BS: On the cause of Famines

Subject: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 05:41 AM

There are numerous causes of Famines. Fire, flood, wars, crop failure, and sometimes deliberate policy.

What is most important is our reactions to them.

Many eminent writers have claimed the Irish Famine of 1845 to 1851 could have been alleviated had the British government reacted differently, and certain individuals have been cited as being the most culpable, notably Charles Trevelyan.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 06:11 AM

This has - correctly - been moved out of the Brexit thread.

I was saying that while the origin is mostly a natural event, it only becomes a famine or flood disaster when it exceeds our preparedness for it. To take a few examples: the Amazon can go into spate very dramatically but it doesn't flood in the sense of disaster because the people who live along the banks normally have a second shelter on higher ground and move into it when necessary. So the event rarely turns into a disaster. Similarly indigenous housing in areas prone to hurricanes or earthquakes are often adapted to survive. I was particularly struck in a museum in Chile where the traditional housing had several layer of slatted walls. This allowed no direct sight for privacy, and cut out minor drafts, but in a gale or hurricane the wind simply passed through.

But events turn into disasters when we don't take account of these natural events. In Georgetown in Barbados there is a ruined Cathedral because the English who went there insisted on trying to build an English style cathedral. So come every hurricane, the roof blew off. Eventually they had to learn it was just unsuitable for the conditions.

So I do not see flooding and famine and the rest as just disasters inflicted on us by nature: even excluding global warming, mankind plays a big role in determining whether we have a manageable event or a disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:10 AM

We should be careful that we don't accidentally exonerate guilty parties from blame by using emotive words like "famine" that imply natural disaster to characterise events that have origins largely caused by deliberate human actions. In the famines in the mid-80s in East Africa, a few people were getting rich by exporting cash crops such as coffee and avocados. In the Irish so-called famine, hundreds of thousands of Irish people starved as food exports from Ireland increased, making good money for a few people. The Irish starved not through lack of food but because they couldn't afford the prices that made exporting the food to England so lucrative. We shouldn't allow history to be written by the manipulators of people.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:38 AM

We shouldn't allow history to be written by the manipulators of people.
Kind of difficult to avoid. Actions have consequences. How those actions are explained immediately polarises opinion. Therein lies the problem.
To judge the irish famine in terms of today's mores totally distorts a true explanation, that was a child of it's time. Against this must be judged modern famines. With modern infrastructure, International aid agencies and the UN the only reason modern famines occur is because of lack of political will to alleviate the problem. In the time of the Irish famine conditions and attitudes were totally different to the modern day . Back then social relief programs were embryonic. I am not going to get into an argument about the causes of the famine because no agreement will ever be reached. I will point out though that In the wake of the Union, Ireland's economy declined rapidly, and abject poverty and subsistence farming became the norm for a majority of the rapidly increasing population. As a result, by 1840 most Anglo-Irish families were heavily in debt. The famine completely beggared them. It is very easy to blame the English but that needs to be tempered by a full appreciation of the Poor Law in Ireland and that the landowners were responsible for paying the local rate on holdings worth less than £4(Ithink) Like any other complex subject the true explanation is shades of grey. The potato blight in Scotland also had a major impact but those supposedly "heartless" landlords were in far better financial state than their Irish Cousins and did help.

" Devine stresses that recent historical opinion suggests that some landowners were very active in famine relief and a good few went bankrupt in their struggle to help distressed people on their estates. As early as 1843, for example, out of an estimated 7,000 estates in Scotland “one twentieth” were already in the hands of the receivers, accounting for land with a total rental value of over £700,000 – and this was to rise to £1,300,000 in 1847 and increase further to £2,000,000 by 1849."


http://www.drb.ie/essays/cruelty-grievance-denial

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2002/oct/05/weekend.lukedodd

https://www.history.ac.uk/ihr/Focus/welfare/articles/crossmanv.html

The high dependency on the potato as a(the) staple food crop created the major problem in Ireland, but it need to be considered in a wider context of crop yields throughout Europe over the same interval.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:53 AM

"The high dependency on the potato as a(the) staple food crop created the major problem in Ireland"

There may be a modicum of truth in that statement, however vast quantities of food was exported from Ireland to overseas markets (primarily Britain) throughout the famine. So shortage of food itself was not the problem.

A brief overview is attached:

Irish Food Exports

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:56 AM

I hate it when only half gets posted. The rest below:


http://www.drb.ie/essays/cruelty-grievance-denial

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2002/oct/05/weekend.lukedodd

https://www.history.ac.uk/ihr/Focus/welfare/articles/crossmanv.html

The high dependency on the potato as a(the) staple food crop created the major problem in Ireland, but it needs to be considered in a wider context of crop yields throughout Europe over the same interval.
The_European_subsistence_crisis_of_1845-1850_A_comparative_perspective
The earlier Irish famine of 1740/1 was the last gasps of the little ice age.
"An extraordinary climatic shock, the "Great Frost" struck Ireland and the rest of Europe between December 1739 and September 1741, after a decade of relatively mild winters. Its cause remains unknown. Charting its course sharply illuminates how climate events can result in famine and epidemic disease, and affect economies, energy sources, and politics"

It would be an interesting study to correlate climate upheaval with social upheaval, war, famine and radically altered political structures.
It is of note that crop yields show a far greater negative response to increased temperature than lower temperatures. Perhaps far more attention should be paid to this fact.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 09:00 AM

The last point is arguable, especially when you read about the sheer amounts of food that were being exported as hundreds of thousands starved. The dependence on the spud was no natural outcome. Food prices were beyond ordinary Irish people and the need for profit-making trumped the need to feed the population. Of course there were shining exceptions, examples of wonderful humanitarian behaviour. But those abundant food exports (read about the obscene quantities of butter that were being exported at the very height of the famine), the high food prices and the deaths of hundreds of thousands are inextricably linked. Cause and effect writ large.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 09:01 AM

I meant the point about the dependency on the potato as a primary cause. It simply didn't have to be that way.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 10:40 AM

Famines are always political. If your neighbour's starving and you don't do anything to help, that's political.

A few facts on the 1840s:

Ireland produced enough food to keep the population well fed and in comfort during the five years of the Famine - grain, meat, vegetables, butter, cheese, etc. But that food was exported, the ships loaded and sailing under military guard. Fishermen were fined and their nets and boats confiscated if they didn't pay tax for using nets. There was also a level of official ignorance that seems likely to have been deliberate - for instance, it was not until a Quaker-commissioned report on fish stocks that the myth of the Dogger Bank swarming with herring ceased to be repeated (the fish stocks had moved away from Ireland's shores due to the same climate events that caused the failure of the potato crops.

There's not a lot of point in a discussion by well-fed self-appointed experts. If you want to do a quick study of famine and its causes, go on over to South Sudan or to the Yemen. I'll be waiting with interest for your report.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 11:44 AM

Famines are always political. If your neighbour's starving and you don't do anything to help, that's political.
Might be true for the modern world but nonsense for the early civilisations and even largely true up until the mid 17th century. Prior to that time no "industrial" farming of any kind existed, it was little better than subsistance for most. Even if there was a localised political will to alleviate hungeer the infrastructure and trade links made such efforts of limited use. Holland was the first country to have developed enough agricultural expertise and trading links enabling avoidance of european famines. This was closely followed by England.
After this time the means to avoid famine in Europe existed, in many cases the political will to implement the means did not always exist.
An example of the will to assist is Operations Manna and Chowhound, consisting of airdrops in 1944/5 in the Netherlands to counter a German blockade.
The middle east is impacted by by climate cycles driven by anomalies in sea-surface temperatures. These cyclical changes in turn affect surface temperatures and precipitation on land, and their impact can last for decades. Certain of these areas are stressed by reduced yields, overpopulation and sporadic/continuous warfare. The Yemen, Sudan, Eritrea, Syria, Niger. In some   of these areas the UN aid agencies are active, in others not so active. In the Yemen I cannot recall seeing them, or in Syria. I did see them infesting 5 star hotels in Eritrea, but not appearing to do much else. Even when aid arrives it is not totally unknown for local warlords to commandeer it and sell it on the open market. If the political will was there this theft could be stamped on and examples made. However when many of these wars are in reality western driven proxy wars there are no yes/no responses. The left hand does not wish to communicate with the right. It is Strange these disputed areas only offer potential corridors or rumours of resources under the sand.

The Akkadian Empire in Syria, 2334 BC - 2193 BC.
The Old Kingdom of ancient Egypt, 4200 years ago
The Late Bronze Age (LBA) civilization in the Eastern Mediterranean.
The Maya civilization of 250 - 900 AD in Mexico.
The Tang Dynasty in China, 700 - 907 AD.
The Tiwanaku Empire of Bolivia's Lake Titicaca region, 300 - 1000 AD
.............
The main cause of the above civilisations to collapse was drought and resultant famine/instability.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 11:54 AM

"Self-Appointed Experts."
Well, no wonder there is animosity in a consideration of history,
if there is arrogance at play.
In fact a consideration of history ought to be humbling,
and there is a list too long for somebody as lazy as me
of justifications for humility when facing history.

Is it possible to consider history
as the best of schoolteachers do before young, maturing students:
as a subject of study that is never finished, even if the events
are many thousands of years in the past?

And to consider not only what is correct and accurate,
but what is possible --
so as not to impose limitations on critical thinking,
but to open both mind and heart?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 12:44 PM

Experts claimed the earth was flat, that rocks could not fall from the sky, that man could never fly. Beware of experts - Be very aware!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 01:45 PM

But only experts found out how measure the circumference of the earth (Eratosthenes) and others how to fly. Beware dismissal of experts as well!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 02:04 PM

"Experts" tend to be a word used by the likes of the Mail and Express to ridicule, er, experts. My dad calls it the cult of the Philistine.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 03:47 PM

The only serious comment I would make is that accepted truths can change over time. The view of experts has given us global cooling, global warming and climate change. All within the space of several decades.
There may now be a consensus as to which way the wind is blowing, but the exact nature of how the wind blows is still by no means settled science,. neither is the manner by which the many varying factors inter relate.
Or to phrase it another way. The road to hell is paved with very unevenly laid slabs that trip the unwary and lead up blind alleys.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 04:16 PM

Here is a classic comment:
The Labour leader also said in a Passover message on Friday that there is a "need to do better", and promised Jewish people he is their "ally" in the fight against anti-Semitism. "You recall the saying, 'Evil happens when good men do nothing.' I have not been attending parliament because I'm on sick leave, but if I had been there on Monday last week, I would have joined the protest", he said. (Keith Vaz mk 2 Mayhap?)

    I am surprised Guido has not trampled all over this. I might have to cc himm.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 04:17 PM

Whoops. definitely in the wrong thread!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 04:23 PM

In addition to all the actual famines, however caused, there is also grinding poverty, which results in perpetual hunger (not necessarily starvation, but certainly malnutrition and related diseases) I should think this accounts indirectly for many millions of lives lost. I've seen it happening in Senegal, Gambia, Cote d'Ivoire and Ghana, all of which are reasonably viable states, but where there are countless people struggling to feed themselves and their families on practically nothing.

The sad thing is that globally there is enough food for all, if only it were to be shared out fairly, and if authoritarian states changed their regimes. I only know about Africa, but there, some governments prioritise party propaganda, military financing, self-interest and corrupt siphoning off resources for personal investments elsewhere. This is particularly the case in the Horn of Africa, but to a lesser extent in West Africa too.

For example, the Republic of Congo and the Democratic Republic of Congo have enough agricultural and economic resources to feed vast numbers, but sadly they don't do so.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 05:31 PM

Senoufou. You are correct. The definition of poverty in the UK seems to be the inability to afford to watch sky TV. We both well know that countries with inadequate or non-existant social welfare programs have real grinding poverty of which most in the western world have no understanding. Malnutrition, illness, poverty, erratic work opportunities create a cycle from which there is no escape. Couple that with restricted agriculture frequently stressed by drought and everything is in place for periodic famines. Introduce political instability, enrichment of the elite, and war and the outcome is fairly predictable. These problems also exist in the Arab world, yet far less attention is paid to it.

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/the-persistence-of-poverty-in-the-arab-world/

We have no grounds for complacency concerning our own food security.


https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12571-009-0026-y

We have demonstrations about eating animals, carrying out medical research on them ,or hunting them. People dying of starvation or suffering acute malnutrition a continent away passes unnoticed.
We inhabit a strange world of confused priorities and a collective amnesia.
That Bono and Geldorf are seen as the only ones raising awareness,says a lot for the state of our society and political   structures.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 06:10 PM

In Senegal (Casamance region in the South) I saw the effects of several years of failure of the rains. Water was obtained from wells, and used for crop irrigation (and for human use too). As the subterranean water levels fell, the wells were unusable as the water was too far down to access.
This area used many years ago to be a very successful agricultural region, growing sugar cane and even rice. I saw quite a few deserted villages, and was told the inhabitants had headed for Dakar, to try and make a living in the capital city.
Added to this, the government had put up signs all over the place warning about desertification caused by people's goats stripping away any residual vegetation, eating any small plants and causing the earth to dry out and blow away. From being 'sub-Saharan', one could see that it could easily become 'Saharan'.
In northern Cote d'Ivoire, they've stupidly cut down much of the forests for timber profits, again causing desertification. My husband's ancestral village, Nafamadougou, used to be a forest settlement a couple of centuries ago. Now it's savannah, and is drying out rapidly.
This sort of thing can provoke famine and mass migration to the cities.
There are already thousands of settlers in shanty towns on the outskirts of Abidjan. They can't all find work or feed their families without much hardship. It's a disaster waiting to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:38 PM

"The definition of poverty in the UK seems to be the inability to afford to watch sky TV. "

It might seem that way to you, but we are living in a country that has burgeoning food banks, head teachers opening their schools despite twelve-foot snow drifts in order to at least give the poorest kids one hot meal and classroom teachers spending their own money to buy little girls sanitary towels or tampons so that they don't have to use tissues or wet wipes or leak on to the classroom floor. I should like you to consider for a moment why the poorest people, in your eyes, don't "deserve" those objects so emblematic of the capitalist system such as Sky TV, iPhones or X-Boxes. I mean, why not? These things are advertised at them 'til kingdom come. Are you really telling me that it's fine to thrust these goodies like mad at the most disadvantaged in society, then either tell them that they should really be spending the money on something else more urgent or, if they haven't bought them yet, be happy that the deserving rich can have them while they can't? Really?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 09:04 PM

Malthus was and is right. Couple that with greed -- for money, for power, for whatever -- and you have a disaster. We Terrans either wise up fast, really fast, or what we call civilization will fall apart like an over-ripe fruit. It's happened before.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 09:16 PM

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 09:46 PM

""The definition of poverty in the UK seems to be the inability to afford to watch sky TV. ""
Sen did not actually say that, at least, I hope she didn't
What particular smuc Tory rag did that come from "it used to be "why have they all got televisions if they are so poor"
There is no justification for comparing the situation in the wealthy west to that of the impoverished Third World Countries
This is the situation in Britain today - notice the predictions of what's to come
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/poverty-britain-joseph-rowntree-foundation-report-theresa-may-social-mobility-commission-million-a8089491.html
I was forced to leave home ans settle in the soft South Eastern underbelly of Britain to find work - I couldn't even do that now with the predatory price of accommodation wherever there's work
I don't know what planet you people are living on in your smug cocoons of unreality - certanly not the same one as me and mine experienced AND ARE STILL EXPERIENCING
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 11:07 PM

Article on the relief the United States provided to Soviet Russia in 1921. The Russians were grateful, but the Soviets re-wrote history in addition to creating conditions which starved millions of Ukrainians in the 30s.

Herbert Hoover may well have saved more lives than any other single human being. Not as President of the U.S., which he would not be for another 7 years, but for the logistics master he was.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:55 AM

"but the Soviets re-wrote history in addition to creating conditions which starved millions of Ukrainians in the 30s."
The whole of that history has been re-written by both sides
The Ukrainian famine came about by Collectivisation, which was a bungled attempt to feed a starving Soviet Union
Stalin's ruthlessness was matched by that of the land-owning peasants (the Kulaks) who slaughtered their livestock and burned their crops rather than take pert in the scene (carefully missed out by many historians)
No side came out of this affair with anything to be proud of.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 04:36 AM

I always try to make it very clear when I am paraphrasing someone.
Poverty in the UK and poverty in the third world is like comparing apples to oranges. According to the BBC a schoolkid without internet access is deprived.
Try realistically using that yardstick when looking at the number of street kids in third world countries. If a school dinner is required, in the UK, then I assume housing, clothing, dental care and access to free medical attention is a given. NOT SO in third world countries.
No one denies there are problems in the UK,but deaths from malnutrition are rare. At least a safety net exists and for those children that slip through how much is due to poverty and how much to
dysfuntional families? ?(from the Beeb. So you know it is correct!http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42223497 )
If the UK has a problem, other countries have a catastrophe. Taking infant mortality as an easily measured indicator of poverty the link below spells it out.(brutally)
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html
In essence the difference between UK and third world poverty is curtailed quality of life as opposed to curtailed life! A significant difference.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 05:47 AM

I agree with all you say Iains. But you and I are at a bit of an advantage, since we've seen with our own eyes Third World poverty, and it's extremely shocking for a Westerner to witness. People actually collapse and die in the street of disease and hunger, and their corpses start to rot in the heat before the 'pompiers' roll up to collect them.

That ranking of infant mortality is most interesting. Out of the first 40 countries listed, nearly all are in Africa. And many of those nations have sufficient resources to feed their populations if their economies were better managed.

Now I wonder if exactly the same thing could be said of UK families who are struggling? I can already hear the groans, but my parents managed on an absolute pittance just after the War. My mother knew how to cook very very cheap meals and to make clothes for us all on her sewing-machine and by endless knitting, using old clothes cut down and unravelling the wool from old cardigans etc. We had very little in the way of possessions. Jumble sales were haunted by all the families in our area. I can truthfully say we WERE poor, but always clean, adequately fed and clothed.

