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BS: News interview for Keith & Bob...
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Subject: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 26 Mar 18 - 02:11 PM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWhiJKjyX6k A respectful debate would be appreciated... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 26 Mar 18 - 02:58 PM btw.. the youtuber who posted this saved me all kinds of aggro working out best way to get a usable transfer off copy protected Sky+ box... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Mar 18 - 03:14 PM What a great corrective to all the utter tripe that we've been enduring all day about this. But let's chill. The fools who are looking for absolutely anything to undermine Corbyn are only strengthening him. The Board Of Deputies and the other factions within the pro-Israel lobby absolutely can't stand anyone who fights for justice for the Palestinians or who criticises the actions of the Israeli regime in any way. They dress up their illiberal anti-free speech agenda as "the new antisemitism." This will be a nine-day wonder, and Corbyn will come out of it enhanced. The anti-Corbynistas have learned nothing from the last election campaign in which personal attacks on a man of integrity were utterly counter-productive. If you get a respectful debate I'll eat my hat. By the way, I looked at a photo of that mural. Had I not heard all this fuss about it I would not have gleaned that some of the men at the table were supposed to be Jews. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned he's explained himself fully, honestly and completely about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: The Sandman Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:09 PM very interesting |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:37 AM Some conspicious absences in this thread...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Iains Date: 27 Mar 18 - 06:06 AM The story must yet evolve. I wait on guido! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Mar 18 - 07:25 AM "Some conspicuous absences in this thread...???" Be careful or you might get what you wish for Punky Corbyn has said that some of those who are appalled at what is happening to the Palestinians are falling into the trap of using antisemitic language This is possibly true but hardly surprising as from the beginning The Israeli Regime has used the Jewish People as a human shield to defend it's policy of ethnic cleansing (an act of antisemitism in itself). Labour first came under attack for antisemitism when Corbyn announced his support for BDS - since then, each specific incident has been linked directly to Israel's anti-BDS campaign - meetings involving some of the accusers in Israel, direct links with pro-regime organisations... BDS, Gaza and the actual and imagined rise in antisemitism Israel's 'Human Shield' policy is now backfiring on the Jewish people as a whole and many "slef-hating" Jews have had the courage to stand up and say so (including the brave man in your link PFR). Hopefully the anti-ethnic cleansing protests will continue - hopefully Corbyn will encourage the labour Party to be part of that Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 27 Mar 18 - 07:49 AM And there you have the reason for my absence on this thread Punky. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Mar 18 - 07:51 AM Whst absence? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Mar 18 - 08:07 AM Bob - that response won't do.. Come on, you should be capable of discussing this issue openly, to any mudcatter. Not just falling back on your history with Jim as an excuse not to engage with the rest of us...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Mar 18 - 08:08 AM Corbyn has drawn the sting by being thoroughly apologetic and contrite. None of your cornered tiger syndrome. He's a lot cleverer, it seems, just by being honest and straightforward, than the baying masses of anti-Palestinians who are constantly trying to undermine him. It won't work, chaps. You're only an antisemite if you try to harm Jews just because they are Jews. I've seen an awful lot of advocates of the Israeli regime harming Jewish communities in recent days, many of them Jews, many not. They are the true antisemites. And make no bones about it: this is all about having it back at people who want justice for the Palestinians. I hate it when people attack Jews because "they're good with money" or "they want world domination," and all the rest. But that is not what this latest firestorm is really about. It's about suppressing support for the Palestinians and even the slightest criticism of a regime that is good to "its own people" and horrendous to those it considers to be tenth-class citizens in their own country and routinely belligerent towards its non-Jewish neighbours over its borders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 27 Mar 18 - 08:26 AM In this matter I take my cues from the aggrieved party not from a bunch of anti-Semites. Here's what they have to say: https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-jewish-leaders-slam-corbyn-for-siding-with-anti-semites/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 27 Mar 18 - 08:42 AM And the other side The Jewish Voice |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Iains Date: 27 Mar 18 - 08:46 AM There is an unfortunate tendency for those that are anti the Israeli government to be automatically labelled antisemitic. Two totally disparate concepts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Mar 18 - 08:52 AM "anti-Semites" And there you have the proof that the Israeli regime are using the Jewish people as a human shield Nobody has accused the Jewish people of the atrocities being carried out, but immediately an Isreali regime supporter accuses anybody suggesting theat it might be an extremist right-wing government of doing so and the accusation of anti semitism is hauled out Can we assume that the Jewish Labour member in Punky's link is also one? This accusation is not only anti-semitic by definition, but it accuses the Jewish people of being extremist right wing. It is hardly surprising that antisemitism is on the rise while supporters of Israel bhave like this Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 27 Mar 18 - 09:24 AM And in today's news: Meanwhile, moderate Labour MPs, appalled by the revelation on Friday that Corbyn had defended an anti-Semitic mural, have voiced their anger and shame with a depth of feeling previously unseen. The Labour leader, charged Dame Margaret Hodge, a highly respected and veteran former Labour minister, had become “the poster boy of anti-Semites everywhere.” John Mann, a fellow Labour MP and the chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group Against Anti-Semitism, branded his own party “rotten to the core” and suggested it was facing an existential threat. Labour, he Tweeted on Monday morning, “ceases to have a reason for existence if it cannot stand up against discrimination and racism.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/corbyns-anti-semitism-apologies-dont-presage-any-genuine-shift-in-his-approach/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Mar 18 - 09:35 AM Corby did this in 2012 - seven years ago and has since apologised - from The Jewish Post "Corbyn, whose critics say has failed to confront the proliferation of antisemitism in the party in his supporters’ ranks since he became its leader in 2015, said in a statement Friday: “I sincerely regret that I did not look more closely at the image” in question when he defended the artist’s artistic freedom in 2012." Up to now, that apology appears to have been accepted - nothing has been said about the incident until now Now it becomes an issue - nothing to do with BDS of course!!!! Give us a break Bobad - this is shit Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Mar 18 - 09:57 AM There is nothing moderate about Margaret Hodge, who has been guilty of multiple mismanagement of many of the roles she's been involved with. She inadvertently gave the BNP favourable publicity in Barking and mishandled child abuse issues for years. She has been one of the leading lights in trying to undermine Corbyn at every turn. She has flipped-flopped like mad over the invasion of Iraq. Totally untrustworthy. John Mann deliberately and dishonestly stage-managed the incident that got Ken Livingstone into hot water. Nice chap. Pick your "moderates" more carefully is my advice! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 27 Mar 18 - 10:16 AM Has anyone looked up what the mural that the fuss is about actually is? The rich men portrayed in the mural sitting around the Monopoly gameboard include the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, the Warburgs and the Morgans. The Rothschilds and the Warburgs are indeed Jews. But the others are not. They are portrayed in exactly the same light as the Warburgs and the Rothschilds, but this is not because of their ethnicity, but because they are all banking magnates. Their portrayal is not anti-Semitic, it is anti-plutocratic. The pyramid in the background is often assumed to embody the legendary ‘Illuminati’, which is often thought to be an undercover world-controlling movement dominated by Jews. But again, this is not correct. The pyramid actually symbolises Freemasonry, and the widely-held (and possibly correct) suspicion that Freemasons often give each other un-earned ‘foot-ups’ up the hierarchy. Freemasonry is not a Jewish movement. And did anyone notice one of the leading lights in the demonstration was none other than the DUPs own Ian Paisley Junior. yep, the anti catholic, anti gay, anti women member for North Antrim. Wonder what axe he has to grind in this??? DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Mar 18 - 10:35 AM This is trivialising antisemitism and is risking the welfare, even the lives of ordinary Jewish people It has never been about attacks on the Jews - it is an effort of the extreme right to neutralise a threat to the Israeli regime from the Labour party THIS INTERESTING ARTICAL from a moderate jewish website paints a picture of how the Israeli extreme right is allining itself with European fascism and is being welcomes with open arms In all this politicking, the Jewish People throughout the world are being more and more targetted for the behaviour of the right wing mob running Israel SOME PRACTICAL EXAMPLES OF ISRAELI/FASCIST ALIGNMENT Worrying or what - not to some people, obviously !!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 27 Mar 18 - 10:37 AM I can't believe that some here are attempting to downplay what is pure Nazi era anti-Semitic imagery........oh, wait a sec, I can believe it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Mar 18 - 10:49 AM "I can't believe that some here are attempting to downplay what is pure Nazi era anti-Semitic imagery." I can't believe some people are ignoring the shift to the extreme right by Israel but you have always defended Israeli extremism How do you feel about the Israelis cosying up to Lepen and the rest of the European jack-booters Bobad? I don't expect a reply - that's support enough for them for me Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Iains Date: 27 Mar 18 - 10:49 AM How many more hours before a forum fairy shuts this thread down? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 27 Mar 18 - 11:04 AM From the same article I quoted from before. By a Jewish writer BTW It has been pointed out that the mural bears a passing resemblance to Nazi propaganda. I do see that, and I agree that it is unfortunate. But again there is a deafeningly-loud fallacy in the argument. Just because the mural has a resemblance to Nazi propaganda, it does not follow that it has to have the same meaning as Nazi propaganda. As I say, it does not. I find the reference to the Freemasons in the mural a bit paranoid, but the fundamental meaning of the picture is visibly anti-elitism, and there is no reason to assume that the plutocrats therein are Jewish. I mean, why is there no Star of David in the image? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Mar 18 - 11:09 AM This seems to be a RATIONAL DISCUSSION of the mural from a somewhat unlikely source Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Mar 18 - 11:41 AM Maybe I don't get out enough. I reckon that not one person in twenty walking past that mural would think they were looking at a load of Jewish bankers. I can't see any Jewish symbolism in it all, but then I don't go around thinking that all Jews are hook-nosed bankers out to rule the planet, etc., and never have. In fact, one bloke looks a bit like Alf Garnett from a certain angle... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Mar 18 - 11:45 AM And there's Sir Edward Elgar sitting next to a young Malcolm Muggeridge...and isn't that Jonathan Miller... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Mar 18 - 12:34 PM I'm not defending the mural on any grounds - it is controversial in today's atmosphere, but I do not believe that the intention of the artist was to denigrate the Jewish people any more than the caricatured CITY GENT is an attack on the British people Insensitive maybe, but little more Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Mar 18 - 12:38 PM Me too.. on my 49" TV screen, for the amount of time BBC news flashes up that murial, all I noticed was Alf Garnett... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Mar 18 - 12:40 PM But since when does any politician have the faintest understanding of modern art and it's multilayered meanings...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Mar 18 - 01:09 PM I rather assumed that the eye in a pyramid in the mural represented a reference to the Great Seal of the United States" , where it has always been featured since 1782. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Mar 18 - 01:33 PM Today, I've been preoccupied with sitting on the bog and naps inbetween to recouperate.. 'Use by dates', real men don't give in to 'use by dates'... Anyway I had to rush off after last hasty posting here... The impostant point I need to make is that to my eyes that mural looks so comically crap, I wouldn't waste any time at all either reading it for hidden profound meanings, or searching it for any minute imagery to take deep offence at..... As usual a fuss in a piss pot dragged up from years ago........ |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 27 Mar 18 - 02:54 PM From the inside, I have witnessed the tragedy of some parts of the Corbyn movement – which has so many positive facets – as they were taken into a leader cult, built on populist rhetoric and conspiracy theories. Debate is structured around dangerously vague, conspiratorial ideas of “the establishment,” media control and the banking system. Anti-Semitism is more than just personal, base, a matter of dislike. There is less of a focus on the theory-grounded materialist thinking of previous generations of Labour politicians, which ascribed behaviors and power positions more to the dynamics and dictates of a capitalist system. The bridge between the Jewish community and Labour is on fire. If Labour cares about British Jewry, it must do its best to put it out. Only then will Britain’s Jews consider returning. Why Corbyn Finally Forced This Left-wing Jew to Hand Back His Labour Membership Card |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Mar 18 - 03:02 PM You are not responding to anything put up Bobad - you are not interested in the Jewish people, just the right-wing regime that runs Israel Fine - neer expected you to Some time ago you put up the largest cut-'n-paste I heve ever seen on this forum, setting out to show that muslims are degenerates because of their culture and have been so since pre-Cristian times You drew your information from some of the most extreme right-wing websites - racist madmen And you accuse us of antisemitism Forget it Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 27 Mar 18 - 03:10 PM For every quote such as that one bobad there seems to be an opposing statement. I don't particularly want to get into that pissing contest but, should the need arise, I shall. Feel free to start it but rest assured that any mud you sling shall be countered by a pro Corbyn Jew. PFR, I see the Russian thread has been closed. I guess this one is safe for now but it will only take a couple of posts to flush it down the pan. Sadly I don't think the culprit will ever realise it is him though :-( |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Mar 18 - 03:17 PM Dave - hand on heart, I can say at least we tried with best intentions... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Mar 18 - 03:20 PM ... and considering this thread has been more than clearly sign posted for Keith's specific attention...????? Some respects due to bob for showing up... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 27 Mar 18 - 04:37 PM Lets al sing in unison With my high-starched collar, and my high-topped shoes And my hair piled high upon my head |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Mar 18 - 04:51 PM Kenny - too obscure a reference for me to grasp... unless it's a song for bob...????? But who cares, what a superb treat to listen to... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDDyv9M6M88 |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:00 PM Who's Al and why do we want to sing unicorns with him? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 27 Mar 18 - 06:37 PM Got it in one ... whos Bob? (smiley) Al is shorthand for All & did John Peel have a unicorn ??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Mar 18 - 03:27 AM If he didn't, he deserved one! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 28 Mar 18 - 07:38 AM DtG Oh You are Naughty and I agree with your sentiments. However he was a man of his time, rich and with time to spare kept by the labours of others, sadly little has changed |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Mar 18 - 07:49 AM Up the workers! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Mar 18 - 10:29 AM The OP shows an interview with one of the Labour Jews who still support Corbyn and deny that Labour has become more anti-Semitic. He is in a minority, and Corbyn himself now admits that a problem has arisen. I am astonished that people here deny the anti-Semitism in the mural. Corbyn is unequivocal that it is. "I sincerely regret that I did not look more closely at the image I was commenting on, the contents of which are deeply disturbing and anti-Semitic." ITV and BBC both acknowledge it and warn they are going to show it. Can anyone find any mainstream media organ or commentator who defends it as people here have. It proves that you do not recognise genuine anti-Semitism when you see it. Guardian editorial, " The mural in east London featuring anti-Semitic tropes that sparked the protests should, at any time, have been met with unqualified repudiation." "That two Jewish community organisations – the Board of Deputies and the Jewish Leadership Council – have written in the strongest terms and taken to the streets is a sign not of obsession or partisanship but of fear and desperation." " It does not make the issue minor. Under Mr Corbyn, Labour has not been quick, clear or uncompromising enough to deal with those shameful remaining pockets." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/26/the-guardian-view-on-labour-and-antisemitism-a-leader-must-lead Corbyn, "We recognise that antisemitism has occurred in pockets within the Labour Party, causing pain and hurt to our Jewish community in the Labour Party and the rest of the country. I am sincerely sorry for the pain which has been caused." |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Mar 18 - 10:47 AM Corbyn, “I recognise that antisemitism has surfaced within the Labour party, and has too often been dismissed as simply a matter of a few bad apples,” Guardian, "Labour and the left have an antisemitism problem Under Jeremy Corbyn the party has attracted many activists with views hostile to Jews." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/18/labour-antisemitism-jews-jeremy-corbyn |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 28 Mar 18 - 10:59 AM It's not worth it Keith, it's like trying to discuss climate change with climate change deniers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Mar 18 - 11:14 AM Wonder when he'll talk about "implants" that make Labout party supportes anti-semites? MORE TO IGNORE Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Mar 18 - 11:21 AM Keith & bob - do you personally want Labour to win the next general election and become Government of UK...??? Because stripped of all the hyped up partisan disinformations and distractions, that is the essential crux of the matter... If the answer is 'no' because you are more pro tory, then fair enough, all is understandable. But if you are a labour supporter and want them to win, but place your commitment to fringe issues and allegiences as a higher priority than Labour victory.. then that's just inexplicable an inexcusable... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Mar 18 - 11:26 AM Astonished are you, Keith? Well what I would like you to do is to talk me through that mural in detail and tell me as a casual passer-by how I was supposed to recognise the alleged rampant antisemitism in it. I can't see any Jewish symbolism, any Israeli flag, any special Jewish attire, any Star of David, any of those little round hats, nothing. And I don't want to hear you telling me again about at least twenty people who say it's antisemitic. I want to know how YOU know that it's antisemitic. Jeremy didn't seem to realise thst it was antisemitic when he first saw it and the artist has said that there is no antisemitic intent. Now Keith, I don't want you to tell me anything else right now except for what you see in that mural. Over to you (he said, expecting the usual barrage of obfucating bullshit...) And if you're going to tell me it's about hooked noses, hurry up, cos the corset shop closes in half an hour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Mar 18 - 11:29 AM Obfucating sounds like more fun than obfuscating in a strange kind of way... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Mar 18 - 11:32 AM REPORT on TORY RACISM Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Mar 18 - 11:48 AM AND THE VOTERS Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: David Carter (UK) Date: 28 Mar 18 - 12:11 PM Pfr, I thought everybody here knew that in Keith's case the answer is no. He has many times expressed support for the Tories, Thatcher and brexit. I am no fan of Keith's political stance, but at least he is honest about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Mar 18 - 12:16 PM David - Regarding Keith, that may not be such a simple matter to pin him down on..[wish we could still use emoticons]... ?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Mar 18 - 12:16 PM Steve, I would like you to do is to talk me through that mural in detail No. Much has been written and said about it. You are the only people I have come across in all the coverage who deny its blatant anti-Semitism. Can you find any reputable source who agrees with you? PFR, I am on the middle ground of UK politics, and voted Labour when they occupied that ground. They are too far Left for me now. Note how a group of you dominate these political threads. You all agree with each other, with only Bobert from across the ocean giving a dissenting voice. Do you not welcome an alternative view which happens to be the mainstream, centre view? Would you prefer only extreme views put here? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Mar 18 - 12:19 PM David, He has many times expressed support for the Tories, Thatcher and Brexit Many Labour supporters and members support Brexit, so why is that relevant? I have never supported the Tories here. Please quote me if I have. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Mar 18 - 12:29 PM Can you find any reputable source who agrees with you? Errrr, the artist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Mar 18 - 12:31 PM Me: I would like you to do is to talk me through that mural in detail... Keith: No. Bwahahaha! That's because you can't point to a single aspect of that mural that "looks antisemitic!" As always you rely on your chosen authorities (carefully selected, of course) in order to confirm your bias instead of thinking for yourself: "I don't even have to LOOK at that mural because all my right-wing mates think it's antisemitic so that's good enough for me!" Pathetic. Come along, Keith. What's wrong with the mural in its specifics? Or should we just accept that New Antisemitism is in the eye of the Bibi-apologist beholder? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Mar 18 - 12:42 PM By the way, Keith, I'm not "denying it's blatant antisemitism." Though I confess to be puzzled about "blatant." Would never have remarked on it at all until this row about it flared up and I'm still wondering. And you aren't answering. That's because you can't. The artist says it wasn't meant to be antisemitic. Beethoven said that his Pastoral Symphony was about the joys of the countryside and country life. Would you argue with that as well? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Mar 18 - 12:43 PM Errrr, the artist. Fair point, but he would deny his anti-Semitism. Re the mural, much has been written and said about it in recent days. You are the only people I have come across in all that coverage who deny its blatant anti-Semitism. Can you find any reputable source who agrees with you? Guardian? No. Independent? No. BBC? No Jeremy Corbyn? No. Anyone apart from the artist and you? NO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Mar 18 - 12:46 PM Do you really think you are going to get away with the fact that there is far more antisemitism, bioth among MPs and voters, among the Conservatives than the Labour Party? Dream on boyo!! "I am on the middle ground of UK politics, and voted Labour when they occupied that ground." You are a raving right-wing racist and you voted Labour when it was led by War Criminal Blair You told us that Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Mar 18 - 12:50 PM Keith - I don't deny or claim anything about that mural. I've already stated my stance.. I think it's too comically crap to be bothered looking at it...!!! You've also failed to notice that I am and never have been a member of any political party [which I'm sure I've stated in previous threads over the years] and that my 'hatred' of tories is so obviously piss takingly exagerated for comic effect...!!! My politics are moderately left of centre, except for some key work & welfare, and nationalisation issues where I am much further left.. and on some aspects of law and order I am possibly too far right for even the tory hang em and flog em brigade...!!!!! Seems to me I am just a fairly average bloke.. by no means the demonic extremist of hysterical immaginations... [btw.. Keith I know you want to talk about something, give me time and I will show you that courtesy.. The mrs has just come home after nearly a week with her very religious family, so I will be otherwise occupied...] |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Mar 18 - 12:53 PM oops.."I am not and never have been a member of any political party"... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 28 Mar 18 - 12:54 PM The "Mear One" antisemitic mural: an explanation of the imagery and why it is seen as antisemitic |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Mar 18 - 12:59 PM Fair point, but he would deny his anti-Semitism. And for good reason. It shows a group of bankers, under the symbol of freemasonry, playing monopoly on the backs of the people. Two of the bankers are Jewish. Two are not. Anyone concluding that they are all Jewish by their appearance needs to take a long hard look at their own preconceptions. How anyone can draw any antisemitic connotations from either the pyramid or the monopoly board is beyond me. That on its own should tell us a lot but when we combine that with why this waited for 6 years before it was brought to light, just before the local elections, it shows the whole sad affair just stinks. The right wing establishment and media are running shit scared of another Corbyn victory. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Mar 18 - 01:07 PM Why the imagery is not antisemitic. BTW. Condolences on the demise of the thread PFR. I suppose it is inevitable that it would become toxic.:-( |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Mar 18 - 01:11 PM Do you really think you are going to get away with the fact that there is far more antisemitism, bioth among MPs and voters, among the Conservatives than the Labour Party? If that is true, where are the complaints from Tory Jews? Or Lib Dems or any other party. Dave, The right wing establishment and media Guardian? Independent? BBC? Jeremy Corbyn? Anyone except you and the artist? No, and that proves that you deny blatant anti-Semitism. Shameful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Mar 18 - 01:13 PM Dave - it served it's purpose, and was expendable.. Besides which news on that incident has gone quiet, though mutating into a much bigger global situation requiring a new thread.. maybe...??? But that's for some one else to start as OP.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Mar 18 - 01:17 PM Dave, you can find anything you want on the web. Any publication or person any of us have ever heard of? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 28 Mar 18 - 01:38 PM Note that the link I provided to the explanation of why the mural is anti-Semitic is to a Labour Group and is written by a Labour supporter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Mar 18 - 01:40 PM Keith - back in the early 80s my degree & post grad study involved a few of years of intensive study of 'semiotics' theory and analysis... Tread carefully basing political smears on imagery... It can do a bloke's head in just reading standard text books on the subject.. I would not trust unscrupulous politicians, political bloggers, and fanatical activists to be let loose on such theories and practises... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Mar 18 - 01:49 PM Bob - would you deny a serious jewish artist the use of nazi iconography to express profound ideas in art.. would you simply call that artist an anti semite for doing so...??? There are important questions to be asked about the role of artists exploring themes of religion and politics.. This I propose is too far out of the grasp of petty closed minded agenda ridden mentalities.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Mar 18 - 01:52 PM Tread carefully basing political smears on imagery... The image is anti-Semitic according to Corbyn and the party and every mainstream commentator. Where is the smear in pointing that out? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Mar 18 - 02:02 PM (Labour Deputy Leader Tom)) Watson branded the image a “horrible antisemitic mural that was rightly taken down”. He went on: “Nobody in the Labour Party should have the slightest hesitation in condemning this mural, it’s antisemitic, it’s horrible and I want Jewish members as well as every other member of the Labour Party to feel welcome in our party." https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/corbyn-antisemtic-bone-mcdonald_uk_5ab76a6fe4b0decad04acd8d |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 28 Mar 18 - 02:02 PM The imagery is blatantly anti-Semitic to everyone except those with a vested interest in denying it including the "artist". |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Mar 18 - 02:04 PM "f that is true, where are the complaints from Tory Jews?" You have ghad the facts from independent sources Keith Whay don't the Tory Jews complain - because this campaign has been instigated by the anti BDS mob and the Tories oppose BDS - this is about BDS There is anti-semitism in every section of society Ae you seriously suggesting there are non in the Tory Hierarchy ? The Tory party is traditionally Racist - - you have the list of racist incidents Are they expunging their past and no longer deal in antisemitism as they always have? Are you seriously suggesting that teh Party that was set up originally by Jewish emigres is the only one in Britain with an anti semitism problem - are you really fuvcking insane in your obsessive hatred? How about the thousands of Jews who support Labour and haven't complained - are they Israel's "self-hating Jews" Why do you behave like this and why won't you respond to what is put up? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Mar 18 - 02:06 PM Keith - The point I am making is it is unwise to trust a politician's, and definitely not an agenda driven political commentator's judgement and public pronouncements regarding 'art'... There are far too many levels of cynical politicking at play... ..and it has been pointed out by Corbyn's associates that under pressure he is too kind and generous with apologies to those deviously out to get him.. A 'weakness' easily exploited by his coniving opponents...!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 28 Mar 18 - 02:07 PM Anyone arguing that it isn't anti-Semitic should really pause and take a step back before you find yourself deeper in a place you don't really want to be in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Mar 18 - 02:15 PM Jim, because this campaign has been instigated by the anti BDS mob and the Tories oppose BDS Corbyn also opposes BDS https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/13/jeremy-corbyn-does-not-support-boycott-of-israel-bds-movement Pfr, The point I am making is it is unwise to trust a politician's, and definitely not an agenda driven political commentator's judgement and public pronouncements regarding 'art'... It is condemned by Corbyn, Watson, and the whole Labour Party. To say it is not anti-Semitic is an extreme and racist view. It is shocking that so many here hold such a view. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Mar 18 - 06:54 PM "Anyone arguing that it isn't anti-Semitic should really pause and take a step back before you find yourself deeper in a place you don't really want to be in." ...you left out "or else" from that 'chilling' inferred threat.. Bob - if you are refering to me, I haven't even bothered to express a view one way or the other on the contents and meaning of that dregged up from the past mural. I have simply dismissed it as imho crap art not worth looking at. Not when it was painted, and not now as it is being cynically weaponised in prevailing hysterical news reports. Does that mural still even exist ? Was it painted over years ago ? I don't know.. and guess what.. I don't care.. It is, apart from the current stage managed scandal & furore, most inconsequential in the greater scheme of real world UK politics... away from the realms of wank fest media and lobby groups.. Keith - "To say it is not anti-Semitic is an extreme and racist view. It is shocking that so many here hold such a view." you'r over egging the outrage a bit ... as usual... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 28 Mar 18 - 07:08 PM hysterical news reports. Ah yes, those damn Jews getting hysterical over anti-Semitism again, how dare they. In case you haven't heard Jews are fleeing Europe in numbers not seen since WWII because of rampant anti-Semitism. Do you not think they may be a little touchy on the subject of Nazi imagery painted on walls and a political party that harbours anti-Semites possibly on the verge of forming the next government in the UK? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Mar 18 - 07:12 PM That is a completely ridiculous link, bobad. It reminds me muchly of those people in those threads who think they know what the lyrics of Bright Blue Rose mean, or Raglan Road, and give us their strained and verbose interpretations, ten times more wordy than the song itself. There's a bit of a bottom line here. Neither you nor Keith dare say from your own mouths what is antisemitic about the mural. Keith refuses to answer and you link us to the imaginative burblings of a madman. Well there's plenty about hooked noses in your link I suppose. Flippin' 'eck, how desperate. I know lots of Jews and their average noses are pretty much like everybody else's average noses. You'd have thought that any artist wanting to portray his antisemitic predilections would at least try to include something explicit enough in the picture to quell any doubts as to his intentions. Not only did the artist not do that, he's also protested that he had no antisemitic intent. Well whaddya know... So here we go again. Tell us precisely what you see in the mural that you think is antisemitic. As I said to Keith, don't tell me what somebody else thinks, which is what you've both done so far. Tell me what YOU see, not what somebody else sees. You're OK even if you want to prattle on (as with your link) about hooked noses. Worry not: I took the precaution of buying a spare corset before the shop closed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 28 Mar 18 - 07:18 PM That is a completely ridiculous link, bobad No it is not it clearly demonstrates with numerous examples why the mural is anti-Semitic. The fact that you don't see that is not surprising. