BS: If Russia didn't do it..?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 10:40 AM

It's safe to say politicians can't easily get proven as liars
if they have the power to restrict access to info
& suppress evidence that incriminates them...


Basically, if devious arses like Boris get do caught out and sacked...

apart from a little sting to their egos, it's no big deal
because they have the comfy luxury cushion of wealth to fall back on..

..and can always get lucrative work as TV personalities cashing in on their infamy....

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 10:34 AM

Government press release,
"
Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said:
Today the international chemical weapons watchdog have confirmed the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical used in the attempted assassination of Mr Skripal and his daughter, and which also resulted in the hospitalisation of a British police officer. That was a military grade nerve agent – a Novichok.
This is based on testing in 4 independent, highly reputable laboratories around the world. All returned the same conclusive results.

There can be no doubt what was used and there remains no alternative explanation about who was responsible – only Russia has the means, motive and record.
We invited the OPCW to test these samples to ensure strict adherence to international chemical weapons protocols. We have never doubted the analysis of our scientists at Porton Down.
In the interest of transparency, and because unlike the Russians we have nothing to hide, we have asked the OPCW to publish the executive summary for all to see and to circulate the full report to all state parties of the OPCW, including Russia.
We will now work tirelessly with our partners to help stamp out the grotesque use of weapons of this kind and we have called a session of the OPCW Executive Council next Wednesday to discuss next steps. The Kremlin must give answers.
We must, as a world community, stand up for the rules based order which keeps us all safe. The use of weapons of this kind can never be justified, and must be ended."
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/salisbury-incident-foreign-secretary-statement-on-opcw-report

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 10:26 AM

Steve,
As a scientific sort of chap, I'll wait for genuine evidence rather than yet another official's say-so.

The report compiled by the OPCW scientists of their analysis of the agent used is the hardest possible evidence there is or can be, so you will wait for ever for anything stronger!

Dave,
The OPCW does not have the power to identify the source of the nerve agent, but merely to spell out its chemical properties.

OPCW confirmed the British findings, so we know it is a weapons grade nerve agent developed by the Soviets, and that it was in extremely pure form.
Johnson says that only Russia has the means to produce that. What is your evidence that he is lying Dave?

If he can be shown to have lied he has to resign. The Opposition would call him on it if there was any evidence. Clearly there is not.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:52 AM

..knowing my luck I'll be sat on the bog when the apocalypse shit hits the fan...


...I actually was sat on the bog when the Canary Wharf bomb went off...

A sudden inexplicable dramatic shock wave - I thought... that can't be anything I've eaten did that...

Then I got up and saw the TV news a short while later...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:41 AM

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm there PFR? Tsk, tsk :-D

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:37 AM

Best to appreciate the small good things in life while we still can...

I look out my window and imagine...

"What if.... houses on my street suddenly without any warning started exploding and incinerating,
and all around became despairing bloody charred chaos...?????

Who amongst us is incapable of ever feeling any empathy...????

yes it's shit being a civilian just trying to live a quiet normal life...

Good job we have political leaders to protect us....

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:33 AM

Interesting to note that The OPCW does not have the power to identify the source of the nerve agent, but merely to spell out its chemical properties. (Guardian 2 hours ago) Underlining what we have said all along that there is no actual proof that the substance was manufactured in or supplied by Russia.

Going back to the intention of the thread, also underlining what a lying bastard BoJo is.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:02 AM

As a scientific sort of chap, I'll wait for genuine evidence rather than yet another official's say-so. Four billion people believe in God and they're all wrong, after all. Still, as we're told that "lives are at stake" if the claimed real evidence is released, I suppose we may never know. We're now getting the same official line as to why there can't be a parliamentary debate about military action. Mustn't let the MPs have the supposed intelligence as "lives may be at stake." Worth remembering that we pay the wages of these arrogant, manipulating, lying bastards. I can't jump through hoops today, Raggytash, as my back's killing me after all that motorway driving on top of three days of virtual inactivity. Still, sun's out this end and the birds are twittering, a hundred times more sensibly than Trump is. And aren't Warburtons crumpets good when you've no energy to make anything better...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 08:45 AM

H...uh?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 07:53 AM

H.................oops

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 07:47 AM

Today's news about Novichok in Salisbury is that there is not one scrap of extra info that we didn't all have already. Stunning revelations - not!

You and others here have questioned the British findings.
Now they are confirmed, so you can't any more.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 07:35 AM

Today's news about Novichok in Salisbury is that there is not one scrap of extra info that we didn't all have already. Stunning revelations - not! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 07:13 AM

OPCW has confirmed Britain's assessment of the agent.
Johnson says "there is no doubt" that Russia did it.
Anyone still think he is lying by saying that?
28 reputable governments say he is not.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 04:01 AM

Steve,
.your hatred of anything with even the slightest Muslim whiff."
No mention there of actual Muslims

If someone hates the slightest Muslim whiff, of course you are accusing him of hating all Muslims.
It is not just Islamophobes who criticise the disusting regime in Turkey right now.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 03:50 AM

An interesting take on the current imbroglio:


http://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=97468
The embedded links are also quite thorough.

