 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Backwoodsman Date: 01 May 18 - 02:54 PM "Yes, the Tories carried out Labour policy, so they are both as bad as each other." No, the policies of 'Hostile Environment' and deportation of immigrants from Commonwealth countries who have been established here for 50 years or more are the policies of the Conservatives, no-one else. Why do you continue to defend the indefensible (other than you being a disgusting racist specimen, which you have demonstrated over and over again on this forum)?
-Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 02:52 PM "I'll bet he used to pull the legs " Only when he couldn't get dogs or small children to do it to Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 May 18 - 02:47 PM To clarify the issue of documentation. 2009 – Destruction of documents begins In June 2009, the UK Border Agency approved the business case for disposing of millions of paper records. The Home Office told us that it was then that the landing cards – or “registry slips” as they’re officially known – were earmarked for destruction. The work began in December of that year. Alan Johnson was the Labour Home Secretary at the time. When asked if he knew that the registry slips were being destroyed, he said: “No, it was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency.” 2010 – Registry slips destroyed Although the decision was made in 2009, it wasn’t until October 2010, when the Conservative-Lib Dem Coalition government were in power, that the registry slips were actually disposed of. The Home Office described this to us as an “operational decision”. Theresa May was Home Secretary at the time, but we haven’t seen evidence either way to suggest that she knew about, or signed off, the decision. Of course none of this mattered until... 2012 – Hostile environment policy introduced In May 2012, Theresa May declared: “the aim is to create here in Britain a really hostile environment for illegal migration.” And sure enough, the Immigration Act 2014 brought in new powers to help the Home Office and other government agencies make life difficult for illegal migrants. But many have claimed that those same policies have been unfairly damaging and intrusive to people who are here legally, including the Windrush generation. The more astute amongst you will spot the close proximity of the destruction of the papers and the introduction of the hostile environment and the fact that it was during May's watch that this happened. The more cynical of us can draw our own conclusions. Some idiot will say it was pure coincidence. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 May 18 - 02:32 PM But they were destroyed by the Tories. Nobody forced them, they decided to carry it out themselves. Yes, the Tories carried out Labour policy, so they are both as bad as each other. On what grounds should someone who has lived and worked in this country for years be suspected of being an illegal immigrant in the first place? Would being black be sufficient to justify asking for documents? No. You now have to prove citizenship to get a job or rent a house whatever colour you are. Keith, not even Theresa May is now saying the things you are saying. It is recognised now that inability to produce documents is not in itself proof of illegal status. Only since the plight of Windrush folk was recognised. They are legal but have no proof, so the system is now seen to be flawed, but only for people with that history. Is this inhumanbeing still defending something the Tories have just lost a Minister over ? If you mean me, the Minister was sacked because she said there were no targets, not because Windrush was her's or the Tories' fault. It was not. He wouldn't hurt a fly actually. (Hertford isn’t far from Harlow.) Thanks Kevin. Long time no see. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 May 18 - 01:52 PM He wouldn't hurt a fly actually. (Hertford isn’t far from Harlow.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Backwoodsman Date: 01 May 18 - 01:45 PM I know, Jim. I sometimes forget, and jump through one of his feeble-minded hoops myself. Then I remind myself what a pathetic, childish little twerp he is. I'll bet he used to pull the legs off spiders when he was young. (I almost said when he was a child, but I remembered in time that he's still a child). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 01:28 PM Ditto Baccy It only work if we all agree to it His mindless inhumanity is very tempting though - probably not getting the attention at home so he comes here to get some from us Jim |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Backwoodsman Date: 01 May 18 - 12:28 PM Don't. Feed. The. Feeble-minded. Troll. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 12:22 PM Is this inhumanbeing still defending something the Tories have just lost a Minister over ? Un-be-lie-vable Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 May 18 - 12:18 PM On what grounds should someone who has lived and worked in this country for years be suspected of being an illegal immigrant in the first place? Would being black be sufficient to justify asking for documents? There has to be some additional indication. Keith, not even Theresa May is now saying the things you are saying. It is recognised now that inability to produce documents is not in itself proof of illegal status. Never mind. Be glad you aren’t Home Secretary faced with trying to sort this out, and live with the flack when the promises about undoing that harm that has been done turn out to be as hollow as the promises made to Grenfell survivors. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Backwoodsman Date: 01 May 18 - 12:14 PM But they were destroyed by the Tories. Nobody forced them, they decided to carry it out themselves. You are just being a troll, as usual. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 May 18 - 12:07 PM If you mean the boarding and landing passes, the decision to destroy was made under Labour. then used that as an excuse to kick them out, refuse medical treatment, etc Labour policy on illegals was and is the same. You are just using their plight for political point scoring. