BS: Hit On Syria

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:32 AM

"I am subscribing to the Financial Times in order to read it. "
Happy to put it up Dave
I don't subscribe - it's on line (I dropped my ad-blocker to read it - it goes back up now I have)
It still opens up on line with this
https://www.ft.com/content/47e1e0f6-408e-11e8-803a-295c97e6fd0b
There are similar accounts of May-Blossom's ordeal - that was the best I'd come across
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:22 AM

Israel has made many missile attacks on Syria recently.
I FUK US?

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:21 AM

Interesting that the Syrians are claiming they have shot down missiles that FUKUS say they have not launched.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:19 AM

PFR, you say you are not part of a group, but you are one of a group of posters who always support each other and who all post from the same far-Left political stance. You yourself have referred to "we" and "us."

The Far Left is anti-Western and I am sure that is why you pretend to believe Putin's lies. He is an enemy of Western liberal democracies.

Robo and Bobad, thank you so much for your support.

On this issue my case is just that the evidence against Assad and Putin is overwhelming, and accepted by every source other than RT.

I also defend Obama's position that use of chemical weapons is a red-line that requires action from us.

Why should any of you object to those views, which unlike yours are actually mainstream, being posted here?

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Iains
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:07 AM

Anyway after the little diversion, Parliament debated the event of recent days, while Israel behaves as though every month has an R in it and has likely attacked two further Syrian airbases.
    Had the evidence placed before the government been unequivocal, there was perhaps a case for a response on humanitarian grounds. This assuredly was not the case though. If you read the UN reports it is clear poison gas has been used previously, both chlorine and sarin. The fact finding missions of the OPCW have collected samples that have tested positive for both. What is more difficult is to assess the type of munition used and mode of delivery. Pointing the finger relies on accurate determination of the latter factors. That finger clearly points at the various rebel groups and Assad, although previous form suggests certain outcomes may have been as a result of being leaned on.
Syria is fast becoming a festering sore that could explode into a far bigger war. The Israeli actions do nothing other than create constant provocation and vastly increased tension. I wonder what bigger game they are playing?

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:05 AM

Sorry Jim, there might be an interesting timeline in that article, but there is no way that I am subscribing to the Financial Times in order to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 03:48 AM

"Keith A of Hertford has been a clear, consistent, and moderate poster, unlike many of his detractors."
All this means is that you agree with him
He is by far the least moderate of any poster that has posted in my time here (anybody who denigrates and targets entire cultural, national and religious groups are among the most immoderate and dangerous people on the planet)
This line of discussion has become pointless
Any discussion forum will divide itself into political trends of one degree or another - hopefully, we can learn from those we disagree with - otherwise we may as well shout at each other and wave banners - which is basically what "you lot" or 'the pack'
You lean from people in two ways - from what they say or from being forced to follow up what that say - if all you do is scoop up out-of-context phrases to back up your already set opinions is a waste of our being here - you learn nothing from that - it happens a lot
It is counter-productive to slag off one another for where we stand politically - in a way our differences are the strength of this forum
I still have fond memories of Mike Grosvenor Myer whose politics we very different from my own - I never met Mike, but I wish I had - I learned a hell of a lot from him
Please can we move on

Interesting time-line on chemical weapons in THIS ARTICLE
Interesting readers response too
Jim Carroll

Timeline
March 2011 Syrians take to the streets in what are initially peaceful protests against the government of President Bashar al-Assad

July 2012 Syria publicly acknowledges that it has chemical weapons

August 2012 Then US president Barack Obama draws his “red line” on the use of chemical weapons in Syria

December 2012 The first alleged chemical attack is carried out since the start of the Syrian war

March 2013 The UN announces an investigation into the possible use of chemical weapons

August 2013 More than 1,000 people are killed in alleged chemical weapons attack on eastern Ghouta. The US blames Mr Assad for the attack, raising the possibility of military US strikes against the Syrian government

September 2013 The US and Russia reach an agreement for Syria to give up its chemical weapons and the US in return backs down from military action

June 2015 Chemical weapons watchdog the OPCW says the last of Syria’s declared chemical weapons have been removed or destroyed but allegations of chlorine attacks continue

April 2017 More than 80 people are killed in a sarin attack on the town of Khan Sheikhoun. The US fires 59 Tomahawk missiles at a Syrian air base in response

October 2017 A joint OPCW-UN joint report blames the Syrian government for the Khan Sheikhoun sarin attack

April 2018 An alleged chemical attack takes place in Douma, in the eastern Ghouta suburbs of Damascus

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 03:05 AM

I reckon the best BS threads are proper debates leavened with robust matey piss taking banter.

