which forty or fifty may be excided in one mass) and though retouched almost everywhere, both the ground work of the story and some genuine lines remain unimpaired. The omission of most of the passage referred to, and the restoration of the stanza form, will give us, perhaps, a thing of shreds and patches, but still a ballad as near to genuine as some in Percy's Reliques or even Scott's Minstrelsy."

Then in his End-notes Child added: "There is small risk in pronouncing 24. 25, 42, 43, 80, 81 spurious, and Cunningham surpasses his usual mawkishness in 83."

Four years later when "Illustrations of Northern Antiquities" was published, Robert Jamieson and Sir Walter Scott responded to Cromek's and Cunningham's comments in the notes to Jamieson's translation of "Ingefred and Gudrune," an analogue of Gil Brenton[9]:

"In a publication (of no credit) which has just reached us, entitled "Remains of Nithsdale and Galloway Song," by R. H. Cromek, (which is executed in such a manner as, were it of sufficient importance, to bring the authenticity of all popular poetry in question,) there is a very poor and mutilated copy of "Gil Brenton," in a note upon which is the following passage: "There are many incongruities in Mr Scott's copy, which it is strange that so able an antiquary could have let pass. For example, we never hear of mass being said in the evening, but vespers, as in the original here given. Mr Scott also omits that interesting personage, the "Billie Blin," and awkwardly supplies the loss by making the bed, blankets, and sheets, speak, which is an outrage on the consistency even of a fairy tale."

Now, in Mr Scott's copies, and the present writer's, where the hero is called Gil Brenton, the blankets and sheets are just as in the Minstrelsy; there is no word of "Billie Blin," and we doubt if ever any reciter of the ballad mentioned him; and as to vespers, neither the thing itself, nor the name, is known among the peasantry of Scotland; whereas the mass, having been the war-cry of the Reformers, and afterwards of the Covenanters, during the struggles between presbytery and episcopacy, is still familiar to every one."

* * * *

Buchan published a version "Lord Dingwall," in his Ballads of the North of Scotland, I, 204, 1828. He commented[10]:

"This ballad has all the insignia of antiquity stamped upon it; and records one of those romantic fashions said to exist in the Highlands of Scotland some hundred years ago. I am not inclined to think that the hero of the piece was any of the Lords Dingwall, although its name would imply as much; but rather a Highland chieftain, or Laird of Dingwall, a royal borough in Ross-shire; if such be the real name of the ballad; of which I am dubious, for Sir Richard Preston was created Lord Dingwall by King James, in 1607, by patent, to the heirs of his body. His only daughter and heir, Lady Elizabeth, married James, the great Duke of Ormond. His grandson, James, second and last Duke, claimed, in 1710, the Scotch honour of Dingwall; for which he was allowed to vote at the election of the sixteen peers the same year. This title was forfeited by his attainder, in 1715. From this we may see, that none of the Lords of Dingwall resided in the Highlands, but most part in England, which confirms my opinion.

In an imperfect copy of a ballad somewhat similar in incident to this one, the hero of the piece is called “Lord Bothwell;” but which of the two is the true title, I am not determined to say."

Buchan's improved refrains have been wed with other texts including Cospatrick in later editions of Scottish ballads[11]. Christie later shortened shortened and arranged Buchan's text for this melody.

About the next year (1829-30) the noted Scottish historian and writer John Hill Burton (b.1809) from Aberdeen and later Edinburgh wrote out a fragment from recitation (no informant was named) that became part of George Ritchie Kinloch MSS.

Several years later in 1833 Andrew Picken included a fragment of text (my I version) in "Traditionary Stories of Old Familes and Legendary Illustrations of Family Histry, 1833." On page 62 in the section, "The Three Maids of Loudon" the following stanzas appear. This excerpt includes part of the text:

The voices of the maidens rose sweet and soft in their arched chamber, but they had not chanted more than a stanza or two of their simple song, running thus,

“Seven pretty sisters dwelt in a bower,
   With a hey-down, and a ho-down;
And they twined the silk, and they work'd the flower,
Sing a hey-down, and a ho-down.

“And they began for seven years' wark,
      With a hey-down, and a ho-down,
All for to make their dear loves a sark,
    With a hey-down, and a ho-down.

“O three long years were pass'd and gone,
      With a hey-down, and a ho-down,
And they had not finish’d a sleeve but one
    With a hey-down, and a ho-down.

O we’ll to the woods, and we’ll pull a rose,
    With a hey-down, and a ho-down;
And up they sprang all at this propose,
   With a hey-down, and a ho-down;”

when the loud sound of a horn without startled their lady, and hushed the whole into instant silence. As they listened and looked in each other's faces, the note rang through the distant woods, and reveberated away from the castle walls with a thousand prolonged echoes.

* * * *

The Scottish ballad Gil Brenton, Child No. 5, disappeared from tradition by the late 1800s. Because of its length, it has not been revived and remains a "dead" ballad. The important texts not given by Child are: 1) "Lord Bengwill's Adventure" from Mary Macqueen (Mrs. William Storie) of Lochwinnoch; Crawfurd's MS published by Lyle, 1975; and 2) "Aye the Birks a-bowing, or, Lord Dingwall," an arrangement of Buchan's text by W. Christie, Traditional Ballad Airs, Volume 2, 1881.

Mortherwell's b version by Mary Macqueen (Crawfurd's MS) should be given a separate letter designation but I've used Child's letter designations for this ballad. Child's texts appear on the first page after this headnotes. The same texts with additional notes appear attached to this page and are listed in CONTENTS, below. Once again Child's excellent headnotes are filled with foreign analogues (see footnote 9 for a Danish analogue by Robert Jamieson) which may or may not be directly related to these Scottish ballads.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 02:11 PM

Hi Steve,

Regarding your question. Yes, the American versions have combined identifiers and ballad types, making categorizing some of them impossible.