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Backwoodsman Date: 01 May 18 - 11:36 AM It's even more shameful that the Tories destroyed the records of their legal right to be here, then used that as an excuse to kick them out, refuse medical treatment, etc. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 May 18 - 11:16 AM "Are we to take his word for his legal status?" Sounds more and more like Nazi Germany looking for Jews Really? What country in the world would accept an assurance from a suspected illegal immigrant that they were legal? None. When you are accepted you are provided with proof of your status. Or should be. Successive governments have failed these people. It is shameful that their plight is being used for political point scoring by the Left. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 May 18 - 10:54 AM Entire UK to be deported for not keeping all their paperwork Roll on... :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 10:07 AM "Are we to take his word for his legal status?" Sounds more and more like Nazi Germany looking for Jews Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 May 18 - 09:25 AM Lack of proof that he is here legally is not proof that he is here illegally. Maybe not, but not having proof of status will get you expelled and not just under the Tories and not just in Britain. It is in many cases perfectly possible to prove the circumstances of a migrant's arrival in this country, No problem in that case, but the Windrush children were left with nothing. In the case of the Windrush generation that was prima facie evidence of their legal status here. What was? There was no evidence of their boarding or landing. It was decided to burn those records in 2009. Most children had nothing to show how they got here, or that they were entitled to say. In some cases perhaps it might be seen as difficult or even impossible to find proof of someone's illegal status. In that case their right to stay would be recognised No it would not. That would make it impossible to remove any illegal immigrant. There is no way to prove that anyone arrived illegally. It would be an automatic and immediate amnesty for everyone as soon as they stepped off the lorry or boat. But it was fundamentally unjust, as the government now belatedly admits. The government never denied it. It is obviously unjust that those people were left without proof of status. No one government is to blame for that injustice. There are estimated to be over a million illegal immigrants in Britain. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 May 18 - 08:36 AM You'd keep looking till you find evidence, direct or circumstantial. If you picked up some random stranger and accused them of a crime you'd have to find some kind of reason more than that they just haven't got an alibi. "You've no proof where you were that night, so we'll find you guilty." As you say, Nigel, every case has to be treated on its own merits. That means looking for different kinds of evidence - it shouldn't mean dispensing with any need to find evidence |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 May 18 - 08:09 AM Lack of evidence can never prove anything and in a country which works on the innocent until proven guilty that is a very significant fact. My birth certificate has the surname 'Polakow', which is not my name now. If I did not have the deed poll certificate of my name change, how could I prove I was born here? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Nigel Parsons Date: 01 May 18 - 07:39 AM It is possible to go too far in the other direction: In some cases perhaps it might be seen as difficult or even impossible to find proof of someone's illegal status. In that case their right to stay would be recognised. If in some cases people would be granted that status when they were not entitled, that's how it goes. Better by far to err in that direction than the other way, as has been done till now. If an illegal immigrant enters the UK tonight on the back of a lorry, and disappears into a local neighbourhood without being captured on CCTV. When he reappears tomorrow morning, what 'evidence can be found to show that he is an illegal immigrant? Are we to take his word for his legal status? Lack of proof that he is here illegally is not proof that he is here legally. Similarly: Lack of proof that he is here legally is not proof that he is here illegally. Each case needs to be treated on its own merits. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 May 18 - 06:47 AM Not true because there is no "evidence of illegal status" to supply. That is nonsense. The Home Office didn't see any need to look for such evidence. It is in many cases perfectly possible to prove the circumstances of a migrant's arrival in this country, for a start. In the case of the Windrush generation that was prima facie evidence of their legal status here. If the claim was that at some time in the past few decades they had spent sustained periods of time outside the country in a way that deprived them of legal status here, it would be perfectly possible to seek evidence that would prove that to be the case. In some cases perhaps it might be seen as difficult or even impossible to find proof of someone's illegal status. In that case their right to stay would be recognised. If in some cases people would be granted that status when they were not entitled, that's how it goes. Better by far to err in that direction than the other way, as has been done till now. It was much easier not to bother to seek that kind of evidence, and just demand that people had to produce some particular proof to confirm their legal status, while refusing to accept other forms of proof. But it was fundamentally unjust, as the government now belatedly admits. It was also almost certainly in breach of legally binding human rights legislation. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 06:42 AM Acts of politicians should not be politicised, from someone who has politicised the rape of children and the harassment and rape of women politicians!! Funny old world eh!! Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 05:13 AM " but that figure of 25% shows I'm wrong about that." Not really Sen Those who rule us invariably cover up their inadequacies by blaming others - "foreigners" have long been the scapegoat Some of the most generous, warm-hearted people I have ever met have suffered from the Achilles heel of racism West Clare, where I live, is noted for its friendliness, yet its attitude to Travellers still makes me weep at times Misguided doesn't automatically mean bad The term Xenophobia dates back to ancient Greece, from the time the Greek army had been sent to invade Persia and had been abandoned by its Government and left to make its way back home through hostile territory - a fear based on betrayal - a perfect example of what's happening today Most "racists" don't act on their prejudices, (I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've heard someone say to a foreigner, "I'm not talking about you". I find racism a distressing aspect of our society, but I believe the ones who openly advocate racial superiority and intolerance truly intolerable, which is why I fall out with the people I do as often as I do on this forum (I'm not talking about you, of course!!!!) Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 May 18 - 04:56 AM Kevin, Countries where the authorities in cases like this would realise that they needed to supply evidence of illegal status Not true because there is no "evidence of illegal status" to supply. The system here and in every other country relies on evidence of legal status, and all countries expel people who have no such evidence. Stop making excuses for stuff that not even Theresa May would now excuse, Keith. What I have said is not an excuse, and the treatment of these people has been inexcusable. They were shamefully mistreated and I have said so all along. I just object to it being politicised. The Windrush folk should never have been left without proof of status. No one government is to blame for that, and Labour started the "hostile environment" thing. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 01 May 18 - 04:40 AM the problem we have now is that the government is so weak it has to play to the gallery of the worst and most racist aspects of their own party. This doesn't mean that every Tory voter is racist - misguided mainly, but it can only be down to individual voters to knock the more extreme elements into touch so the tail no longer has the dog to wag. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Senoufou Date: 01 May 18 - 04:09 AM I'd vote for you Dave! :) That's horrifying Jim. A quarter of us admit to being racist! It's so ignorant, and to assume someone who is of a different race is less intelligent or less able is appalling. I'm not sure how one tackles racism. We're lucky as no-one over the years here in Norfolk has ever exhibited anything like that towards us. And we've noticed more and more mixed-race couples going round the supermarkets with their trolleys. Lovely to see. I have a (perhaps misguided!) view that most people (of any race) are good-hearted, but that figure of 25% shows I'm wrong about that. I've had "Toubab!" shouted at me in Senegal, but it only means, "Aha! A white lady!" and I didn't see it as any more than a sort of observation. Sigh. What can be done to change people's unkind and hurtful attitudes? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 03:51 AM "And I'm a Tory. " I hope people here are discussing politicians rather than individuals, Sen, though I will say that you are not helped by you fellow Tory's FOR FUCK SAKE WHO CARES????????? These actions were carried out to meet targets - those who set those targets are ultimately responsible Is immigration really such a serious problem as to need targeting? When Enoch Powell said it was his party ostracised him and the only people who would accept him were sectarian Northern Irish bigots I would have thought there were far more serious issues that deserve targeting - the THE RAPID RISE IN RACISM in Britain is far more important than making the lives of people who have lived in Britain and contributed to its well-being miserable and insecure. "A chimney sweep has got on the bus!" The beautiful Terence Davies film, 'The Long Day Closes', based on his Liverpool childhood, depicts a similar reaction - not from a child but an adult When I was an apprentice on the docks in Liverpool I remember the eager friendliness of many of the seamen, Africans and Lascars in particular, who would share their food with us (I fell in love with curry on a ship berthed in The Albert Dock) I never got over the shock of the sign carved over the then segregated public dock toilets (in marble) which read on one side "MEN" and on the other "ASIATICS" Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 May 18 - 03:10 AM I have a theory on those in power, Kevin. If someone believes they are capable of running a country and making decisions that affect millions of peoples lives they should be barred from holding any position of power on the grounds of insanity. The people you want running things are the normal, nice, ordinary folk that manage their own lives very well and have no greed or delusions of grandeur. I am available... :-D |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Senoufou Date: 30 Apr 18 - 06:30 PM When I was quite young, my mother took me on the bus into West Ealing. It was when Caribbean immigrants had just started to arrive, and a very black chap got on our bus. I'd never seen one before, and shouted out very excitedly, "Mummy! Mummy! Look! A chimney sweep has got on the bus!" She nearly died of shame (none of my family has ever been racist) and turned to apologise profusely to the man. I remember to this day how he laughed and laughed, and his lovely white teeth shone. I didn't know it then, but in the future I'd travel all over West Africa and marry a man from Ivory Coast! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Apr 18 - 06:21 PM Most people actually are good people. It's easy to forget that., because so often the bad people seem to be in charge. I don't know if being in charge turns them bad, or because they are particularly equipped to get in positions of power. A bit of both, I suspect. As the verse puts it: "The rain it raineth on the just And also on the unjust fellas But chiefly on the just, because The unjust steal the just’s umbrellas.” |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Senoufou Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:10 PM There have been some very odd and aggressive posts recently from Bonzo haven't there? Sad, because I've often had some lovely conversations with him over the years. Perhaps it isn't him after all. A while ago, someone posted some awful stuff in my username, and Joe had to delete it all. My husband is a lovely, caring and kindly man, and he too votes Tory! (runs off donning tin hat) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Dave the Gnome Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:39 PM You're not an archetypal Tory though, Sen. You just vote for them! I don't understand it but it is your choice and I will not fall out with you for it. I am sure you want to distance yourself from people with Bonzo's attitude. (Which I suspect is not the real Bonzo BTW. He just likes to play troll every now and then) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: David Carter (UK) Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:12 PM I am shocked. You sound so reasonable. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Senoufou Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:10 PM I care very much. People have suffered as a result of this cruel policy. And I'm a Tory. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:42 PM Amber Rudd I suspect cares very much about the consequences. So does Theresa May,, though one must hope that she will care much more before too long. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Bonzo3legs Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:38 PM Absolutely!!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Dave the Gnome Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:24 PM Bonzo is the archetypal Tory, David. He does not understand what you are talking about. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: David Carter (UK) Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:58 PM The people affected care. Their relatives care. Their friends care. Their workmates at jobs that they have lost care. People who value justice care. People who value compassion care. And, although I do not personally know anybody affected, I care. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Bonzo3legs Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:52 PM FOR FUCK SAKE WHO CARES????????? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Apr 18 - 01:54 PM "Any country", Keith? I am countries who don't deserve that insult. Countries where the authorities in cases like this would realise that they needed to supply evidence of illegal status before imprisoning people who claimed to be here legally, but who couldn’t produce required evidence. Such as in the case of people such as Hubert Howard, who had a passport from Jamaica with an official signature on a stamp indicating he had arrived at the age of three 58 years ago, and who supplied evidence of school attendance, but who lost his job and his home because the Home Office refused to accept those as valid evidence. Stop making excuses for stuff that not even Theresa May would now excuse, Keith. Do you really believe "That would happen to anyone in any country". There are some countries where I can imagine that happening, true enough. I hope there aren't many. One is more than enough. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Bonzo3legs Date: 30 Apr 18 - 01:28 PM "If it's the bloke who looks like Humpty-Dumpty In a hot summer, it's Sajid Javid" He'll look very good opposite a hippo in a cold spring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Apr 18 - 09:26 AM "Can we legitimately call him a Merchant Banker? " Doncha just love rhyming slang!! Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:51 AM Can we legitimately call him a Merchant Banker? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Senoufou Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:31 AM Hahaha yes, he doesn't have much hair does he? Apparently he used to be managing director of Deutsche Bank. Hmmm... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:31 AM Sajid Javid. A former official at Chase Manhattan Bank and Managing Director of Deutsche Bank at £3m a year At a Conservative Friends of Israel lunch in 2012, The Jewish Chronicle reported Javid as stating that "if he had to leave Britain to live in the Middle East, then he would choose Israel as home. Only there, he said, would his children feel the 'warm embrace of freedom and liberty'". The future of Britain's minorities is in a safe pair of hands then!!! Jim Caarroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Backwoodsman Date: 30 Apr 18 - 06:40 AM If it's the bloke who looks like Humpty-Dumpty In a hot summer, it's Sajid Javid. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Senoufou Date: 30 Apr 18 - 06:00 AM I think the new Home Secretary is called Sajid Javid (not Khan) but I may be wrong. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:51 AM That would happen to anyone in any country who lacked the relevant papers. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:42 AM Can we clear up this "illegal" thing If the arrest, detention and threat of deportation of citizens legally living in Britain is not covered by British law, then Britain is a police state This doesn't just involve arrest, but at leas one legal resident of Britain who went to the West Indies to visit relatives has been denied the right to return home for eight years - we don't know yet if there are more who have experienced the same treatment If this is not a national crime, then it is a human rights abuse and needs to be treated as such Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush From: Will Fly Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:39 AM Typo - Khan! |