BS: If Russia didn't do it..?

Subject: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:57 AM

In the light of recent revelations that BoJo of the FO has been caught with his trousers down in a lie over the Salisbury poisoning I think it is time to restart the discussion. The old thread was closed, so here is a new one. For those not aware of what I am on about here is a summary.

Of course Jonson has done it before. Here is a catalogue of other porkies that Boris has been caught out in.

Mind you, it should be no surprise that he was promoted to Foreign Secretary by a government that revels in lies and deceit. In my opinion that is.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 10:16 AM

I am influenced by the fact that all the world's decent liberal democracies are satisfied that Russia did do it, e.g. the EU nations, Canada, Australia,....
I am sure they know more about the full story than we ever will, and I trust them over Putin's administration.

They have no reason to lie, but the guilty party does.
Also, Russia has previous.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 10:21 AM

Please note that the thread is about the lie told by our honest and upright Foreign Secretary. Don't let trolls divert it.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 10:48 AM

Perhaps a change of title is in order "The Mendacity of BoJo"

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 10:53 AM

Good word!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 11:10 AM

If Russia lied about the truth, they deny the truth.
If you deny Russia lied then you don't want the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 11:18 AM

This could be quite an interesting thread. This means it will have a very short life I suspect. But congratulations for restarting it.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 11:32 AM

Putin did it!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 11:44 AM

...now I'm not one to gloat [he said gloatingly...]

"punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 01:16 PM

"mismanagement"...???

well.. errrmmm.. letting Boris loose to open his gob, for one thing.....


Now he is certainly a master of being easily convinced and certain on extremely problematic and complcated issues..."

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 11:48 AM

I have been an avid reader of everything I could find, relating to the incident. I also study the comments section that many of the articles have appended.
My cursory examination of the comments would suggest that the party line being delivered is not gathering the crowds of adherents expected.
This could present a serious problem for our future "democracy"
Could our trusted politicians be lying to us?????    (Again)

The great game in Syria is failing.
The UN is getting tired of the stories coming from the Yemen.
Things are kicking off in the Ukraine
etc.
etc.

All totally unrelated facts!       or are they?

Is this the true reality of globalism ?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 12:35 PM

An interesting snippet from a very dubious source

It was the restaurant wot done it

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 01:02 PM

It really should be quite simple. If you are asserting that you know who the culprit is you should be prepared to give us the requisite evidence. All we've had so far is that a poison that's been around for 35 years was first made in Russia. We live in an era when almost anything can be easily copied or counterfeited, yet we're asked to accept that in 35 years no-one has yet managed it with this this stuff. Well maybe. We've had lots of people saying that what happened is typical of Russia so it must be Russia. We've had lots of people saying that a lot of countries who don't like Russia have said it must be Russia so it must be Russia. Well why wouldn't they. We've had people saying that we must trust the intelligence agencies (anyone for Saddam's WMDs?) and that it would be a Terrible Thing if those agencies were to tell us what secrets they have - bullshit! It doesn't make things any more true just because lots of people say they're true. Billions believe in a God that almost certainly isn't true. It seems to be almost a crime these days to demand actual evidence for things. Well not with me it isn't. I think there's a good chance that Russia dunnit but that's as far as it goes for me without further solid evidence. Just because people like Keith and bobad want it to have been Russia (do grow up), it doesn't make it any more likely that it was Russia.


Just sayin'...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 01:04 PM

So it could be a vast global conspiracies with all the most liberal and democratic governments in the world conspiring to deceive, err, everyone else, or Putin did it.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 01:36 PM

Putin did it!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 01:38 PM

Well Keith it was the most liberal and democratic government organised the delights of gladio , so all things are possible

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 02:21 PM

I do not believe it possible that all those liberal democracies would engage in such a vast global conspiracy to all tell the same lies over this.
Much easier to believe it is a rerun of the Alexander Litvinenko murder, and all the others.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 02:46 PM

Well we can either put forth reasoned arguments as I've just done or we can type predictably stupid things. We have the choice. "Reasoned" means you've thought about it before hitting the keys. It means giving us YOUR reasoned opinions, not the opinions of selected anti-Russia leaders of nations many of which you don't favour because of their stance on brexit (funny how selective some people can be, innit...). As we don't know whodunit as yet, we can't say who's telling lies or not. To say that requires unjustified assumptions. Belief is a wonderful thing. For a start, it doesn't require evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 02:47 PM

Link don't work, Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 02:53 PM

Has anyone yet proposed the poisoning was an 'act of god'...

This incident will involve a lot of very complex insurance claims....??????

