BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018

Subject: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 07:08 PM

I'm starting this because although only recently started, these demonstrations and their causes have infiltrated a creditable thread about UK politics.

The New York Times article has more than one source. The headline, for instance, gives a number of dead that within the article states that has not been confirmed by Israeli sources.

Way down in the article there is mention made of preparations by Hamas involving destruction and violence. And that the Israelis have been preparing for violence.

Overall I'm prepared to say that any violence is wrong. There goes my virtuosity signal. I am sanguine that no rockets are going from Gaza into Israeli civilian areas (so far as I know).

I hope folks find this thread a place to make reasoned observations. I understand that there are disagreements ahead, but I for one will make a genuine attempt to be clear but not disagreeable.

The facts of the violence and deaths at hand I'd rather not bicker over. We are in the day of the drone. I expect that all sides will have drone shots and samples and interpretations. All sides are well aware of the potential for making themselves look good at the expense of their opponents.

Let's see how much light we can shed among the heat.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 08:20 PM

What appears to be happening is that a massive protest intended by the organisers to be non-violent is meeting a violent response by the authorities. That is a very familiar situation in numerous struggles struggles. We’ve seen it in British India, in South Africa, in the American South, in Norhern Ireland, in struggles all over the world.

Non-violence threatens authority in a serious way. That is especially true in the case of authorities that claim to represent democratic structures and principles. It threatened the British and American stare especially,and it threatens the Israeli authorities for the same reason. That means it is far more "dangerous" than violence. Violence can always be countered by greater violence.

And use of violence against non-violence carries the realistic hope of generating counter violence, and breaking down any sustainedcommitment to non-violent struggle.And of course in any struggle there will be those only too ready to cooperate in switching to a violent struggle. I can remember seeing that happen in a heartbreaking way in Northern Ireland back in 1969 to 1970.

The hope that this time that can be avoided is a slim one, but it still exists. It has to be based on a realisation that violence just plays into the hands of the authorities, gives them what they want, and that it is a kind of betrayal of the struggle. Those who respond violently will in truth be collaborating with the IDF.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 08:30 PM

"Way down in the article there is mention made of preparations by Hamas involving destruction and violence. And that the Israelis have been preparing for violence"

Sorry, but this simply won't do. You are pretending to try to get this off to an even-handed start but already you're making a false equivalence. The Israelis have a massive US-backed military, one of the biggest in the world. Hamas have nothing of the kind. This is as one-sided as a match between Real Madrid and Hartlepool second reserves. You mention violence for both. You mention destruction only by Hamas. You are as see-through as can be and you are not talking to fools here. We know exactly where you're coming from. Now would you like to start again?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 08:53 PM

I think a very good principle in any discussion, online or face-to-face, is to put any previous disagreements out of our minds, and try to start with a clean sheet.

That's not easy to do. Some people appear to think that it involves insincerity, being inauthentic. "Let it all hang out, be open about it, cut out the shillysallying, and get stuck in." But let's try it for once, couldn’t we. If we have the cheek to hope that the people facing the IDF can hold to non-violent resistance, in face of guns and mortars and gas, why not adopt a non-violent tactic here?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 09:18 PM

Good job robo, a thread guaranteed to bring the night crawlers to the surface.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 09:25 PM

I think bob prefers a world of eternal antagonism and conflict
rather than mediation, peace making, and rebuilding...???

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 09:53 PM

And the first commentator to launch into mudslinging arrives right on cue.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 09:57 PM

bob - well tell me I am wrong... maybe you are a misunderstood disillusioned old hippy...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 10:10 PM

Steve, I felt the NY Times article itself to be a bit disingenuous, and I have not made a claim of 'even-handedness'. I have put forth an article and my reaction as OP. You can read the article or not and post your own interpretation of what are the 'facts'. You seem to want to comment on me, and I don't need that kind of flattery, speaking personally. Your words are really up to you and will reflect on you, as with me and everyone else who has and will post, MODERATORS WILLING.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 03:32 AM

nineteen dead and over a thousand wounded to date - the first "terrorist" to be killed (as I am sure he will be described) was a local farmer cutting beet (I'm sure one of his beet was packed with explosives, which was why tank-fire was required!!)
THe first round in the Sharpeville Gold Cup race
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:20 AM

Hamas, once again, playing the media and the haters like a fiddle.........it's just so easy.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 08:41 AM

Yeah - it was their marksmen did the killing - the Israelis tried to stop it - just like Sabra/Shatila
Give us a break and stop blaming the victims
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:05 AM

"Way down in the article there is mention made of preparations by Hamas involving destruction and violence.} And that the Israelis have been preparing for violence."

