BS: Irish Rugby players rape case

Subject: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:47 AM

the complete story of the Belfast rape trial - The Irish Times
https://www.irishtimes.com/.../inside-court-12-the-complete-story-of-the-belfast-rape-t...

3 days ago - There's no one reason why the trial gripped people's attention. The men's celebrity status is the most obvious factor – Jackson and Olding both play rugby for Ireland and Ulster, with Jackson seen as having a bright future in the national squad. If the trial was in the Republic they could not have been named."
Opinions on this case, please after you have read the whole article

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 02:47 AM

sorry can this be put below the line

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 05:39 AM

Bloody disgusting and exactly what you'd expect from rugby players.

Team sports are something the world doesn't need and the culture of rugby is one of the most repulsive of the lot.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 05:48 AM

"after you have read the whole article"
And the tweets from the rugby players describing the victim as "a slut"
A sordid case of a woman being raped twice, first by her alleged assailants, then by the "justice" system
Little wonder the vast majority of raped women never report the crime
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 06:34 AM

Please Jack, all rugby players are not all the same. if so, you have just insulted me and many honourable men and women.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 08:31 AM

I think she was raped

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 09:20 AM

I grew up in New Zealand where rugby is the national religion. They make ISIS look like feminists.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 10:56 AM

Shocking story. The players were acquitted, whether you believe this was correct or not.
Shocking allegations by Jack.
Don't see any place for this on Mudcat whether above or below the line.
I have been married to a rugby player for over 40 years: an honourable man.
Over and out.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 12:23 PM

Well said Tattie Bogle

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 12:29 PM

I'm afraid this is going to run and run TB
There have been huge demonstrations, largely of women demanding a more even-handed approach to rape trials - the gender make-up of this particular trial has been one of the features to be challenged
While I agree it would be wrong to associate this particular incident with rugby players in general; the problem here seems to be with top-of-the-scrum superstars and the privilege they command
Whether the verdict was right or wrong, the accused did not behave well - on the night in question, later when they tweeted their "pig-on-a-spit" description of the woman at the party to their friend and to top it all,   their triumphalist tweets, after the verdict, describing her as a "slut"
In today's atmosphere of sexual harassment, this thuggery has caused a lot of bad feeling
As I said - it's no wonder the vast majority of rape victims are too afraid to report their ordeal
I'm not a woman, but these statistics SCARE THE KLARTS OUT OF ME
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Raedwulf
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 01:42 PM

I have to agree, Tattie. This is muck-racking garbage, The jury heard the evidence, as we have not. They decided on "Not Guilty". Who are Jack Campin, The Sandman, or Jim Caroll (yes, you, Jim!) to say otherwise?

In the eyes of the law, they are Not Guilty, and that is that. Or it should be...

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 04:11 PM

I am entitled to an opinion, it is called free speech, I think the jury came to the wrong verdict, it is something that in my opinion should be discussed, it is not muck raking garbage, why was it necessary for it to be a unanilous verdict?
why did the judge emphasise the importance of evidence of a so called crucial witness, this witness jumped to a conclusion based on a brief vision, and not being aware whether the victim was aware of her presence., concluded it was consensual, no it is not satisfactory at all

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 04:44 PM

Tattie you have my sympathy ... what position does she play?

A female work colleague with a young daughter was on the jury of a rape trial in which the accused was found not guilty. She agreed with the jury's decision because the heard ALL of the evidence,however the media reports she heard and read only highlighted the parts that suited them.

Having been on jury duty 3 times, hearing ALL the evidence is essential before making up your mind except in the case where the defence lawyer inadvertently? but very subtly told us that his client was guilty.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 05:31 PM

So what's the alternative to a trial? A lynch mob?

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 03:21 AM

A correctly conducted trial
.Judging from the tweets of the accused they had complete disrespect for the complainant.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 03:32 AM

The credibility of the witness who said she saw a threesome is questionable, and is at odds with one of the accused comments,yet the judge directs the jury in a particular way, questionable.
does it not occur to any of you that the witness who BRIEFLY SAW what she THOUGHT was a CONSENSUAL threesome could have been mistaken, how long did she watch?was the complainant aware of the other womans presence watching? yet the judge indictes to the jury the importance of this witness, despite it being at odds to one of the accused rugby plers version.
no, this trial was conducted by the judge imo in a poor way

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 06:15 AM

"In the eyes of the law, they are Not Guilty, and that is that. Or it should be.."
That is not being disputed by me
It is the way the defendants behaved towards the woman at the time (whether it was consensual or not), the way they boasted of their "conquests" to their friends immediately after, and the appallingly denigrating tweets they sent after they won their case that brought many thousands of women out on the streets last week
Guilty or not, they behaved like the strutting misogynistic savages they appear to be
After all that has gone on over the last few years regarding women's rights not to be persecuted and molested, behaving publicly, as they did has set the position of women in society back a few years
Mae Chauvinist Pigs have always been with us and probably will be for some time to come - public displays of it need to be checked
They may not be guilty of rape but they are certainly guilty of porcine behaviour
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 06:25 AM