If today's families could be taught to manage like that, I wonder if things would be better for the children?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 06:57 AM

Sense from the gruniard. Let's see the armchair socialists try to shred this:


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/05/poverty-uk-better-calling-it-inequality

The average UK household in 1950 would be in abject poverty according to modern definitions.
No car, no TV, no double glazing, no central heating, basic food still on rationing. But the population was far healthier.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 07:06 AM

"I can already hear the groans,"
Pretty good hearing if you can pick mine up from the West of Ireland Sen
After the war, Britain was in a crisis and needed to rebuild - the Labor Government, as wishy-washy socialist as it was, did much to make that happen
Britain is among the wealthiest countries today - there is enough to go around and ascertain that none should go homeless or hungry
The gap between haves and have nots has been put up far too often to need to be put up again.
Why should people have to recycle material to clothe themselves - is that really the regressive Britain you wish to pass on to the next generation ?
This really is the 21st century
THese discussions always remind me of THIS (can't find the superior Peter Sellars recording)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 07:08 AM

Most rational people will understand the term relative poverty.

Poverty in modern (mostly western states) is vastly different to poverty in third world or developing nations.

However in a modern progressive nation, poverty in the form it exists in some areas of Britain, simply should not happen.

For example the need for Food Banks, it is a very poor indictment of a 21st century Britain that such things are necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 07:21 AM

There's no going back, Senoufou, at least not unless someone bombs us all back to the Stone Age. Capitalism brings heightened expectation that the things we see others enjoying, and that are advertised to us at every turn, can be ours, now. We are given a sense of entitlement. Capitalism is a system predicated on manipulating us all.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:23 AM

"No car, no TV, no double glazing, no central heating, basic food still on rationing. But the population was far healthier."

Sure it was. We died far younger, half of us were smoking ourselves to death, heart disease was rife, we were still battling polio, measles and diphtheria, the infant mortality rate was much higher, we suffered frequent outbreaks of typhoid and smallpox and all our teeth fell out. Apart from all that, yeah, we were far healthier.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:31 AM

"No car, no TV, no double glazing,"
I was hospitalised twice as a child for diphtheria due to the appalling conditions we were forced to live in
I am reminded of this fact every winter when aa enjoy my annual bouts of bronchitis (and I wouldn't know what a cigarette tastes like)
Maybe my mother should have learned to knit me new lungs!
Sorry to bang on about this - it tends to be personal with me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:44 AM

For Shaw from his favourite newspaper:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/books/article-3713489/Thinner-fitter-happier-sexier-not-diet-book-therapist-sight-Thanks-WWII-pu
or
"In December 1939 Elsie Widdowson and Robert McCance of the University of Cambridge tested whether the United Kingdom could survive with only domestic food production if U-boats ended all imports. Using 1938 food production data, they fed themselves and other volunteers one egg, one pound of meat and four ounces of fish a week; one quarter pint (0.14 litre) of milk a day; four ounces of margarine; and unlimited amounts of potatoes, vegetables and wholemeal bread. Two weeks of intensive outdoor exercise simulated the strenuous wartime physical work Britons would likely have to perform. The scientists found that the subjects' health and performance remained very good after three months; the only negative results were the increased time needed for meals to consume the necessary calories from bread and potatoes.

The results—kept secret until after the war—gave the government confidence that, if necessary, food could be distributed equally to all, including high-value war workers, without causing widespread health problems. Britons' actual wartime diet was never as severe as in the Cambridge study because imports from the United States avoided the U-boats but rationing improved the health of British people; (pay attention shaw)infant mortality declined and life expectancy rose, excluding deaths caused by hostilities. This was because it ensured that everyone had access to a varied diet with enough vitamins.

Sweeping statements from shaw, no evidence to back it up. Now who else does that ad nauseum?

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/9728.php

https://www.nutrition.org.uk/nutritioninthenews/wartimefood/warnutrition.html

I recommend you get a new hymn book, some of your verses are misleading if not totally erroneous.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:54 AM

"No car, no TV, no double glazing," and I had no mains water, no electricity, no drainage, water from the pump and a privy halfway down the garden. This for my first 5.5 years, but I do not continually bang on about it.
Equality is another socialist myth from the dream time.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:32 AM

It would seem that some people have aspirations only for themselves, the rest of the people can go hang, live in poor conditions, with subsistence food and clothing with bogs down the bottom of the yard as long as they are alright.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 01:00 PM

"but I do not continually bang on about it."
No - but you advocate it for others - which is worse
"Equality is another socialist myth from the dream time"
he right to a roof over your head a job and food on the table is hardly "equality" - yet you would deny people even that (a Tory myth to raise it in this discussion)
You really are a bit of a Tebbitite stereotype, aren't you
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 01:31 PM

Interestingly the government attitude to food for the workers during the early part of WW1 retained elements of the Victorian thinking that exacerbated the Irish Famine."Almost immediately after Lloyd George became the prime minister in late 1916, he took it upon himself to
address the issue,creating the Ministry of Food in hopes that this expanded department could help curb the difficulties of what was becoming a full-blown crisis.(of grain availability for bread)
https://digitalcommons.csbsju.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1081&context=honors_theses
"the staple foods of the working class (grains and flours) were produced abroad closer to 80% of the time, while the middle and upper
-class more regularly enjoyed locally grown vegetables,fruits,and meats." That this could be a problem should a european war break out was recognised in the closing years of Victoria's reign. But the usual government "indolence" held sway.Because of this,the diet of the wor
king poor was extremely fragile and entirely dependent on a very limited spread of imported foodstuffs"
"research suggests a modification of the conventional view of the effects of food control in the First World War. While energy levels were maintained by a combination of price controls and rationing, the intakes of some key nutrients deteriorated." (Due to lack of nutritional knowledge)
By the time WW2 came around the government was far more organised and knowledgeable. The Vitamin deficiencies of WW1 diet were known and planned for (for example children encouraged to harvest rose hips for vitamin C) The minitry of food immediately started rationing and this did not finish until 1954.https://www.nutrition.org.uk/nutritioninthenews/wartimefood/warnutrition.html
Post WW2 government strategic stockpiles were maintained around the country.http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/features/sfs/file_14.htm
Below pie in the sky in my book. I do not think they know the meaning of resilience, and several scenarios seem to be missing.
https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/FINAL_FFS_Report-June-2014.pdf

The situation today I believe is that strategic stocks no longer exist and that what is available is that contained in store and in the "just in time" supply chain. No doubt for the great and the good it is a different story.
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/features/food/
In a world that is increasingly interdependant, with little resilience or redundancy and therefore more prone to shock, the present situation regarding stockpiles seems insanity to me.



.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 01:44 PM

A more up to date view.
http://henryjacksonsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Shocks-and-Disruptions-The-Relationship-Between-Food-Security-and-Nati

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 02:03 PM

"No car, no TV, no double glazing," and I had no mains water, no electricity, no drainage, water from the pump and a privy halfway down the garden. This for my first 5.5 years, but I do not continually bang on about it...

Didn't do you much good, did it?

...but rationing improved the health of British people; (pay attention shaw)infant mortality declined and life expectancy rose, excluding deaths caused by hostilities. This was because it ensured that everyone had access to a varied diet with enough vitamins.

Infant mortality rate, England and Wales, 1940, 50 per thousand live births. In 2015, five per thousand live births.

Life expectancy at birth, 1940, men 63, women 67. 2010, men 78, women 83.

What I said, among other things:

"We died far younger...the infant mortality rate was much higher..."

You tried to tell us at 06.57 today how much healthier we all were then, didn't you. Well when you want to argue vexatiously just for the sake of it, all you do is make an ass of yourself. And you've been doing so well lately. Tsk.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:12 PM

I do believe the argument revolved around rationing. This ended in 1954.
I do not think anyone would dispute the fact that post war affluence
led to improved diet, better medical care and increased life expectancy. Although the epidemic of chronic obesity is likely to reverse these post war outcomes. Perhaps rationing should be reintroduced.
Now I think shaw that as you are arguing over criteria you have introduced up   to modern times when the medical evidence quoted was for decades ago and referred specifically to a regime under rationing, than perhaps you are being vexatious. As you generally are when arguing with me.
Now I think you will agree that had you read and understood what was written by me you would not have made a total ass of yourself now would you?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:23 PM

"No car, no TV, no double glazing," and I had no mains water, no electricity, no drainage, water from the pump and a privy halfway down the garden. This for my first 5.5 years, but I do not continually bang on about it...

Didn't do you much good, did it?

A typical attempted put down by shaw and in particularly bad taste!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 05:32 PM

Here's what you said, verbatim:

"The average UK household in 1950 would be in abject poverty according to modern definitions.
No car, no TV, no double glazing, no central heating, basic food still on rationing. But the population was far healthier."

You were quite clearly comparing then with NOW. No getting away from that, Iains. My point was that we were clearly not "far healthier" then according to quite a number of criteria. When you pressed me on it with a typical insult I provided you with example figures comparing then with now (I selected 1940 instead of 1950 but the point stands firm). I could have provided figures for any of the other factors I mentioned too. I don't doubt that wartime rationing might have had unintended beneficial consequences. But it is wrong to say that we were far healthier. We were not, not by a long chalk.

"Aye, we 'ad it tough, shared t'chemical bog at bottom of garden wi' twenty other 'ouses, 'ad nobbut thin gruel an' stale 'ovis crust every night fer us tea, us dad whipped us ter sleep every night wi' 'is belt, and it never did me no 'arm..."

Yes it bloody did. Give over.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 05:58 PM

locusts, lack of water, and monoculture, (and war). All can contribute.

With potatoes in Ireland - monoculture played a big part. Vulnerable to a virus. Yea, yea, the political situation too.

And do we learn the lesson? Ever heard of Cavendish - virtually the only variety of banana you can buy. Monoculture leads to viruses, but in that case it is a fungus. Makes for small bananas. So they just start a new plantation until the fungus finds it. Eventually we will run out of banana ground.

Cross breeding? First find yer banana seed**! Banana is a jungle herb, propagated by cutting. And it is a plant not a tree!


**they are working on it. Have been for a long time...........

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:13 PM

The Cavendish banana is indeed a fine example of humanity cruisin' for a bruisin'. The Irish potatoes were a monoculture only in the sense that potatoes are potatoes. There are many varieties of spud, genetically diverse. Unfortunately, they are all, not quite equally but not that differently, vulnerable to blight. Which, Mr Red by the way, is a fungus, not a virus. And trees are plants and some plants are trees. The received wisdom is that blight caused the Irish Hunger. Never forget that there was ALWAYS enough food in Ireland to feed everybody, even to the point of obesity. The Hunger was the result of Irish people being priced out by the fact that the English were more than willing to pay a fortune more for food grown in Ireland than the Irish could afford to pay. We got fat while the Irish starved. Blaming the blight is to make the blight a scapegoat. The Hunger was caused by naked capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 03:50 AM

I still think that better management in households on Benefits would improve the children's health and well-being.
We visit an Asda about every ten days, to get certain items not sold in our favourite Tesco. This Asda is right in the middle of a social housing area which has many problems with crime, drugs, fighting between tenants and so on. Many of the mums are single and on Benefits. (I know this because the school where I worked used to liaise with their school) I don't judge, I merely describe.

I watched the customers yesterday with interest. Their trolleys were crammed with packs of 24 sugary doughnuts, frozen ready-meals, gigantic pizzas, large tubs of ice-cream, several loaves of white sliced bread, and the inevitable huge plastic bag of frozen chips. The women always stop outside the main door to have a smoke while their children run all over the car park narrowly missing being run over. Nearly every person (male and female) was literally covered in tattoos and piercings, and everyone's hair was dyed in startling colours. Many, adults and children alike, were very obese.

Now I merely wonder - if they stopped smoking and buying cigarettes, paying large sums of money for tattoos and hair-colouring products, and spent the same amount at the checkout but for more nourishing items such as vegetables, inexpensive meat cuts, fruit and eggs, would their health be better, and would their children be better fed?
I honestly believe that these women (and men) have never been shown how to live on their income. They mostly don't work, so they do have the time and energy to cook, (eg home-made meat pies, casseroles, vegetable soup and so on) They need guidance and support with budgeting and correct diet.
I also have to add that in this area there are jobs to be had. It isn't suffering from unemployment. In fact, they're crying out for carers, checkout assistants, cleaners, waiting staff and many other non-skilled workers.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 04:05 AM

"I still think that better management in households on Benefits would improve the children's health and well-being."
That goes without saying on any level Sen - if not for the good of the family, then for that of the planet - management of natural resources and ascertain that you aren't filling our hospitals with unnecessarily unhealthy people
It has nothing whatever to do with poverty and unfairness in Britain today, which you appear to be avoiding.
There is enough food to go around to feed everyone in Britain - why should the poor bear the burden ?
Any society that can't provide a system that allows its people to feed, clothe and house themselves is way past its sell-by date
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 04:26 AM

"According to Professor John Ashton, president of the Faculty of Public Health, modern Britons are actually at a greater risk of malnutrition than they were under rationing. He said in an interview with the Sunday Times: “Nobody is arguing for going back to rationing but it is salutary to think that when we had rationing everybody was getting the essential nutrients. What we have now is malnutrition of a different kind than we have ever experienced before, except from the wealthy who used to sometimes suffer from the sin of gluttony, which is a form of malnutrition. We have mass gluttonous malnutrition.” A study by the International Obesity Task Force found that children today consume 3,000 calories per day, which is 1,200 more than their counterparts on rations - the equivalent of eight chocolate bars."

"Throughout the 20th century, average life expectancy has been increasing. This is primarily a result of a change in disease patterns, as infectious diseases have declined, and chronic diseases have become the nation’s main killers. A number of factors are recognised to influence the risk of chronic disease, including diet and lifestyle. Therefore, dietary guidelines have been developed to help people follow a diet that can maximise their health and longevity. These guidelines   were first established in 1950.


https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ec59/1b7ba037372f82ddf42363b824c44156870c.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 04:57 AM

Well I too frequent Asdas and Tescos (and Lidls) both up north and in the poorest parts of the westcountry and I do glance occasionally at other people's trolley contents. I've seen a few packed as you describe, I've seen a few packed with well-chosen veg, fruit and meat and I've seen most that are somewhere on a spectrum in between. I see far fewer mothers hanging around having a fag than I used to. Tattoos and facial ornamentation are not for me but as far as I'm concerned they are means of self-expression In the same way as hairstyles, beards and colours of clothing are. I won't begin to try to judge anyone's character by their tattoos. There's a chap in Bude whose every inch of skin from head to foot is tattooed and he's a lovely man. With respect, I did find your post to be broad-brush and judgemental. Capitalism throws fast food, convenience food and other high-salt, high-sugar, high-fat processed rubbish at us constantly and incessantly. In schools, cookery is a Cinderella, girlie subject. Jamie Oliver tried his damnedest to popularise healthy eating in schools and failed abysmally. The parents with limited cooking skills are confronted by an unstoppable tide of cheap rubbish that can be whacked on the plate in minutes and which the kids will actually eat. I think you are blaming things on the wrong people.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 05:11 AM

But Steve, I'm not voicing an opinion on the attractiveness or otherwise of tattoos etc. I have seen and admired the most strange and bizarre body art and hairstyles in W Africa. I do not look down on anyone who presents themselves in any fashionable or bizarre way. MY point is that on a very limited budget, one cannot afford to spend much-needed family money on such things. Tattoos are very expensive. So are cigarettes. And convenience meals... And rather than 24 sugary doughnuts, one would be better advised to choose some fresh food with more value than pure sugar and fat for growing children.

And I agree with you that we are all bombarded with promotions for unhealthy and expensive food items. And that Cookery is no longer taught well, if at all, in school.

This is exactly why I am saying that guidance and education is much needed to help folk budget better and spend their money wisely. I notice that there are some adverts on TV now about healthy eating options and getting more vegetables/fruit onto the table. Our Tesco offers free fruit for children (small apples,oranges etc on a stand at the door) I don't think it is Poverty which is the main stumbling block. It is Ignorance. I am blaming society for that, not the shoppers at Asda.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 05:34 AM

There is enough food to go around to feed everyone in Britain - why should the poor bear the burden ?

There is always choice. Some choices are difficult to make because the chooser has preferences ingrained at an early age. They could be re-educated but that is not only a hard route, it imposes someone else's mores.

But what society chooses to give, can it not ask quid pro quo?

Try asking, you will get your answer! It will include a few choice adjectives and not a few verbs.

And I wonder about that plenty of food. Where does most of it come from? Here or not here. Change the parameters and you will see where the land lies. And we are discussing a change right now, not very eloquently, and with as much mess now as there will be soon. To bring it back to food - just watch the prices - and you will see. They ain't going down. Time will prove me correct. Least ways, I will be happy to be wrong............... if !

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 05:55 AM

Sebnoufou. You tell it like it is. I would not have the courage to be quite so blunt on this forum.
It is quite interesting when talking about health both Steve and I used the same metrics. Infant mortality and in Steve's case life expectancy.
In some ways they both encapsulate the essentials of a person's life linking health with duration. True as far as it goes but also skips over such things as quality of life and the truism that you are what you eat. My links above demonstrate there was a class divide impacting heath up to the end of WW1. Basic nutrition was understood by WW2 and
as a result all socioeconomic groups benefited. Post the 1954 end of rationing many things changed. The NHS, increasing car ownership, advances in medicine, diminishing cost of food, take aways and prepackaged meals........
    The government may have experts on nutrition, but try to have an intelligent conversation on the street about the subject and prepare to be disappointed. I would have to agree with Steve's last sentence above. We have a rising tide of obesity that has not yet had significant impact on mortality rates, but repeated studies suggest that it will, because there would seem to be a link between obesity and susceptibility to other diseases. IN 1950 most people walked, now kids no longer even walk to school(admittedly sometimes for good reason) " Just 60 years ago the average woman stood 5ft 2in tall, weighed 9st 10lb and was a size 12, with a tiny 27-inch waist.Today, according to the UK National Sizing Survey, we average a size 16, grow to around 5ft 4in, weigh around 10st 3lb, and our waists have expanded by a staggering seven inches".
As convenience rules supreme, and there is not a vast cost differential between cooking from scratch and wacking something frozen into a microwave, the outcome can hardly come as a surprise. Nutrition should be taught in schools along with basic cookery skills. It is hard to know if it is truly ignorance or idleness causes the problem.
As big government pokes it's nose into all aspects of life today perhaps a case could be made for reintroducing rationing with punitive taxes on gluttony. In an electronic world this would present no problem. Exceed your family calorie count and get hammered. I knew one far kid at secondary school out of 600 and he had a medical problem.
You have a challenge trying to find a skinny one today. Also the lobbying by these companies would terminate such a scheme immediately. Health eating could be achieved in schools if the government had the will. I recall my school dinners being nutritious but this does nor always equate with appetising.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 06:05 AM

And again the poor are being blamed for being poor and told it is up to them to cope with the shitty end of the stick our crumbling society has given them
I expected it fro Iains - he's the one who say survivors of horrendous foires should not be allowed to use cvacaant private property - but Sen!!!
In sadness
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 06:10 AM

more grist for the mill:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Derek_Yach/publication/26391654_Food_fight_the_inside_story_of_the_food_industry_America's_
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/190446

15888/obesity-adulthood-its-consequences-life-expectancy-life-table-analysis

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 06:12 AM

Chewing on lemons again. Pure gibberish.
"I expected it fro Iains - he's the one who say survivors of horrendous foires should not be allowed to use cvacaant private property - but Sen!!"

