concertinas

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Guran
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 07:01 AM

alive or not...some little things have happened since I started the folly advocating for reformation of concertinas in the mid 90s...

There are quite a few nowadays having tried wrist straps on Englishes and neck/shoulder-straps for all systems, adding thumbstraps on Anglos ( or Duets) , using levers instead of press buttons for air valves on Anglos, using wider buttons in general - often spontaneous measures and a little bit based on trial and error rather than more profound insight but that is how *progress* mostly comes by during all history - for better or worse - but without experimenting development never happens

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:25 AM

no whatever our disagreements about ergonomics , i am pleased you are alive, there is hope for ergomaniacs, may you live a long time and enjoy good health

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: GUEST,Guran
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:43 AM

Funny, I looked in here just by accident and noticed the previous question.... Hope you don't mind but I'm still alive.
Cheers
G Rahm

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 04:14 PM

where is G Rahm?

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 04:42 PM

'2Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Howard Jones - PM
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 03:42 AM

Yes I understand the comparison, my point is that playing one does not necessarily mean you can play the other.''''
yes i can play mouth organ but find playing English much easier than anglo.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 04:24 PM

Our cat runs off when I play mine!

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Andy7
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 04:06 PM

I like to think that I'm a reasonably good teacher.

And having been playing concertina for over a week now, I'm definitely a step or two ahead of our cats.

Let's get them lined up for their first lesson!

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 11:34 AM

No arguments, there, Steve. But, given two good teachers, one of whom was a top player and the other just one step ahead of me, I'd always go for the first one!

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 10:48 AM

You would hope and expect that to be true, but alas it doesn't always happen. Whereas experience and knowledge are obvious benefits, they are far from being the only requirements of a good teacher.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 10:29 AM

"who better to do that than somebody who has just gone through that?"

Someone with a lot of experience, including that of having taught many beginners as well as more advanced pupils?

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 09:18 AM

'see it from the pupil's viewpoint'. Precisely, and who better to do that than somebody who has just gone through that?

But seriously I think there are advantages and disadvantages to both methods. As a teacher with nearly 50 years experience in teaching many subjects I have seen people with nearly the same amount of experience be very poor teachers, and some new teachers who are very good at communicating with pupils. Of course the reverse can be true. There are many sides to being a good teacher.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 06:19 AM

I did actually go directly from mouth organ to anglo, and I found it helped.

"the best person to take a beginners' class is the person who is just one step beyond that as opposed to someone who has been playing for years and does everything instinctively."

Come on Steve, if you're going to claim to be any kind of a teacher you need to be able to see it from the pupil's viewpoint, at whatever level. And the more experience you have, the more you can see ahead and steer the pupil away from time-wasting blind alleys.

Howard's advice about mastery of the air button is bang on. It does become instinctive eventually, but until that state of enlightenment arrives it has to be thought about consciously.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 09:40 AM

Perhaps not but at least you should understand what's going on.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 03:42 AM

Yes I understand the comparison, my point is that playing one does not necessarily mean you can play the other.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 02:52 PM

it becomes instinctive. Precisely.
Perhaps one of the reasons why the best person to take a beginners' class is the person who is just one step beyond that as opposed to someone who has been playing for years and does everything instinctively.

Harmonica..simply uses exactly the same note system, hence the comparison.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 04:58 AM

Despite playing anglo and melodeon, I've never found the mouth organ particularly easy to get to grips with so I always find that comparison puzzling.

I understand the logic of the English system, but whenever I've tried it I can't get my hands to co-ordinate. The push-pull system of the anglo is for me far more intuitive. But I know others for whom the complete opposite is true.

You can use the air button at the same time as playing a note, although you will have to increase the bellows pressure to compensate. This helps to avoid loud gasps of air, although sometimes this is unavoidable. Learning to control the air button to manage the bellows, combined with the use of reversals (notes in the opposite direction), is an important part of playing the anglo. You learn to think ahead so that you have the bellows in the best position ready to play the next phrase. It sounds difficult described like that, but it becomes instinctive.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 04:14 AM

I have not been to Ireland that often but last time, probably 20-odd years ago, I was lucky enough to be in Finuge for the Sean McCarthy festival. I met his widow at the 'Teach Siamsa' during a concert but what amazed me most was the number of children I saw playing the anglo concertina!