RT's Take:

Moscow said if the weapons were smart, they would target terrorists.
or
Are ‘smart’ missiles an attempt to destroy alleged chem attack evidence in Syria?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 03:20 AM

Sorry, Steve - Didn't see your Syria based thread till now. Please feel free to continue here or there!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 03:13 AM

Yes, very much the words of someone who has lost. Well, lost the plot anyway. Best to ignore it as white noise.

BTW - This thread was originally about the lies of our Foreign Secretary but as there does not seem to have been a separate thread on Syria I am happy to let it continue. Until such a time as it becomes as toxic as the nerve agent that sparked off the whole row...

Must try the Coffee Sack - Corner of Scholes Lane and Bury New Road, right near the Friendship Inn? I can run round that way to get on the M66 rather than joining the M60 at Pendlebury.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:44 PM

Ignore, Raggytash.

I enjoyed my trip oop north and can thoroughly recommend the Coffee Sack on Scholes Lane. Best coffee in Prestwich (when I praised it the lovely lady tried to sell me a huge bag of coffee beans!) and they do poached eggs with avocado on sourdough like you've never had it.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:43 PM

Refer to my post of Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:35 PM , the same applies to you.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:39 PM

You're talking through your arse Bobad. I think today is the first time I have typed the word Jew on this thread and possibly the first time I have typed the word Jew on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:39 PM

Seems that Theresa is seriously contemplating bypassing parliament in order to go military on Assad. That would be her final, fatal mistake, but I still don't want her to do such a stupid thing.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:35 PM

Fling shit at me Shaw and you will receive it right back - so keep it up if you like, I don't back down to bullies like you.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:30 PM

You're a pretty stupid man, bobad. I worded my criticism very carefully: "...your hatred of anything with even the slightest Muslim whiff."

No mention there of actual Muslims. So you respond with the worst, babyish, most splenetic insult you think you can muster, and which you're tediously and unimaginatively famous for here: "This from a Jew hating apologist for anti-Semites..." In Keith's cod-immortal words, you've lost.

You talk about brutal reality. Well here's a bit of brutal reality for you. I don't hate any Jews and number many Jews among my friends, as if the fact that they're Jews has any relevance whatsoever. It doesn't. I've battled against all forms of racism all my life. I hate all antisemitism and despise antisemites. Unlike you, I actually know what the terms mean and don't misuse them, as you deliberately do, to protect the Israeli regime from attack.

Now if you'll excuse me I have a Trip Advisor review to write about an eatery in a very Jewish area just outside Manchester that serves only kosher grub. I'm giving it five stars. You really don't understand much about anything real, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:18 PM

You give a bloody good impression of hating Jews then.

That is my last comment on this subject, I fear the thread will be closed if this continues.

Rights then good people, back to Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:00 PM

You give a bloody good impression of hating Muslims then.

That is my last comment on this subject, I fear the thread will be closed if this continues.

Rights then good people, back to Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:50 PM

Raggtash, I do know not of one poster on this site who hates Muslims.

Read that carefully please, no one on this site hates Muslims

and then read it again.

People may criticise Islamists (do look it up if you don't understand what it means) but that is NOT the same as hating Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:46 PM

Bobad, I do know not of one poster on this site who hates Jews.

Read that carefully please, no one on this site hates Jews

and then read it again.

People may criticise the Israeli Government but that is NOT the same as hating Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:32 PM

your hatred of anything with even the slightest Muslim whiff.

This from a Jew hating apologist for anti-Semites......nice.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 04:46 PM

The brutal reality is that the Turkish guy is not very nice and he engages in obnoxious activities but "a fascist dictator" he is not, and the story of Cyprus, which I know quite well, isn't as black and white as you paint it. It helps if we confine ourselves to the real realities and not the fake realities confected by your hatred of anything with even the slightest Muslim whiff.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:56 AM

Oh, I dunno. Is it any worse than the comedy going on in Washington?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:52 AM

A country that invaded and is illegally occupying northern Cyprus and its fascist dictator who is carrying out a brutal campaign in northern Syria giving advice to others to work toward "healing wounds" would be worthy of a Monty Python skit if not for the brutal reality that it is.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:32 AM

"Sounds like a sensible suggestion."

Probably a bit too sensible.
I wonder if our illustrious MPs have put a leash on May and the deranged mophead or should I say muppet?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:32 AM

Also, Turkey could stop bombing the shit out of our brave allies the Kurds.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:30 AM

A good first step would be agreeing to the UN enquiry into the attack which Russia vetoed.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:26 AM

Turkey calls on US, Russia to heal Syria wounds

Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yildirim is calling on the United States and Russia to work toward "healing wounds" in Syria, comparing their threats and exchanges of words to a street fight between "bullies."