"Pretty Polly" is identified with the English broadsides but in America the name is a floating name found in Scottish versions. The Scottish "He followed her" :

He followd her butt, he followd her benn,
He followd her through the hall,
Till she had neither tongue nor teeth
Nor lips to say him naw. [May Collin, Child H, c. 1780]

is common in America and should show a Scottish origin but it too is sometimes a floating stanza. Many American versions are missing the opening- what is significant is the Outlandish Knight opening is extremely rare in America which means:

The Outlandish Knight was not the early source for the ballad in America and was not brought over by the early settlers. So the Outlandish Knight is a secondary ballad.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 01:48 PM

Hi,

I'm finished for now with Child 4 and have concluded that the two English prints (Outlandish Knight; False-knight Outwitted) are both secondary prints. There are over a dozen traditional versions of False-knight Outwitted which may be used to supply missing stanzas.

I've reviewed and categorized most of the extant versions, a number of which do not fit the standard ballad types either because they are missing identifiers or they aren't conclusively one type. Here is the section of my headnotes regarding identifiers:

Some Identifiers:

The identifiers are for these ballad types; Child B (Wearie's Well); Child C (May Colvin, Scottish, Herd 1776); Child D (Historical Scottish); Child E (Outlandish Knight); Child F (False Knight Outwitted) and Child G (Irish, "willow tree"). Child A is unique and possibly not authentic and Child H (May Collin) is part of Child C (early Scottish). Although listed separately Child H had more accurately given the "He wooed me butt(outside)" stanza which is the Scottish identifier for the American versions. Most of the traditional versions are English (Outlandish, Child E, my A) Scottish (He followed me up, Child C, my D) or have the "willow tree" stanza (Child G, my E). Below are identifiers with my letter designations:

A. "The Outlandish Knight," ("An outlandish knight came from the north lands,") similar to or based on the various broadsides (16-18 stanzas); two prints c. 1840 titled "The Old Beau's Courtship."
1. Maid is "Pretty Polly" or "pretty maid" and "outlandish knight" is also "false knight."
2. An outlandish knight comes from "North lands"
3. father's gold, mother's fees
4. She pulls off silken gown, silken stays and holland smock.
5. He views the "leaves so green" and is thrown into a stream (or "the sea").
6. Don't prittle nor prattle (parrot); It's no laughing matter (parrot)
7. "The king is in his chamber"

B. "The False Knight Outwitted: A New Song" [12 stanzas, Englsih] ("Go fetch me some of your father's gold,") BL listed as London? 1710? [1780 date confirmed]
1. takes her to North Lands (see A)
2. Features, Pretty Polly and false knight
3. father's gold, mother's fee,
4. "He fetchd the sickle, to crop the nettle"
5. 'Swim on, swim on, thou false knight"
6. She rides to her "father's house"; father and parrot.

C. "Western Tragedy," (ref. Motherwell, 1749) ["Have ye not heard of (a bludy/bloody knight)
1. Is allegedly based on fact, a historical ballad.
2. Aslo titled "The historical ballad of May Culzean: founded on fact" or after the various names of the maid-- "May Colyean (MacQueen)" etc.
3. Begins with the question "Have ye not heard of (a bludy/bloody knight?"
4. He is "fause (false) Sir John? Wha liv’d in the west country," she is May Culzean, May Colvin, May Collean, or May Collin.
5. Has burial of False Sir John at the end.

D. "May Colven" David Herd, Scottish, published 1776. ("False Sir John a-wooing came,") about 17 stanzas.
1 begins: False Sir John a wooing came; she is May Colven or similarly named
2 He woo'd her butt, he woo'd her ben,
3. They ride and stop at a "rock by the sea."
4. Where he has "drowned seven young ladies" or "seven king's daughters"
5. She "came home to her father's bower"
6. At the end the "king" in is bed chamber.

F. "The Knight and the Chief's Daughter" Irish, learned about 1790 ("Now steal me some of your father's gold") ["willow tree" texts] late 1700s Ireland.
1. She is "pretty colleen," he is false knight (villain)
2. She "steals" father's gold
3. He turned his face to the "willow tree."

G. "The Water o Wearie's Well" early 1800s (Step in, step in, my lady fair,) an Edinburgh variant with incremental immersion in the water of Wearie's Well located in Edinburgh.
1. She is "lady fair," or "King's daughter"
2. He asks her to "Wide in, wide in, my lady fair," and "No harm shall thee befall"
3. "The first step that she stepped in, She stepped to the knee;" then "middle," then "chin."
4. She offers a kiss then Knight is pulled off his horse.
5. She swims "to dry land."

Some of Irish versions with the "pretty colleen" identifier (see: US versions given by Barry in the early 1900s) have a "take you to Scotland" identifier (resembling the "North land" identifier of Outlandish Knight) where he promises, "there I'll marry thee." The same "Scotland" opening is found in other versions. The Scottish versions do not mention "marriage" as an enticement.

Some American versions have the Scottish identifier "He followed me up" and the English name "Pretty Polly" which shows the modifiers have become mixed over time. In some cases the identifiers have become floating stanzas and no longer define a specific ballad type. Other American versions are missing the opening stanza(s) and have the generic core stanzas but are impossible to categorize. They are considered "Generic Versions: Reductions" (see: list of complete versions at top of this page). Complete ballads are categorized at the top of this page-- fragments are found under US/Canada and British pages-- see "Contents."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:33 PM

Had a good read through Scarborough and although I don't know a great deal about African American songs I can't find anything else that looks suspicious. Why would she do this just to one ballad? Very puzzling! All other fabricators I've come across, and there are many, certainly dabbled at length.

Richie, can you please keep a look out for other references to this version and indeed any other suspicious -looking versions of 4?

The only place where all 3 variants were found together was ESPB in 1882
unless he gave all 3 in his earlier collection? I don't have the earlier volumes from the 1860s but they're probably online somewhere.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 05:15 PM

I've checked all the usual suspects for any collation of A, B and E and there are none. There are plenty of versions with extra literary interference but none are really collations.

As you might expect I don't put any store in the Harris fragments at all. They must have been taken from Buchan.

Unless there are other American versions with similar collation of 3 different ballads, 2 of them already concocted, then, as with previous examples we've discussed, the Texas collation must come heavily under suspicion.

