BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush

Subject: BS: Britain's shame - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 07:17 AM

It's hard to remember a more shameful episode than has been exposed in the "Windrush" affair. Thousands of people from Commonwealth countries, who have been living and working for half a century or more, with every legal right to be here, bullied and threatened by the British government, in many cases deprived of their right to work or rent a home, or even drive a car, or have needed medical treatment; even locked up while waiting to be deported to countries which they may never have seen.

So far we don't know how many people were actually deported, let alone how many gave up and went into exile in face of unrelenting bureaucratic bullying. The Home Office evidently does not bother to keep records of stuff like that - fittingly enough, since they made a point of destroying all the records they had of their arrivals.

And the person personally responsible for all this, as Home Secretary at the time these policies were set in motion, and Prime Minister when they came to fruition, says "sorry for any anxiety caused". Yes, she's embarrassed now it has become impossible to shrug it off in the way it has been shrugged off for years while case after case of appalling injustice has been reported to her. But not a hint of the response that would be more appropriate than embarrassment - a sense of shame.

But of course if she had any sense of shame about this she would resign. Failing that she should be sacked. I hope the Opposition tables a motion of censure. It would be interesting to see which MPs would have the brass neck to oppose it.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 07:54 AM

Yes, Home Secretary Theresa May, she of the grubby half-apology, who was instrumental in creating a "hostile environment" and who signed off the disgraceful Adbus campaign. She was, of course, struggling with the Tories' proudly-trumpeted policy of "getting net migration down to the tens of thousands," an impossible target as there was no way of preventing free movement of EU citizens. Of course, non-EU citizens, including the Windrush generation, were much easier targets, hence the "hostile environment." Even more disgracefully, she's tried to level blame at Labour for the decision to destroy the Windrush landing cards. But that bureaucratic decision, clumsy as it now seems, was made without malice before there was political pressure to reduce immigration and was made at a time when there was no "hostile environment." And it WAS the Tories who destroyed them!

And let's not forget that she lied to the country about the Tory immigration policy once it had failed, trying to tell us that it had never been an election promise, "just an aspiration." She was a terrible Home Secretary and she's a terrible prime minister. Terrible and incompetent.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 08:11 AM

Amen to all of that. She, Rudd and the Home Office are a disgrace. Thoroughly disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 08:59 AM

It didn't just affect the people who had arrived here perfectly legally all those years ago - the children of such people have been finding that they also are seen as non-persons, unable to work, or go to college and so forth.

I think these need to be recognised as not just immoral unjust and illegal acts on the part of the government, but as nothing short of criminal conspiracy. Will the Crown Prosecution Service have the courage to allow the courts to decide? No chance - the normal reason given for not prosecuting is that it's judged unlikely there could be a conviction. In this case the reason would be that the chance of conviction is only too high, if a jury had the chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 10:31 AM

Amber Crudd and theresa may or may not should both resign over this disgrace.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 02:01 PM

We in the UK sometimes tend to look at stories in the media about stuff that happens in the USA - gun violence and grotesque affronts to humanity like Trump, and feel a bit smug that, for all of our faults as a society, that could never happen here.

Here's a case where I am pretty sure that the boot is on the other foot. I can't see a government getting away for years with this gross abuse of human rights of Americans. Am I right?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 02:06 PM

The interview with the old West Indian Lady who had been arrested, put in detention and threatened with detention came just after the Stephen Lawrence documentaries this week
Makes you proud to be British
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 02:50 PM

Don't forget 'Windrush'is just a convenient identifier. There will be many more affected in a similar way but not so easy to group.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 04:02 PM

True 'Windrush" is just a label applied to 50,000 people who have been living in fear, all those who came from Commonwealth countries before 1973 when the then (Labour) Government changed the law to keep black people out. Anybody who hasn't held on to various bits of paper they've decided are relevant. (Stuff like tax records, for example, don't count.)

It's not just needing to prove you came before the cut-off date. They demand proof that you haven’t been out of the country for more than two years. Quite how they demand proof of that from people who haven't ever had any reason to get a passport, I can't understand. But then, you aren't supposed to understand.

And after Brexit we can expect to have the same thing happening to people from other EU countries. Yes they might be promised a right to stay, but so were the "Windrush" generation, and their children and grandchildren. Till the Nasty party moved into action.

How many people, any of us, would be able to pass these tests and prove they had been continuously here, in face of officials that work on the assumption people are lying through their teeth?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 04:37 PM

I am ashamed to be British. My Polish passport application is looking better but sadly my father's country is also suffering from the wave of right wing xenophobia that is plaguing us. What is happening to people? I don't remember the events leading up to the Nazis taking power but the lessons should be plain enough for all to see. Mind you, I expect we will soon get an example of the little Englander attitude in here :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 06:26 PM

Theresa May has promised that all the people who have been hit by her policies in this scandal will be fully compensated for financial loss and distress.

Of course we should remember the glib promises she made in face of the Grenfell fire, and the revelations of developers being encouraged to reduce standards of cladding etc.

Which of course turned out to be empty promises - but they served their purpose of weathering the media storm.

