BS: Hit On Syria

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Iains
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 03:38 AM

You obviously have not the slightest grasp of what he was saying jummie.
Go back to bed and let the grown ups continue the debate. No wonder you believe the propaganda in its entirety. Do you actually have the capacity to think?

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 03:19 AM

“Pure data. You don’t believe data"
Paolo Tadini Bacigalupi American science fiction and fantasy writer
Great authority on "truth"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Iains
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 05:50 PM

Pfr Happy to oblige and thankyou. If I had not done so I am sure Steve, yourself or any other freethinkers would have penned similar.

I work on the assumption that we are always fed a single facet of a complex story. It is a fact the media can worry to death within the guidelines defined by the spinmeisters and divert attention away from the real story. Most of the targeted audience fall hook, line and sinker for the received "wisdom"
My take is the more the story is vomited over the MSM the more it needs to be questioned. It is rarely black and white, they are all villains and there are no heroes. The hallmark of a true politician is the ability to lie through their teeth.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 05:29 PM

Iains - cheers mudcat mate..

I was sat mulling over wording a similar post whilst enjoying a very late sunday fish chip dinner.
And here it is - you've already done it, and much better than mine would have been...

I'd have started something like...

If I was a serious honest independent political journalist,
or even an undergrad politics student..

I'd absolutely need to start by researching...

"who do these organisations really represent.
                Who funds them
                From where do they get their data
                Who verifies their data
                Are they actually neutral
                Do they have independent assets in country"

...etc.. etc.. etc...

These buggers in expensive suits in authority need much closer scrutiny,
than the 'easily convinced mob' ask of them...!!!

Thanks again for saving me some hard graft on a full belly...

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Iains
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:37 PM

Of course if all the organisations with the long names quoted above were squeaky clean we could perhaps believe them. But demonstrably they follow their own agendas or have been got at in the past so their
conclusions can be at best dubious or at worst downright lies.
The white helmets for one have zero credibility. They stage manage events with a panache that makes micky mouse productions appear professional. Even the OPCW have been blackmailed in the past.
To blindly accept all that is placed before you has to be the hallmark of a fool.

You need to ask who do these organisations really represent.
                Who funds them
                From where do they get their data
                Who verifies their data
                Are they actually neutral
                Do they have independent assets in country

“Pure data. You don’t believe data—you test data.If I could put my finger on the moment we genuinely fucked ourselves, it was the moment we decided that data was something you could use words like believe or disbelieve around.”

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:16 PM

You need to look up the difference between proponents and excuses bobad.

And it's still tragically hilarious that it happens to be FUKUS

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: bobad
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:12 PM

the main proponents of bombing the shit out of Syria

The main proponents of bombing the shit out of Syria are Assad, Putin, the Ayatollahs of Iran and Erdogan.

France, the UK and the US bombed the shit out of Assad's chemical weapon capability, much to the chagrin of his apologists it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:10 PM

Really? Give me the maths. I need to know how many Russian trolls there were before the start of the last 24 hours and how many Russian trolls there are now. Give me the precise numbers and I'll confirm your 2000 percent for you. I'm good like that. While you're at it, I should like the names and addresses of all those alleged trolls so that I can confirm their troliish credentials. Or not. Take your time now.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:06 PM

Oh yes, and well spotted PFR. As I have said for a long time now, everyone will eventually know the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:03 PM

I like the initials of the main proponents of bombing the shit out of Syria because they have declared themselves judge, jury and executioner.

F UK US

Seems very apt somehow...

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: bobad
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:03 PM

The Russian disinformation campaign has already begun. There has been a 2,000 percent increase in Russian trolls in the last 24 hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 03:25 PM

If you doubt the OPCW, the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Syrian Arab Republic, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the Violations Documentation Center in Syria, the United Nations Human Rights Council, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, the Union of Medical Care and Relief Organizations, and the Syria Civil Defence medics then perhaps you can tell us who's word you would accept as authentic.

Bob - why, yours of course...

While we're at it..
we can also save time and effort if you just tell me to type your script
of what I think and agree with...

there.. world problems solved...!!!

I'm off to the toilet to make room for fish n chips......

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: bobad
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 03:11 PM

doubt of it's providers and authenticity...