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Mar 18 - 07:20 PM "In case you haven't heard Jews are fleeing Europe in numbers not seen since WWII because of rampant anti-Semitism. " Give me those numbers, please. I want to know which European countries they're fleeing from and I want comparative numbers for each year going back for at least ten or twenty years. And I want to know what the economic circumstances were of all the Jews you claim were fleeing, so that I'll know they were fleeing from antisemitism and not something else. As you make the above claim so confidently, I assume that you have those statistics readily to hand. Over to you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Mar 18 - 07:24 PM "Ah yes, those damn Jews getting hysterical over anti-Semitism again, how dare they." bob - whaaaat..???!!! you called them "damn jews" .. what an outrage.. you anti semite...!!! Of course I can see you are being sarcastic and employing irony.. But a more casual reader using bots to search the internet could easily register what you write and add it to a list to condemn out of context as anti semitic... That's how these fake outrages can be made to do their work... Pity any artists working with political and religious irony in the twitter age... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Mar 18 - 07:30 PM "Corbyn also opposes BDS" So? Corbyn is strongly opposed to Israeli State terrorism - BDS is merely a tactic Labour stands to win the next election if the Brexit morons go on behaving as they are - that will never suit Isreal Every accusation of antisemitism you have put up so far has been directly traced back to Israel - BDS, Friends of Israel all linked |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 28 Mar 18 - 07:37 PM I want to know..... Seek and ye shall find. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Mar 18 - 07:41 PM Thing is, I've dedicated several whole sections of my evening trying to get both bobad and Keith to say what they see as antisemitic in that mural. They both refuse to answer that very simple question in spite of the fact that they are both throwing that image at us as a prime example of rampant, Nazi-style antisemitism. I can only conclude that they are both brainlessly copycatting other people who've said it's antisemitic (I mean, have either of them actually LOOKED at the thing??), or they're scared stiff of telling us that it's all about those hooked noses (don't mention it to Vin Garbutt's family...) in case it makes us bust our corsets. This is a definite case of piss or get off the pot. We have two guys here who claim that a mural is rampant antisemitism writ large, but neither of them is capable of uttering a single word off their own bat, not somebody else's, in support. Speaks volumes! Anyone for another obfuscating link or two...? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 28 Mar 18 - 07:47 PM Breaking news from Jeremy (I’m not an anti-Semite in any way, never have been, never will be) Corbyn: Let me say this very bluntly: anti-Semitism is a cancer in our society and it has resurfaced across Europe and in Britain in recent years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Mar 18 - 07:50 PM Whoops - premature Jac again - intrusive little fellow! THIS IS WHAT THIS IS ABOUT Britain cosying up to an ethnic-cleansing state https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/almost-half-of-israeli-jews-want-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-wake-up-call-survey-finds-a6919271.html Your crowd has certainly sold the British people down the Swanee They BUNG a sectarian party with terrorist links a Billion of taxppayers money They SELL 48 FIGHTER PLANES to a despotic state buy wiping out the Yemeni people Now they are working alongside a Jewish State that is working alongside ANTI SEMITIC SCUM And you have supported them wholeheartedly on every step of their shitty decline to extremism You've supported their sexual harassers perverts and you've carried on a two year campaign of lies against their opponents - sexual harassment, antisemitism - every dirty Scabloid Press trick in the book You are a right-wing obsessive Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Mar 18 - 07:55 PM The mural. Keith? Bobad? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Mar 18 - 08:04 PM how long was the mural up for - presuming it's not still there...??? The David Bowie statue has been vandalised after just one day... Bowie was associated with stupid comments about facism back when he was coked up out of his head in the 1970s... Labour politicians better be careful about praising Bowie in the current climate... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 28 Mar 18 - 08:57 PM I was never a big fan of Bowie or of glam rock anyhow even though I must admit that some catchy tunes did come out of the genre. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Mar 18 - 09:26 PM It all right, pfr. The twat Sajid Javid has already accused Momentum of being neo-fascists anyway... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Mar 18 - 09:43 PM I'd as soon consider buying a Jaffa orange from Israel as I would have considered buying an orange from South Africa in apartheid days, and for the very same reasons. I suppose that could well rank me as an anti Semite, in the definition of that term being promoted by the present regime in Israel. I don't like arguments from authority, especially from authority that I don't trust, but even from authority I do trust most of the time. The fact that any number of newspapers or even governments concur in an opinion is in itself pretty irrelevant, whether it comes to the semiotics of murals or conspiracy theories about assassinations, or about Weapons of Mass Desrruction. Does the fact that a group of people lampooned in a mural or cartoon includes some who are seen as Jewish mean it is anti-Semitic? (If a couple were black would that mean it was necessarily racist?) If that was the impact it genuinely had on those who saw it, it was as well it was destroyed, even if that was in fact the last thing in the mind of the creator, and Corbyn was right to change his mind about his initial instinctive resistance to hearing about an act of political censorship against a work of art. It all happened years ago, the mural, it's destruction, Corbyn's initial instinctive reaction to the destruction of the mural, and his more considered opinion. Right now this seems a very synthetic "controversy", part of an orchestrated politically motivated operation aimed at Corbyn and at the overwhelming majority of a Labour Party members who have his back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 03:16 AM Usual tactics I see. Anyone saying the mural is not antisemitic, including the artist, needs to be discounted as only those fitting a rapidly narrowing definition are qualified to make comment. Hoops within hoops. But we all know that the mural itself is not the issue. It is simply a vehicle to discredit Jeremy Corbyn. It did not work last time and it will not work now. We could of course link to all the Jewish commentators that support Corbyn and state that he is not antisemitic. I am more than happy to provide links to such statements of support but I am not going to chase my tale finding more and more of the same to satisfy the same narrowing of definition as above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Mar 18 - 04:00 AM PFR, you'r over egging the outrage a bit ... as usual... No. McDonnell, Watson, Corbyn and many other Labour people have used much stronger language than I have. If it is "inconsequential" you should be telling them not me. Steve, As I said to Keith, don't tell me what somebody else thinks, It is what everyone in your party except you and Dave thinks, so ask your comrades why it is blatantly anti-Semitic. Dave, Anyone saying the mural is not antisemitic, including the artist, needs to be discounted According to your own party, it makes you an anti-Semite. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Mar 18 - 04:18 AM You are ignoring every single fact of this issue again Keith You are not interested in debating Labour antisemitism Keith - just bulldozing it through without evidence or logic, as usual This is what makes you the screaming fanatic you are JIm Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 04:24 AM So, in your own words, how am I an antisemite? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Mar 18 - 04:36 AM Dave, So, in your own words, how am I an antisemite? Your party is quite clear that the mural is blatantly anti-Semitic. Saying it is not must be an indication of anti-Semitism. None of this is my words. I have been careful not to give my own views. Just those of your party. Jim, You are ignoring every single fact of this issue again Keith You always say that but never identify them. Tell me what I have ignored. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 04:53 AM Please provide a link to where the official stance of the Labour party is "Saying it is not must be an indication of anti-Semitism." I think that may be your own words. Anyhow, it is blatantly obvious that the painting itself is not the issue. It is just another ploy to discredit Corbyn. Do you deny that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Mar 18 - 05:07 AM "You always say that but never identify them. Tell me what I have ignored. And you always say that Respond to the links I put up yesterday for a start You are a pathological hate-merchant Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Mar 18 - 05:21 AM Dave, Corbyn said he was wrong to defend the mural, so it must be wrong for you to defend something that he says was "offensive" and "used anti-Semitic imagery" and "the contents of which are deeply disturbing and anti-Semitic." https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/23/corbyn-criticised-after-backing-artist-behind-antisemitic-mural Why do you? Jim, posting links is not the same as making points. Quote the points you want me to respond to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 05:31 AM Please provide a link to where the official stance of the Labour party is "Saying it is not must be an indication of anti-Semitism." I think that may be your own words. Anyhow, it is blatantly obvious that the painting itself is not the issue. It is just another ploy to discredit Corbyn. Do you deny that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Mar 18 - 05:35 AM "I doubt that people were influenced in their voting by those quotes." I don't want you to respond to anything - I'm happy you don't because it shows you up for the bigot you are Your behavior is appalling on this thread You use raped children to express your hatred of Muslims You use the action of a few criminals to show Travellers are a community of slave owners Yoyr hatred of the Irish is vented on "brainwashed children" You make the sexual harassment and rape of women a party political issue and defend the worst serial offenders Now you make the oldest form of bigotry another party political issue You have no interest in anny of these victims - they are just sticks to beat a party you don't like You are a right wing extremist hate-merchant who uses this forum for a megaphone for your hatred Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Mar 18 - 05:58 AM Dave, Corbyn said it was wrong for himself or anyone in the party to defend the "deeply disturbing" anti-Semitism, so that means you. Jim, everything you just said about me is a filthy lie. Everytime you lose an argument you drop the subject and switch to a lying attack on me personally. This is not about me Jim. Stick to the issue. PFR, do you have an opinion on what Jim has just posted? He might listen to you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: David Carter (UK) Date: 29 Mar 18 - 06:03 AM Bobad, have you any comment to make on the link posted by DtG on 28 Mar 18 - 01:07 PM? I have no axe to grind either way on this, I am not entirely happy with Jeremy Corbyn at the moment but thats to do with the sacking of Owen Smith. But I read both your link posted a bit earlier, and DtG's, with, I think, an open mind, and I found the latter more evidence based, less emotional, and more convincing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Mar 18 - 06:06 AM Jeremy Corbyn is an extremely skilful politician. Against all the odds he stripped the Tories of their majority and he did it by maintaining his dignity, avoiding dogfights and playing a straight bat. He had all the bullying, misogyny and antisemitism bollix snapping at his ankles before and during the election campaign, not to speak of litanies of personal attacks and ridicule from brainless and clueless Tories, but they all came to naught. He is hated by Bibi-apologists because he supports BDS and has sought accommmodation with the adversaries of the Israeli regime (realising that talking is ten times better then bombing the shite out of innocent civilians). Unfortunately, many of those apologists still reside in the Labour Party, invariably disaffected ex-Blaitrites/Brownites, the likes of the detestable backwoodsman John Mann, the dreadful Louise Ellmann and born-loser Liz Kendall. In days gone by they'd have set up their own SDP-style party (the one that made sure Maggie kept winning, remember?), but even they aren't stupid enough to fail to realise that therein lies the path to oblivion. They think the party belongs to them and they will do almost anything to try to wrest it back, including joining in with the chorus of the vacuous bigots who keep bleating on about antisemitism. They're yesterday's people. The party has changed forever. And they are strengthening Jeremy by the day as he continues to respond with dignity and political nous. They never learn. Yes, vacuous. I've asked and asked and asked what's antisemitic about the mural. The two people here who are the biggest Israel-apologists can't point to a single thing in that mural that appears to be attacking Jews because they are Jews. All they can say is that "other people" have said that it's "blatantly antisemitic." Well there are quite a few rather intelligent people here who are scratching their heads, wondering whether there's actually anything antisemitic in it at all, let alone blatant. But they won't tell us. All they can say is that if we can't see it then we must be antisemitic. Well I'm saying that they've been sussed. The mural is not antisemitic. And I'm not antisemitic for saying that. Come on, Bibi-boys. Prove me wrong. Tell me what's up with it. In your own words now, lads! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Mar 18 - 06:07 AM "Jim, everything you just said about me is a filthy lie." 'Course it was Keith - As somebody said recently, once you make a statement on this forum it stays said Do not attempt to use one member of this against another - you've tried this often If Punky has anything to say- he is quite capable os saying it without your prompting You really are a slime-ball, aren't you? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Mar 18 - 06:19 AM I don't tell lies Keith - you do incessantly Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Mar 18 - 06:20 AM David C, I accidentally missed Dave's link yesterday. Cheers for referring to it. It's absolutely spot-on. One day these saddos who won't drop this over-chewed bone will realise that these negative tactics again Corbyn simply don't work. In fact, they help him to become stronger. The people of this country have little patience with politicians' negativity, as they showed in the last election. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 06:24 AM Please provide a link to where the official stance of the Labour party is "Saying it is not must be an indication of anti-Semitism." I think that may be your own words. Anyhow, it is blatantly obvious that the painting itself is not the issue. It is just another ploy to discredit Corbyn. Do you deny that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 06:32 AM The article I linked is no good, Steve. It isn't by a mainstream living artist with works published on walls in London... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 29 Mar 18 - 07:56 AM Good article in yesterday's Guardian by Michael Segalov. It also contains apt advice to some of the posters to this thread: A small handful of people in Labour’s ranks know only too well the connotations in this mural, yet continue to defend it. There is no space in the Labour party for you. Progressive organisations are better off without you inside. If you can’t see antisemitism, it’s time to open your eyes |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Mar 18 - 07:58 AM Steve, I've asked and asked and asked what's antisemitic about the mural. The two people here who are the biggest Israel-apologists can't point to a single thing I can but choose to put the view extolled by your party instead. No-one else in the party defends the mural. All condemn it as grotesquely anti-Semitic. I suspect that if the party were informed that two members were defending it and denying its anti-Semitism on a public internet forum, they would revoke your membership quite sharply. Do I have your permission to put it to the test? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Mar 18 - 08:02 AM Dave, "Saying it is not must be an indication of anti-Semitism." Corbyn and others in the leadership say it is wrong to deny its "deeply disturbing" anti-Semitism. How is it wrong? It is racist to defend racism, including anti-Semitism. That is what you are both doing. May I pass your details to the party to solicit their opinion on what you are doing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 08:06 AM May I pass your details to the party to solicit their opinion on what you are doing? Of course you may. I take it you will supply details of what was actually said rather than your interpretation? Maybe you will also respond to my previous points. For the third time. Please provide a link to where the official stance of the Labour party is "Saying it is not must be an indication of anti-Semitism." I think that may be your own words. Anyhow, it is blatantly obvious that the painting itself is not the issue. It is just another ploy to discredit Corbyn. Do you deny that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Mar 18 - 08:15 AM Despite the fact that antisemitism (hatred of Jews) is the oldest and most widespread prejudice, it has now become difficult to identify because of its use as a political football - first by Israel, who use it to defend their atrocities and then, politician everywhere who use it as a party political weapon The accusations against the Labour party are basically ones in defence against BDS - the Israelis have actually said that to criticise israel policy is antisemitic (the statement by the Israeli Defence minister put this into precise words) I very much doubt if the rise in "antisemitism" today has anything to do with the Jewish people per se, but it is those Jewish people who have been made the target for Israeli policy - thanks to the Isreali regime Some of the most articulate and experienced opponents of Israeli policy are Jews# This NO IT'S NT ANTISEMITIC by an American/Hungarian Jew, is the best description I've read of modern “antisemitism” today Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 08:17 AM Another good article by Segalov. This one in the independent. Linking to free thinking journalists is a two edged sword, bobad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Mar 18 - 08:24 AM Dave, I would direct them to your post where you say the artist had good reason to deny the anti-Semitism. The rest of the post confirms that you do not find it to be so. I can only link you to Labour's leadership saying it is "wrong" to defend the mural or deny what it is. By wrong I take them to mean it is anti-Semitic to defend anti-Semitism, but that it is easier to just say wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 29 Mar 18 - 08:24 AM Your article has nothing to say about the mural DtG, are you in agreement with him re the anti-Semitic content of that mural and the advice he gives to deniers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Mar 18 - 08:29 AM Meanwhile Jeremy Corbyn ally Christine Shawcroft who is responsible for dealing with anti-Semitism in the party has had to resign because she defended a member's anti-Semitism! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 08:33 AM Your article has nothing to say about the mural DtG This case has nothing to do with a mural that was commented on 6 years ago and has since been removed. It is about trying to discredit Corbyn in the lead up to the local elections. In Segalov's words (That's why) these cries of anti-Semitism make a mockery of a real and present danger. Corbyn’s commitment to fighting discrimination and prejudice has been well documented for decades. His supporters are those who’ve stood alongside him. Accusing these people now of peddling prejudice is nothing but political point-scoring at its worst. It undermines real hatred, and waters down the impact of calling out anti-Semitism when it rears its ugly head. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 29 Mar 18 - 08:41 AM This case has nothing to do with a mural that was commented on 6 years ago and has since been removed. Er, this case has everything to do with a mural.......do pay attention. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 29 Mar 18 - 08:43 AM It undermines real hatred, and waters down the impact of calling out anti-Semitism when it rears its ugly head. Exactly like it has with the case of the mural and those who are trying to defend it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 08:51 AM I repeat. It is about trying to discredit Corbyn in the lead up to the local elections. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 08:54 AM I would direct them to your post where you say the artist had good reason to deny the anti-Semitism. Again, feel free. He did have good reason to do so. Now, how about addressing my points. 4th or 5th repeat. Please provide a link to where the official stance of the Labour party is "Saying it is not must be an indication of anti-Semitism." I think that may be your own words. Anyhow, it is blatantly obvious that the painting itself is not the issue. It is just another ploy to discredit Corbyn. Do you deny that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 08:59 AM Just seen meme that round about sums up my feelings on this. When Tory MP uses the word NIGGER she's welcomed back to the Tories. When Tories called for Nelson Mandela to be hung? Tumbleweed. When Boris calls black children 'piccaninnys' he's promoted. But LIFELONG ANTI-RACISM CAMPAIGNER CORBYN is "racist" It would be laughable if was neither so sad nor so transparent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Mar 18 - 09:23 AM "because she defended a member's anti-Semitism!" Bull has claimed that his tweetes were taken out of context and doctored This is Jewish Labour member, Tony Greenstein's cooment on Bull's expulsion MORE FAKE ANTISEMITISM Alan Bull, Labour candidate in Peterborough suspended as a result of malicious allegations of anti-Semitism It’s time for Jennie Formby to find Witchfinder General Sam Matthews a real job I learnt yesterday that Alan Bull has been suspended by Sam Matthews, Blairite detreitus left after the departure of McNicol, Oldknow, Stolliday and co. Alan has been blocked from standing for Labour in the forthcoming local elections in Peterborough because of the malicious allegations of two far-Right Labour councillors, Richard Ferris & Matthew Mahabadi.. Greenstien also commented As Zionism’s Vultures Circle Lansman and Momentum Fall Silent?—?It’s time to fightback NOT apologise for fake ‘anti-Semitism’ And still you are refusing to respond to everything that has been said and using "antisemitism" to score party political points You are using the Jewish people as a propagana exercise for the extremist right Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Mar 18 - 09:23 AM "because she defended a member's anti-Semitism!" Bull has claimed that his tweetes were taken out of context and doctored This is Jewish Labour member, Tony Greenstein's cooment on Bull's expulsion MORE FAKE ANTISEMITISM Alan Bull, Labour candidate in Peterborough suspended as a result of malicious allegations of anti-Semitism It’s time for Jennie Formby to find Witchfinder General Sam Matthews a real job I learnt yesterday that Alan Bull has been suspended by Sam Matthews, Blairite detreitus left after the departure of McNicol, Oldknow, Stolliday and co. Alan has been blocked from standing for Labour in the forthcoming local elections in Peterborough because of the malicious allegations of two far-Right Labour councillors, Richard Ferris & Matthew Mahabadi.. Greenstien also commented As Zionism’s Vultures Circle Lansman and Momentum Fall Silent?—?It’s time to fightback NOT apologise for fake ‘anti-Semitism’ And still you are refusing to respond to everything that has been said and using "antisemitism" to score party political points You are using the Jewish people as a propagana exercise for the extremist right Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Mar 18 - 10:00 AM Jim, Bull has claimed that his tweetes were taken out of context and doctored That is not what Shawcroft now says about it. She is calling it "abhorrent." Dave, It is just another ploy to discredit Corbyn. Do you deny that? Yes. Please provide a link to where.... I can only link you to Labour's leadership saying it is "wrong" to defend the mural or deny what it is. By wrong I take them to mean it is anti-Semitic to defend anti-Semitism, but easier to just say wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 10:10 AM To sum up then, when you said "Saying it is not must be an indication of anti-Semitism." that was not the words of the Labour party, as you stated, but, as I correctly assumed, your own words. This round about sums up why fewer and fewer people willing to interact with you. Denying that it is a ploy to discredit Corbyn is completely demolished by Michael Segalov. I know who is to be more trusted and stick to my original analysis of the situation thank you. I await the reprimand from the Labour party. Until them we are done. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Mar 18 - 10:18 AM Can someone remind me of the Guardian editorial stance at the moment.. Is it reasonably pro Corbyn, or hostile anti... I've ben reading recent articles on the muralgate offensive against Corbyn written by comfy well off middle class tossser columnists who are decidedly taking the anti labour line... Or are these just an unrepresentative minority of Guardian articles that are being picked up and distributed by presumably biased news feed services...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 10:24 AM The Guardian tend to use writers with a wide range of viewpoints, PFR. It does look a bit anti Jezzer at the mo but there will be some balance. Eventually! I think Steve takes it regularly and may be able to confirm that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 10:40 AM Got my letter from Jeremy, Keith. Thanks for pointing him in my direction David, Our Party was founded on the principles of solidarity and equality. We are proudly anti-racist, and at our best when we work together, uniting people in hope and against fear and division. This week, Jewish leaders wrote to me to express their anger and upset about antisemitism in the Labour Party. I want to assure you that prejudice against, and harassment of, Jewish people have no place whatsoever in our Party. It's important to develop a deeper understanding of what constitutes antisemitism. Often it takes familiar forms, but newer forms of antisemitism have also appeared, sometimes woven into criticisms of the actions of Israeli governments. Criticism of Israel, and support for the rights of the Palestinians, is entirely legitimate. Support for justice for the Palestinian people should provide no one with the excuse to insult, harass or encourage hatred of Jewish people. And abuse and personal attacks of any kind, on social media or in person, are never acceptable. I am committed to ensuring our Party is a welcoming and secure place for everyone. I offer all Jewish members my assurance that this applies equally to them. I want all of us to hear Jewish voices and listen. If you are not Jewish, I want you to better understand the importance of this issue and what we can do together to ensure our Party remains true to our values. Zero tolerance for antisemitism means what it says. We will not accept it. We have to get this right, all of us. Because divided societies cannot achieve justice. As we head into elections in May and look towards the next General Election whenever it might come, let's take the lead in building a society free from prejudice. One that enables everyone to realise their full potential, and cares for all. Thank you for supporting Labour. Jeremy Corbyn Leader of the Labour Party Now, bearing im mind that it was you, not the Labour party, that said "Saying it is not must be an indication of anti-Semitism." I can now confirm that neither I nor anyone on here have gone against the principles of the party. Glad you helped to clear that up for us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 29 Mar 18 - 10:47 AM For someone who is merely the target of a smear campaign Jeremy sure has been making his fair share of apologies lately, lol. Oh and Shaw I would say that The two people here who are the biggest Israel-apologists is rather rich coming from an apologist for anti-Semitism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Mar 18 - 10:59 AM "That is not what Shawcroft now says about it." So !!! WE are now in a position of not knowing what is antisemitism and what is not thanks to Israel's policy of crouching behind the Auschwitz dead Not so long ago you were vigorously defending Green the perv because he said he was not guilty - now it turns out he was You have defended serial perves when oe serial perve managed to 'disappear' a report on a clmate of rape and paedophelia in the Tory Party Now - because it suits your agenda, because somebody has accused a Labour member of being an anti-semite he is automatically guilty, despite the fact that he has claimed innocence Doesn't he get the same right as your Tory Perves? You are very selective in your even-handedness !! You are a fanatican idiot There is no more anti-semitism in the Labour Party than there is in the Tory Party - a fact that you have yet to acknowledge - and you won't!! Stop victimising the Jewish people as you have already victimised raped women and children in your right wing crusade Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Mar 18 - 11:34 AM ... and now back for a few more moments of peculiar amusements in the alternative reality know as 'Keith & bob world'... What goes on in the minds of wicked folks who unjustly pressurise good folks with false accusations...????? ..and when those good folks are obliged by political and diplomatic demands of traditional gentlemanly protcol and conduct to issue public 'apologies' in order to demonstrate that they truly are decent folks at heart; Why, then the wicked folks hold those coerced apologies up as proof of 'guilt'...!!!??? What a bizarre and insane place is Keith & Bob world...!!!!! A dark malevolent teletubby land for bitter old men... Personally I'd be tempted to tell the false accusers to f@ck right off.. but then I'm not a politician under unforgiving public scrutiny... .. and jezzers associates do wish he'd be less generous with apologies, and stand up more defiantly to his false accusers.. But that's jezzer.. what a nice man...!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Mar 18 - 11:39 AM oops again.. clumsier paragraph from rough draft crept in.. should be "..and when those good folks are obliged by demands of traditional gentlemanly political and diplomatic protcol and conduct to issue public 'apologies' in order to demonstrate that they truly are decent folks at heart;" same meaning, just flows and reads better.. we've got to have standards, can't let civilization just fall apart around our ankles... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Mar 18 - 12:35 PM Gosh, hasn't it been fun here today! Been a tad busy so I'm having to hark back a few hours. "I suspect that if the party were informed that two members were defending it and denying its anti-Semitism on a public internet forum, they would revoke your membership quite sharply." Inform away. The thing about the bloody mural, Keith, is that I don't care about it much, to be honest. Apart from the fact that it was erased six years ago (and you're only prattling on about it now for reasons best known to yourself), I don't like it much. It's ugly. I wouldn't want a print of it on me living room wall. And I'm not defending it. I'm telling you off for attacking it and for not being able, despite umpteen polite requests, to tell me precisely what YOU see as antisemitic about it. I simply can't see it. And, quite clearly neither can you nor bobad. You're both sussed. You've swallowed a load of pro-Israel regime anti-Jezza propaganda. You can't think for yourselves. All you can do is dredge up selective stuff from sources that suit your delusion. It's pathetic, actually, Keith. Tell you what. I'll give you another chance. Have a close look at the pic again (I say "again" even though it looks to me like you haven't even seen it at all). Tell me what aspects of antisemitism are depicted. In your own words. Never mind what anyone else has said. You're on a debating forum and you're supposed to think for yourself and tell us what YOU think. Go on, give it a whirl! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Mar 18 - 01:02 PM Dave, you should have told Jeremy that you and another member were defending the mural on an internet forum. Do you really not understand that what is wrong with defending racism is that it makes you racist? PFR, I quoted a guardian editorial. " The mural in east London featuring anti-Semitic tropes that sparked the protests should, at any time, have been met with unqualified repudiation." "That two Jewish community organisations – the Board of Deputies and the Jewish Leadership Council – have written in the strongest terms and taken to the streets is a sign not of obsession or partisanship but of fear and desperation." " It does not make the issue minor. Under Mr Corbyn, Labour has not been quick, clear or uncompromising enough to deal with those shameful remaining pockets." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/26/the-guardian-view-on-labour-and-antisemitism-a-leader-must-lead |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 01:09 PM Do you really not understand that what is wrong with defending racism is that it makes you racist? I fully understand that, which is why I have not defended any racism. Go ahead, report away to to Labour party. See if they can find any racism in any of my posts. What I do not understand is why you persist in denying that this is a blatant attack on Corbyn. Or why you cannot tell us what you find antisemitic about the mural. Or why you think it still matters 6 years after the event. Well, to be honest, I do do have a theory that answers all these questions but you will not like it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Mar 18 - 01:12 PM ..meanwhile back in Keith and bob world... If wicked folks get caught red handed doing something obviously sneaky and very naughty whilst making false accusations to ruin their victim's public reputation; all they have to do is whine "how dare you say we are doing something obviously sneaky and very naughty - don't you know it's a bad crime to point out we are doing what we are doing...!!!? We'll get you, now we'll tell the whole world very loudly that you are an even more badder person - so bad we have a special name for it - a name we can use as a word weapon to destroy you - and you are one of them...!!!!"... effin mental in Keith and bob world... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Mar 18 - 01:19 PM Keith - btw.. if you are strategicaly cherry picking Guardian quotes to defend your opinions, then what that tells me is either the Guardian has shifted further along the anti Corbyn trajectory, or you are indeed very selective in your desperate search for biased quotations...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Mar 18 - 12:27 PM You are still not responding to anything Keith - the mural is a small part of a much larger and serious picture - that os a foreign power interfering in British politics by trying to undermine a major party The same type of thing gave us Donald Trump as a world leader - who will we get Nigel the Goose-stepper (who you have also defended by claiming he isn't a racist) YOu have quite a recoird for defending extremists, perverts and mass murderers ! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Mar 18 - 12:56 PM PFR, Keith - btw.. if you are strategicaly cherry picking Guardian quotes to defend your opinions, I have not. The Guardian has never denied the anti-Semitism in the mural, and has written nothing to contradict anything I have posted. Will any of you quote them as I have done? I have made no "false accusations." Please quote whatever you have mistaken for one. All I have done is to repeat what senior Labour officials have said. What is your objection to that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Mar 18 - 01:19 PM All I have done is to repeat what senior Labour officials have said." Keith so that'll be the statements and apologies Labour have been forced under immense hostile coercive pressure to reluctantly issue against their will; simply as damage limitation in order to defend their collective reputation against strategically timed malicious accusations...??? ..but you already know that, don't you...??? Is there a word for firing shit from a scatter gun with the hope that as much as possible sticks...????