Once the heat is off, I wonder what will actually happen. I hope people will keep a good eye on the vicar's daughter. Of course I really hope that she'll be out of public life, and someone with a sense of honour might be in her place. But I suppose that requires a general election - none of the papabili among her own party could conceivably meet the fairly low ethical standard.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 06:46 PM

I just can't believe that I'm seeing good, honest, upright, hard-working people, who've lived here for decades and contributed fully to the life of the country, suddenly pitched into uncertainty, insecurity and the feeling that they have nowhere where they belong. This has sent me raving mad for the last couple of days and Mrs Steve is right up there with me. Just imagine that you'd lived in a country all your adult life to then be told that this isn't your home, and that you haven't got a home, so tough luck. But she's going to get away with this, isn't she?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Roughyed
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 06:52 PM

She has been very careful to avoid committing to identify people who have been wrongly deported and bring them back. The Huffington Post has a leaked email showing that she thought the Go Back vans weren't strongly enough worded. She is on record saying that a minister in 2014 should take responsibility for mistakes in her department and resign. Her position is untenable and if Rudd is forced out,she could well follow and the government with her. Fingers crossed.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 07:18 PM

The principle of ministerial responsibility generally accepted in theory is that if serious mistakes are made, and this is the fault of administration interpreting policy in a way that goes against the intention of the minister, the responsibility rests on the officers rather than the minister. But if the mistakes are the result of carrying out the policy of the minister, it is the minister who should resign. That applies even if some of the consequences were not fully appreciated by the minister. (After all conviction for dangerous driving does not require that the driver intended to drive dangerously.)

In this case it seems clear that it was the latter, most especially in the case of Theresa May. It is impossible to see how she can remain in office without effectively destroying the doctrine of ministerial responsibility. This was a disastrous car crash with her at the wheel.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 08:12 PM

It is an old story. You can go back 50 years https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/04/20/603884872/an-anti-immigration-speech-divided-britain-50-years-ago-it-still-ech
a hundred years or 2000 years.

The 'other'and the 'different' are always scorned.
The men respondsible are called heroes or villains.
Now women can play that game

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 08:20 PM

That's a good reminder, Donuel, not lost on us Brits at the moment. But this woman is our prime minister. Enoch wasn't. His horrid speech resounds down the decades, shamefully. But this woman is actually in charge.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 01:48 AM

The fact that the decision to destroy landing cards for these people was taken by a Labour government in 2009 clearly and conveniently goes unnoticed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 02:14 AM

The initial decision to destroy the cards was indeed made while Labour was in office, though not by the minister, but the cards were not in fact destroyed until the October after the May election. By that time worries about the possible effects of the proposal had been raised by offices.

It was a remarkably stupid thing to do, and I hope that those responsible for it will be identified and shamed. But in itself it wouldn't have mattered too much if a new policy of harassing immigrants and creating "a hostile environment" had not been introduced subsequently. This meant a totally unrealistic burden of proof was imposed on them, with an assumption that they were lying, coupled with a strict policy of forbidding any flexibility or use of common sense and common humanity on the part of those given the responsibility for enforcing the new regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 02:39 AM

The decision was not made by the Labour government Bonzo but by an unelected bureaucrat in whitehall. The action was ratified and implemented on May's watch. But feel free to keep up the mudslinging. This typical Tory tactic is doing Labour's popularity No harm at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 03:05 AM

"The fact that the decision to destroy landing cards for these people was taken by a Labour government in 2009 "
Why do you people do this Bozo - are human beings so unimportant to you and yours for you to make political gain out of their misery ?
Immigrants were not given official documents in the Windrush days
These letters from The Times, from two people with insider knowledge of the affair (particularly the first writer) makes the situation of Commonwealth citizens entering Britain perfectly clear.
Jim Carroll

Windrush papers
Sir,
I am a bit bemused by the talk of Windrush arrivals in the 1950s and early 1960s having either landing cards or registration slips that were retained by the Home Office and reportedly destroyed comparatively recently. There was no immigration control relating to Commonwealth citizens at all before the passing of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1962; on arrival in the UK they showed their passports to an immigration officer and were allowed to enter no landing card, no stamp in the passport, nothing to record their arrival. Hence, I cannot think what these documents could have been.
The 1962 Act introduced a control of a sort but in its early days it was fairly light It was not until about late 1965 that a time limit of six months was imposed on Commonwealth visitors, but even then there was no automatic check-out procedure; if the immigration officer wished a person’s departure to be confirmed he completed the landing card and indicated in the passport that a card should be completed on departure, again by the immigration officer, and submitted to confirm embarkation. It was thus possible at that time for a Commonwealth citizen to be admitted for six months with no record of the arrival and no one would know if they left or overstayed.
PETER HILLMAN
Former chief immigration officer (Immigration Service 1965-2010), Horsham, W Sussex

Sir,
In my 33 years as a judge I dealt with thousands of immigration appeals. It is certainly the case that when Theresa May was home secretary she deliberately created a hostile environment for immigrants. On her watch immigration law, never simple, became of byzantine, bizarre complexity and with increasingly stringent and draconian provisions. This was not helped by the fact that the Home Office was, and manifestly still is, dysfunctional and not fit for purpose. If you are not an immigrant you may think that all this does not matter to you. It does, because it affects the rule of law and, thus, every man, woman and child in this country.
DR STEPHEN PACEY
North Muskham, Notts

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 03:24 AM

I have mentioned before that my daughter - born of English parents in an English hospital, lived in the UK her entire life and in possession of a UK passport was denied Job Seekers allowance and other benefits after she spent just over a year working abroad because the rules said she was to be regarded as an EU citizen, not a UK one.

I can only imagine the obstacles Windrush and similar immigrants need to go through

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 03:53 AM

Bonzo, I can't believe that you are trying to blame Labour for this. Labour did not destroy any landing cards, officials under Labour did not do so either. If it was thought at the time that these were not necessary, this is because nobody at the time could possibly forsee the extent to which the tories under May, first at the Home Office and then as PM, would pander to the disgusting xenophobia of UKIP, BNP, EDL etc. This is entirely at May's door, and she should go, and preferably take with her the entire Tory edifice.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 04:07 AM

I can remember the arrivals of many Commonwealth people to help get the country on its feet just after the War (early fifties). I lived in W London and many were recruited for London Transport, the Wolf Rubber factory and nurses for the large London hospitals, to name but a few jobs in that area.
I also remember those terrible signs put up in windows of rooms-to-let:
NO IRISH NO BLACKS NO DOGS and the overt racism and hostility directed towards immigrants.
They bravely weathered it and carried on, good workers and good citizens. And now this...