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 06:52 AM

"Chewing on lemons again. Pure gibberish."
Your abuse appears every time you are faced with a statement you are unable to respond to - sort of like a child who can't get its way throwing the plate on the floor
I hope for the sake of your family that you aren't this abuse at home - or maybe the opposite is the case and you come and take it out on us hereJim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:09 AM

Hahahaha Iains, yes I knew I was sticking my head above the parapet.
I've got my trusty tin hat on.

If one looks at the amount of money coming in to these house holds I'm talking about (near Asda) it isn't actually too bad. They get Housing Benefit, Child Benefit, no Council Tax to pay, free prescriptions, and JSA. Most of them are actually capable of work. And I know for a fact that many add surreptitiously to their income by various unsavoury means. (I got to know many families like these when I worked with ex-offenders. I grew very fond of them and found them rather vulnerable in many ways)
It's social incompetence not poverty that makes their lives unsatisfactory. Any social worker will tell you the same thing.

I also know many pensioners who have very little income, but our generation knows how to make ends meet and how to budget well. The State Pension in UK is one of the lowest in Europe, but all the old folk I know in our village eat well because they know how to.

I do not despise these families. But they're no poorer than my husband who works full time for £7-50 and hour and even pays some Tax on that.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:35 AM

"Hahahaha Iains,"
Now the poor ain't really poor any more
Shame on you Sen - not only denigrating the poor but laughing at them
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:53 AM

Don't be so daft Jim. I was laughing at Iains saying he would not have the courage to be so blunt on this forum. As well you know :)

I can see a storm brewing, and I'm off.

My husband has gone 'Up The City' to have his hair cut (African barber's shop in Norwich. He'll be ages nattering to all the others) and I promised him I'd make a start on the weeding as the sun is out.

Enjoy slinging insults at each other. I'm going to do some gardening!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:55 AM

"I can see a storm brewing, and I'm off."
Me too Sen - in sadness
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 10:46 AM

" and I'm off."

CHANCE WOULD BE A FINE THING !!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 12:03 PM

Iains, was that directed at me or Jim?

If it was to me, I can certainly oblige you if you like, no need to leave it to chance!

(Done a bit of weeding, husband home from the barber's, back on here apparently irritating everybody, hee hee)

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 12:40 PM

"If one looks at the amount of money coming in to these house holds I'm talking about (near Asda) it isn't actually too bad. They get Housing Benefit, Child Benefit, no Council Tax to pay, free prescriptions, and JSA. Most of them are actually capable of work. And I know for a fact that many add surreptitiously to their income by various unsavoury means."

Well if you can tell just by looking at people at Asda who's on what benefit, etc., you are something of a miracle-woman. By the way, people on jobseekers are harassed constantly by the benefits people and they can't get away with not taking jobs. If you're deemed capable of work and there are jobs around, you take the job or lose benefit, even if you're half-dead. Housing benefit generally goes straight to landlords (many of whom, incidentally, would make far better targets for your slings and arrows than those people outside Asda). Certainly there are people who cheat the system in the black economy, and that is not excusable, but, again, you're fishing for minnows instead of sharks. You told us you were telling us like it is and not judging. But you clearly are.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 12:41 PM

Certainly not aimed at you Senoufou and I apologise for making my response ambiguous. Your contributions always add a positive note to any thread. I trust the foray into the weeds was a success. Whatever you say is measured, on target and accurate with no flannel and no exaggeration.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 12:59 PM

That's very kind of you to say Iains, thank you.

Steve, if people are capable of work, and there is work available, I don't see why they shouldn't be asked to do so. And the entire area around Asda is social housing, no private landlords. If the folk I see are NOT on Benefits, then they aren't all that poor and have no need for my concern.
I feel it's much more dignified for a family to budget carefully, feed their children healthily and manage their lives successfully than to live in chaos, become ill from malnourishment and obesity and finish up with a visit from social services.
Dependence on the State is not ideal in my view.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 01:02 PM

By the way, I managed only ONE border - the wind got up and my knees were getting stiff. Husband has bought yet more of those ghastly Scotch bonnet chillies on Norwich market. Huge fat ones that can provoke a heart attack. Is he planning something? I renewed our Life Insurance last week....

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 01:03 PM

Okay, Eliza/Senoufou could do with a little bit more respect here.

I don't know about you,
but I was greatly impressed with the old BS thread some time back
that had posts about prison visiting.
I'm not saying that was the thread title, more like creep probably;
but there were numerous posts, regardless,
about the experience of going into the prisons,
visiting with the inmates,
and listening to their families as well.

Eliza/Senoufou need not trot out all her bona-fides and curricula vita
every time she volunteers an observation or opinion, surely.

I have been a guest of prison chaplains and prison volunteers,
inside the very spot where Malcolm Little had his conversion experience
and became Malcolm X, right here in Massachusetts.
All that says, regarding me, is that I know how unqualified I am
next to these volunteers and ministers.

Listening to Eliza being belittled and dismissed
just because she speaks from experience and does not mince words,
is for me much like hearing someone challenge
Charles Adams (deceased), Deacon Gerard P. Rooney (never met him, the inmates think he was a saint),
the Dominican Sisters of Bethany (those who remain in the United States
did so at the cost of leaving their congregation,
which returned to Europe and is dying out).
Not to mention le Bienheureux Pere Marie-Jean-Joseph Lataste OP.

It is all very well to pose challenges and ask questions,
and yet people who know whereof they speak merit respect
when they volunteer their observations.
Sorry, but these people -- and Eliza/Senoufou -- get more respect from me
than do the debaters on the defensive.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 01:20 PM

"Dependence on the State is not ideal in my view. "

The fundamental difference in the US between the Left and Right presently is whether the government ( from the top down) should direct people's lives, pushing them to do what is "good for them"(Left), or whether the minimum amount of government ( from the bottom up) should allow people to go in the direction they wish with a minimum of public interference, and take the responsibility for their actions and decisions.( Right)

The former has the Government taking resources from all to enforce what is decided is good for some, while the latter has the responsibility for for the social safety net being in private ( church and social) rather than government hands.

A BALANCE of both is needed- the LEAST government at the lowest level should provide the minimum to ease poverty and provide for opportunity to improve one's state. IMO, of course




ASIDE- try this on crumpets with cream cheese:

http://www.jamaica-no-problem.com/pepper-jelly.html#sthash.1AcANNZP.dpbs

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 01:24 PM

Steve I think we are probably all more in agreement that not. The trouble with one paragraph responses is that they make points, but in isolation.
I think we can agree that more could be done to educate people about nutrition and this is across all socio-economic groups.
There is a subset of people that are functionally illiterate.
We closed asylums to advocate care in the community,yet some are reduced to having a cardboard box in a doorway as their home. We all have heard of lottery winners that have squandered everything after a couple of years. There are low skilled jobs but no unskilled jobs. To be employable you have to be able to follow simple instructions and obey legitimate orders. For a small minority that is a step too far. So there will always be people outside the continuous care system but unable to do an adequate job of looking after themselves. A basic analysis of the homeless figures give a truly frightening picture. " More than half of young homeless people were excluded from school growing up, 40 per cent experienced abuse at home, 33 per cent self-harm and 30 per cent spent part of their childhood in care. Theoretically they should be targeted as a priority group. In practise, NOT SO. A quick search will find many articles to back this up. Until more is done for disadvantaged children this vicious circle will not be broken and the cycle will continue.

Some prepackaged meals are cheaper than trying to accomplish the same with fresh ingredients so it is hardly surprising many choose the microwave option. It is both fast and effortless.
   Besides the above facts the modern world has virtually eradicated hard graft, yet many eat vast amounts of calories without giving a thought to burning them off, hence rising levels of obesity.

I see no point in fingering the bottom of the heap. Far more would be achieved by fully understanding the various factors that spawned their misfortune. I am sure any reasonable teacher can see those children that society is failing, but short of outright abuse, what does society do about it? I have only outlined a couple of snapshots, obviously it could be vastly expanded.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 03:40 PM

Jim writ on 3 April regarding the Soviet State sponsored starvation of Ukraine:

The Ukrainian famine came about by Collectivisation, which was a bungled attempt to feed a starving Soviet Union
Stalin's ruthlessness was matched by that of the land-owning peasants (the Kulaks) who slaughtered their livestock and burned their crops rather than take pert in the scene (carefully missed out by many historians)
No side came out of this affair with anything to be proud of.

Ah, but one side was Soviet Russia, the side in absolute power (Stalin, remember?). Your fact-free response is utterly ridiculous to anyone who can view the defunct phenomenon of Soviet Communism in a fair light.

Your words are blasphemous not to any religion, but to the human conscience.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:00 PM

I can discuss all that with you any time, Iains, but I'm afraid I can't accept judging from appearances. You may think the people you see outside Asda are from that social housing. Well I frequent an Asda surrounded by social housing, I'm a scruff and I often come out of that Asda with my wagon full of cheap plonk on offer and other unhealthy-looking stuff. I then load it into my beaten-up, ancient Ford Focus that's just about been round the clock. But I also support my local butcher, fishmonger, newsagent and greengrocer, I grow my own veg as much as I can and (apart from my state pension) I'm not on any benefits. And that Asda is 25 miles from my house. Apart from the fact that I don't hang around outside with a fag in my gob, I'm indistinguishable from the people Senoufou describes. Which is why judging from appearances, which you and keberoxu appear to be defending, isn't that safe.

And I see no reason why people on low incomes shouldn't have flat-screen tellies, X-Boxes for the kids, smartphones, tattoos and all the rest of the paraphernalia that capitalism shoves in our faces. Some of the rather arrogant better-off who criticise the poor for such things think nothing of parading around wearing hundreds of pounds' worth of jewellery every day or spending half an hour every morning plastering their faces with expensive makeup and the rest of their bodies with expensive wrinkle-reducer that's as much use as snake oil. And somebody must be buying those twelve-quid bottles of wine I see in Bude Sainsbury's. It ain't me, that's for sure, and I'll guarantee it ain't those claimants either. So easy to condemn from a place of near-luxury. Just what the Tories want us to do! Divide and rule!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:08 PM

By the way, almost every shirt I own and all my undies are Asda George. Why wouldn't I mention that?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:58 PM

"Your fact-free response is utterly ridiculous to anyone who can view the defunct phenomenon of Soviet Communism in a fair light."
I'm no lover of Stalin , though I probably hate him for very different reasons that you do, but I know that there is not a shred of evidence to show that the Ukrainian Famine was "man-made" - not one - unless, of course, you have unearthed some
What was happening the the Soviet Union at the time had nothing to do with Communism (again, unless you can cite in the theoretical works that the incompetence and brutality was part of their doctrine- I've never found it and I've read enough about it)
No system can hold up clean hands - Industrial Capitalism sent six million Jews to their deaths, just as Imperialism and the struggle for political dominance had wiped out a generation of young men two decades before.
New Germany (under the National Socialist Party) was regarded as "the bulwark against Bolshevism" according to war hero, Winston Churchill
Despite what was happening to the Jews in Germany "Herr Hitler" gained power totally appeased until Britain had no alternative but to go to war
I'm sure I don't have to mention our Monarch teaching the Royal sprogs how to do the fascist salute!
The re-formed Luftwaffe perfected their bombing techniques on the market-goers of Guernica and on the citizens of Madrid while Britain mounted a blockade to prevent weapons from reaching the democratically elected Government
When you start counting up the dead of Korea and Vietnam - and now the oil wars, I wouldn't like to take bets on which philosophy (Communism was never a system, but an aim) took more lives (and is till doing so).
Is "free Russia" better or worse than the Soviet Union?
I can't recall genocide taking place in Yugoslavia in of what happened almost immediately after it "threw off its shackles of Communism"
Now Romania is "part of the free world" Britain is desperately trying to keep out Romanian economic migrants - Brexit was pushed through on the basis of excluding such people
When you talk about antisemitism, you need to remember that firms like Volkswagen were founded on Jewish slave labour
I needn't go itno the fact that our British way of life is based on being able to fill our shops with goods produced under near-slavery conditions
Without infringing on other threads, ethnic cleansing is now back with a bang, and it ain't communist states involved in that nasty past-time
There's a great deal of "our oppression is better than your oppression" smugness in these discussions - and a great deal of voluntary amnesia and very little human conscience -
I suggest you read higher up this thread to see how the parasitic poor looking for a "free lunch" are regarded by some of the most fervent supporters of this system of ours
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 04:15 AM

Anyone here use buses regularly?

There are those that are on their way to the Jobcentre (I pass the place) who have smart phones and gab on them the whole journey. A lot of them smoked. When I was in that situation I was on pay-as-you-go and spent 5GBP per 3 months on it.
One makes ones choices.
I preferred to "cut my clothe according to my measure".

There are those that understand what society does for them, but there are also the greedy.
Some of those greedy are castigated for being bloated capitalists.
They are all greedy. All greedies feel they have the right to do what they want. And are only curtailed by rules (rules that are applied that is). Not all greedies are rich. Not all rich are greedy. Ditto poor.

Looking at a successful business person and branding him (or her) as greedy therefore unworthy is as heinous a travesty of objectivity as looking at "the poor" and tarring all with the same brush strokes.

But being honest with an appraisal means other people jump to conclusions that by stating the bleeding obvious you are branding all within a similar single criterion as unworthy.

Being judgemental is easy, being objective requires removing a few pet theories and admitting that you are observing from outside the cohort, and at a distance often.

I live in Stroud by accident. I used to (thank goodness) live in Walsall. That good fortunes is not lost on me.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 04:19 AM

"I suggest you read higher up this thread to see how the parasitic poor looking for a "free lunch" are regarded by some of the most fervent supporters of this system of ours
Jim Carroll "

Of course should anyone demand some proof to justify the bizarre statement above, it will be a forlorn hope.
The man is away with the faeries, as per usual. Trying to make a point by gross exaggeration and outright untruths. The only thing he insists on deleting from his nonsense is "once upon a time." and then he has the audacity to wonder why some treat him as a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 04:41 AM

Aye, Mr Red, you 'ad it TUFF...

I lived in Tipton for a year. Commiserations on your sojourn in Walsall. As I know your grief. I used buses a lot of there. Can't where I live now as there aren't any. My bus pass is next to useless. Maybe those people with the phones and fags were working at the job centre. It must be very stressful.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 07:04 AM

"Of course should anyone demand some proof to justify the bizarre statement above, i"
Feel free to contradict anything I wrote Iains - piece by piece if you can't
handle it any other way
Are you really so stupid as not to realise that your infantile insulting only serves as an indication that you have no intelligent answer to what has been suggested?
You really aren't the brightest Donald Duck illustration on the baby's bib, are you?
Grow up and expand your reading experience beyond hastily snatched Guido Fawkes blogs - proper literature can be extremely enjoyable once you've dipped your toe in it for the first time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 07:07 AM

"I lived in Tipton for a year. "

Tipton boys they did us join, oh boys oh,
Tipton boys they did us join, oh boys oh,
Tipton boys they did us join and we formed a strong combine
Oh boys, oh, boys, oh the brave Dudley Boys
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 11:34 AM

The world according to little jimmie!


Through the eyes of a child

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 11:46 AM

"The world according to little jimmie!"
Stop rproving you have no answer to the poits I made - it's obvious you don't
Got the message loud and clear
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 12:27 PM

Present facts and they can be disputed or accepted. Present fabrications, bluster and totally outlandish statements and expect to be ridiculed. Quite easy really.!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 12:49 PM

"Present facts and they can be disputed or accepted"
Why not try doing this yourself without the abuse - one by one, if you prefer
Any eejit can dismiss out of hand as you are constantly proving
You have the facts as I believe them - disprove them with yours
It really doesn't get more difficult than that
The fact that you don't is a clear indication that you can't
YOUR STARTER FOR TEN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 01:31 PM

Your link has nowt to do with the price of tea in China Laddie.


Anyway back to the thread that is far more interesting. The link below is a 2012 UK food security policy paper. It makes for an interesting read. http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN04985#fullreport There is a pdf of the full report accessed at the end of the paper.
and

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/future-of-food-and-farming

If a severe shock occurred to the food system the UK holds stocks for just under 2 months. Most households keep food stocks for a couple of days. After that Anarchy
and (fairly old)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jan/11/nine-meals-anarchy-sustainable-system

My feeling is that the average punter needs to snap out of complacency.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 01:47 PM

"Your link has nowt to do with the price of tea in China Laddie. "
Game, set and match, I think
Did you really expect anything else, behaving how you do?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 03:56 PM

Go and infest another   thread jimmie. This one was progressing quite well until you started your usual frothing. How many times do different people have to spell things out to you, before you start paying attention. Are you stupid?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 07:05 PM

"This one was progressing quite well until you started your usual frothing."
Not a good loser as well as an abusive idiot
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 07:35 PM

*Groan*

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 08:26 PM

On 04Apr18 (golly, seems like only yesterday!) you writ:

I know that there is not a shred of evidence to show that the Ukrainian Famine was "man-made" - not one - unless, of course, you have unearthed some
What was happening the the Soviet Union at the time had nothing to do with Communism (again, unless you can cite in the theoretical works that the incompetence and brutality was part of their doctrine- I've never found it and I've read enough about it)

I'm impressed with the depth of your unsupported 'knowledge' of how up to 5 million people died in the breadbasket of the erstwhile Soviet Union. You claim to be no supporter of Stalin yet you are making room all around him to absolve him and his sick government of one of the great crimes of the 20th Century.
You could go here for three different books on the same theme
Your loggorhea of words above is more of a scattergun reply about everything on your, um, pate, but free of a direct response to my comment of a Communist caused episode of mass starvation.

