BS: On the cause of Famines

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 06:51 PM

I do find it was a little strange that people can be having a reasonable exchange when someone posts:

"He is accused of souperism but it seems the Catholic hierachy were a bunch of tossers as well"

Apart from the fact they cannot spell HIERARCHY the tone of their post is aggressive describing the catholic church, or their representatives, as "a bunch of tossers" is not conducive to restrained debate.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: mg
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 07:38 PM

catholics were not entirely innocent. they were forbidden in dingle to provide any transport and i believe to sell anything to people on the blasket islands..

anyway, this is where my family is from and where i am visiting this week.

my gggf was the middle man for lord ventry. i have seen the estate.

http://myhome.iolfree.ie/~diseart/bredaschnell/Thomas%20Townsend%20Aramberg%20-%201786%20-%201868%203rd%20Baron%20Ventry.htm

http://myhome.iolfree.ie/~diseart/bredaschnell/Thomas%20Townsend%20Aramberg%20-%201786%20-%201868%203rd%20Baron%20Ventry.htm

here is another song
there was a young lady garvey said to be the prettiest girl in dunquin by peig sayers. assumed to be a relative. now in st. gabnait's?? churchyard in dunquin (st. c. is in ventry) there is a gravestone of a bridget sullivan, put up fairly recently. it says she was the prettiest girl in the town, and now she would never be hungry again. someone, maybe family, put up a stone a long time after. I'm forgetting bits of it. will amend later.

once there were fishes who swam to our shore
once there was flax and potatoes galore
and the finest of neighbors our own kith and kin
such as young nora garvey the pride of dunquin

she made the fine butter and spun the fine wool
ah those were the days when our bellies were full
forget

we prayed that lord ventry would build us a boat
so strong and substantial to keep us afloat
we would sail to a port where they let irish in
t'would have saved nora garvey the pride of dunquin

the boat was not built and the ship never sailled
and we watched our young nora grow famished and pale
our fine strapping maiden
farewell nora garvey the pride of dunquin

in st. catherine's churchyard we said prayers for her soul
not a man had the strength for to dig her a hole
there's a                where a rock cairn had been
rest in peace nora garvey the pride of dunquin

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: mg
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 07:42 PM

THE PRIDE OF DUNQUIN

Once we had fishes that swam to our shore
Once we had flax and potatoes galore
And the kindest of neighbors our own kith and kin
Such as young Nora Garvey the pride of Dunquin

She made the fine butter and spun the fine wool
Ah those were the days when our bellies were full
The likes of her beauty we will not see again
Sweet Nora Garvey the pride of Dunquin

We prayed that Lord Ventry would build us a boat
So strong and substantial to keep us afloat
We would sail to a port where they let Irish in
Twould have saved Nora Garvey the pride of Dunquin

But the boat was not built and the ship did not sail
And we watched our young Nora grow feeble and pale
Our fine strapping maiden grew famished and thin
Farewell Nora Garvey the pride of Dunquin

In St. Catherine’s churchyard we said prayers for her soul
Not a man had the strength for to dig her a hole
There’s a new Celtic cross where a rock cairn had been
Rest in peace Nora Garvey the pride of Dunquin

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 07:48 PM

mg, no one has suggested the catholic church was blameless, however after decades of subjugation they were perhaps not best placed to assist.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 04:39 AM

"Apart from the fact they cannot spell HIERARCHY"

Oh dear!

rule in arguments: If you're losing, start correcting their grammar. if they have correct grammar, correct their spelling.

You cannot correct your mistakes by pointing out the mistakes of others

When you blame and criticize others, you are avoiding some truth about
yourself

Try this approach instead

Mistakes are the stepping stones to learning!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:08 AM

So no response to the observation that you refered to the catholic church as a "bunch of tossers"

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:48 AM

If you read the link I supplied the answer would be in front of you.
You know you can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink.


Here yer go. "2nd attempt". Would you like it displayed in 4 foot fluorescents as well?

