BS: Irish Rugby players rape case

Subject: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:47 AM

the complete story of the Belfast rape trial - The Irish Times
https://www.irishtimes.com/.../inside-court-12-the-complete-story-of-the-belfast-rape-t...

3 days ago - There's no one reason why the trial gripped people's attention. The men's celebrity status is the most obvious factor – Jackson and Olding both play rugby for Ireland and Ulster, with Jackson seen as having a bright future in the national squad. If the trial was in the Republic they could not have been named."
Opinions on this case, please after you have read the whole article

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:47 AM

sorry can this be put below the line

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 05:39 AM

Bloody disgusting and exactly what you'd expect from rugby players.

Team sports are something the world doesn't need and the culture of rugby is one of the most repulsive of the lot.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 05:48 AM

"after you have read the whole article"
And the tweets from the rugby players describing the victim as "a slut"
A sordid case of a woman being raped twice, first by her alleged assailants, then by the "justice" system
Little wonder the vast majority of raped women never report the crime
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:34 AM

Please Jack, all rugby players are not all the same. if so, you have just insulted me and many honourable men and women.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 08:31 AM

I think she was raped

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:20 AM

I grew up in New Zealand where rugby is the national religion. They make ISIS look like feminists.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 10:56 AM

Shocking story. The players were acquitted, whether you believe this was correct or not.
Shocking allegations by Jack.
Don't see any place for this on Mudcat whether above or below the line.
I have been married to a rugby player for over 40 years: an honourable man.
Over and out.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 12:23 PM

Well said Tattie Bogle

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 12:29 PM

I'm afraid this is going to run and run TB
There have been huge demonstrations, largely of women demanding a more even-handed approach to rape trials - the gender make-up of this particular trial has been one of the features to be challenged
While I agree it would be wrong to associate this particular incident with rugby players in general; the problem here seems to be with top-of-the-scrum superstars and the privilege they command
Whether the verdict was right or wrong, the accused did not behave well - on the night in question, later when they tweeted their "pig-on-a-spit" description of the woman at the party to their friend and to top it all,   their triumphalist tweets, after the verdict, describing her as a "slut"
In today's atmosphere of sexual harassment, this thuggery has caused a lot of bad feeling
As I said - it's no wonder the vast majority of rape victims are too afraid to report their ordeal
I'm not a woman, but these statistics SCARE THE KLARTS OUT OF ME
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Raedwulf
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 01:42 PM

I have to agree, Tattie. This is muck-racking garbage, The jury heard the evidence, as we have not. They decided on "Not Guilty". Who are Jack Campin, The Sandman, or Jim Caroll (yes, you, Jim!) to say otherwise?

In the eyes of the law, they are Not Guilty, and that is that. Or it should be...

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 04:11 PM

I am entitled to an opinion, it is called free speech, I think the jury came to the wrong verdict, it is something that in my opinion should be discussed, it is not muck raking garbage, why was it necessary for it to be a unanilous verdict?
why did the judge emphasise the importance of evidence of a so called crucial witness, this witness jumped to a conclusion based on a brief vision, and not being aware whether the victim was aware of her presence., concluded it was consensual, no it is not satisfactory at all

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 04:44 PM

Tattie you have my sympathy ... what position does she play?

A female work colleague with a young daughter was on the jury of a rape trial in which the accused was found not guilty. She agreed with the jury's decision because the heard ALL of the evidence,however the media reports she heard and read only highlighted the parts that suited them.

Having been on jury duty 3 times, hearing ALL the evidence is essential before making up your mind except in the case where the defence lawyer inadvertently? but very subtly told us that his client was guilty.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 05:31 PM

So what's the alternative to a trial? A lynch mob?

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 03:21 AM

A correctly conducted trial
.Judging from the tweets of the accused they had complete disrespect for the complainant.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 03:32 AM

The credibility of the witness who said she saw a threesome is questionable, and is at odds with one of the accused comments,yet the judge directs the jury in a particular way, questionable.
does it not occur to any of you that the witness who BRIEFLY SAW what she THOUGHT was a CONSENSUAL threesome could have been mistaken, how long did she watch?was the complainant aware of the other womans presence watching? yet the judge indictes to the jury the importance of this witness, despite it being at odds to one of the accused rugby plers version.
no, this trial was conducted by the judge imo in a poor way

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 06:15 AM

"In the eyes of the law, they are Not Guilty, and that is that. Or it should be.."
That is not being disputed by me
It is the way the defendants behaved towards the woman at the time (whether it was consensual or not), the way they boasted of their "conquests" to their friends immediately after, and the appallingly denigrating tweets they sent after they won their case that brought many thousands of women out on the streets last week
Guilty or not, they behaved like the strutting misogynistic savages they appear to be
After all that has gone on over the last few years regarding women's rights not to be persecuted and molested, behaving publicly, as they did has set the position of women in society back a few years
Mae Chauvinist Pigs have always been with us and probably will be for some time to come - public displays of it need to be checked
They may not be guilty of rape but they are certainly guilty of porcine behaviour
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 06:25 AM