Of course, there was a much larger famine, aided if not caused by The Great Leap Forward which claimed over 30 million souls, (if indeed, asians count as souls to you, we already know you have a problem with joos).

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 04:24 AM

"yet you are making room all around him to absolve him "
No I am not
I've read up fairly closely on the subject and it is as I suggest - there is no evidence that what happened was a deliberate act - not was it caused by a "system" - Stalin was a horrific distortion of an attempt to change the world for the better
THe Russian Revolution arose out of one of the most inhuman acts on the planet - World War One - 41 million casualties (18 million dead and 23 million wounded)
This was a war for dominance and power between Empires - a dividing up of the world to decide who among the most powerful nations should profit from whom
In Britain's case it was a family squabble between related Royal families I believe that that is how history will write it up eventually, as it has so many other such conflicts in the past.
At the time the Russian soldiers decided they had had enough of this butchery that had lost nearly 2 million military. nearly 5 million wounded and 2 and a half million missing - over 9 million in all - all in the interests of a Tzar who had kept his subjects ruthlessly in feudal conditions and had shot them down on the streets when they complained
The soldiers returned home to find two political factions - one who totally opposed the war - the other who wanted them to go back to the front and "we'll sort things out when it's all over"
The winners of that argument, The Bolsheviks, were faced with governing a starving Empire ranging from primitive feudalism in the East to undeveloped capitalism in the West - dificult enough for any system
Then along came the Civil War with and invasion of fourteen western countries who wanted to return things to how they were (some of whom had been sworn enemies during "The Great Imperial war a few years earlier).
That was the situation the new leaders had to face - to turn a whole empire in a totally new direction.
Russia should never have been the first country to have attempted to build the much-needed new society - the war decided that one
Immediately after the war the German people took up arms against the system and took over large swathes of their country - they were eventually defeated, their leaders murdered, German Capitalism financed the Nazis and "we started all over again" - this time with countess millions of deliberate exterminations - Jews, Socialists, Trades Unionists, and those considered to unfit to live in a pure German capitalist society.
Pointing the finger at a momentous abberation like Stalin and ignoring everything else is somewhat myopic, doncha think?
Go look at the bigger picture
I don't here many complaints about the over 1 million war casualties much later in the war of intervention in Vietnam (many caused buy dropping burning petrol on the heads of peasants, or slaughtering them with carcinogenics chemicals)
Acts of inhumanity are acts of inhumanity - whoever carries them out
" we already know you have a problem with joos"
And there you go with your unfounded and unjust accusation of antismitsim
Anybody who associated the slaughter and land seizure that is taking place at present with the Jewish people is an extreme antisemite - and it certainly ain't me   
There is a large donation to charity on offer to anyone who can show a single case of my ever denigrating The Jewish people - no takers so far
Perhaps you would like to make a similar offer - I'd love a crack at that one
Your accusations are not only dishonest but they are despicably cowardly as you don't even attempt to substantiate them
Any mindless cyber-stalking troll can make such accusations - as you, Bobad and Beard Bruce have proved over and over again
Isnt the term ""Joos" antisemitic?
I don't knw, I've never used it - I leave that to the antisemites
For Christ's sake, do you have to bring your antisemitism to yet another thread?
It has no place here - can some passing forum fairy remove this before this troll closes down another thread please (are you there Joe?)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:17 AM

" and I'm off."

just knew it was too good to be true! Jimmies found his paintbox.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:25 AM

"just knew it was too good to be true! Jimmies found his paintbox
Will you stop this
If you can't behave like an adult then leave the adults to it
If you insist of trolling I'll ask that you be removed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:57 AM

Stop posting rubbish and I will no longer treat you as the resident clown. It is very easy!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 06:23 AM

You obviously made an effort to clean upi your act for a time – now you have reverted to your old self of indlting anybody who disagrees with you in undermine arguments you are incapable of challenge
THIS LATEST ONE IS AN OPEN ADMISSION THAT YOU ARE ATTEMPERING TO CENSOR THESE DISCUSSIONS - “STOP POSTING RUBBISH” A PRETTY GOOD REASON TO REQUEST YOUR EXPULSION FROM THIS THREAD I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT
Below is a list of your latest offerings – little evidence of any attempt to debate seriously the subjects you involve yourself in
I haven’t decided whether to put up some of your other abusive epics on an active thread or open a permathread where trolling such as your can be dealt with without interfering with other discussions
Your behaviour is extremely mindless and the fact that you operate from the safety of anonymity and distance makes it cowardly
I don’t believe serious debating forums need people like you and need to rid themselves of your like if they are going to continue to exist
Jim Carroll

From: Iains - PM
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:44 AM
For Shaw from his favourite newspaper:
Sweeping statements from shaw, no evidence to back it up. Now who else does that ad nauseum?
I recommend you get a new hymn book, some of your verses are misleading if not totally erroneous.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:12 PM
Now I think you will agree that had you read and understood what was written by me you would not have made a total ass of yourself now would you?
From: Iains - PM
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:23 PM
Didn't do you much good, did it?
A typical attempted put down by shaw and in particularly bad taste!
From: Iains - PM
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 06:12 AM
Chewing on lemons again. Pure gibberish.
From: Iains - PM
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 04:19 AM
Of course should anyone demand some proof to justify the bizarre statement above, it will be a forlorn hope.
The man is away with the faeries, as per usual. Trying to make a point by gross exaggeration and outright untruths. The only thing he insists on deleting from his nonsense is "once upon a time." and then he has the audacity to wonder why some treat him as a fool.
From: Iains - PM
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 11:34 AM
The world according to little jimmie!
Through the eyes of a child
From: Iains - PM
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 12:27 PM
Present facts and they can be disputed or accepted. Present fabrications, bluster and totally outlandish statements and expect to be ridiculed. Quite easy really.!
From: Iains - PM
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 01:31 PM
Your link has nowt to do with the price of tea in China Laddie.
From: Iains - PM
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 03:56 PM
Go and infest another   thread jimmie. This one was progressing quite well until you started your usual frothing. How many times do different people have to spell things out to you, before you start paying attention. Are you stupid?
From: Iains - PM
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:17 AM
just knew it was too good to be true! Jimmies found his paintbox.
From: Iains - PM
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:57 AM
Stop posting rubbish and I will no longer treat you as the resident clown. It is very easy!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 06:46 AM

Most posting here prefer a semi serious debate on various topics interspersed by the occasional pisstake.
You on the other hand demand that all adhere to your often weird interpretation of events that you back up by "made up shit" and blustering bullying attacks on all who hold a counter view. How many people does it take to tell you this, before you recognise your own failings?
Were I to list all your silly postings, the internet would overload and grind to a halt. Now go away and stop behaving like millenial!


class and diet.
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/87/5/1107/4650128

Modern agriculture and declining crop quality


https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-and-nutrition-loss/

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 08:05 AM

When behaviour like yours is as regular and as abusive as your is transcends "occasional pisstake" and becomes personal and permanent insulting
You appear to have no control on your behaviour "made up shit" I make nothing up and it's's not ssit - it's fully documented and traceable information - the fact that you are unable to deal with it as that is a reflection on you
This is more confirmation that you attempting to censor that which you do agree with
If you have any evidence of my "bullying" produce it, otherwis I suggest you withdraw it and apologise
The yael or so long eaxples of your personally abusive postings is evidence enough of who the bully is here.
You seem to believe that expressing independent contrary opinions is a form of bullying - maybe in your world - not mine
If you continue to presonaly abuse and attept to censor those who disagree with you I will formally put yourt behaviour into teh hands of teh administrators of this site
Stop it now - for all our sakes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 08:14 AM

"If you continue to presonaly abuse and attept to censor those who disagree with you I will formally put yourt behaviour into teh hands of teh administrators of this site
Stop it now - for all our sakes"


And that goes for you as well.


If you keep posting lies about what others have said, you run the risk of others telling the truth about you.
DEAL WITH IT.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 08:24 AM

"And that goes for you as well."
My invitation to Iains goes fro you as well Bruce
I never bully though occasionally I return personal abuse in kind - I ahev never called you a Jew hater even though you hold the Jewish people personally responsible for the ongoing crimes o Israel
Feel free to display my bullying and lying for all the world to see
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 08:40 AM

"even though you hold the Jewish people personally responsible for the ongoing crimes o Israel "

An example of your lies. If you state YOUR OPINION as a statement of fact, YOU ARE LYING- Your statement is as false as your other claims.

BTW, how about that Far-Left support of the Nazis by Ireland? Since YOU state that if ANYONE is not in agreement with you, they must be the extreme end of the political spectrum.

So YOU are as bad as those Leftists. I have just proven BY YOUR LOGIC that YOU support Nazis and the killing of Jews.



"the IRA supported the Nazis, and the Nazis supported the IRA. The IRA helped the Luftwaffe bomb Belfast and Derry.

Hitler would of course have done to Ireland what he did to every other country. In the Wannsee Conference notes of Jan 1942, Ireland's 4,000 Jews were listed for extermination. No doubt Irish quislings would have helped in this, as quislings helped in every other country.

Luckily, the IRA failed in their plans, and the Jews of Ireland were not exterminated. The IRA has still not apologised for this. "


http://markhumphrys.com/sfira.nazis.html

http://markhumphrys.com/IRA/4.JPG

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1538969/Ireland-welcomed-Hitlers-henchmen.html

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 09:22 AM

""I don’t believe serious debating forums need people like you and need to rid themselves of your like if they are going to continue to exist"
Jim Carroll"

This section of Mudcat is entitled BS

OED Definition of bullshit in English:

"bullshit- noun - mass noun - vulgar slang

Stupid or untrue talk or writing; nonsense."

Ill repeat without apology "When will they ever learn , when will they ever learn.
Think about it?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 09:32 AM

The IRA of WWII is not the IRA of post-1969. Feel free to not let facts get in the way.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 09:43 AM

And the fact that someone is NOT a far-Left liberal does not make them Nazis, unless you are Jim Carroll.

HE is the one who brings up information from that period and attaches it to current comments. You have a problem with that, TALK TO HIM.

Feel free not to let reasonable discussion get in the way.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 09:55 AM

Where is your condemnation of Keith's open antisemitism if your concern is for the Jewish People you've been asked for it often enough
You are the one who links the Jewish People to ethnic cleansing and teh shooting down of protesters - not me
"BTW, how about that Far-Left support of the Nazis by Ireland? "
How about it - have you ever seen me support the IRA?
Feel free to prove me wrong, of course
The "far left" in my opinion never supported fascism of any kind - I wouldn't know
I am not a supporter of the "far left" (feel free to show where I am)
Your definition of the term appears to be anybody to the left of Thatcher, Tebbit or Ian Paisley
I have a lifelong interest in politics but I have no connection with any organisation
My concern is for the treatment of human beings (mainly those with no connection in politics)
If I ever joined anything it would probably ne a humanitarian group
THis is little more than mudslinging - do you actually have any evidence that I hold the view you are suggesting I do
It is about as accurate and unsubstantiated as my "antisemitism" - which you have yet to produce a scrap of evidence for
We are now doing Iain's job for him by turning this thread, which has nothing to do with any of this garbage, into a personal slanging match
Produce evedence of your accusations or withdraw them - but do it somewhere else and allow this thread take its own course
Put up or shut up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 10:38 AM

"Where is your condemnation of Keith's open antisemitism if your concern is for the Jewish People you've been asked for it often enough
"
I have seen no such anti-Semitism on the part of Keith- But I have on the part of one Jim Carroll, and noted it many times.



"You are the one who links the Jewish People to ethnic cleansing and teh shooting down of protesters - not me
"
No, YOU are the one who has stated that- I have not done so- But IMO YOU have done so many times.


"BTW, how about that Far-Left support of the Nazis by Ireland?
How about it - have you ever seen me support the IRA?"

YOU have stated that I support Nazis- YET I CHALLENGE YOU to find anywhere where I have done so?
Not the IRA, but the far left on many occasions. The post was that the Far Left supported Nazis- , you have demonstrated a Left bias in most if not all of your remarks- So by YOUR standards, you are tarred by the same brush of the worst of those Leftists, regardless of any stated support- YOU have established this as the standard YOU apply, so it is only fair to apply it to you as well.




"Feel free to prove me wrong, of course"

I believe that I have done so, many times and here as well.



"The "far left" in my opinion never supported fascism of any kind - I wouldn't know"

Try learning to read OTHER peoples posts instead of telling everyone else what YOU imagine they think or support ( If I have done so here about YOU, I am just applying the standards YOU use on others to you, a fair debating tactic.)
"Sinn Fein / IRA, being hard leftists, like to call their opponents "fascists". And indeed there is some truth in it, as regards the hard-core loyalists at least. But SF-IRA are not the people to criticise.

The IRA supported the Nazis in WW2 (the real ones, not just rhetorical ones). They ran safe houses for Nazi spies, aided Nazi intelligence, and even helped Nazi bombers. They planned to bring about a Nazi German invasion of Ireland, and would no doubt have been installed as a quisling government had Germany occupied Ireland. "



"I am not a supporter of the "far left" (feel free to show where I am)"

That is NOT what your posts indicate. You defend the Left at all times, and regard Stalin as a friend to all starving Ukrainians!


"Your definition of the term appears to be anybody to the left of Thatcher, Tebbit or Ian Paisley"

In the US, Bernnie is Far Laft- I am actualy a Centrist ( Politically conservative, socially liberal, close to Libertarian)
YOUR definition of anyone to the right of Hillary Clinton is that they are Nazis.



"I have a lifelong interest in politics but I have no connection with any organisation"

That is a wonderful thing- a pity you cannot allow others to have the same privileges you are claiming. MY opinions are my own. Yet you make STATEMENTS about me, made up in your tiny little mind, as if they were facts.



"My concern is for the treatment of human beings (mainly those with no connection in politics)"

Then I think you do a piss-poor job in trying to find consensus by your declaring that any who disagree withYOU are NOT concerned as well.




"If I ever joined anything it would probably ne a humanitarian group"

And would they teach you that aggressive attacks on others is not the best way to get people to even listen to you?



"THis is little more than mudslinging - do you actually have any evidence that I hold the view you are suggesting I do"

Yes. your posts are mainly that- on occasion, you bring up information I was unaware of ( for which I thANK YOU)- but IT IS BURIED IS SO MUCH BILE AND SHIT IT IS HARD TO FIND.



"It is about as accurate and unsubstantiated as my "antisemitism" - which you have yet to produce a scrap of evidence for"

BY THE STANDARDS YOU HAVE APPLIED TO OTHERS I HAVE PROVEN IT MANY TIMES OVER.



"We are now doing Iain's job for him by turning this thread, which has nothing to do with any of this garbage, into a personal slanging match
"
YOU are the one who never discusses facts, but makes statements about others that are false, and then argue from them.



"Produce evedence of your accusations or withdraw them - but do it somewhere else and allow this thread take its own course"

YOU have been given the proof many times, but refuse to even look at it- you just attack anyone who presents what YOU do not want to look at, instead of debating the facts.



"Put up or shut up"

I have put up- now will you SHUT UP, or at least stop the personnel attacks and presumptions that YOU are God Almighty, and know what everyone else is and/or should be thinking? Your understanding of other's beliefs, and reasons for their views is sadly lacking.


Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 10:47 AM

"or shut up"   I dare you!! It will be an insurmountable challenge.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 11:11 AM

"I have seen no such anti-Semitism on the part of Keith- But I have on the part of one Jim Carroll, and noted it many times."
I raise it twice before the Last Israeli thread was closed I have raised it several times in the past - no response on any occasion
If you are not blatantly lying you will now produce antisemitism from me
You are now openly and rather desperately and openly lying - about my position and about your own
"YOU have been given the proof many times"
See what I mean - where have you - what are your examples?
Can't be that hard to find if there are that many
You have put up a pack of lies here (prove they are not) but I very much doubt if you will shut up.
If my facts are not facts - disprove them - that's what we are supposed to be here for
Won't hold my breath for anything here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 11:25 AM

Don't take too log - none of us are getting any younger
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 11:30 AM

Jim,
"I raise it twice before the Last Israeli thread was closed I have raised it several times in the past - no response on any occasion"

There have been many times that you have been called out on anti-Semitism. That YOU refuse to answer is YOUR problem, not mine.


I stated that YOUR comment that BECAUSE MY STATEMENT was interpreted by you (in a false way,) that the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT had a specific policy.

As an American Jew, with NO connection to Israel, I take that as saying that YOU BELIEVE any Jew represents some nebulous organization. THAT MAKES YOU AN ANTI-SEMITE.

You are the one who says this.

My statements are not lies- but it would be up to YOU to prove that they were. Why should I disprove YOUR lies when you do not disprove my statements, but insist I must prove them ( while you insist on disproof of your statements. I give you the SAME standards YOU have set upon others. The burden YOU place on others applies to you as well.


"You have put up a pack of lies here (prove they are not) but I very much doubt if you will shut up." So very true of one Jim Carroll.
We could only wish that you would hold your breath.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 11:35 AM

Fer chrissake, Jim, ignore him. He's out for trouble, not for a conversation. We've had the mods in already. Do what we're doing with Keith - just talk past him.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 11:42 AM

Mr Shaw,

I was just answering Mr Carroll's lies about me- I would certainly give even you the chance to reply to libelous statements that are not supported by any facts.

Or is asking for the same rights for myself that you would insist on for yourself now prohibited?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 11:43 AM

"There have been many times that you have been called out on anti-Semitism"
By you and Bobad - now Robo
None of you have come yup with one single example despite the facy=t that my offer has been open for several years now - not one single taker from any of you
" I take that as saying that YOU BELIEVE any Jew represents some nebulous organization"
I most certainly do not - it is you who I=identify the actions of an organisation (in this case, the Israeli Government) with the Jewish people
I have associated with Jewish people for most of my life - nearly married one once until I fell out with her holocaust survivor mother who called the Israeli Government of the time "a bunch of fascists"
It turns ut she was right and I was wrong - we live and learn
"but it would be up to YOU to prove that they were."
No it's not Yours has always been a blanket accusation of antisemitism - you have never once provided an example of my being an antisemite - you are not doing so now
As I said - none of us are getting any younger
Where are your examples - you said there were plenty of them?
Ho hum - this really is becoming very boring
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 11:44 AM

BTW,

But coming to Jim's logical conclusions needs a more solid set of premises than he currently has to hand, unfortunately.