I totally agree with you Jim. It's their appalling attitude that disgusts, even though they were found Not Guilty. Misogynism personified.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 06:30 AM

No problem in agreeing that they are contemptible, just in the assumption that being contemptible should mean that the Not Guilty verdict must have been mistaken.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 07:08 AM

McGrath, but that was not my assumption my assumption is based on th evidence presented to the court, and the judges unbelievable directions to the jury.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 07:19 AM

"should mean that the Not Guilty verdict ..."
Weee...lll
The directive of the judge to the jury at her summing up was the the men's "good character" needs to be taken into consideration
If their behaviour is anything to go by, that was a mis-direction.
Another rugby International is in trouble - accuse of racism for describing the French in an article as "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys" (a Jeremy Clarkism, if ever there was one)
Maybe, like boxing, the game damages the brain!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 07:23 AM

I have read next to nothing about this case, the whole media coverage seemed to be salacious gossiping.

However the judge and the jury heard all the evidence, not just tit-bits paraded on the news or in the newspapers. They found the two men not guilty.

I wonder if either will ever play Rugby again at the level they did and would surmise that their careers and earning potential have been slashed.

They may well be fully paid up arseholes but their careers have probably been ruined by what the judge and jury believe were untruths.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 07:31 AM

the contemptible comments are such that the men regarded the complainant as an object,that is the same attitude that rapists have, so their attitude to the victim is similiar to that of a rapist.
So we have a judge who chose not to direct the jury in that direction but to put emphasis pn a witness whose evidence was based on a few seconds] and whose evidence was contradicted by one of the rugby players, then there is all the rest of the evidence including medical,    no, imo this was an incorrect decision, and a poorly conducted trial.
that is my opinion, furthermore we live in a world where free speech is allowed.
i have made no remarks about other rugby players.
Does it not occur to you McGRATH, that since their comments indicate that they treated this woman as an object,that in fact the sex was not consensua?

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 07:38 AM

It's often very difficult to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' that a sexual act was consensual. I'm not in the least victim blaming, but sometimes there are misunderstandings and assumptions that might be blurred or wrongly interpreted.

Courts of Law have to depend on 'beyond reasonable doubt' or a conviction cannot happen.

However, from what these men posted after the trial, one can only regard them as absolute pigs in their attitudes towards women.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 07:55 AM

It doesn't "imply" that it must have been rape, I'm afraid. There is nothing unusual in men who hold such attitudes having consensual sex on this particular occasion, or even generally.

None of us were there. I doubt if anyone on this thread has read a full transcript of the trial. Juries do sometimes find guilty people to be not guilty, just as they sometimes find people guilty when they shouldn't.

The traditional official view has been that the latter is worse, and that the courts are better to make mistakes in the other direction than risk falling into the latter. I suspect that in practice the opposite may often be the case - but that may not be true in the case of rape, where it is by the nature of things remarkably hard to prove what happened beyond a reasonable doubt.

The thing is "beyond a reasonable doubt" really should be a remarkably high level requirement. If a jury member believes merely someone was "probably" guilty, they should opt for Not Guilty.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 08:01 AM

In Scotland, they used to have another verdict available to juries of 'Not Proven'. I don't know if they still do.
However, I suppose such a conclusion would leave a slur on the defendant's character, which may or may not be merited.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 08:25 AM

" but their careers have probably been ruined by what the judge and jury believe were untruths."
Doubtful - they'll probably end up as interviewers on chat shows !
Their careers would not have been ruined, or even affected had they not behaved as they did - there have been a number of celebrity cases where things have just moved on
In rape trials, the woman's sexual history is displayed for the world to see, where the man's is displayed as 'being a man' - often a cause for admiration - much in evidence in the many thousand of abusive tweets that have now appeared
If this trial has done anything it has raised the question of how rape trials are conduvcted
The jury was made up of eight men and three women - highly debatable in a heavily misogynistic society
It is being suggested that these trials be conducted by a permanent specialist tribunal in camera rather than a randomly selected jury
Makes sense to me.
Whatever the outcome of all this (it has just started rather than ended), something has to be done to redress the percentage of reported rapes and number of convictions of the few that do reach trial
The only person to have come out of this with a shred of dignity is the woman herself - wonder what would have happened if that had been taken into consideration by the jury!
It speaks volumes to me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 08:51 AM

Unfortunately Jim as the men were found not guilty, the woman in question is labeled as a liar, in court, on oath.

There is no dignity in that.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 09:07 AM

"There is no dignity in that."
Strangely there is - you only need to read some of the press responses and letters overwhelmingly in her support and not just by women
This trail really has touched a nerve in the way none of the others have
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 09:19 AM

Again from people without access to the full details of the case, which I may add none of the people, myself included, has.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 09:26 AM

The problem is that nobody has nor will have an idea on which the verdict was reached
The judge has forbidden the jury to discuss the grounds on which the decision was reached (I don't know if that is normal) and she decided she would accept a majority verdict so we don't know idf there was a large of small margin of agreement
The atmosphere that hangs over this case is not so much about the case itself but whether any of these trials are reliable - the system is now on trial, not this verdict
I think Sen has a point about the Scots "not proven" sytem
This has to be about justice, not about one case
The system is broken and needs fixing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 11:38 AM

The trouble is, if men see that getting a conviction is not easy, they might feel free to force sex upon women in compromising situations with no fear of prosecution. And women who have been abused sexually will be very reluctant to report it or press charges.