If you doubt the OPCW, the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Syrian Arab Republic, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the Violations Documentation Center in Syria, the United Nations Human Rights Council, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, the Union of Medical Care and Relief Organizations, and the Syria Civil Defence medics then perhaps you can tell us who's word you would accept as authentic.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 02:59 PM

Bob - I suspect 'proof' will always be tainted with doubt of it's providers and authenticity...

But on balance / gut feeling I'm prepared to go some way along with the version
that Asshat is an evil villain who needs swift punative justice,
more than I'm prepared to accept the highly dubious Boris/May account of what happened in Salisbury....

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: bobad
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 02:47 PM

I don't know what kind of proof you require pfr but I do know that many agencies including the OPCW have confirmed well over seventy chemical weapon attacks in Syria with some having been delivered by plane or helicopter. Seeing as how none of the groups fighting Assad have planes or helicopters there is only one logical possibility as to who is the guilty part unless you're some kind of conspiracy nut.

The Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Syrian Arab Republic says it has confirmed at least 34 chemical attacks since 2013, many of which it said used chlorine or sarin, a nerve agent, and were conducted by the Syrian government.

Human Rights Watch has reported that there have been 85 chemical attacks since 2013, based on its analysis of reports verified by various sources, including United Nations investigations and Amnesty International.

Link to the NY Times article with a list (Source: Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Syrian Arab Republic) of confirmed chemical weapon attacks and the perpetrator.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 02:28 PM

Countries that supported Syria strikes: - US - UK - France - Germany - Turkey - Saudi - Qatar - Canada - Japan - Spain - Australia - Israel - Denmark - Bahrain - Italy - Poland

Opposed the strikes: - Syrian regime - Russia - Iran - China - Iraq - Venezuela - Algeria - Lebanon - Hamas - and Jeremy Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Iains
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 02:27 PM

Funny how Israel/ Gaza has dropped from the headlines. How convenient.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 01:53 PM

"severely degrading one leader's capability to kill his citizens with chemical weapons is a good thing, do you not agree?"

Bob - In principle I absolutely agree..
and could also, as a last resort, be persuaded to accept a direct drone missile strike on an evil dictators head...

However, as an educated intelligent fairly well informed observer of news events,
I require a far higher quality of genuinely balanced objective news media
than we are currently being fed, and asked to believe without question...

I simply do not trust the 'official' version of complex events and fictions happening in Syria and Salisbury.....

Frankly, I suspect few will ever truly understand the 'reality'...???????

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 01:35 PM

PFR,
All our efforts to befriend and reconcile with him have been rejected and abused.

I have not rejected or abused anything. Quote me if that is wrong!
All I have ever done is put my mainstream views which unfortunately challenge your teams' extreme ones.

He is crafty, conniving, two faced, and putting on an act of innocence
to gain your support in attacking his perceived enemies.....

Unable to reply to or address anything I have said, you resort to personal abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 01:35 PM

Punkfolkrocker, Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Iains
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 01:33 PM

The more I read about the "poisoning/s" and the much vaunted retribution, the more suspicion I have that I am watching theatre.
It is reported from some sources that communications to all sides were retained throughout.
First retribution is coming by the next post, then by carrier pigeon.
How much is for public consumption and how much to achieve the stated ends.
Cynical me thinks far more is happening than we are aware of. I suspect a bit of a bunfight is occurring between "neocons" and the presidency.
There is a stated aim(twice) to leave Syria. There are two (staged?) events that promptly kick the likelihood into touch.
Who actually had control of what I wonder? Does the hierarchy in the land of milk and honey have a little curdling and foulbrood perhaps?
Does the president actually call the shots here? or is shadowland interfering?

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 01:30 PM

"I ask you please be careful not to be fooled, used, manipulated by Keith..."
Don't be mean - this Chocolate Soldier is really good fun - especially when he rolls over and dies for the Queen when you offer him a biscuit
It seems from the news reports that the gesturing is over, the Wanker in the White House has made his election appearance and the killing goes on
as usual
One more town full of civilians to slaughter and the Genii we helped create is back in its bottle
"shagabbott!! "Who woke up the other Troll!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: bobad
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 01:26 PM

Well pfr, it's not likely we will be seeing any leaders deposed in the near future but in the present, severely degrading one leader's capability to kill his citizens with chemical weapons is a good thing, do you not agree?