I can vouch for the idiocy and incompetence of the wretched Home Office. They were/are a bunch of nasty pigs. They caused my husband and me untold stress, worry and literally thousands of pounds (which was never recovered) due to what the Appeal judge called 'a basic error, plain and simple' (God bless the man!). They were nigh on impossible to contact, arrogant and rude in their attitude and made us despair.
Even those words "The Home Office", all these years later, engenders a kind of post-traumatic stress reaction in us both!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 10:29 AM

I dealt with the matter of the decision to destroy the landing cards on 20 April at 07.54am. I hoped to circumvent the possibility of some dolt bringing it up as a gratuitous attack on Labour, in vain it seems. Oh well.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 10:34 AM

Steve
Can I just say "Oh ye of little faith"

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 01:41 PM

Anyone know where the Windrush was built or what it was called when launched? Or who had it built? And why?

er - try the Hitler regime and as a publicity exercise. We call it PR these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 02:01 PM

If one is born in the U.K. is one then a natural citizen?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 02:36 PM

"Bonzo, I can't believe that you are trying to blame Labour for this. Labour did not destroy any landing cards, officials under Labour did not do so either. If it was thought at the time that these were not necessary, this is because nobody at the time could possibly forsee the extent to which the tories under May, first at the Home Office and then as PM, would pander to the disgusting xenophobia of UKIP, BNP, EDL etc. This is entirely at May's door, and she should go, and preferably take with her the entire Tory edifice."

dum de dum de dum!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 02:39 PM

Good argument, well made, Bonzo. Well, better than most Tory tripe anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 03:03 PM

We already know from the air strikes that Theresa May is Donald Trump's poodle. Well who'd have thought that she'd been Gordon Brown's poodle too... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 03:42 PM

No robomatic, one is not, unless one is born to a parent who is a British citizen of is settled in the UK. The UK, like Australia, has abolished the jus soli principle, and people born in the country are no longer automatically entitled to citizenship.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 06:57 PM

"If one is born in the U.K. is one then a natural citizen?"

No - unlike the situation in most of the American continent. Before 1983 it was the case, but then it was abolished by Margaret Thatcher. Now you have to have one parent a British subject. The result is that there are thousands of children in the UK deprived of citizenship, and of associated rights.

I understand the SNP intend to restore the right of anyone born in the country to be a citizen should they achieve independence. In keeping with that, in the referendum on independence, all residents could vote, regardless of nationality. In the Westminster referendum on EU membership only citizens had the vote. Nor did UK citizens resident elsewhere in the EU.So the people who were most adversely affected had no say in the decision. If they had that the outcome could well have been very different.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:54 AM

The thread should read British prime Minister and former Home Secretary and the right wing bigots she sucks up to shamed before the world. Those of urnbment, and those of us who reject wholeheartedly the idea of 'hostile environment' have absolutely nothing to be personally ashamed of, and should be proud that except for the government we are an open looking country which welcomes the enrichment that comes from those who honour us by aspiring to be our citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 04:49 AM

But there are millions of people who voted for them, and only a minority who voted against them. It's not just a few rotten apples at the top of the barrel.

But in any case there's a difference between shame and guilt. Those of us who voted against this lot can maybe protest reasonably that we aren't guilty of putting them in power, but that doesn't mean we don't feel shamed at what they have brought about in this long drawn out affair.

Look across the Atlantic - if you're American you don't need to have voted for Trump to feel shamed by his being President. You don't need to have picked up an assault rifle to feel ashamed of your country's record of massacres.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Win
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 06:09 AM

If someone has demonstrated that they were legally in this country at one point, and they have no passport, how can it be relevant or reasonable to require that they have been her continuously since that date?

Making those kinds of demands of proof, and denying someone's right to stay on the basis that they cannot produce documentary evidence is clearly unreasonable and abusive harassment.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 06:42 AM

We all know that, Kevin, but the rules were brought in by a party hell bent on clinging to control even if that meant pandering to the worse excesses of xenophobic little Englanders. Roll on the demise of this hateful administration.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 05:21 PM

The minority who voted against them runs to millions to.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:52 AM

If you counted the votes for, and other I think that minority might well be a majority. Like the Trump/Clinton statistics.

And if you counted the non-voters you can reasonably absolutely assume that the present government was voted in by a minority of the electorate** and even adding "biggest" must be predicated by the above paragraph.

**argueist are reminded to read as written, not as read!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:56 AM

I dealt with the matter of the decision to destroy the landing cards on 20 April at 07.54am. I hoped to circumvent the possibility of some dolt bringing it up as a gratuitous attack on Labour, in vain it seems. Oh well.

Even if they deserve it, please don't use this thread to bash Labour. It was obviously set up to bash the Tories!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:28 AM

Steve,
We already know from the air strikes that Theresa May is Donald Trump's poodle.

That would make Macron a poodle too, even though he was prepared to take independent action.

Kevin,
denying someone's right to stay on the basis that they cannot produce documentary evidence is clearly unreasonable and abusive harassment.

Then how could illegal migrants be removed from a country?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 12:31 PM

Keith - you took those words out of context, and removed some very significant qualifying words from the abbreviated sentence you gave.

Here is the post I made:
If someone has demonstrated that they were legally in this country at one point, and they have no passport, how can it be relevant or reasonable to require that they have been here continuously since that date?