That was you, not the article. Two sins by Hamas, one sin from Israel. Not a great way to kick off a fair discussion, is it.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:06 AM

Meant to highlight the word destruction there but point made.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:19 AM

If Israel has the right to exist, it must be allowed to prevent hostile incursion across its borders.

They tried tear gas but it did not stop them.
What did the "demonstrators" think would happen if they attacked the fence?

Why demonstrate by the border at all?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:24 AM

"Why demonstrate by the border at all?"
Maybe so thosde who have last their land to make toom for settlers might get their land back
There you go - another massacre for you to defend - and your not an extremist - are you ???
God preserve us from moderates like you!!
Jim Carroll!!

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:38 AM

There are no settlers in Gaza Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:43 AM

"What did the "demonstrators" think would happen if they attacked the fence?"

Might this have anything to do with protesting against a fence that wasn't on their land before...???

It's not easy keeping track of new borders and fences in this sorry war of attrition and land grabs...

It's not like they can avoid protesting by instead appealing to the local planning department,
like we can if a bullying neighbour encroaches on our back garden
with home extensions and fences...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:53 AM

"There are no settlers in Gaza Jim."
There are many millions of Palestinians who have been refused the right to return home -the largest group of exiled refugees on the planet - that is what the protest is about
I would have thought that a good Christian first question here would have been "why have unarmed protesters been massacred?" - especially at Easter
THere are Christians and Christians, it seems
Don't ever tell us you are a moderate again Keith - you are an appeaser of mass murder and you always have been
Don't forget your prayers before you go to bed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:56 AM

Might this have anything to do with protesting against a fence that wasn't on their land before...???

The fence is within Israel's original border.

It's not easy keeping track of new borders and fences in this sorry war of attrition and land grabs...

New border? New fence?
They have been in place since Israel was created.
Is that your problem that you do not think Israel should exist.

That is an extraordinarily extreme view even for you people.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 10:26 AM

"That is an extraordinarily extreme view even for you people."

Keith - let's face it, you will never be respected and taken seriously
while you continue to make such idiotic exaggerated pronouncements...

Of course you completely ignored the vitally important word "might" with which I started my post.

A post that questions rather than expresses dogmatic statements...



"Is that your problem that you do not think Israel should exist."

In your desperate need to imply the worst in people who query your warped ideas,
have you forgotten I am part Jewish...
Though with empathy for, and a need to understand both sides of this conflict.

Btw.. when you use "you people" as a favoured dismissive insult,
the Jewish part of me could take offence
if I was over-sensitive and looking for that kind of thing out of context to take exception to...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 10:30 AM

Whenever the expression "You people" is used it tends to be a warning sign that the person using it is not reaching out a hand of friendship.

The fact that the present Israeli state sees the concept of the return of people to the land from which they have been forcibly excluded is an indication that there is something unhealthy in the current nature of that state. Zionism as it was originally conceived did not envisage the expulsion of the native population from the land to which they wished Jews to have a right to return, and to share it with them.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 11:02 AM

I need a short phrase to describe the group of same minded people who dominate these political threads.
DtG, PFR, Steve, Dave and Rag, currently absent.

It must not have any pejorative connotations, and I apologise unreservedly if my previous use of "you people" has led to any misunderstanding.

Please help me out.