Mick, as usual, brilliant! Many thanks.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 04:13 PM

Hi Steve,

As far as I know, Scarborough did not alter texts or knowingly provide faulty information. She just didn't know the background of many ballads she collected. Also, her African-American ballad (a few posts back) has not been related to Wearie's Well by anyone previously. Although I have not spent the time to get the details of the source-- Amelia Harris may have learned her version(Child's Bc) in Perth from her nurse in the late 1700s-- Child just lists the Harris MSS as the source. I assume it was written down by her daughter(s) by mid-1800's (when the missing MSS were recreated by the sisters- can't remember details now). I know part of Buchan's version was recreated by Buchan or his "source" singer but I don't think the whole ballad version was-- just my opinion.

I'd rather keep this thread open (and start on Earl Brand) until we get to 100 or so posts so we don't have too many threads. I'm trying to give the Carpenter versions but am working on all the UK versions so for Child 4, it took me a while.

As always I appreciate your knowledge, suggestions and opinions -- and the expert advice,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:43 PM

Hi,

The headnotes are finished for Child 4: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/english-and-other-versions-4-lady-isabel-.aspx

I have around 400 versions and am categorizing them now by listing them at the beginning- it's been a struggle ;)

I'll start working on Earl Brand/Lord Douglas and need to go over all the Carpenter versions so I can answer Steve's question.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:37 PM

Steve

You can download Scarborough here: On The Trail Of Negro Folk Songs

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:57 PM

Okay a quick and simple analysis of the sources stanza by stanza.
1-5 paraphrase 'Outlandish knight'.
6 is found only in A and continental versions whence Buchan took it.
7-11 are all derived from Buchan's B version. (The irony is that Buchan has been Buchanised!)
12-14 paraphrase 'Outlandish Knight'.

Now if we can find a composite from say 1850 that matches then fair enough, 25 years from print to oral is nothing, but if not then Scarborough herself comes under strong suspicion!

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:52 PM

Richie,
Once again can I please recommend you start a new thread when you move on to 7. Those long threads take a long time to digest and anyone looking to follow a particular ballad can find it more easily if it has its own thread.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:44 PM

Hmmmm! Something fishy here! 4B as we've already established is 99% certain a one-off Peter Buchan fabrication, as is 4A. I haven't got Scarborough but I'm going to be looking hard for a copy now. Now if she had learnt it c1875 that's before Child published Part 1 in 1882 so the only other source would be Buchan's Ancient Ballads of the North of Scotland, or perhaps more likely a composite version using all the versions to hand. I'll investigate this further.

As we have seen occasionally with the likes of Gainer and Reed-Smith when collectors are being paid/receiving academic kudos to come up with interesting/different versions, it can also lead to fabrication.

Whatever this Texas version is it can only realistically be derived from a composite.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 12:54 PM

Hi,

As you can imagine I'm still finishing up Child 4, but the end is near!

Here's an interesting version of Child 4B, Wearies Well (incremental depths of the water), sung by and old African-American woman in Waco Texas, as learned c1875, from The Trail Of Negro Folk-Songs; Dorothy Scarborough 1925:

There was a tall an' handsome man,
Who come a-courtin' me.
He said, "Steal out atter dark to-night
An' come a-ridin' with me, with me,
An' come a-ridin' with me.

"An' you may ride your milk-white steed
An' I my apple bay."
We rid out from my mother's house
Three hours befo' de day, de day,
Three hours befo' de day.

I mounted on my milk-white steed
And he rode his apple bay.
We rid on til we got to the ocean,
An' den my lover say, lover say,
An' den my lover say:

"Sit down, sit down, sweetheart," he say,
"An' listen you to me.
Pull off dat golden robe you wears
An' fold hit on yo' knee, yo' knee,
An' fold hit on yo' knee."

I ax him why my golden robe
Must be folded on his knee.
"It is too precious to be rotted away
By the salt water sea, water sea,
By the salt water sea."

I say, "Oh, sweetheart, carry me back home,
My mother for to see,
For I'm a-feared I'll drowned be
In this salt water sea, water sea,
In this salt water sea."

He tuck my hand and drug me in
I say, "Oh, sweetheart, take me back!
The water's up to my feet, my feet,
The water's up to my feet."

He smile at me an' draw me on,
"Come on, sweetheart, sweetheart,
We soon will be across the stream,
We 've reached the deepest part, deepest part,
We've reached the deepest part."

As I went on I cry an' say,
"The water's up to my knees!
Oh, take me home! I'm a-feared to be drowned
In this salt water sea, water sea,
In this salt water sea."

He pull me on an' say, "Sweetheart,
Lay all your fears aside.
We soon will be across it now
We 've reached the deepest tide, deepest tide,
We've reached the deepest tide."

I sank down in the stream an' cry,
"The water's up to my waist."
He pull at me an' drug me on;
He say, "Make haste, make haste, make haste."
He say, "Make haste, make haste."

I cry to him, "The water's up to my neck."
"Lay all your fears aside.
We soon will be across it now,
We 've reached the deepest tide, deepest tide,
We've reached the deepest tide."

I caught hol' of de tail of my milk-white steed,
He was drowned wid his apple bay.
I pulled out of de water an' landed at my mother's house
An hour befo' de day, de day,
An hour befo' de day.

My mother say, "Pretty Polly, who is dat,
A-movin' softily?"
An' I say to my Polly, "Pretty Polly,
Don't you tell no tales on me, on me,
Don't you tell no tales on me."

An' my mother say, "Is dat you, Polly?
Up so early befo' day?"
"Oh, dat mus' be a kitty at yo' door,"
Is all my Polly say, Polly say,
Is all my Polly say.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 09:41 AM

Are they all 'Douglas tragedy'?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 06:02 PM

Yes, it's a shame Child put this series of ballads under one number. They are clearly separate songs that tell the same story. Had he featured them later in the collection I'm sure he would have at least separated Earl Brand from The Douglas Tragedy.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 03:18 PM

Hi,

The next Carpenter versions are found under Child No. 7, Earl Brand with a master title, "Douglas Tragedy," Roud 23.