Archbishop McHale of Tuam descended on the island with 13 priests and a band bearing banners reading “Down With the Schismatics!” Their instructions to the faithful regarding apostates were to “scald them, hunt them, shout after them, persecute them to death and pull their houses down over their heads“.

I think to merely call them tossers shows remarkable restraint.!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:00 AM

Iains, you started that post by stating that "I do not know how accurate the link below is...................."

You seem to have had a "road to Damascus" moment and now are prepared to argue for it's complete veracity.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:45 AM

Raggy.... if you look at the whole site as I did as a matter of interest it states the aims of the site and doesn't at first glances appear to be a hidden agenda site
In the section entitled "About this site" you will find statement
"
"The data provided on this website has been gathered from a wide variety of sources, and has been checked for accuracy. Every effort has been made to present the information without infringing the rights of others."

Ill be interested to hear your comments.

Id also be interested to view your general comments on the link I got by mistake when looking for Neagle instead of Nagle https://archive.org/stream/priestsandpeople00mccauoft/priestsandpeople00mccauoft_djvu.txt

I t may take while to get a readable format

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 07:03 AM

The link should be https://archive.org/details/priestsandpeople00mccauoft
and is retitled from my original post

"From: Kenny B - PM
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:34 PM

Raggy is this what you were referring .. Googled result of "Edward Neagles proselytising on Achill Island, County Mayo" "

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 07:16 AM

Rag,
describing the catholic church, or their representatives, as "a bunch of tossers" is not conducive to restrained debate.

You have never objected to Jim deriding them, as he frequently has.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 07:26 AM

I would like to point out I was referring to Archbishop McHale of Tuam
and his band of merry men as tossers, not the entire church. For some of us, that is a vital distinction.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 09:56 AM

Kenny, I have a couple of books about Achill and it's history back home in Ireland. I'll post their titles next week.

Fabulous place though !

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 02:12 PM

Looks an enchanting and unspoiled place with breathtaking views

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 07:11 PM

I've been assembling photos from online views of Skellig Michael and they are hypnotizing. If I go back to Eire I'll surely pay a visit.

Meanwhile, individual experiences run the gamut and coming up with broadbrush slams at either Catholic or Protestant perfidy re: the Irish famine is not a good fit IMO in this venue. I've been told that in the Irish famine about 1 million died and 1 million emigrated. Seems a right horror no matter how we break down the various treatments people received.

I remember reading in the NYTimes obit column about a Jewish man who attended a Protestant college but was not allowed to graduate. They said they only graduated Protestants. They why he asked did you let me matriculate here? Because we thought you'd have converted by now was the reply. Not exactly nice treatment, and far from starvation, but also far from a typical experience.

As for how Irish Catholic institutions treated Irish Catholics, there is a world of information on the subject, which is a significant one all its own self. I've seen "Spotlight" and "Philomena" and they are both excellent films. But they are not history.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 04:06 AM

Unfortunately religion is hopelessly entwined in Irish History and only in recent decades have the Catholic shackles visibly loosened.
Where I am there is still an undercurrent of animosity based on the feeling that the Protestants have the better farmland. It may be low key and well hidden, yet still the odd comment is heard. Where land is held for generations, memories are long. Sometimes somethings are best forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 11:06 AM