The fact that the present Israeli state sees the concept of the return of people to the land from which they have been forcibly excluded

Israel is a tiny sliver of land and could not accommodate a million "returnees," few if any born in 1948,

In 1948 Israel did absorb on its tiny sliver expelled Jews from Arab states. Their numbers were much greater than that of displaced Arabs, who were not allowed to settle in all those vast Arab lands

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 11:20 AM

"I need a short phrase to describe the group of same minded people"
You have one Keith - "Left wing extremists"
I asked you to provide examples and you offer none so you lied
Try humanitarians then go and looki it up - it appears to be a foreign concept to you
"The fence is within Israel's original border."
You haven't answered the fact that Palestinian's for the largerst group of exked people on the planet thanks to Israeli ethnic cleansing
I suggested that you should have asked why these people were massacred - you didn't reply
"New border? New fence?"Go look at the"BEFORE and AFTER" maps and repeat that Keith
Your argument appears to be that, because Israel is "a tine sliver of land" it has the right to eveict anybody who gets in their way, despite the fact that they have lived theitr for many centuries - millennia even.
an interesting concept of Human Rights -lamost as interesting as giving the right to soldiers to shoot down unarmed protesters
Is this the "middle-of-the-road' ground you claim to occupy?
Interesting!!!J
I'd hate to meet those who drive either side of that particular road
im Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 20
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 11:22 AM

The whole ideology of Zionism is about the right to "return" of people on the basis that their ancestors were unjustly driven, together with a notion of a right as "descendants of Abraham" to live in "the Holy Land". Both those things are equally true of Palestinian Arabs.

Where is there any need or justification to have a collective term for a variety of people who happen to disagree with you on a particular issue, and who undoubtedly hold a wide range of views on many other issues (as some attention to other discussions in Mudcat threads would make abundantly clear)? I would surmise that in fact, even on the issue of Israel/Palestine there is quite a variety of views even among those who do disagree with your point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 12:56 PM

"New border? New fence?"Go look at the"BEFORE and AFTER" maps and repeat that Keith

The border with Gaza now is exactly as it was in 1948.

Re. "You people."

OK if I revert to calling that specific named group "the pack" ?

Ians calls them "mudrats" but that could be seen as offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 01:13 PM

I refer to 'mudcat mates', whatever their qualities or obnoxious tendencies...

No need for 'us against them' in a small community where folks try to put up with each other
and get along...?????

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:08 PM

"The border with Gaza now is exactly as it was in 1948."
You haaave just been given the maps Keith
It takes a gread deal of stupidity to deny something that has been put in front of you
"OK if I revert to calling that specific named group "the pack" ?"
Cant speak for the rest but call me what you lik as long a you don't mind me calling you The Klan - if you wish to reveryt to insults instead of arguments again
In my life I've argued and discussed with people of every shade of politics and philosophy, from fanatical anarchists to extremists like the National Front and 'Keep Britain White
I can hand on-heart say I have never met such a hate-filled, irrational, inhuman individual like you
You are informed that there has been a massacre - your first instinct is to blame the victims - you have expressed no condemnation of this horrisuic event against unarmed protesters, you have shown not a shred of sympathy for those who died or have lost family members
Even before ht bastards who carried out his attack you have excused them, defended them and given them yor utmost cringing support
What kind of idividual does that - not a Christian (which you claim to nbe, not a rational Liberal - not even a human being
You are one sick cookie
As I said - call me what you like - I only have to remamber what an excuse for a human being you are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:21 PM

Jim,
You haaave just been given the maps Keith

Yes, but the "after" map did not show Gaza at all!

The border with Gaza is now exactly as it was in 1948.
Anything else I can educate you on?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:24 PM

McGrath would you also grant the right of return to the Jews who were expelled from neighbouring Arab countries and ethnically cleansed from the West Bank by Jordan?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:31 PM

I should add in my previous question to McGrath to the Jews and their descendants.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:32 PM

If Israel was too small to begin with,
unable to cope with it's expanding birthrate and continuous influx of immigrant Jews from all over the globe...


How come they don't just build far more skyscraper apartments...???

.. just an innocent thought...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 04:47 PM

If Israel was too small to begin with,

Actually to begin with the territory initially allotted to the Jewish people for their national homeland comprised all of what is Israel today including Judea and Samaria and Gaza plus the territory comprising the country known today as Jordan which was then taken from the Jewish people and reconstituted into an Arab only country forbidden to habitation by Jews. Jordan comprises approximately 77% of the total land mass initially allotted to the Jewish people for their homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 05:06 PM

"McGrath would you also grant the right of return to the Jews who were expelled from neighbouring Arab countries and ethnically cleansed from the West Bank by Jordan?"