Finally, do keep it civil between us. You're getting a bit too sarky-out-loud. Calling my opinions crap or rubbish doesn't make them any more so than they may already be.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 11:50 AM

my offer has been open for several years now - not one single taker from any of you

I took you up on it right in this thread.


""There have been many times that you have been called out on anti-Semitism"
By you and Bobad - now Robo"

So you will only accept being called out by someone who, like yourself, is an anti-Semite? And YOUR statement admits that YOU HAVE BEEN CALLED OUT PREVIOUSLY.


"I most certainly do not - it is you who I=identify the actions of an organisation (in this case, the Israeli Government) with the Jewish people "

Two lies in one sentence- one of them libelous.


"I have associated with Jewish people for most of my life"

And I have associated with Liberals. So you have proven what?



Keep it up,Mr Carroll. Every post proves my points.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 12:38 PM

Nothing then ?
Didn't think so for a minute
"So you will only accept being called out by someone who, like yourself, is an anti-Semite? "
Not at all - I will not accept being called one by a bunch of Trolls
You are the only people on this forum (and in my life) who have ever called me one
When someone makes such a serious charge I expect a shred of evidence - none forthcoming
"Two lies in one sentence- one of them libelous."
I have never lke the Jewish People with the actions of the Israeli Government - you have
You are doing exactly that now
My only criticisms regarding the Palestinians have been aimed at the Israeli REgime - it has never been a "Jewish" problem for me, in fact I have linked to many dozens of Jews throughout the world who share my sentiments - including the ex-directors of Mossad who were interviewer for the film THE GATEKEEPERS ,

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 12:55 PM

So anyone who calls you out is a troll?



You have lost. Just squirm away, and stop making up lies about other people.


"I have never lke the Jewish People with the actions of the Israeli Government - you have
When someone makes such a serious charge I expect a shred of evidence - none forthcoming"


"I have never lke the Jewish People with the actions of the Israeli Government - you have
You are doing exactly that now"


How, by stating that YOU have said
04 Apr 18 - 01:38 PM

"That certainly is a far-Left viewpoint. Thank you for presenting it. "

"So holocaust survivors no longer have a say in Israel if they don't embrace extremist right politics
Thank you for confirming that thais has nothing to do with either the Jewish peoplem or humanitarianism
What a hatefully inhuman remark and what a wonderful way to commemorate six million dead remark"

Your read of what someone calling a viewpoint far Left is indicative of a certain lack of... reason? HOW DOES MY STATEMENT mean anything like what YOU state?



" I expect a shred of evidence "

Too bad. When YOU provide it for others, you might be obliged. YOUR opinion does not count as fact. Nor do your sentiments.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 01:01 PM

Didn't finish
Jewish nurse ELLEN SEIGAL , the HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS who have called for a boycott of Israeli goods because of their massacre of Gazans - not forgetting the old holocause survivor you despicably described as "far left"
"So anyone who calls you out is a troll?"
Nope - anybody who conisytently lies as oyu have is a troll
"Too bad. "
Too bad - is right
Now - that "antisemitism" you accuse me of - any nearer to finding any
No?
Of course you haven't - you invented it
You said you have produced itt in the past - where is it?
Finished here, I think - have allowed you to expose your own dishonesty - job done
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 01:07 PM

"HOW DOES MY STATEMENT mean anything like what YOU state?"
The old man was not an extreme left winger and his views were most certaingly not left winbg - what he said has been repeated throught world Jewish communities of all political shades and none at all
What you said was an disgusting attempt to smear a holocaust survivor because of what he said
THat is whet makes you what you are, just as what he said makes him the human being he was
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 01:25 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3DcChXNyYQ

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 01:50 PM

About you leel I would say Iains
Have you given up the idea of being taken seriously completely ?
That's pathetic - even for you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 02:12 PM

Jim:

From your errant attempt at JTH (Justifying Thru History):

The soldiers returned home to find two political factions - one who totally opposed the war - the other who wanted them to go back to the front and "we'll sort things out when it's all over"
The winners of that argument, The Bolsheviks, were faced with governing a starving Empire ranging from primitive feudalism in the East to undeveloped capitalism in the West - dificult enough for any system
Then along came the Civil War with and invasion of fourteen western countries who wanted to return things to how they were

You conveniently left out that there were two Russian revolutions: The first, in February installed a democratic government with multiple parties and a president (Kerensky). It was a messy situation, the First World War and all that, but it got deadlier when the Bolsheviks (as you euphemistically call them the 'winners in that argument') overthrew the multi-party government in the violent October revolution (and went on naming streets, places, and teddy bears 'October' ever after).

Communism was ALWAYS about violence. And it has starved tens of millions.

You conveniently have not addressed, as the Commuists never addressed, the extraodinary post War famine in the land that was ameliorated by American intervention and the organizational skills of Herbert Hoover. This was what brought me into this thread in the first place. Your mental goose-step to the perverted Commie legend you espouse brought forth your vaunted 'history lesson'. You are a true thread threat with no off switch.

Have you thought of getting a Twitter account. It would be fun to tune you in with Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:27 PM

"You conveniently left out that there were two Russian revolutions!
No I didn't - it hadn't anything to do with the argument
The soldiers had no intention of going back to the war by that time they had been joined by the workers and peasants who were equally determined not to continue with the war - the country had by then reached starvation point due to the shortages
The debates that lasted several days were decided on by the fact that the Leaders were divided a and the Bolsheviks won
The only supporters of returning to the Front were the officer Class - the Kadets, who were routed from The Winter palace in St Petersberg (later Leningrad - been there!!) but the masses of workers and soldiers
All this is weell documented , but the best account is by American reporter, John Reed, who gives a superb eye-witness account along with many of the debates in his highly readable 'Ten Days That Shook the World' later made into a Hollywood epic 'Reds' by Warren Beatty in 1981
The Civil War that followed was started by the right who wished to return to teh old feudal system - it was backed by fourteen countries including Germany, Britain Japan, France and the US
The outside espionage that went on in the following period to bring the Soviets down reached television mini-series status with 'Reilly, Ace of Spies', based on a real spy's memoures
The rest of your posting is Cold-War garbage - poverty and violence was largely caused by opposition to attempts to change society in countries that had starved for centuries (You mentioned China - try the writings of William Hinton for a description of pre-revolutionary China)
The supreme example of outside influence was the quarter-century Vietnamese war - first Japan, then France and finally fourteen years of chemical warfare by an army that proposed to "Nuke the Slants back into the Stone-age" General Westmoreland)
Go read a book and shake Joe McCarthy off your back - you seem never to have graduated beyond GI Joe and The Blackhawks comics
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:47 PM

Writted like the dedicated apparatchick you are.

News Flash:
John Reed was not a historian. He WAS a dupe. The movie 'Reds' was not a documentary.

Many fairly bright people were sucked into the hope for a better society represented by such movements as Nihilism, Socialism, and, yes, Communism. If they were bright enough, lived long enough, and were honest enough, they produced works of literature such as "We","The God That Failed", "Animal Farm", "1984", etc.

Just for you, Jim, many of the brightest were not exactly fans of The West or Capitalism either. There's plenty of evil for everyone. But the Communist Evil was its insistence on mind control. In this it exactly imitated the Nazi evil. So elegantly captured by Orwell in his essay on Newspeak.

As Reinaldo Arenas said: "In one of my first statements after leaving Cuba I had declared that the difference between the communist and capitalist systems is that, although both give you a kick in the ass, in the communist system you have to applaud, while in the capitalist system you can scream, And I came here to scream."

Another bit of more real history as opposed to Jim Carrol casuistory:
Socialists weren't really innit. The Communists opposed the more reasonable, i.e. democratic approach of Socialists, and labeled the Socialists Mensheviks which meant 'minority' as opposed to labeling themselves Bolsheviks which meant 'greater/majority' party. This was opposite to the facts, there were more Socialists than Communists in reality.

The identification of Communism, as with Nazism is the insistence on flouting reality and human nature, and doing it with violence. And having no hesitation in lying about it.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 07:57 PM

As I said - there are many accounts of the Russian Revolution - Reeds is the mostt respected and he was an eye witness as he had been previously in the Mexican Revolution
He did not need to be duped - he was there
Perhaps you might point me to a more reliable account - no? - thoought not !!
You are taking Iain's position of proving any moron can deny uncomfortable facts
"Mensheviks"
You mean the ones that wanted the soldiers to return to the front, of course
What are your facts - you have just vomited out Establishment Cold War propaganda so far.
While I have your ear
I've just re-posted Keith's defence of British wartime antisemitism on the Labour thread
Care to comment?
Won't hold my breath again - I'm already holding it for your proof of my antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 08:32 PM

Jim:

I've already answered your post on that other thread. Time travel? I specifically went into one of the reasons I pegged you as not being fond of a certain religious minority. And I don't require you to hold your breath. Maybe a light lunch with a Russian official? NO! Just Kidding!

As for witnesses of the time, how about people who were not foreigners visiting for a few days but real Russians who lived the experience. I kind of like "Dr. Zhivago" by Pasternak not intended as a history but in itself a historical artifact of Revolutionary times. And I am not holding out the wonderful movie as anything other than an an artifact of how yummie Julie Christie looked in the 60s.

Bulgakov wrote short stories with snatches of real life being lived in the years just after the Revolution. He had to survive Soviet censors and wrote one of the great Christian novels of all time: "The Master and Margarita" which most Russians today are aware of. When one of your characters is a talking three foot tall feline named Beelzebub people tend to remember the book. He was allowed to live and not sent to a Gulag for one reason. Stalin liked him.

Or I could mention that real actual Russians I've met over the years. One lovely fellow who survived the Siege of Leningrad because he was quite overweight when it started.

Mensheviks and Bolsheviks: I went to one site to come up with this :
"Both groups were enthusiasts for the destruction of capitalism and the overthrow of the Tsarist regime, but the Mensheviks, led by Martov, favoured a large, loosely organised democratic party whose members could agree to differ on many points. They were prepared to work with the liberals in Russia and they had scruples about the use of violence. The Bolsheviks, led by Lenin, were hardline revolutionaries who would not have known a scruple if it bought them a drink."

As for Bolshe and Menshe meaning 'more' or 'less', I took Russian in school. Wonderful wonderful language.

Sounds like one of your lot (UK) wrote that last bit, eh?
????? ????????

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 09:03 PM

I've just read your appallingly dishonest reply appeasing antisemitism by first cliiming not to understand it then, when it was unnecessarily explained to you, refusing to condemn because it came from a fellow extremist right winger
I think we're finished here - I'll leave you to wallow in your using the Jewish People as human targets to defend Israeli state terrorism (more deaths today, I'm sure you'll be delighted to hear
As I said - at least you will never be able to accuse me of being an antisemite again (not if you have an self respect for yourself
Bye-ee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Apr 18 - 06:53 PM

JC:
Hmmmm. Seems you want to stay personal after my postings which were on target to the Subject name of this thread (Its right above this window, it says "On the cause of Famines".

You seem to take your own version of the old maxim which you now interpret:

When the disagreeable post pertains to facts and arguments, ignore the facts and arguments.
When the disagreeable post gets personal (on the other thread) DOUBLE DOWN, declare yourself the winner and anyone who disagrees with you to be- well evil, and ignore the facts and arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 03:03 AM

"When the disagreeable post pertains to facts and arguments, ignore the facts and arguments."
I have put down the facts as I believe them to be
I have read the subject fairly thoroughly - at present I'm halfway through Simon Sebag Montefiore's Stalin (talking book version) - hardly a fan of the Soviet Union, his work is packed with information
Montefiore it virulently anti-Soviet, but he virtually skips over the famine and in no way claims that it was anything more than a blunder - certainly not used as a deliberate ploy to solve a political problem as was the Irish Famine half a century earlier.
You obviously have read nothing on the subject - you quote nothing other than a hastily scooped-up history blog that totally ignores the reason for the Russian Revolution - the Imperial war that virtually decimated the Youth of many countries in pursuit of territory and political influence - a war created by capitalism that wiped out far more human beings that Stalin could ever have managed in his lifetime   
You describe Reed as a "dupe" yet you are obviously totally unaware that his book was totally disapproved of in Stalin's Soviet Union
I suggest you go and read it (or anything) before you make such ill-informed statements

I get sick to the back teeth of being insulted by read-nothing, know nothing people like you and your ill-mannered, ill-brought-up friend Iains, whose sole objective seems to be to defend a system that aimed to wipe out the very people we have been arguing about elsewhere - the Jewish Peole
You talk of the Horrors of Communist Russia - how about the horrors of Industrial Capitalist Germany which deliberately sent six million Jews to their deaths and, if they had not been defeated, would have wiped out the rest?
Taking your arguments to their logical conclusion - if it was communism that cased the Ukrainian deaths, then it was Capitalism that caused the attempted total extermination of the Jewish People
It's not as simple as that obviously, to me anyway.

I've already mentioned the appeasement of Hitler by Britain and America - you choose to ignore that, as appears to be the way you handle all difficult subjects - that particular conflagration, which enabled Hitler to carry out his genocidal policy, might have been prevented if he had been stood up to earlier
My father and his family were horrified by the stories from Jewish neighbours at what was happening in Germany, so they took to the streets to oppose Mosley's Blackshirts - my grandmother was arrested for hitting Mosley with a stone.
My dad volunteered to fight in Spain - he saw Franco as part of the creeping menace of fascism.
He was wounded, captured and spent over a year in a Spanish prison.
When he came home he found he had been blacklisted from work by MI5 as a "premature anti-fascist" (he was excommunicated from his church at the same time)
He was forced to become a navvy in order to feed his wife and children - I didn't see him regularly till he was ten      
It gets up my nose somewhat when appeasers of antisemitism like you accuse me of hating Jews until I realise what you really are, then it becomes a compliment

I have always been interested in European political history, but it was never a sedentary armchair interest
In my twenties I spent a deal of time exploring Europe, travelling by my thumb in many cases
I visited Russia, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Yugoslavia - I crossed Poland and East Germany, not stopping
I got a chance to talk to some of the people and hear what they had to say (unlike Britain - most countries I visited spoke other languages)
When I was in Russia I was asked as a visitor to say a few words at the unveiling of an anniversary plaque at a former Jewish detention center/slave camp created by the Nazis during WW2
Me and a mate thumbed into Czechoslovakia on the morning the Russians re-opened the border after the invasion
We spent a fascinating week with students who had taken part in the demonstrations - we hung out with Vietnamese students on leave from the war and went up to the parke where the Russian troops were billeted to argue with the soldiers, alongside our new-found mates
We saw none of your oppressed slaves, but people who still had the socialist dream but wanted to do it their way.
That dream was still very much alive in the Sixties - everywhere we visited

As far as arguments I have had about Ireland
I have read up on that quite a lot - again, not an armchair exercise.
My family were Famine refugees who were able to settle in Liverpool because my great Grandfather was a merchant seaman and could find work
My father's sister's family were burned out of their Derry home by anti-catholic rioters and were forced to flee to the safety of the Republic
Much of my father's left-humanist approach to life and his desire to educate himself and us was inspired by his family history and experiences
So please do not dismiss me as an unread, inexperienced ignoramus - come back when you've read something and been somewhere
That goes for your abuse-hurling brain dead friend
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 03:08 AM

" till he was ten "
"Till I was ten", but use my typo if it is a help - it seems to be the level you operate on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 04:32 AM

"So please do not dismiss me as an unread, inexperienced ignoramus"
Why not?
My grandfather was a RFC pilot in WW1, my father a RAF pilot in WW2.
I claim no special knowledge of fighter pilots as a result.
So just how does your family history give you the unique insights that you claim? Is is a form of interfamily osmosis or telepathy that this knowledge is derived from, or merely a subterfuge to claim false credibility?
Personally I find the argument arrant nonsense, but you resort to it frequently. Any fool can read a book. Understanding the content is more of a challenge, even more so when attempting to verify the content.

I feel if you need to bring family history into the equation to add credibility to your claims, then your argument is becoming very thin.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 04:58 AM

So ?
You have, of course, read the books and can put me right
No?
Thought not!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 05:22 AM

That is not the point I am making Jim. For any fact there are alternative viewpoints. You are totally unable to appreciate that fact, judging by the way you post. When it comes to Historical "facts", the degree of veracity that can be attached to them varies. For some supposed facts there are simply too many disparate strands revolving around said facts that consensus, not necessarily truth, drives the argument. The more complex the fact the more strands to consider.
Your simplistic attitude towards the causes of the great famine are typical. You will get few adherents by focusing blame on one or two individuals or political factions. The reality is that it was largely a child of it's time. Today response would be global, if there was the will.
The coalition politiciens and their populations carefully look away from the ensuing crisis in the Yemen caused by Saudi and her allies.
The famine since spring 2017 is threatening over 17 million people; over 3.3 million children and pregnant or lactating women suffer from acute malnutrition. This is happening today, not in some dusty history book. Where is your protest???