Sound good to me PFR but there are those on here who see "robust matey piss taking banter" as an insult and something with which to beat you over the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 09:15 PM

The best threads are the ones in which you think that everyone else is a complete twat except for you...but you have doubts...

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 09:03 PM

If I was a mod here I'd be shit, because I'd never delete or close anything...

Actually the name 'punkfolkrocker' is a bit of clue to where I'm at...

a rough blend fermented mixture of brash robust abrasiveness, and softie bucolic tranquility...

Over educated working class punk hippy from the 1970s west country...

peace n luv n militancy...

I reckon the best BS threads are proper debates leavened with robust matey piss taking banter..

Like being in a band that enjoys playing together hard and seriously sarcastic...

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:48 PM

I agree with all that, but let's face it, very occasionally the life support has to be switched off... I mean, where the hell was that Gaza thread going! I don't think that unfettered, unalloyed toxicity is in the best interests of this forum. Nowt wrong with a good bit of knockabout but this is a music forum first and foremost... Discuss...

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:45 PM

Steve - we cross posted, so I've only just read yours...

Zomerzett and Scrumpyshire are linked alternative
dimensions, where all is a paradise of great music and good cheer...

Right I'm back downstairs to watch the rest of "John Wick 2"

I only came up here for a pee break and to check which threads were still open...

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:38 PM

I'll add further that I do not agree with closing threads, or banning wayward members...
make of that what you will...

In fact I am uncomfortable with the notion of 'sending to Coventry' / 'shunning',
but at the moment have reluctantly accepeted this course of action as a last resort,
because all other prior attempts to improve the rancid atmosphere here
have not worked...

K**** has proven to be his own worse enemy, and is sowing what he reaped...

I'd rather be friends with folks in a community, even if we are poles apart on important beliefs and issues.

Others here, prefer animosity and antagonism...

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:37 PM

Hear hear, pfr, the voice of Zomerzett yokelry! (I'm leaning, well-besmocked, on a Cornish gate with straw twixt teeth, I hasten to add...)

For any lunatic who is the faintest bit interested in seeing what we're on about, it starts here:

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic - PM
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 08:51 PM

...May I draw your attention to the late GAZA thread which was closed upon a long diatribe from you of everybody's anti-Jewish agenda but yourself. You were warned by your threadmates if no one else. Once again, your main problem seems to be that you do not realize this is not supposed to be about yourself. Pretty shameful in a thread about starving people.

I call your pants to be requiring an extinguisher.

You have to read on from that post down the thread. It's as unbearable as ever, I warn you...

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:27 PM

Robo - I'll just add that I have no use for PMs or any other forms of clandestine communications 'behind the scenes'.
I prefer straight open talk in the threads for all to see.
I have never PMd anyone, apart from polite responses to others who PMd me out of the blue.
In approx 15 years my total PM count is 35...

You, bob, and others of your disposition seem to be imagining greater plotting and scheming than actually exists in reality.
I belong to no groups,
I am not an actor for anyone here apart from my own personal independent bond with mudcat community.

Too many old folks here, are being very paranoid and silly...