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 04:08 AM

"The anglo, being a glorified mouth organ, is for a beginner much the easier to get to grips with and learn to play tunes quickly.""
One of the strangest statements I have ever come across, I confess
I have owned two (English) concertinas in my lifetime, a Wheatstone and a Lachenal (both extremely good quality)
The Wheatstone cost me £4 (in 1969) and was got for me from a old Salvation Army Man who wanted someone to have it who would make use of it
The friend who got it for me was a WW1 veteran, Tommy Kenny, who I interviewed (my first dip into collecting) who had lugged it through the trenches of Europe through all those "glorious battles".
The Lachenal was left to me by an elderly traditional musician who was brought up playing the Irish "glorified mouth organ" (wow - I'll take that one to my grave!!)
I took to playing English tunes quite easily, but never developed my ability well enough to play in public, and, by then, I was pretty deep into research so had neither the time nor the inclination to work at it
John Joe, the Irish player I mentioned had couldn't make head nor tail of the English sytem so he never bothered trying - he grew up in a tradition of Anglo playing surrounded my masters (or mistresses - in Clare, the concertina was almost exclusively a woman's instrument)
He once reeled off the names 37 women concertina players for us who lived within walking distance of his home when he was a youth - mainly players for dancing .
THIS LADY was one of his main influences
I think it is a grave error to judge different types of instrument based on your personal preferences and abilities
For me, the Anglo is streets ahead of the English, which I tend to find (with exception, somewhat dull and pedestrian (with notable exceptions) - but that's what I have become used to
Irish music has come into its own over the last decade and the skill of tome of the YOUNGER MUSICIANS coming onto the scene for the first time has made me realise that not does it have relevance now but it has been guaranteed at least two generations of a future - the concertina and the pipes are the tow leading features of that future
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Andy7
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 03:21 AM

It's fascinating hearing everyone's advice and experiences!

I think I'll probably mainly want (when I'm good enough) to play along in sessions, not to play solo very much; so it's probably better if I learn to finger tunes on both sides of the instrument, with maybe just a little harmony here and there.

I hit a problem with the 'breathing' in some tunes; for example, in 'Drink to Me Only' there's a whole line that uses pushed notes only ('The thirst that from the soul doth rise')! I know that when I improve I'll be able to find equivalent notes on the other side to avoid the problem; but at the moment, my concertina has to take a massive 'breath' at the end of such line, which kind of spoils the flow of the tune!

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 02:43 AM

I just hope for the best and know I will never be as good as you, Brian :-) I am learning piano accordion as well though. For my sins!

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Brian Peters
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 06:46 PM

Good points from Richard there.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 05:19 PM

When I started out playing in ceilidh bands in the 60s I had a GC30 box and an AD30 box which I got quite adept at switching over. In 1970 I got my 61 key and it wasn't long before I rejigged it to CGDA and didn't have to swap boxes any more. I know I could have learnt Irish style but it somehow didn't seem logical. All my mates played English concertinas. I went through various GDA melodeons before finally settling on a GD Bafetti and found playing in A wasn't too hard.

Rumn, if your fingers are hurting I'd suggest that the action is too stiff. You'll probably be alright on a better quality box with an easy action or even one of those cheaper big button modern models with melodeon reed banks. I've been playing the same heavy anglo for 50 years and I occasionally get sore thumbs but never had sore fingers.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Rumncoke
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:41 PM

As I took up melodeon a while ago I thought I'd have a go at the concertina - so I borrowed one, but I can't do any practice as the buttons hurt my fingers.
I suppose if I got one of my own I could add covers - but it was rather a surprise to discover that it was painful to put the necessary pressure on the buttons.
I suppose that like all things, quality matters which is why this one was available. It is a 30 button diatonic - basic Anglo.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:03 PM

A further dimension, on the anglo, is how much use one makes (or expects to make) of alternative buttons for the same note in the opposite direction of the bellows. That depends on what you wish to achieve and, of course, on how many such alternatives are available. Even on a 20-key instrument there are a few, between the outer row on the right hand and the inner row on the left hand. A 30-key instrument adds more, and a 40-key more still.

When Steve Dickinson was about to make the instrument that I mainly play nowadays, I had been envisaging 30 keys, but he pointed out that, if you have 40 and don't use all of them it doesn't matter much, but if you have 30 and find you could use more you're out of luck.

The downside of agreeing that he should make me a 40-key instrument was that I got very used to it. So when, years later, I felt the need for anglos in different keys, they had to have the same or a very similar layout; which meant either having them made to order (one of them) or paying the price for a scarce specification among second-hand instruments.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 11:59 AM

Here's a page of links to concertina related sites compiled by a friend of mine. I don't think he updates much these days, but there might be interesting stuff there.

http://www.d-and-d.com/tinas/links.html

and the base page is here... http://www.d-and-d.com/... mostly concerned with the internals and repair stuff.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:19 PM

Brian is a very good player please note his comments, this thread is an example of internet advice being given by people who are uninformed Brian however is qualified to give advice

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:17 PM

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 11:25 AM

"the rich low chords on the left might drown out the tune on the right, played on the 'thinner' higher notes. But I guess that's just because I can't play well enough yet to use the chords more sparingly and let the tune stand out."