Of course I would. If a just settlement in Israel/Palestine can be achieved, there is no reason that that could not in time be achieved. After all Germany now welcomes the return of Jewish exiles, and the rebuilding of Jewish communities. There is no reason why in time the same could be true. In the cases of Arab countries. So far as antisemitism is concerned Arab countries have a far better record in history than most European countries.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:05 PM

Well McGrath, we have a little problem there in that the majority of the Arab countries that expelled their Jewish citizens, citizens who I might add can often trace their citizenry in those countries back 2000 years, have official policies that forbid entry to their countries to Jews. Also the stated policy of the Palestinian Authority is that their future state will be Judenrein. Those inconvenient little truths are conveniently overlooked by those who are intent on demonizing Israel.

Here are some government policies that Jews would face if they were permitted to return to the countries where they lived for generations:

More on this subject to be found HERE

In Libya, in 1953, Jews were subjected to restrictions and became victims of economic boycotts. The Maccabi sports club was forcibly opened to Arab members in 1954. A decree was issued on 9 May 1957 obliging Libyans with relatives in Israel to register at the Libyan boycott office, even though at that point, 90 percent of the Jews had already left. On 3 December 1958, Tripoli’s Jewish community ceased to be an independent entity. Thereafter it was overseen by a state-appointed commissioner. Legal exclusion worsened. In 1960, Jews were prohibited from acquiring new possessions. They were no longer allowed to vote, hold public office, or serve in the army or the police. On 2 April 1960, Alliance Israélite Universelle schools were closed.

Similar developments occurred in Lebanon. As early as 1947, Jewish students were expelled from Beirut University. Jewish “Zionist” organizations (such as the Maccabi sports club) were forbidden. Jews were discharged from public service positions and Jewish youth movements banned.

In Iraq, Jewish history and Hebrew language instruction were prohibited in Jewish schools during the 1920s. Jews were expelled from public service and education in the 1930s. The Jewish schools’ curricula were censored in 1932.

In Iran, Zionist activities (differentiated from “Jewish” activities) were banned in 1979. In 2000, discrimination developed in public service, universities, and public companies.

In Yemen, sharia law was instated in 1913, worsening the situation of the dhimmi. Decrees specifying forced conversion for orphans were issued between 1922 and 1928, while Jews were excluded from public service positions and the army.

In Syria, real estate purchase was prohibited to Jews in 1947, and Jews began to be discharged from public service positions. In 1967, Muslim principals were appointed to Jewish schools.

In Morocco, after independence in 1956, a process of Arabization of public services began, cutting the Jews off from the larger society. A dahir (decree) Moroccanizing Jewish charitable organizations was issued on 26 November 1958, endangering their freedom.

In Egypt, a long process of discrimination in the public service began in 1929. In 1945-1948, Jews were excluded from the public service. In 1947, Jewish schools were put under surveillance and forced to Arabize and Egyptianize their curricula. Community organizations were forced to submit their member lists to the Egyptian state after May 1948 and until 1950. In 1949, Jews were forbidden to live in the vicinity of King Farouk’s palaces.

In Tunisia, a law concerning Judaism (11 July 1958) put an end to Jewish communities, replaced them with temporary “Israelite worship commissions,” and suppressed the personal status of the Jews (inherited from the dhimmi status, which obliged the Jews to depend on their religious tribunals for all matters related to their personal status). In Tunisia too, independence (1956) led to the Tunisification of public services.

Turkey under the Young Turks (1923-1945) created hard-labor battalions for non-Muslim conscripts in May 1941.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:44 PM

The case of Germany and in fact other European nations is relevant in this context, both when it comes to generating antisemitism, and in recovering from it. We have in many ways a far worse record of antisemitism than the Arab countries. In many ways the developments you list, bodacious, are best seen as cases of Westernisation on the part of those countries, following the lead of their richer and more powerful neighbours to the North; and of course the events in Palestine had a major role in encouraging those kind of thing.

If there were a solution in Israel/Palestine, whether that involved two states, separate cantons within one stare, or a unified state, that would remove the factor that prevents a movement of reconciliation within the whole region, There are certainly no reason, for example, to believe that Morocco could not come to welcome the return of its exiled ancient Jewish community, which had lived there for thousands of years, with roots far older than the Jewish Dispersion from Palestine in the first century. Is it suggested that Moroccans are genetically antisemitic in a way that Germans and other Europeans are not?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:49 PM

"Bodacious" That wasn't me engaging in the common practice of mocking the names of people with whose views I am engaged, a practice I detest. It was my iPad thinking it knew better than I did, and putting in the word it thought I was trying to write. I intended to write "bobad".