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 03:25 PM

Here is another link. Not with the same street cred as the original though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 05:00 PM

Iains has a self awarded PHd on the subject of this thread.
He outranks everyone else here and should soon appear on FOX news to expound on his findings. Everyone else should await the revelations only he can unfurl.

unless

You are prejudiced against Vladimir Putin who gloats that he is the lifetime dictator of Russia, praise be upon him.

Is it his fault his opponents commit virtual and real suicide with guns, poisons and criminality?

Iains may not be a loyal Britain first commandant but he shall lead all who love this Historic Isle to the greater glories of the Russian State and its faultless leader.


psst... there is money in it for you.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 05:17 PM

Donuel we may find out one day who did the dastardly deed. However the way certain parties point the finger does not nothing to convince me as to the strength of their case. You would appear to be more easily easily led to the conviction that if the big boys say it is true then it must be true to the nth degree. It is a tenet of English law innocent until proven guilty. Does your countrymen's love of extraordinary rendition and waterboarding make such underpinnings of democracy superfluous or redundant?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 05:42 PM

There are desperate lawyers who try to get their client off of a murder charge with a flimsy technicality. Because of a history of your client's previous murder charges, sometimes circumstantial evidence is all the prosecution needs to fry your guy.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 05:53 PM

But it's no better for justice than the lynch mob, Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 06:40 PM

The lynch mob is Putin and his henchmen, they mete their own justice.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 07:55 PM

Here's the rub, bobad. We don't like Putin. I don't know a single person who would speak up for him. In fact we hate Putin. Putin pretends to hold fair elections after banning anyone who could possibly challenge him. Putin is a total git when it comes to Syria. Putin very likely interferes in other countries' elections. Putin's corrupt billionaire mates buy up huge tranches of London meaning that he gets a foothold here and is harder to oppose. One of Putin's henchmen owns Chelski football club and all sane footie fans bar the Shed-enders despise that. Putin is definitely corrupt in any accepted sense of the word. Putin is a threat to the stability of the planet (though quite likely less so than the turd in the White House).

Are you getting the message yet, bobad? He's persona non friggin' grata par excellence. He's detested by all sane westerners. He's a nasty bloody piece of work. I'd rather hack off my dangly bits with a rusty machete than call him my friend.

Do you get it yet, bobad? You don't NEED to tell us what an arse he is. We know, and have done for years. But there's just one teensy-weeny little thing. On the matter of the Salisbury poisoning, the thing has yet to be clinched. He may have done it. But he may not have. You don't know and neither do I. The difference between us is that you desperately WANT him to have done it, whereas I desperately want to know the truth. Neither you nor I can achieve our goals without - wait for it ( and you won't) - EVIDENCE.

Hope this helps...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 08:42 PM

You neglected to mention the long list of the recipients of his form of justice or do believe him innocent of those murders and attempted murders because of absence of proof and admission of guilt?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 08:59 PM

Don't give a shit. Told you what I think of him. I'm concentrating on whatever evidence there is for the attack in Salisbury if you don't mind.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:15 PM

What you fail to understand is that these murders and attempted murders are carried out by a state, a state that controls the levers of the justice system including the investigative branch. No proof can ever be had without the cooperation of the state. Simple, even you should be able to grasp that.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:23 PM

What you can't grasp is that you can't show that a person, state or president is guilty of anything without clear and direct evidence. Which is what you have not got.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:29 PM

The last time we had a decent, upright Foreign Secretary might well have been Sir Edward Grey (he of the "The lamps are going out..." quote). So Boris the Clown is a lying two-faced git. How is this a surprise in the modern political age? How does this alter the state of affairs?

No-one except Russia has a motive for assassinating Skripal. Early nerve gases, such as Sarin, are one thing; Novichok is another. Russia developed it. If someone else now has it, either A) Russia gave it to them or, B) Russia told them how they could make it. B) is surely inconceivable - you don't give away military-level secrets, especially when those secrets could so easily be used against you.

The appalling lack of care for the consequences of the delivery (daughter seriously incapacitated; random passers-by affected) bespeaks either terrorism or the actions of a state that thinks it can get away with whatever, and / or doesn't care if it gets called out. But why would a terrorist target some obscure Russian defector who no-one had ever heard of? Like Aum Shinrikyo in Tokyo, they'd release it on the Underground...

China indulges in the same propaganda that Russia does, but China have never been known to stoop this low. The crap they are spouting is not for our benefit. They know that few, if any, external to their country will believe them. They are talking to their internal audience. It's all very well saying "Well maybe", but what credible suggestions (never mind actual evidence) are there that Russia isn't behind this, Steve? I've seen none whatsoever.