"Hoops Mr Carroll, Hoops !!!! :"
More from our resident defender of The Jewish People who can't bring himself around to condemning extreme antisemitism by a friend
I'll consider what you have to say in the light of your overwhelming integrty!
As far as souperism is concerned - this remains one of the most shameful activities of the famine - well documented and certainly well retained in local history
Whenever I drive into town here I pass what is still referred to as "Balls's School" (now a car repair and tyre depot)
It is a monument to the practice of demanding that families rejected their religion for a bowl of soup for their children
Whne we got to know some of our singers closely they told us the stories of members of their families being pressured in order that their children were fed the megre, watery soup on offer (Captain Balls was a very devout ex-English army officer who owned the school)
The memory is retained right into the present generation
I was talking to a young woman a few years ago about a singer friend from outside the county - she asked how the name was spelt
When I told her, she said, "Oh, they must have taken the soup!"
Back later, when I've shaken the dust of Connemara off my shoes.
Much to say - especially on religion
To put Keith's dishonesty into context - I have no objection to the church per-se
I detest those within the church to rape children and I detest more the hierarchy who facilitated those rapes by covering them up and in doing so, allowing the rapists to continue having access to children
I have always believed religion and politics are a toxic mix
Having said this - I would be devastated on behalf of friends, neighbours and family if these practices destroyed the church - as far as I'm concerned, common-sense will eventually do that   
Jim Carroll
By the way Keith
"Whenever other contributors challenge Jim's views, he drops the subject"
I never drop a subject when challenged (unlike those like you who are only capable of hit-and-run postings)
I nor only attempt to substantiate my arguments but I enjoy doing so - it often takes me back to my books to check
You chose to post theses smears behind my back when I had obviously stopped posting - you often do (usually on threads I am not involved in)
'Bout time we struck a medal for people who behave like you (The Yellow Ribbon has a nice ring to it)
(no intention of taking up this or anything up with you at length

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 11:51 AM

"Philomena" and they are both excellent films. But they are not history."
No - they are not, but both are based firmly on a tiny piece of what happened, as did Magdalene Sisters, The Boys of St Vincents and Song for a Raggy Boy
In order to have given a clear, realistic picture of what went on would have put the films in the "extremly pornographic and violent" category
MEA MAXIMA CULPA didn't need a script or actors to show hwat happened in America and how the church handles it
It has yet to be dealt with at this level on this side of the pond
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 11:55 AM

Trust little jimmie to pop up and introduce Jews into yet another thread. Can some king moderator delete his posts before he destroys yet another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 12:21 PM

“Catholic shackles visibly loosened.”
What an incredible partisan statement !!!
Centuries of English rule guaranteed that religion would be a crucial part of Irish history
The dissolution of the Monasteries, outlawing of the Catholic religion, the persecution and execution of priests guaranteed the Church the support of the people
Ireland is scattered with “Mass Rocks” where Catholics were forced to practice their religion secretly – two of them within a half-hours drive of my home.
Britain forced a partition based on giving Ireland Independence of the basis there being a six county state for Protestants – their original intention of a nine-county state (the whole of Ulster) was hastily abandoned when somebody did the math and realised that it would produce a Catholic majority.
The constitution of the sic counties was based on religion – giving the land-owning protestants the vote and deprive the Catholic third of the population of a say in their lives
The ant- Catholic riots, the boycott of Catholic businesses and trades and the refusal of many firms to employ Catholics acted as a daily and very visible wedge between the two communities as have the religion based triumphalist marches, which even spread to British cities like Glasgow and Liverpool
Members of my family fled Derry in the 1950s when their home was burned down by Protestant mobs objecting to “having to live next door to “Taigues”   
No so long ago Catholic schoolchildren were forced to take a different and much longer rout to school because of howling and threatening mobs
It was extreme Protestanint who introduced the gun into twenty century Irish politics and the first shots of the last “Troubles” were fired by Loyalist murderous thugs
“Catholic shackles” – what part of the Planet Zog do you live on Iains?
All religions have their own brand of chains
Jim Carroll
" Can some king moderator "
Emperor Joe perhaps
Grow up for crying out loud - haven'y toy learned your lesson yet?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 01:13 PM

Iains
If you try to interfere with what I say once again it will be your arse that (hopefully) the moderator kicks
"ho the fuck do you think you are Ian Paisley?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 02:45 PM

And of course the 5 million plus starved Ukrainians were just a sign of bad bureaucracy. No politics and no religion there. And Stalin was just doing the best he knew how!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 02:59 PM