This is the first page of the Ross version (James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/F, p. 08091)- I'll add more soon.

The Douglas Tragedy- sung by William Ross of Balquhindochy, by Turriff, learned about 1880.

1. "Oh, come doon the stairs, Lord Douglas," she cried,
Put on your armour so bright,
Ne'er let it be said that a daughter o' thine,
should be married to a lord or a knight.

2. "Oh, come doon the stairs, ye seven sons so bold,
Put on your armour so bright,
And tak' better care of your youngest sister dear,
For your eldest is away last night."

3. He [Lord William] has mounted her on his milk-white steed,
Himsel' on the dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hangin' doon by his side,
So lightly as they both rode away.

4. They rode on, an' on they rode,
By the light o' the moon so clear,
It was then that he spied her seven brethren bold,
It was then she began for to fear.

5. Lord William looked over his left shoulder,
To see what he could see,
It was then that he spied her seven brethren bold,
Comin' ridin' doon by the sea.

6. "Oh hold my steed, Lady Margaret," he cried,
"Oh hold it with your hand,
And I will fight your seven brethren bold
And your father I will make stand."

7. She held his steed with her milk-white hand,
And she never shed a tear,
Until she saw her seven brethren fall,
It was then she began to fear.

8. "Leave off, leave off," Lord William," she cried,
"Your strokes are wondrous sair,
Plenty of sweethearts I will get,
But a father I will never get nae mair."

9. She's ta'en out her handkerchief,
Doon in yonder lowlands so fine,
And she has wiped his bloody wounds,
They were redder than the wine.

10. They rode on, an' on they rode,
It was still by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to a clear running stream,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

11. They both lighted doon for to tak a drink,
O' the waters that ran so clear.
It was then that she spied guide's heart blood,
It was then she began for to fear.

12. "Hold up, hold up Lord William," she cried,
"I'm afraid you have been slain."
"It's only but my scarlet cloak,
That shines on the waters so plain."

13. He's mounted her on his milk-white steed,
Himsel on the dapple grey,
Wi' his bugle horn hanging down by his side,
So sadly they both rode away.

14. They rode on, an' on they rode,
It was still by the light of the the moon,
Until they came to his own mother's door,
It was there that they both lighted doon.

15. "Rise up, rise up, Lady mother, he cried,
"Rise up and let me in.
Rise up, rise up, for this very night,
My fair lady I did win."

16. "Mak my bed, Lady mother," he cried,
Mak it broad an' deep,
Place Lady Margaret at my back,
And the sounder I shall sleep."

17. But Lord William was dead long before midnight,
Lady Margaret long ere day,
And may ilka twa that go thegither,
May they have better luck than they.

18. Lord William was buried in St. Mary's kirk yard,
Lady Margaret in St. Mary's square,
And oot o' the lady's grave there grew a red rose,
And oot o' the knight's a sweet briar.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 10:42 AM

Yes the parrot/maid cross-over for 'Polly' seems to be quite common. I think the girl was called Polly first but probably neither in the original.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 09:36 AM

Hi,

James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/M, pp. 06999-07000. Both the maid and parrot are named "pretty Pollee." Stanza 14 was missing two lines, filled in with standard text.

Outlandish Knight- sung by William Newman of Stanway Hill, Gloucestershire, England. Collected by Carpenter about 1930.

1. An outlandish knight came from the north land
He came a-'ooing me;
Said he would take me to a distant land,
An' there he would marry me.

2   "He asked her for some of her father's gold,
An' some of her mother's fee,
An' two of the best nags out of the stable,
Where there stands thirty an' three."

3    She fetched him some of her father's gold,
An' some of her mother's fee,
An' two of the very best nags out o' the stable,
Where there stand thirty an' three.

4    She mounted her on her milk-white horse,
An' he on the dapple grey;
They rode till they came to a waterside,
Three hours before it was day.

5    "Light off, light off thy milk-white steed,
An' deliver him unto me;
For six pretty maidens I've drowned here,
An' thou the seventh shalt be.

6   "Pull off, pull off thy silken gown,
An' deliver it unto me;
For it is too rich an' too gay
To be buried all in the salt sea."

7   "If I must pull off my silken gown,
Pray turn your back unto me;
For it is not fittin' a man like you
An undressed woman should see."

8    He turned his back towards her
An' viewed the river so green;
She took him round the middle so small,
An' bundled him into the stream.

9    He growped high and he growped low,
Until he came to the side;
"Take hold of my hand, my fair lady,
An' thou shalt be my bride."

10   "Lie there, lie there, you false-hearted man,
Lie there instead of me;
For six pretty maids you've drowned here,
An' the seventh has drowned thee.'

11    She mounted on her lily-white steed,
An' led the dapple grey;
She rode till she came to her own father's house,
Three hours before it was day.

12    The parrot being up in the window so high,
An' hering the missus did say,
"What ails thee, what ails thee, my pretty lady
That you should tarry so long before day?"

13 Her father being up in the chamber so high,
An' hearing the parrot did say,
"What ails thee, what ails thee, my pretty Pollee,
That you prattle so long before day?"

14 ["It's no laughing matter,"] the parrot did say,
["That so loudly I called unto thee,]
The cat being up in the plum so high,
I thought he would have had me."

15    "Well turned, well turned, my pretty Pollee,
Well turned, well turned," said she;
"Thy cage shall be made of the glittering gold,
An' the door of the best ivory."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 09:20 AM

Hi Richie,
Is that 'Lord Lovel' form common in the States? Intriguing!

Just a suggestion. As all but 2 of the States versions are obviously derived from 'The Outlandish Knight' where a local title is lacking or the collector has used his/her own editorial title why not use the obvious (The Outlandish knight) in brackets to indicate it is editorial?

In most instances I use Child's titles but this is one case where I prefer to use the most commonly recognised title. (I totally refuse to use the spurious title 'Ed***d' for unlucky 13.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 09:05 AM

Hi,

Single stanza of text from: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/7/1/C, p. 10674. Uses lord Lovel form.