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 01:12 PM

No doubt Corbyn is preparing his arse for tomorrows outbursts in Parliament aided and abetted by the nodding shagabbott!!

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 01:12 PM

oops... that should have read..."apologists for Assad and Putin"


i'm contending with a combination of cranky mudcat behaviour, and even crankier USB keyboard drivers.....

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 01:10 PM

"apologists for Assad"


Why would any sensible person not want to see probably most world leaders deposed and replaced by saner individuals...???

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: bobad
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 01:04 PM

From Haaretz

"The bombing was the biggest intervention by Western countries against Assad and his superpower ally Russia, but the three countries said the strikes were limited to Syria's chemical weapons capabilities and not aimed at toppling Assad or intervening in the civil war."

It would appear that apologists for Assad and Putin are opposed to seeing their chemical weapon capabilities degraded especially when it's the big, bad "West" that's doing the job. At least the Syrian people are safer now and that's what counts.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 12:39 PM

I've had enough of the tripe I am reading here today...


To the good natured folks of mudcat, who maybe only dip into BS threads now and then,
I ask you please be careful not to be fooled, used, manipulated by Keith...

He is crafty, conniving, two faced, and putting on an act of innocence
to gain your support in attacking his perceived enemies.....

Ie.. those from any point of the political spectrum [left, moderate, or right] who dare disagree with his toxic propagandising.
Folks who he discredits and dismisses by branding them as 'extremists'...

A number of us have sadly become very familiar with his negative devisive behaviour and tactics over several years...

All our efforts to befriend and reconcile with him have been rejected and abused.

For the moment, a last resort resignation to ignore him, may or may not be improving the situation...???

Please be wary not to be taken in by him and his malign pretence of innocence...

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 12:26 PM

Hertford Calling -Hertford Calling
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 12:23 PM

So you can't identify anything either.
I must be right then, as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 12:14 PM

Don't bother, Jim. We're doing very well.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 12:11 PM

Identify anything I got wrong then Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 12:09 PM

"Not from EU nations, Australia, Canada, New Zealand or UN. "
Sounds more like Lord Haw-Haw with every posting (or should that be Tokyo Rose!)

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 11:47 AM

it amazes me that folk can give may any credit for her pathetic gesture and gross hypocrisy

And Macron? He was prepared to make a unilateral stand against the poison gas atrocity.

Corbyn said "bombs and war will never make peace"

This strike was not about making peace.
It was not an intervention in their civil war.
It was a punishment for flouting the international treaties against poison gas, and for using it on civilians and kids.
It was also to deter further use by Assad or any other war criminal using the stuff in the future.

Apart from extremists on this forum, Moscow and Damascus, where can we see condemnation of this action?
Not from EU nations, Australia, Canada, New Zealand or UN.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 09:50 AM

"Corbyn said "bombs and war will never make peace" "
He's right of course
Diplomatic and economic pressure could and should have been used way back when Assad got going - bombs have been resorted to by the country that used the first weapon of mass destruction on two cities filled with civilians - the survivors and their families produced deformed children for many decades later - while the same countries carried out a years-long chemical bombing programme on third-world peasants
The point is that no bomb has ever been invented that can discriminate between combatants and non-combatants
Al Whittle had the right of it when he wrote "easier than standing under where the bombs are falling!"
This Trump inspired gesture is no more than that - isn't there a half-term election in the offing!
Before one of the 'warriors' here as what should hae been done, I can only suggest the reply given to a Yankee Tourist asking the way; "I wouldn't start from here if I was you"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: bobad
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 09:19 AM

Corbyn said "bombs and war will never make peace"

Russia has bombed in Syria since September 2015 day in, day out - schools, market places, hospitals. During that time members of his front bench and inner circle spoke on Kremlin propaganda channel RT dozens of times. His hypocrisy is astounding.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Iains
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 09:13 AM

Bobad do you seriously think anyone is going to believe that last ridiculous post of yours.

You would appear to be swayed by the same level of evidence acted on by the coalition to justify their strike.