Making those kinds of demands of proof, and denying someone's right to stay on the basis that they cannot produce documentary evidence is clearly unreasonable and abusive harassment.

I was talking about where unrealistic demands for specific bits of evidence are demanded, and other kinds of evidence, however compelling, are excluded. Read the case histories which are readily available, and see if you can reconcile them with honourable behaviour on the part of those responsible. And

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 12:56 PM

He does that, Kevin. I thought you had been around long enough to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 01:27 PM

I agree with the first sentence Kevin.
You did not make it clear that the second sentence only applied to people who arrived legally.
Now you have made it clear, I agree with you.

Dave, you are such a stirrer.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 07:44 PM

Fair enough Keith. I find it hard to read what I wrote in the sense that you understood it, but evidently I should have made my meaning clearer.
..........................
I believe we should always try to understand people we are engaged with in an exchange of views in a way that treats them with respect, and on the basis that they believe what they say to be true, and always to try to identify points of agreement. That even, and indeed especially, applies when we might doubt the honesty of those with whom we are dealing. (That is addressed to Dave, rather than Keith.)

Thisa tradition of disputation that has a long history, and I think it particularly relevant in the context of the internet. Here is a surprisingly relevant blog article that repays serious study.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:16 PM

Well I agree with all that, but with at least one remaining poster here the technique fails miserably. This bit: "...that is, by never outright denying a conclusion, the Master presumes the good will of the objector..." in his case is clearly a false presumption. Not only is good will lacking (replaced by the will to win), sensible debate is impossible as the "objector" constantly aims to ignore his perceived opponents' fair sentiments and set traps. We've all seen people of good will involved in interminable attempts to reason with him, but they simply end up looking like chumps. Hence our call to everyone to resist jumping through hoops and, instead, to talk past him. Sometimes, Kevin, even "the Master" might have admitted failure and simply shrugged and turned his back.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:07 AM

Yes, Kevin. Point taken. But to be honest I have tried over and over and over again only to have it thrown back in my face. I have given up and it feels really good. Like when you stop banging your head on a brick wall. I know it is probably my failing that I did not try harder but some people will try the patience of a saint.

But this thread is not my failings or those of anyone. It is about yet another failing of this dreadful government. Let's keep it at that and ignore the howls of protest that are likely to follow.

Thanks for taking the time to try and put me straight

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 06:37 AM

I would say that to "presume the good will of the objector" does not mean that you actually need to believe that that presumption accords with the truth. But to act in accordance with that presumption is necessary if there is to be any chance of a useful discussion. To do so is a willed action, rather than a reflection of opinion.

I'm in danger here of diverting this thread into a philosophical discussion which doesn't really belong here.

Out in the big world the Windrush episode appears to be having some significant developments. It's fascinating to see how Amber Rudd is trying to reposition herself as somehow not being herself responsible for the illegal actions which she condemns, and ostensively presents her self as correcting. (We'll see...)

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 09:38 AM

Disgraceful

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:05 PM

National Public Radio (US public radio) played a long interview tonight to describe this event in the UK. Your Windrush goes along with Trump's getting rid of the protections for the Dreamers, or wanting to build a stupid wall.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 03:08 AM

Illegals should be found and removed, most people agree with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 03:59 AM

But no one here is talking about illegal immigrants, Bonzo. These were people who were brought to the UK to help build our post war workforce, have lived, worked and paid taxes in the UK all their lives and now are faced with deportation due to the heartless and callous government that you support.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 04:30 AM

Yes Dave, but how do you tell the difference?
The Windrush generation are legal and welcome, or should be, but some have been left exposed to false doubt by changes to the rules.

It should not have happened, but what more could be done for them now by the government?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 04:34 AM

Deportee

Some of us are illegal, and some are not wanted,
Our work contract's out and we have to move on;
Six hundred miles to that Mexican border,
They chase us like outlaws, like rustlers, like thieves.

Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye, Rosalita,
Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria;
You won't have your names when you ride the big airplane,
All they will call you will be "deportees"

Let's stop calling our fellow human beings "illegal" or "illegals." If you can throw out ugly terms like that there's something wrong with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 04:56 AM

All countries have restrictions.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 07:44 AM

Illegal immigrants - they are what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 08:34 AM

The people being discussed are not and never have been illegal immigrants, Bonzo. WTF are you on about?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 09:18 AM

Jolly good!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 07:52 PM

Yes Dave, but how do you tell the difference?

You look for evidence that they are illegal immigrants, rather than assume they are here illegally, and throw the burden on them to find evidence that they are here legally.

If someone asked you to prove you were legally entitled to live here, and you couldn't get hold of a UK birth certificate, and didn’t have a passport, are you sure you could do so?
......................
Bonzo, I'm afraid you haven't actually registered that these people came here legally, as British subjects, born under the Union Jack, just not in the British Isles. They had every legal right to be there, and the British Government has now accepted that this was a giant cock-up.

It's different from what's happening in your countries - though the same kind of attitudes seem to lie behind the policy that's been followed for so many years. Keep Out.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 03:19 AM

You look for evidence that they are illegal immigrants, rather than assume they are here illegally,

There is no such evidence of illegal immigration, only absence of evidence of legal status.

The problem here is that the Windrush generation were left with no evidence of their status, and given none. The system let them down, or more accurately betrayed them.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 03:50 AM

"All countries have restrictions. "
Sez it all really - OK to turn ordinary people into criminals and deport them as long as it's sanctioned by Governments
There's a word for that Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 03:55 AM

Jim - Don't do it!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 08:55 AM

There is no such evidence of illegal immigration, only absence of evidence of legal status.