Lady Isabel- sung by Professor G. R. Madison of Farmington, NC, about 1939. Collected or sent to Carpenter.

He jumped on a double-down black,
And she on the dapple grey;
They rode till they got to the broad waters,
Three hours before it was day, day,
Three hours before it was day.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 08:25 AM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/E, pp. 11721-11722
Reference Code        AFC 1972/001, MS pp. 04924- 04926. Parrot is named Polly, missing the "prattle" stanza

Outlandish Knight- sung by Mrs Sarah Phelps of Avening, Stroud, Gloucestershire, England. Collected by Carpenter about 1930. Learned as a girl over 50 years ago; from mother, and neighbors; never learned from print.

1. An outlandish knight came from the northwest
He came a-'ooing me;
He told me he'd take me unto the northwest,
An' there he would marry me.

2   "Go fetch me some of your father's gold,
An' some of your mother's fee,
An' two of the best nags out of the stable,
Where there stands thirty an' three."

3    She fetched him some of her father's gold,
An' some of her mother's fee,
An' two of the very best nags out of the stable,
Where there stood thirty an' three.

4    She mounted her on her lily-white steed,
He on the dapple grey;
They rode till they came unto the seaside,
Three hours before it was day.

5    "Mount off, mount off thy lily-white steed,
An' deliver it unto me;
For six pretty maidens have I drowned here,
An' the seventh thou shalt be.

6   "Take off, take off thy silken dress,
An' deliver it unto me;
For I thinks it looks too rich by far
To rot all in the salt sea."

7   "If I must take off my silken dress,
Pray turn your back to me;
For it is not fitting that such a ruffian
A naked woman should see."

8    He turned his back towards her
An' viewed the leaves so green;
She caught him round the middle so small,
An' bundled him into the sea.

9    He growped high and he growped low,
Until he came to the side;
"Take hoult o' my hand, my pretty lady,
An' I will make you my bride.'

10   "Lie there, lie there, you false-hearted man,
Lie there instead of me;
For if six pretty maids thou hast drowned here,
The seventh hath drowned thee.'

11    She mounted on her lily-white steed,
An' led the debble grey;
She rode till she came to her own father's door,
Three hours before it was day.

12    The parrot being up in the window so high,
An' seein' his lady, did say,
"I fear that some ruffian hath led you astray,
That you've tarried so long away."

13 The king being up in the chamber so high,
An' hearin' the parrot did say,
"What ails you, what ails you, my pretty Polly,
That you prattle so long before day?"

14 "It's no laughing matter," the parrot replied,
"That so loudly I called unto thee,
For the cats have gotten into the window so high,
An' I'm afraid they will have me."

15    "Well turned, well turned, my pretty Polly,
Well turned, well turned for me;
Thy cage shall be made of some glittering gold,
An' the door of the best ivory."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 12:05 AM

Hi,

This US version, titled the generic titles Fause Sir John (Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight) uses the Lord Lovel form.

My title is the first line, replacing the generic titles. From the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/7/1/C, pp. 10639-10642. The stanzas are not in the correct order and the action is confusing.

O what's the matter, my pretty Polly- sung by Mrs Becky F. Jones of Route 1, box 122 of Cary, NC, c. 1939

"O what's the matter, my pretty Polly,
That you sing so loud before it's day?"
You've come riding your father's best grey nag,
And a-leading of the tabby grey, grey, grey,
And a-leading of the tabby grey.

CHORUS: "O hush, hush pretty parrot bird,
Pray don't tell no tales on me,
For your cage shall be lined with the brightest leaves of gold,
Swing on the green willow tree, tree,
And swing on the green willow tree."

"O what's the matter, my pretty Polly,
That you sing so loud before it's day?
There comes a cat all to my window,
Caused Polly for to drive him away, away,
Caused Polly for to drive him away."

CHORUS

"O hold your hands, my pretty Polly,
O hold your hands to me,
For my body will be drowned in the cold water deep
And sink to the bottom of the sea, sea,
And sink to the bottom of the sea."

"Lie there, lie there you false lying villyan!
Lie there in the room of me,
For here you have drowned six kings daughters,
And you are the seven one shall be, be,
And you are the seven one shall be."

CHORUS

So she mounted her father's best grey nag,
Leading of the tabby grey,
She rode to her father's stable door,
Three long hours before it was day, day,
Three long hours before it was day.

"O what is the matter, my pretty Polly,
That you ride so long before it is day?
You come riding into your father's stable door,
Three long hours before it was day, day,
Three long hours before it was day."

CHORUS

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 06:22 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/N, pp. 08474-08475
Reference Code        AFC 1972/001, MS pp. 04929- 04931. Standard version missing one stanza, the "prattle" stanza.

Outlandish Knight- sung William Hands of Willersley, Glouchester, England. Collected by Carpenter about 1930

1. An outlandish knight came from the northlands
An' he came a-wooing to me;
He told me he'd take me unto the northlands,
An' there he would marry me.

2   "Go fetch me some of your father's gold,
An' some of your mother's fee,
An' two of the best nags out of the stable,
Where there stands thirty an' three."

3    She fetched him some of her father's gold,
An' some of her mother's fee,
An' two of the best nags out of the stable,
Where there stood thirty an' three.

4    She mounted her on her milk-white steed,
An' he on the dapple grey;
They rode till they came unto the seaside,
Three hours before it was day.

5    "Mount off, mount off thy milk-white steed,
An' deliver it unto me;
For six pretty maidens have I drowned here,
An' thou the seventh one thou shalt be.

6   "Pull off, pull off thy silken gown,
An' deliver it unto me;
Methinks that's too rich an' costly
To rot all in the salt sea.

7    'Pull off, pull off thy Holland smock,
An' deliver them unto me;
For I think it they are too rich an' costly
To rot all in the salt sea.

8   "If I must pull off my Holland smock,
Pray turn your back unto me;
For it's not fitting that such a ruffian
A naked woman should see."

9    He turned his back right unto her
An' gazed at the leaves so green;
She caught him round the middle so small,
An' plunged him into the stream.