We need to foster a climate of 'no means no' and the imperative of being sure consent is given. This doesn't necessarily comprise merely a firm refusal, but also includes not assuming a woman is agreeing if she's very drunk or under the influence of drugs. That's where the line blurs. These days, women can be in a vulnerable state and unable to reject advances. (I'm NOT victim-blaming, because it should be up to the man to consider her state and be responsible and respectful)

I feel it's all very sad and the Law must protect women as much as possible. But there have also been a few cases where a man has been falsely accused of rape by a vindictive woman. This can ruin a man's career, and he will probably be sent to prison.

But I still believe that 'beyond reasonable doubt' should be the guiding rule.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Thompson
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 02:31 PM

The problem with this trial was that it was in Northern Ireland, where rape trials are conducted in public. In this case, there was an enormous public gallery; while the now 21-year-old woman accusing these men of raping her on June 2016 gave her evidence from behind a curtain, her image was projected on a screen visible to the public. The accused men were also visible, and were photographed arriving at and leaving the court.

If the trial had been held in the Republic of Ireland rather than in Northern Ireland, it would have been held in camera; no public would have been allowed in, and neither the accuser nor the men she accused would have been identified. Different rules in different jurisdictions.

Here's an account of the goings-on that the public trial encouraged.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 01:28 AM

It is always forbidden for jury members in the UK to publicly discuss the reasons for their verdict - it counts as contempt of court with very serious penalties. This even goes for any attempt to investigate the process by researchers.

The trouble with rape cases is that most of the time there is likely to be virtually no evidence over and above what the people involved say. In such cases by definition it's extremely hard to reach the "beyond all reasonable doubt" level. There seems no question that it is common for men who were probably guilty to walk free in such cases - but that is what should happen in fact happen, if it is just a matter of "probable".

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 03:32 AM

I expect the various women's movements will issue a Fatwah on me, but I have to say nevertheless that women (and men) have a certain responsibility to themselves when out drinking/taking drugs etc.
This isn't the same as victim-blaming, but it's just being prudent.
If one gets blind drunk and goes to bed with someone, one is putting oneself in danger. That doesn't give any man the right to take advantage, but if one is undressed on a bed and acting provocatively, one risks rape or assault by unscrupulous individuals
.
If one wants to avoid such traumatic attacks, it would be better not to become completely inebriated and not to render oneself out of control of a potentially dodgy situation.

If I walked down the High Street at night alone, and with my handbag wide open showing wads of cash, I'd be very silly. It doesn't exonerate the thief, but it makes it much easier for him/her.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:12 AM

It's interesting to see how the two Governments, Britain and Ireland, are reacting to women's claims to being raped
In the light of the Belfast case, The Irish Government have decided to change the Law regarding how complaints are dealt with
In Britain, the head of the Prosecution Service has been severely reprimanded for the number of 'false accusations by women' which have led to 'injustices'
Ah well - back to the Dark Ages!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:31 AM

in this case, the time spent questioning the complainant was unfair in relastion to the time spent questioning the accused, the judge should have intervened.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: John Moulden
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 09:01 AM

Only the jury heard (and saw) all the evidence being given, heard about all the unpleasant communications between the accused and had the opportunity of determining the unfairness or otherwise of the questioning of any witness. With that information the jury took an astonishingly short time to reach a UNANIMOUS verdict. They are the representatives of the people - they represent fully informed and serious public opinion. They found the accused not guilty, overwhelmingly. That is enough for the moment. They must be regarded as innocent. However, there could and should be more.

The judge's directions should be subjected to the scrutiny of the DPP to see if an appeal is justified. The rules of proceedings of courts in such cases should be changed - there should be anonymity for both complainant and accused, those accused should not be named until convicted - the public should be excluded and the press be forbidden to even hint at identities.

The way in which such trials are conducted in Northern Ireland made this a disaster for all concerned. There is little doubt that celebrity, and high profile movements, like #metoo, made this into a disaster for the principals and their families. There should never again be such an unseemly business around any such case.

There are other elements too which can be summed up in one word: respect - for others and oneself. The extent to which sex (we used to call it 'love making') has become casual - appalls me. It is not simply that men (as symbolized by 'rugby players' used as a term of contempt) are misogynistic and brutally opportunistic - depraved: it is that girls are also, in their way, depraved; using sex solely for gratification; where is 'love' in all of this? Where is love in all the shades of 'Grey'? There was love in Lady Chatterly's Lover. This forum is devoted to the love of songs; it should equally defend the ideas of love in all manifestations. The problem for me in this case, is the virtual absence of love on all sides and that is not just a personal failure, not merely a social failure; it is a human failure.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 10:31 AM

Senoufou, you're quite right, people shouldn't get blind drunk.