Good job it is only a battlefield where people get killed, rather than a courtroom where people get sentenced.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: bobad
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 09:10 AM

Yes Mike please do visit the recently-closed Gaza thread, by all means, and see for yourself. It's always the same story with this cabal of ideologues who have driven away most of the reasonable people from the forum - it's everyone else, not us.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 08:57 AM

It is not true at all, Mike. The people you're referring to do at least put their arguments, not necessarily diplomatically, admittedly. The main complainer who seems to have duped you, Mike, does not listen to what we say and constantly tries to make us jump through hoops, set booby traps, lies about what he's previously said, flaunts his skewed, right-wing views as somehow mainstream (which they may well be if you regard the Daily Mail as mainstream, I suppose) and has no interest in any sort of normal, civil debate. He treats the whole thing as a game that he simply has to win. He's feeling miffed at the moment because we are ignoring him, and, rest assured, if he responds to this, which he will, we will continue do so. By doing that we are at least trying to sweeten the place a bit. If you want to see who else it really is who pisses people off and makes the game not worth the candle, take a look at the recently-closed Gaza thread please, especially the inputs from bobad and BeardedBruce in its last couple of days. You are confusing bad-tempered squabbling, bad enough in itself and we ought to know better, with wilful negativity and trolling. I suppose I can exonerate you to some degree as you are in the unfortunate position of being a Man U fan...

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: bobad
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 08:49 AM

Majd khalaf
?Verified account @majdkhalaf1993
18h18 hours ago

I am currently in Syria. I met many of the civilians here today, most of the civilians in areas outside the control of Assad, welcome to the US, British and French strikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: MikeL2
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 08:35 AM

Hi

"This Mudcat group is able to dominate because their response to mainstream views is so nasty that ordinary decent people would rather stay away. "

How true.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 08:25 AM

The pathetic gesture of suggesting that a democratic government should vote on what is best for the country? Surely May is being far more hypocritical by forcing through a dictatorial decision while being the head of a minority government?

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 08:18 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: peteaberdeen - PM
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 07:37 AM

it amazes me that folk can give corbyn any credit for his pathetic gesture and gross hypocrisy - i'm sure it's been said already !!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 08:09 AM

anyone for a Mudcat Tavern?

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 07:53 AM

Well said both Steve and Peter. It is beyond me how people still fall for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 07:37 AM

it amazes me that folk can give may any credit for her pathetic gesture and gross hypocrisy - i'm sure it's been said already (not least by me) but

1. possible gassing by the syrian govt (in a country where 7? other powers are already dropping bombs) - resulting in 'we have to join in to protect innocent people and international law' (sic)

2. constant outrageous attacks on the palestinian people in contradiction of international law resulting in - 'that's ok, carry on, we'll look the other way)

3 saudi arabia indiscriminately bombing yemen - one of the poorest nations on earth. 'well done, chaps - would you like some more weaponry with your state banquet'

just who do you cretinous little englanders think you are? how can you justify this poisonous nonsense?

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 07:14 AM

Theresa May is attempting to gain political strength from this from her very weak position. She even tried to look and sound like Thatcher when she was "explaining to the nation" what she was up to. The USA hates the UN and routinely either undermines it, mainly by vetoing any criticism of the Israeli regime, ignores it or refuses to pay its dues. We should not align ourselves in any way with the wild-west antics of that hubris-ridden idiot in the White House, who is similarly using this to strengthen himself at home. Giving distant Johnny Foreigners a whupping is a time-hounoured method of strengthening your hand with your own electorate. If we haven't learned from Blair and Iraq that before we start bombing foreign countries we need the solid truth about what happened and we need the consent of our country's elected representatives, well I don't know what. The argument that she put to us that what's been done is in the UK's interests is a downright lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 06:46 AM

"He later renounced it as 'written by someone who didn't realise that bombs killed people'.
Don'rt think Betjeman ever reached that stage Al
Mind you - he saw writing about Slough

"Come, friendly bombs, and fall on Slough!
It isn't fit for humans now,
There isn't grass to graze a cow.
Swarm over, Death!"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 05:54 AM

in the 1930's WH Auden wrote a rather wonderful poem called Spain. About the civil war.

He later renounced it as 'written by someone who didn't realise that bombs killed people'.

You can't help feeling that about some of these posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Hit On Syria
From: Iains
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 05:40 AM

It is very dark down the rabbit hole. Who knows where truth lies?
Below: more confusion.


http://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/news/world-news/2347-breaking-news-false-flag-confirmed-chlorine-gas-used-for-chemical-a
or
https://english.al-akhbar.com/node/22772

It all has more facets than faces on a rhombododecahedron.