10    He grooped high and he grooped low,
Until he came to the side;
"Catch hold of my hand, my pretty Polly,
An' I'll make you my bride.'

11   "Lie there, lie there, you false-hearted knight,
Lie there instead o' me;
For six pretty maidens have you drowned here,
But the seventh hath drowned thee.'

12    She mounted on her milk-white steed,
An' led the dapple grey;
She rode till she came to her own father's hall,
Three hours before it was day.

13    The parrot being up in the window so high,
An' hearing his lady, did say,
"I fear that some ruffian hath led you astray,
That you have tarry so long before day."

14 Her father being up in the chamber so high,
An' hearing the parrot did say,
"What ails you, what ails you, my pretty parrot,
That you prattle so long before day?"

15 "It's no laughing matter," the parrot did say,
"So loudly I cry unto thee,
The cat has gotten up in the window so high,
An' I was afraid he would have me."

16    'Well answered, well answered, my pretty parrot,
Well answered back for me;
Thy cage shall be made of the glittering gold,
An' the door of the best ivory."

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 05:35 PM

Hi,

Single stanza with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/233, Disc Side 227, 04:21; AFC 1972/001, MS p. 08479. Notes: William Butler was aged 75 at the time Carpenter collected from him. (p.09773)

The Outlandish Knight- sung by William Butler of 2 New Road, Bampton (p.09773.) near Bampton in the Bush, c. 1930.

No prittle nor prattle, my pretty Polly
Nor tell no tales of me;
And thy cage shall be made of the glittering gold,
And thy door of the best ivory.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 01:53 PM

Hi Richard,

The several mysterious US texts which have appeared since c. 1950 with the "Willow Tree" title (see 4G above which also has "willow tree") seem to be of recent manufacture and have not been documented earlier. One curiously is from a Polish immigrant from NY, which may be the original. Peggy Seeger also recorded a version.

The Willow Tree (American Version) as posted on John Renfro Davis' site: The Contemplator

There was a youth, a cruel youth,
Who lived beside the sea,
Six little maidens he drowned there
By the lonely willow tree.

As he walked o'er with Sally Brown,
As he walked o'er with she,
And evil thought came to him there,
By the lonely willow tree.

O turn you back to the water's side,
And face the willow tree,
Six little maidens I've drowned here,
And you the seventh shall be.

Take off, take off, your golden crown,
Take off your gown, cried he.
For though I am going to murder you
I would not spoil your finery.

Oh, turn around, you false young man,
Oh turn around, cried she,
For 'tis not meet that such a youth
A naked woman should you see.

He turned around, that false young man,
And faced the willow tree,
And seizing him boldly in both her arms,
She threw him into the sea.

Lie there, lie there, you false young man,
Lie there, lie there, cried she,
Six little maidens you've drowned here,
Now keep them company!

He sank beneath the icy waves,
He sank down into the sea,
And no living thing wept a tear for him,
Save the lonely willow tree.

* * * *

Hi Steve,

TY for the black-letter dates. You're right of course about the black-letter reports being unreliable. Dixon didn't say he had a copy only that he'd "seen black-letter copies" - plural. The other informant, EMUN, said he had a copy.

Barry's versions can't be identified as from the 1700s, one goes back he says, "three generations" which is probably early 1800s. Barry has exaggerated early dates so I'm assume he meant the date as an "early arrival" with the early settlers to be late 1600s, early 1700s.

The British Library date of "1710?" was assigned in the late 1800s and Child added that date in his additions and corrections. Usually the guestimated date wouldn't be 70 years off. Still, the "1710?" date may not be an accurate date-- leaving us with confirmed late 1700s dates and the possibility of a missing black-letter version of Outlandish Knight,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:08 PM

You mention Barry's 2 versions from Mass. & Maine as being 'early'. How early? We need to remember that oral tradition can work very quickly even across oceans. It would be nothing for an English 1780 version to be disseminated in New England by the early 19thc.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:05 PM

Hi
There are lots of difficulties with much of the recently posted conjecture. Without the evidence before us our hands are largely tied. I still find it difficult to believe that two people claim to have seen a black letter copy, one of them such an antiquarian as Dixon, and no copy has apparently survived. Apart from which someone like Dixon would surely have published it or passed it on to the likes of Furnivall, Chappell or Ebsworth to publish.

Richard Marshall would have been later 18thc and a printing by him would be very plausible.

It is quite difficult to say with any accuracy when black letter finally died out. The normal general date is 1700 but some printers would have gone on after this. 1720 looks like a reasonable guess to me. Some of the later 18thc printers right up to 1800 and beyond used the odd blackletter on the title pages of chapbooks, songsters and garlands, but not for the small print. Whereas a useful number of 1680s 90s broadsides were dated very few ballads were dated after 1700.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 01:39 AM

Richie,
> Richard-- This is what I have for 4G:

Thank you. NOW I have found it in volume II. I had made the mistake of looking at the "Outlandish knight" entries in the index, which only give volumes I and V, instead of "Lady Isabel and the Elf-knight".

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 04:23 PM

Hi Steve,

When were black-letter broadsides last printed? Isn't 1720 the latest? If there were a black letter of Outlandish Knight without imprint what would be a reasonable range of dates or is that impossible to tell without examination?

Richard-- This is what I have for 4G:

'The Knight and the Chief's Daughter'- Child 4G; British Museum, Manuscript Addit. 20094, communicated to Mr. T. Crofton Croker in 1829, as remembered by Mr. W. Pigott Rogers, and believed by Mr. Rogers to have been learned by him from an Irish nursery-maid. No date given when Rogers first learned this but estimated to be from late 1700s.

1    'Now steal me some of your father's gold,
And some of your mother's fee,
And steal the best steed in your father's stable,
Where there lie thirty three.'

2    She stole him some of her father's gold,
And some of her mother's fee,
And she stole the best steed from her father's stable,
Where there lay thirty three.

3    And she rode on the milk-white steed,
And he on the barb so grey,
Until they came to the green, green wood,
Three hours before it was day.