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 07:00 PM

Anything else I can educate you on?"
Piss of, you arrogant twat
The whole conflict is based on the seizure of land that was allocated to teh Palestinians - teh only reason Israel has not been tried for land stealing and human rights abuses is that it is protected by around 100 US vetoes - pretty well the same as Russia and China protected Assad for his atrocities

AMNESTY "LAND GRAB" STATEMENT

The massacre you are so fanatically defendeig took place because of these land siezures
What kind of a sick individuals are you?
I don't kno about educating - you need psycholgical help
Sick bastard!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 07:22 PM

Some background on those poor, innocent, peaceful demonstrators so callously targeted by the vile Jewish demons:

1. Mosa'ab Salol — 23 years old, resident of Zo'ida, active operative of the Hamas terror organization's military wing. Neutralized by IDF troops near the Northern Gaza Strip as he and an accomplice fired at the troops.
2. Sari Abu Odeh — 28 years old, resident of Beit Hanoun, active operative of the Hamas terror organization's military wing in the Beit Hanoun Battalion.
3. Jihad Frina — 35 years old, resident of Sheikh Radwan, Company Commander in the Hamas terror organization's military wing.
4. Ahmad Odeh — 19 years old, resident of Gaza City, active operative of the Hamas terror organization's Shati Battalion.
5. Hamdan Abu Amshe — 25 years old, resident of Beit Hanoun, active operative of the Hamas terror organization.
6. Muhammad Rahmi — 33 years old, resident of Shuja'iyya Turkman, active operative of the Hamas terror organization.
7. Muhammad Abu Amro — 27 years old, resident of Shuja'iyya Turkman, active operative of the Hamas terror organization's tunnel-digging initiatives.
8. Abed Elrahman Abed Elnabi — 20 years old, resident of Lahia, active operative of the Hamas terror organization's military wing.
9. Ebraheem Abu Sha'er — 29 years old, resident of Rafah, active operative of the Islamic Jihad.
10. Jihad Zuhier Salman Abu Jamos — 30 years old, resident of Bani Suheila, active operative of the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 08:03 PM

ter bullshit Bobad - nobody could possible have gathered this information in day
You carefully did not link your list - little wonder -
HERE IS YOUR SOURCE - an extremist right-wing blog inspired by Shin Bet
The Bloggers are described thus in their Wiki entry

"According to a report published in October 2009 by Inter Press Service, StandWithUs has received funds from a "web of funders who support organisations that have been accused of anti-Muslim propaganda and encouraging a militant Israeli and U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East." The organization countered by stating, "Radical Islam has impacted the Middle East greatly. All this stuff comes from a very fundamentalist religious position and looking at it does not make you right- or left-wing."[20][21][22]
In response to a December 2011 article in The Forward,[23] Rothstein wrote a letter to the editor criticizing the newspaper's attempt “to discredit us as 'right wing.'” She stated that "StandWithUs does not and has never advocated specific policies for Israel” and that its work is “not contingent on which parties are in power"; rather, she wrote, its goal “has been to counter the vicious anti-Israel, anti-Semitic propaganda campaign that was unleashed along with the intifada in September 2000" by helping "to educate the public about Israel and empower others to educate their communities." Rothstein stated that "Israel is the only modern state whose right to exist is still questioned. If you consider support for the existence of the Jewish state a right-wing position, then indeed we are right wing. Yet you repeatedly confused anti-Israel propaganda with 'reasonable criticism' of Israeli policies."[24]
In response to an open letter in Billboard Magazine by the Creative Community for Peace (CCFP) titled “200 Hollywood Heavyweights Support Israel”, some media and activists asked whether Hollywood stars like Ziggy Marley, Seth Rogen and Sarah Silverman were aware that the “Creative Community for Peace” was “a sanitizing front for the right-wing, pro-settler organization StandWithUs, that has deep ties to the Israeli government”.[25]
In January 2015, StandWithUs announced a possible partnership for a joint social media program with the National Information Directorate of the Israeli Prime Minister’s Office focused on Israel education.[26] The partnership however, never took place and StandWithUs remains an independent non-profit organization.[27]