You're right, Andy, that you can cut down the number of buttons fingered in the LH chords, or shorten their duration, and that will make the melody stand out more. Though in practice drowning out the tune doesn't seem to be much of a problem with the players I know. It's also possible to play RH harmony notes along with the melody, and thicken up the top end.

"You do not need to decide straight off. Learn single note style in different positions then combine the two. Easier said than done but achievable with practice."

I have to disagree, Dave. It makes life far easier if you're fully aware of the alternatives and have a good idea of where you're trying to get to. The lowest note on the RH of a standard C/G anglo is the B in the middle of the treble stave. An awful lot of common session tunes have a substantial part of the melody below that and, where the melody is being played by the LH, it's much harder to add chords. You simply can't produce a full harmonic accompaniment in that way. Of course if that's not what you're aiming for, it's less of an issue, and I should of course have mentioned octave style, as practiced in various forms by Robin, Will Duke, etc.

Switching from single-note to harmonic style isn't just a matter of a bit of extra practice - it's going to involve pretty much starting from scratch. Some people with plenty of patience and application do take the trouble and get good results, but they tend to say, "I wish I'd known that in the first place." I've taught anglo for about 30 years now, and adding harmony to an existing single-note style that isn't suited to it is a problem that's come up again and again.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:30 AM

Thank you for the plugs Dave.

The reason I put my playing style down in words was that when I taught myself to play Anglo I had no-one else around to consult with and hence developed my own method. Having not found a tutor book that seemed to duplicate the way I played I thought I had better try and work out what I did, and the best way I could find to do that was to try and write it down. Having got it into words I thought that I might as well make it available to others.

Having been to various concertina weekends over the years I have decided that the tendancy (plenty of exceptions I must add) is for English players to play 4 part pieces from dots, Anglo players to show each other the different ways that they play by ear, and Duet players to work out jazz arrangements!

I have come to the conclusion that what instrument is best for you depends on how your brain works best, you can only really find out by trying out different instruments and different styles.

Remember it's supposed to be for your enjoyment!

Robin Madge

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 18 - 06:04 PM

good points Brian, however the two cross row anglo styles i was refering to were Noel hill, Chris Droney uses his g row as the home row and crosses for notes needed for d major[I think]

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 18 - 02:52 PM

Plugging Robin's book again. You do not need to decide straight off. Learn single note style in different positions then combine the two. Easier said than done but achievable with practice.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Andy7
Date: 14 Apr 18 - 02:36 PM

Hmm, that sounds like a tough choice that will need a lot of thought!

I just tried a bit of chord playing with the left hand, and it seemed that the rich low chords on the left might drown out the tune on the right, played on the 'thinner' higher notes. But I guess that's just because I can't play well enough yet to use the chords more sparingly and let the tune stand out.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Apr 18 - 05:39 AM

It's a bit of a bugbear of mine, as someone who teaches anglo, that many of the tutor books out there are so focussed on one style of playing that they don't explain the alternatives to a beginner.

There are essentially two anglo styles that are popular today in traditional music: (1) Playing the melody across both ends of the instrument, as against (2) playing the melody mostly on the right hand, in order to leave the left hand free for harmonic accompaniment.

The former is best-known in Irish traditional music, which is also characterised by a lot of ornamentation. Think Mary MacNamara or Noel Hill. Harmonic style is what mostly English musicians from William Kimber to John Kirkpatrick play.

The thing is, it's very difficult to combine the two styles (Benedict Gagliardi of the Voxhunters has taken the Irish style and added a lot more chording than is usual - but then, he's a virtuoso). Some Irish players do add chords, but much more sporadically than a player like John K. would.

So, as a player new to the instrument, you have to make a choice straight away: single-note melody, or harmonized. If you go down the single-note track, it's very difficult to convert to harmony later, because your LH fingers are too busy playing the tune to add chords.

The other complication is that the most common key for the anglo is C/G. A good Irish-style player using basically single-note style would be able to play that instrument in a variety of keys including D and A, i.e. the kinds of keys that fiddlers prefer. If you want to play harmonic style, however, it's much more difficult to switch into keys outside the home ones without losing the LH harmony. This is why some players of harmonic style get themselves a G/D so they can play along in a session (also it sound less trebly).

So you really do have to make a decision. If you really like the 'one man band' sound of a fully harmonized style, and you own a C/G, then it will be harder to take it to the session and join in. If you decide on single-note melody, then you will be free to explore the subtle delights of the Irish style, but don't come to me afterwards saying you want to play morris dance tunes like John K. does!

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 02:00 PM

the correct technique for repeated notes if you want a legato effect is to use two or three different fingers, unfortunately on occasions contributors on concertina net are inexperienced players who give ill informed advice, if you want a more broken effect use the same finger

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: GUEST,Andy7
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 01:28 PM

Thanks for the info and advice!