Of course there is. it may be harder to assemble than a presumption of illegality, but it is necessary in any system aspiring to be committed to justice. That's why courts have to prove guilt rather than the accused to prove innocence.

Evidence about the circumstances of how someone came here and where they came from can provide evidence of illegality. It would then be up to the individual to counter that, if it could be countered. In the case of the Windrush generation any proof of the circumstances of their arrival would in itself serve to undermine any accusation of illegal status. If the authorities wished to counter that they would need to find some other evidence that for some reason their presence was actually illegal.

As I asked, Keith, how would you go about proving your legal right to be here if challenged?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 11:18 AM

"Jim - Don't do it! "
Wasn't going to - woke up in a good mood this morning
These expulsions have been going on for at least eight years
A West Indian/British woman interviewed this morning described how a relative visited family and on his return was refused an entry visa - still hasn't been able to return home despite petitions
Not only has it been happening, it's been covered up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 01:31 PM

The whole thing is shameful. These people were used, plain and simple, to get the country back on its feet. They uprooted themselves, offered their labour and suffered racial abuse, low wages and poor accommodation. Then years later, used again to show how marvellous we are at reducing 'illegal immigrant' figures. They're just pawns in a political game.
They are NOT illegal immigrants in any sense. We should be thanking them profusely for their help at a time when we needed it.
The fact that the majority are black means that the racial persecution is even more despicable.
The Home Secretary should resign.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 01:33 PM

And after Brexit we'll have it happening all over again. Go back to Poland to go to the dentist and they'll stop you at Dover.

But at least they'll have the freedom to settle all over Europe, which the British won't have.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 04:20 AM

Kevin,
There is no such evidence of illegal immigration, only absence of evidence of legal status.

Of course there is.

I do not accept that. It is possible to prove you are legal, but absence of such proof is the only way to prove illegality.

As I asked, Keith, how would you go about proving your legal right to be here if challenged?

Birth Certificate. The problem is with folk born overseas and arrived as children without needing documentation then, but needing it now.

Jim,
"All countries have restrictions. "
Sez it all really - OK to turn ordinary people into criminals and deport them as long as it's sanctioned by Governments

What it sez is that no country allows unrestricted entry. It sez it is unfair to criticise this country for being the same as every other.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 06:02 AM

Are you really defending a sick act that a Government has been forced to apologise for Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 06:51 AM

A statement like 'all countries have restrictions' is entirely helpful, and potentially dangerous.

While all countries made their own legislation, in areas concerning migration, changes to legislation must only apply to those from the point legislation changes, and it is the responsibility of government to prove the status beyond any doubt whatsoever of the individual, not the responsibility of the individual to prove otherwise.

Further, the government has placed a further burdon on employers and service providers to seek irrefutable proof of entitlemenr on pain of financial penalties.

The whole issue has nothing to do whatsover whether the individual has documentary proof whether or not they are acting legally or illegally (lets take a hypothetical case where the CPS has the power to prosecute anyone who cannot provide proof that they have never shoplifted. The whole issue is 100% around the hostile environment policy, and I look forward to successful prosecutions against employers for direct discrimination on the ground of refusing employment to avoid being prosecuted for obeying hostile environment legislation, health services for refusing treatment, landlords for refusing tenancies etc. As it is 100% a party policy their must be no recourse whatsoever to the tax payer for any compnsation, but but be raised 100% by the tory party and its supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 07:05 AM

The question of "restrictions" do not apply to this case - those who are experiencing problems now are legally here and are so as the repayment of a debt own to ex colonial countries whose exploitation made Britain the wealthiest and placed here among the most powerful in the world
In my opinion, that debt was only partially paid, but if people included in its payment are treated as they are being, god help those still suffering with the hangover of Empire
What we are seeing here is the effects of a "don't blame us - it's all these foreigners faults that you are having problems" scapegoating policy
It's a policy that sent millions to the extermination camps during my lifetime
The rise in racism in Britain is an indication that things could get worse in this respect
Why blame Britain for something others do?
Because in acting the way they do our government has shames us all - that's why
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 07:12 AM

What we are seeing here is the effects of a "don't blame us - it's all these foreigners faults that you are having problems" scapegoating policy

No it is not.
No-one has supported what has happened and there has been no "scapegoating."

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 07:29 AM

You are defending something that your Government has agreed was wrong and has grovellingly apologised for
All the debate surrounding immigration is about scapegoating - it always has been since the days of "they are only here to steal or jobs and women
Sorry - no intention of becoming involved with someone even more extreme - I'll leave you to your anti-immigration soab-boxingthan those who implemented inhuman policy in the first place
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 07:59 AM

Jim,
You are defending something that your Government has agreed was wrong

A blatant lie Jim. Quote me doing it.

SPB,
The whole issue is 100% around the hostile environment policy,.....As it is 100% a party policy

Labour's last Immigration Minister said he wanted to create "a much more hostile environment" to "flush out" illegal migrants.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 08:04 AM

The Government have just announced they have refused visas to 100 new Indian doctors hired by the NHS
Worse and worse- we need to hang our heads in shame (all but one of us, of course)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 08:30 AM

400 VISAS
My mistake - that shou;d be 400 VISAS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 08:47 AM

Refusing qualified doctors from non-EU countries is mad. As Jim's article says, there's already a grave shortage of staff, and the existing doctors will have to extend their hours to cover the gaps, or lengthen waiting lists for treatment. Where's the advantage in that?