"And of course the 5 million plus starved Ukrainians were just a sign of bad bureaucracy. "
Beaten heads down by what happened before that event and what has happened since
Like Keith's antisemitism - you choose not to see that either
None of this has anything to do with religion of course, unless you wish to attribute his behaviour to his Jesuit training - some have!
I hope you are not listing a claim that I have ever supported Stalin in any way shape or form to your rapidly growing list of porkies!
Wouldn't put it it past you - honesty doesn't seem to be one of your stronger points
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 04:05 PM

"Hoops Mr Carroll, Hoops !!!! :"

"More from our resident defender of The Jewish People who can't bring himself around to condemning extreme antisemitism by a friend"

Jim, Am I reading this wrong or have you got your wires crossed?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 04:09 PM

""ho the fuck do you think you are Ian Paisley?"

No just extremely happy I am not a tunnel visioned, constantly swearing dinosaur like you.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 07:17 PM

"No just extremely happy I am not a tunnel visioned, constantly swearing dinosaur like you."
No - you are just mindlessly abusive
Sorry - not following you Rag
This no-brain accuses me of being a Jew-hater, yoet when he is presented with w blow-by-blow account of Keith defending wartime antisemitism of the extreme kind (at the time the Jewish People were being made ready for mass extermination) he refuses to comment on it, stupidly claiming he didn't understand it
His priorities are plain and the interests of the Jewish People don't come into them
What's the problem?
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 07:29 PM

JC:

You are no clearer now than in the posts I earnestly urged you to explicate (in another thread, no less). Now you are bringing it into this thread and labeling me all sorts of things with no justification. And when I bring up a valid famine you pay it short shrift with no attempt to marshal an argument.

You are a thread abuser here.

And I DO think you are a Stalin fanboy.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 08:37 PM

"You are no clearer now than in the posts I earnestly urged you to explicate"
Sorry - I don't believe a word of this
Keith defended wartime fascism by describing it as illogical and went on to compare a song written by one of the most virulent of wartime fascists as as harmless as the theme tune from Dad's Army
The poem I put up openly calls fro the extermination of the Jewish people - a year or so before it actually took place
I described him doing so to you - I had no need - I had already put up the two postings unedited, exactly as they had been posted
There is nothing to misunderstand - they are there on full view yet still you claim not to understand them
You appear to have an nasty dose of voluntary dyslexia
"And I DO think you are a Stalin fanboy."
More evidence of your inability or reluctance to read what I have written
You have had every chance to explain your refusal to condemn this horror and to prove your claims about my beliefs
You haven't so far and I very much doubt if you will now
Let's see - shall we!!
"You are a thread abuser here."
I have put up my arguments with the facts I have at hand - all checkable and all open to argument - you offer none - only personal abuse
that's all you and your friend, Bobad, Iains and Keith appear to be capable of
I heve never had a thread closed - nor have I ever been warned of by behaviour
You want to prove me wrone - provide contrary evidence and disprove what I have said - it really never gets any more difficult that that - that's what we are supposed to be here for
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 08:51 PM

JC just writted:

I heve never had a thread closed - nor have I ever been warned of by behaviour

May I draw your attention to the late GAZA thread which was closed upon a long diatribe from you of everybody's anti-Jewish agenda but yourself. You were warned by your threadmates if no one else. Once again, your main problem seems to be that you do not realize this is not supposed to be about yourself. Pretty shameful in a thread about starving people.

I call your pants to be requiring an extinguisher.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 08:55 PM

The Gaza thread was closed because I asked a moderator to close it. Your hubris is sorely misplaced. Nighty night, Robo.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:19 PM

Well, duh. No condescension THERE. And that had no relation to yourself and JC? Methinks this is confirmation FWIW.
Just noticed that the Keith & Bob thread was closed under similar circumstances. Similar requosts?