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 08:29 AM

I tend to lift my finger up and down on repeated notes. Pausing the bellows can result in a reversal of direction if you are not careful. But maybe that is just me!

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 08:02 AM

Here's a link to a discussion on the repeated note topic at Concertina.net which looks very helpful:

Repeated Notes

LFF

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Andy7
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 05:35 AM

What's the correct technique for playing repeated notes? Lift the finger up and down, or pause the bellows?

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 08:21 PM

I bought a cheap Hohner anglo years ago. I'm not sure my fingers would ever have made the twists needed but the contrast between that and a friend's Jeffries was quite striking. One gulped air and needed effort and the other just wanted to play.

I'd think whichever system you go for, get one that will carry you beyond some beginner level as a starter.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: GUEST,jim younger
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 08:04 PM

I have played an English system since 1968. I have found it versatile for different kinds of music, from Bach to Bacharach and beyond. But if I was starting out and wanting to play Irish tunes, I would probably pick an Anglo. But this is mainly due to the sound of the instrument played in this way - it gives you "that sound'. Lucky for me I play fiddle and mandolin mainly these days!

I had a dream not so long ago, where I walked into Crabb and was handed an Anglo and could play the Blarney Pilgrim straight away, Anglo style. I woke up and it was a while before I knew I couldn't....

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 12:12 PM

I play a bit of Anglo, in a very limited way and for myself, now and then. If I was younger and taking the instrument seriously, I would buy a Duet for its chordal possibilities. One of the difficulties for the concertina beginner is that, with the possible exception of the Anglo, there seeme to be very little in the way of "entry-level" instruments at a reasonable price. Most of the English and Duet instruments I've seen for sale, new or s/h, cost a great deal of money.

Most other musical instruments appear to have a range of qualities and prices, so the novice can upgrade as they get better. The McCanns and Jeffries of this world are pretty pricey. Now, this is just my impression - if anyone knows better, do tell me!

My old mate Alan Day, with whom I played duets for some years, owns two Jeffries Anglos which, when I played with him, were worth 5 figures at that period. Lord knows what they're worth now!

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 11:47 AM

I'd second Ian Read's suggestion of the Gary Coover books.

John Kirkpatrick wrote a series of articles on How To Play The Anglo. Link to the first article below - links to the remaining two articles are on the top right of that page.

https://www.johnkirkpatrick.co.uk/wr_Anglo1.asp

Enjoy!

LFF

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:23 AM

Have a look at an excellent book called Another Approach to the Anglo Concertina by Robin Madge (Black Belt Caterpillar Wrestler on here)

Not a 'how to play' guide but, as the name suggests, a different approach. Kindle edition and very reasonable :-)

(I'll collect my commission later Robin) ;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Ian Read
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 09:02 AM

I have Gary Coover's excellent book for learning the Harmonic method: Easy Anglo 1-2-3: A Beginner's Guide to the Anglo Concertina. There are other books by him too when one improves enough.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: G-Force
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 06:10 AM

Thanks for all the info, looks like it’s going to be a fascinating new musical land to explore!

You're certainly right about that. But the type of concertina you get tends to lead you in the direction of what music you'll be able to play.

If you're mainly interested in melody, then either the Anglo or English will do - both have their strengths and both have their limitations. If you're deeper into music and understand harmony, basslines etc., then you might well consider a Duet of which there are at least four different kinds (Maccann, Crane, Jeffries, Wicki/Hayden), again each with their own characteristics which will tend to lead you on.

Good luck.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: GUEST,Andy7
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 05:59 AM

Thanks for all the info, looks like it’s going to be a fascinating new musical land to explore!

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 05:52 AM

I think i found the english easier because i had previously played snare drum, practising paradiddles and 5 stroke rolls ensures good left right co ordination, which is needed for the EC

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 05:16 AM

The anglo, being a glorified mouth organ, is for a beginner much the easier to get to grips with and learn to play tunes quickly."
depends on the person, i found the english easier, despite being able to play harmonica.
you will in time have to use your air button while playing to learn to. steve mentinons advanced playing on anglo which involves cross rowing, there are severl different cross rowing variations, one use the c row as the home row, one uses the g row as the home row, there is a third system which uses your two strongest fingers to start with, google or ask on concertina net, this is a system that, Noel Hill advocates for beginners as a starting point

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 08:43 PM

Get thee to Concertina.net for everything you would want to know and more about Anglo, English and many other concertinas. Good folks, lots of information.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Andy7
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:36 PM

Mine is a 30-key model ... although I've not yet got to grips with the notes on the lesser-used keys, apart from those I have to learn, to play tunes that I already know well!

To be honest, I chose the Anglo mainly because my little fingers felt uncomfortable in that instrument-holding role, they are not really quite strong enough!