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 02:02 PM s there a word for firing shit from a scatter gun with the hope that as much as possible sticks I know you have the skills to invent a better one than I can but may I suggest you try for a variation on skeet shooting? Skeithing perhaps? :D tG |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Mar 18 - 02:03 PM "I have made no "false accusations." Please quote whatever you have mistaken for one." You accused the mural of being antisemitic. When we ask you why you accuse it thusly, you can't tell us. The only possible conclusion is that you've made a false accusation. Admit it, Keith. It's the hooked noses, isn't it... It must be. There's nowt else! Go on, admit that it's the hooked noses. Give us a good laugh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Mar 18 - 02:06 PM It's not damage limitation, pfr. It's bloody clever politicking. Trouble is, these Tories and pro-Bibi types don't recognise it when they see it. It cost them the majority last time. Next time, it'll cost them power. Let 'em continue along this brainless path, say I. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: robomatic Date: 29 Mar 18 - 02:16 PM First off I'm not up to the UK politics anywhere the level of you who are locals. FWIW here's a link to a New York Times opinionist who feels he's up to the mark: a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/29/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semite.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading">Jeremy Corbyn Accidental Anti-Semite THE MURAL: A creditable piece of what used to be called "Agit-Prop", well done and colorful and it is clever in that the painter can name the 'bad capitalists' and only a few are so-called Jews. If you want to picture it as a bunch of nameless fat-cats you can do that, and if you want to think of 'em as classic badJews of the Nazi poster 30s you can do that. It is not really original, it is a modern re-hash of Communist propaganda crap. It is only 'new' to new eyes. Sort of like re-making "The Italian Job" with Cherize Theron instead of Michael Caine. What is missing is a big ol' mural of Josef Stalin and Adolf Hitler signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact that kicked off WWII and put a lot of bent-over people not under a Monopoly Board, but right into the ground or the oven, as the case may be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Mar 18 - 02:21 PM An interesting thing about hooked noses is you don't necessarily need to be jewish to have been born with one... I look at photos of my Jewish line of ancestry, and see quite a mixed variety of hooters. Whereas my great grandad on the 'English' side of the family had a massive Jewish stereotype conk...??? Or maybe.. I'm even more Jewish than I ever knew...!!!??? Point is even though racist art has a history of depicting caricature Jewish noses, tenuous links to a couple of cartoonish snotters on a long gone crappy mural are hardly sufficient evidence to justify an outrageous malicious attack on a opposition political party...?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Mar 18 - 02:22 PM "Please quote whatever you have mistaken for one." Will you stop this time-wasting tactic on things you have said which we've all read Keith You'll be telling us you haven'tt called us all liars or have never claimed to have "won" anything next We may be the thickos you appear to take us for, but we can read As for repeating what senior labour officials have said - how about the ones who have denied all your shit - or for that matter, how about the Jewish members who have laid on the lne what all this is about - why do they not count - because they are not officials - because they are "unusable to your cause Jews" - or maybe because they hols no position and are just members Since all this started, the Labour party has continued to grow - not with anti-semites - tey're all hobnobbing with the extreme right, and the Israeli regime Why not go and find a Muslim to persecute, or an Irish child, or a Traveller - you seen to enjoy that Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Mar 18 - 02:26 PM Ps..It's interesting that those right wingers whipping up a frenzy of anti Russian venom based on Putin's 'anti democratic' attacks on his opposition leaders, are just as guilty of utilizing near enough the same malevolent tactics here in the UK...????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Mar 18 - 02:39 PM Thanks, robomatic. A good summary of the mural. I do not agree with a lot of what the columnist says but there is one phrase he used that I think is great You can never know with certainty what’s in a person’s mind or heart unless he tells it to you straight. Motives can be complex. Self-delusion plays its role The other thing that he does make clear though is that all the mentioned visits to the 'house of I'll repute' are well in the past. Not that, if he is guilty of antisemitism, this makes it any better. But many Jews do not believe he is antisemitic and the fact that people are scouring the past to anything to use against him shows what the motives are probably are in this case. And that some are running scared. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Mar 18 - 03:12 PM ..meanwhile out in the reality beyond Keith and Bob world... Jewish pupil at Bristol's Clifton College force-fed ham pizza by fellow student Jolly japes amongst the upper crust of tory British society... Hark... where's the public outcry from the popular media................????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: robomatic Date: 29 Mar 18 - 07:11 PM DTG I agree with you; noticed the same exact line you quoted. It is all too easy these days to brand someone based on what you think is in his or her mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Mar 18 - 07:18 PM I do wish people would realise that responding to personal insults by personal insults is a serious mistake. It would be good if more people would use Jeremy Corbyn and Tony Benn as role models in that respect. ..................... As for the mural, gone long ago but brought back from the grave to be weaponised, people need to make of it what they make of it, and not rely on anybody else’s view as if that decided anything. From the rubbishy reproductions of it which I've seen, and which I assume most people have seen, it's hard to make out too much, apart from the fact that it doesn't look like a very good mural. It wouldn't stand up too well up on quality against the better ones in Belfast or Derry, leaving aside the content. Clearly it genuinely looks anti-Semitic to many people. The creator denies any such intention, and I can see no valid reason to doubt that. Of course that's not the end of the matter. The iconography is about plutocracy, predatory capitalism - rich financiers playing games while poor people are exploited. Nothing to jib at to in that, it is how many of us continue to see how the world we live in works, notably in the context of 2008. The ground for calling it anti-Semitic is that some of the game-players are seen as looking like caricatures of Jews. In our historical context that does carry an implication that Jews as Jews should be seen as having a particular responsibility for predatory capitalism, rather than merely that predatory capitalists are in some cases Jewish, in the same way that some doctors or taxi-drivers are Jewish. This perceived implication, even if unintended, did in itself reasonably mean that the mural was unacceptable. That is why Jeremy Corbyn, on seeing a better representation of the mural than he had seen at first, reversed his initiation assumption that it had not deserved to be destroyed. Politically motivated destruction of works of art, including those we disagree with, is generally something that should be opposed, and it was perfectly reasonable for Corbyn to do so on first hearing about it, before it emerged that this was a rare exception where destruction was more justifiable. The intention of the creator is not actually relevant in determining whether the image comes across as anti Semitic. It would only be relevant in the context of a discussion about the person themself. I have seemingly no evidence that the creator of the mural was insincere in his denial of any anti Semitic intention. But what does seem eminently reasonable is to recognise that the attempt to use this as some kind of evidence of Jeremy Corbyn being sympathetic to antisemitism is a grotesque libel. No doubt at least some of those promoting and echoing it do actually fail to recognise that, and believe to be true, in the same way that no doubt there are those with antisemitic and racist views who hold them to be true. But we should never accuse people of being liars if they actually believe their lies to be true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: robomatic Date: 30 Mar 18 - 12:18 AM McGrath, I don't agree with every single word of your last contribution (I would say that the mural is closer to 1938 than 2008 in context, for example). I agree with the sense of it and it is clear that considerable thought went into it and I think it is very well written. The mural is to my mind dreadfully dated and simplistic in addressing the problems we have in this era, and ignores the inevitability of 'globalism' as does the current inhabitant of the White House. The anti-semitic question is to my mind more diversionary than topical. This will probably be irrelevant to everyone but me, nevertheless its musical so I'm gonna go ahead: Peter Gabriel and Genesis came out with a song "Land of Confusion" and it was used in a video back in 1986. It's one of my favorites. They used materials from a great satiric television revue of the time: "Spitting Image". The same song was covered with a more musically 'metal' edge by Disturbed in 2005. It was a creditable piece of work but I think it mostly lost the message. It took a frank view of an intractable problem based on human nature and simplified it to evil fat bankerdom. It also lacked the imagination and great humor of the original. That is making the intractable problems damn near impossible to even address. I think that vid |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Mar 18 - 02:53 AM PFR, the school kids are not political leaders and are not just an election away from government. I am astonished that you compared the Labour leadership to some naughty children. BBC "A group of 39 Labour politicians have called on Jeremy Corbyn to suspend the party's former disputes chief amid the ongoing row over anti-Semitism. In an open letter, MPs and peers (and shadow ministers) called for Christine Shawcroft to be suspended from the National Executive Committee. Ms Shawcroft had quit as head of Labour's disputes panel after she sent an email showing support for a council candidate accused of Holocaust denial. It comes as Mr Corbyn faces continued pressure to tackle anti-Semitism. The letter, which is signed by 39 Labour politicians, said it was "utterly wrong" and "highly offensive to the Jewish community" that Ms Shawcroft remained a member of the NEC, which is Labour's governing body." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43592838 Perhaps they are all bitter old people too, except I have not an ounce of bitterness in me. My views are clearly widely held within your party, including by the leadership. The leadership is further Left than it has been for a generation, but you people are extremists way beyond that. You dominate political threads as if your views were normal, while driving away moderate middle of the road people with abuse and smears. When I am gone ther will be no Mudcatters from Britain prepared to challenge your belligerent extremism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Mar 18 - 02:59 AM Steve, You accused the mural of being antisemitic. When we ask you why you accuse it thusly, you can't tell us. The only possible conclusion is that you've made a false accusation. Admit it, Keith. It's the hooked noses, isn't it It is your party that says the mural is anti-Semitic. I can quote a large number, but I have found none except you two who deny it. Can you find any? No. Your leaders say it is wrong to defend it as you do. How is it wrong? Because it is racist to defend racism. I express their views. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 30 Mar 18 - 03:12 AM But what do YOU find antisemitic about it, Keith? You have made it quite clear that you do not like the current Labour leadership so why rely on them for your opinion? Tell us What YOU think for a change. What I find very antisemitic is a popular story that it was the Jews, full of hate and screaming for blood, that brought about the torture and death of a peace loving hippy. But today millions of people will celebrate that story. I don't think Jeremy Corbyn will be one of them. Good posts robomatic and McGrath btw. Good reasoning. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 18 - 05:21 AM The Shawcross issue is all about a Labour candidate for the council in Peterborough. Alan Bull, who is accused of being a Holocaust denier. Not only he no such thing, he has been an opponent of racism in all its forms for the whole of his life. He posted an item about Holocaust denial privately to his friends FOR DISCUSSION. The private Facebook entry was not only hacked but was also doctored to remove the comments under the post in which Bull made it abundantly and perfectly clear that he is not a Holocaust denier. He is being hounded by the same anti-Palestinian forces in the party that are are doing their damnedest to undermine Corbyn via the issue of antisemitism. If you wish to comment on this case I suggest you do as I've just done and acquaint yourself with the facts first. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Mar 18 - 06:16 AM The mural is a smokescreen I don't believe it to have been anti-semitic in intention and it was put up before teh anti-BDS crowd decided to make the British Labour Party a target Corbyn has withdrawn his support for it and apologised - Keith and the anti-BDS mob make an issue of it and hide behind "antisemitism" to defend the Israeli regime's atrocities. I have yet to see the Israeli regime or supporters like Keith apologising for or even acknowledging the fact that the Israeli Government is now openly co-operating with the same brand of fascists who sent six million Jews to their deaths (alongside socialists, Gypsies and those considered mentally unfit to live) Israel is no longer about the Jewish People; it is now about extreme right-wing extremism and ethnic cleansing - the two things that led to the rise of power of the Nazi Party and World War 2 Let's see if Keith wants to talk about that one! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 18 - 06:31 AM In the meantime: One of Israel’s chief rabbis called black people “monkeys” during his weekly sermon. Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef’s comments were denounced as ”racially charged” and “utterly unacceptable” by the Anti-Defamation League, a New York City-based organisation devoted to battling anti-Semitism and racism. During his weekly sermon, the rabbi used a derogatory Hebrew term for a black person, before going on to call a black person a “monkey,” according to footage published by the Ynet news site... ...He has previously courted controversy for suggesting secular women behave like animals because they dress immodestly. [Times Of Israel, would you believe] Wonder whether he'll be suspended... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 30 Mar 18 - 07:01 AM There are nutters and extremists everywhere, Steve. You only have to look at Mudcat ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Mar 18 - 07:13 AM While this argument chunters on news has just come in that the Israeli regime has let loose 100 sharpshooters on peaceful protesters protesting over land-seizures - some deaths have been reported, including that of a local farmer killed by tank-fire - he was not connected with the demonstration Wrong place - wrong time, but that's modern Israel for you! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Mar 18 - 07:24 AM The moral of the Alan Bull affair appears to be that, if we ever copy and post, or link to, any quote or article with which we do not wholly agree, on any sensitive subject, we had best make sure that the post includes a clear indication of our actual view. Even if the context of other posts would mean that the intended readers would be aware of that. All sounds a bit paranoid. There is definitely a whiff of McCarthyism about. Guilt by association. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 18 - 08:31 AM I meant Shawcroft, not Shawcross - sorry about that. You're right, Kevin, but let's not forget that the post was part of a PRIVATE conversation. Even today's Guardian report refers to him as a Holocaust denier. The whole story is a complete outrage but it's being fuelled mercilessly by Corbyn's opponents in the party who will stop at nothing to attack him, including telling bare-faced slanderous lies. They are the problem in the Labour Party, not antisemitism, bullying or misogyny. He is finding it hard to handle but he has no alternative but to follow the non-confrontational line he's taking, in spite of the fact that he's clearly having to admit to things he doesn't believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Mar 18 - 09:07 AM Steve, what is the relevance of events in Israel to this discussion? Dave, But what do YOU find antisemitic about it, Keith? You have made it quite clear that you do not like the current Labour leadership so why rely on them for your opinion? I am weary of having my moderate, mainstream views vilified and ridiculed by you Far Left extremists, so I quote people with the same views as me who you can not dismiss. In this case the Labour leadership and apparently the whole party except you two extreme extremists. Can you quote anyone from Labour who agrees with you that it is not anti-Semitic? No. Can you quote the Guardian? No. I can. I am much closer to real Labour values than you are, but I am the only moderate still posting from here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Mar 18 - 09:20 AM Who first broke the mural story, and who researched it for them, and so dredged up Corbyn's ancient comments regarding that long ago eradicated mural...??? Who tipped off the Rabbis...????? The culprits at the bottom of this, need to be exposed...!!! just my gut feeling - was it Guido yet again...????????? I'd say the mob baying for jezza's crucifixion are a mix of outright nasty extremist bastards and an increasing number of decent folks being exploited as useful idiots... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Mar 18 - 09:26 AM I disagree PFR. Every senior politician has to contend with teams of his political enemies searching for mistakes they may have made however long ago. Now they can trawl social media too. It is not just a problem for Labour, but Corbyn seems to have more skeletons than most. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Mar 18 - 09:30 AM Remember, most of the denouncements of anti-Semitism, misogyny and sexual harassment have come from within the party. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Mar 18 - 09:53 AM "I am weary of having my moderate, mainstream views vilified and in any threadridiculed by you Far Left extremists, Keith - It's my thread, so if it confers any modding authority on me - please stop repeating that nonsense. When you say it the first time, that is more than enough. Any reasonable moderate person should easily see straight through you and the tactics you so clumsily deploy. Who do you actually think reads and agrees with your silly pretence. Regulars in these threads recognise immediately what you are attempting to do. You fool no one.... It's boring having to read the same thing over and over again in the same thread. I'd prefer it if you utilized your obvious intelligence and try to debate at the same rational adult level as the rest of us. ..and I'd count my occasional 'childlike' flights of sardonic whimsy as more adult than your masquerade as the voice of moderate normality...!!! PFR, the school kids are not political leaders and are not just an election away from government. I am astonished that you compared the Labour leadership to some naughty children. Why would anyone apart from you strive to contrive such a silly comparison...??? You know the point is that this is a more recent act of genuine anti semitism committed by the youth of our nation's wealthy elite. Those with most to gain by hypocritically trying to destroy labour with accusations of anti semitism. "Steve, what is the relevance of events in Israel to this discussion?" Probably more relevant than most of your posts. I can not be bothered reading back to your first entry in this thread, but I do not recall you making much if any effort to respond to the TV news interview in my opening post...??? The news item why this thread exists in the first place... What is your response to the strong contingent of steadfast Labour jews who remain loyally pro Corbyn and stand up against the malevolent attacks from hostile forces within their own religion and culture...??? Let's hear you say something relevant on the actual topic of this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Mar 18 - 09:58 AM Keith I didn't read the 2 posts of yours while I was writing my last one. Yes - even if we will continue to disagree, those are two short sharp concise to the point posts. No excess flab and repetitive waffle. Much better, please continue to debate in that positive style of writing. thanks Pfr |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 18 - 10:04 AM Yes Keith. From Corbyn's enemies in the party, mostly disaffected ex-Blairite/Brownites who can't believe that a real socialist has nicked what they mistakenly see as "their" party. And what have events in Israel got to do with it? Well it's events in Israel, no matter how awful, that you won't let us talk about without your calling us antisemitic. The whole point of "New Antisemitism" is to immunise bad behaviour in Israel from being criticised. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you and bobad weren't plotting to find a way of calling me antisemitic just for mentioning that rotten chief rabbi. You've taken it all a step further now by claiming that we're antisemitic because we can't see any antisemitism in a mural, yet you can't actually tell us what is supposed to be antisemitic about it. Well, And if you're a moderate I'm the Queen of Sheba, by the way. You certainly appear to be possessed of an extremely moderate intellect, that's for sure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 18 - 10:08 AM That "Well" got accidentally and mysteriously separated from "you certainly appear..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Mar 18 - 10:18 AM "Steve, what is the relevance of events in Israel to this discussion?" You've already been told that - keep up The slaughter that is goiung on at present is exactly what this is all about "I moderate, mainstream " You are a araving racist - Muslims, Irish, Travellers and now Jews "the whole party " Except the thousand who support BDS and the Jews who have openly spoken out about it- (its a sign of your antisemitism that you include them in your "whole party" - is it because they are "self hating Jews" that they don't count?) This is the action of a small group of people - the "party" have never been consulted Since all this started, the membership of the party has grown Is it any wonder you are being ridiculed when you make statements as dishonest as that Goebells made a better job of propaganda than you are Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Mar 18 - 10:36 AM "Every senior politician has to contend with teams of his political enemies searching for mistakes they may have made however long ago. Now they can trawl social media too. It is not just a problem for Labour, but Corbyn seems to have more skeletons than most." Corbyn is knocking on 70, few blokes his age who were active in the 1960s to 1980s won't have skeletons they'd rather keep private... As for jezza, who'd have thought he'd ever end up leader, most probably not him... And all this shit being dredged up is from long before he ever so surprisingly rose to leader of the opposition... Or even before professional right wing shit stirrers latched on to the rich potential of scouring/hacking internet social networks |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Mar 18 - 10:55 AM The subject is anti-Semitism not Israel. I always enjoy discussing Israel and would welcome a thread, but not on this one. PFR The children may have wealthy parents but they are children and that is why their antics do not make the news like those of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition. Who first broke the mural story, and who researched it for them, "Sam Shemtob, a music publicist and Labour supporter who voted for Corbyn as leader, repeatedly raised concerns about Corbyn’s 2012 Facebook post backing the Los Angeles-based street artist Mear One, over a painting featuring numerous antisemitic tropes. After the party ignored Shemtob’s social media comments about Corbyn’s post he lodged a formal complaint in February 2017. In an email to the party, under the subject line “antisemitism complaint”, Shemtob accused Corbyn of endorsing Nazi-style propaganda. He told the Guardian that if the party had acted to address his concerns it could have avoided the current row. Shemtob’s complaint in 2017 came after a Labour councillor, John Clarke, shared a tweet by a neo-Nazi containing slurs against Israel and the Rothschild family. Jeremy Corbyn has since conceded there is a problem with antisemitism in the Labour party." https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/27/labour-ignored-formal-complaint-over-antisemitic-mural-emails-suggest Steve, yet you can't actually tell us what is supposed to be antisemitic about it. I do not need to. Your leader, deputy leader, Shadow Chancellor, the Guardian and most of your members already have. Have you found any single member who defends it as not anti-Semitic as you two do? he's clearly having to admit to things he doesn't believe. You mean he lies about what he really believes to make himself acceptable to people! If you are right that is deeply shocking. Jim, teh anti-BDS crowd decided to make the British Labour Party a target Corbyn is part of the anti-BDS crowd! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Mar 18 - 11:49 AM "Corbyn is part of the anti-BDS crowd!" Stop repeating yourself when you've been answered adequately Keith How about responding to all the responses instead of ploughing your hate-filled bulldozer past all the awkward bits Corbyn is a critic of Israeli ethnic cleansing - whether he is in favour of BDS or no, the Israelis want him out of the way I have little doubt that, after today's brutality, BDS will feature strongly again You are supporting a foreign power's intervention in British politics - this is no different than Russia's intervention in the American election and Brexit Friggin' "patriots who'd have 'em. Every single accusation of anti semitism has been traced directly back to anti-BDS - every single one and you have to ask what Israel has to do with this!!! How dare you describe people here as "extremists" - you are the only extremist her If you have any example of our extremism - put them up I'm happy to put yours up - as often as you like I'll probably start with your hate-filled "implant obscenity again" "Sam Shetob" raised her concerns in 2012 - until now, it seems what he had replied to he was satisfactory enough for it not to me an issue. After sx years it is raised again If this is not proof that this is now a concentrated campaign to get rid of Corbyn y dredging up past shit - nothing is Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Mar 18 - 11:52 AM Keith - While those Clifton college pupils - teenagers actually, not children - are not quite yet adults; they are significantly highly educated and should be well aware of their actions.. But that is a lesser point. The main point is an alleged attempt made to cover up... A high profile member of Bristol's Jewish community, who wished to remain anonymous, said: "I would like to express disappointment felt by the local Jewish community at the school’s lack of response. “It isn’t the first case of anti-semitism at Clifton College. The fact it happened in the first place is awful but the way in which Clifton College has brushed it under the carpet is much worse." ..and when it did reach the attention of the press this week, while all are embroiled in hyping up the Corbyn furore.. the story barely made headlines... wonder why...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Mar 18 - 11:54 AM Seven protesters shot dead by Israeli troops so far - more seriously wounded - I think Isreal is trying to topple the Sharpville record (am I being antisemitic by reporting that) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 18 - 12:02 PM "You mean he lies about what he really believes to make himself acceptable to people! If you are right that is deeply shocking" You don't really understand this politics malarkey, do you? The fact that he seems to be caving in on this completely destroys his enemies' firing pins. His alternative would be to be confrontational. That would cause the row to last forever as the gutter press had a field-day, would lead to multiple plots against him - and would be completely out of character. He's playing politics, Keith, just like May is playing politics when she tries to look enthusiastic about brexit, which she opposed and which she must now see as an impending disaster. As for making himself acceptable to people, not only did he surprise everybody at the last election, he's also presided over a spectacular and unprecedented explosion of party membership. The trouble with you and your sorry ilk is that you constantly seek only the information that confirms your rotten prejudices. Me: "...yet you can't actually tell us what is supposed to be antisemitic about it." Keith: "I do not need to." Oh yes you do. You're a laughing stock. I know exactly why you can't respond. You're scared that we'll laugh at you at loud when you say it's because some of those old men have hooked noses. Well you're right about that. Thing is, though, Keith, we're already laughing at you for bottling this. "Have you found any single member who defends it as not anti-Semitic as you two do?" Who's defending it? Not me. It's ugly. I don't like it. I'm not defending the picture. It's a third-rate piece that doesn't need defending. When I say it's not antisemitic I'm stating a fact, not defending it. I'm simply not interested in defending something I don't like. If we see a pile of horse shit and you say to me look at that horrid dog-turd and I say no, Keith, it's horse shit, I'm not defending the horse shit, am I. I'm attacking you for opportunistically and dishonestly weaponising that mural in order to join the brain-dead anti-Corbyn chorus. And I've already said that once. Try listening why don't you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 30 Mar 18 - 12:03 PM So you do not have your own views on this then, Keith? That poses the question as to why you are getting so gobby about it. I have no idea why you think asking for your own opinion is vilifying or ridiculing you. Could it be another instance of... Different morality Different language Different planet? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Mar 18 - 12:06 PM Twelve dead - hundreds wounded Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: robomatic Date: 30 Mar 18 - 12:37 PM Jim: You're clearly being a Jew-baiter. Do you stop between posts to wipe the spittle off your lips?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Mar 18 - 12:59 PM "You're clearly being a Jew-baiter. Do you stop between posts to wipe the spittle off your lips??" Did=n't you know it is anti=semitic to associate the actions of the Israeli regime with the Jewish People MY offer to others is extended to you - if you can find on single statement of mine denegrating the Jewish People I will make a large donation to your named charity. How dare you defend a state that is openly associating with antisemitic parties and is, at present shooting down unarmed protesters by equating them with the Jewish people Who is the anti-semite - you ar me? Did you show the same warmth towrds the South African regime - wouldn't surprise me What is happening right this minute is exactly what all these accusations are about - These protests have spread right along the Israeli border - the protester are unarmed - the Israelis have turned out 100 marksmen - one non-protestor has been killed by tank fire The protests are planned to go on till next month - hope tey have plenty of body-bags to hand Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Mar 18 - 01:09 PM PFR, and when it did reach the attention of the press this week, while all are embroiled in hyping up the Corbyn furore.. the story barely made headlines... wonder why...??? Because it was just about school discipline and kids, not elected politicians. Steve, And if you're a moderate I'm the Queen of Sheba, Never the less, I am. Try to think of a non-moderate view I have ever espoused. Before you say the issue of culture on grooming gangs, 1. That was not my view. I admitted having no knowledge. 2.The 5 I quoted whose view it was were ALL LEFT WING. 3.Three of the 5 were senior Labour people. Moderates all. Who's defending it? Not me. It's ugly. This is not about its appearance. It is said to be anti-Semitic, but you defend it from that accusation by denying it. Unlike your leader, deputy leader, Shadow Chancellor, the Guardian and most of your members. Have you found any single member who defends it as not anti-Semitic as you two do? Dave, So you do not have your own views on this then, Keith? Yes I have, but I am weary of having my moderate, mainstream views vilified and ridiculed by you Far Left extremists, so I quote people with the same views as me who you can not dismiss. Jim, If you have any example of our extremism - put them up BDS is an extreme view. Too extreme even for Corbyn Your views are all Far Left. Extreme. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Mar 18 - 01:25 PM "...I am weary of having my moderate, mainstream views vilified and ridiculed by you Far Left extremists, so I quote people with the same views as me who you can not dismiss." Keith - I've already asked you politely to please refrain from over repeating this boring drivel... you are not convincing anyone.. We are not taken in by such silly claims that are so contrary to reality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 30 Mar 18 - 01:28 PM Yes I have Well, give us your view then. I promise not to vilify or ridicule it. Even if others did, surely you are not frightened of that are you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Mar 18 - 01:30 PM Someone mentioned 'jew-baiters'... I'd humbly suggest the only folks being baited here are malicious spreaders of divisive anti Labour disinformation... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Mar 18 - 01:38 PM "Because it was just about school discipline and kids, not elected politicians." Keith you are still completely missing a fairly obvious point. It's more about an inconveniently timed news story of traditional UK tory elite antisemitism that does not fit the prevailing hostile anti Labour narrative of Corbyn and the long gone inconsequential amateurish mural... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: robomatic Date: 30 Mar 18 - 01:52 PM Jim Carroll: I brought up the "Jew-Baiter" tag just for you- you have gone as crazy as Wayne LaPierre on a BB Gun all at once about Israel, which is OFF TOPIC. You have accomplished two things: You yourself have brought the anti-Semitism relationship to Israel by yourself leaping on it and sticking to it. You are an example of the very tactic you so often so repetitively and so consistently try to cleanse yourself of. You are like a sewer rat trying to get into the three-star kitchen of Ratatouille yet dragging used TP clinging to yourself. You have also endangered this thread. If it is shut-down you will be the prime cause. There is a magic solution so obvious that you Jim Carroll have let it go right past you, because YOU CANNOT HELP YOURSELF: Start a thread for your topic. Then you can bleat to your heart's content and get all your fellow bleaters and counter-bleaters to vent your various obnoxicities out of your systems- tho I suspect you are a carrier and will go typhoid Annie as usual. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Mar 18 - 02:39 PM Thebn you ar an antisemite forr associating the Jewish people with what is happening in Israel with the Jewish Peole - I certainly haven't My family were ivolved witrh theanti fascist fights with Mosley - my father fought in Spain because of what was happening to teh Jews and members of my family were arrested for opposing the Blackshirts By father received an MI5 record as "premature anti-fascit" and was blacklisted from work How dare an extremist right-wing appeaser like you accuse me of hating the Jews and how dare you hide behind the dead of Auschwitz in order yto defend actions not unsimilar to those who sent six million Jews to their deaths? As for what is happening in Israel being "off topic" many people, may Jews included, believe the accusations against the Labour Party have been instigated by the highly fainanced Anti-BDS campaign It sinds suspiciously like something that ne nazis would have done to attampt to exclude it from a discussion such as this Well done for scoring so many bullseyes with one shot Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 18 - 03:31 PM "It is said to be anti-Semitic, but you defend it from that accusation by denying it." Denying it is not defending anything. Denying that a lump of horse shit is a dog turd is not defending the horse shit. It's simply putting you straight. And Keith, "It is said to be..." is absolute classic weasel words. And if it's an accusation, I need to see the grounds for that accusation. You are incapable of providing those grounds, almost certainly because you can't bring yourself to say that it's all about hooked noses. Robomatic, you've settled down recently but you don't get this. Jim is exceptionally consistent, and has been for years, in correctly excoriating people who support the Israeli regime and simultaneously attack its critics by calling them antisemitic. Those people are simply putting Jewish people the world over in harm's way and they are the true antisemites. Takes a bit of thinking through. But it's worth the effort. And you really don't need to threaten us with thread closure unless you're a mod, right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Mar 18 - 05:10 PM If the thread does get shut down soon, as I expect it will, the cause would be that the level of name calling and worse has exceeded the level seen as tolerable, so it gets shut as toxic, and a health hazard. I suspect that with some posters this can be what they try to achieve. ....... As with a lot of controversies, this involves words at issue being used in significantly different senses. In this case "antisemitic". A mural used to exist, and was destroyed as antisemitic. Clearly it was seen as looking antisemitic. That seems a reasonable opinion. On the other hand the person who created it said that they had no antisemitic intention. That also seems plausible enough. So if "antisemitic" means appearing antisemitic to many, even to most, does that mean it "is" antisemitic? That seems a reasonable pragmatic verdict. Or does that depend on the existence of reasons to believe that it was intended as antisemitic? That seems a reasonable ethical judgement. Those who are being accused of "defending antisemitism'" in this thread are in fact indicating that they hold the latter view. Dictionaries typically list different senses of words by giving them different numbers. This is essentially, at least on the surface, an argument between different numbered definitions of a word. In reality of course it's about a revanchist faction within the Labour Party, and that factions fellow travellers to the right, seeking to reverse a political change in the party which they detest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: robomatic Date: 30 Mar 18 - 05:39 PM These threads haven't actually settled down to an agreement as to what 'anti-Semitic' even means, and I'm referring back to a thread that explicitly tried to address that term. The term has become a dog whistle by more than one side, as evidenced in the messages above. Don't forget that the Russians tried to justify their actions against Ukraine by branding the Ukrainians as anti-semitic. This was just as diversionary to the events in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine as in UK politics. It's a matter of perception of another's perception, as stated above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 30 Mar 18 - 05:41 PM The mural featured six men: some Jewish and some not. How did the artist differentiate between them? He gave the Jews big noses and other exaggerated facial features. This is playground antisemitism masquerading as profound insight. Remarkably, the artist claimed to be surprised Jews took offence, complaining that “some of the older white Jewish folk in the local community had an issue with me portraying their beloved #Rothschild or #Warburg etc as the demons they are”. Mear One says his mural was about class, not race, but this is no excuse. Antisemitism has always had a left-wing version that fingered Jewish capitalists as the enemy of the good. Saying rich Jews are a class enemy is no less vile than saying they are a racial one. Not sure why that mural is antisemitic? Let me explain... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 18 - 06:03 PM Your last sentence hits the nail on the head. And without wanting to get all philosophical at this time of night on Good Friday, having been celebrating (two days prematurely) the rising of the Lord with a goodly amount of Lidl's finest Primitivo, here's my take on that bloody mural for what it's worth. I have to imagine myself casually walking past it in 2012. I think it's an ugly and unattractive thing. I struggle to understand the imagery beyond the depiction of rich men making even more money on the backs of poor people. Any hint of antisemitism utterly eludes me until someone points out that several of the blokes have, er, hooked noses. I wonder whether the artist, had he meant to portray his antisemitism, could have been just little more explicit about it. Now my antennae been tuned to racism for decades. So I do wonder how Joe Average might have regarded the mural. What I really think about the people who claim to see "rampant antisemitism" where there is none is that they're victims of their own stereotyping of Jews. In other words, they may be closet antisemites... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 18 - 06:05 PM That was to Kevin.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Mar 18 - 06:33 PM WHAT THIS IS REALLY ABOUT Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: robomatic Date: 30 Mar 18 - 06:58 PM Jim Carroll: Way to miss the point, though consistently in your case. I was going to link to the exact same article, only in a new thread. It does not belong here and again you are on target to get this thread closed for cause. Kudos on getting a link to work and not copying without attribution the whole damn thing as you have done in other threads. So I sense improvement. Now if only we can track our subjects correctly. . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Mar 18 - 06:59 PM "This is playground antisemitism masquerading as profound insight." No it isn't - it is a protest against what big business is doing to poorer people Personally I don't like the mural for the same reason I don't like most political protest street art - it simplifies and caricatures - it stereotypes and oversimplifies everything it depicts This argument reminds me of the old protests over the depiction of black people as criminals back in the sixties - I was as undecided than as I am now. THere are black criminals, just as there are Jewish Bankers (or the other way around) If the artist here had made a point of emphasising the cultural aspects of the figures there might be a point - he didn't in my opinion I still feel uneasy about the mural Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Mar 18 - 07:04 PM NOW IF THE ARTIST HAD SAID THIS IN HIS MURAL !! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Mar 18 - 07:30 PM Can I just mention I think we have given the mural far more detailed attention than it deserves in this thread. It is a distraction which anti Corbyn forces need us to be wasting too much time and energy on... Likewise I understand and respect Jim's passionate commitment to protesting against the Govt of Israel. He has made a strong case in this thread, and I applaud him for doing so. But repetition will never make Keith and co agree with the validity of his committed position, but it will risk yet another thread closing flame war. Maybe it's time now to try to move on back to my intended purpose for opening this thread. which was to ask Keith & bob to give their considered response to the interview with a serious Jewish supporter of Corbyn. A man who is representative of Jewish Labour members and supporters who are opposed to this over heated Jewish anti Corbyn attack... We've allowed Keith & bob too much time to evade responding to this interview, while we have been drawn into indulging their need to instead concentrate on this trumped up mural distraction... Thanks mates... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 18 - 07:40 PM The issue of the current violence against Palestinians absolutely belongs here, robomatic. Why? Because we've been hammering home for years, some of us, how the Israeli regime mistreats Palestinians. And for years we've had Israeli regime apologists telling us that it didn't happen/it was justified/they want to wipe us off the map and that we're antisemitic if we don't fully agree with all that. You do not get to exclude those aspects of Israeli regime behaviour that don't exactly suit your mission to cast Israel as some sort of paragon in the region. They are not and they share a number of attributes with some other distasteful and repressive regimes of the past. Sorry if you can't see it. Thing is, in the eyes of bobad and Keith I can't say things like that unless I'm antisemitic. I can't say that the mural isn't antisemitic unless I'm antisemitic myself. Well I can say those things loud and proud and I've fought racism in all its forms all through my adult life, and I'm getting on a bit now by the way. So please stop trying to use that Keith trick of telling us what we can or can't discuss in this thread. Not your call. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Mar 18 - 07:52 PM Better to focus on one issue, even when it is closely linked to another issue. There's another thread about the current killings on the Gaza border. Combining discussion about both issues merely encourages and enables evasion and gets in the way of any lingering hopes of holding a genuine discussion rather than a messy mudslinging contest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Mar 18 - 07:55 PM I go along entirely with Steve on this Unless you are prepared to argue that all this sin't about BDS, what is happening at the moment is and has been from day one, about what is happening to the Palestinians at the has=ds of th Israelis I am happy to post on the other thread, but that isn't going to stop me posting here - sorry Punky Don't let Keith and and his fellow Holocaust hostage takers call the shots here Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Mar 18 - 08:13 PM Jim - mate,you can call me Pfr - that's my preference.. Punky sounds like a pet miniature bulldog, the type of poor mutt that get's ponced up in fancy dress, and carried about in a handbag... I want you to keep posting here, I always respect your knowledge and wisdom... I'll trust your judgement to know the point when your adversaries have provoked you into playing their game for long enough, and when to stop letting them have the satisfaction of winding you up to get threads closed down... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Mar 18 - 08:36 PM I've made the case for linking the issues, Kevin. I take your point about tactics but I don't really do tactics. We get called antisemitic for not calling the mural antisemitic. We'll get called antisemitic for sure for criticising the Israeli response today. This thread is all about people being called antisemitic in the most unjustifiable way. All part of the same issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Mar 18 - 08:55 PM The way my mind works, is I need to be aware of complex interrelated issues, but try to maintain a sense of priority as I follow and try to unravel the intertwined strands... Here I depend on more experienced and knowledgeable fellow mudcatters, sometimes even those I totally disagree with and find objectionable... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Mar 18 - 08:58 PM Everyone does tactics. But some tactics are self defeating. Doing precisely what your adversary expects you to do and wants you to do is a very bad tactic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:32 AM For what it's worth, I think the actions of Israel have a direct bearing on the issue in question. As I keep saying, this is not about a long gone mural but about discrediting Jeremy Corbyn. He is pro Palestinian and his opponents have latched on to the tactic of linking this with antisemitism. The right wing media have played their part and Corbyn is playing a blinder by not rising to it. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 18 - 03:26 AM "Jim - mate,you can call me Pfr - that's my preference.." Sorry - no offence meant - will do "The way my mind works, is I need to be aware of complex interrelated issues," Not sure you mean Labour antisemitism or the Israeli slaughter or the invented Labour antisemitism - in the case of the latter, it's too early for this Last night the death toll appeared to be 19 and the wounded over 1,000 - the first of the dead appears to be a local farmer cutting beet- the next step will be to claim the Israelis are the victims in all this As far as Labour so-called antisemitism is concerned, it needs to be remembered that from the very first, these accusation came following Jeremy Corbyn's announcement to support he Palestinian human rights demands, and all the Parliamentary complaints came following official visits of Labour 'Friends of Israel' to Israel Within a couple of weeks of these visits the accusations began to emerge. Previously, a woman MP who had announced herself an admirer of Netanyahu and had attended one of his meetings as an observer, announced that she was being "bullied" by male MPs - this led to a claim that Labour had a culture of bullying Later, it was found that antisemitism was more effective and historical examples that had lain dormant for years were dragged out - the mural being the latest of these. Whether the mural is antisemitic is a moot point - I don't believe the artist intended it so - it was, at the very worst, insensitive but Coryn's involvement with it took place before the accusaions of antisemitism were a twinkle in the eyes of the anti-BDS claims Had it been a real example of antisemitism it would have emerged long before this - the team in Israel ferreting away looking for rocks to hurl at Corbyn would have raised it before now. The next will probably be that leading Labour members are found to sing some of the anti-semitic songs common among schoolchildren during their schooldays. For Keith and his fellow Israeli-atrocity supporters it is yeat another stick to attack a decent and principled political party following "bullying" and "sexual harassment" - all grist for their mill In my opinion, it is essential to keep in mind how this originated and where it is coming from, that is why the slaughter that is happening on the Israeli Border is so essential to this argument - it really is a perfect example of what opposing the behaviour of The Israeli Regime is all about. The mural has become one of Keith's 'stonewalling' tactics - while people are arguing about that they are ignoring the real causes PLease don't let that happen Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Mar 18 - 03:41 AM Steve, Denying it is not defending anything. Yes it is. The only criticism levelled against it is anti-Semitism. If you deny that it, you are defefending it against that criticism. And remember, you are the only two Labour members any of us can find who deny that anti-Semitism. Hard evidence that you are wrong and Labour the Guardian and me are right. almost certainly because you can't bring yourself to say that it's all about hooked noses. it is about anti-Semitic tropes. Read how your leaders, comrades and the Guardian explain it. I accept their explanation. Why don't you? McGrath, the level of name calling and worse has exceeded the level seen as tolerable, so it gets shut as toxic, and a health hazard. I suspect that with some posters this can be what they try to achieve. Name them and shame them. Abuse is destroying debate on this forum. Coming from you, people might take notice. Robo, These threads haven't actually settled down to an agreement as to what 'anti-Semitic' even means I am assuming the definitions accepted and adopted by the Labour Party conference. Our extremists reject that definition. PFR, We've allowed Keith & bob too much time to evade responding to this interview, I responded in my first post. His views are entirely valid, but are a minority view among Labour MPs and Labour Jews. I have been putting the majority view. What is your objection? Steve The issue of the current violence against Palestinians absolutely belongs here, robomatic. Why? Because we've been hammering home for years, some of us, how the Israeli regime mistreats Palestinians. So start a thread. It is not relevant to anti-Semitism in UK. Dave, As I keep saying, this is not about a long gone mural but about discrediting Jeremy Corbyn Supposing you were right, we can still stick to the issue of anti-Semitism in UK. Israel does not come in to it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 18 - 03:44 AM "Israel does not come in to it." You have been told exactly how it does - all the denials in the world will not change that Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Mar 18 - 03:52 AM I disagree that events in Israel are pertinent to anti_Semitism in UK. That is my view, and also that of Robo, Bobad and McGrath. Nothing said here has made me question that self-evident fact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 Mar 18 - 04:02 AM Well said, Jim, but I would say that while what is going on in Palestine is of great importance and we all need to be aware of it, in this case it is as much a diversion as the mural. The thread was to present to the two main exponents of labelling the Labour party as antisemitic the views of a Jewish Labour member. The issue of trying to discredit Corbyn, While not as important as what is going on in Palestine, does need to be discussed without being sidetracked. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 18 - 04:05 AM "I disagree that events in Israel are pertinent to anti_Semitism in UK." I know you do Keith - you've been defending these murdering bastards for years Robo and Bobad and supporters of Israel who have adopted the antisemitic stance of describing anybody who criticises Israel as "antisemitic" - Bobad is a hate-filled screaming troll who draws his "facts" from fascist sites - you have a soul-mate there Does Mac think Israel has no part in this or are you attempting to use a decent member of this forum to attack the views of others, as is your wont? Whatever - your vies on Israel count for nothing - they could drop one of their chemical weapons on Trafalgar Square and you would say it was justified Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:33 AM Antiseptics are basically a good thing. However, as with everything, you can take things too far. Never add TCP to food. Not even as a salad dressing. If you are bitten by an insect on your willy. By all means rub in TCP ointment. However taken to extremes this can cause insanity and is decidedly weakening. I feel if we sort out antiseptics, anti aircraft, antirrhinums and my Aunty Mary...and then work our way slowly back to antisemitism....we might start getting somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Mar 18 - 07:07 AM Steve, PFR, Jim and Dave, The Deputy Leader of the Labour Party has said today that the party is being damaged by people like you who claim that the anti-Semitism allegations are a conspiracy against Corbyn. Got that boys? People like you, not me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Mar 18 - 07:31 AM "Jeremy has said to those people who have been using this line that it (anti-Semitism) is a way to attack him, he doesn't want that. We have acknowledged that anti-Semitism has emerged in the Labour Party and we are taking tough measures to deal with it." "I acknowledge that there is a problem with anti-Semitism in the party" "She (Shawcroft) then said that the acccusations were whipped up against Jeremy. I think that is disgusting. I actually think it undermines Jeremy." https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09x8p56#play I hour 56 minutes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 31 Mar 18 - 07:35 AM Eight out of ten Labour members believe the accusations of anti-Semitism within the Labour Party are being exaggerated to damage Jeremy Corbyn's reputation, according to a YouGov poll. The Labour leader was praised by 80% of members who said he was 'doing well' as leader, and 61% who thought he was 'personally responding well' to the claims of anti-Semitism in the party. But Maajid Nawaz took great passion in explaining the differences between anti-Semitism and the legitimate criticism of a government. Maajid said: "When you get to a situation when people can't even recognise anti-Semitism anymore, I think it behooves us just to pause for a moment and issue a sober reminder. "Dear anyone on the hard-left, and the hard-right who are confused as to exactly what anti-Semitism is and what the difference is between anti-Semitism and challenging a government. Maajid's Sobering Reminder Of What Anti-Semitism Is |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 Mar 18 - 07:50 AM Still nothing of your own to say then, Keith? Just parroting the words of others to further your case with no real understanding of the context is no substitute for giving your own opinions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Mar 18 - 08:01 AM BBC Any Question this week. The first question was about anti-Semitism in Labour and all the panellists, Nimco Ali, Tristram Hunt, Mark Littlewood and Lionel Shriver said it was a problem of the Far Left within Labour. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09wvy1y Dave, Still nothing of your own to say then, Keith? Just parroting the words of others I am weary of having my moderate, mainstream views vilified and ridiculed by you Far Left extremists, so I quote people with the same views as me who you can not dismiss. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 Mar 18 - 08:47 AM And I have already said that if you give us your opinion I shall neither vilify nor ridicule it. Nor shall I ask you to substantiate it. If you are frightened of giving an opinion you have no place in any adult discussions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:01 AM For christs sake Keith give it a break and address the facts Your "moderate mainstream views" include arming Assad with riot control equipment including armoured cars, condoning the use of chemical weapons in Gaza (and selling the wherewithal to make them to Syria), claiming all male Muslims are implanted to have undarage sex, brading the Travelling Community as slave-owners, suggesting Irish schoolchildren have been brainwashed to hate Britain, appeasing the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees by describing Jewish witnesses soldiers and medical staff as liars, using raped and harassed women to score political points, defending obvious rapists and perverts because they belonged to the RIGHT party and were high up their political greasy, and now mounting a one-man obsessive campaign to claim a left wing party is riddled with racism TYou have involved yourself to a grotesque level; closing threads then re-opening others on the same subject with you bilious hatred of anything mildly to thee left of Attila the Hun You will deny all these, even though it is all on record, but those of us who have watched your increasingly irrational behaviour know it is true, so it doesn't really matter Argue your points honestly by addressing the replies you have been given, instead of pretending that they haven't and stop using people with enough problems as political soap-boxes Jim Caarroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:01 AM Don't fall for it Keith, it's their usual diversionary tactic when backed into a corner with egg on their face. They want to make it all about you as they become more and more isolated in their stance which is considered anti-Semitic even by their own party and its leader. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:02 AM THere are no "left wing extremists" here - if there are - name their extremism and see how it measures up to your own Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:04 AM THer - you've got Bobad - the hate vomiting Troll on your side - second best to God, I suppose Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:24 AM Are you prepared to give your opinion, bobab? Do you believe Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic? Do you believe that members of the Labour party are more likely to be antisemitic than anyone else? Why do you think the mural was antisemitic? I am not making anything about anyone. Just asking for honest opinion rather than the repetition of other people's views. The absence of anyone willing to tell us what they actually think themselves is quite telling in itself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:27 AM Jim, all lies. Dave, no-one would be surprised that I disagree with you. More surprising and interesting is the fact that my views are shared by your party and its leadership while, your extreme views are way out of sight of the party you pretend to support. I express my own views by quoting those senior Labour people who share my views. You seem unable to find any who share yours. Too extreme! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:46 AM They don't care about your or my views, which ironically are those of their party and its leader, Keith they're just looking for a reason to attack us personally. Keep on posting those comments from Labour party members, they are being shamed by them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:48 AM I am completely unconcerned whether you or anyone else shares my opinions Keith. My opinions are irrelevant in the scheme of things. Interesting that you say you share the views of the Labour party and yet you will not vote for them and you do your best to discredit them at every opportunity. Why is that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:48 AM If Keith can find quotations from high ranking members of the Labour party that back up his warped arguments. If there genuinely are Labour voices that sound like they agree with him. Then this is surely demonstrating a state of panic and division these persistent hostile attacks might be successfully creating amongst weaker minded politicians more concerned with self preservation than party unity and principles...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:52 AM Dave, you share the views of the Labour party and yet you will not vote for them and you do your best to discredit them at every opportunity. Why is that? I think Labour has moved too far Left to vote for them, but I have much common ground with Labour moderates and I voted Labour when those moderates were the majority. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 18 - 10:00 AM "Jim, all lies." Course they are Keith - pity they are all archived and have been re-presented to you over and over again I asked you for our "left wing extremism" - you leed agaan, didn't you? You must need a wheelbarrow to carry your nose when you walk about " which ironically are those of their party and its leader, Keith" Do you know any of us are members of the Labour Party Bobad, or are you making things up as your mate is constantly doing ? I am a member of nothing (except the local oral history group) and I haven't voted since Tony Blair came to the throne Keith gets off on being insulted otherwise he wouldn't invite it as often as he does Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Mar 18 - 11:07 AM Jim, Do you know any of us are members of the Labour Party Bobad Steve and Dave have self identified as Labour Party members, and Steve as being "Far Left." I asked you for our "left wing extremism" I gave you an example. Support for BDS. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 18 - 11:45 AM "I gave you an example. Support for BDS." Then millions of humanitarians - Jews, gentiles, Brits, Americans.... human Rights Groups, Political Parties are "Left wing extremists" We'll all be murdered in our beds BDS No terrorist aims, no armed revolution, not even an attempt to change society - just an effort to right wrongs and assist a people who are in trouble A ten-year blockade a wall cutting off farmers from their land, constant humiliation at checkpoint, being described as animals, CONSTANT EVICTIONS to make room for settlers with teh right ethnic makeup, massacres, destruction of homes and schools, massacres of unarmed refugees, chemical weapon attacks... all evidence of a terrorist state and all good reasons for a boycott THis LEFT WING EXTREMIST covers most of these points Boycotting goods of terrorist states is only extremism to extremists I have little doubt you took exactly the same stance to Apartheid South Africa - seems to be your "middle of the road" thing Now - once again - evidence of our "left wing extremism" Every time you post is a display of your horrific inhumanity and fascist leanings - which "go together like a horse and carriage" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 31 Mar 18 - 11:48 AM i think the painting was antisemitic. it looks a bit like the caricatures of Jews in Der Sturmer, and the cartoons of nazis by George Grosz. Thus accusing jews of being fascists and the orchestrators of all the world's economic problems simultaneously. however a lot of people can't see it. i think the likeliest thing is that Corbyn didn't pick up on the cultural references. After all he didn't know the Punic Wars were with Carthage, so he's not the most clued up guy in the world. However, he's a lot nicer than any of the alternatives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Mar 18 - 12:10 PM It seems to me the only time politicians and political pundits take a keen interest in modern art criticism and history, is when they want to ban a work of art... or use it as a political football..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 Mar 18 - 12:57 PM This thread just gave me a flash of inspiration. Playing hide and seek with the grandkids. I sat in plain sight and denied it was me. I won :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Mar 18 - 01:09 PM Dave - following certain logic... if one of the brighter kids pointed out you were obviously pretending not to be you, as you were in fact too easily recognised in your deception and conspiracy to pull the wool over the eyes of all the kids in the room... You could have had that kid thrown out of the building, maligned in the local paper and school playground, and possibly arrested...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:13 PM That sounds a damn fine plan to me :-):-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:16 PM Christine Shawcroft has resigned from the NEC to be replaced by comedian Eddie Izzard. Anyone still deny Labour has a problem, or was I right all along as usual? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:28 PM Keith - no one can deny Labour are suffering problem upon problem being heaped upon them by all who fear Labour winning the next general election...!!! Sadly though, too many problems are emerging from within Labour, caused by disruptive members who prioritise divisive fringe interests and issues above forming the next government...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:34 PM I meant that Labour has a problem with anti-Semitism. Anyone still in denial? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:45 PM Keith - disagreeing with you and your warped opinions and logic on the extent of any Labour anti-semitism, does not equate with 'denial'... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: David Carter (UK) Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:55 PM Denying something and being "in denial" seem to be different things. Yes Keith, my view is that all forms of racism including but not limited to antisemitism are more prevalent amongst people with a right wing worldview. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Mar 18 - 04:53 PM If a lot of people can't see it, Al, including people like me who have dedicated much of their adult lives to opposing racism, then all I can say is the artist didn't do much of a job depicting hatred of Jews. It's a picture of capitalism making capitalists richer exploiting working-class people. If you can actually identify all the men in the pic as Jews, fair enough. But if only one or two or three are supposed to be Jews and the others not Jews, then the whole antisemitism case falls. So tell us who all those blokes are if you can. If you can't, no case. I've had a lot of my family round this weekend. Hooked noses are a big thing in my clan. Not a Jew among 'em. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Mar 18 - 04:56 PM My impression is that virtually everyone who is sympathetic to BDS also favoured the boycott campaign against apartheid South Africa, or would have if they'd been around in those days. Would I also be right in suggesting that those who oppose BDS could logically be assumed to have felt similarly hostile to that boycott campaign? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 31 Mar 18 - 05:11 PM i think theres no real antisemitism, as such. I doubt if anyone would mind living next door to a jew. What there is is, is profound disagreement about the state of Israel. Jim accuses them of all kinds of savagery - overlooking that the arab nations surrounding Israel have stayed their belief is that Israel should perish ; they have been invaded twice, and really they have not come off a war footing since 1967. You may feel that Blair lied his head off about the WMD. But Saddam's plans for a supergun were bloody near fruition. On the other hand it has to be said that everyone who sees the Israeli military in action chokes on it. Remember David Mellor's visit..? The truth as usual is somewhere in the middle. We cannot hope to have a civilised nation if we are yelling out litanies of hate that involve our indigenous racial groups. Let this be a country where mutual toleration is exemplified. I can't see any point in bitching at each other. Theres enough anger in this situation as it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 31 Mar 18 - 05:35 PM My impression is that virtually everyone who is sympathetic to BDS also favoured the boycott campaign against apartheid South Africa, Absolutely not. BDS is a flagrantly anti-Semitic enterprise as one of its stated goal is the elimination of the state of Israel as the national homeland of the Jewish people. There is no comparison between the two movements except for those who want to see the Jewish people once again subjected to annihilation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:20 PM Apartheid was defended as necessary for the survival of the Boer people. Sure enough the end of apartheid meant the end of what were effectively homogenous Boer nations. The Boers, along with non-Boer white peoples, now share the country with the native population. There are indeed significant differences between apartheid South Africa and Israel. The native South Africans did not find themselves forced to leave their homes and their homeland, but were denied all political rights. The great majority of natives of what is now Israel did become exiles. On the other hand while both countries preserved the forms and institutions of democracy, in Israel the minority of Palestinians who stayed have continued to have political rights, though of course, that did not involve having any political power, since they are always in a tiny minority. A return of the exiles in the case of Israel would indeed mean an end to the current Nature of the State of Israel. It would mean a return to the original Zionist vision of Jewish homeland shared with native Arabs - both being "Children of Abraham". In face of the evident determination of the present Israel government in practice to obstruct any two-state solution in Israel/Palestine, that alternative of a country shared between the two peoples as equal partners seems the only alternative to a continued dictatorship over the whole territory. A democratic Parliamentary dictatorship, in the same way that Apartheid South Africa was a democratic Parliamentary dictatorship. .............. You indicate that you do not believe that most supporters of BDS would have favoured the boycott of apartheid South Africa, bobad. I assume you have some basis for that assertion, but it is very much at odds with my experience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:32 PM "its stated goal is the elimination of the state of Israel a" That is a blatant lie These are the stated aims of BDS Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall; Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194.Can you actually produce a document declaring that that is a "stated aimm? You are lying if you can't - you are lying anyway The star=ted aimd of BDS can be found |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:40 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:43 PM STATED BDS POLICY Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:43 PM "Absolutely not. BDS is a flagrantly anti-Semitic enterprise as one of its stated goal is the elimination of the state of Israel..." What absolute, arrant, desperate nonsense. BDS is a response to the mistreatment of Palestinians by the Israeli regime, no more, no less. There is no such "stated goal" and you know it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:45 PM Jim Carrol the flamer! your language of debate when someone says something you don't like is deplorable "That is a blatant lie" "You are lying if you can't - you are lying anyway" Have a good read at Kevin McGraths post and style of how to present an issue I would refer you to the good scottish word "Keich" |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:52 PM Well, Kenny, Jim may not be a trained tactician but he cuts through the bullshit on this issue better than anyone I know. For the benefit of bobad, who thinks that BDS is about wiping Israel off the map: "BDS is an inclusive, anti-racist human rights movement that is opposed on principle to all forms of discrimination, including anti-semitism and Islamophobia." [BDS website] |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:56 PM Remember, just because you believe what someone says is completely untrue, and have excellent reasons for doing so, that does not mean they are liars. A liar is someone who says what they know and believe to be false. If you believe what you are saying is true, you aren't a liar, even when what you are saying may in fact be a lie. That is why it was never right to call Tony Blair a liar. He was incapable of not believing everything he said must by definition be true. I think there are quite a lot of people like that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 18 - 07:05 PM "your language of debate when someone says something you don't like is deplorable " And your defence for the massacre of unarmed protesters is a damn sight more deplorable I have become sickened at the behaviour of the defence of the mudred of innocent people on who the blood hasn't had time to dry My "language" - are you joking? It seems if you word your atrocities carefully, you can get away with any you choose to support You are one sick crowd, you really are Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 31 Mar 18 - 07:13 PM Thanks Kevin a person on mudcat with a sense of humour is appreciated Jim Carroll "And your defence for the massacre of unarmed protesters is a damn sight more deplorable I have become sickened at the behaviour of the defence of the mudred of innocent people on who the blood hasn't had time to dry My "language" - are you joking? It seems if you word your atrocities carefully, you can get away with any you choose to support You are one sick crowd, you really are" You are putting words into print that i never commented on I never for a minute agreed with the poster I only commented on your style and your reply proved my point perfectly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Mar 18 - 07:54 PM I'm getting confused now.... Is this the thread about "G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018"...????