I totally agree with you Jim. It's their appalling attitude that disgusts, even though they were found Not Guilty. Misogynism personified.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 06:30 AM

No problem in agreeing that they are contemptible, just in the assumption that being contemptible should mean that the Not Guilty verdict must have been mistaken.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 07:08 AM

McGrath, but that was not my assumption my assumption is based on th evidence presented to the court, and the judges unbelievable directions to the jury.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 07:19 AM

"should mean that the Not Guilty verdict ..."
Weee...lll
The directive of the judge to the jury at her summing up was the the men's "good character" needs to be taken into consideration
If their behaviour is anything to go by, that was a mis-direction.
Another rugby International is in trouble - accuse of racism for describing the French in an article as "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys" (a Jeremy Clarkism, if ever there was one)
Maybe, like boxing, the game damages the brain!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 07:23 AM

I have read next to nothing about this case, the whole media coverage seemed to be salacious gossiping.

However the judge and the jury heard all the evidence, not just tit-bits paraded on the news or in the newspapers. They found the two men not guilty.

I wonder if either will ever play Rugby again at the level they did and would surmise that their careers and earning potential have been slashed.

They may well be fully paid up arseholes but their careers have probably been ruined by what the judge and jury believe were untruths.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 07:31 AM

the contemptible comments are such that the men regarded the complainant as an object,that is the same attitude that rapists have, so their attitude to the victim is similiar to that of a rapist.
So we have a judge who chose not to direct the jury in that direction but to put emphasis pn a witness whose evidence was based on a few seconds] and whose evidence was contradicted by one of the rugby players, then there is all the rest of the evidence including medical,    no, imo this was an incorrect decision, and a poorly conducted trial.
that is my opinion, furthermore we live in a world where free speech is allowed.
i have made no remarks about other rugby players.
Does it not occur to you McGRATH, that since their comments indicate that they treated this woman as an object,that in fact the sex was not consensua?

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 07:38 AM

It's often very difficult to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' that a sexual act was consensual. I'm not in the least victim blaming, but sometimes there are misunderstandings and assumptions that might be blurred or wrongly interpreted.

Courts of Law have to depend on 'beyond reasonable doubt' or a conviction cannot happen.

However, from what these men posted after the trial, one can only regard them as absolute pigs in their attitudes towards women.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 07:55 AM

It doesn't "imply" that it must have been rape, I'm afraid. There is nothing unusual in men who hold such attitudes having consensual sex on this particular occasion, or even generally.

None of us were there. I doubt if anyone on this thread has read a full transcript of the trial. Juries do sometimes find guilty people to be not guilty, just as they sometimes find people guilty when they shouldn't.

The traditional official view has been that the latter is worse, and that the courts are better to make mistakes in the other direction than risk falling into the latter. I suspect that in practice the opposite may often be the case - but that may not be true in the case of rape, where it is by the nature of things remarkably hard to prove what happened beyond a reasonable doubt.

The thing is "beyond a reasonable doubt" really should be a remarkably high level requirement. If a jury member believes merely someone was "probably" guilty, they should opt for Not Guilty.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 08:01 AM

In Scotland, they used to have another verdict available to juries of 'Not Proven'. I don't know if they still do.
However, I suppose such a conclusion would leave a slur on the defendant's character, which may or may not be merited.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 08:25 AM

" but their careers have probably been ruined by what the judge and jury believe were untruths."
Doubtful - they'll probably end up as interviewers on chat shows !
Their careers would not have been ruined, or even affected had they not behaved as they did - there have been a number of celebrity cases where things have just moved on
In rape trials, the woman's sexual history is displayed for the world to see, where the man's is displayed as 'being a man' - often a cause for admiration - much in evidence in the many thousand of abusive tweets that have now appeared
If this trial has done anything it has raised the question of how rape trials are conduvcted
The jury was made up of eight men and three women - highly debatable in a heavily misogynistic society
It is being suggested that these trials be conducted by a permanent specialist tribunal in camera rather than a randomly selected jury
Makes sense to me.
Whatever the outcome of all this (it has just started rather than ended), something has to be done to redress the percentage of reported rapes and number of convictions of the few that do reach trial
The only person to have come out of this with a shred of dignity is the woman herself - wonder what would have happened if that had been taken into consideration by the jury!
It speaks volumes to me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 08:51 AM

Unfortunately Jim as the men were found not guilty, the woman in question is labeled as a liar, in court, on oath.