The only reasoned & reasonable conclusion, in the absence of evidence that we are not privy to, is the "state-sponsored actor" of current quotes. And the only reasoned & reasonable conclusion is that the state in question is Russia. It's unlikely that any other state has access to Novichok except for defense research; there are few other states these days that would risk such a delivery method; there is no other state in the world, despite Russia's appaling bullshit, that has any interest in the death of Skripal.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:29 PM

Guess who controls the evidence.........I'll give you three guesses.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:42 PM

Anyway, these types of state sponsored actions are dealt with on the state level and that is what is currently happening and I don't think it's over yet.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 10:05 PM

As I've said, the stuff has been out for decades. We live in an age of espionage and state skullduggery. Almost anything can be stolen, passed around by spies and copied. Nuclear weapons were started off by the US but now even North Korea has 'em. It's ridiculous to suggest that Novidoodah is a unique exception. It might be but you don't know. I'm not arguing with you, Raedwulf. But I am saying that, well, suppose it wasn't Russia in the dock but you personally. All these people are saying that the crime was absolutely typical of your past behaviour. We think that only you could have had the poison (even though it's been around for half our lifetimes). Only you have the motive to do this evil deed (rather odd that Russia doesn't really have a motive either, but hey ho, eh?). But, at the end of the day, we can't exactly pin it on you. You'd be a bit miffed if you got found guilty and put away on those grounds, wouldn't you? Maybe Russia did it. But maybe you'd better prove it beyond reasonable doubt first. It's what you'd want for yourself, so why do you want our justice standards to slip? Not just because you don't like Russia I hope?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 11:53 PM

The Skripals are not the only folks with Russian sites on 'em who've been either attacked or rubbed out. I think other 'catters have posted a list of suspected victims, the prime known being
Litvinenko. The Russians have taken Crimea and maintain a bleed-the-Ukrainians dry force in Eastern Ukraine. And while there they shot down a Malaysian plane full of Dutch civilians.
It's been a case of "Who ya gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?"

The Skripal daughter is apparently talking now, so stay tuned.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 02:54 AM

None of this detracts from the fact that our foreign secretary blatantly lied. Does no one have any comments on that?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:00 AM

Yeah - seeing this play out with fingers crossed cynical truth stretcher Boris gets what he deserves this time...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:27 AM

If Boris is shown to have lied, he will resign.
The ministerial code demands that.

On who did it, do you choose to believe the 28 honest, liberal democracies, or the gang that lied about cheating in the Olympics, lied about its intervention in Crimea, lied about the shooting down of a Malaysian airliner, lied about their murder of Litvinenko,.........

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:49 AM

BoJo's latest lie

A repeat of why we should not be surprised which leads with the headline

Why are we so surprised that Boris Johnson lied when he’s been sacked for lying twice before?

What astounds me most is that he was given the post of foreign secretary in the first place. Maybe Theresa May wants someone to make her look better?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 04:06 AM

I think he got the FS gig because everyone knew the Theresa May was a remainer - and she needed to appease the Brexit gang in her parliamentary party.
Boris came within an ace of becoming PM, if Gove hadn't queered the pitch for him.

As regards the nerve gas - I haven't a clue who did it.
Like the WMD debcle - really Boris could end up another victim of our security services - a bit like Blair.

Time somone sorted that lot out. You'd think after the Spycatcher revelations, every incoming PM would like to clean that particular Augean stables. But they all let them carry on - starting wars, subverting our democratic process like they did in 1979...with their posh boy recruitment policy and the special box at Lords.

I suppose by the time they become PM, a politician has been up to so much skullduggery , that MI5 has the goods on them.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 04:54 AM

Dave - Bending the truth is not the same as lying. Plus you have to prove that he knew that what he was saying was flatly contradicted by what he knew he was told. He may have heard what he wanted to hear, he may simply have misunderstood what he was told. If we haven't all done the former, we all know someone who has; does anyone want to deny they've done the latter? ;-)

I'm not the slightest exercised over the fact that a politician may have bent the truth, found a set of statistics that suit, cherry-picked their facts to suit their views instead of moulding their views around the facts. I expect that. Whatever they believe, they are there to toe the party line (the whip exists for that reason), and then there's the old, old joke - "How do you know when a politician is lying". The surprise, always, is a politician being honest & direct. Lying & evasion ("Before I answer let me just..." spout my party dogma...) are practically compulsory requirements for an MP, whatever ideology they espouse.