I can for amusement view such behaviour as a microcosm analogy of the kind of top level arsholery that runs this planet...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:09 PM

What I "borrowed from another thread" was entirely my own work, old chap, so hardly "borrowed." The thread that was suddenly closed down, to your chagrin, had become infested with posts from two trolls. I challenge you to quote their posts from the last two days of that thread and tell me how they weren't trolling. I've told you already that I asked a mod to close the thread, which had become terminally toxic. I even gave you the PM which I sent to the mod, which was polite and which was a request, not a demand. If you really think that the thread had a future, do apprise us of your reasons (we're talking here about that Gaza thread, btw, folks...). There's something seriously wrong with you if you think that threads that turn that way should carry on, but do tell us why you think to the contrary. You jumped to an unjustified conclusion as to why the thread was closed and you're clearly still seething that you were sussed. You've demonstrated some shallowness to go alongside your sour grapes and your opinion of Keith and me are of no further interest to me. And there is no bullying in this post, but there is a dose of searing honesty from me. Deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 07:51 PM

Steve Shaw:

I appreciate a straight response from you but if you yourself have the slightest sense of fairness you will understand that with my experience in this and other threads I can perceive little difference between the behavior you claim for Keith, and the behavior I have personally witnessed from you.

Your reply was verbose, extensively borrowed from an unrelated thread, and was condescending to boot. And you HAVE behaved in a bullying manner IMO.

I experienced the sudden closing of a thread I had started which covered a subject not otherwise being addressed. Ad hominems began flying back and forth, neither side being appropriate IMO, but the sudden shutdown with no reason giving was an example to me of certain folks talking to other folks behind the scenes and I don't know any of them and it felt rather high handed to me.

You and your fellow actors have the same options of staying on message and citing your sources as anyone else without devolving into long diatribes and making oh-so-clever references to Joe McCarthy and Dr. Strangelove. Color me not impressed and allow me to make my own judgments when Mr. A of Hertford goes off the rails as you so often have claimed and I have yet to witness. You seem to think the 'A' is for Adolf but maybe it's for Abraham (which might be no improvement to your mind, but then again, it might be for Aloysius, one of my patron saints. Your mileage may vary.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 05:29 PM

"I strongly agree with robomatic's assessment of Keith's posts and the abuse he is subjected to by the usual suspects.
I don't agree with pfr's opinion that he is the one responsible for wrecking threads - it takes two to tango."

bob - no surprises here then...!!!

btw... who ever said K**** is the only culpable thread wrecker
requiring positive intervention and remedial attention...???



.. onwards & upwards striving for a better mudcat environment and experience for all...

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:51 PM

Robomatic, it's hardly surprising that you defend Keith. Your own record here is that of a rather blinkered, right-wing ideologue who rather closely aligns himself with his stance. Two bad people have been removed from this forum recently, and an even more recent change is taking place: we are sidelining Keith by ignoring his posts. Not because we are bullies or because we don't want to discuss points that may arise in his posts, but because he is currently the most vexatious poster here by a country mile. Not the most trolling, not by a long chalk, though he does seem to be in an increasingly desperate attention-seeking mindset, characterised by calling his perceived opponents extremists at every opportunity. Well we don't want to be his opponents any more. We want him to either stop what he's doing and play nice or wallow in isolation. That's his remaining choice here. Just watch if you don't believe me. I posted this yesterday in another thread and I stand by very word:

"The people you're referring to [Mike] do at least put their arguments, not necessarily diplomatically, admittedly. The main complainer [Keith] who seems to have duped you, Mike, does not listen to what we say and constantly tries to make us jump through hoops, set booby traps, lies about what he's previously said, flaunts his skewed, right-wing views as somehow mainstream (which they may well be if you regard the Daily Mail as mainstream, I suppose) and has no interest in any sort of normal, civil debate. He treats the whole thing as a game that he simply has to win. He's feeling miffed at the moment because we are ignoring him, and, rest assured, if he responds to this, which he will, we will continue do so. By doing that we are at least trying to sweeten the place a bit. If you want to see who else it really is who pisses people off and makes the game not worth the candle, take a look at the recently-closed Gaza thread please, especially the inputs from bobad and BeardedBruce in its last couple of days. You are confusing bad-tempered squabbling, bad enough in itself and we ought to know better, with wilful negativity and trolling."