But you're aiming at the wrong target. Men shouldn't get blind drunk to an extent that it blurs their sense of correct behaviour. In the many, many rape cases I've read about in recent years, the victim was occasionally drunk; the rapists were almost universally very drunk.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 18 - 11:54 AM

The two 'gentlemen players' have had their team contracts withdrawn by an enquiry committee (after a generous golden handshake, of course)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Apr 18 - 01:09 PM

I found the article well written and a bit too clinical and disturbing to finish right now.

In general, in the parts I live in, Alaska and more specifically the city of Anchorage, alcohol is usually included as a factor in car accidents and reported rapes.

For a long time I've held the opinion that alcohol on the part of the actor is an excuse and not a real reason. Most people know what they're doing when they're doing it.

Subject: RE: IrishRugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 18 - 01:27 PM

The problem wasn't the verdict (though it is treated with suspicion by many here), but the behavior of the accused (particularly boastful and incredibly vicios insulting of the woman concerned on line) describing her ordeal as "spit roasting"   
To their credit, the inquiry board felt it wasn't the image they wanted for their game
It wouldn't surprise me if they don't sue the victim - they seem that sort
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:07 AM

On the 1st of April I posted:

"I wonder if either will ever play Rugby again at the level they did and would surmise that their careers and earning potential have been slashed.
They may well be fully paid up arseholes but their careers have probably been ruined by what the judge and jury believe were untruths."

So the untruths have ruined the careers of two men, where is the justice in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:18 AM

"probably been ruined by what the judge and jury believe were untruths."
The jury have been forbidden to talk about the trial and there is an indication that some people are unhappy with the judge's directions
Beside the point Raggy - the players careers ended because of their behaviour outside the trial with their openly declared misogynistic attitude to the woman in question and their brutal boasting of what happened, consensual or not
The inquiry decided that that was not a image suitable image for the game
In fact, the repercussions of the trial have caused the Irish Government to look at how rape is handled and how it should be handled in future

The dismissed players weer given an undisclosed (and redoubtable donkey-chocking) figure as settlement
Wonder how the woman is coping!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:34 AM

Jim, neither you nor I know the full story, the only people who do know the full story were the girl and the players. The judge and jury found in favour of the two men. That is a plain and simple fact. The men have subsequently been found "guilty" by the "court of public opinion" and you like I know that often to be unsound, unreasonable and unfair.


The Court of Public Opinion

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 05:00 AM

As I said Raggy - nothing to do with the verdict - or public opinion for that matter
Both the Rugby authorities and the Irish Government have no idea how the 'public' feel about it - odds on, they believe "she asked for what she got" would be the order of the day in the misogynistic society we live in
It is quite possible the jury of seven men and for women held the same view
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 05:07 AM

"odds on, they believe "she asked for what she got" would be the order of the day in the misogynistic society we live in"

Yeah, right Jim, that's why they terminated the contracts of the two men.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 05:43 AM

Nobody can know what went on during the jury's deliberations. But I expect the 'Court of Public Opinion' was influenced by the despicable (and public) remarks made by these cretins after the trial.
And I prefer to call a physically mature adult female a WOMAN, not a GIRL.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 05:54 AM

"Yeah, right Jim, that's why they terminated the contracts of the two men. "
There's a lot of public pressure here (by women mainly) for the State to clean up its act
I suspect putting bums on seats is more in the mind of the Rugby authorities than the ethics of the thing - this is not the first time rugby players (and other sportsmen) have been involved in shenanigans like this)
Never fear - a leading French Club has made moves so sign up Jackson - a double bonus for describing sex with a drunk young woman "spit roast) when he tweeted it to his mates
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 06:20 AM

It's my age Senoufou, any female aged 19 is a girl to me. But I stand corrected.

Jim, I do not condone the attitudes of these two men towards women, it is abhorrent. However, rightly or wrongly, they were found INNOCENT in law. That should have been the end of the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 06:41 AM

"However, rightly or wrongly, they were found INNOCENT in law. "
I'm not arguing that Rag - I am suggesting that the law regarding rape has long been proven inadequate to protect women - the number of convictions and the fact that the vast majority of rape cases have shown that.
It was the man's public behaviour that is now being questioned - not the verdict
Simple thing you might be able to help me on
Paddy Jackson described the young woman as "a slag"
Can you think of a male equivalent to that term that doesn't express admiration?
"snail - slut, slag, whore, cert, ride, public bicycle, easy lay...... I can think of dozens of female versions - can't for the life of me think of one male version
Maybe it's to early on a Sunday morning yet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 06:47 AM

"unreported rape cases" of course
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 06:48 AM

I honestly think a witch hunt has taken place to damage these two men.

I do not condone their attitudes or their behaviour, as I said earlier it is abhorrent.