I drove my neighbour to an Outpatients appointment recently at our Norfolk and Norwich University Hospital, and sitting in the waiting area, we noticed the wide variety of nationalities among the staff that passed through. It was lovely to see; Indian, African, Philippine, Chinese and so on. All no doubt desperately needed (porters, nurses, doctors, receptionists and so on)

They seem to be cutting off their noses to spite their faces by turning these valuable folk away.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 08:53 AM

This has been the situatiion from as far back as the Notting Hill Race riots
I remember a wonderful cartoon by Giles when I was a young man, which showed wounded rioting racist thugs being carried into a hospital to be treated by black doctors - sums it all up for me - some people would rather be in painn that be treated by a "foreigner"
Mad - mad - mad - sad world
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 09:06 AM

Our optician is a lovely Nigerian chap. The trouble is, he and my husband and I natter away together, and the eye tests always run over time. hee hee

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 09:56 AM

"The trouble is, he and my husband and I natter away together,"
My problem is our doctor who is also a friend and we share an interest in traditional music and historical novels - not good with a waiting room full of patients
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 10:04 AM

We're terrible natterers Jim.
Just today at the checkout in Asda, we were behind another mixed-race couple. We all smiled, then we got chatting. The man was a black African and his wife white English, just like us. They also spoke French, and that was it. Yap yap yap. I had bought a tub of ice-cream, and it was slowly melting. But it was so lovely to have a natter.

I liked your description of the Giles cartoon. I bet these racist idiots would be only too relieved to have emergency treatment for a loved one by any nationality at all when the chips were down.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 11:14 AM

Our medical people in rural Ireland tend to be somewhat more part of the community than I ever remember happening in London - not always an advantage
i remamber drinking with a friend in our local and his being told by the publican that he had been ordered off the drink by his local doctor - news travels fast in the countryside
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 11:49 AM

Refusing qualified doctors from non-EU countries is mad.

Not just doctors. We have a neighbour from India who's a qualified dentist. So he's got a job in a convenience store while he goes through a long process which he hopes will end up allowing to work as a dentist.

After Brexit the same kind of thing will no doubt be happening to people from EU countries.

And the extra pressure being imposed on health workers by the shortages is meaning more and more professionals are giving up, heading off to places like Australia - or in the case of people at the lower end of the wage scale, going off to jobs with less pressure and more money, such as supermarkets.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:21 PM

McGrath, is that the Home Office or is that an issue of his qualifications not being recognised in the UK? Not sure what the arrangements are for reciprocal recognition of dentistry qualifications.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 07:00 PM

Amber Rudd appears to be fighting for her political career
First she denied there were targets for forcing immigrants to return - now she has admitted that there was “a target of achieving 12,800 enforced returns in 2017-18” and that this target had been exceeded."
It is reckoned that if Rudd is forced to resign May's position will be extremely insecure
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:28 AM

She now says she had not read the memo giving details of targets for deporting immigrants. She is either lying or incompetent. Either way she needs to resign. With Rudd as home secretary, BoJo as foreign secretery and a dithering May as PM it is little wonder that the UK has become a laughing stock.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 04:08 AM

I wonder what May promised Amber for taking the crotch-kicks on her behalf?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 04:26 AM

Diane Abbott on R4 today acknowledged that a Labour government would also have had targets for enforced returns.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 05:08 AM

There's a hell of a difference between keeping records of what you have done, including any kind of enforced returns, and having targets. What's tended to happen is that the Home Office has been sloppy with keeping records (when they haven't actually destroyed them) but had some quite inappropriate targets.

I would hope Diana Abbot would indeed ensure that under a Labour government a close eye will be kept on the numbers of enforced returns.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 06:25 AM

"
Diane Abbott on R4 today acknowledged that a Labour government would also have had targets for enforced returns.
DIANE ABBOTT ON IMMIGRATION
DIANE ABBOTT ON IMMIGRATION
DIANE ABBOTT ON IMMIGRATION
Asked how the targets had impacted on Windrush migrants, Ms Abbott said: "Immigration officials may have been looking for soft targets in the shape of West Indian pensioners who don't have hot shot lawyers."
Her Labour frontbench colleague, Dawn Butler, told the BBC's Daily Politics Mrs May was "presiding over a government that has policies that are institutionally racist".
Amazing how you can present a party's policy if you listen with your ears closed tightly enough
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:03 AM

Labour's policy was also to expel illegals.
The Windrush folk were not illegal but had been left by successive governments with no way to prove it.

Gove on R4 with Abbott said that Labour had "weaponised" this issue to divert attention from their anti-Semitism scandals.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:08 AM

What people need to know about Gove


In a BBC interview with Fern Britton, Gove said he knew the phrase “doing a Gove” had become synonymous with backstabbing, and that May had been right to sack him.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:37 AM

It was OK for Jim to quote anti-Tory accusations from Diane Abbott and Dawn Butler, so I assumed it OK to quote a Tory minister on Labour.

Let us try to be fair on this Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:48 AM

Maybe it's best not to trust Gove with the big things.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:53 AM

...or with anything at all

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:58 AM

The Thoughts of Chairman Gove on immigration 1
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/michael-gove-live-radio-interview-immigration-figures-conservatives-nick-ferrari-dianne-abbott-a7742746.html

The Thoughts of Chairman Gove on immigration 2
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-michael-gove-immigration-spain-vote-leave-criticised-a7085336.html

The Thoughts of Chairman Gove on immigration 3
http://www.thenational.scot/community/15073732.Letters_I__Michael_Gove_told_us_Scotland_would_get_greater_control_over_immigration_post_Brexit/

The Thoughts of Chairman Gove on immigration 4
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/eu-immigrant-influx-michael-gove-nhs-unsustainable


The Thoughts of Chairman Gove on The Peace Process
BELFAST AGREEMENT A "RIGGED REFERENDUM" AND A MORTAL STAIN "
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 09:14 AM