I hasten to add that Mike's a good old boy and I didn't mean to attack him personally in any way. It's just that he gave me an opportunity to deliver that salvo at Keith. Some of us are determined to change things around here for the better. Watch this space.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: bobad
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:41 PM

I strongly agree with robomatic's assessment of Keith's posts and the abuse he is subjected to by the usual suspects. I don't agree with pfr's opinion that he is the one responsible for wrecking threads - it takes two to tango.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 03:59 PM

Robo - the person you mention is capable of making serious, intelligent, valid points - no arguement about that...

But you need to appreciate the history of how he has undermined his own credibility
and alienated so many other mudcatters,
with years of his persistent obsessive divisive self-indulgent posting patterns...

He has wrecked too many threads and over stretched the patience and goodwill
of a significant cross section of other mudcatters...

I respect your effort to stand up for him,
but suggest it is misplaced if you do not really know the extent of his negative behaviour over such a very long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 03:37 PM

Just FWIW:

Keith A of Hertford has been a clear, consistent, and moderate poster, unlike many of his detractors.

I can tell who he is quoting and why

He mostly sticks to a point or issue and agrees or contradicts it logically. He makes judgment calls on other posters, but in this thread anyway I haven't noticed any obscenities or harsh words.

I agree with his judgment on Putin, Putin's lies, Putin's control of Russian organs of government, 'justice', and media. For instance, I'm convinced, as are many Europeans, that Russian missiles under the control of pro-Russian forces, shot down the Malaysian airliner full of Dutch civilians.

I can go further into Putin's background and internal consistency of effort to make Russia stronger at virtually everyone else's expense, but this comment is more of an example than a full-on argument.

The disparagement of Keith A of Hertford by other thread posters needs to be based on more than mere declarations of his (alleged) perfidy. And this and other threads would be better off if posters would argue the thread subjects and not into repetitive biased comments.

I don't usually comment on these cross abuse posts but Keith is sometimes alone in there and he deserves to know that there is some unbiased judgment out there that doesn't always want to wade in the dispersive dismmissive detritus of repetitive ad hominum attacks.

Hoops, Keith!

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 01:12 PM

Since posting here some hours earlier...

A thought has been niggling in the back of my mind...

Who does someone amongst us remind me of from a much earlier era...???

With his hysterical squawking finger pointing accusations of "extremists...!!!!!"...???


...then it just occurred to me.. an uncanny similarity to Matthew Hopkins ...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 10:07 AM

Time for a few Un
British Activity Trials I think
Where's my Ouija board - does anybody know where they buried Joe McCarthy?
This nutter gets even NUTTIER with each bite
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 09:59 AM

"From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 12:39 PM

[Re:Keith]
He is crafty, conniving, two faced, and putting on an act of innocence
to gain your support in attacking his perceived enemies.....

Ie.. those from any point of the political spectrum [left, moderate, or right] who dare disagree with his toxic propagandising.
Folks who he discredits and dismisses by branding them as 'extremists'..."

------------------------------------------

"From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:17 AM

PFR....
You choose to believe enemies of the West over them [May/Boris] for political reasons.

The Russian government has rigid control of what all its police and security services say and do,
it is not anwerable to a free opposition or a free media, and has been exposed as liars over and over again.

That is not true of UK or Western governments. You are just an anti-West extremist."

---------------------------------------

Someone has woken up on a Monday morning in an even more hysterical state of spite and resentment...

Also now apparently taking inspiration from the 1950s McCarthyism Witch Hunts...

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Iains
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 09:39 AM

More false news. However I find it a reasonably convincing narrative.

https://russia-insider.com/en/skripal-syria-empires-new-realities-are-reaching-end-road/ri23158

Do Assad and Putin really qualify as the Laurel and Hardy of geopolitics?