You may well be correct in your appraisal of the protection given to woman but I repeat THESE men were found innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 07:44 AM

"Come, friendly bombs, and fall on Slough!
It isn't fit for humans now,
There isn't grass to graze a cow.
Swarm over, Death!"
Oh come on Raggy
They had the best deference money can buy
They had a system that has proven to be heavily flawed in their favour
The jury had a strong male imbalance
They won their case - that is not disputed
The judge said their "good character" should be taken into consideration, yet they tweeted boastfully how they "spit-roasted" a drunk young woman and after the verdict tweeted to the world that she was "a slut"
On no account should they cme out smelling like roses
If they didn't do the crime, they certainly more than represent the behavior that encouraged women to be regarded as "available meat"
They are not victims - they will almost certainly stay at the top of their career and have received financial compensation for their (rightful, in my opinion) dismissal
The only thing to be said in their favour is that they provided the world with a perfect example of how the law is flawed - that is what is now being questioned - not the verdict
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 07:47 AM

Right Jim, and you'd be in the front row with your knitting at public executions too.

I repeat the men were found innocent.

Sheeeesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 08:26 AM

"Right Jim, and you'd be in the front row with your knitting at public executions too."
Why are you taking this line Raggy ?
You don't seem the type
The verdict is in the bag - nobody is trying to change it
What does need change is the way these ordeals are conducted - the only good thing to come out of this squlid affair
Maybe Sen has a point with her "not proven" suggestion
There was no question of the fact that the woman was in no condition to give her consent - even if she did
That certainly would have been taken into consideration elsewhere
The players are not being retried, but are being judged on their public behaviour, which you have agreed was deplorable
Slap on the wrist time, maybe!!
Much better that is is exposed as an example of what is all-too-common in our male-dominated society
How would you react to a public description of one of your family being SPIT-ROASTED
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 09:14 AM

I am in agreement with Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 09:43 AM

"Why are you taking this line Raggy ?
You don't seem the type"

Simply because Raggy lives in the real world and not in a world of selfrighteous Utopia

Your follow up post to Raggy's is a perfect example

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 09:52 AM

"selfrighteous Utopia "
If it's 'Utopian' to expect that women be treated as human beings instead of 'available meat' - guilty as charged m'lud
Feel free to tweet the verdict to whoever you see fir
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 10:39 AM

Jim
If you read my post of 31st of March 4:44 you will see my take and experience of trials.
My experience of life in general, working with younger and older women is that there are Groupies, Trophy-Hunters and Cougars in any large group of women who also see men as "available meat" and the law recognises that

"If it's 'Utopian' to expect that women be treated as human beings instead of 'available meat' - guilty as charged m'lud"
Your words not mine ... i never suggested that and YOU know that Another example of manufactured self righteous posting

BTW Prosecuters are every bit as good at presenting relevant evidence as expensive defence lawyers who dont always win in a legal sense .... ill leave you to fill in after the dots

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 11:30 AM

"Groupies, Trophy-Hunters and Cougars in any large group of women"
Just as there are rapists and predators on women in any group of men
Surely the last few years have proved that women are badly treated in our society, and that it is about time that something was nose about it
Personally, I find your three choices of describing groups of women fairly representative examples of what is wrong with how we regard women - and pretty offensive
Are there male equivalents of those terms, do you think - if not, why not?
As for your special pleading for your experience - I served my time on the male orientated docks, I went drinking in pubs full of men - I even worked as an emergency maintenance electrician in pubs that ran lunchtime strip-shows where young mothers preformed for the baying 'lads' in order to feed their kids - it was a regular thing to see schoolgirls come in and change from their school-uniforms into the skimpy glitter during their dinner-break not a "Groupie, Trophy-Hunter or Cougar" among them - just a few girls trying to supplement their pocket-money
The tweet-talk of those three brave boyoes who escaped jail brought it all flooding back, big time
Sorry Kenny - your mouth gave you away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 12:58 PM

"Sorry Kenny - your mouth gave you away"

Typical Jim .... if you cant counter the argument with logic and facts shoot the messenger!

Its not what YOU say its what YOU don't say
Have you served on Juries or been a witness for prosecution or defence or have you just read about it?
Have you worked with large groups of women and heard their banter.
Do you know guys who have been bottle raped by groups of women in clothing factories and no one ever charged?
Did you refuse to work in the strip clubs or did you take the "queens shilling"
Your previous point about the mix of juries is irrevelent unless the jurors have agendas. Who are you to say that if the women on that jury fervently disagreed with the verdict they would not have swayed the jury. Juries in my experience deal with the evidence presented Are you inferring that the jury was corrupt and can you justify your comments? Or are you sounding off through habit?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 01:39 PM

" if you cant counter the argument with logic and facts shoot the messenger!"
You haven't attempted to respond to one single point of mine about the situation of women in our society
Why should I respond to a male chauvenist pig who denigrates women with terms like "Groupies, Trophy-Hunters and Cougars"
Good job this (whatever insulting term you chose to insult her humanity) wasn't black - you might have been able to add a little colour to your description.
This isn't about Juries having agendas, but about society in general (personalities in particular) having been using their position to gain sexual favours from women   
News of Harvey Weinstein et all doesn't seem to have reached your part of the world yet
I don't know whether these men fall into that category but their behaviour towards this woman (and others) makes it highly likely they do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 01:56 PM

I'm minded of this song, which possibly puts another perspective on the issue.