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 05:40 AM

"For any fact there are alternative viewpoints."
If you wish to argue you need to put those facts up
If yo7u haven't read any books on the subject, which appears to be the case, then you have no argument
My "simplistic " view of the famine is far from that
Until the 150thth aniversery of the Famine in the 1990s there was only one major study - by an Englishwoman
Since then there has been a landslide of works on the subject - the leading figure again being a woman - Christine Keneally
It was during this landslide that the Trevelyan letter and other information emerged about the fact that it was far more than mismanagement and natural disaster that caused a million to die
Go read something -
Regarding teh Yemen - perhaps you'd care to comment that the fighter jets recently sold to the Saudis are quite likely to be used there, just as similar sales have been used in other genocidal wars
The sale of he instruments of death are now an essential part of the British economy
All of this almost sinks Stalin's behaviour into insignificance, but you people in your crusade to 'Save the System' never care to give that a thought - first or second
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 05:50 AM

Perhaps Guido Fawkes might help!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 07:18 AM

"I have put down the facts as I believe them to be"
Therein lies the problem. Others believe the facts to tell a different story. You believe you have the equivalent of papal   infallibility?
Rather an arrogant position to take I believe! Sometimes your beliefs stretch the credulity of your most fervent supporters(if you have any)

What makes you so sure I have read no books on the subject? Perhaps my knowledge is far deeper than yours?
Perhaps you spend too much time sniping at all things British and it distorts any rational thinking by you.
You assume you are some superior being posting here to guide us all to the truth.. Tale it from me. You are deluded!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 07:49 AM

" Others believe the facts to tell a different story. "
You keep saying this - until you produce these "facts for debate you can repeat this allusion until you are blue in the arse
"What makes you so sure I have read no books on the subject?"
Fairly obvious, otherwise you would have overwhelmed me with you eloquentness!
" Perhaps my knowledge is far deeper than yours?"
Perhaps my jack's a kipper if it is, show it with intelligent debate rather than infantile name-calling
"sniping at all things British "
Playing the "racist" card weakens rather than strengthens your case - can you really not come up with anything better than this old-hat garbage?
"You assume you are some superior being "
More dishonest name - calling - giver my regards to the Titanic when your arguments bump into her
"You are deluded!"
Yeh - well!!
I'll have to take your word for that, won't I - you appear to have nothing else
I suggest you dredge yup some of the old arguments with Keith and Teribus - they didn't make much headway either, but there's a lorra-lorra documented evidence to read through
What do you hope to achieve with this shadow-boxing?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 08:11 AM

The psychological reasons why people dwell in the past are infinite and varied, although they all come down to the fact that people unconsciously fear and simultaneously seek to master certain life events that trouble them. By repeating troublesome life events over and over again, and staying mentally, spiritually, and emotionally fixated on these past life events, people are able to work toward mastery, much as a young child works toward mastery of his or her times tables by practicing them again and again.
There are rare instances when it is necessary for a person to get some kind of help in overcoming the past life events that troubled them. But generally, fixation on events that happened in the past is a choice. Repeating the same plot is also a choice, even if it is not a conscious one. And although such judgment may sound harsh, the reality is that since it is a choice to dwell in the past, people who have a habit of dwelling in the past are blessed with the wonderful alternative of choosing something different, but do they take the alternative?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 09:26 AM

Not sure where that is aimed or heading Kenny
You decide where you want to go by knowing where you've been and, if these are the wrong places, choose not to go there again.
I am of the opinion that our society is in terminal nosedive - I believe a fairer one is needed but at present it is heading in the opposite direction.
As Trotsky once wrote "Whither England" (not a Trot by the way, just find some of what he said maid sense)
Personally, history, particularly social history is very much a part of my understanding the music (song) that takes up so much of my life still
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 09:37 AM

If the cap fits?

I tend to recognise the lessons of the past but live in the present, warts and all

btw I was accused , on my own doorstep would you believe , by a Jehovas Witness, of being an f'n optimist

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 09:57 AM

Incidentally Kenny
Regarding the Famine; one of the most intriguing thing for me is the way the Irish now handle it.
As I pointed out earlier, up to the 90s there was only one book which examined the subject closely; Mrs Cecil Woodham Smith's 'The Great Hunger', largely because the Irish didn't wish to upset their nearest neighbours by digging up old bones as they still needed a place to go when they couldn't get work at home.
The Celtic Tiger eased up this concern a little and the 150th anniversary was an opportunity to explore in detail as important aspect of history that had lain locked in a cupboard for so long.
Ireland's history is very much a part of its national identity which, I believe, is still being sought (Irish language is another of these)
I find very little rancour over the new findings - the Irish are a pretty friendly lot to most people (apart from Travellers unfortunately)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 10:51 AM

"Playing the "racist" card weakens rather than strengthens your case"

While you continue to play the clown. Have you any idea what the word racist means? You scatter it about in your various diatribes like confetti. Is it an incantation that is supposed to stifle all further argument?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 11:07 AM

I'm sure you know the publishing process Jim
Publishers commission books they can sell at a given time aimed at a specific audience written by credible? sources.
In the editing of a book a slant is given to the content, just like in Mudcat, which will sell more books to a hungry audience.
The balance in "Anniversary" books is rare, if it was balanced the literary press would label it a whitewash and the book wouldn't sell the same numbers.

Do YOU accept anything on Mudcat at face value, I certainly don't, too many agendas and not all of them hidden

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 11:39 AM

"Have you any idea what the word racist means?"
You suggested I argued the way I do because I hate Britain - your were causing me of racism
It's become as popular as "antisemitism" to use it to offset criticism
"I'm sure you know the publishing process Jim "
Nothing to do with what I'm talking about Kenny.
The fiftieth and centenary years of the famine produced nothing worth talking about regarding the Famine
I would guess that a combination of the Troubles, the move towards a Peace agreement and Ireland's new-found prosperity (now sadly naused up by the banks) did the trick here.
The same has happened with the 1916 Uprising centenary - a tsunami of seriously rehearsed works
In the next few years we have the gaining of Independence (sort of) to look forward to.
This really is new ground being broken
I would guess that the huge rise in popularity of Irish traditional music is very much part of all this
No - I certainly don't accept everything on this forum (not without question), but I have learned a great deal from people (at least those who know how to put forward their arguments without the torrent of personal abuse (no names - no pack drill)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 11:56 AM

A political answer Jim full of content that I don't dispute that you have written of many many times.

My post related to the publishing process and the balance of reading material.

My scepticism of published accounts are of a friend and neighbour who was killed by a bus going home on his way from the our cub pack on a foggy night .... put off the published word at the age of 10

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 12:49 PM

"I don't dispute that you have written of many many times."
Actually I haven't Kenny
I find rational arguments like yours force me to put random thoughts I have arrived at in the course of our researches into a rational form - as far as
I'm concerned, debating at its most useful
"My scepticism of published accounts "
One of the effects of these anniversaries is the blossoming of local history societies
I could probably be out half a dozen times a month listening to speakers on subjects that interest me - especially as we live about ten miles from The Burren, which if full of Bronze-Age sites - Meadeval Churches, ring forts, passage graves, Tower Houses at al.
Hope you don't live in the present too deeply not to enjoy these!
Belief in the fairies among the previous has been the savior of Irish archaeology
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 12:49 PM

Jim,
Until the 150thth aniversery of the Famine in the 1990s there was only one major study - by an Englishwoman

That would be Cecil Woodham-Smith.

Since then there has been a landslide of works on the subject - the leading figure again being a woman - Christine Keneally

Yes. Here she is on the famine,
"To a large extent, the popular understanding of the Famine in Ireland still follows a traditional, nationalist paradigm. Within this model, ‘blame’ is generally attributed to key groupings, either within the British government or within the landlord class. To some extent, these beliefs were fostered by the state school system south of the border, which itself arose out of particular historical circumstances."

" Accordingly, in many Irish schools, a heroic but simplistic view of Irish history emerged, a morality story replete with heroes and villains. This approach, however, was subsequently challenged by the Irish academic establishment. In the 1930s, a number of leading Irish academics—following the lead of British historians earlier in the century—set an agenda for the study of Irish history, which placed it on a more professional and scientific basis in terms of research methods and source materials. At the same time this approach also demanded the systematic revision and challenging of received wisdoms or unquestioned assumptions. What was specific to Ireland, however, was the declared mission to challenge received nationalist myths, "

"The arguments regarding the role of the British government are not sustainable. In the summer of 1847, in the wake of the almost total second failure of the potato crop, the British government established soup kitchens throughout Ireland. At the peak of this scheme, over three million people, that is, forty per cent of the population, were receiving free rations of food daily from the soup kitchens (which, even by the standard of contemporary famines, is a tremendous logistical achievement). To make this possible, a comprehensive and nation-wide machinery was created within Ireland in the space of only a few months. As a consequence of this scheme, mortality began to fall as, for the first and only time during the Famine, the problem of hunger was confronted directly."

What she says about Woodham-Smith,
"Popular books on the Famine, notably those by Cecil Woodham-Smith and Robert Kee, which have placed suffering at the heart of the Famine, have been derided or dismissed by many within the academic establishment, although not, it has to be said, by the general reading public. The Great Hunger by Woodham Smith has sold almost sixty thousand hard back copies, making it the best-selling Irish history book of all time. Irish academics, with the honourable exception of Cormac Ó Gráda, have been less enthusiastic. Roy Foster, an influential revisionist, in an article optimistically entitled ‘We are all revisionists now’, pejoratively described Woodham Smith as ‘a zealous convert’, whilst, in 1964, a question in an undergraduate history examination paper in University College Dublin stated ‘The Great Hunger is a great novel. Discuss’."
https://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/beyond-revisionism-reassessing-the-great-irish-famine/

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 12:53 PM

Note the correct spelling, Kinealy.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 01:00 PM

First and last word to you here on this Keith
We really have been hear before
Hastily grabbed cut-'n-pastes from whoever says the right thing really doesn't hack it any more
No historian has been "derided and damaged" - that's not how history works
You take the sum total of researches from the past and add them to new findings - history is not based on the competition ethic you take for all your arguments
History is, and always should have been a sharing of ideas, not a 'Top-of-the-Pops' what'ts n and what's out game
Over and out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 01:01 PM

Hoops gentlemen Hoops.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 01:03 PM

Not a hasty cut and paste Jim, but extracts from a learned article by an historian you referenced, with a link provided.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 01:05 PM

"She love you Yeah, yeah, yeah"

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 01:10 PM

Spot on Jim!!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 01:30 PM

Just noticed he's managed to close the last thread - make sure he doesn't do the same here
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 01:34 PM

A typical response from our resident bigot. It is the not word according to the world of jimmie, therefore it must be wrong.
The Great Hunger: Ireland 1845-1849 by Cecil Woodham-Smith was not an altogether welcome event. Perhaps they envied the book’s commercial success: The Great Hunger was immediately a best-seller on two continents, and its premier status as the most widely read Irish history book of all time has only grown with the years.
BUT

https://www.historyireland.com/the-famine/the-great-famine-and-its-interpreters-old-and-new/

There is a political divide and radically changed social mores since the great famine. Separating all these out to get a balanced picture is no easy task.Arguing the rights and wrongs can go on forever. Mistakes were made. Was the treatment of Irish immigrants in America
blemish free? Should this not be a part of the discussion also?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 03:10 PM

More random grabs Iains
I suggest you look at the date of that one - about 10/15 years before the publication of the Trevelyan letter describing the Famine as "God's Punishment'
Things have moved on considerably since then
The article show no new research, just an opinion based on what little was available at the time
That was one of Keith's early letter on the thread where he described Irish children to have been "brainwashed to hate Britain"
"A typical response from our resident bigot."
I have no intenion of carrying on a discussion with soeone whose every other word is "liar"
Feel free to talk to him if that's your inclination - I've had him up to the gunwales
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 03:31 PM

At least we're back to talking about famines. But logic dear Jim Carrol is another affair. You happen to be reading a book about Stalin that doesn't go into the famine THEREFORE the famine wasn't a 'thing' and wasn't caused by Soviet perfidy, i.e. collectivization and persecution of the 'Kulaks' as I believe you yourself mentioned in an earlier post? You must think you have the flexibility of a snake bending all around those ideological corners. I think your version of being well-informed is to further entrench yourself in your pre-existing ideological framework.

Ideology doesn't feed people. Food feeds people.

The estimates of deaths in the Ukraine famine is well over 5 million.
I don't think anyone in this thread has mentioned the estimated 2 million Cambodians who perished due to the Khmer Rouge. Entirely created by the leadership.
In the modern era there seem to be famines wherever the Communists have had durable control of a country. Venezuela is shaping up as the next venue.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 04:00 PM

Trevelyan's words
The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated. …The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people.

And the welcome they got when they sought refuge in Britain

A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.

"The estimates of deaths in the Ukraine famine is well over 5 million. ""
Around half the figure of Congolese at the hands of Imperial "Gallant little Belgium" in pursuit of rubber for King Leopld
The number that had their hands cut off for not meeting their quota has never been calculated
And a tiny fraction of the young man who died for the acquisition of territory in WW1
One mans atrocity is another's matter of indifference I suppose

Worked out those "complicated postings" yet Robo?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 04:12 PM

You have not done much to explicate your longer multi purpose postings. And your most recent one above is a combination of one maleficent writer's screeds with various different historical occurrences which makes a chaos of all details. Your attitude is very much Trump-like in that you seize upon any thing at any time to obfuscate the issue. Which makes your own postings vis-a-vis the Irish famine ludicrous.

For the record, and mentioned elsewhere in Mudcat, King Leopold's horrendous legacy in the Congo was primarilly his alone. The 'Belgian' Congo was HIS possession. Gallant Little Belgium wasn't innit.

The Communist legacies in Russia, China, North Korea, Cambodia, and now Venezuela were cases of organizational imposition of theory over practice "the imposed or planned economy", and a consistent refusal to learn from mistakes. And an all-too-usual resort to state violence to impose the will of a minority of powerful people in the guise of a ruling party where only one party was allowed to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 07:29 PM

"the Congo was primarily his alone. "
He was Emperor of Belgium, Belgium as a nation was made aware of it and did nothing to stop him (via the writing and speeches of Maar Twain and others) they took over what was left of his holdings after a scouser shipping clerk showed him up for the monster he was   
The Congo wan a massive Imperial atrocity for profit - outstripping anything Stalin did - this time intentionally
Another defence of yet another terrorist state and you've chosen to ignore the rest (maybe you didn't understand them this time as well!!)
"You have not done much to explicate your longer multi purpose postings. "
Not quite sure what you wrote there (as convoluted as it comes) but it appears abusive and it still acknowledges your covering up of antisemitism for a friend on the breathtakingly stupid pretext that you didn't understand it
You are not responding to what is being put up as is your wont, so I see little point in dealing with people as dishonest and lacking in humanity as you
I think Keith an the increasing abusive Iains are enough dishonest and abusive posters without adding another to the festering heap
Regarding Britain efforts to solve the 'Irish Problem' using "God's Punishment" - The Famine
I've said my piece on this one - ad nauseum - last time it was Keith (again) and the gone and thankfully forgotten Teribus who were using this forum to show what a stupid, hate filled (not forgetting brainwashed) race they/we are, who only get what they/we deserve
I think the only thing I ever took from Mad Maggie was her "Fresh air of publicity" phrase" – I see no reason to participate in giving it to you and yours to develop yet another hate-fest
Keith's "brainwashed-to-hate" Irish children made it quite clear where he stands on this - Iains has made a good start with his "bog-trotter" and "Leprechaun" words of tolerant wisdom - as one is incapable of forming a sentence that doesn't contain the word "liar", the other specialises in responding to argument with schoolyard abuse and you pretend not to understand what you can't deal with - I think I'll leave y'all to it (you seem to have found your intellectual level here so you'll hardly be lonely)
I'm off from this before it warms up and you lads get into your stride.

I'll leave you with the words of wisdom of The Reverend Charles Kingsley’s author of The Water babies) take on the Irish who fled the Famine
"I AM HAUNTED BY THE HUMAN CHIMPANZEES I SAW ALONG THAT HUNDRED MILES OF HORRIBLE COUNTRY [IRELAND]...TO SEE WHITE CHIMPANZEES IS DREADFUL; IF THEY WERE BLACK ONE WOULD NOT SEE IT SO MUCH, BUT THEIR SKINS, EXCEPT WHERE TANNED BY EXPOSURE, ARE AS WHITE AS OURS.
Have a good time all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 09:43 PM

Current famine also in Yemen. Human caused.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 03:30 AM

"Current famine also in Yemen."
And made worse by Britain selling fighter planes to the Saudis
Human rights groups repeatedly blamed the Saudi-led military coalition for killing civilians and destroying health centers and other infrastructure with airstrikes.
Proving the old business adage that "where there's a natural disaster there's a PROFIT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 03:32 AM

Robomatic, I think you are a little confused. Jim posted Trevelyans actual words, not something written by another person to describe the event.

Trevelyan said "The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated. …The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people."

This at a time when hundreds of thousands were dying of starvation or the diseases associated with starvation.

I have attached a wiki page relating to Trevelyan part of which reads:

"During the height of the famine Trevelyan deliberately dragged his feet in disbursing direct government food and monetary aid to the Irish due to his strident belief in laissez-faire economics and the free hand of the market.[3] In a letter to an Irish peer, Lord Monteagle of Brandon, a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, he described the famine as an "effective mechanism for reducing surplus population" as well as "the judgement of God" and wrote that "The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"

Trevelyan

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:27 AM

Another aspect of the famine too often forgotten
Well worth chasing up for those wishing to understand how natural disasters were preyed upon
Predatory religious practices played a large part in colonising the poorest countries (in Ireland - The Quakers shone like principled and humane beacons over those scrabbling to win souls in the "God for food" stakes
Jim Carroll


What is "souperism"
Wiktionary
souperism
n. (context historical derogatory English) During the (w: Irish Potato Famine), the setting up of schools by non-Roman Catholic Bible societies in which starving Catholic children were fed but were subjected to Protestant religious instruction at the same time.

Souperism
Souperism was a phenomenon of the Irish Potato Famine. Protestant Bible societies set up schools in which starving children were fed, on the condition of receiving Protestant based religious instruction at the same time. Its practitioners were reviled by the Catholic families who had to choose between their faith and starvation. People who converted for food were known as soupers, a derogatory epithet that continued to be applied and featured in the press well into the 1870s. In the words of their peers: they "took the soup".

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:42 AM

Jim,
I think Keith an the increasing abusive Iains are enough dishonest and abusive posters

You resort to telling lies about me again.
How am I dishonest?
I just quoted an historian that you referenced, and I am never abusive.

Keith's "brainwashed-to-hate" Irish children made it quite clear where he stands on this

That was not my claim. I quoted historians on that too. I am interested but no historian myself.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:51 AM

Hoops Mr Carroll, Hoops !!!! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:05 AM

In what way are hoops relevant to this debate Rag?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:09 AM

"I think Keith an the increasing abusive Iains are enough dishonest and abusive posters"

CARE TO EXPLAIN YOURSELF JIMMIE? DISHONESTY?
more drivelling nonsense of the resident clown!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:10 AM

More hoops Jim :-)

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:21 AM

Other people have been banned from this forum for far lesser offences than Jim's deliberately insulting lies.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:10 AM

Whenever other contributors challenge Jim's views, he drops the subject and switches to smearing them personally, typically by claiming they have said very bad things but a very long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:13 AM

Hoops James my boy, hoops! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:33 AM

Raggytash just because Glasgow Celtic are about to clinch the Scottish league again there no reason to post that 3 times ..... they've done it before! no big deal
if thats not the reason can you explain your posts

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:43 AM

It's a big deal if you support Celtic.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:15 AM

Rag, stop posting your hoops shit and join the debate or leave it.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:18 AM

Hoops, Hoops, Hoops!
Is this a new game? Can anybody play?????