Sounds like a sensible suggestion.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 09:50 AM

200!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 08:31 AM

Some of us might see it as American hegemony not seeing the buffers ahead. As I have said before Russia and Iran have a legitimate presence in Syria. Any other invaders have declared war by illegal aggression.
The coalition no longer bother with proof or a UN mandate to legitimise their actions.
There have been rumours in the past of the Chinese deploying troops to Syria, although this has been denied.

But:

"While China has traditionally stayed out of the Syrian conflict directly, the Asian country has intervened to combat the spread of the Islamic East Turkestan network that has found its way to not only Syria, but Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Estimates suggesting that there could be around 2,500 of the foreign fighters in Syria aiding and assisting other jihadist elements within the war-torn Levantine country."

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 08:24 AM

...Jim Carrol, Bobad and me.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 08:23 AM

Fair point Donuel, and it was not just Congress who refused to support punitive action.
The British Parliament also refused to stand with him (as did everyone on Mudcat except for Jim Carrol and me.)

Dave, what route are you warning Donuel not to go down?
Expressing an opinion you disagree with?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 08:15 AM

Yes Donuel and the Russians and Assad took that as a green light to gas the Syrians at will - more than seventy times to date reported. Meanwhile Iran is using the lack of response from the West to arm Hezbollah with missiles against Israel and is entrenching itself militarily in Syria with the aim of attacking Israel. At least the Israelis are backing up their vow to disallow this from happening by taking action against it. The thing the West doesn't seem to understand or chooses to ignore is that bullies like Assad, Putin and the Ayatollahs of Iran see lack of response as weakness and are exploiting it to their advantage as much as they can, meanwhile the bodies of the innocent pile up.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 07:50 AM

Don't go down that route, Donuel. Therein lies madness...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 07:47 AM

Well Kieth you lie by omission when you say Obama did nothing. He took the Syria conflict to Congress and asked for a declaration of WAR.

Congress spoke or rather mumbled ,er um maybe but not with my vote.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:07 AM

I do not advocate doing nothing. I am suggesting that there must be better way than violence. Do you disagree with that?

What exactly do you suggest?
Chamberlain tried very hard to avoid using violence to curb Hitler, and how did that turn out?

Obama made chemical weapons use a red line, but did nothing when it was crossed so why would they not keep on doing it?
Do we want chemical weapons to become normalised, or should the war criminals have to face reprisals as a deterrant to the use of such proscribed weapons?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:03 AM

For Donuel.
strange those pesky ruskies know more about deployments than you do.
What does that tell you about your society?


https://www.rt.com/usa/423744-us-aircraft-truman-syria/

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 04:06 AM

"However that Sun story is not searchable on my internet.
fake"

False news, or censored news. In the present situation what scenario is the most likely? It seems some of the sources I read have since "evaporated".

The great game is all smoke and mirrors. However this time around smoke is likely to be in the ascendancy.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6019299/uss-harry-s-truman-missiles-deployed-mediterranean-syria/

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 01:52 AM

I know it is difficult to follow all the posts in the thread bobad so I will just refer you to my post of 10 Apr 18 - 03:31 PM where I make it quite clear, for the second time, that I do not advocate doing nothing. I am suggesting that there must be better way than violence. Do you disagree with that? If so, I think that may be a bigger difference.

BTW, try Dave or DtG if you want to abbreviate. They are both shorter and using 'gnome' just makes you sound like a school bully.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 09:08 PM

What I am pretty sure of though is that if people keep baiting the bear, the bear will bite.

puffed up bellicose buffoon Boris really does need to take a listen to The Lion And Albert...!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 06:53 PM

From: Iains - PM
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:15 PM

The Sun-2 hours ago
"As he spoke a US Navy destroyer, the USS Donald Cook, was underway in the eastern Mediterranean after completing a port call in Cyprus. The Arleigh ... Meanwhile USS Harry Truman aircraft carrier strike group was on its way to the Syrian coast armed with cruise missiles and an array of warplanes."

Wish it was false news. This could end in tears. Their GPS is...
_______________________


Loose lips sink ships Iains even though I am anti war.
However that Sun story is not searchable on my internet.
fake

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 05:15 PM

This speaks to the difference between you and me gnome.

"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing."

Albert Einstein

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 05:13 PM

Dave, similar to your last post I was talking to a impoverished conservative who was excited about US attacks on Syria today. I asked him if he had any skin in the game like children. He said he was too poor to ever have any and I sounded like one of them liberals. After he blamed Obama we parted peacefully.

Trump is incensed today so Iains warning may not be as inflammatory as I first said.

Tears and fears from screaming ash
WWIII has come to pass
It was Truman who first used this junk
Now its his ship that is first sunk
What happens next will go untold
All we know is that it could unfold