Stan Rogers

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. It really isn't all one sided.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 02:38 PM

Sorry Raggy, that really will not do. By posting that link you are trivialising the issue. And the issue is the totally unacceptable attitudes and behaviour towards women of a certain section of young(ish) British (and maybe also Irish) males. Its not the majority. Its not the majority even of rugby players. But any of us who have spent any time in male oriented environments, such as sports clubs, know that these attitudes exist. And in the 21st century it really isn't on. And we are complicit if we tolerate such attitudes, and such behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 02:49 PM

Jim
I don't respond to things I agree with, so why do you put down things I havnt said.
I only put down what I have seen and experienced as you do
Why do you resort to attempted unfounded insults instead of answering ANY of the questions I asked you?
You have a penchant for giving the answers to questions no one asked and adding attempted insults, That unfortunately means that when you do folks on here say Jims ranting again and any relevant points are ignored.

Good one Raggy a bit of humour is appreciated
I was looking for the old song sung by Allan Breeze of the Billy Cotton band show which contained the lines "ive been thrown out of better joints than this ......." but couldn't find it on YouTube but I get your drift

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 03:12 PM

"Why do you resort to attempted unfounded insults instead of answering ANY of the questions I asked you?"
I responded to your description of women which I found offensive
If you wish to get your message across, make it clearer and don't use stereotyping language
I suggest that, in the atmosphere that prevails today, any verdict in a rape trial needs to be scrutinised carefully
It is estimated that 80% of rapes in Britain go unreported
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9134799/Sexual-assault-survey-80-of-women-dont-report-rape-or-sexual-assault-survey-claims.html
Only between 2 and 6 percent of rape allegations are proved to be false
HERE
Language like yours really doesn't help - sorry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 03:56 PM

Jim
I wholeheartedly agree that rape is a serious matter no matter which gender is the victim.
The description I used were all given to me by women in conversation, I had to have the Cougar one explained to me.
Anonymity for victims is a step in the right direction plus suitable and readily available support for victims is essential and as far as know access to Specialist Doctors is still available, I was part of the access chain and have had first hand experience of dealing sympathetically with victims. As an instance, in our case no mention of the the identity or cntact details of the victim was made in any paperwork involved and any notes made locally destroyed.
The police have a very difficult job in establishing suitable evidence for prosecution however to put things in perspective some prosecutions have to take place in cases where the evidence is inconclusive where high profile people are involved so that a jury and counsel can decide if there was in fact an offence committed.
Trial by media solves nothing!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:09 PM

The whole problem is the acceptance by courts of the defence of consent without proof. In my view, if the defence of the accused is consent then the burden of proof should be reversed. Consent should need to be proven, not its absence proven. I believe that in some countries a more liberal interpretation of consent holds.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:09 PM

imo it is important for all concerned to be anymous until the case is proven. however their tweets indicate that they treat women with dis respect if i was a juror that would influence my verdict.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:24 PM

A cougar is a mature woman who seeks liasons with younger men. Note the word seeks, not forces. That is completely irrelevant when we are discussing rape, except perhaps in the context of a teacher-pupil relationship.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 07:09 PM

Raggy, speaking of Stan Rogers:

For every: "You can't stay here" there's far more than one "Harris and the Mare".

Note the innate humanity in any of Stan Rogers' works. Not to be found in this case, except for the effort of Mr. Harrison, who seemed to sense the troubled situation between his friends and this young girl and rose somewhat above the poor behavior of the former.

Not much good behavior on the part of most, nor here either

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 03:14 AM

What has been ignored in all these arguments is that, in Ireland at least, this has moved on from an accusation and trial of rape to a mucxh, much wider issue
Whether the accused were guilty or not is immaterial - as far as I am concerned they were a bunch of overprinted thugs who took advantage of their position by boasting about their 'conquest' and denigrating the woman they had 'conquered'
The immediate reaction here was to get women out on the streets in their thousands to protest - not at the verdict but how women are treated in general, especially regarding rape
It became part of the larger movement which really started with Savile and co and has now become a world-wide campaign to recognise that the use of privilege to obtain sexual gratification is a major social problem
The Irish Government, to their credit, have agreed to examine the laws and practices regarding accusations of rape
This shouldn't be about defending or condemning a bunch of boorish celebrity louts - it needs to be put in a wider context
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 03:32 AM

You're quite right Jim in what you say. It's a much wider issue than this one court case.

Among many things, it's about a misplaced sense of entitlement due to a variety of forms of power. Physical strength, financial superiority, social position and so on. Nothing, however, gives any human being the right to use/exploit another in a sexual (or any other) way.

Weaker people (and I'm not distinguishing them by their sex) should be protected and defended. Abusers of their own power should be brought to book and the whole of modern society should rethink and re-adjust their attitudes. Despicable public comments ought to be challenged.