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Iains
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 09:19 AM

Actually I did see the start of it. From outside the cham palace hotel Damascus. The protesters were marching up towards the 4 seasons hotel where the OPCW teams have formerly stayed. Initially the protests were well ordered. Subsequently our inhouse security determined it was time to evacuate. After that I have no first hand knowledge of subsequent events, other than sporadic emails from former Syrian colleagues. The entire time I was there Damascus day or night was a far safer place for a solitary person than London.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:53 AM

"Yeah yeah yeah. You were there and saw it all first hand were you?"
No I didn't - did you?
It was extremely well reported and the protests even led to your Government providing back-up to many of them (while selling weapons and training successors to keep the Qaddafi regime in place, of course)
The Tory SPECTATOR MAGAZINE article by Peruvian economist, Hernando de Soto, summed up the general feelings about the protest, in my opinion
Hernando de Soto
Time magazine chose De Soto as one of the five leading Latin American innovators of the century in its special May 1999 issue"
There was a wonderful Panorama programme showing the duplicity of the "decent liberal behavior of Britain which showed how British troops fighting to overthrow Muammar Qaddafi's regime were being bombarded by shells sold to Qaddafi by British Arms dealers - "friendly fire" I suppose you might describe it !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:43 AM

David C,
, and I very much doubt that they were involved in shooting down a Malaysian airliner.

BBC,
The JIT and the government in Ukraine say the missile was brought from Russia and launched from the rebel-held part of Ukraine.
In June 2016, JIT published a photo of a large Russian-made Buk missile component found at the crash site.
In its September report, JIT used witness testimony, intercepted phone calls, photographs and satellite imagery showing scorched land to pinpoint the launch site on high ground at Pervomaiskyi, near Snizhne, in territory held by pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine.
It said it had been able to track the course of the missile trailer from Russia to the launch site and immediately back into Russian territory following the downing of the plane.

Wiki,
"The DSB and JIT findings confirmed earlier claims by American and German intelligence sources and the Ukrainian government as to the missile type and launch area. In 2014, Ukraine and US intelligence had also said that Russia had supplied the Buk missile to pro-Russian insurgents, who had mistakenly shot down the aircraft.[9][10][11][12]

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Iains
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 07:51 AM

"There were no factions during the Demonstrations - that was the point - they were spontaneous protests that were sweeping the Arab world - the greatest chance of spreading democracy this generation has ever had"


Yeah yeah yeah. You were there and saw it all first hand were you? You have impeccable sources to give you the true story?
Do you seriously believe there were no Agents provocateurs shipped in by the shed load to stir things up?


Strange these events never occurred in Saudi where 51% of the population is under 25.
It is also the most repressive society in the middle east

As Wiki says:The Arab Spring was a revolutionary wave of both violent and non-violent demonstrations, protests, riots, coups, foreign interventions, and civil wars in North Africa and the Middle East that began on 18 December 2010 in Tunisia with the Tunisian Revolution.

This is not a spontaneous protest as I understand the word. What part of foreign intervention do you not understand?

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 07:24 AM

Bellingcat??? Thats Eliot Higgins, also known as Brown Moses well known Walter Mitty character. Operates from his bedroom in Leicester. Give it a rest Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 07:04 AM

"Who created the factions"
There were no factions during the Demonstrations - that was the point - they were spontaneous protests that were sweeping the Arab world - the greatest chance of spreading democracy this generation has ever had
The failure to realist that fully (it was partially for a time) opened it up to opportunists to take advantage - Isis has been the most successful to capitalise and to grow to the size it has.
At the beginning of the protests Britain hosted a massive arms fair aimed at selling weapons to some of the leaders being protested against - Saudi Arabia being a case in point
Diddy David Cameron went to pay his respect at the funeral of the father of the despotic Saudi Regime while a protester Journalist was being administered 1000 lashes for supporting protests
THe Tories made quite clear side Britain was on on in all this from quite early on - lip-service for the protesters, weapons fro the despots - good business practice
"Why is it necessary to make Syria yet another failed state."
the Assad's family decades old record of state terrorism, torture and mass murder make it essential that they become a "failed state and the State leader put on trial for his crimes against humanity as soon as humanly (emphasis on this word) possible.
I wonder would you have protested as loudly on behalf of Germany's Industrial capitalist Nazi State - the similarities are there for all to see.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 06:56 AM

Dave C,
I have no idea whether the Russians were involved in the murder of Litvinenko

The Public Enquiry found that he did. The evidence was unequivocal.

and I very much doubt that they were involved in shooting down a Malaysian airliner.