4    'Alight, alight, my pretty colleen,
Alight immediately,
For six knight's daughters I drowned here,
And thou the seventh shall be.'

5    'Oh hold your tongue, you false knight villain,
Oh hold your tongue,' said she;
'Twas you that promised to marry me,
For some of my father's fee.'

6    'Strip off, strip off your jewels so rare,
And give them all to me;
I think them too rich and too costly by far
To rot in the sand with thee.'

7    'Oh turn away, thou false knight villain,
Oh turn away from me;
Oh turn away, with your back to the cliff,
And your face to the willow-tree.'

8    He turned about, with his back to the cliff,
And his face to the willow-tree;
So sudden she took him up in her arms,
And threw him into the sea.

9    'Lie there, lie there, thou false knight villain,
Lie there instead of me;
'T was you that promised to marry me,
For some of my father's fee.'

10    'Oh take me by the arm, my dear,
And hold me by the hand,
And you shall be my gay lady,
And the queen of all Scotland.'

11    'I'll not take you by the arm, my dear,
Nor hold you by the hand;
And I won't be your gay lady,
And the queen of all Scotland.'

12    And she rode on the milk-white steed,
And led the barb so grey,
Until she came back to her father's castle,
One hour before it was day.

13    And out then spoke her parrot so green,
From the cage wherein she lay:
Where have you now been, my pretty colleen,
This long, long summer's day?

14    'Oh hold your tongue, my favourite bird,
And tell no tales on me;
Your cage I will make of the beaten gold,
And hang in the willow-tree.'

15    Out then spoke her father dear,
From the chamber where he lay:
Oh what hath befallen my favourite bird,
That she calls so loud for day?

16    'Tis nothing at all, good lord,' she said,
'Tis nothing at all indeed;
It was only the cat came to my cage-door,
And I called my pretty colleen.'

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 04:14 PM

Hi,

The following is a quote from J. H. Dixon in Notes and Queries, April 11, 1868, p. 344. In this post he says he was the author of the 1827 Hone version, which is heavily reworked- Dixon also at a young age became as a friend of John Pitts the printer who said the broadside dates back to John Marshall, Pitts' mentor (at least late 1700s). Dixon, without offering proof, also claims to have seen "Black-letter copies" of Outlandish Knight.

"THE OUTLANDISH KNIGHT." (4th S. I. 221.)

The article in Hone, quoted by your correspondent, was a juvenile contribution by myself. He might have known this from a note to "Wearies' Well" (Scottish Traditional Versions, Percy Society's publications). He will also find, from a note inserted at p. 64 (Ballads of the Peasantry, &c, second edition), that an old copy of the original bullad is preserved in the Roxburgh collection (Museum Library). I have also seen black-letter copies. The ballad is very old, and perfectly genuine; to suppose it a "modern antique," is an absurdity. As I am about to publish at Bristol a work to be entitled The Redclyjfe Book of Ballads, I shall say little more on this subject. Let it suffice for the present to remark that I have a Swiss-German ballad, "Das Giiggibader Lied," and an Italian ballad, " La bela Monfrejna," on a similar theme. Both ballads are very old, and written in patois—the first-named in the patois of Argovie, the second in that of Piemont. Full particulars will be given in the Redclyffe Book of Ballads. When I sent the ottered ballad to Hone, the remarks quoted were perfectly true, and so they are now. The gentleman from whom I obtained my copy of the original was a Mr. Richardson, of Berwick, a stock-broker, who died in London many years ago—I think at his residence near Deptford in Kent.

My visit to Mr. Pitt's led to an intimacy between us. He was at that time quite blind. I was somewhat surprised to find in the ballad printer of Seven Dials a gentlemanly well-educated man, with a wonderful stock of information on ballad and chap-book literature.

J. H. Dixon.

Florence.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 02:56 PM

Richie 11 Apr 18 - 11:26 AM
> Child G, the Irish "The Knight and the Chief's Daughter" has "my colleen" and introduces "willow tree" found in later traditional versions in the US.

What am I missing? Where is Child 4G to be found?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:05 AM

Hi,

According to Barry (British Ballads from Maine, 1929): "The ballad seems to be an early arrival in America, as evidenced from its wide dispersion from purely English sources."

Two early versions of Child F (False Knight Outwitted) with the "nettles" stanza are given by Barry from Mass. and Maine which makes me wonder if the 1710? date is accurate.

The "pretty Polly" versions are all English source versions derived ultimately from the two broadsides and their unknown antecedents-- such as the supposed black-letter possessed by EMUN in 1851.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 08:32 AM

Hi,

The 1868 Notes and Queries question is not to Emun's post but to Hone's 1927 version which dates Outlandish Knight back to John Marshall to the 1700s via a conversion with John Pitts who said it was one of his earliest prints (c. 1802):

What I want to know is this: Can any contributor to “N. & Q.” prove that “The Outlandish Knight” is not a modern antique? I fancy I have seen in Blackwood [May 1847] a ballad so called, but may be mistaken. Certainly there is a very suspicious resemblance in style between the alleged old ballad and its modern sequel, and I should like to know on what evidence the alleged antiquity rests. I appeal particularly to MR. WILLIAM CHAPPELL, Mr. JAMES HENRY Dixon, and DR. RIMBAULT.
- R. W. DIXON. Seaton-Carew co. Durham

As far as I know no response to Dixon query was made. However in 1880 Child himself was trying to track down the black-letter mentioned by Emun:


Ballad Of "May Culzean; Or, False Sir John."—I want very much an exact copy of the black-letter broadside which was in the possession of your Birmingham correspondent Emun when he wrote to "N. & Q.," 1" S. iii. 208; also of the printed stall ballad, of about 1749, entitled The Western Tragedy, which is mentioned by Motherwell at p. lxx of the Introduction to his Minstrelsy; and I should be glad to have the later stall print called The Historical Ballad of May Culzean, referred to by Motherwell at the same place. To prevent misunderstanding, I will say that I have the Roxburghe copy, and all that are printed in collections. F. J. Child.