So could you flesh out your claim that Diane Abbot has said that Labour will have "targets" for enforced deputation, Keith? It sounds very unlikely that that is an accurate summary of whatever she may have said.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:04 PM

In answer to a question, she stated that a Labour government would have such targets.
It was between 08.10 and 08.30. It starts at 07.00
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b0lwgd

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:43 PM

" "targets" for enforced deputation, Keith?"
Typical of Keith's disortion - under pressure Abbot said that Labour would have a policy of the return of ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS
Nobody has ever suggested that such immigrants should remain bu this has nothing to do with the Windrush generation who are in Britain perfectly legally and were given no documentation on entry - just a total agrreement that thye should have a permanent home in Britian
Where do we get these ****** fanatics
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 01:08 PM

I confidentially assume that, if Diane Abbot actually said and intended to say anything that actually matches Keith's interpretation, it will be reported across the media prominently, and that she can expect to be sacked by Corbyn very rapidly.

I won't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 01:23 PM

Jim,
Typical of Keith's disortion - under pressure Abbot said that Labour would have a policy of the return of ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS

Yes, just like the Tories.
Neither would have targets for returning legal ones.

kevin, I gave you the link. I will give the actual quote later or tomorow.
Why not listen yourself before making insinuations?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:22 PM

"We are talking about enforced removals. We are talking about illegal immigrants. People who shouldn't be in the country at this time. Would not the Labour Party have targets for the removal of illegal immigrants?"

Abbott, "I just said to you any government department should have targets and performance indicators."

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:34 PM

"Targets and performance indicators" means something very different from just targets. Obviously you need to know what you are trying to do and what's actually happening.

Your target in this case would be reducing to zero the number of wrongful deportations, just as your target in relation to benefits is bearing down hard on any wrongful denials of provision.

On the walls of wards in our hospital they have target indicators showing the number of occasions something has gone wrong, such as a fall. The aim is to reduced that number to nil, and keep it as nil.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:49 PM

Targets and performance indicators" means something very different from just targets

No it does not. It means targets and other PIs as well.

Your target in this case would be reducing to zero the number of wrongful deportations,

No. That is assumed anyway.

The Tory targets were for removing illegals, and Labour would have them too.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:02 PM

"Neither would have targets for returning legal ones."
The Tories have been illegally detaining legal immigrants and threatening them with deportation
That is what we are discussing - not the ***** illegal immigrants Abbott referred to
Hopefully Rudd and May will be kicked out on their arses for doing so and all those persecuted by their racist policies fully compensated
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:49 PM

I'd love to imagine a Home Office and Benefit Agency Offices where walls were festooned with charts showing the number of decisions overturned by the courts, and identifying that as institutional, and individual, failure. But somehow I don't think it's that way at present.
.........
In today's Guardian Suzanne Moore sums up the situation rather nicely. (I'm pedantically using that term as it should be used.) "We've reached the point in a movie where May is using Amber Rudd's political corpse as a bullet shield."

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 02:21 AM

The Tories have been illegally detaining legal immigrants and threatening them with deportation

No they have not.
The immigration authorities have been wrongly apprehending legal citizens because successive governments had left them with no evidence of their status.

The authorities are mandted to take such action against people with no evidence of being here legally. The problem was that successive governments left genuine people without any means to demonstrate their status.
The Tories have now rectified that.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:48 AM

having said that, I agree with McGrath that Rudd has been incompetent, and her statement about targets could justify her being sacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:11 AM

Individual civil servants who apply a policy - even if it is obeying orders (Dostler Case) - on the basis of the burden of proof of entitlement being on the part of individual as opposed to the burden of proof of non-entitlement being on the part of the institution must be called out. Surely fear of retribution from decent people would then be sufficient motivation to behave decently - including telling ministers of any party who apply immoral legislation where they can go.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 06:19 AM

Rudd is shielding May from the flak she should be rightly getting. Even if she goes from the position she is in you can be sure that Amber will be looked after by her cronies.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:20 PM

She's resigned - announced a few minutes ago. About time.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:36 PM

I can't see how locking up someone who has legal status can be legal, in the absence of evidence that they are illegal. The fact that they have not produced that evidence is not evidence of illegality. If they have

I would argue that what has happened is evidence of criminal conspiracy on the part of the government.

Roll on a trial of the relevant people in the European Court of Human Rights!

..........
I've just heard the news. One down, one to go. Assuming May won't resign come what may, it's time to revive the process of impeachment in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:42 PM

May won't resign because her immensely-rich cabal of Tax-avoiding/evading puppet-masters wont permit her to - she is required by them to deliver a hard Brexit prior to the introduction of the new EU anti-tax-avoidance and evasion rules which come into force in May, 2019.

Once she's fulfilled that task, who knows - she'll probably be cast aside and abandoned to her fate.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 06:22 PM

Poor woman, she was a bloody good Home Secretary.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 07:34 PM

She did not carry out her legal and moral duties when it came to the Windrush generation. She presided over and colluded in actions of gross injustice, which have shamed this country in the eyes of the world, even after these were brought to her attention. That is not being a good Home Secretary.

However she was a lot better than her predecessor, it must be admitted.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:55 AM

and if abbott attempted that post - I couldn't possibly comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:05 AM

So the left & mainstream media get their kill. In the meantime Corbyn doesn't do anything over the anti-Semitism that is rife in his party.

Abbott makes gaffe after gaffe

The world is now run by social media & the press apparently!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:48 AM

She presided over the deportation, and threatened deportation, of immigrants and their families from Commonwealth countries who were invited here during the post-WW2 rebuilding, and who have a legal right to be here and remain here.