'Clear and unequivocal' that Russia faked MH17 evidence (MH17)
Satellite images of missile launcher were tampered with to blame Ukrainians for airliner crash that killed 298, Bellingcat investigative group says .
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11643847/Clear-and-unequivocal-that-Russia-faked-MH17-evidence-report-says.html

As far as intervening in Crimea is concerned, I don't remember Putin ever denying doing that.

BBC,
"Russia's annexation of Crimea last year caught almost everyone off guard. The Russian military disguised its actions, and denied them - but those "little green men" who popped up in the Black Sea peninsula were a textbook case of the Russian practice of military deception - or maskirovka."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31020283

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Iains
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 06:38 AM

I wonder how Arab Spring changed from protest to full on guerilla warfare? Who created the factions
         Who trains/ed them
         Who supplies them
         Who is embedded with them
         Who proposed the domino theory
         Who keeps threatening to leave and keeps changing their
         mind
         Why is it necessary to make Syria yet another failed state.

It sure as hell ain't rocket science to put an unwavering finger in one direction.
         So what allegations are true and what are false flags? Where are the boots on the ground to provide unequivocal evidence.

Do we go to war on the basis of as yet unsubstantiated allegations that would not even generate a case in a court of law?
Kissingers jibe that military men were "dumb stupid animals to be used" as pawns of foreign policy will come back to haunt the hawks if body bags start coming home.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 06:29 AM

I have no idea whether the Russians were involved in the murder of Litvinenko, and I very much doubt that they were involved in shooting down a Malaysian airliner. Someone with one of their missiles probably was. As far as intervening in Crimea is concerned, I don't remember Putin ever denying doing that. He just said that they were justified in doing so, you may disagree with him but that is purely an opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Iains
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 06:16 AM

Rule Brittania might have been true a century ago, now our fleet could not fill the Serpentine!

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 06:13 AM

Can we cut though this patriotic, flag-wagging garbage
The "decent democratic nations" were more than happy to stand by for decades and watch the people of Syria tortured and massacres by "an old ally of Britain"
The only thing they did was to sell them weapons and equipment in order to round protesters up into torture chambers (Keith gave them his blessing in doing this on the "Homs Horror" thread)
The stockpiles of chemical weapons now being drawn from may have been facilitated by sales of chemicals by Britain)
The "decent democratic nations" allowed Arab Spring protests to metamorphose into civil war and when Muslims genuinely supporting democratic change in Syria volunteered to fight Assad, the same "decent democratic nations" described them as terrorists and jihadists
It is little surprise that many of these volunteers eventually joined up with real terrorists like Isis - the rest of the world had sold them out so they turned to people of their own faith
And so Isis became a world threat
This latest theatre is little more than that - a theatrical gesture staged because Assad and "Free Russia" have become an embarrassment to the "decent democratic nations"
I disagree with those who say Russia didn't do it - I think there is enough evidence to suggest that the "Free and Democratic" leadership of new Russia is up to their elbows in this slaughter
I go along with Corbyn that this should not have been carried out without U.N. backing
May Blossom is now facing a Parliamentary debate on whether she had the right to go to war without their permission
The fct that she acted as she did confirms her party's allowing Britain to be Amarica's (in this case, Trump's Amarica's) poodle.
The European countries are now debating whether they were waise to support the attacks, but then again, the Frenchies and Co have never peen part of the "decent democratic nations" of the world, have they now - I ask you!!!   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 06:04 AM

We have enemies when we are at war. Otherwise we have people with various perspectives, all of whom lie and propagandise and all of whom we have to try to get on with. Sorry if that makes me an extremist! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 05:48 AM

"You choose to believe enemies of the West "
ANSWER HERE

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: MikeL2
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 05:43 AM

Hi Steve

" I suppose I can exonerate you to some degree as you are in the unfortunate position of being a Man U fan... "