This is why we can't have nice things!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:24 PM

"May I draw your attention to the late GAZA thread which was closed upon a long diatribe from you of everybody's anti-Jewish agenda but yourself"
No it was not - my "diatribe" was totally on subject and it was not a diatribe - it was an argument - unlike the stream of abuse you and your friends specialise in
I did not introduce the subject of antisemitism to this thread as you suggest - Beareded Bruce did when he (wrongly) accused Ireland of being such unjustly, by the way) and (equally unjustly) suggested that I supported the IRA
I didn't respond at the time, but your continual evasive abuse gave me the opportunity to clear up both Bruce's point and your accusation of my antisemitism by pointing out your own (still no response from you)
For the sake of this discussion I suggest we leave it there
If you have any reply to the points I have made - to anything - feel free to give it (preferably without abuse)
Otherwise, I suggest you leave this thread and leave me with my opinions of you before hey sink any lower than they already are
You have my arguments of famines, how I believed they were manipulated by Empires and how they compare to what else was happening when they occurred - let's see how you do with them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:38 PM

Wow, sour grapes turning to sour vinegar. My request to the mod had nothing to do with Jim, and Jim and I almost never communicate in private, and we haven't done for a very long time. Tell you what: take a look back at the arse-end of that thread then read my message to the mod (who I won't identify):


"I don't s'pose you'd consider shutting down that horrible Gaza thread? It's just a handful
of nasty people exploiting the place in order to spout their bile and it's doing less than
nothing for the tenor of the place.

Cheers

Steve"

There. Chapter and verse. Happy now, Robo?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:40 PM

Whatever "Keith and Bob" thread closure you're referring to has nowt to do with me.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:49 PM

Jom/SS:

Pot, Kettle. You team up, gang up, get into an abusive mode, then if things don't go your way one of you can get the thread closed, the other can drag the argument to an UNRELATED thread, and the abuse can continue.

You guys are bullies. Ain't no lower form of life because you're cowards as well.

- - -

Getting back to the Soviet caused famine in Ukraine. I've linked to sources on this way back on 5 April. Actual books.

You have chosen as sources unreliable narrators like John Reed and forgossakes you've actually referenced Reilly Ace of Spies!

You really need to understand the difference between popular writings BBC entertainment and history. Otherwise someone will start a thread on Roman history and you'll be all up in there about what you saw on 'I, Claudius'!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 04:12 AM

Liar Jim,
Keith defended wartime fascism by describing it as illogical

You lie again Jim.
If you are not a filthy liar quote me ever defending fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 04:17 AM

Enough of this - you have just given away your your reason for being here which has nothing whatever to do with the debates that take place
JOM
Teribus's pathetic "insulting" name for me (which I grew rather fond of as an indication that he was desperately running out of ideas)
If this is is not a clue to your identity, it is a clear indication of where you are coming from
I'm not here to exchange insults with disaffected extremist right-wingers who can't raise themselves above the level of personal insulting and accuse others of exactly what motivated them - in one particular case, the recurring theme of antisemitism - big-time!
If you are not here to debate famines and their causes but rather, to turn these discussions into soapboxes for hatefests, you really need to go and let those ho genuinely wish to swap ideas get on with it

On the subject in hand - you have obviously not read John Reeds book and, until you have, you are not qualified to comment on it, let alone, condemn it out of hand
Reed was the only western eye-witness to have been present during the Russian Revolution and reported on it extensively
His account, far from being a propaganda exercise, was a detailed and well-documented account of a world shattering event - not a large book by any means, but crammed full of information of the events surrounding the revolution
There are other books from that time, - I've read some of them - but none contain such detail, particularly the differing debates
Far from being the work of a Soviet "dupe", it was disproved of highly by Stalin's regime - your "dupe" comes straight from the most dark period of our history when everything was being thrown at The Soviet Union and when Hitler was regarded as "a bulwark against Bolshevism" by western leaders, including Churchill
If Reed's account is "unreliable" - you need to show why it was; perhaps a good start might be to read it! - probably a ridiculous suggestion as far as you are concerned - books don't appear to be your thing: there is little evidence that they are in any of your arguments.