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Mar 18 - 08:20 PM KennyB I apologise if I overstated my case and misjudged your position - I have had several years of Keith's extremism - his latest massacre dent=ying is beyond a joke I have just come off the other thread where I was met with an (unidentified) extremist blog denigrating the victims of this killing by one of our regular trolls I enjoy debating with people I don't necessarily agree with but I fear this forum has become a soapbox for the most extreme racist views by a couple of peopel I no longer know how to handle this politely in circumstances like this Enough really is enough, as far as I'm concerned when it comes to yet another example of the mass murder of non combatants, which is being defended here Once again, my apologies if I misread your intention Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Mar 18 - 08:45 PM In any situation like this it is always claimed initially that the victims were there as supporters of violent struggle. Remember Bloody Sunday? Sometimes of course this can be the case. It is perfectly possible for someone who has seen violence as the only option to be brought to try another kind of struggle. In fact, unless people who have been committed to violence can do this, there can be little hope of escaping the tragic game of atrocity and response arrocity, which has lasted for decades. The stated aims of the people organising this campaign has been to engage in nonviolent struggle, meaning the use of tactics that are not intended to kill opponents. The fact that all the dead so far have been protestors is evidence that the protesters have been holding to that. The common practice of the authorities in situations like this invariably is to undermine protesters' claims to be nonviolent as false, either by provoking violent response, or by demonstrating that victims were really terrorists, in some cases by falsifying evidence and planting weapons. Or of course by defining slingshots and stones as equivalent to guns and bombs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Apr 18 - 03:19 AM McGrath, those who oppose BDS could logically be assumed to have felt similarly hostile to that boycott campaign? You mean people like Jeremy Corbyn?https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/13/jeremy-corbyn-does-not-support-boycott-of-israel-bds-movement |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: The Sandman Date: 01 Apr 18 - 03:46 AM Has anyone here read the book, STALKER, have you read it,Keith?if you have not ,i suggest you read it before making any more comments on shot to kill policies or Northern Ireland. STALKER was Deputy chief constable of Greater Manchester police.The Stalker Inquiry He headed the eponymous Stalker Inquiry, an investigation into the shootings of suspected members of the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) by the Royal Ulster Constabulary in 1983, and for his temporary suspension from duty and removal from the inquiry in 1986, based on false allegations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 01 Apr 18 - 04:18 AM i'm not lying. outright or otherwise. My aunt was politician, who travelled extensively through the middle east. The countries surrounding Israel made no bones about it. They wanted it gone. What do you think the reaction of Theodore Roosevelt would have been if you had asked him to return the lands occupied by Indians in the 1830's. That is a similar time to the time Israel has been there. The arab nations have got extreme wealth. If they ran their countries like modern democracies, they would be as contented as its possible to be. But they don't. Their human rights records are bloody awful. They make no attempt to educate and employ their citizens. They just blame everyone else. The West in general and Israel in particular. I get on average twenty e-mails from discontented English liberals bitching about Israel for every one about human rights abuses in arab countries. I said to one guy - you are swamping my inbox with e-mails about Israel being a bastard. He suggested I unfriend him - he will think no less of me, he says. Its not even that I disagree. Israel should behave better. But for godsake - you're all old enough - you were there in 1967 at the time of the 6 day war. The anti Israel rhetoric couldn't have been any plainer. That is the unchanged agenda - the elimination of Israel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Apr 18 - 04:35 AM "In any situation like this it is always claimed initially that the victims" Spot on Mac These claims work at two levels Usually there is a knee-jerk reaction of those who have carried out the atrocity to excuse their behaviour - later the authorities form this into a defence which becomes the official line - Dick Miles is right - Bloody Sunday is a typical example of it happening in Ireland This disgusting blog presented by Bobad containing "information" that could not have possibly been gathered in the hours it appeared, shows that an Islamophobic Group and the Israeli Security Forces are now working together to denigrate the victims of this massacre before their corpses are cold and laid in the ground That suggests that there is much more to come No side in this struggle has clean hands - it is a dirty war, as all wars are, but in the middle there are millions of people who are being driven from their homes because their culture doesn't fit or because they are the wrong colour When it can be announced by a leading Israel newspaper that "over half the population of Israel regards African immigrants as cancers" this takes on not just a struggle for homes and territory, but a race war TIMES of ISRAEL This racism has long been a part of the arguments on this forum - "all male Pakistanis implanted to have underage sex" from Keith, huge cut-'n-pastes from Bobad claiming the the Muslim culture has been a degenerate one since pre-Christian times - dragged from racist and openly fascist sites as "evidence. Now we have BDS's "openly stated aims to end the Israeli state. If this is a "stated" policy, then Bobad needs to produce those statements - he won't, of course - no such "statements exist. Keith, Bobad, and now another half-hearted individual have taken up teh Israeli line that all criticism of Israel is "antsemitism" and have turned these discussions into mud-slinging hate-platforms. They need to act as responsible posters and clean up their acts or to go away and thet the decent people of this forum slug out their differences in a decent and humane manner If they don't, they should be frozen out and prevented from using this forum s a platform for their hate and intolerance - not just against the victims of this war, but also against other members of this forum who disagree with them This is not about "terrorism, as Bobad claims; it is about ordinary peoples' lives and livelihoods Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Apr 18 - 05:00 AM By the way Al - you really to need to read up on your Israel history (my uncle was among the last British troops to steam out of Palestine when the Government decided they should do so - to the sound of hand-grenades being thrown into occupied homes to make room for the new settlers. THIS STATEMENT from the Founding Father of the State of Israel (put up here buy aby a leading Jewish intellectual), lays on the line the aims of the new settlers and the problems in obtaining a peace. It is no accident that, despite Israeli Laws of disclosure after a period, many of David Ben Gurion's archived papers are now locked away from the public gaze. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Apr 18 - 05:57 AM Israel comes in for particular attention by people concerned for human rights for several reasons, none of which so far as the overwhelming majority of critics has anything to do with its being Jewish. One reason is that our countries' governments provide significant backing for the Israeli government, whatever it does. That is especially true of the USA. This factor also applies in the case of Saudi Arabia, where the policy of our governments in ignoring human rights abuse and supplying weapons with genocidal capacity is strongly imp Von osed by many of the same people who are criticised for focusing attention unfairly on Israel. Another reason is that Israel has a democratic political culture and structures, and makes great play of how different in this respect it is from neighbouring countries. But a commitment to democracy and human rights carries an expectation that human rights will be respected. When Israel is seeen as failing on this front it is inviting people to cry foul. And they are aware that there is a tradition within Israel's political culture that shares these concerns, and is in fact founded on a concern for human rights that is centuries old. A third reason is that there is a sustained effort by the Israeli government to drum up support for it in our countries, both at a national and popular level. The more this is seen as succeeding, the more many people feel a duty to oppose that. And a fourth reason in relation to BDS is that the experience with Apartheid South Africa encourages people to hope that the same effect could in time come about in the case of Israel, and that this could mean a way out from a tragic human situation that avoids the appalling violence which is seen as only too likely to occur within a few years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Apr 18 - 07:14 AM Israel is proposing to send troops into Gaza (again) to "stamp out terorism" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 Apr 18 - 08:45 AM Once again, Keith, as you seem to have trouble grasping this concept. No one has ever denied there is a problem with antisemitism in the Labour party. If you think anyone has, point us to it. By pure logic, If there is a certain percentage of people that are antisemitic then any organisation will have a similar percentage. Except of course any neo Nazi organisation which will have more. The big difference with the Labour party is that the media and people like you are using it against them. The other difference is that they are doing something about it. Unlike the others. Now, once more, I am asking for your opinion here. Not someone else's. Do you believe that members of the Labour party are more likely to be antisemitic than anyone else? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 Apr 18 - 10:24 AM He'll only tell you what selected somebody-elses think, Dave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Apr 18 - 10:52 AM Dave, No one has ever denied there is a problem with antisemitism in the Labour party. You and others have claimed that Labour has no more of an anti-Semitism problem than any party. It clearly does. It is no good blaming the media and me. The complaints come from inside the party. A long term Jewish donor has just bailed, and the complaints keep coming. Other parties do not have this problem. Labour did not until the Far Left took over. Sandman, Keith?if you have not ,i suggest you read it before making any more comments on shot to kill policies or Northern Ireland. I have never made any such comments. If your post is meant to be some kind of threat, you need to make it a bit clearer for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 Apr 18 - 11:18 AM "You and others have claimed that Labour has no more of an anti-Semitism problem than any party. It clearly does. It is no good blaming the media and me. The complaints come from inside the party." Keith - as I have indicated previously... You will never be respected or taken seriously by any reasonable intelligent well informed mudcatters who read your persistently over exaggerated and warped deliberate misconstruing of 'facts'... Absence of reporting about complaints regarding anti semitism in the tory party only emphasises the nature of predominantly pro tory biased uk news media... It has been explained to you time and time again that labour responds quickly and firmly to complaints and does so in public to prove transparency and serious commitment to tackling alleged problems. Entirely the opposite approach to institutionalised tory secrecy and cover ups...!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Apr 18 - 11:40 AM So Labour's problem is not real. It is all made up. You should tell the leadership because they, like everyone else, know that it is real. You have heard them say it. You are in fantasy land. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 Apr 18 - 12:04 PM Keith - you know I didn't say anything at all like that... Yet again you are deliberately jumping to entirely the wrong conclusion in order to force misleading words and your warped ideas into my mouth... The only people you could ever impress and influence with your clumsy tactics are small children and half awake idiots. You won't find many of either in mudcat BS threads.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Apr 18 - 12:33 PM PFR, I took your post to mean that the other parties are equally anti-Semitic but their members for some reason all tolerate it in silence. I have read the post again and I still think that. Please be clear. Do you recognise that anti-Semitism has arisen as a problem within Labour while other parties do not suffer to a similar extent, or is it an illusion? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Apr 18 - 12:44 PM "So Labour's problem is not real." It is no more a problem that is is in any other party Keith For a non-racist party, any antisemitism is not only real but it's a problem As Dave said, nobody has ever at any time claimed that it is not a problem What we have said is that it is not the problem you have painted it to be You haven't responded to the fact that it has been claimed by a Jewish member of Parliement that there is probably mor antisemitism in teh Tory Party than there is in Labour - antisemitism, bigotry and racism has always fornd a home with the Tories - even in wartime when news was filtering back about what was happening in Germany Tories You've already suggsted that antisemitic songs in The RED BOOK were as harmless as the theme tune from Dad's Army THAT'S HOW CONCERNED YOU ARE ABOUT ANTISEMITISM (another denial on the way, I suspect) You refuse to respond to anything here - you never have. Antisemitism is prsent in every walk of British Society - Corbyn is attemopting to do something about it - nobody else is You are using the Jewish People to denigrate an anti-racist Party while ignoring the fact that it is present in all parties. You are even hiding your own racism - your hated of Pakistanis and Gypsies - all presented for you over and over again, so it's pretty pointless to deny it By supporting Israeli massacres, as you are, you are proving your own antisemitism Over two years ago a leading British Muslim accused the Tories of having a serious Islamophobia problem - where was your campaigning then? Is anti-Muslim racism any less important than supporting a racist regime claiming to be acting on behalf for the Jewish people? You will either deny or ignore this - it doesn't matter - it's not for your benefit - your silence and denials speak for themselves Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 Apr 18 - 12:53 PM Keith - sorry, you leave me baffled at your failure to understand and communicate what you actually mean... Tell you what, find us a genuine quote from Corbyn or his ministers in waiting, stating something along these lines... " WE agree with Keith off that mudcat - we have a much worse problem than any other party, even the traditionally racist and secretive tories have no problem as bad as us..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 Apr 18 - 01:00 PM I just realised it's April fools day... Ok Keith you got us well and good.. for a while there I actually believed you were that daft as to be so convinced labour were the most anti semitic party in the land... Nice one Keith... Grrrr... we'll get you back this day next year... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 01 Apr 18 - 01:08 PM Jim , think about it. With the oil wealth that many of these nations possess - they were in a better position to build the superfactories than China. They could educate their populations and piss rings round the rest of the world. Instead, every time there is a terrorist outrage - you think oh shit! the young methodists are at it again. Its you who are being racist, for you are saying these people are victims and incapable of calling the shots. No one gives you anything in this life if you insist on ignoring the way the world turns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 Apr 18 - 01:20 PM Al - some of us are trying to 'self moderate' and keep this thread on track about nasty allegations against Labour.. please could follow your line of argument with Jim over in the dedicated Gaza demonstrations thread.. cheers mate... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Apr 18 - 01:40 PM "Instead, every time there is a terrorist outrage - you think oh shit! the young methodists are at it again." I don't get your point Al I hope you are not suggesting I support the Muslim despots - you need to read what I and everybody have always said It is the people who are caught in the middle in all this - not the Sheiks, or Assad Opposing the ethnic cleansing and the mass murder that is taking place in Gaza is a million miles away from supporting the Saudi regime They are as bad as one another If you are suggesting that one oact of terror (by the Muslims) justifies the ethnic cleansing of the Gazans - hen it is most certainly you who is the racist - it's ordinary people being driven off their land we are talking about - not terrorists or politicians Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Apr 18 - 01:48 PM Corbyn, "On Monday, Mr Corbyn acknowledged anti-Jewish prejudice had surfaced within Labour and it had been wrong for some people to dismiss it "as a matter of a few bad apples" and called for a meeting with Jewish community leaders. He pledged to deal with allegations of abuse more quickly and improve "political education" among activists." |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Apr 18 - 02:09 PM Whole quote (Guardian) " Corbyn issued a “sincere apology” that acknowledged that his previous responses had been inadequate. “I recognise that antisemitism has surfaced within the Labour party, and has too often been dismissed as simply a matter of a few bad apples,” he said on Twitter. “This has caused pain and hurt to Jewish members of our party and to the wider Jewish community in Britain. I am sincerely sorry for the pain which has been caused, and pledge to redouble my efforts to bring this anxiety to an end.” " Note, other parties have not caused pain and hurt to the Jewish communtity by their anti-Semitism. Only Labour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 Apr 18 - 02:21 PM Keith - your quotes are flimsy and do not support your warped conclusions... These quotes actually serve to confirm our assertations that you are deliberately perversely wrong headed...!!! Try to work out for yourself why that is.. We are fed up with spoon feeding you reasoned and informed explanations which you persist in ignoring... I will be courteous and presume you are doing this deliberately for tactical purposes, and not because you are failing to comprehend due to plain stupidity...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Apr 18 - 03:02 PM No rsponse only repetition as usual No case |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 01 Apr 18 - 03:53 PM sorry. apologies to pfr and JIm. I think its because I'm getting old. I lose track of the line of conversation. Its a bit like a football match - really you choose your favourite side and cheer it on. The twin constant refrain that Islamist terrorists are not the fault of Islam, alongside the oft repeated descant that the Israeli army are a gang of racist bastards - might lead one to suppose that areas of the Labour party have a slight antisemitic bias. Still who else are you gonna vote for? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: The Sandman Date: 01 Apr 18 - 04:53 PM I am not making threats. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Apr 18 - 08:21 PM Perhaps its time to put Keith's and Bobad's concern about Antisemitism where it belongs once and for all. Some time ago, I put up up a story I had heard as a child that, at the time the news of what was happening in the concentration camps in Germany, a member of the Tory party was overheard saying that it had all been made up by "WHINGEING YIDS" Keith - true to form, leapt to the defence of his party and claimed that I WAS A LIAR AND I HAD MADE IT UP - IT WAS ILLOGICAL He continued to do so for some time so I put up the information of a wartime organisation made up of Tory MPs, Members of the House of Lords and leading British businessmen. Keith continued to dispute my argument, so I put up some facts: The Right Club In May 1939 Archibald Ramsay, the Tory MP for Peebles and Southern Midlothian, founded a secret society called the Right Club. This was an attempt to unify all the different right-wing groups in Britain. Or in the leader's words of "co-ordinating the work of all the patriotic societies". In his autobiography, The Nameless War, Ramsay argued: "The main object of the Right Club was to oppose and expose the activities of Organized Jewry, in the light of the evidence which came into my possession in 1938. Our first objective was to clear the Conservative Party of Jewish influence, and the character of our membership and meetings were strictly in keeping with this objective." I also put up one of the many poems written by Archibald Ramsey, the founder of the organisation and published in the organisations publication, The Red Book: Archibald Ramsay (11) Anti-Semitic poem distributed by the Right Club in 1939. Land of dope and Jewry Land that once was free All the Jew boys praise thee Whilst they plunder thee Poorer still and poorer Grow thy true-born sons Faster still and faster They're sent to feed the guns. Land of Jewish finance Fooled by Jewish lies In press and books and movies While our birthright dies Longer still and longer Is the rope they get But - by the God of battles 'Twill serve to hang them yet. Keith's immediate response was: Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened? From: Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:57 PM "When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"." Who was it? What is your source? Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary! He later posted: Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened? From: Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:16 PM More dishonesty. I did not mention "Dad's Army" at all!! I merely offered an anti Fascist song to match your fascist one, making the point that finding a song is not evidence. Of course I know about a few fascists and anti semites in Britain. I have discussed them on this forum. Name a country that never had any. They were of so little influence here that we took in a hundred thousand Jewish refugees, and went to war with Hitler. Did you not know that? Remember - all this was around the Time Hitler was herding the German Jews into the Ghettos and preparing for their mass extermination. On another thread at a later date I raised the poem again (Keith continued to defend his original statement) As Bobad was involved at his "JEW HATER" best, I asked him what he thought of Keith's comparing virulent antisemitic poetry with a song from Dad's Army - despite numerous requests, Bobad refused to respond and continued his "JEW HATER" trolling It seems to me somewhat odd that two people with as much concern for the Jewish People as they claim should be, in Bobad's case, totally unconcerned at this fascist filth advocating the extermination of Jews (written in 1939) Keith should consider it so "harmless" that he compared it to a song for a sit-coms. I really do believe that this incident puts both Bobad's and Keith's concern for the Jewish people in context - anybody disagree? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 01 Apr 18 - 08:49 PM Good post Big Al, it's refreshing to hear from a UKer with a clarity of vision who hasn't been been seduced by the extremist knee jerk political ideology of the alt left. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 Apr 18 - 09:35 PM being endorsed by bob is the kiss of death... just joking....no i'm not... Bob - take this into the GAZA thread... please... unless you can add a sentence linking it to this thread... which would be warmly welcomed... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 Apr 18 - 09:53 PM Jim - I think bob possibly has jewish roots, me too, so i make some allowances for his extremism.. But once when i asked Keith a frank question if he was at all jewish he seemed to get very offended...??? his response was something like "How dare you ask such a question...!!!" It's like 'some' tories hate both jews and labour... but when push comes to shove, they will form unholy alliances against their perceived common enemy Corbyn...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Apr 18 - 03:22 AM "Good post Big Al" Mornin' Bobad You want another chance to comment on Keith's support of British politicians' wartime Fascism..... or not maybe ? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: David Carter (UK) Date: 02 Apr 18 - 04:06 AM However Big Al, I think one might reasonably hold the views that Islamic terrorism is not the fault of the majority of muslims, and that the excesses of the Israeli state are not the fault of the majority of jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Apr 18 - 04:26 AM So Keith. You are not going to give us your opinion on whether Labour supporters are more likely to be antisemitic either then? If you have no opinions of your own on these things, why do you keep bringing them up? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Apr 18 - 04:33 AM PFR, Keith - your quotes are flimsy and do not support your warped conclusions... They certainly do, and he proves by supporting them that they are not "warped" but real! All large organisations, including political parties, have a few bad apples. Corbyn states that Labour anti-Semitism is more than that. That is what I have been saying too, and been abused, vilified and ridiculed for it. But, I was right all along. Corbyn states that anti-Semitism has "surfaced" within the party. It is a new problem (coinciding with the rise of the Far Left). That is what I have been saying too, and been abused, vilified and ridiculed for it. But, I was right all along. Labour has previously always enjoyed wide support from the Jewish community. Corbyn states that Labour's anti-Semitism now has caused "pain and hurt" to Labour Jews and the wider Jewish community. That is what I have been saying too, and been abused, vilified and ridiculed for it. But, I was right all along. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: peteglasgow Date: 02 Apr 18 - 04:36 AM we can repeatedly ask the questions on here as progressive voices do of reactionaries in the media but you will never get a straight answer from tories/neoliberals or the very wealthy. they utilise the media to tell their side for them and as it is inevitably against progress, equality and decent humanity they will always evade, obfuscate and chuck dead cats around. of course they need our votes but these will never be won by reasoned argument just by lies and smears and war and threats of war. tories (and the like) are of no conceivable use or benefit to people other than their greedy friends- it was ever thus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: David Carter (UK) Date: 02 Apr 18 - 04:38 AM Keith states, astonishingly, that anti-semitism is a new problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Apr 18 - 04:40 AM Dave, So Keith. You are not going to give us your opinion on whether Labour supporters are more likely to be antisemitic either then? Yes. As Corbyn clearly says, Labour has problems with anti-Semitism that no other party has. More than just a few bad apples as in parties. Corbyn says that labour has caused pain and hurt to its own Jews and the wider Jewish community. No other party has. Corbyn says that the problem has arisen within Labour, not other parties. I have been saying all these things for some time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: David Carter (UK) Date: 02 Apr 18 - 04:48 AM When did Corbyn say that anti-semitism is not a problem in other parties? If he did say that, and I don't think that he did, he is very ill-informed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Apr 18 - 04:53 AM Can you provide us a link to where Corbyn says it is not a problem in other parties, Keith? And you have still not told us what your own opinion is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Apr 18 - 05:06 AM Neither Keith or Bobad are going to acknowledge their support for wartime Fascism, are they? Point made, I think "Jim - I think bob possibly has jewish roots, me too, so i make some allowances for his extremism.." Why The Jews, of all people are fully aware of the results of intolerance - enough of them described their personal wartime experiences The ones I knew (literally within two decades of the war, all adopted the attitude, "never again, not to anybody" There is nothing more appallingly sadder than to see the persecuted turn persecutor Many Jews see Israel's use of their suffering as an excuse to commit atrocities There can never be an excuse for atrocities, not can there be an excuse for supporting them You surprise me Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Apr 18 - 05:36 AM David, Keith states, astonishingly, that anti-semitism is a new problem. Astonishingly, I did not. I said it is a new problem in the Labour Party. Can you provide us a link to where Corbyn says it is not a problem in other parties, Keith? It is clear from what he said. Every organisation and party has some bad apples, but Corbyn says It is more than that in Labour. How can you possibly interpret his statements as meaning Labour is no worse than other parties? Other parties do not have these problems. Their Jews and the wider Jewish community are only complaining about Labour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Apr 18 - 06:09 AM Guardian quoting Sir David Garrard, “As one of the former leading political and financial supporters of the Labour party, of which I was a member for so many decades, I no longer feel any affinity with, or connection to, what it seems to have become,” he said. “I have watched with dismay and foreboding the manner in which the leadership has, in my view, over the last two years, conducted itself. “I consider that it has supported and endorsed the most blatant acts of antisemitism. And yet it has failed to expel many of those who have engaged in the grossest derogatory fantasies about Jewish/Zionist conspiracies – and Jewish characterisations and accusations which conjure up the very kind of antisemitic attacks that led to such unbearable consequences for innocent millions in the past. So there no longer exists a party which even pretends to maintain and promote the principles and the integrity of what always was, to me, the Labour party." These things are not being said about any other party. BBC, But the distress felt by many in the Labour movement about what's been happening is real. (Just Labour. No other party) Talk to any of the MPs who have been victims of it and that much is clear. (Just labour MPs. No other party. Jeremy Corbyn has always said that he condemns all forms of racism. But the perception that it has taken nearly three years to drag him to apologise for this specific form of prejudice that will lead tonight to the extraordinary sight of the leaders of a major religion protesting outside Parliament against the attitude of the leader of the UK's main opposition party. (Just against Labour. No other party.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Apr 18 - 06:12 AM DtG: Can you provide us a link to where Corbyn says it is not a problem in other parties, Keith? Keith: It is clear from what he said. So, the answer to my question is a big no then. You have interpreted what he said as no other parties have this problem. Let me help you out a little here. You can look it up yourself. Contrary to the narrative portrayed by the media furore surrounding Labour’s reported ‘problem’ with anti-Semitism, data curated by YouGov actually shows that since Jeremy Corbyn became leader of the Labour Party in 2015, anti-Semitic views amongst Labour party voters have actually reduced substantially. Not only does the data show a marked decrease in the number of Labour voters in 2017 agreeing with anti-Semitic statements compared to those in 2015, the statistics show that all other political parties (apart from the Lib Dems whose results are comparable to Labour’s) have a far bigger problem with their voters agreeing with anti-Semitic statements. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Apr 18 - 06:38 AM Dave, So, the answer to my question is a big no then. You have interpreted what he said as no other parties have this problem. There is more than one way to say something. He may not have used the wording you specify, but he said it. Do keep claiming that other parties are having the same problems. You make yourself ridiculous. BBC, "Concerning the anti-Semitism row he (Eddie Izzard) said Labour "must make amends and repair the damage with the Jewish community as Jeremy Corbyn has promised to do." No other leader has to repair damage with the Jewish community. Only Labour. I have provided enough evidence now. Can you provide any evidence at all that other parties have such a problem? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Apr 18 - 06:42 AM BTW Dave, the survey you quote is of voters not members. No-one has suggested that voters have become more anti-Semitic, just the membership. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Apr 18 - 06:45 AM He may not have used the wording you specify, but he said it. HE SAID NOTHING LIKE THAT. IF HE DID PROVIDE US A LINK And you say that I am making myself look ridiculous. Different morality Different language Different planet |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Apr 18 - 06:48 AM Do keep claiming that other parties are having the same problems. Missed that one. I am not claiming other parties are having the same problems. No other party is close to destroying the Tory majority so no other party is being subjected to the constant media bombardment that the Labour party is. Labours problems are far greater but they are not the problems you suggest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Apr 18 - 06:55 AM Labours problems are far greater but they are not the problems you suggest. I am not suggesting anything except that Labour's problems with anti-Semitism are indeed "far greater" so we seem to be in agreement. It is quite clear from Corbyn's statements that he agrees too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Apr 18 - 06:58 AM Is Corbyn's agreement that non existent statement that other parties do not have problem? We are still awaiting the link to that one. And which bit of 'they are not the ones suggest' are you having difficulties with? Different morality Different language Different planet |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:01 AM I have had little doubt that Keith is an anti semite since he defended wartime fascism's poetry about killing Jews - his refusal even to discuss it confirms that antisemitism Equally, Bobad is an anti semite for supporting him Ho can he possibly continue his claims of Labour Anti Semitism when he holds the views he does? Why are people taking this raving antisemite seriously and giving him "the fresh air of publicity"? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & B From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:04 AM While I have great respect and admiration for Jeremy Corbyn, and am very glad that he is leader of the Labour Party, and hope very much to see him in Number 10, I do not see him as infallible. I am surprised to see that Keith, who does not hold Jeremy in the same kind of regard, appears to assume that his statements on this issue, though not on others should be cited as cast iron evidence of the facts. ..................... Insofar as there are those who can fairly be described as having antisemitic views within the Labour Party, this is undoubtedly largely a reflection of the relentless campaigning by the Israeli government that asserts that support for the Israeli state in its actions is inseparable from being a Jewish. The implication of this would be that all Jews share responsibility for actions carrried out by Israel, and this provides a rationale for a kind of secondary antisemitism - rather than being critical of Israel because it is Jewish (which would be primary antisemitism), people are being effectively encouraged to be critical of Jews because they can be identified with Israel. And it is suggested that this applies to those who choose to boycott Israel. Most people in the Labour Party do not make this leap, and can see through the false logic involved. Inevitably some will have been taken in. It's very like the situation in a war where it was very easy for the enemy can be identified as being the same as the people of the enemy country, Argentinians or Germans rather than the Argentine or German government - as demonstrated in attacks on German shops in the First World War, or internment of Germans, even Jewish refugees, in the Second. Thus Palestinians can be liable to see Judaism as the enemy, and Israelis to see Islam as the enemy, and this can be transmitted to supporters elsewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: David Carter (UK) Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:04 AM Keith, given that the Labour party is much newer than the Tory party. Anti-semitism in Labour such as it is is newer than anti-semitism in the Tory party. You are clearly happy with anti-semitism, so long as it is a long established tradition. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:21 AM Jim, he (Keith) defended wartime fascism's poetry about killing Jews Huh? Dave, Is Corbyn's agreement that non existent statement that other parties do not have problem? His statements clearly acknowledge that fact. McGrath, , appears to assume that his statements on this issue, though not on others should be cited as cast iron evidence of the facts. Yes. If Corbyn himself acknowledges the fact that Labour has a serious problem, Dave's denials are shown to be ridiculous. David, You are clearly happy with anti-semitism, so long as it is a long established tradition. Happy? No! It is abhorrent. I just point out that until recently Labour had no such problem and received much support from the Jewish community. The loss of that support and the anger at the anti-Semitism now prevalent follows the rise of the Far Left. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:51 AM I think bob possibly has jewish roots, me too, so i make some allowances for his extremism.." Nope no Jewish roots whatsoever but I do recognize anti-Semitism when I see it and am committed to fighting it, I also understand why some would see that as extremism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Iains Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:53 AM Labour does have a problem. 17000 ex labour members cannot be wrong. Corbyn needs to man up! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Raggytash Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:59 AM "Labour does have a problem. 17000 ex labour members cannot be wrong." How on earth did you arrive at that figure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:06 AM ke Keith - it's in front of you One more time since you insist rom: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 01 Apr 18 - 08:21 PM Perhaps its time to put Keith's and Bobad's concern about Antisemitism where it belongs once and for all. Some time ago, I put up up a story I had heard as a child that, at the time the news of what was happening in the concentration camps in Germany, a member of the Tory party was overheard saying that it had all been made up by "WHINGEING YIDS" Keith - true to form, leapt to the defence of his party and claimed that I WAS A LIAR AND I HAD MADE IT UP - IT WAS ILLOGICAL He continued to do so for some time so I put up the information of a wartime organisation made up of Tory MPs, Members of the House of Lords and leading British businessmen. Keith continued to dispute my argument, so I put up some facts: The Right Club In May 1939 Archibald Ramsay, the Tory MP for Peebles and Southern Midlothian, founded a secret society called the Right Club. This was an attempt to unify all the different right-wing groups in Britain. Or in the leader's words of "co-ordinating the work of all the patriotic societies". In his autobiography, The Nameless War, Ramsay argued: "The main object of the Right Club was to oppose and expose the activities of Organized Jewry, in the light of the evidence which came into my possession in 1938. Our first objective was to clear the Conservative Party of Jewish influence, and the character of our membership and meetings were strictly in keeping with this objective." I also put up one of the many poems written by Archibald Ramsey, the founder of the organisation and published in the organisations publication, The Red Book: Archibald Ramsay (11) Anti-Semitic poem distributed by the Right Club in 1939. Land of dope and Jewry Land that once was free All the Jew boys praise thee Whilst they plunder thee Poorer still and poorer Grow thy true-born sons Faster still and faster They're sent to feed the guns. Land of Jewish finance Fooled by Jewish lies In press and books and movies While our birthright dies Longer still and longer Is the rope they get But - by the God of battles 'Twill serve to hang them yet. Keith's immediate response was: Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened? From: Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:57 PM "When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"." Who was it? What is your source? Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary! He later posted: Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened? From: Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:16 PM More dishonesty. I did not mention "Dad's Army" at all!! I merely offered an anti Fascist song to match your fascist one, making the point that finding a song is not evidence. Of course I know about a few fascists and anti semites in Britain. I have discussed them on this forum. Name a country that never had any. They were of so little influence here that we took in a hundred thousand Jewish refugees, and went to war with Hitler. Did you not know that? Remember - all this was around the Time Hitler was herding the German Jews into the Ghettos and preparing for their mass extermination. On another thread at a later date I raised the poem again (Keith continued to defend his original statement) As Bobad was involved at his "JEW HATER" best, I asked him what he thought of Keith's comparing virulent antisemitic poetry with a song from Dad's Army - despite numerous requests, Bobad refused to respond and continued his "JEW HATER" trolling It seems to me somewhat odd that two people with as much concern for the Jewish People as they claim should be, in Bobad's case, totally unconcerned at this fascist filth advocating the extermination of Jews (written in 1939) Keith should consider it so "harmless" that he compared it to a song for a sit-coms. I really do believe that this incident puts both Bobad's and Keith's concern for the Jewish people in context - anybody disagree? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:08 AM Insofar as there are those who can fairly be described as having antisemitic views within the Labour Party, this is undoubtedly largely a reflection of the relentless campaigning by the Israeli government that asserts that support for the Israeli state in its actions is inseparable from being a Jewish. This is a perfect example of an anti-Semitic statement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:35 AM I think we have once again come to the point where the arguments are both circular and futile. Whatever is said, Keith will disagree and come up with a twisted logic that he genuinely believes but the rest of us know is nonsense. For the sake of our sanity can I request that everyone stops giving him the attention he obviously craves and just stop trying to reason with the unreasonable. On this thread and, quite likely, any other. I'm out of here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:36 AM "...I do recognize anti-Semitism when I see it and am committed to fighting it." Well do let us us know when you start to fight it instead of making arguments that put all Jewish people in harm's way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:44 AM Spot on, Dave. I gave up three days ago. He's a sad and unbalanced obsessive and the good thing is that only one person here, of similar delusion, is allied with him. No-one's really listening. It took me a little while for me to realise that I'd ceased taking in his nonsense. Just let these two sad cases fester. Neither of them will ever lose Labour a single vote. There are far darker forces out there that are trying, but people in this country have little tolerance for constant and obsessive negativity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:49 AM "I'm out of here." It really is about time we all took this sensible step Arguing with two antisemites about accusations of antisemitism is about as surreal as it gets I'm out of here too (unless Keith want's me to expand on his support for wartime antisemitism - that is There are a few more examples of this at hand when he cares to deny this one Perhaps he only said it because some leading expets told him it was true Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:52 AM There is nothing in any way antisemitic in that statement, bobad. It does include an element of criticism of a foreign government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 Apr 18 - 09:06 AM On this topic it is not possible to demur from what either Keith or Bobad says without being branded either a liar, an antisemite or both. They are just rattling round in the same old way and are not influencing anyone at all to get on board with them, the opposite probably. Let 'em get on with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 02 Apr 18 - 09:33 AM There is nothing in any way antisemitic in that statement, bobad. It does include an element of criticism of a foreign government. You are scapegoating the government of Israel for the problem of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party without providing a shred of evidence for that outrageous claim. Scapegoating is not a legitimate form of criticism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 Apr 18 - 09:49 AM "so i make some allowances for his extremism" Jim - so sorry - I was trying to be sarcastic, but see it didn't come off due to poor quality writing late at night after a few bottles of Easter wine... and no longer being able to use emojis at mudcat... What I was trying to get at was that in comparison there are absolutely no allowances for Keith's bitter crusade on behalf of Jews against the Labour party... especially if he might take offence if anyone asks if he is Jewish himself... ..and interestingly, bob now states he does not have any Jewish roots... blimey... and as much as my part jewish blood qualifies me an intest in this matter, it turns out i actually support Labour and Corbyn against this extremely hostile attack...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Apr 18 - 10:27 AM PFR, Keith's bitter crusade on behalf of Jews against the Labour party.. I just repeat what Labour members and the leadership have said about it. How can you object to that? You started this remember. You found an MP defending and denying what has been going on, but he has been shown to be in a minority and wrong according to the leadership. Dave, No other party is close to destroying the Tory majority so no other party is being subjected to the constant media bombardment that the Labour party is. It is no good blaming the messengers Dave. All the accusations are coming from inside the Labour Party. All parties have a few bad apples but as Corbyn himself says, with Labour it is not just some bad apples. He states that Labour has caused pain and hurt to its own Jews and the wider Jewish community, and apologises for it. He did not need to add that no other party is in that position because everyone knows that already. Corbyn states that the problem has arisen in Labour but again no need to tell us that it was only in Labour. We know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Iains Date: 02 Apr 18 - 10:28 AM How on earth did you arrive at that figure. Raggy the times reports false news now does it? You should know by now I do not need to make things up! https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-loses-17-000-members-amid-anger-at-antisemitism-f8fjfpsx7 https://sputniknews.com/europe/201804021063137095-uk-labour-antisemitism-scandal/ http://enews.shafaqna.com/EN/AL/3709125 |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Apr 18 - 10:36 AM Jim, you post extracts from a thread from EIGHT YEARS AGO and completely unrelated to this discussion. How many hours of trawling did it take you to find that?? How empty your life must be. Happy Easter anyway. It shows how desperate you are to smear me, and how incapable you are of simply arguing against what I actually say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 Apr 18 - 10:43 AM Keith - I'm not in the mood for your nonsense today. So don't take my silence as tacit agreement to any tripe you continue to post here... I've got better things to do with my time while the mrs is off work for easter... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Apr 18 - 11:54 AM It really doesn’t matter how long ago it was posted; like your “implant” filth you have never withdrawn your claim, even though it has been raised several times since Even now you can’t bring yourself around to even acknowledging it (let alone explaining it); you have to pretend that you didn’t know what I was referring to – which is why I put it up twice. As with your “”implant” filth (which you first deny then blame others for persistently) – it is obvious that it still represents you for what you are – someone prepared to defend British Fascism rather than allow criticism of the British establishment Your use of the Jewish People here to attack the Labour Party, just as you have used raped and harassed women, makes you as low as it gets. It’s not as if you’ve mellowed in any way over the years – on the contrary, your extremism has now reached boiling pot – you have become a fanatic Hoist on your own petard, I would say "It shows how desperate you are to smear me" I haven’t “smeared” you – I repeated exactly what you said in your exact words – not even room for “misinterpretation” or “lying” As formy being incapable of answering you - you have ben answered over and over again, not just by me but by everybody here (except Bobad) The fact that you claim you haven't been id an indication that your dishonesty appears to have no depths You’ve laid your grubby cards on the table – you’re stuck with the hand you dealt yourself, so play them the best you can. I am pleased Bobad still says silent on this one – two birds with one stone, you might say. "How many hours of trawling did it take you to find that??" Less than three minutes actually Keith – learn to use your search engine "late at night after a few bottles of Easter wine.." Been there done that Can't count the number of times I've woken up in a sweat when I remember what I posted the night before Hope the Priest managed to replace his communion wine! "Keith's bitter crusade on behalf of Jews" This has nothing to do with the Jewish People - it's about winning teh next election for Boris (who will almost be Britain's next Prime Minister, if it isnt that "Moggy in the Window") Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 Apr 18 - 11:58 AM ..oh..ok.. well just one last thing to round this thread off [while I'm waiting for the oven to preheat]... "You started this remember. You found an MP defending and denying what has been going on, but he has been shown to be in a minority and wrong according to the leadership." Keith - I started this thread in full expectation that you would disregard what this man has to say, dismissing and marginalising him as not the right kind of jew for you. As you clearly state, in your warped mind he is indeed a wrong jew...!!! Your prejudice is exposed here for all to see... Tories will tolerate fighting beside right wing jews for as long as they serve their purpose... "They may be jews.. but they are our jews, and they're damn useful...!!!" Something I wouldn't be surprised to hear in tory social and golf clubs all over this nation...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Apr 18 - 12:22 PM PFR, I did not dismiss what he had to say, I put it in context. Few in his party agree with him, including the leadership. When I report what the rest say, you do not like it. Jim, what a bleak Easter you must have had searching through eight years of my posts, and only finding something with no relevance and completely innocuous. Why not just discuss the subject with me? it's about winning teh next election for Boris How? By reporting what Labour people are saying about their own party? That is all I have done here. What is wrong with that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Apr 18 - 01:02 PM "Jim, what a bleak Easter you must have had searching through eight years of my posts, and only finding something with no relevance and completely innocuous. Why not just discuss the subject with me?" You aleady said this - you really don't read what others put up, do you? Took me less that three minutes - easy when you know how "Why not just discuss the subject with me?" We've attempted to discuss with you Keith - as you've just proves, you are not interested in what others have to say so you just don't bother reading anything We might ask you why you never respond to questions but you just saved us the trouble - you don't bother reading what people put up "By reporting what Labour people are saying about their own party?" Fuck off with a capital F Keith - you're finished here - hung, drawn and quartered by your own fanaticism And still you don't acknoledge your own antisemitsm - are you surprised that it stays on your CV and will do for as long as you post? Don't forget to say your prayers now Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Raggytash Date: 02 Apr 18 - 02:36 PM Well Iains, the article (which I can only read a little of (due to the pay wall) states that "disputes over antisemitism and Russia erode Jeremy Corbyn’s support base" Now, can you tell me categorically firstly if that figure is a true figure, and if so what is your source, secondly if that figures is correct how many left because they couldn't be arsed to renew their membership, thirdly how many left because of the current situation with Russia (over which Labour, not being the sitting Government have little control) and finally how many left because of allegations of antisemitism within the Labour ranks. I shall await your considered response with interest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Iains Date: 02 Apr 18 - 04:09 PM "More than 17,000 Labour members have quit the party in the past three months as disputes over antisemitism and Russia erode Jeremy Corbyn’s support base. The Times understands that internal membership figures show the party has lost about 3 per cent of its paying supporters since the start of the year. Last week hundreds of members resigned from the party and more than 3,000 did not renew their direct debits, insiders said." I only go by what they say. The Independant: Labour’s membership reached a peak of 570,000 after the general election but now appears to be falling. According to the leaked report, no region in England reported a rise in party members since the start of 2018. London lost 3,500 members in the past three months, and the North-west reported a fall of 2,000. Meanwhile the Corbyn-supporting campaign group Momentum has claimed that it is gaining members.(they would, wouldn't they!) I have not the slightest interest in why they have quit, perhaps they feel it is a total waste of money.Why they would quit over novichok totally escapes me. Labour did not issue this pack of lies, they over exerted themslves with WMD and dragging us into the Gulf War. Anyway watching Labour attempt self destruction makes for prime time comedy as far as I am concerned. The sooner the blight of corbyn toddles off down the road the better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 Apr 18 - 04:28 PM So you haven't a clue as to why any single member left the party. Thought not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Iains Date: 02 Apr 18 - 05:02 PM Correction. I said I had not the slightest interest, Pay Attention! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: David Carter (UK) Date: 02 Apr 18 - 05:30 PM Iains, I suspect that the main reason for Labour losing members is the failure of the party to oppose brexit. When Corbyn was elected leader I thought I might join. But with the prevarication on the issue, and the sacking of Owen Smith who does show a clear vision, had I done so I would now have left. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:04 PM "More than 17,000 Labour members have quit the party in the past three months as disputes over antisemitism..." So why the Daily Mail-style juxtaposition, Iains? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:09 PM Join anyway, David, and fight the good fight from within. I hate the party's vacillations on brexit as I've often said here. But don't let Owen Smith derail you. He's a decent man who puts up a decent and non-devisive argument, but surely he's plain wrong about calling for another vote that would be just as divisive, if not more so, than the last one? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:11 PM "Divisive." Grr. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:53 PM No bobad. I am pointing out a danger of their policy of seeking to identify Jews everywhere with the actions of the state of Israel, the danger that some people might accept that what they asset is true. One problem is that even to seek to challenge that identification is liable to be branded as a kind of antisemitism, especially When those challenging are Jews, who get accused of "self-hate". |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Apr 18 - 09:09 PM "More than 17,000 Labour members have quit the party in the past three months as disputes over antisemitism and Russia erode Jeremy Corbyn’s support base." That many ot not be true (Murdoch's Times, from which you lifted your headline, has been carrying on a disgusting hate campaign since he appeared on the scene Nobody knows why people have "left" the Labour Party it certainly has nothing to do with antisemitism - the Israeli hate campaign hasn't had time to bite yet. Many thousands took out membership with the arrival of Corbyn - there was no guarantee any of them would stay anyway - that's how party membership works If party membership means anything EXPLAIN THESE FIGURES The Tories are so proud of their mmbership they don't reveal the figures - even to Parliament Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Joe Offer Date: 02 Apr 18 - 09:40 PM That eye on the pyramid has always mystified me. It's on the back of the U.S. dollar bill. I really like the Marketplace business news program on National Public Radio/American Public Radio. Here's what it has to say about the "creepy eye": |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: David Carter (UK) Date: 03 Apr 18 - 02:08 AM No Steve, leaving the EU is divisive. Anyone who will get us back in by any means has my support. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Iains Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:48 AM What a bunch of eejits! https://order-order.com/2018/03/28/corbynista-fake-news-labour-membership-surge-retweeted-thousands-times/ Corbyn, the man with the moral compass of a gyroscope! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:59 AM "What a bunch of eejits! " Why do you insist in turning these discussions into a childish slanging match when you are faced with figures you can't manage - hardly an intelligent response Guido Fawkes - are you joking? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Raggytash Date: 03 Apr 18 - 04:34 AM Interesting reference to Corbyn having the moral compass of a gyroscope seeing as a gyroscope can do the following: The orientation of the axis is not affected by tilting of the mounting, so gyroscopes can be used to provide stability or maintain a reference direction in navigation systems, automatic pilots, and stabilizers. Not something we see in the leadership of the present government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 Apr 18 - 04:40 AM Here I go again reporting what Labour people say, as quoted in the Guardian. That is all I have done in this discussion, so why all the anger and vilification? Guardian 25 minutes ago, "Labour antisemitism more widespread than thought, Momentum says Accusations should not be dismissed simply as rightwing smears, group says, urging Labour to deal with the problem" https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/02/labour-antisemitism-more-widespread-than-thought-momentum-says |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Iains Date: 03 Apr 18 - 04:49 AM But far more crucial is the fact that gyros function by spinning. A nice try to distort my point though. So Jim do you seriously dispute the existence of the tweets, simply because inquisitive guido publicises them?? You jest I trust! Or can you not accept reality? "Why do you insist in turning these discussions into a childish slanging match when you are faced with figures you can't manage - hardly an intelligent response Guido Fawkes - are you joking?" No. Are you? If you have a problem with the quoted figures I suggest you take it up with the Times(after all you quote them often enough). I find the loss of 17000 or 170000 members hilarious. I have no problem facing these figures. The more the merrier I say. Bring it on! By your squawking I assume you have a problem with the figures, not me. I think you are a little confused. Have a cup of tea and try again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 Apr 18 - 04:55 AM Same article. "Wolfson said Formby, who was appointed to succeed McNicol, would make the issue a top priority. “There is very clearly a real issue, a huge piece of work that needs to be done in the Labour party, around modern antisemitism " That is what I have been saying, and much abuse I have received for it, but I was right all along. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 18 - 04:56 AM "If you have a problem with the quoted figures" I do when they're quoted by a right wing blogger Are you delinerately trying to turn another thread into an abusive shouting match If you can't handle opposition you shouldn't be here Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Raggytash Date: 03 Apr 18 - 05:02 AM There are an almost unlimited number of reasons why memberships are not renews. For example, in the period after the Christmas festivities some people may have overspent and have a need to reassess their finances, paying for membership may be seen as something that can be given up. Boredom with UK politics in general could be another reason. Boredom with the Brexit issue could be another reason. We could go on and list a massive list of possibilities. It is not possible, unless each individual is asked, to determine the cause of the fall, so to surmise it is because of antisemitism or the Russian situation is pure speculation, and no doubt given your sources malicious speculation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Iains Date: 03 Apr 18 - 05:07 AM Following on from earlier discussion about the Israeli government trying to cover their tracks by claims of antisemitism, then I find their racist behaviour in the link below almost unbelievable https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/survive-israel-stokes-expulsion-fears-171228125756664.html and for those than cannot believe al jazeera https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/israel-s-offer-to-african-asylum-seekers-leave-or-be-jailed-1.3409216 As most will come to Europe I woner what the EU will have to say about this ethnic cleansing? if anything? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 Apr 18 - 05:17 AM Stop Jeremy Corbyn’s trial by media over antisemitism |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: The Sandman Date: 03 Apr 18 - 05:18 AM i have not renewd my membership ,but i intend to rejoin fairly soon |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Iains Date: 03 Apr 18 - 05:28 AM "If you have a problem with the quoted figures" I do when they're quoted by a right wing blogger" and the Times and The Independant and Sputnik news and The Express and The Daily Mail You have a problem with all of them as well?????????????? Do you also argue with the speaking clock? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Apr 18 - 06:33 AM "and the Times and The Independant and Sputnik news and The Express and The Daily Mail" Well, I'd be inclined to see most of those as pretty untrustworthy sources, even The Times these days - and even The Independant backed Cameron in the 2015 election. ......... I note that now Corbyn is being attacked for attending a meeting of a Jewish group at Passover, JEWDAS, on the ground that these are the wrong kind of Jews it appears, since they criticise the Israel government. The Jewish comedian David Baddiel summed up this rather neatly in his blog "They are just Jews who disagree with other Jews. which means: Jews." ........ I am afraid that rather a lot of people here, on all sides, are prone to treating this discussion, and others as "a childish slanging match". Falling into that trap amounts to shooting yourself in the foot in a discussion. And it extremely easy to avoid doing it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 Apr 18 - 06:44 AM I think anti-Semitism is much less or a problem on the British left than the British right Avi Shlaim, Historian, Emeritus Professor of International Relations, Oxford University |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 18 - 06:45 AM "Well, I'd be inclined to see most of those as pretty untrustworthy sources" You have had a response to this Iaians There doesn't seen a lot of point in repeating it, or discussing this with people who are not interested in debating beyond soundbite headlines "i have not renewd my membership ,but i intend to rejoin fairly soon" That is a point made by Corbyn Dick - many members have yet to renew their membership, which is usual of all political Parties who make a practice of "re-registration" in my experience Interesting development in your linked deportation cases Thanks to large demonstrations throughout Israel opposing the deportations and despite the fact that over half the population of Israel regard the Afrigan refugees as "cancer", the Government has been forced it's plans to deport all the refugees and is now intending to ethnically cleanse only half of them -- the rest will be removed from Tel Aviv and sent elsewhere "The power of the feet", as we used to say on Aldermaston Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 Apr 18 - 07:03 AM I wonder how many of this purported 17,000 have not renewed membership simply because they've dropped dead from old age waiting to get back in government...???? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 Apr 18 - 07:08 AM btw... My mum [86] is not a member [probably hasn't been since the Labour League of Youth in the late 1940s/early 1950s] But she is still determined to vote Labour any time we can get her to the polling station... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 Apr 18 - 07:12 AM btw..btw... and she is half Jewish... for what it matters...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:23 AM I note that now Corbyn is being attacked for attending a meeting of a Jewish group at Passover, JEWDAS, on the ground that these are the wrong kind of Jews it appears, since they criticise the Israel government. JEWDAS is a radical fringe group that calls for the destruction of Israel and refers to Jewish critics of Corbyn as non Jews. This is just another example of how disconnected Corbyn is from the Jewish community and explains his inability to acknowledge and deal with anti-Semitism in his party. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:23 AM The mask seems to have slipped completely in this long-running farce Corbyn has been accused of antisemitism for attending a rally of a diaspora group of left-wing London Jews Monty Python must be writing this script Whatever you thing of this group's politics is immaterial and this proves beyond a shred of doubt that none of this is about the Jewish People or antisemitism, but about Left and Right Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:35 AM "JEWDAS is a radical fringe group that calls for the destruction of Israel and refers to Jewish critics of Corbyn as non Jews" That is a lie Bobad - it calls for Judaism to be taken out of the hands of the extreme right wing It runs tours to Israel and encourages peole to see what is happening for themselves You really have taken over Paul Joseph Goebbel's job as minister of propaganda for Israel, haven't you? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:42 AM So now we have British left and right wing Jews accusing each other of being anti-semitic... set against each other fighting over the tories number one target Corbyn... Does this score even more points for right wing pro-tory media divide and rule tactics...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:13 AM Punky, there is a vast difference between "left wing" and extremist. Consider this tweet from Jewdas: To be fair Israel is itself a steaming pile of sewage that needs to be properly disposed of. Or how about this one: Give our comrades at Antifa Berlin a like! You'll hasten the coming of the Communist Messiah. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Raggytash Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:19 AM You know Bobad that open forums can be used by anyone. Thus I could go onto the site and tweet any racist, antisemitic, rapid nonsense that I wanted and then someone like you can pick up on it. You may have even tweeted both those posts yourself in order to bring the site into disrepute. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Iains Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:22 AM Strange. Many here accepted the long running farce on novichok as an absolute truth, yet suggest labour members have left in droves and they promptly lose the plot. Identical sources reporting the alleged facts. Nothing like a little consistency boyos! Baaaaaaah, Baaaaaaaah! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:29 AM Bob - I lack sufficient knowledge / info to comment on JEWDAS... But on slight acquaintance from BBC news reports, they are described as a youth group. What you quote sounds like the usual over hyped up twaddle traditional to young student politics... Trying not to be too condescending.. middle class students getting into hot-house political movements do tend to get a bit overexcited in their pronouncements... but remain essentially well meaning and harmless... ..and long may may youth continue along this path of disvoery..... I can think back 40 odd years ago with some embarrasment.. I'm sure you probably could as well.. Sadly some older folks never grew up properly and still sound like adolescent pillocks when it comes to political debate... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:36 AM "Nothing like a little consistency boyos!" About as consistent as Keith's putting up Momentum's claim of a antisemitism problem (not disputed) yet totally choosing to ignore their statement that there is more antisemitism in the Tory Party than there is in Labour How about some responses to what has been put up rather that throwing stones from a distance Iains? "To be fair Israel is itself a steaming pile of sewage that needs to be properly disposed of." According to Guido Fawkes, who chooses not to source his comments - like you "Give our comrades at Antifa Berlin a like! You'll hasten the coming of the Communist Messiah." That's what I said - nothing to do with the Jewish people - a battle between Left and right Also unsourced, by the way WERE THESE ZIONISTS ANTI-SEMITES TOO !!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:54 AM Punky, mainstream left wing Jews are in a large part what make up the Jewish members of the labour party. They support Labour but oppose anti-Semitism. They are who JEWDAS calls non Jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:17 AM Criticising Israel is not the same as being anti-Jewish Contains the following - However, supporters of Israel have sought to widen the definition of anti-Semitism to include those who call themselves anti-Zionist and most recently, those who support the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement. In this, they use an obsolete formulation from the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) which includes as a possible sign of anti-Semitism: “denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, eg, by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavour”. The EUMC has since abandoned this wording as it was being used to launch attacks on critics of Israel, rather than to tackle real anti-Semitism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Apr 18 - 11:38 AM "You may have even tweeted both those posts yourself in order to bring the site into disrepute" Well, he has posted them here now. A google search could easily throw them up, and that could be used to demonstrate something about the Mudcat? Everyone is against real antisemitism except real antisemites. Extending the definition to include critics of Israel, or those who would like to see Israel as a country that equally welcomed Palestinians as well as Jews, is calculated dishonesty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 03 Apr 18 - 11:45 AM those who would like to see Israel as a country that equally welcomed Palestinians as well as Jews, All of Israel's citizens regardless of ethnicity or religion enjoy equal rights and are represented in all facets of society. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 18 - 12:52 PM "All of Israel's citizens regardless of ethnicity or religion enjoy equal rights and are represented in all facets of society.|" Utter nonsense How many times have you been linked to the Inequality report ? How about the Bedouin residents who were moved onto a toxic rubbish dump ort the farmers sprayed by toxic chemicals ISRAELI EQUALITY MORE MORE STILL Want any more - plenty to pick from |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 03 Apr 18 - 01:31 PM 77% of Israeli Arabs would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. Coexistence in Israel |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 03 Apr 18 - 01:50 PM Labour MPs re Corbyn attending JEWDAS seder John Woodcock @JWoodcockMP This is deliberately baiting the mainstream Jewish community days after they pleaded with him to tackle antisemitism. And he must know that meeting them now will give his members the message that the group’s extreme views are ok. Irresponsible and dangerous angela smith @angelasmithmp Corbyn’s attendance at the Jewdas seber reads as a blatant dismissal of the case made for tackling anti-Semitism in Labour. #EnoughisEnough |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Apr 18 - 02:01 PM I would imagine that 77% of Palestinians exiled from the territory of Israel would also wish to be able to return to their homeland. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 18 - 02:02 PM You've had the facts cose-up on Film Bobad - all you offer if propaganda John Woodcock Wiki Entry (been here before) Chair of Labour Friends of Israel.[9] He was also a member of the Public Bill Committee for the Defence Reform Act 2014[10] Until 2015, Woodcock was the chair of Progress, a ginger group within the Labour Party, promoting Blairite policies within the party.[11] In March 2015, Woodcock was reported to the UK Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards to determine whether his office had breached parliamentary rules. The investigation concerned his office's use of public funds for postage-paid envelopes and whether this contravened a rule which prohibits public funds being used to support the return of a person to public office. The postage-paid envelopes had been used in relation to a local Save Our Hospital campaign, an issue the local Conservative candidate claimed was prominent on Woodcock's 2015 General Election campaign leaflets.[12] During the Commission's investigation, Woodcock admitted that he should not have used public funds for such a purpose and the Commissioner upheld the complaint, finding that Woodcock contravened parliamentary rules. Woodcock returned the £1881.22, which his office had spent on the envelopes, to the House of Commons.[13] In December 2013, Woodcock publicly announced he was suffering from depression and is now having treatment for the condition.[14] In May 2015 Woodcock was appointed Shadow Minister for Young People, but resigned in September 2015 following the election of Jeremy Corbyn as party leader.[4][15] Since Jeremy Corbyn was elected leader of the Labour Party, Woodcock has been a strong critic, joking about what he saw as a desperate situation at the 2015 Labour Party conference.[16] In March 2016, Woodcock penned an article critical of Corbyn, which resulted in backlash against him.[17][18][19] Shortly after the announcement of the 2017 general election, Woodcock said he "will not countenance" voting to place Corbyn into Downing Street because of the Labour leader's opposition to the "Trident renewal programme" and would seek his constituency party's re-nomination.[20][21]" AS I said - political differences not antisemitism Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 03 Apr 18 - 02:09 PM You've had the facts cose-up on Film Bobad Lol.....if I post a video saying that Jews kill christian babies and use their blood to bake matzoh will you believe that also? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Apr 18 - 02:19 PM Jewdas ARE part of the mainstream Jewish community. You are allowed to disagree with the Board Of Deputies and still be a mainstream Jew as far as I know. In this country a broad spectrum of viewpoints is welcomed and we have free speech, and as long as you don't break the law that should come without castigation or penalty. The concerted effort to demonise Jeremy Corbyn via an expanded and vexatious "definition" of antisemitism, which is actually no such thing, is an attack on that principle and will come back to bite the messengers. Jewdas are Jews who don't care much for the way the Israeli regime treats Palestinians. You can still be a Jew if you think that. There is far less mileage in this matter in this country than the anti-Corbyn, anti-Palestinian camp seems to think. Enjoy your besieging mentality. It might never go away but it will fizzle, and further attempts in the future, in the next election campaign for example, will lack all credibility and will rebound, just as all the negativity levelled at Corbyn last time round rebounded. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:02 PM "if I post a video saying that Jews kill christian babies" If you do that I would believe you to be antisemitism - but I already believe that Do you believe those films to be faked? Angela Smith is a Labour "Friend of Israel, by the way So many of those who have accused Corbyn's Labour Party of antisemitism are directly involved with Israel Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:05 PM They are just playing the selective quote farming game, Steve. As I explained before, an equal number of opposing views can be gleaned in the same way. Bit of a stupid game really but some still like to play it. The tables have turned: Two MPs who slammed Jeremy Corbyn for breaking bread with 'non-mainstream' Jewish group Jewdas are being called anti-Semitic on Twitter for their apparent distinction between of "good Jews" and "bad Jews." Labour MPs John Woodcock and Angela Smith took to Twitter on Tuesday to condemn their party leader for spending Passover with Jewdas in his home constituency of Islington. Woodcock said Corbyn's attendance at the celebration was "deliberately baiting the mainstream Jewish community days after they pleaded with him to tackle anti-Semitism" and described it as "irresponsible and dangerous." The duo, who were jumping on the bandwagon after protests against Corbyn last week that were organized by the Board of Deputies of British Jews and the Jewish Leadership Council, have been met with ire on some sections of Twitter. Users raised one simple question for the two MPs: How can the people Corbyn spent Passover with be anti-Semitic if they are also Jewish? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:25 PM mainstream left wing Jews are in a large part what make up the Jewish members of the labour party. They support Labour but oppose anti-Semitism. They are who JEWDAS calls non Jews. I believe you have been misinformed, bobad. Where members of JEWDAS have complained out non Jews telling them that they are not proper Jews they have been referring to Gentiles who have had the nerve to say that. In the words of David Baddiel "They are just Jews who disagree with other Jews. Which means: Jews." |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:54 PM From JEWDAS website: A non-Jew like Wes Streeting, Luke Akehurst or Stephen Pollard will appear on TV and claim to be the sole representative of the Jewish community Don't know about the other two but Stephen Pollard is definitely a Jew. So it would appear that it's not me who has been misinformed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 18 - 04:17 PM SELF HATING JEW Jim Carrokk |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Apr 18 - 04:19 PM Sounds as if whoever wrote that may have been misinformed. However that is a different thing from deliberately claiming that people you know to be Jewish are non-Jews, which was the sense I understood to be implied. In fact that kind of thing would be very close to what is being said about JEWDAS, as not being proper Jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 Apr 18 - 04:21 PM Ian Paisley Jnr. was also at the rally last week. As good a Jew as his father I think... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Apr 18 - 06:23 PM What has happened over the last week is anything but an attempt to address antisemitism. It is the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party. It is a malicious ploy to remove the leader of the Opposition and put a stop to the possibility of a socialist government. The Board of Deputies, the (disgraced for corruption) Jewish Leadership Council and the (unelected, undemocratic) Jewish Labour Movement are playing a dangerous game with people’s lives. That comes from an article on the Jewdas.org website called Enough is Enough. It's the article from which that, apparently mistaken, assertion about "non Jews" that's been quoted above was taken. However it's an article that's worth reading, and demonstrates clearly that the Jewdas collective is very much part of the Jewish communiy and has a strong history of fighting antisemitism while at the same time being outspoken critic of both Israel and of the official secular Jewish establishment in this country. Here is the article, Enough is Enough. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: robomatic Date: 03 Apr 18 - 07:47 PM And The New York Times. Haven't heard of "Jewdas" before. Intriguing name, invoking the name of the New Testament betrayer, whose role I could never really understand. (Jesus is doing all this stuff around Jerusalem, Bethlehem, chasing money-changers from the Temple, making sermons on mounts, and the Romans still need to find an informer, like they don't already know who Jesus is?) Jewdas appears to be a fringe group, but there's nothing new in that. Jews love fringes. And occasionally wear them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:44 PM Jewdas is a "fringe group" only in the eyes of the right-wing factions who align themselves with the intemperate likes of the Board Of Deputies. Jewdas are Jews who don't necessarily follow the "expected" line of those arrogant sods who regard themselves as the owners of the moral high ground of Judaism, the people who would stem free speech by making any criticism of the Israeli regime "antisemitic" and who regard all Palestinians as trouble-makers with an unjustified sense of entitlement. Educate yourself, robomatic. Whimsy has no place in this particular discussion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: robomatic Date: 03 Apr 18 - 11:02 PM 'Fringe' could also mean there ain't that many but they've got a good presence on the web. Sort of like what we in America call wingnuts for no good reason that I'm aware. I don't think they've got much room on the moral high ground (of Judaism you say? How is that distinct from regular moral high ground?) since it's obviously been found, licensed, and staked out by yourself. I think it takes more to occupy such territory than to simply claim it. Participate in the argument about things external to yourself. Now back a few posts when I made a mess of a link to the New York Times on Jeremy Corbin, I hoped someone would actually read it, as it contained more references than merely the diversionary and crass mural. For instance, there's this: In 2009, Corbyn had described the Lebanese terrorist group, along with the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas, as “friends.” Seven years later he explained he was merely using “inclusive language,” which “with hindsight I would rather not have used.” What could be more similar than Donald Trump equivalencing the Nazis in Charlottesville as "good people on both sides?" Corbyn also met in 2009 with Dyab Abou Jahjah, a Belgian-Lebanese activist whose Arab European League had previously published a cartoon denying the Holocaust. Corbyn initially denied ever meeting the activist, then was “reminded” by a photograph of the two of them together. “We had, I think two times, lunch or breakfast together,” Abou Jahjah noted, “so I cannot say that Mr. Corbyn is a personal friend, but he is absolutely a political friend.” Abou Jahjah was later banned from entering Britain. There is more, these are additional elements to the mural which bear thinking about. New York Times' Bret Stephens ends with this passage: Does all of this make Corbyn an anti-Semite? Not necessarily. He vehemently denies it. You can never know with certainty what’s in a person’s mind or heart unless he tells it to you straight. Motives can be complex. Self-delusion plays its role. This thought was expressed earlier in this forum, and I share it. I think that applies to those in this forum as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Apr 18 - 04:19 AM "What could be more similar than Donald Trump equivalencing the Nazis in Charlottesville as A totally false comparison Whatever their behavior - their objectives are totally different One is establishing the supreiority of of group of people above the other - the other is fighting for the rights of people to occupy land they have lived on for a thousand years Some people brand any action the disagree with as "terrorism" whenever it suits them I have no particular love for Hezbollah or Hamas - or any religion based force, but without their efforts the Palestinians would have been wiped out long ago You people are the first to defend decisions like Brexit because "it is the people's choice" and it would be "undemocratic to oppose it", yet you, as a foreigner, are happy to steamroll over "the people's choice" elsewhere If the International bodies are going to do nothing while Israel continues to do what it does, then the Palestinians are entitled to defend themselves in any way they can - they would be insane not to You criticise these groups because, you say, tehy are terrorists, yet yopu are happy to defend the massacre of unarmed protesters and you describe those who oppose those massacres as "antisemitic" You appear to have a bit of an agenda here Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Apr 18 - 04:29 AM Well done for exposing his true colours, Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Apr 18 - 04:49 AM If it is antisemitic to criticise Israel because it it a Jewish state - why is it not antisemitic to critisise "Jewdas" - are the people in that organisation any less Jews than those running Israel? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Apr 18 - 05:11 AM Jim, About as consistent as Keith's putting up Momentum's claim of a antisemitism problem (not disputed) yet totally choosing to ignore their statement that there is more antisemitism in the Tory Party than there is in Labour I have not seen such a statement. Here is where my quotes came from. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/02/labour-antisemitism-more-widespread-than-thought-momentum-says Now show us your quote please. "the people's choice" (Hamas) elsewhere When did they last stand for election? Who would be the opposition since they were all murdered or fled? Do not compare Gaza to a democracy. No-one can criticise Hamas there and live. Why are we discussing Israel and Gaza here anyway? You are utterly and irrationally obsessed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Apr 18 - 05:18 AM Go away Keith - you have proved yourself an antisemitic trolling pest Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: peteglasgow Date: 04 Apr 18 - 06:41 AM imagine if a very prominent public figure had been 'good friends' with a murderous fascist dictator in chile and welcomed him to her home on several occasions. imagine if the same person had had a notorious sexual predator as a good friend and they had spent several new year parties enjoying each others' company. imagine if our government had welcomed a middle eastern tyrant to no 10 knowing he was involved in masss executions, barbaric punishment of his citizens, indiscrimanetely bombing an innocent neighbour and funding terrorist organisations that we are currently at war with. imagine that a prominent public figure had attended a party dressed as a nazi stormtrooper, flagrantly insulting the sensibilities of our jewish community. imagine if someone with a lifetime spent opposing war and bigotry of all types had failed to properly condemn a painting that some see as in questionable taste or gone to a party with some lefty jews. shocking innit? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Apr 18 - 06:48 AM Wonderful Pete - sums up the double-standards of all this perfectly Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:48 AM This is from the JEWDAS Passover seder prayer: And fuck the queen and ESPECIALLY FUCK PRINCE PHILIP. Burn down parliament. Full communism. Amen. These are the people Corbyn chose to break Matzo with on Passover. Still think he's fit to be the leader of UK Labour? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Raggytash Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:55 AM Bobads "prayer" comes straight from the pages of Guido Fawkes so it must be "true". |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:57 AM Jim, choosing to ignore their (momentum) statement that there is more antisemitism in the Tory Party than there is in Labour Show us the statement please. Here are my Guardian quotes again, "Wolfson said Formby, who was appointed to succeed McNicol, would make the issue a top priority. “There is very clearly a real issue, a huge piece of work that needs to be done in the Labour party, around modern antisemitism " "Labour antisemitism more widespread than thought, Momentum says Accusations should not be dismissed simply as rightwing smears, group says, urging Labour to deal with the problem" |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Raggytash Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:58 AM Even Guido Fawkes states it allegedly came from last year, so not the supper that Corbyn was invited to. Isn't it strange how some people on here omit the fine detail. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:03 AM Bobads "prayer" comes straight from the pages of Guido Fawkes so it must be "true". Actually it comes from Irish Jewish Voice so it must be a lie, right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:06 AM Even Guido Fawkes states it allegedly came from last year, so not the supper that Corbyn was invited to. There was no claim made that it was from this year's seder. It is illustrative of what this group of fanatics is about. Nice try at deflection though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:07 AM "These are the people Corbyn chose to break Matzo with on Passover. "#Whatever they are Bobad, they ain't antisemites and they aren't appeasers to mass murder, as you are Your unlinked quote is traceable only to extremist pro-Israeli blog from "Elders of Zion" - there is no evidence of it having been made elsewhere Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Raggytash Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:11 AM Jim, I found it on Guido Fawkes page ....... quelle surprise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Raggytash Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:14 AM Another viewpoint from the Jewish people in Ireland. Jewish Voice for Peace I have no doubt that these people will be condemned by some. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Raggytash Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:16 AM "There was no claim made that it was from this year's seder. It is illustrative of what this group of fanatics is about. Nice try at deflection though." No Bobad no claim, but it was clearly your intention to mislead by omission. Unfortunately for you, you were caught out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:22 AM You do know that Jewish Voice for Peace is a radical fringe group that does not represent anyone but obsessive haters of Israel. Just thought I'd let you know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:23 AM Wrong sort of Jew then? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:25 AM While I was searching for the source I acme across this remarkable essay by Jewish writer, Lillian Rosengarten I don't think I have ever read a summing up ot he situation so succinctly There is a terrific discussion of the article on the site As bobad seems happy to drag up his postings from the bottom of the sewer I may as well select what Jewish people are saying anout what is happening Jim Carroll I dedicate this essay to Hajo Meyer (1924-2014) anti-Zionist, political activist, Auschwitz survivor and hero in the struggle for Palestinian freedom. His words continue to inform me and his actions comfort my sorrow. “An anti-Semite used to be a person who disliked Jews. I am not anti-Jew. I am anti-Zionist” “Zionism has nothing to do with Judaism. “ Zionism has always equated any criticism with anti-Semitism, delegitimization or worse. It serves as propaganda to maintain the illusion of Jews as “victims.” Ultra Nationalists who believe in their moral superiority create political terror in order to silence and deny. Who could imagine in 1945 following the defeat of Nazi Germany, there would be within a few short years a bizarre escalation, a toxic spread of anti-Semitism inflamed in part by a country with two faces. One face claims to be “the only Democracy in the Middle East” while the other face engages in an agenda embracing a genocidal occupation that spans across three generations of Palestinian children born in captivity. This is the face of Zionism with its dream of a Jewish State for Jews only, “Palestinians not allowed.” There is an alter ego where truth breaks through all forms of denial. A painful truth that many are still unable to accept as a viable reality. It is the agenda of Israeli Zionism that inflicts the horrors of disenfranchisement and genocide onto an entire population of Palestinians, unwanted, hated and considered “inferior.” It is impossible for this German Jew to avoid a comparison between Israeli Zionists’ unwillingness to embrace the humanity of Palestinians as human beings like themselves with aspects of the Nazi quest for a racially-pure Germany. Who would have imagined following the end of World War 2, how once again emotional manipulation akin to domestic terrorism, could successfully create a new culture of fear and hysteria strategically targeting Jews? What is tapped is deeply imbedded hysteria that lives dormant within Jewish consciousness. It is here where fears of annihilation and victimization wait once again to be ignited. Zionist intention is to gather Jews from around the world to support and live in the “Jewish State,” using this powerful message of indoctrination. We have heard it spoken: a Jewish state is the only place on earth where Jews can be safe and no longer victims. I cannot be this Jew. As a refugee, I identify with the homeless displaced Palestinians, refugees forced to flee from their land and homes to be occupied, destroyed and surrounded by prisons, walls, checkpoints armed soldiers and illegal settlements. Because Zionism in 1948 was founded on a racist ideology of the superiority of “chosen people,” I must raise some obvious questions. Do Jews who have themselves been victimized, have the moral right to occupy and disenfranchise another people? Why have they learned nothing? More pressing for the moment, how could it happen that anti-Semitism is used to defend the Zionist agenda? There exists deep psychological implications to be explored, studied, written about and discussed openly in order to bring light to an unbearable moral abyss. We who are Anti-Zionist and not anti-Jewish (and/or) Jewish ourselves must resist dangerous attempts to discredit opposition by promoting a “false” anti-Semitism while attempting to blur the reality of unending racist violence against Palestine and Palestinians. This form of domestic terrorism uses not only Holocaust guilt but lies in order to justify and/or maintain an illegal, brutal occupation. I believe to argue whether anti-Semitism exists or does not exists is a spurious issue lest we fall into a trap and lose our focus. The rise of anti-Semitism is real. There is a part that disturbs me deeply. That is its use to obscure the truth about a violent unhinged regime that has created the Palestinian Nakba. That is not to pretend there is no true anti-Semitism. It is spreading along with Islamophobia. Perhaps Zionism itself is anti-Semitic for it discriminates against Semites and includes Jews themselves. Zionism is not a religion but a political movement. Working for justice and the end of the occupation is not anti-Semitic. I want to discuss an incident that recently occurred at Bard College, in order to exemplify my previous discussion. “Israel supporter refuses to share Bard stage with Dima Khalidi and cites stereotypes about Jews smelling bad,” published here on Oct 24, 2016. Hannah Arendt, for whom the Bard Center for Intellectual Inquiry is named, stated that free speech is at the heart of political discourse. She added that only in the freedom of our speaking on the topic for discussion, does the world emerge in its objectivity and visibility from all sides. Was the organizer of “Real Talk,” Roger Berkowitz not aware he was suppressing free speech and an intellectual exchange when he failed to stand up against the outlandish demand by Kenneth Marcus to not appear together with Dima Khalidi? Why? Someone who supports BDS must be an anti-Semite? Marcus has shown us once again the face of hatred recycled over and over again by propaganda and the racist agenda of Zionism. What would it have taken for Professor Berkowitz to break the silence, to say “no, this is not acceptable?” What stopped him, fear? The response of wealthy Jewish donors? I am offended at the disgraceful behavior of Kenneth Marcus. This is the antithesis of everything Arendt believed in. It is ironic and bizarre that Marcus founded the Louis Brandeis Center for Human Rights under Law several years ago to combat anti-Semitism. He states he is an advocate for free speech. Disingenuous and dangerous are his assertions that undermine the powerful non-violent BDS movement with cries of anti-Semitism to squelch and destroy. Meant to inflame he compares BDS to the (“pre extermination” Marcus’ words) Nazi boycotts of Jewish stores in the 1930’s, a truly ludicrous comparison used to inflame fear. Kenneth Marcus shows the true face and ugliness of Zionism and in this case, his utter contempt and distortion of Dima Khalidi, a Palestinian-American woman, lawyer and activist for Palestinian human rights. Marcus succeeded to stop all discussion as cries of anti- Semitism were once more recklessly thrown about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Raggytash Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:26 AM There's a well known saying Bobad that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. You would do well to consider that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:34 AM As I've pointed out before, on the eve of World War Two Mahatma Gandhi wrote a letter to Adolf Hitler urging him to step back from the brink of war. He started it by addressing him as "Dear Friend.". He wasn't indicating support of Nazism. Nor was he being ironic. He was being courteous, because he viewed courtesy as important in all kinds of situations, including confrontations with the worst people. Corbyn has in many ways the same attitude. His use of the term friend in these cases was an expression of this. He sees it as part of the process of communicating with others. It's a formally, analogous to the House of Commonns practice of referring to "the honourable member". I To attack people for preserving courtesy in dialogue is in my view wrong minded. Sometimes there are those who think that there is something insincere and inauthentic about that kind of thing. We should speak outunreservedly and shout our adversaries down, and show off our ability to throw insults in our arguments. In the words of Miss Jean Brodie, for those who like it, that is the kind of thing they like. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Raggytash Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:40 AM Quite correct McGrath, but I do hope you don't expect certain people on this site to acknowledge the veracity of what you type. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:46 AM One really has to question the judgement of the leader of a political party steeped in anti-Semitism who attempts a display of Jewish cred by attending a ritual gathering put on by a fringe group of fanatics who make a mockery of that very religion. Only the latest misstep of many that he has been apologizing for lately. Still think he's fit to be the leader of UK Labour? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:55 AM Jim, choosing to ignore their (momentum) statement that there is more antisemitism in the Tory Party than there is in Labour If you were not just blatantly lying again, produce this "statement" that I "ignore." You made an accusation against me. Was it a lie? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:57 AM a political party steeped in anti-Semitism Which party is that then? Still think he's fit to be the leader of UK Labour? Yes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 04 Apr 18 - 08:57 AM Wrong sort of Jew then? Just a radical fringe group of extremists but if that's who someone is trying to use to legitimize their position on Israel it should be made known from whence that opinion emanates. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 04 Apr 18 - 09:00 AM Which party is that then? Check out the news, it's all out there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Apr 18 - 09:02 AM Dave, a political party steeped in anti-Semitism Which party is that then? I suspect he meant the only party whose problems with anti-Semitism have dominated the news for weeks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: peteglasgow Date: 04 Apr 18 - 09:25 AM imagine the powers that be (and have been for centuries) had their wealth and power challenged from time to time - how might (did) they respond? might they use a massive campaign of smears, lies and misinformation to discredit the opponents of their privileges? might they buy off, disappear, terrify and murder people who stood in their way? (david kelly, rachel corrie and blair peach come to mind) might they play the age old game of divide and rule? or another war? it's straightforward enough - some people get very angry about dodgy pictures and lively meetings where (allegedly) some people say controversial things. for other people, breaking international law and murdering and impoverishing a neighbouring country is also a serious matter. we are all different - though maybe not that much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Apr 18 - 10:28 AM As none of our friends who choose tyo blame the Jewish People for Israel's atrocities seem inclined to respond to what the writer had to say, perhaps it's time to look at what others thought of what she wrote Jim Carroll Elizabeth Block October 31, 2016, 2:48 pm When Hajo Meier was on his speaking tour (his presentation was titled “Never Again for Anyone”), no mainstream Jewish venue in Toronto would give him a platform. He spoke at the Winchevsky Centre (secular, left-wing Jews) and Quaker House. And some Toronto Jews called him an anti-Semite. Rashers2 October 31, 2016, 10:15 pm Thank you, Lillian Rosengarten. “Zionism is not a religion but a political movement,” is the central but inexpedient truth, which Israel flagrantly ignores when its politicians seek to portray themselves as acting for and representing all Jews, everywhere. It is no surprise that the self-serving effect of this portrayal is exactly to increase hostility towards all Jews, everywhere – even though many Diaspora Jews will not set foot in Israel, let alone make Aliyah. It is therefore understandable although not excusable that Jewish communities in Europe are targeted by those who hate Israel’s actions and policies; and who, ironically, have themselves come to believe Israel’s great lie. If a big enough lie is repeated often enough, it becomes accepted as the truth – I wonder who said that….. It will be a shameful victory for Hasbara and the Western Israel apologists if governments such as my own enshrine this wholly false conflation between a religion and a political ideology in laws conceived to protect religious and ethnic minorities from persecution and incitements to violence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: bobad Date: 04 Apr 18 - 10:59 AM Here's an example of a party leader making an appropriate and gracious apology and showing leadership by owning a mistake and moving toward a resolution. These are traits which appear to be seriously lacking in the makeup of the leader of UK Labour, a man who presents as a sour and bitter man. I have a deep respect for the Jewish community. The Passover graphic the Manitoba NDP posted over the weekend was a mistake. We took it down as soon as we could. I’m sorry to anyone who was distracted by this during your time with family and thanks to everyone who reached out with your thoughtful teachings. I will work to increase our cultural awareness. I wish everyone the best for the remaining days of Passover! The apology was issued by the leader of a provincial New Democratic Party which in Canada is similar in many respects to UK Labour. An inappropriate photo accompanying a Passover greeting was posted on the Party's web page. The photo wasn't anti-Semitic or anything like that it was merely culturally inappropriate to the holiday and reflected someone not taking the trouble to acquaint them self with the symbology associated with the commemoration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Apr 18 - 11:04 AM Anyone who views the mild-mannered and quietly-spoken Jeremy Corbyn as "sour and bitter" really isn't paying attention. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 Apr 18 - 12:16 PM please... could someone, anyone, remind me if the British Labour party has any other business, purpose, function, priority, agenda than focusing on Jews and antisemitism....?????????? Only there are elections coming up soonish, and it might be helpful for floating voters to know if Labour are interested in any other political causes and issues.....???????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Apr 18 - 12:56 PM Now, there you have it, PFR. There are elections coming up. The smears will get worse as it gets closer. Someone is running scared. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Apr 18 - 01:24 PM Dave, The smears all come from inside Labour, not from rival parties. No-one else is to blame. Jim, You accused me of "choosing to ignore" a "statement" from Momentum. You lied. There was no such statement. If it existed you would have posted it in your trade mark big, red capitals. You reveal yourself yet again to be nothing but a filthy liar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 Apr 18 - 01:38 PM Dave - I do recall the pro Tory media'a early 1980s diversionary divisive strategy deployed to vilify Michael Foot, [His equivalent of 'anti semitism'..] was nuclear disarmament and the bogeymen 'Loony Left'... Seen it all before...!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Apr 18 - 01:43 PM "You lied" Keith Do youi know the story of 'The Boy Who Cried Wolf@ You have called so many peopple on this forum "liars" so many times that if you said tomorrow is Thursday nobody would believe you You really have shat in your own nest with your distortion and insulting behaviour Don't expect a response to your hate-mail from me but please, please keep it up - please Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Apr 18 - 03:29 PM Jim, just ignore him. You know he just craves attention. Indeed, PFR. They have used the same tactics on both. Running scared is the phrase that I have used before and I stick by it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Apr 18 - 03:38 PM It would be nice if they keep it up though. It seems the more shit they throw, the more popular he gets :-) Support for Corbyn grows |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Iains Date: 04 Apr 18 - 03:59 PM I hate taking Corbyn's side but in the case of the Russian poisoning farce,he seems to be the only one with a grain of sense and needs to grab full control of his own party. As RT states"Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, who condemned the attack but called for a thorough investigation, was savaged not just by the Tories, but also his own Parliamentary party, simply for taking a cautious line in Parliament on March 14. Thirty-six Labour MPs signed an Early Day Motion – sponsored by arch Corbyn-critic John Woodcock – which declared "This House UNEQUIVOCALLY accepts the Russian state's culpability for the poisoning of Yulia and Sergei Skripal." The EDM supported the expulsion of Russian diplomats and the calling of a special meeting of the UN Security Council to "discuss Russia's use of chemical weapons on UK soil." |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 Apr 18 - 04:00 PM Dave - basically the same tune sung with slightly different words from the right wing establishment dirty tricks songbook... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Apr 18 - 05:01 PM Even down to the donkey jacket! :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Apr 18 - 05:07 PM Just watching the news about BoJo and the FO's latest load of bollocks. Guess what. It seems to be JC's fault. Mismanagement. What mismanagement? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Apr 18 - 06:35 PM The truth is there is a significant minority inside the Labour Party especially perhaps in the House of Commons, who would prefer a Conservative government to one in which Jeremy Corbyn, or anyone sharing his political views, was Prime Minister. John Woodcock MP, who has been cited in this thread, in said precisely that in the course of the last General Election, when he declared that he "would not countenance" Jeremy Corbyn becoming Prime Minister. Predictably he is working to prevent that happening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:14 PM "Jim, just ignore him. You know he just craves attention." Yup - done that - hope everybody does - he's an infestation Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:15 PM That's right. I'm sure that the disaffected ex-Blairites want to see Corbyn trounced, then five more Tory years, then the Blairites back in power. A total pipe-dream. My strong feeling is that Labour has changed forever, and, looking back at some of the more shameful aspects of Blairism - lack of financial regulation, burgeoning gap between rich and poor, the Iraq legacy, etc. - that's all for the better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Apr 18 - 03:27 AM I hope you are right, Steve. I also hope that people have seen the pitfalls of the populism which saw the rise of Nigel the Toad, Donald Twitler and Brexit. Politics has turned into a farce and unless it is put back on track by Corbyn or someone like him we will all suffer the consequences. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Apr 18 - 03:56 AM "put back on track by Corbyn or someone like him" 'Put not your trust in Princes' - as the man said Corbyn seems a cut above the rest and if I lived in Britain I would probably vote for him, but he's a politician - politicians have a nasty habit of letting you down Blair was a rising star of decent politics at one time Vote for them, admire them - but don't take your eyes off any of them for one minute Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Apr 18 - 04:00 AM Aye, sadly you are right Jim but democracy seems to be the best of bad bunch at the moment. If it were up to me I would disqualify from standing for parliament anyone who thought they could run peoples lives on the grounds of insanity. Never mind. It will all be better when I am the benign dictator :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Apr 18 - 04:11 AM Back to the plot... PERSONAL STATEMENT BY GLYN SECKER AS Secretary of JVL I am outraged by the Board of Deputies of British Jews and the Jewish Leadership Council’s false allegations that the Labour Party is endemically anti-Semitic, and their personal attack on Jeremy Corbyn. This manoeuvre is a thinly veiled attempt to sabotage Labour's performance in the upcoming local elections. It's an onslaught, triggered by Jewish communal organisations, and has been eagerly seized on by the national media, and the Tory Party plus its DUP supporters. The demand by the BOD and JLC for the summary expulsion of two members of the party, as a condition for even meeting with Jeremy Corbyn, is outrageous. They also make a completely inconsistent demand for the immediate implementation of the disciplinary recommendations of the Chakrabarti Report into antisemitism and other forms of racism. Those recommendations insist on due process and natural justice, which the BoD/JLC demand that the Labour Party totally ignore for two named individuals. One of the targeted members is Jackie Walker, who is a member of Jewish Voice for Labour. I have no doubts whatsoever that there are no grounds for her current suspension (for alleged antisemitism), let alone for her expulsion. The allegations against her, which have no substance, must be lifted. Failing that, they must be subjected to due process, in order to determine whether or not there is even a prima facie case. The attempted political lynching of a Black woman, who is also Jewish fills me with disgust, and aligns these two formerly respected organisations with the disreputable methods of Senator Joseph McCarthy. As a Jew I completely disassociate myself from their unprincipled behavior. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Apr 18 - 05:14 AM Sorry for three in a row but this one tickled me :-) Corbyn Dioxide :D tG |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Apr 18 - 06:11 AM Jim, if you are not a filthy liar, produce the "statement" you claim I "choose to ignore." Or Dave, perhaps you know what statement he meant. PFR, basically the same tune sung with slightly different words from the right wing establishment dirty tricks songbook... All the accusations come from inside Labour, not from any "right wing establishment." |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Apr 18 - 06:16 AM McGrath, The truth is there is a significant minority inside the Labour Party especially perhaps in the House of Commons, who would prefer a Conservative government to one in which Jeremy Corbyn, or anyone sharing his political views, was Prime Minister. I agree Kevin. There is a civil war within the party. No-one outside is to blame for it. The issue is Corbyn's leadership. Those who can not accept it should go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Apr 18 - 06:26 AM Tories now seen as more divided than Labour Britain now has a four-party system |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Raggytash Date: 05 Apr 18 - 06:47 AM Am I alone is hearing someone call Me! Me! Me! I want some attention!! My advice would be to ignore the troll. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Apr 18 - 06:56 AM "filthy liar" There u you go again Keith - the reason you are regarded as a mindess troll I'm sick to the back teeth of feeding your trollism by providing links I already have and having you ignore them again To repeat the exercise is only to feed your mindless trollism Grow up or go away - why on earth should anybody need to lie to you when you do more damage to yourself than anybody else possibly could There's nothing more ridiculous than a self-exposed antisemite who defends the murder of Jews (at a time when they really were being murdered and persecuted - later by the millions), accusing anybody of antisemitism Jim Carrol |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Apr 18 - 06:57 AM Call me a liar for that bit and I'll repost your actually doing that - please don't disappoint me and deprive me of the pleasure of doing so Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Apr 18 - 07:00 AM Jim, that is not ignoring him! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Apr 18 - 07:26 AM Jim, if you are not a filthy liar, produce the "statement" you claim I "choose to ignore." Feel free to help him Dave and Rag. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Apr 18 - 07:39 AM Jim, ignore means that. Just ignore it. I predict that his claims will get more and more outrageous in an effort to goad someone into an argument but if everyone just ignores it, it will eventually stop. May take a few months but it will happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Apr 18 - 08:18 AM Today's news, Jewish Momentum organiser resigns over ‘deep-seated prejudices’ in local branch. Joshua Garfield stepped down as a Youth Officer of the Jeremy Corbyn campaign group’s Newham steering branch, saying he’s “experienced more anti-Semitism in the past week than I ever have in my eight years of Labour Party membership”. Posting a statement on social media, he said online discussions between members of the group about Labour’s anti-Semitism problem featured “deep-seated prejudices.. aired confidently and which went unchallenged.” He said these discussions “leave me unable to serve on that body in good conscience”, adding that he has “felt sometimes unsafe, and most certainly untrusted as a Jewish member of the Steering Group, hence I have decided to step down.” Garfiled insists his politics “remain unchanged” and he fully supports “a Labour government led by Jeremy Corbyn”, but that he “cannot work alongside individuals who seek to silence the legitimate concerns of Jewish Labour members, or who remain silent in the face of blatant racism.” His letter of resignation adds: “Denying that antisemitism exists within the Labour Party, or in its affiliated organisations, factions, and supporters is misguided, ignorant and offensive. “While some may seek to weaponise the issue, something cannot be weaponised if it doesn’t exist. Our Jewish comrades need solidarity, not faction based infighting.” |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Apr 18 - 08:19 AM "Jim, that is not ignoring him!" Sorry - lack of concentration - heavy night! Won't happen again Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Apr 18 - 08:22 AM Dave, I predict that his claims will get more and more outrageous I have not made an outrageous claim. If I have, quote it. Jim outrageously claimed that I chose to ignore a statement from Momentum that they never made! Jim made it all up! Outrageous liar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Apr 18 - 08:47 AM Mr Garfield, who is also a Labour council candidate, said he could confirm from “first hand experience” that accusations of anti-Semitism in the Labour party “both individual and institutionalised” were “not without foundation”. It can not be claimed that he is "right wing establishment" or even right wing Labour or an opponent of Corbyn. You can not dismiss all these accusations as political. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:48 AM a filthy liar! I say Carruthers!. That's rather strong! try 'an unmitigated bounder'! personally, I am a mitigated bounder. I have the letters after my name to prove it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Raggytash Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:52 AM What are they then Al, perchance ............. Al Whittle MB? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:52 AM Jim - Infesting ants require sprays and powder.. Annoying flying bugs require electrified tennis racket shaped devices.. Weeds require weedkilllers and or elbow grease and a fork /spade.. Obsessive nuisance forum posters require being totally starved of attention... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:54 AM It really is time we stopped allowing Keith to divert this into a right-wing political crusade(as he did wuith the rape of young girls to make it an Islamophobic rant and the rape of harassment of women, and discussed the subject seriously Keith has no more interest in the Jewish People than do his two mates - he has proved himself an antisemite by supporting wartime antisemitism and his two mates supported him with their refusal to condemn his antisemitism. His and their silence is an indication that that antisemitism remains with this bunch - Theirr stance is a political one, so if we are to proceed with this, we need to do so with that in mind Of course there is antisemitism in the Labour party, as their is every other party - Israel has made sure of that by using the Jewish People as human shileds to protect themselves from the consequences of War Crimes If Israel links their actions with the Interests of the Jewish People then people are going to take that up - in essence, Netanyahu has painted a target on every Jew on the planet It would be ridiculous to claim that that hasn't effected some Labour Party members Labour has taken these accusations seriously and looked into them - the Tories haven't even begun to respond seriously to accusations of racism against their members This campaign against Labour has been concocted by the anti-BDS crowd, assisted by right-wing opponents of Corbyn, to destabilise the opposition to the ethnic cleansing that is taking place at present The timeline of these accusations (are largely historically-based incidents that have long been ignored for years and have now been dredged up now Labour looks like becoming a principles party) coincide with Corbyn's statement of support for the Palesinian people. It doesn't mean that the accusations are groundless and don't need investigation, but they need to be handled in the light of why they were raised in the first place - and why Keith is behaving as he is now. A REMINDER of WHAT THIS is REALLY ABOUT by somebody who really should know by his personal experiences - from the now-closed thread Don't forget - it was the promotion of the events that led to this man's experiences that Keith described as being 'as unimportant as the theme song from 'Dad's Army' Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:55 AM Al, I say Carruthers!. That's rather strong! I do feel quite strongly about Jim telling lies about me. He does it a lot. Dave, Not just your friend. Today is a bad news day for Labour. "Ruth Smeeth, the Labour MP for Stoke-on-Trent North, said: "Dan (Simpson) has been an excellent member of our team, and I'm incredibly concerned by the optics of the first act by the new general secretary being to put on gardening leave the most senior Jewish member of staff employed by the party (Sec. Labour PLP)." |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Apr 18 - 10:08 AM PFR, Obsessive nuisance forum posters require being totally starved of attention... You wrote my name into the title presumably to encourage me to give my views on your OP interview. I gave my views and now you do not like it. Is it because I have shown the interviewee to be wrong and because your case that Labour does not have a serious problem did not stand up to scrutiny? I think so. There is nothing "obsessive" in my contributions, which are mostly just quotes of Labour people supporting my case and demolishing yours. I am only a "nuisance" because none of you can answer, except Jim who makes shit up with all of you supporting him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Apr 18 - 10:17 AM Spot on PFR. Trouble is, everyone needs to do it to make it work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 Apr 18 - 10:21 AM Keith - [temporarily breaking silence] I was the only one who tried to still be friendly with you and give you another chance.. Over the duration of this thread, that has proven to be futile. You do not want to be an active member of this community, just an abrasion to it...[Return to silent mode]... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Apr 18 - 10:26 AM I was the only one who tried to still be friendly with you Not quite true, PFR. I tried, only to have it used against others. I have tried logic, reason, ridicule and just plain abuse. Non of them work. Isolation is the only thing I can think of now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Apr 18 - 10:31 AM BTW - I have give up singing 'Adieu sweet lovely Nancy' in case it is misinterpreted. :D tG |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Apr 18 - 10:51 AM Fake social media accounts used to smear Labour supporters & undermine Corbyn |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 Apr 18 - 10:53 AM Dave - ok, fair enough, I'd clung onto hope until the bitter end, despite being advised by others I was wasting my time and patience. So you as well - It's a shame our hands of friendship were not reciprocated, but ignored and now lost... I can actually be friends with folks I disagree with on quite fundamental beliefs, but I don't have enough patience for folks with damaged personalities and dysfunctional behaviour... That's why I opted out of training to be a social worker back in my 20s..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Raggytash Date: 05 Apr 18 - 11:25 AM Not at all surprised by the content of your post at 10.51 Dave, I suggested to another poster earlier that this could easily be the case. Good to have it clearly demonstrated though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 Apr 18 - 11:40 AM Raggy - in this internet age, that is such an obvious dirty trick to be reasonably suspicious of.. But in this current topsy turvy climate.. just pointing out a conspiracy that is so obviously conspiring right under your nose can get a chap/lady vilified, demonised, suspended, banished to the darkest regions of political oblivion... .. just saying... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Apr 18 - 01:00 PM I was the only one who tried to still be friendly with you and give you another chance.. ...but annoyingly I kept challenging your beliefs and prejudices, and you had no reply. Finally I proved you wrong, so you all have no choice but to withdraw. I am very happy with that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 Apr 18 - 01:11 PM "02 Apr 18 - 10:43 AM Keith - I'm not in the mood for your nonsense today. So don't take my silence as tacit agreement to any tripe you continue to post here..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Apr 18 - 02:33 PM I didn't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Apr 18 - 03:36 PM Told you, Jim ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Apr 18 - 07:08 PM "Told you, Jim ;-)" Even hsi two mates ahve abandoned him - not because they'r disgusted by his antisemitism , but because he's blown their cover Not totally useless after all Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Apr 18 - 08:03 PM Jim, we're ignoring his posts, some of us. Mostly the people he tries to engage with his bollix. Doesn't mean we can't discuss points germane to the thread that he mentions. But we seriously need to talk past him, not at him. It's hard but it's possible. Let's all go for it, Jim, with fortitude. We all know it makes sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: robomatic Date: 06 Apr 18 - 12:17 AM This thread was named for Keith and now those who sought to engage with him and Bob are seeking to continue the discussion withOUT them. Is it okay to say "Jesus Wept!" in this case? I really think there's a literary right to use the term here, 'kay? If you can make common cause with dead Jews and accuse the rest of the world of being antisemites, I think I can do the same with another dead Jew. Turnabout and all that. 'Sonly fair! |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Apr 18 - 01:38 AM It was in an effort to be friendly, robomatic. I suggest you read the opening posters recent comments before making such judgements. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:04 AM "Is it okay to say "Jesus Wept!" Why not? You and yours feel free to abuse the beliefs of others - why should you not expect the same ? That particular phrase is not particularly abusive or insulting anyway and - if the character in question ever lived anyway' most of us don't particularly think of him in terms of his Jewishness - rather that the philosophy that he inspired, so using the name cannot be regarded as a slight on any articular people or religion. As for Keith - he is a "Christian" (note the inverted commas, who has made a point of using his religion against that of others - as an attack on the Muslim religion for instance, claiming that his particular brand is being killed off by them - religious warfare that has no place here or anywhere as far as I am concerned Keith, Bobad and Bearded Bruce are there examples of everything that is dangerously intolerant intolerant in today's world. I am an atheist from an Irish Catholic background and I have to say that, after a lifetime surrounded by religion, friends and family particularly, I have never encountered anybody as inhumanly hate-filled as eith and his cronies - Keith is as unchristian towards the weak and persecuted as they come. I have no idea where he fits into the Christianity I was taught while growing up He brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "suffer the little children" when he defends their persecutors and slaughterers, as he does regularly on this forum. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:08 AM Robo - it's like you've come in and watched a random episode of a long running TV drama series and presumed to know what lead up to it in the previous 6 seasons... ...we're now into an on and off relationship's final straw in the story arc.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:20 AM Your case was that the problem was not real, and PFR thought his video proved it. That is why he put my name in the title. I easily proved you all wrong just by quoting senior Labour people. Jim even tried inventing a "Statement" from Momentum that supported your case, but I exposed the lie. That was all you had, so you resorted again to making it personal against me. You are just bad losers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:40 AM I posted about Jewish Momentum organiser Joshua Garfield. He was interviewed on R4 Today programme this morning with Charlotte Nichols, a Jewish member of the Young Labour group. Asked if they thought Labour anti-Semitism was "a real problem" and if it required "expulsions" they both said "absolutely yes." Yet more proof that I was right all along and you were all wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:52 AM Honestly people, trust me on this. Most of us know the truth. The site management know the truth. It really is not worth rising to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:57 AM ...or should I say sinking to? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Apr 18 - 04:30 AM Don't feed the troll lads - what he has might be catching Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Apr 18 - 04:51 AM 'Today is a bad news day for Labour.' it may have escaped your attention Keith, but every day is a bad news day for Labour. Mainly due to the news media being owned by bloated capitalists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:20 AM 500! Well said, Big Al. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Apr 18 - 06:31 AM These attacks on Labour have intensified since Israel's latest murderous atrocity - coincidence of course!!! It would be stupid to deny that antisemitsm isn't on the rise again and that some of that hasn't rubbed off on the Labour Party - the use of the Jewish peope as human shields in defence of ongoing ethnic cleansing and constant atrocities has made that inevitable Labour needs to come to terms with that and make sure they don't pick up the Israeli line that is the Jewish people who are responsible for massacres such as that which happened last week A little difficult when criticism of the shooting down of unarmed protesters in now "antisemitic" according to the Israeli regime and its apologists Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Apr 18 - 07:25 AM True Keith...also The FRiend, the magazine of the Quakers is not unsympathetic to the Labour party. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Apr 18 - 07:26 AM Jim, These attacks on Labour have intensified since Israel's latest murderous atrocity - coincidence of course!!! You mean, "These attacks on Labour, by Labour." Do you really believe that Israel has infiltrated the party to that extent? That the mass of complaints are from Israeli agents posing as members? This is conspiracy nut land. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Apr 18 - 10:58 AM The number of fake Facebook and Twitter accounts is yet to be fully realised but even on what we know now there is ample evidence of tampering with political processes around the globe. I have no doubt that those who wish to see Putin cast as the bad guy will accept that Russia are at least partially responsible for the brexit and Trump votes. Yet if anyone suggests that right wing groups are doing the same those same people will scream about conspiracy theories. Amazing. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Apr 18 - 11:33 AM Israel' Facebook interference with British politics is more or less the same as Russia's with the American election and Brexit It's set to get worse now that predator hackers have discovered that there is a market for hacked personal data Ireland is beginning to experience some of this with signs of it being used in the forthcoming abortion referendum They'll be using children next https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/dublin-toy-store-apologises-after-anti-abortion-material-discovered-in-catalogue-1.3450767 Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Apr 18 - 11:57 AM Jim, These attacks on Labour have intensified since Israel's latest murderous atrocity - coincidence of course!!! If it is not a coincidence, what is it Jim? Where did all those accusations made by Labour people really come from? |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Apr 18 - 12:22 PM Jim, stay with the program :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 Apr 18 - 02:09 PM At this point, it would be useful for some to remind themselves of this traditional highly effective dirty tricks concept... Agent provocateur [no- not the lingerie...] Now, in the internet social media age, these covert methods have evolved in all sorts of devious ways..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: robomatic Date: 06 Apr 18 - 07:30 PM Interesting take again in the New York Times, 'high-level' perspective and not an easy read for either side of the controversy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Apr 18 - 07:48 PM "I am sure I am not the only person who would like to know what Jim meant." Not as a reply to Keith but to listen to the roar of protest from Bobad, Bearded Bruce and Roboomatic as they leap to their feet in horror at Keith's antisemitism Don't all leap up altogether lads Keith - true to form, leapt to the defence of his party and claimed that I WAS A LIAR AND I HAD MADE IT UP - IT WAS ILLOGICAL He continued to do so for some time so I put up the information of a wartime organisation made up of Tory MPs, Members of the House of Lords and leading British businessmen. Keith continued to dispute my argument, so I put up some facts: The Right Club In May 1939 Archibald Ramsay, the Tory MP for Peebles and Southern Midlothian, founded a secret society called the Right Club. This was an attempt to unify all the different right-wing groups in Britain. Or in the leader's words of "co-ordinating the work of all the patriotic societies". In his autobiography, The Nameless War, Ramsay argued: "The main object of the Right Club was to oppose and expose the activities of Organized Jewry, in the light of the evidence which came into my possession in 1938. Our first objective was to clear the Conservative Party of Jewish influence, and the character of our membership and meetings were strictly in keeping with this objective." I also put up one of the many poems written by Archibald Ramsey, the founder of the organisation and published in the organisations publication, The Red Book: (11) Anti-Semitic poem distributed by the Right Club in 1939. Land of dope and Jewry Land that once was free All the Jew boys praise thee Whilst they plunder thee Poorer still and poorer Grow thy true-born sons Faster still and faster They're sent to feed the guns. Land of Jewish finance Fooled by Jewish lies In press and books and movies While our birthright dies Longer still and longer Is the rope they get But - by the God of battles 'Twill serve to hang them yet. Keith's immediate response was: Keith's respnse Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened? From: Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:57 PM "When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"." Who was it? What is your source? Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary! He later posted: Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened? From: Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:16 PM More dishonesty. I did not mention "Dad's Army" at all!! I merely offered an anti Fascist song to match your fascist one, making the point that finding a song is not evidence. Of course I know about a few fascists and anti semites in Britain. I have discussed them on this forum. Name a country that never had any. They were of so little influence here that we took in a hundred thousand Jewish refugees, and went to war with Hitler. Did you not know that? Remember - all this was around the Time Hitler was herding the German Jews into the Ghettos and preparing for their mass extermination. On another thread at a later date I raised the poem again (Keith continued to defend his original statement) As Bobad was involved at his "JEW HATER" best, I asked him what he thought of Keith's comparing virulent antisemitic poetry with a song from Dad's Army - despite numerous requests, Bobad refused to respond and continued his "JEW HATER" trolling It seems to me somewhat odd that two people with as much concern for the Jewish People as they claim should be, in Bobad's case, totally unconcerned at this fascist filth advocating the extermination of Jews (written in 1939) Keith should consider it so "harmless" that he compared it to a song for a sit-coms. I really do believe that this incident puts both Bobad's and Keith's concern for the Jewish people in context - anybody disagree? Any offers - Bobad - Bearded Bruce You've both seen this before - now's your chance I wonder what your response would have been if Corbyn had said what Keith did !! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: robomatic Date: 06 Apr 18 - 08:07 PM Jim Carroll: Honestly, I HAVE noticed your posts of anti-semitic lyrics in this and other threads, but perhaps you have not made it as clear as you could what is YOUR part of the post and what is not. When I make the same kind of posts, I try hopefully hard enough to italicize or change indentation or typeface or bold to make it obvious whose words I am quoting for agreement or not and what are my words and what are another thread contributors. Your posts need more curating! A few months ago you made a post quoting an anti-semitic song and I at first believed that was in aid of your point i.e. you enjoyed that song. Otherwise why quote the whole bloody thing? I am now getting the sense that you are trying to go back in time and other threads and dredge up others' arguments to make your detractors look bad. But you are not making that point clear enough for me. I am under the impression that you quote the anti-S songs because you like to and are just using a sneaky way of getting the words in. Please if you can have someone look over your stuff before you press the submit button to make sure you are giving the correct impression. It would be very unfortunate if you are putting out all those words but not making it clear which are yours, which are others, and when which portion was sent. I don't think I have you mis-pegged, but I'd really like you to represent yourself not only honestly (which I think you are trying to do) but competently. For both our sakes. For all our sakes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Apr 18 - 08:55 PM I put extremely clearly what I thought of Keith's attitude then and now Now you are pleading ignorance You disgust me as much as he does The whole discussion was there worrd for word - not an inch of space for misunderstanding NOW YOU HAVE HAD IT EXPLAINED TO YOU YOU STILL REFUSE TO CONDEMN IT AND ATTEMPT TO PUT IT UP AS SOMETHING I "LIKE". You make me sick but at least you will never be able to accuse me of being ab antisemite again It also makes clear who the antisemitism in this discussion are Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Apr 18 - 09:04 PM Misunderstood - are you serious You rally have made my nigth Jim carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 Apr 18 - 09:23 PM For sake of brevity and clarity of communication, I think everyone should endeavour to keep each post as concisely to the point as possible... No matter how well meant, some folks do tend to get a bit self indulgent with the length and crammed content of posts they expect the rest of us to try to read and keep up with..... My eyes can only focus on a backlit screen for so long before straining... |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: robomatic Date: 07 Apr 18 - 07:00 PM JC: Wrong Answer. Clean the spittle off your screen and re-read both my posts AND your posts and see which YOU can understand. By the way: This thread is not supposed to be about you. Try to write intelligently about something outside yourself. And maybe leave me out of it and I'll come back to this thread and write about something outside of you (Like my earlier posts). |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Apr 18 - 01:56 AM "Keith understood it - nobody else had a problem with it It is a blow by blow account of Keith defending wartime British antisemitsim - clearly showing who said what - post by post - each statement is clearly named - blow by blow As far as I am concerned, your refusal to acknowledge that fact by dishonestly claiming not to understand it puts this whole argument - and you - clearly where it should be. This "antisemitism" has nothing to do with attacks on the Jewish people - is has everything to do with defending the behavior of an extremist right-wing Israeli administration slaughtering anybody who gets in their extremist right-wing way - yet more slaughtering yesterday and set to run and run. Your refusal to condemn Keith's antisemitism - even now it has been laid on the line for you - makes you no different than him I put Keith's posting up to see the reaaction of people like you (I have no doubt that Keith's attitude to the fate of the Jewish People has not changed one iota since he first put it up) - your continuing refusal to condemn a defence of wartime antisemitism, certainly served my purpose in drawing people like you who use The Jewish People as an excuse for mass murder out of their holes Many, many thanks Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Apr 18 - 03:58 AM "By the way: This thread is not supposed to be about you." This thread has never been about me - perhaps you wou;pd like to point out where I have tried to make it so? No? Thought not - rhetorical question! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Apr 18 - 04:34 AM Jim, "When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids". That WAS a lie Jim. You were never able to substantiate that claim because you HAD made it up. You lied then as you lie now about Momentum having made a statement about Tory anti-Semitism. You made that up too. You are a liar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Raggytash Date: 08 Apr 18 - 04:38 AM Hoops Jim, Hoops. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Apr 18 - 04:42 AM There will be another demonstration against Labour anti-Semitism today, this time outside Labour HQ. Will Labour MPs attend when some experienced abuse or even had to leave constituency meetings afer attending the Parliament Square demo? This is what Labour supporting Daily Mirror says about it, "Hundreds of protesters are set to demonstrate outside Labour headquarters on Sunday against what they say is the party’s failure to tackle anti-Semitism. Activists will call on Labour’s hierarchy to “hold Jeremy Corbyn to account” amid renewed claims he is not doing enough to root out anti-Jewish hate in its ranks. It comes after a Labour MP who attended an earlier protest against anti-Semitism “stormed out” of a meeting of her local party after being heckled by members. The Campaign Against Anti-Semitism, which is organising tomorrow’s rally, is angry its complaint about Mr Corbyn to Labour’s new general secretary, Jennie Formby, was dismissed." |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Apr 18 - 04:57 AM I know that Raggy which is why I am not responding but it's still good to see Keith confirming he is still supporting wartime antisemitism even while pretending he is concerned with so-callled Corbyn's Not the brightest button on the SS uniform, is he? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Apr 18 - 05:38 AM I think this tells us a lot about the motives of the Campaign Against Antisemitism. It seems to me that they do more harm than good and there is currently a petition underway to get their charitable status revoked. |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Apr 18 - 05:46 AM Very telling final statement Since August 2014, the majority of CAA’s activity has been a litany of lies and distortions directed against critics of Israel misrepresented as haters of Jews. As Greenstein says in the supporting text for the petition: “A cursory search of its [CAA’s] archives reveals almost nothing on fascist groups, who are antisemitic holocaust deniers. There are however 21 entries for Jewish Labour MP Gerald Kaufman, who supported the Palestinians, 70 entries for Jeremy Corbyn and 29 for Shami Chakrabarti – all of them hostile.” |
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Subject: RE: BS: News interview for Keith & Bob... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Apr 18 - 08:05 AM Jim, Keith confirming he is still supporting wartime anti-Semitism I did not, and would never support or even defend anti-Semitism as you, Dave and Steve did with the mural. You claimed, "When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids" was a total lie. No minister said any such thing or called Jews Yids. You lied and I was right to call you on it. Just as I was right to call you a liar when you claimed Momentum had made a statement about anti-Semitism. They never have. You are a liar and you have been doing it here for years. |