So Boris the Clown resigns or is sacked? So what? One politician is replaced by another politician who may (no pun intended) or may not be more able, more truthful, or whatever. Unless you've some personal beef against Johnson, it makes no bloody difference who is Foreign Secretary.

Steve - I'll get back to you. At this point, all I would say is, if you're going to play Devil's Advocate (done it many a time), suggest a credible alternative. Russia's "Oh, the UK did it to provide a distraction from..." not only is not credible, it also looks like a blatant attempt at diversion. Which smacks of guilty conscience. If Russia didn't, who plausibly might have?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:02 AM

Some one is telling porkies! Who is built like a porkie?


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/04/skripal-poisoning-deleted-foreign-office-tweet-leads-to-awkward-questions?CMP=tw

Brian Rix would be proud!

I would also suggest that to have the government of the day behave in such a high handed fashion, and risk a major diplomatic incident by mass expulsions, then they have a duty to the electorate to   provide irrefutable evidence to support their actions.
This they have failed to do. We need to be demanding answers.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:18 AM

I know politicians bend the truth, Raedwulf and have often complained about the same but BoJo has turned it into an art form equaled only by Trump and Farage. He has already been sacked at least twice for lying, yet May decided he should be let loose on the world at large. He is simply not fit to be entrusted with maintaining diplomatic relations. Loose canon is the phrase that springs to mind and one that could cause a major altercation or worse at that.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:22 AM

A link and interesting links to links within.


https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2018/04/05/boris-johnson-why-it-is-justifiable-and-absolutely-vital-to-hound-our-foreign-secretary-

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:55 AM

An intriguing description of Alexander Boris de Pfeffel(kerfuffle) Johnson

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/04/boris-johnson-has-achieved-impossible-he-s-been-even-worse-expected

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:56 AM

So, Raedwulf, if I'm standing in the dock accused of something I know I didn't do, in spite of all the circumstantial evidence pointing the finger at me, the judge can say to me, right, Shaw, you say you didn't do it - all right then, you'd better tell us who did otherwise you definitely did it!


Er, not quite how it works, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 06:02 AM

I advocated that Russia should get involved with the investigation at the outset. I am puzzled over why, now that they have suggested that very thing, it is being dismissed out of hand.

Russia offers help to UK to probe poisoning

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 06:27 AM

Steve there are times when your post is a 100% reversal of the truth.
I have concluded you are not being sarcastic, making a parody or posing satire.
Even if you mean it you don't see it. For now I'll crack it up as a lazy quip not thought through. Are you OK? It's not Mad Cow is it?
If you are posting satire make it more obvious like;

Don Times reports;
Facebook to ACQUIRE Catholic Church
All private Data will be shared and viewed as a valid Confession.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 06:31 AM

Up to a point, Dave, I agree with you. My personal beef about Johnson is the 'bumbling buffoon' image that he projects. Either it's A) real, or B) fake. Both are dangerous. If it's real he is, genuinely, a loose cannon & who knows where he'll end up. If it's fake, he's not loose at all, but he is every bit as dangerous. For reasons which are too obvious to need explanation!

I wouldn't put him in the same box as Farceage or Trumpetty. Whatever he may be after, he is not the self-absorbed one-trick pony that they are. Boris believes in... something (no, I don't think it's just 'himself', though I would agree he has an ego!). One thing that I always find repellent in the left, when expressed (as it all too often is), is the notion that only the left have morals, ethics, principles. The Tories are all just selfish greedy bast... No they're not! They believe in what they believe in just as much as der lef' duz! I think 'trickle-down economics' is complete bullshit (primarily because it doesn't recognise a difference between 'value / wealth' and 'money'), but that doesn't entitle me to label someone who does believe in it, does it? It just means we differ.

The fact remains that if BJ is replaced, he is only replaced with A.N.Other. Other will be attacked regardless. If Other doesn't have the baggage that is attached to BJ, the attacks will be that they are just a party mouthpiece, doesn't have experience, something based upon their past utterances, etc. Other is no more likely to be upstanding & honest; it will only be that they are less known. I stand by my point - it makes fuck all difference who is FS, because it will still be a politician. And there is, still, no proof that Boris deliberately lied - he is, quite possibly, stupid & bumbling enough to have thought that he was told...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 06:32 AM

As for suggesting a credible alternative, how can I? I haven't got enough evidence to conclude one way or the other whodunnit. It isn't being devil's advocate to say, give me more evidence before I can fairly make up my mind. Note "fairly." Nearly all the evidence I've seen so far comes into the category of "typical Russian behaviour so it was definitely Russia."