The first rule of carrying out atrocities is to denigrate the victims - this is a crued and cruelk attempt to do that to the victims of a massace who ares still warm
You people really are disgusting non-humans
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 08:09 PM

Full entry for STAND WITH US
A step up from your usual "Muslim Watch" and "White Supremist", but only just
Are you not capable of decent, honest argument ?
I think you've made my case about Israeli extremism pretty well if this is all yuo can come up with
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 08:51 PM

Here is a post I just did on the other thread, which should really be about the current attack on Jeremy Coor6n, and which really belongs over here:


In any situation like this it is always claimed initially that the victims were there as supporters of violent struggle. Remember Bloody Sunday?

Sometimes of course this can be the case. It is perfectly possible for someone who has seen violence as the only option to be brought to try another kind of struggle. In fact, unless people who have been committed to violence can do this, there can be little hope of escaping the tragic game of atrocity and response arrocity, which has lasted for decades.

The stated aims of the people organising this campaign has been to engage in nonviolent struggle, meaning the use of tactics that are not intended to kill opponents. The fact that all the dead so far have been protestors is evidence that the protesters have been holding to that. The common practice of the authorities in situations like this invariably is to undermine protesters' claims to be nonviolent as false, either by provoking violent response, or by demonstrating that victims were really terrorists, in some cases by falsifying evidence and planting weapons. Or of course by defining slingshots and stones as equivalent to guns and bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 04:12 PM

I suspect that if it was any country other than Israel then the international condemnation, of what we see taking place,
would be overwhelming.
But having carefully created a situation where any criticism of Israeli government action is considered antisemitic, they have free rein to carry out activities most people despise.
It is long past time thus cloak was obliterated and the actions can be clearly seen for what they are.
It is significant that The United Nations General Assembly has adopted a number of resolutions saying that the strategic relationship with the United States encourages Israel to pursue aggressive and expansionist policies and practices.
,

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 08:00 PM

Well said, Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 08:26 PM

Drink to that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 11:16 PM

Y'mean the condemation of Russia/ Bashar Assad for the destruction wrought on Syrian civilians?

The condemnation of Russia for the destruction wrought on Ukraine (and Dutch) civilians?

The condemnation of Saudi Arabia /Yemen (or Iran /Huthies) for destruction/ starvation of Yemeni civilians?

The condemnation of People's Republic of Congo for the destruction of Congolese institutions and infrastructure?

The condemnation of Sudan/ South Sudan for the depradations on Sudanese/ South Sudanese?

The condemnation of Eritrea for depradations on Eritrean people and ethnic minorities in that sad state?

Oh, and there's always been North Korea? Let's give them a break becuase that's all gonna get sorted out real soon!

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 11:42 PM

Robo - There are definitely some extremely shit people ruling countries...
Religion and ethnicity are the least factors...
shit people are just shit people...

the arse of the world needs to be wiped.....

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 06:55 AM

Israel has refused to hold an enquiry into this massacre of unarmed dmonstratiors - no surprise there
They have decided that ten of those murdered were "terrorists" based on the figure claimed by Shinn Bet five hours after the killings took place
Israel should be congratulated for the miraculous ability of its marksmen in identifying and identifying and taking out so many terrorists among so many thousands of demonatrators
"Another massacre for old Israel" as the song nearly said!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:08 AM

The Israeli military on Saturday night identified 10 of the 15 people reported killed during violent protests along the Gaza security fence as members of Palestinian terrorist groups, and published a list of their names and positions in the organizations.

Hamas admits that five were theirs.
Hamas is recognised as a terrorist organisation.

I am just stating facts. Do not accuse me of supporting anything or anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:51 PM

When did they identify them, Keith? Before or after they summarily slaughtered them?

Beats having to apply the death penalty via the justice system any day. None of that expensive trial-by-jury crap and all that adverse publicity that always comes with having to hang people, etc., not to speak of tbe expense of keeping them on death row for months or years. Much easier to kill the bastards in cold blood first then bleat that they were terrorists anyway...