There is no dignity in that.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 09:07 AM

"There is no dignity in that."
Strangely there is - you only need to read some of the press responses and letters overwhelmingly in her support and not just by women
This trail really has touched a nerve in the way none of the others have
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 09:19 AM

Again from people without access to the full details of the case, which I may add none of the people, myself included, has.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 09:26 AM

The problem is that nobody has nor will have an idea on which the verdict was reached
The judge has forbidden the jury to discuss the grounds on which the decision was reached (I don't know if that is normal) and she decided she would accept a majority verdict so we don't know idf there was a large of small margin of agreement
The atmosphere that hangs over this case is not so much about the case itself but whether any of these trials are reliable - the system is now on trial, not this verdict
I think Sen has a point about the Scots "not proven" sytem
This has to be about justice, not about one case
The system is broken and needs fixing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 11:38 AM

The trouble is, if men see that getting a conviction is not easy, they might feel free to force sex upon women in compromising situations with no fear of prosecution. And women who have been abused sexually will be very reluctant to report it or press charges.

We need to foster a climate of 'no means no' and the imperative of being sure consent is given. This doesn't necessarily comprise merely a firm refusal, but also includes not assuming a woman is agreeing if she's very drunk or under the influence of drugs. That's where the line blurs. These days, women can be in a vulnerable state and unable to reject advances. (I'm NOT victim-blaming, because it should be up to the man to consider her state and be responsible and respectful)

I feel it's all very sad and the Law must protect women as much as possible. But there have also been a few cases where a man has been falsely accused of rape by a vindictive woman. This can ruin a man's career, and he will probably be sent to prison.

But I still believe that 'beyond reasonable doubt' should be the guiding rule.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Thompson
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 02:31 PM

The problem with this trial was that it was in Northern Ireland, where rape trials are conducted in public. In this case, there was an enormous public gallery; while the now 21-year-old woman accusing these men of raping her on June 2016 gave her evidence from behind a curtain, her image was projected on a screen visible to the public. The accused men were also visible, and were photographed arriving at and leaving the court.

If the trial had been held in the Republic of Ireland rather than in Northern Ireland, it would have been held in camera; no public would have been allowed in, and neither the accuser nor the men she accused would have been identified. Different rules in different jurisdictions.

Here's an account of the goings-on that the public trial encouraged.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 01:28 AM

It is always forbidden for jury members in the UK to publicly discuss the reasons for their verdict - it counts as contempt of court with very serious penalties. This even goes for any attempt to investigate the process by researchers.

The trouble with rape cases is that most of the time there is likely to be virtually no evidence over and above what the people involved say. In such cases by definition it's extremely hard to reach the "beyond all reasonable doubt" level. There seems no question that it is common for men who were probably guilty to walk free in such cases - but that is what should happen in fact happen, if it is just a matter of "probable".

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 03:32 AM

I expect the various women's movements will issue a Fatwah on me, but I have to say nevertheless that women (and men) have a certain responsibility to themselves when out drinking/taking drugs etc.
This isn't the same as victim-blaming, but it's just being prudent.
If one gets blind drunk and goes to bed with someone, one is putting oneself in danger. That doesn't give any man the right to take advantage, but if one is undressed on a bed and acting provocatively, one risks rape or assault by unscrupulous individuals
.
If one wants to avoid such traumatic attacks, it would be better not to become completely inebriated and not to render oneself out of control of a potentially dodgy situation.

If I walked down the High Street at night alone, and with my handbag wide open showing wads of cash, I'd be very silly. It doesn't exonerate the thief, but it makes it much easier for him/her.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:12 AM

It's interesting to see how the two Governments, Britain and Ireland, are reacting to women's claims to being raped
In the light of the Belfast case, The Irish Government have decided to change the Law regarding how complaints are dealt with
In Britain, the head of the Prosecution Service has been severely reprimanded for the number of 'false accusations by women' which have led to 'injustices'
Ah well - back to the Dark Ages!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:31 AM

in this case, the time spent questioning the complainant was unfair in relastion to the time spent questioning the accused, the judge should have intervened.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: John Moulden
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 09:01 AM

Only the jury heard (and saw) all the evidence being given, heard about all the unpleasant communications between the accused and had the opportunity of determining the unfairness or otherwise of the questioning of any witness. With that information the jury took an astonishingly short time to reach a UNANIMOUS verdict. They are the representatives of the people - they represent fully informed and serious public opinion. They found the accused not guilty, overwhelmingly. That is enough for the moment. They must be regarded as innocent. However, there could and should be more.

The judge's directions should be subjected to the scrutiny of the DPP to see if an appeal is justified. The rules of proceedings of courts in such cases should be changed - there should be anonymity for both complainant and accused, those accused should not be named until convicted - the public should be excluded and the press be forbidden to even hint at identities.