I have given what I know of the Irish Famine - it has been a life-long interest of mine as it is part of my own family history
It was, as far as I am concerned, a natural disaster deliberately manipulated, first by absentee English landlords to increase their land-ownings though mass evictions, and by English politicians to solve a centuries-old political 'Irish Problem'

As it was, on examination the 'natural disaster' aspect of the Famine is directly traceable back to farming methods forced on the Irish peasantry to fulfill Ireland's role in the British Empire as "Britannia's Breadbasket" - the popular name for Ireland at the time.
This led to farming families having to rely on one type of potato - the "LUMPER" - when that failed the source of nourishment of the Irish people disappeared and, despite the fact that there was four times the amount of food available to feed the Irish, they starved in their millions and as many were forced to emigrate - ethnic cleansing big-time.   

Had the Irish Famine occurred in , say the Midlands or the North of England and had been handled in the manner it was in Ireland, it would have brought about mass unrest, even revolution, as it did here
All the changes that have taken place since the middle of the nineteenth century are directly traceable back to what happened during and immediately following 'The Great Hunger'   

Regarding Famines in general - I came across this fascinating statement publicising a study on twentieth famines by a researcher for the INSTITUTE of DEVELOPMENT STUDIES
"The Institute of Development Studies (IDS) is a leading global institution for development research, teaching and learning, and impact and communications, based at the University of Sussex." hardly a politically-driven propaganda set-up
I haven't read the paper, but the introduction is enough to suggest that though famines are usually caused by natural phenomena, given the political and social will, they are well withing in grasp of governments to deal with the worst effects of them
In my opinion, in today's world that will has never existed, nor will it until the necessities of life are treated as a human right rather than a source of profit
You want to debate Famines - open your tightly -closed, aganda driven minds and do so - without the personal insults
Jim Carroll
Famine in the Twentieth Century Devereux, S., IDS Working Paper 105
Publisher IDS
More than 70 million people died in famines in the twentieth century. Stephen Devereux has compiled data from over 30 major famines and has assessed ,the success of some parts of the world, notably China, the Soviet Union, India and Bangladesh in apparently eradicating mass mortality food crises.
He contrasts this with the experience of sub-Saharan Africa, where famines triggered by the relationship between drought and civil war have become endemic since the late 1960s.
Devereux argues that if famine is to be eradicated during the twenty-first century, it requires not only technical capacity in terms of food production and distribution, but also substantially more political will, at national and international levels, than has been seen to date.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 04:27 AM

"If you are not a filthy liar quote me ever defending fascism."
I have done Keith
Describing a song written by an English Facsits calling for Jews to be exterminated when you were fully aware that six million of them had been just tat, as "a silly song" is as "defending" as it gets - that's what you did and that's what Robo has defended with his refusal to comment - two birds with one stone, as far as I'm concerned
Lie - down - your're dead as far as credibility goes Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 05:27 AM

"two birds with one stone, as far as I'm concerned"
Sorry correction - that should be "four birds with one stone - Keith (she supporter of wartime fascism) and Robomatic, Bobad and Bearded Bruce - all of whom were sked to comment - Robo lied and pretended not to understand, and is still doing so, the other pair ignored a request to comment
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 06:02 AM

"Had the Irish Famine occurred in , say the Midlands or the North of England and had been handled in the manner it was in Ireland, it would have brought about mass unrest, even revolution, as it did here "

Stop making arguments up. You have zero justification for such a statement. It is merely your opinion, dressed up as false facts.
Have you no shame?

You are merely troublemaking as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 06:15 AM

"Stop making arguments up. You have zero justification for such a statement."
Doyou honestly believe that the British people were so docile and subservient as to accept locked warehouses full of food, forced emigrations and mass starvation
Stop being so dismissive of humanity
There is no doubt in my mind that they would have taken up arms in such a circumstances as they did during the Swing Riots, the Luddite Period and the Chartist demands - as teh Welsh did during the Rebecca riots and the toll gate protests
As it was, the evicted crofters resisted the clearances with force and they were a fraction as severe as The Famine
Starving people do not take starvation without resistance
Stop being abusive - even if such behaviour were acceptable, you are the last one to be in a position to talk down to people
"False fact" - straight from teh tweeting of Donald the Trumpeter
Were are your real arguments (rhetorical question in order to underline the fact that you have none)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 07:11 AM

"Jom/SS:

Pot, Kettle. You team up, gang up, get into an abusive mode, then if things don't go your way one of you can get the thread closed, the other can drag the argument to an UNRELATED thread, and the abuse can continue.