I'm heartened by recent movements for change, and have hopes that in time we will look back on this sort of entitled climate with disgust.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:05 AM

Jim, Sen - wise words, spoken by good and decent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: John Moulden
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:09 AM

I'm unhappy about the tone of a good deal of the debate here. Nobody denies that some young men, as a result of their upbringing, or other factors, develop a sense of entitlement. Nobody denies that the texts and messages that passed between these young men were abhorrent. But there is a sense in some of the conversation of condemnation solely because these were professional rugby players. I would like to hear a more carefully worded discussion of the nature of the sex drives of men and women, the ways in which, it is evident, these are expressed in an extreme fashion by couples and groups, especially among young people. It seems to me that there are some, male and female, who debase themselves in pursuit of gratification.
That's one debate; there are others - the one about power, for example - but there's another about making oneself available for sex to gain some advantage; there's a lack of scruple on all sides.
How about a debate on the concept of rape; can it ever be clear cut?
And then, there is the court system, its adversarial nature and lawyers playing to the gallery. It would be much better if there was no gallery, no reporting until after a guilty verdict. And, in my book,there is a case for teaching, not merely respect for others but respect for oneself.
And, just to make things clear; I'm unhappy, personally, about the men's treatment; the only thing that is clear is that they made offensive remarks, not expecting them to be publicised; I think their punishment has been disproportionate; scapegoats for the sins of an entire society that hasn't yet balanced its attitudes to sexuality, consent or social difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:30 AM

Hi John
The buck has to stop somewhere - may as well be here as anywhere else
The question of how rape and abuse scandals are being handled has even spread as far as the Irish Boy Scout Movement - a real cleaning of the Augean Stables, it would seem
Jim Carroll
An interesting article from this morning's Irish Times sums it up pretty well for me

INTERNATIONAL PLAYERS SHOULD SERVE AS SALUTARY WARNING
Gerry Thornley Analysis

Crude WhatsApp messages will follow players wherever they go
No less than other celebrities, be they sporting or otherwise, Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding enjoyed some of the trappings and attention that came with their status as international rugby players - but they have also now discovered that there are many downsides to this high profile.
Uppermost among these was the extent to which every sordid detail of the Belfast rape trial was consumed by the public.
Impart, this reflected the voracious appetite for those sordid details, but more than anything, the fact the public was so intrigued emanated from Jackson and Olding being Irish rugby internationals.
That the trial was held in the jurisdiction of Northern Ireland, rather than the Republic of Ireland, also meant the names of the four accused young men could be revealed.

TEXT MESSAGES
Addressing text messages sent by Olding to friends after the events of the night in question, boasting about “spit-roasting”, his counsel, Frank O’Donoghue QC said they were nothing but “a titillating sideshow and they have no evidential value in relation to my client in this case”. He said Mr Olding was simply “bragging in the privacy of his own phone”.
They may have been a titillating sideshow in relation to the criminal case, and they may have been exchanged in the privacy of Olding’s and others’ own phones, but once they were made public it was clear their careers in Irish rugby were over.
With their status as Ulster and Irish players came responsibilities, as well as the profile and trappings, and they abrogated theirs.

LESS FORGIVING
On March 28th, Jackson (26) and Olding (25) were found not guilty of raping the same woman at a house party at Jackson’s south Belfast home in June 2016.
Jackson was also cleared of sexual assault.
But in the media and social media coverage that followed, that almost became an irrele¬vance.
As well as there being less privacy in the world nowadays, society has become less forgiving.
On the steps outside the Laganside courthouse, Jackson’s lawyer said the Ulster and Ireland outhalf s main priority was now to return to work. “That means getting back on the rugby pitch and representing his province and his country. ”
This may have been some kind of bargaining ploy in advance of Ulster and the IRFU coming to the view that he and Olding would not return to work with them, or alternatively it could reveal how Jackson, Olding and their advisers were unaware as to the extent of the revulsion over those WhatsApp text messages,

REGRETFUL TONE
Whereas Olding had immediately adopted a more apologetic and regretful tone on those same steps that day, 10 days later Jackson issued a statement apologising “unreservedly” for engaging in “degrading and offensive” WhatsApp conversations.
By then, though, the Ulster and IRFU review was already nearing a conclusion, and in truth the players’ fate had assuredly already been sealed.
Jackson was reckoned to be paid somewhere in the region of €400, 000-€500, 000, with Olding understood to be on considerably less.
It is likely that some compensation was agreed in revoking their contracts, but they have paid a heavy price, and not just financially.
Their careers with Ulster and Ireland are over, and the end was swift. A brief, three-paragraph statement issued by Ulster Rugby and the IRFU said their contracts, which had been due to run until June 2019, had been “revoked”.
This followed a review conducted by Ulster Rugby and the IRFU, reputedly containing two unidentified people from each body. Under the terms of a standard IRFU contract, the union reserves the right to “summarily terminate this agreement and dismiss the player from its employment if the player is guilty of gross misconduct, or has committed a serious breach of the terms of this agreement, or any of the IRFU’s policies, codes and regulations notified to the player”.