The way in which such trials are conducted in Northern Ireland made this a disaster for all concerned. There is little doubt that celebrity, and high profile movements, like #metoo, made this into a disaster for the principals and their families. There should never again be such an unseemly business around any such case.

There are other elements too which can be summed up in one word: respect - for others and oneself. The extent to which sex (we used to call it 'love making') has become casual - appalls me. It is not simply that men (as symbolized by 'rugby players' used as a term of contempt) are misogynistic and brutally opportunistic - depraved: it is that girls are also, in their way, depraved; using sex solely for gratification; where is 'love' in all of this? Where is love in all the shades of 'Grey'? There was love in Lady Chatterly's Lover. This forum is devoted to the love of songs; it should equally defend the ideas of love in all manifestations. The problem for me in this case, is the virtual absence of love on all sides and that is not just a personal failure, not merely a social failure; it is a human failure.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 10:31 AM

Senoufou, you're quite right, people shouldn't get blind drunk.

But you're aiming at the wrong target. Men shouldn't get blind drunk to an extent that it blurs their sense of correct behaviour. In the many, many rape cases I've read about in recent years, the victim was occasionally drunk; the rapists were almost universally very drunk.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 18 - 11:54 AM

The two 'gentlemen players' have had their team contracts withdrawn by an enquiry committee (after a generous golden handshake, of course)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Apr 18 - 01:09 PM

I found the article well written and a bit too clinical and disturbing to finish right now.

In general, in the parts I live in, Alaska and more specifically the city of Anchorage, alcohol is usually included as a factor in car accidents and reported rapes.

For a long time I've held the opinion that alcohol on the part of the actor is an excuse and not a real reason. Most people know what they're doing when they're doing it.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 18 - 01:27 PM

The problem wasn't the verdict (though it is treated with suspicion by many here), but the behavior of the accused (particularly boastful and incredibly vicios insulting of the woman concerned on line) describing her ordeal as "spit roasting"   
To their credit, the inquiry board felt it wasn't the image they wanted for their game
It wouldn't surprise me if they don't sue the victim - they seem that sort
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:07 AM

On the 1st of April I posted:

"I wonder if either will ever play Rugby again at the level they did and would surmise that their careers and earning potential have been slashed.
They may well be fully paid up arseholes but their careers have probably been ruined by what the judge and jury believe were untruths."

So the untruths have ruined the careers of two men, where is the justice in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:18 AM

"probably been ruined by what the judge and jury believe were untruths."
The jury have been forbidden to talk about the trial and there is an indication that some people are unhappy with the judge's directions
Beside the point Raggy - the players careers ended because of their behaviour outside the trial with their openly declared misogynistic attitude to the woman in question and their brutal boasting of what happened, consensual or not
The inquiry decided that that was not a image suitable image for the game
In fact, the repercussions of the trial have caused the Irish Government to look at how rape is handled and how it should be handled in future

The dismissed players weer given an undisclosed (and redoubtable donkey-chocking) figure as settlement
Wonder how the woman is coping!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:34 AM

Jim, neither you nor I know the full story, the only people who do know the full story were the girl and the players. The judge and jury found in favour of the two men. That is a plain and simple fact. The men have subsequently been found "guilty" by the "court of public opinion" and you like I know that often to be unsound, unreasonable and unfair.


The Court of Public Opinion

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 05:00 AM

As I said Raggy - nothing to do with the verdict - or public opinion for that matter
Both the Rugby authorities and the Irish Government have no idea how the 'public' feel about it - odds on, they believe "she asked for what she got" would be the order of the day in the misogynistic society we live in
It is quite possible the jury of seven men and for women held the same view
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 05:07 AM

"odds on, they believe "she asked for what she got" would be the order of the day in the misogynistic society we live in"

Yeah, right Jim, that's why they terminated the contracts of the two men.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 05:43 AM

Nobody can know what went on during the jury's deliberations. But I expect the 'Court of Public Opinion' was influenced by the despicable (and public) remarks made by these cretins after the trial.
And I prefer to call a physically mature adult female a WOMAN, not a GIRL.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 05:54 AM

"Yeah, right Jim, that's why they terminated the contracts of the two men. "
There's a lot of public pressure here (by women mainly) for the State to clean up its act
I suspect putting bums on seats is more in the mind of the Rugby authorities than the ethics of the thing - this is not the first time rugby players (and other sportsmen) have been involved in shenanigans like this)
Never fear - a leading French Club has made moves so sign up Jackson - a double bonus for describing sex with a drunk young woman "spit roast) when he tweeted it to his mates
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 06:20 AM

It's my age Senoufou, any female aged 19 is a girl to me. But I stand corrected.

Jim, I do not condone the attitudes of these two men towards women, it is abhorrent. However, rightly or wrongly, they were found INNOCENT in law. That should have been the end of the story.