You guys are bullies. Ain't no lower form of life because you're cowards as well."

Well "Jom" aside for now (how childish), what a shame you didn't revisit the Gaza thread before posting this tripe. The thread became infested by a concerted, non-stop tirade of extremely abusive postings from bobad and BeardedBruce in the last couple of days of its existence which is why I drew the attention of a moderator to it. The mods tend to avoid threads of that cesspool nature (they are more sane than the rest of us) and threads can run on past their sell-by date unnoticed. I'd like to hear from anyone here who's looked at the last couple of days of that thread who would still like to tell me that it had a constructive future. We are not bullies as you allege, and I for one was fairly inactive in that thread's latter stages, so your point about things "not going my way" so getting the thread closed falls, but there WAS a lot of bullying and hectoring going on from those two that rendered the thing a cancer on this forum.

And if you want to see bullying, wait to see what might happen here next.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 08:00 AM

Revolution:a forcible overthrow of a government or social order, in favour of a new system.

Nowhere do the records of the great   famine record a situation to suggest even an embryonic revolution. Crime figures rose, troops and police had to protect food shipments and at times attend evictions.
Localised protest occurred but nothing organised on a scale to support the idea of government overthrow.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 08:12 AM

"Nowhere do the records of the great   famine record a situation to suggest even an embryonic revolution. "
The knock-on effect of the Famine to the land wars in order to win back the land seized by the landlords, the 1867 Fenian risings, the beginnings of the Home Rule Movement, and, when that failed, Easter week and the Irish War of Independence and eventually, the partial independence we have today
None of this would have happened had it not been for the brutal and inhuman manner in which the Famine had been used
A book or two really would help here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 08:36 AM

"led to the land wars" of course
All this took time, as did the Russian Revolution
The first attempts at ending mass-starvation in Russia actually took place in 1905, when street demonstrations were fired on by Imperial Russian troops on the orders of the Tsar
Masses of protesters were sent to "Stailn's" gulags, which were well established as centres to suppress political unrest in Tolstoy's time, when he wrote his classic 'Retribution'
The inmates of these Gulags formed themselves into political resistance groups and a decade later, kicked the Tsarist regime into the history books
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 09:43 AM

Jim, If you are not a filthy liar quote me ever defending fascism.

Nothing in that thread from eight years ago, on a completely unrelated subject, remotely suggests I ever supported fascism, obviously because I don't and never have.

So let's see the quote, liar.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 09:44 AM

Incidentally:
"Revolution" according to the Oxford English Reference Dictionary

A.1. Revolution, the complete overthrow of an established government or social order by those previously subject to it.
b (in Marxism) the replacement of one ruling class by another; the historically inevitable transition from one economic system to another which is expected to lead to political change and the triumph of communism.
2 Any fundamental change or reversal of conditions.

No mention of violence
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 01:09 PM

Do not try to play semantics with me carrol. There was no revolution during the great famine. As usual you have told blatant lies and exaggerated. Why can you not just present facts and then give your opinion.
You continually boast of reading books and studying subjects.
All I can say is your diatribes confirm you are a pisspoor student.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 01:25 PM

"Do not try to play semantics with me carrol"
Mhmm Carrol - and you can't even spell it - desperate as that
Lies - exaggerations - I suppose it would be waste of time to ask to be put right - course it would !!
Why are you here if you have nothing other than unsubstantiated denials insultingly delivered to offer?
Sorry - no alternative argument - no cigar!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 01:26 PM

Do you really have no self-respect?
It would appear not!
Jim Carroll