DISREPUTE
Specifically, this incorporates “being guilty of any form of conduct which brings the game into disrepute”. Ultimately, while the players have been acquitted of all criminal charges, their contracts háve been revoked under the code of conduct.
Whether or not their contracts should have been terminated has polarised opinion, particularly in Ulster.
There have been petitions
which both opposed and supported the players being allowed to renew their careers with Ulster, as well as contrast¬ing advertisements in the Belfast Telegraph.
Across the road from the main entrance to the Kingspan Stadium on Mount Merrion Avenue before Ulster’s 8-0 Guinness Prol4 win against the Ospreys on Friday night, about 250 people took part in a demonstration entitled Stamp Out Misogyny at Ulster Rugby, which was organised by the Belfast Feminist Network.
Inside the ground there were no counter-protest placards backing the players, although one young girl wore a T-shirt with the words “I support Paddy Jackson”.
It is highly likely that Vodafone, one of the Irish team’s main sponsors, or Kingspan or Bank of Ireland, would have taken a very dim view of Jackson and Olding being permitted to renew their playing careers with the province.
Bank of Ireland, which has sponsored Ulster for 20 years, expressed its disquiet directly to the province and publicly earlier this week.

CRUDE MESSAGES
Where to now for Jackson and Olding? Which club owners in England or France or elsewhere will want to take them on now?
They may have issued unreserved apologies and expressed their remorse, but those crude, derogatory and disrespectful text messages will follow them wherever they Ultimately, despite the acquittal, there have been no winners in this terrible story.
Then again, the whole affair can only prompt the IRFU and its four provinces, not least its academies, to better educate their players.
The union and the provinces have a duty to do so, even more so now, and pointedly their statement in confirming the contracts of Jackson and Olding have been revoked also vowed “to conduct an in-depth review of existing structures and educational programmes”.
And ultimately of this whole sorry story serves as a salutary warning to all young players not to treat young women in a misogynistic or derogatory way, then some good will at least have come from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:49 AM

A balanced and thoughtful piece of Journalism by Gerry Thornley

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 03:36 AM

If one wants to avoid such traumatic attacks, it would be better not to become completely inebriated and not to render oneself out of control of a potentially dodgy situation.

I agree with the sentiment, Sen, but on the other hand people should be able to get wasted if they so desire without the fear of being raped. But we are now talking morality rather than law. The world would be a much better place if people were treated are equals rather than chattels.

I have not really followed the case but I understand that the complainant was incapable of providing consent. That being the case the men should not have taken advantage, but they did. Maybe they were incapable of reason at the time as well. Perhaps the verdict was correct in law but still immoral so the result reflected this. they have kept their freedom but lost their standing and their careers.

Complicated issues and one, as has been said, we will never know the full truth of.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 07:40 AM

Many many years ago, in my voluntary capacity of ex-offenders mentor, I was once asked by the Police to assist in the case of a young lass who had accused a lad of having raped her. They needed a female independent person to be present, so I agreed. The woman ( a sex-worker) had been in prison for drug-related offences, and was mentally rather unwell. Her mother was an alcoholic, had little contact with her, and was in no fit state to sit with her daughter. The Police were very kind to her and did everything correctly (samples, clothing put into sealed bags, statement and so on)

I was left to sit with the woman while admin was being completed, and she suddenly confessed to me that she'd made it all up. I kept very calm, took her hand and gently asked her to talk a bit more. It was actually all untrue, and she wanted to stop the procedure. I had to fetch the female Police officer and quietly tell her what had been said. I couldn't be sure if the allegations were true but the victim was afraid to continue, or if it was indeed a fabrication.

Meanwhile, the Police had gone to the lad's place of work and arrested him (in front of all his workmates) He was apparently in tears with the shock.
The outcome was that the charges were dropped, and the woman was sectioned under the Mental Health Act; she was very unwell, and I visited her later in the mental hospital.

I'm relating all this because it can be that some accounts of 'rape' may not be entirely the true facts. Or that there were no clear boundaries from either side. And imagine the trauma of that lad arrested in such a fashion. I actually felt very sorry for both of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 07:49 AM

I should add that after her discharge from hospital, the poor woman was found in her bedsit with a heroin needle still in her arm. She'd been dead for some time. The Police officer who let me know felt, as I did, that there was nothing anyone could have done, as heroin addicts often either overdose or inject bad stuff and their lives suddenly end.

It can be a very sad and cruel world out there...

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 10:20 AM

Sems like this case has started to change things big-time with the re-examination of how accusations of rape are dealt with - seems something good might have come out of something bad
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 12:41 PM

Let's hope so Jim. It's a crime that is extremely difficult to deal with and prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' as consent may/may not have been given, or understood to have been given. Drink/drugs may play their part, but nevertheless there is no excuse for anyone taking advantage of a woman who is in no fit state to agree to/refuse sex.

In this case, the most infuriating thing is the appalling attitude of the protagonists to the woman concerned after the case was concluded. No basic dignity or respect afforded at all.
It's this I find the most disturbing.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Rugby players rape case
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 01:26 PM

"Let's hope so Jim."
Amen to that
Jim