Harvard College, Cambridge, Mass., U.S.A.

* * * *

There is a chapbook copy of Western Tragedy dated 1790 held the Library of Scotland and they are willing to sell me a copy which I should get soon. Not sure why they just don't include it in their collection online. I've already posted (earlier in this thread) The Historical Ballad of May Culzean. The Harvard copy of Western Tragedy is hung up by red tape-- I need to talk to the right people at the library.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 11:07 PM

Hi Steve,

I assume (but you known this better than I) that black-letter broadsides are dated before about 1720. Is that an accurate date? We know that earlier broadsides of Outlandish Knight (English) were printed-- they just haven't survived. How do we know EMUN did not have an earlier version? As far as False Knight Outwitted the British Library still has 1710? with a proven date of 1780. I have the ballad dated late 1600s and early 1700s without proof. There is a response in Notes and Queries challenging EMUN's claim (I think in 1868) that OK is the earliest predating the Scottish versions. EMUN's conclusion was also our conclusion.

I have felt that the fause knight exerted some power of her to cause her to go away with him besides the charm.

"I had no power for to speak one word,
No tongue to answer nay, nay, nay
No tongue to answer nay."

Still I agree that the False knight is not the devil and this change was added later to make him seem more ominous.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 03:29 PM

There is no suggestion in English forms that the Knight has supernatural powers. I'd need to check but I'm not even sure that many, if any, of the continental versions do. This seems to be a later addition as with other cases of the Scottish redaction adding in the supernatural elements.

Have we identified 'EMUN'? This astounding revelation 'I have by me a copy, in black letter, of the OK.' If that can be verified that would just about settle the case. Having said that the likelihood of a black-letter version being around then and no recollection of it surviving makes me suspicious. The earliest we have is 1780, yes?

Once again, ballads, like their close relatives folk tales, do not need to be plausible. Describers of ballad style often refer to their cartoon-like qualities.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 11:44 AM

Hi,

One point, which goes back to the posts by Steve and Richard Mellish, regards the plausibility of Child 4:

The maid pushes the Knight in the water and he drowns.

Maybe if he was wearing a full suit of armor it might make sense, but pushing a "false" knight who presumably has supernatural powers into the water (sometimes just a stream) seems an unlikely form of demise. There's nothing in the ballad text about the knight being weighed down or not being able to swim-- he just drowns!!!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richie
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 11:26 AM

Hi,

The letter (below) in 1851 Notes and Queries refers to an arrangement by F. Sheldon in which Sheldon's version was chastised by Blackwood as being a poor recreation of the Scottish "May Collean." EMUN points out that Outlandish Knight is the original of "May Collean."

"Notes and Queries: A Medium of Inter-Communication for Literary ...," Volume 3, 1851:

Ballad Editing — The “Outlandish Knight" (Vol. iii., p. 49.).—I was exceedingly glad to see Mr. F. Sheldon's “valuable contribution to our stock of ballad literature” in the hands of Mr. Rimbault, and thought the treatment it received no better than it deserved. Blackwood, May, 1847, reviewed Mr. Sheldon's book, and pointed out several instances of his “godfathership:” among others, his ballad of the “Outlandish Knight,” which he obtained from “a copy in the possession of a gentleman at Newcastle,” was condemned by the reviewer as “a vamped version of the Scotch ballad of ‘May Collean.'" It may be as the reviewer states, but the question I would wish answered is one affecting the reviewer himself; for, if I mistake not, the Southron “Outlandish Knight” is the original of “May Collean” itself. I have by me a copy, in black letter, of the “Outlandish Knight,” English in every respect, and as such differing considerably from Mr. Sheldon's border edition, and from “May Collean;" and, with some slight alterations, the ballad I have is yet popularly known through the midland counties. If any of your correspondents can oblige me with a reference to the first appearance of “May Collean,” sheet or book, I shall esteem it a favour.
EMUN.

Birmingham.

* * * *

As pointed out by Barry and others the Scottish names similar to "May Collean" may be a derivative of "my colleen" or "my callin" both of which are slang for "my girl."

Child G, the Irish "The Knight and the Chief's Daughter" has "my colleen" and introduces "willow tree" found in later traditional versions in the US.

Both of the early English prints (False Knight Outwitted/Outlandish Knight) name the maid, "Pretty Polly" although some reprints have pretty maid(en)."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 09:14 AM

Yes,
I tried quite a few times. It seems to go down regularly on a weekend. Maintenance one presumes.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 07 Apr 18 - 06:04 PM

Steve, I accept those points!

Perhaps we should get back to discussions specific to the Carpenter stuff (now that Mudcat is accessible again. As far as I can see, no-one managed to post anything for nearly eleven hours today.)

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Apr 18 - 05:35 PM

I completely see your point, but similar points could be made with a whole host of ballads. Time scales don't match etc. These pieces were primarily written as entertainment. Like our modern day soaps, a lot of what goes on we wouldn't expect to happen in real life. They seem to lurch from one life-threatening situation to another.

The Cruel Mother kills her babies and on her way home she sees their ghosts, no longer babies, playing ball, and they accuse her.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 07 Apr 18 - 06:00 AM

> They vary in plausibility and ingenuity.

There I agree.

> There is no more suspension of disbelief needed here than with a hundred other ballads, to my mind anyway.

That's where I disagree. The girl certainly needs to pull a cunning trick of some sort, unless someone else is coming to the rescue as in some of the continental variants. But what villain would fall for "turn your back so you don't see me naked", when he would see her anyway when he pushes her into the water? Or "Go and find a sickle to cut those nettles". Does he really believe that she will refuse to walk through some stinging nettles but submit to being drowned?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 06:32 PM

Considering the overall plot we are very likely looking at a late medieval one here. In such times murder to acquire riches would have been quite plausible, and the various tricks used to distract the knight and reverse the situation are the main point of the piece of fiction. They vary in plausibility and ingenuity. There is no more suspension of disbelief needed here than with a hundred other ballads, to my mind anyway. The talking parrot helps set the tone but that's only in English versions. Other talking birds do come in at various points in continental versions.