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:27 AM

I think I'm cock-a-hoop !!!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 12:16 PM

Bragging Again?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 12:20 PM

Kenny, had you minded to look up the phrase you would have found it to mean "extremely and obviously please"

Quite happy to help.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 12:21 PM

Jim, if you said it in Scouse would it be hoop la' ? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 02:28 PM

Raggy I knew what cock-a-hoop meant
But since you couldn't give the full definition I will
cock-a-hoop
adjective
adjective: cock-a-hoop; adjective: cocka-hoop
extremely and obviously pleased, especially about an achievement.
"the team is cock-a-hoop at winning its first game of the season"

Your omission tells me all

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 03:41 PM

"you know, for kids"

I sure don't know what all the "hoop-la" is about!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:22 PM

Kenny I have no desire to fall out with you. I am sure you know the reason for posting "hoops" so I have no need to explain.

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: mg
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:37 PM

here is a song i wrote about soupers. i had also read they would put meat it in on friday, either on purpose or not, and catholics could not eat it. that could be rumor..don't know.

tune is different than praties grow small but my head keeps putting it there

we who took your soup took your soup took your soup
we who took your soup took your soup
we who took your soup are a sad and shameful group
to indignities we stopped took your soup took your soup

what should a father do etc.
what should a father do when his children smell the stew
and he has a bowl too etc.

kitty bar the door bar the door etc.
...i can't face them any more
and the awful oath i swore bar the door bar the door

to america we'll steal we will steal we will steal
....
to america we'll steal where there's food at every meal
and the charity is real we will steal we will steal

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:32 AM

I am sure you know the reason for posting "hoops" so I have no need to explain.

Please explain it to the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:35 AM

H ....................oops!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 05:13 AM

Could it be an anagram of poohs?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 06:34 AM

Weel said by the wee man in the baubly hat

Jim mentioned "Soupers"

1 .... Can anyone tell me if the provision of sustenance to desperate people saved lives?

2 .... Is it anyone's opinion that the self righteous people who advised desperate people not to associate with soup/sustenance providers cost lives

3 .... is the provision of sustenance to change their views not a much lesser evil than the Conquistadorian policy of "Convert or Die"

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 06:48 AM

Very much a can of worms this one Kenny, as I am sure you realise.

One interesting point though is your referral to "self righteous people who advised desperate people not to associate with soup/sustenance providers"

Could it not be argued that "self righteous people" were offering food in exchange for people relinquishing the faith they had followed for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 06:55 AM

What I will tell you Kenny is that the assistance could have been been given without this condition being imposed. That and I think being given the choice "convert or starve" is appalling.

Going by the wiki article, it is unclear how widespread this practice was and it perhaps could be noted that other Protestants, including the Anglican Archbishop of Dublin, were against the practice and did offer unconditional help.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 07:12 AM

Thanks Jon
A balanced article

I agree with your sentiments.
The way souperism was introduced here this time didn't give the impression that a balanced view was available.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 08:03 AM

Raggy
I agree with all 3 sentences

Maybe the statement " the lord moves in mysterious ways" is apt in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 08:07 AM

Which three sentences Kenny, yours or mine?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 08:13 AM

Two of Yours and one of mine repeated in your post


A thought Divine Providence

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 08:22 AM

I think one of the problems at this remove from the time is that many of us today do not have a faith, or carry a faith with very much conviction. So given the choice today many people would say give me the food I'm starving with not a second thought about their religion.

Thus it is difficult for us the conceive the issue in the same way as people at the time would have done.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 08:46 AM

"Thus it is difficult for us the conceive the issue in the same way as people at the time would have done."

I agree entirely . If we judge everything in todays standards and protocols we open many cans of worms when dealing with the past .

To have an active interest in history is commendable but to judge past events and be consumed by their inhumanity by todays political correctness is argument for arguments sake.
Many folk use the freedom of Mudcats Laisse-faire policy to indulge in personal abuse but deny our forebears the same the same right in their affairs. Have we actually learned anything ?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 01:33 PM

Social mores change over time. This adds a major complication when analysing past events. Also the data sets available to judge past events have to be weighed as to their impartiality. This creates another major problem when it comes to deriving accurate interpretation. Distortion inevitably exists in the written record yet history texts seem to gloss over this aspect in their mighty tomes. Polarity of views in the existing record also clouds rational judgement.
It would be nice if the outcome of research was presented as shades of grey rather than as black and white absolutes.

The argument about soupers makes an excellent example. It was presented as an all encompassing blight. Revolting though the practice may have been the Wiki article clarifies that perhaps it was more a case of hype than actuality in the majority of cases.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 02:00 PM

There is well documented evidence for Edward Neagles proselytising on Achill Island, County Mayo during the period of the famine. Yes he fed some people but there was a cost in pay in people being ostracised that continues in some part even today. Some people "jumped" and then "jumped" back to their original religion but carried a "stigma" that was passed down the generations. When I'm next in Ireland I will post the name of the book I read on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:54 PM

Raggy. That it happened is a fact. What is lost in the fog of time is an accurate assessment of the scale.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:59 PM

Iains, much of what I read was written at the time. Edward Neagle was a VERY prominent proselytiser.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:34 PM

Raggy is this what you were referring Googled resuly of Edward Neagles proselytising on Achill Island, County Mayo du

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 05:23 PM

I do not know how accurate the link below is ,but Neagle seems to have accomplished a lot of positives. He is accused of souperism but it seems the Catholic hierachy were a bunch of tossers as well.
    Just goes to show no single source can automatically be trusted.
Which one to believe?? Also in what way does souperism on one small island represent events in the rest of Ireland?

That is why for history I prefer interpretations to be fully qualified and presented in grey - not black and white.


http://irelandbyways.com/top-irish-peninsulas/the-west/the-western-isles/achill-island-co-mayo/4/

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 06:51 PM

I do find it was a little strange that people can be having a reasonable exchange when someone posts:

"He is accused of souperism but it seems the Catholic hierachy were a bunch of tossers as well"

Apart from the fact they cannot spell HIERARCHY the tone of their post is aggressive describing the catholic church, or their representatives, as "a bunch of tossers" is not conducive to restrained debate.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: mg
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 07:38 PM

catholics were not entirely innocent. they were forbidden in dingle to provide any transport and i believe to sell anything to people on the blasket islands..

anyway, this is where my family is from and where i am visiting this week.

my gggf was the middle man for lord ventry. i have seen the estate.

http://myhome.iolfree.ie/~diseart/bredaschnell/Thomas%20Townsend%20Aramberg%20-%201786%20-%201868%203rd%20Baron%20Ventry.htm

http://myhome.iolfree.ie/~diseart/bredaschnell/Thomas%20Townsend%20Aramberg%20-%201786%20-%201868%203rd%20Baron%20Ventry.htm

here is another song
there was a young lady garvey said to be the prettiest girl in dunquin by peig sayers. assumed to be a relative. now in st. gabnait's?? churchyard in dunquin (st. c. is in ventry) there is a gravestone of a bridget sullivan, put up fairly recently. it says she was the prettiest girl in the town, and now she would never be hungry again. someone, maybe family, put up a stone a long time after. I'm forgetting bits of it. will amend later.

once there were fishes who swam to our shore
once there was flax and potatoes galore
and the finest of neighbors our own kith and kin
such as young nora garvey the pride of dunquin

she made the fine butter and spun the fine wool
ah those were the days when our bellies were full
forget

we prayed that lord ventry would build us a boat
so strong and substantial to keep us afloat
we would sail to a port where they let irish in
t'would have saved nora garvey the pride of dunquin

the boat was not built and the ship never sailled
and we watched our young nora grow famished and pale
our fine strapping maiden
farewell nora garvey the pride of dunquin

in st. catherine's churchyard we said prayers for her soul
not a man had the strength for to dig her a hole
there's a                where a rock cairn had been
rest in peace nora garvey the pride of dunquin

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: mg
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 07:42 PM

THE PRIDE OF DUNQUIN

Once we had fishes that swam to our shore
Once we had flax and potatoes galore
And the kindest of neighbors our own kith and kin
Such as young Nora Garvey the pride of Dunquin

She made the fine butter and spun the fine wool
Ah those were the days when our bellies were full
The likes of her beauty we will not see again
Sweet Nora Garvey the pride of Dunquin

We prayed that Lord Ventry would build us a boat
So strong and substantial to keep us afloat
We would sail to a port where they let Irish in
Twould have saved Nora Garvey the pride of Dunquin

But the boat was not built and the ship did not sail
And we watched our young Nora grow feeble and pale
Our fine strapping maiden grew famished and thin
Farewell Nora Garvey the pride of Dunquin

In St. Catherine’s churchyard we said prayers for her soul
Not a man had the strength for to dig her a hole
There’s a new Celtic cross where a rock cairn had been
Rest in peace Nora Garvey the pride of Dunquin

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 07:48 PM

mg, no one has suggested the catholic church was blameless, however after decades of subjugation they were perhaps not best placed to assist.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 04:39 AM

"Apart from the fact they cannot spell HIERARCHY"

Oh dear!

rule in arguments: If you're losing, start correcting their grammar. if they have correct grammar, correct their spelling.

You cannot correct your mistakes by pointing out the mistakes of others

When you blame and criticize others, you are avoiding some truth about
yourself

Try this approach instead

Mistakes are the stepping stones to learning!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:08 AM

So no response to the observation that you refered to the catholic church as a "bunch of tossers"

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:48 AM

If you read the link I supplied the answer would be in front of you.
You know you can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink.


Here yer go. "2nd attempt". Would you like it displayed in 4 foot fluorescents as well?

Archbishop McHale of Tuam descended on the island with 13 priests and a band bearing banners reading “Down With the Schismatics!” Their instructions to the faithful regarding apostates were to “scald them, hunt them, shout after them, persecute them to death and pull their houses down over their heads“.

I think to merely call them tossers shows remarkable restraint.!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:00 AM

Iains, you started that post by stating that "I do not know how accurate the link below is...................."

You seem to have had a "road to Damascus" moment and now are prepared to argue for it's complete veracity.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:45 AM

Raggy.... if you look at the whole site as I did as a matter of interest it states the aims of the site and doesn't at first glances appear to be a hidden agenda site
In the section entitled "About this site" you will find statement
"
"The data provided on this website has been gathered from a wide variety of sources, and has been checked for accuracy. Every effort has been made to present the information without infringing the rights of others."

Ill be interested to hear your comments.

Id also be interested to view your general comments on the link I got by mistake when looking for Neagle instead of Nagle https://archive.org/stream/priestsandpeople00mccauoft/priestsandpeople00mccauoft_djvu.txt

I t may take while to get a readable format

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 07:03 AM

The link should be https://archive.org/details/priestsandpeople00mccauoft
and is retitled from my original post

"From: Kenny B - PM
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:34 PM

Raggy is this what you were referring .. Googled result of "Edward Neagles proselytising on Achill Island, County Mayo" "

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 07:16 AM

Rag,
describing the catholic church, or their representatives, as "a bunch of tossers" is not conducive to restrained debate.

You have never objected to Jim deriding them, as he frequently has.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 07:26 AM

I would like to point out I was referring to Archbishop McHale of Tuam
and his band of merry men as tossers, not the entire church. For some of us, that is a vital distinction.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 09:56 AM

Kenny, I have a couple of books about Achill and it's history back home in Ireland. I'll post their titles next week.

Fabulous place though !

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 02:12 PM

Looks an enchanting and unspoiled place with breathtaking views

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 07:11 PM

I've been assembling photos from online views of Skellig Michael and they are hypnotizing. If I go back to Eire I'll surely pay a visit.

Meanwhile, individual experiences run the gamut and coming up with broadbrush slams at either Catholic or Protestant perfidy re: the Irish famine is not a good fit IMO in this venue. I've been told that in the Irish famine about 1 million died and 1 million emigrated. Seems a right horror no matter how we break down the various treatments people received.

I remember reading in the NYTimes obit column about a Jewish man who attended a Protestant college but was not allowed to graduate. They said they only graduated Protestants. They why he asked did you let me matriculate here? Because we thought you'd have converted by now was the reply. Not exactly nice treatment, and far from starvation, but also far from a typical experience.

As for how Irish Catholic institutions treated Irish Catholics, there is a world of information on the subject, which is a significant one all its own self. I've seen "Spotlight" and "Philomena" and they are both excellent films. But they are not history.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 04:06 AM

Unfortunately religion is hopelessly entwined in Irish History and only in recent decades have the Catholic shackles visibly loosened.
Where I am there is still an undercurrent of animosity based on the feeling that the Protestants have the better farmland. It may be low key and well hidden, yet still the odd comment is heard. Where land is held for generations, memories are long. Sometimes somethings are best forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 11:06 AM

"Hoops Mr Carroll, Hoops !!!! :"
More from our resident defender of The Jewish People who can't bring himself around to condemning extreme antisemitism by a friend
I'll consider what you have to say in the light of your overwhelming integrty!
As far as souperism is concerned - this remains one of the most shameful activities of the famine - well documented and certainly well retained in local history
Whenever I drive into town here I pass what is still referred to as "Balls's School" (now a car repair and tyre depot)
It is a monument to the practice of demanding that families rejected their religion for a bowl of soup for their children
Whne we got to know some of our singers closely they told us the stories of members of their families being pressured in order that their children were fed the megre, watery soup on offer (Captain Balls was a very devout ex-English army officer who owned the school)
The memory is retained right into the present generation
I was talking to a young woman a few years ago about a singer friend from outside the county - she asked how the name was spelt
When I told her, she said, "Oh, they must have taken the soup!"
Back later, when I've shaken the dust of Connemara off my shoes.
Much to say - especially on religion
To put Keith's dishonesty into context - I have no objection to the church per-se
I detest those within the church to rape children and I detest more the hierarchy who facilitated those rapes by covering them up and in doing so, allowing the rapists to continue having access to children
I have always believed religion and politics are a toxic mix
Having said this - I would be devastated on behalf of friends, neighbours and family if these practices destroyed the church - as far as I'm concerned, common-sense will eventually do that   
Jim Carroll
By the way Keith
"Whenever other contributors challenge Jim's views, he drops the subject"
I never drop a subject when challenged (unlike those like you who are only capable of hit-and-run postings)
I nor only attempt to substantiate my arguments but I enjoy doing so - it often takes me back to my books to check
You chose to post theses smears behind my back when I had obviously stopped posting - you often do (usually on threads I am not involved in)
'Bout time we struck a medal for people who behave like you (The Yellow Ribbon has a nice ring to it)
(no intention of taking up this or anything up with you at length

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 11:51 AM

"Philomena" and they are both excellent films. But they are not history."
No - they are not, but both are based firmly on a tiny piece of what happened, as did Magdalene Sisters, The Boys of St Vincents and Song for a Raggy Boy
In order to have given a clear, realistic picture of what went on would have put the films in the "extremly pornographic and violent" category
MEA MAXIMA CULPA didn't need a script or actors to show hwat happened in America and how the church handles it
It has yet to be dealt with at this level on this side of the pond
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 11:55 AM

Trust little jimmie to pop up and introduce Jews into yet another thread. Can some king moderator delete his posts before he destroys yet another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 12:21 PM

“Catholic shackles visibly loosened.”
What an incredible partisan statement !!!
Centuries of English rule guaranteed that religion would be a crucial part of Irish history
The dissolution of the Monasteries, outlawing of the Catholic religion, the persecution and execution of priests guaranteed the Church the support of the people
Ireland is scattered with “Mass Rocks” where Catholics were forced to practice their religion secretly – two of them within a half-hours drive of my home.
Britain forced a partition based on giving Ireland Independence of the basis there being a six county state for Protestants – their original intention of a nine-county state (the whole of Ulster) was hastily abandoned when somebody did the math and realised that it would produce a Catholic majority.
The constitution of the sic counties was based on religion – giving the land-owning protestants the vote and deprive the Catholic third of the population of a say in their lives
The ant- Catholic riots, the boycott of Catholic businesses and trades and the refusal of many firms to employ Catholics acted as a daily and very visible wedge between the two communities as have the religion based triumphalist marches, which even spread to British cities like Glasgow and Liverpool
Members of my family fled Derry in the 1950s when their home was burned down by Protestant mobs objecting to “having to live next door to “Taigues”   
No so long ago Catholic schoolchildren were forced to take a different and much longer rout to school because of howling and threatening mobs
It was extreme Protestanint who introduced the gun into twenty century Irish politics and the first shots of the last “Troubles” were fired by Loyalist murderous thugs
“Catholic shackles” – what part of the Planet Zog do you live on Iains?
All religions have their own brand of chains
Jim Carroll
" Can some king moderator "
Emperor Joe perhaps
Grow up for crying out loud - haven'y toy learned your lesson yet?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 01:13 PM

Iains
If you try to interfere with what I say once again it will be your arse that (hopefully) the moderator kicks
"ho the fuck do you think you are Ian Paisley?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 02:45 PM

And of course the 5 million plus starved Ukrainians were just a sign of bad bureaucracy. No politics and no religion there. And Stalin was just doing the best he knew how!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 02:59 PM

"And of course the 5 million plus starved Ukrainians were just a sign of bad bureaucracy. "
Beaten heads down by what happened before that event and what has happened since
Like Keith's antisemitism - you choose not to see that either
None of this has anything to do with religion of course, unless you wish to attribute his behaviour to his Jesuit training - some have!
I hope you are not listing a claim that I have ever supported Stalin in any way shape or form to your rapidly growing list of porkies!
Wouldn't put it it past you - honesty doesn't seem to be one of your stronger points
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 04:05 PM

"Hoops Mr Carroll, Hoops !!!! :"

"More from our resident defender of The Jewish People who can't bring himself around to condemning extreme antisemitism by a friend"

Jim, Am I reading this wrong or have you got your wires crossed?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 04:09 PM

""ho the fuck do you think you are Ian Paisley?"