Now that is hitting below the belt    lol

Cheers Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Iains
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 05:36 AM

Well the Easter recess is over. Our illustrious MPs return to the Cauldron of Cerridwen to continue the noble art of glutting.
Hopefully they can tear themselves away long enough to rip the PM a new a+++hole concerning a recent illegal strike on Syria. Much as I dislike Corbyn we shall now see if he is man or mouse.
I would like to see a massive vote of no confidence in the PM. It is a final chance for our MPs to show if they support themselves or their electorate. Long term this is far more of an issue than brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 05:33 AM

Putin, well I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him, but I have less direct evidence that he lies.

Some examples,
He lied about cheating in the Olympics, lied about its intervention in Crimea, lied about the shooting down of a Malaysian airliner, lied about their murder of Alexander Litvinenko, Boris Nemtsov, Anna Politkovskaya,.........

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 05:16 AM

Boris is a liar, has been proven over and over again. Putin, well I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him, but I have less direct evidence that he lies. Trump, capable of completely contradicting himself in two consecutive twitter posts. May, so weak that she moulds herself to the form of the last person who sat on her. Macron, well he has arms sales to the Saudi's to consider, the truth is not high on his list of priorities. A complete shower of crap the lot of them. But Corbyn speaks some sense, which it is through the UN that problems should be resolved and any action determined. The "western democracies" have long since yielded any right to moralise over events in the middle east, those days went out with the Sykes-Picot agreement

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:29 AM

Dave, If Boris lied, the opposition would call for his resignation.
They do not.
You lied when you described the recent strikes as "bombing the shit out of Syria."

Jim,
You choose to believe enemies of the West "

Why do you? Western countries are liberal democracies whose actions and claims are scrutinised by opposition parties and a free media.

Russia has been exposed as lying repeatedly and has none of those checks and balances on what it says and does.

You choose to believe what Putin's proven liars say for your own extreme political purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:23 AM

Boris Johnson exposed as a liar over and over again

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:22 AM

"You choose to believe enemies of the West "
Were's me Union Jack!!
More Lord Haw-Haw rhetoric
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:22 AM

the main proponents of bombing the shit out of Syria

Syria and Russia are bombing the shit out of the Syrian opposition, and poisoning them with illegal weapons.

F UK US hit 3 military bases linked to illegal chemical weapons, killed no-one and injured 3. Not bombing the shit out of anyone. You are dishonest in your assessment of events favouring enemies of the Western democracies for your own extreme political purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:17 AM

PFR,
the highly dubious Boris/May account of what happened in Salisbury....

Boris/May account, informed by the police, security services and OPCW.
You choose to believe enemies of the West over them for political reasons.

The Russian government has rigid control of what all its police and security services say and do, it is not anwerable to a free opposition or a free media, and has been exposed as liars over and over again.

That is not true of UK or Western governments. You are just an anti-West extremist.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Iains
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:02 AM

The incontrovertible evidence presented by France
i.e. no evidence at all
On such is the fate of Nations decided!



The French services analysed the testimonies, photos and videos that spontaneously appeared on specialized websites, in the press and on social media in the hours and days following the attack.Testimonies obtained by the French services were also analysed. After examining the videos and images of victims published online, they were able to conclude with a high degree of confidence that the vast majority are recent and not fabricated.
On the basis of this overall assessment and on the intelligence collected by our services, and in the absence to date of chemical samples analysed by our own laboratories,France therefore considers (i) that, beyond possible doubt, a chemical attack was carried out against civilians at Douma on 7April2018; and (ii) that thereis no plausible scenario other than that of an attack by Syrian armed forces as part of a wider offensive in the Eastern Ghouta enclave

I wonder what conclusions they have reached on the Moon Landings?
.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 03:52 AM

From a friend of mine on fb:-


Well at least now if someone asks Theresa May again what is the naughtiest thing she has ever done, at least she now has something else to say.
Let's face it: unilaterally deciding to commit our nation to an act of war without consulting Parliament beats the shit out of running through a wheatfield.
Rock on Tess ??