No just extremely happy I am not a tunnel visioned, constantly swearing dinosaur like you.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 07:17 PM

"No just extremely happy I am not a tunnel visioned, constantly swearing dinosaur like you."
No - you are just mindlessly abusive
Sorry - not following you Rag
This no-brain accuses me of being a Jew-hater, yoet when he is presented with w blow-by-blow account of Keith defending wartime antisemitism of the extreme kind (at the time the Jewish People were being made ready for mass extermination) he refuses to comment on it, stupidly claiming he didn't understand it
His priorities are plain and the interests of the Jewish People don't come into them
What's the problem?
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 07:29 PM

JC:

You are no clearer now than in the posts I earnestly urged you to explicate (in another thread, no less). Now you are bringing it into this thread and labeling me all sorts of things with no justification. And when I bring up a valid famine you pay it short shrift with no attempt to marshal an argument.

You are a thread abuser here.

And I DO think you are a Stalin fanboy.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 08:37 PM

"You are no clearer now than in the posts I earnestly urged you to explicate"
Sorry - I don't believe a word of this
Keith defended wartime fascism by describing it as illogical and went on to compare a song written by one of the most virulent of wartime fascists as as harmless as the theme tune from Dad's Army
The poem I put up openly calls fro the extermination of the Jewish people - a year or so before it actually took place
I described him doing so to you - I had no need - I had already put up the two postings unedited, exactly as they had been posted
There is nothing to misunderstand - they are there on full view yet still you claim not to understand them
You appear to have an nasty dose of voluntary dyslexia
"And I DO think you are a Stalin fanboy."
More evidence of your inability or reluctance to read what I have written
You have had every chance to explain your refusal to condemn this horror and to prove your claims about my beliefs
You haven't so far and I very much doubt if you will now
Let's see - shall we!!
"You are a thread abuser here."
I have put up my arguments with the facts I have at hand - all checkable and all open to argument - you offer none - only personal abuse
that's all you and your friend, Bobad, Iains and Keith appear to be capable of
I heve never had a thread closed - nor have I ever been warned of by behaviour
You want to prove me wrone - provide contrary evidence and disprove what I have said - it really never gets any more difficult that that - that's what we are supposed to be here for
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 08:51 PM

JC just writted:

I heve never had a thread closed - nor have I ever been warned of by behaviour

May I draw your attention to the late GAZA thread which was closed upon a long diatribe from you of everybody's anti-Jewish agenda but yourself. You were warned by your threadmates if no one else. Once again, your main problem seems to be that you do not realize this is not supposed to be about yourself. Pretty shameful in a thread about starving people.

I call your pants to be requiring an extinguisher.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 08:55 PM

The Gaza thread was closed because I asked a moderator to close it. Your hubris is sorely misplaced. Nighty night, Robo.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:19 PM

Well, duh. No condescension THERE. And that had no relation to yourself and JC? Methinks this is confirmation FWIW.
Just noticed that the Keith & Bob thread was closed under similar circumstances. Similar requosts?

This is why we can't have nice things!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:24 PM

"May I draw your attention to the late GAZA thread which was closed upon a long diatribe from you of everybody's anti-Jewish agenda but yourself"
No it was not - my "diatribe" was totally on subject and it was not a diatribe - it was an argument - unlike the stream of abuse you and your friends specialise in
I did not introduce the subject of antisemitism to this thread as you suggest - Beareded Bruce did when he (wrongly) accused Ireland of being such unjustly, by the way) and (equally unjustly) suggested that I supported the IRA
I didn't respond at the time, but your continual evasive abuse gave me the opportunity to clear up both Bruce's point and your accusation of my antisemitism by pointing out your own (still no response from you)
For the sake of this discussion I suggest we leave it there
If you have any reply to the points I have made - to anything - feel free to give it (preferably without abuse)
Otherwise, I suggest you leave this thread and leave me with my opinions of you before hey sink any lower than they already are
You have my arguments of famines, how I believed they were manipulated by Empires and how they compare to what else was happening when they occurred - let's see how you do with them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:38 PM

Wow, sour grapes turning to sour vinegar. My request to the mod had nothing to do with Jim, and Jim and I almost never communicate in private, and we haven't done for a very long time. Tell you what: take a look back at the arse-end of that thread then read my message to the mod (who I won't identify):


"I don't s'pose you'd consider shutting down that horrible Gaza thread? It's just a handful
of nasty people exploiting the place in order to spout their bile and it's doing less than
nothing for the tenor of the place.

Cheers

Steve"

There. Chapter and verse. Happy now, Robo?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:40 PM

Whatever "Keith and Bob" thread closure you're referring to has nowt to do with me.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:49 PM

Jom/SS:

Pot, Kettle. You team up, gang up, get into an abusive mode, then if things don't go your way one of you can get the thread closed, the other can drag the argument to an UNRELATED thread, and the abuse can continue.

You guys are bullies. Ain't no lower form of life because you're cowards as well.

- - -

Getting back to the Soviet caused famine in Ukraine. I've linked to sources on this way back on 5 April. Actual books.

You have chosen as sources unreliable narrators like John Reed and forgossakes you've actually referenced Reilly Ace of Spies!

You really need to understand the difference between popular writings BBC entertainment and history. Otherwise someone will start a thread on Roman history and you'll be all up in there about what you saw on 'I, Claudius'!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 04:12 AM

Liar Jim,
Keith defended wartime fascism by describing it as illogical

You lie again Jim.
If you are not a filthy liar quote me ever defending fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 04:17 AM

Enough of this - you have just given away your your reason for being here which has nothing whatever to do with the debates that take place
JOM
Teribus's pathetic "insulting" name for me (which I grew rather fond of as an indication that he was desperately running out of ideas)
If this is is not a clue to your identity, it is a clear indication of where you are coming from
I'm not here to exchange insults with disaffected extremist right-wingers who can't raise themselves above the level of personal insulting and accuse others of exactly what motivated them - in one particular case, the recurring theme of antisemitism - big-time!
If you are not here to debate famines and their causes but rather, to turn these discussions into soapboxes for hatefests, you really need to go and let those ho genuinely wish to swap ideas get on with it

On the subject in hand - you have obviously not read John Reeds book and, until you have, you are not qualified to comment on it, let alone, condemn it out of hand
Reed was the only western eye-witness to have been present during the Russian Revolution and reported on it extensively
His account, far from being a propaganda exercise, was a detailed and well-documented account of a world shattering event - not a large book by any means, but crammed full of information of the events surrounding the revolution
There are other books from that time, - I've read some of them - but none contain such detail, particularly the differing debates
Far from being the work of a Soviet "dupe", it was disproved of highly by Stalin's regime - your "dupe" comes straight from the most dark period of our history when everything was being thrown at The Soviet Union and when Hitler was regarded as "a bulwark against Bolshevism" by western leaders, including Churchill
If Reed's account is "unreliable" - you need to show why it was; perhaps a good start might be to read it! - probably a ridiculous suggestion as far as you are concerned - books don't appear to be your thing: there is little evidence that they are in any of your arguments.

I have given what I know of the Irish Famine - it has been a life-long interest of mine as it is part of my own family history
It was, as far as I am concerned, a natural disaster deliberately manipulated, first by absentee English landlords to increase their land-ownings though mass evictions, and by English politicians to solve a centuries-old political 'Irish Problem'

As it was, on examination the 'natural disaster' aspect of the Famine is directly traceable back to farming methods forced on the Irish peasantry to fulfill Ireland's role in the British Empire as "Britannia's Breadbasket" - the popular name for Ireland at the time.
This led to farming families having to rely on one type of potato - the "LUMPER" - when that failed the source of nourishment of the Irish people disappeared and, despite the fact that there was four times the amount of food available to feed the Irish, they starved in their millions and as many were forced to emigrate - ethnic cleansing big-time.   

Had the Irish Famine occurred in , say the Midlands or the North of England and had been handled in the manner it was in Ireland, it would have brought about mass unrest, even revolution, as it did here
All the changes that have taken place since the middle of the nineteenth century are directly traceable back to what happened during and immediately following 'The Great Hunger'   

Regarding Famines in general - I came across this fascinating statement publicising a study on twentieth famines by a researcher for the INSTITUTE of DEVELOPMENT STUDIES
"The Institute of Development Studies (IDS) is a leading global institution for development research, teaching and learning, and impact and communications, based at the University of Sussex." hardly a politically-driven propaganda set-up
I haven't read the paper, but the introduction is enough to suggest that though famines are usually caused by natural phenomena, given the political and social will, they are well withing in grasp of governments to deal with the worst effects of them
In my opinion, in today's world that will has never existed, nor will it until the necessities of life are treated as a human right rather than a source of profit
You want to debate Famines - open your tightly -closed, aganda driven minds and do so - without the personal insults
Jim Carroll
Famine in the Twentieth Century Devereux, S., IDS Working Paper 105
Publisher IDS
More than 70 million people died in famines in the twentieth century. Stephen Devereux has compiled data from over 30 major famines and has assessed ,the success of some parts of the world, notably China, the Soviet Union, India and Bangladesh in apparently eradicating mass mortality food crises.
He contrasts this with the experience of sub-Saharan Africa, where famines triggered by the relationship between drought and civil war have become endemic since the late 1960s.
Devereux argues that if famine is to be eradicated during the twenty-first century, it requires not only technical capacity in terms of food production and distribution, but also substantially more political will, at national and international levels, than has been seen to date.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 04:27 AM

"If you are not a filthy liar quote me ever defending fascism."
I have done Keith
Describing a song written by an English Facsits calling for Jews to be exterminated when you were fully aware that six million of them had been just tat, as "a silly song" is as "defending" as it gets - that's what you did and that's what Robo has defended with his refusal to comment - two birds with one stone, as far as I'm concerned
Lie - down - your're dead as far as credibility goes Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 05:27 AM

"two birds with one stone, as far as I'm concerned"
Sorry correction - that should be "four birds with one stone - Keith (she supporter of wartime fascism) and Robomatic, Bobad and Bearded Bruce - all of whom were sked to comment - Robo lied and pretended not to understand, and is still doing so, the other pair ignored a request to comment
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 06:02 AM

"Had the Irish Famine occurred in , say the Midlands or the North of England and had been handled in the manner it was in Ireland, it would have brought about mass unrest, even revolution, as it did here "

Stop making arguments up. You have zero justification for such a statement. It is merely your opinion, dressed up as false facts.
Have you no shame?

You are merely troublemaking as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 06:15 AM

"Stop making arguments up. You have zero justification for such a statement."
Doyou honestly believe that the British people were so docile and subservient as to accept locked warehouses full of food, forced emigrations and mass starvation
Stop being so dismissive of humanity
There is no doubt in my mind that they would have taken up arms in such a circumstances as they did during the Swing Riots, the Luddite Period and the Chartist demands - as teh Welsh did during the Rebecca riots and the toll gate protests
As it was, the evicted crofters resisted the clearances with force and they were a fraction as severe as The Famine
Starving people do not take starvation without resistance
Stop being abusive - even if such behaviour were acceptable, you are the last one to be in a position to talk down to people
"False fact" - straight from teh tweeting of Donald the Trumpeter
Were are your real arguments (rhetorical question in order to underline the fact that you have none)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 07:11 AM

"Jom/SS:

Pot, Kettle. You team up, gang up, get into an abusive mode, then if things don't go your way one of you can get the thread closed, the other can drag the argument to an UNRELATED thread, and the abuse can continue.

You guys are bullies. Ain't no lower form of life because you're cowards as well."

Well "Jom" aside for now (how childish), what a shame you didn't revisit the Gaza thread before posting this tripe. The thread became infested by a concerted, non-stop tirade of extremely abusive postings from bobad and BeardedBruce in the last couple of days of its existence which is why I drew the attention of a moderator to it. The mods tend to avoid threads of that cesspool nature (they are more sane than the rest of us) and threads can run on past their sell-by date unnoticed. I'd like to hear from anyone here who's looked at the last couple of days of that thread who would still like to tell me that it had a constructive future. We are not bullies as you allege, and I for one was fairly inactive in that thread's latter stages, so your point about things "not going my way" so getting the thread closed falls, but there WAS a lot of bullying and hectoring going on from those two that rendered the thing a cancer on this forum.

And if you want to see bullying, wait to see what might happen here next.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 08:00 AM

Revolution:a forcible overthrow of a government or social order, in favour of a new system.

Nowhere do the records of the great   famine record a situation to suggest even an embryonic revolution. Crime figures rose, troops and police had to protect food shipments and at times attend evictions.
Localised protest occurred but nothing organised on a scale to support the idea of government overthrow.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 08:12 AM

"Nowhere do the records of the great   famine record a situation to suggest even an embryonic revolution. "
The knock-on effect of the Famine to the land wars in order to win back the land seized by the landlords, the 1867 Fenian risings, the beginnings of the Home Rule Movement, and, when that failed, Easter week and the Irish War of Independence and eventually, the partial independence we have today
None of this would have happened had it not been for the brutal and inhuman manner in which the Famine had been used
A book or two really would help here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 08:36 AM

"led to the land wars" of course
All this took time, as did the Russian Revolution
The first attempts at ending mass-starvation in Russia actually took place in 1905, when street demonstrations were fired on by Imperial Russian troops on the orders of the Tsar
Masses of protesters were sent to "Stailn's" gulags, which were well established as centres to suppress political unrest in Tolstoy's time, when he wrote his classic 'Retribution'
The inmates of these Gulags formed themselves into political resistance groups and a decade later, kicked the Tsarist regime into the history books
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 09:43 AM

Jim, If you are not a filthy liar quote me ever defending fascism.

Nothing in that thread from eight years ago, on a completely unrelated subject, remotely suggests I ever supported fascism, obviously because I don't and never have.

So let's see the quote, liar.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 09:44 AM

Incidentally:
"Revolution" according to the Oxford English Reference Dictionary

A.1. Revolution, the complete overthrow of an established government or social order by those previously subject to it.
b (in Marxism) the replacement of one ruling class by another; the historically inevitable transition from one economic system to another which is expected to lead to political change and the triumph of communism.
2 Any fundamental change or reversal of conditions.

No mention of violence
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 01:09 PM

Do not try to play semantics with me carrol. There was no revolution during the great famine. As usual you have told blatant lies and exaggerated. Why can you not just present facts and then give your opinion.
You continually boast of reading books and studying subjects.
All I can say is your diatribes confirm you are a pisspoor student.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 01:25 PM

"Do not try to play semantics with me carrol"
Mhmm Carrol - and you can't even spell it - desperate as that
Lies - exaggerations - I suppose it would be waste of time to ask to be put right - course it would !!
Why are you here if you have nothing other than unsubstantiated denials insultingly delivered to offer?
Sorry - no alternative argument - no cigar!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 01:26 PM

Do you really have no self-respect?
It would appear not!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Gutcher
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 09:15 AM

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: ollaimh
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 06:35 PM

we can judge by the standards of the time when the potato crop failures across belguim northern franc germany and the ukraine didn't result in famine because those backward countries fed their citizens. the english on the other hand were committed to laissez faire capitalism, much like the neo liberals today, and that belief was akin to any other totalitarian belief and resulted in mass starvation of citizens, for their own good.

it is basic racism to suggest the english and their imperial leaders were not the cause of the mass deaths

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:21 AM

It is basic racism to suggest that "the English" were.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:29 AM

I wonder who the racists are to stand by while Saudi bombs Yemen back into the stone age, and leaves seven milliom at risk of famine. Pretty much the entire western world adopting the criterion above!
Who believes that I ask myself?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:38 AM

"Who believes that I ask myself? "
The ones who sell the Saudi regime fighter planes to carry out the job - obviously!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:55 AM

ollaimh is a well known and blatant racist against the English. I think his views that the English are an evil race are as despicable as those who decry any race or religion on the basis of the actions of a few. But somehow he keeps getting away with it.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 05:00 AM

Perhaps we are racist for declaring war on Syria with insufficient evidence to justify our stance.
About time the UN got some B****s!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 05:15 AM

"ollaimh is a well known and blatant racist against the English"
I always considered his/her attacks were against the English establishment rather than the people - in which case, I go along with most of what the posting said
Funny how some people consider it ok to attack "The Russians" but consider it racist to attack "the English" (not you Dave)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 05:16 AM

In the perfect world the UN should have much bigger balls, but the UN is consistently and routinely disparaged and undermined by the US/Israel axis, which in turn allows other "powers" to act similarly. It's the kind of behaviour that will turn the world into a sort of Wild West.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 05:27 AM

Well sadly they do a pretty good job of shooting themselves in the foot also/
Saudi Arabia has been elected to the UN women's rights commission,
April 9, 2018 Syria will next month chair the United Nations disarmament forum that produced the treaty banning chemical weapons,

The UN should operate on a majority vote and no veto powers. (but the world is largely in 2 camps therein lies a problem)

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 05:31 AM

I always considered his/her attacks were against the English establishment rather than the people

Sadly not, Jim. Take a look at this posting (C&P it - clicky builder for mudcat threads has issues)

https://mudcat.org/detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=3851537

Contains the gem

anglos think if their hate is complicated enough then it's ok, trump didn't jump from the head of zeus full grown, he's a the fulillment of anglo culture. (as is richard bridges and his hate)

Plenty more like that if you look.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 05:32 AM

"I always considered his/her attacks were against the English establishment rather than the people - in which case, I go along with most of what the posting said"
So the US is guilty of being racist and carrying out ethnic cleansing by displacing and exterminating the Native People?

To judge the actions of past societies by the mores of today is a kind of simplistic approach and prone to innumerable errors

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 06:12 AM

Veto powers have been much abused, that's for sure, and the weak UN does shoot itself in the foot. Maybe it can't be repaired, and maybe we need something radically different. But I must away to get my hair cut.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 06:25 AM

A number 1?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 06:28 AM

"So the US is guilty of being racist and carrying out ethnic cleansing by displacing and exterminating the Native People?"
Has there ever been any doubt it was ?
"To judge the actions of past societies by the mores of today is a kind of simplistic "
Depends on how far into the past you go.
The Imperial system was based on the idea of "inferior" people unfit to rule themselves and superior ones who were chosen by god to lead
We were still singing hymns about when I was at school that told us to be from anywhere "from Greenland's icy mountains to India's coral Strands (anywhere but England) was to be "In error's chain"   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 06:36 AM

Nah, number 4 all over and I'll do my own nose hairs, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 06:51 AM

It's OK for you people with hair to lord it over us hirsuteley challenged, is it?

This is how wars start...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 07:27 AM

"I'll do my own nose hairs, thanks."
There's a wonderful joke about a hair ripped from up the nose and rammed into the penis as a cure for a post-pee drip, but is has to be told rather than written to work
Must get together for a pint sometime!
Jim Carroll