She claimed not to know anything about it, despite being the Minister responsible for it.

She then admitted that she did know about it.

She countenanced illegal deportations, she was complicit in an illegal act.

She lied to Parliament, an act specifically proscribed by Parliamentary regulations. Here's what it says on Page 30 of the Parliamentary Code...

"It is of paramount importance that Ministers give accurate and truthful information to Parliament, correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity. Ministers who knowingly mislead Parliament will be expected to offer their resignation to the Prime Minister."

What don't you understand about that, Bozo? You're not a Thick Cunt, stop pretending to be one.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:56 AM

Your post Backwoodsman sums it all up very succinctly.
She should have fallen on her sword ages ago, I'm glad she's gone. Serves her right.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:14 AM

Thanks, Sen. And apologies for my coarse language, I do have a tendency to allow my language to degenerate occasionally, but I'm from a background where people call a spade a f***ing spade, and sometimes I just can't stop myself! But I do have the grace to feel shame afterwards! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:28 AM

I can't see how locking up someone who has legal status can be legal, in the absence of evidence that they are illegal. The fact that they have not produced that evidence is not evidence of illegality

Again, there can be no evidence of illegality, only absence of legality evidence, and it clearly is legal to detain such people.

The fault lies with successive governments who failed to provide the Windrush folk with evidence, or to even recognise that there was an issue.

Kate Hoey said on Peston that they had targets for removing illegals under Jack Straw, and I am sure there has been ever since.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:32 AM

Her job, all along, has been to keep the flak off May - that was clearly given to her as her main priority by Theresa The Praying Mantis, and she's done it very well. She was The Praying Mantis's umbrella and flak-taker during the last GE, appearing on TV numerous times to answer hard questions which, by right, May herself should have faced had she had the courage. Rudd has appeared regularly since, answering for things that rightly should be May's responsibility.

Now, she's taken the fall for The Praying Mantis one final time. I'd love to know what May promised her for being her fall-guy and taking all the shit, I just hope, for Amber's sake, that May has the decency to stick to her promise.

But I suspect she hasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:44 AM

Can may be far behind (as the poem says)
TIME FOR LORD SNOOTY and his gang
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:39 AM

Rudd has gone - replaced by Sajiv Jhan.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:39 AM

Typo - Khan!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:42 AM

Can we clear up this "illegal" thing
If the arrest, detention and threat of deportation of citizens legally living in Britain is not covered by British law, then Britain is a police state
This doesn't just involve arrest, but at leas one legal resident of Britain who went to the West Indies to visit relatives has been denied the right to return home for eight years - we don't know yet if there are more who have experienced the same treatment
If this is not a national crime, then it is a human rights abuse and needs to be treated as such
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:51 AM

That would happen to anyone in any country who lacked the relevant papers.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 06:00 AM

I think the new Home Secretary is called Sajid Javid (not Khan) but I may be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 06:40 AM

If it's the bloke who looks like Humpty-Dumpty In a hot summer, it's Sajid Javid.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:31 AM

Sajid Javid.
A former official at Chase Manhattan Bank and Managing Director of Deutsche Bank at £3m a year
At a Conservative Friends of Israel lunch in 2012, The Jewish Chronicle reported Javid as stating that "if he had to leave Britain to live in the Middle East, then he would choose Israel as home. Only there, he said, would his children feel the 'warm embrace of freedom and liberty'".
The future of Britain's minorities is in a safe pair of hands then!!!
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:31 AM

Hahaha yes, he doesn't have much hair does he? Apparently he used to be managing director of Deutsche Bank. Hmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:51 AM

Can we legitimately call him a Merchant Banker?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 09:26 AM

"Can we legitimately call him a Merchant Banker? "
Doncha just love rhyming slang!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 01:28 PM

"If it's the bloke who looks like Humpty-Dumpty In a hot summer, it's Sajid Javid"

He'll look very good opposite a hippo in a cold spring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 01:54 PM

"Any country", Keith? I am countries who don't deserve that insult. Countries where the authorities in cases like this would realise that they needed to supply evidence of illegal status before imprisoning people who claimed to be here legally, but who couldn’t produce required evidence.

Such as in the case of people such as Hubert Howard, who had a passport from Jamaica with an official signature on a stamp indicating he had arrived at the age of three 58 years ago, and who supplied evidence of school attendance, but who lost his job and his home because the Home Office refused to accept those as valid evidence.

Stop making excuses for stuff that not even Theresa May would now excuse, Keith. Do you really believe "That would happen to anyone in any country". There are some countries where I can imagine that happening, true enough. I hope there aren't many. One is more than enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:52 PM

FOR FUCK SAKE WHO CARES?????????

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:58 PM

The people affected care. Their relatives care. Their friends care. Their workmates at jobs that they have lost care. People who value justice care. People who value compassion care. And, although I do not personally know anybody affected, I care.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:24 PM

Bonzo is the archetypal Tory, David. He does not understand what you are talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:38 PM

Absolutely!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:42 PM

Amber Rudd I suspect cares very much about the consequences. So does Theresa May,, though one must hope that she will care much more before too long.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:10 PM

I care very much. People have suffered as a result of this cruel policy.
And I'm a Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:12 PM

I am shocked. You sound so reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:39 PM

You're not an archetypal Tory though, Sen. You just vote for them! I don't understand it but it is your choice and I will not fall out with you for it. I am sure you want to distance yourself from people with Bonzo's attitude. (Which I suspect is not the real Bonzo BTW. He just likes to play troll every now and then)

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:10 PM

There have been some very odd and aggressive posts recently from Bonzo haven't there? Sad, because I've often had some lovely conversations with him over the years. Perhaps it isn't him after all. A while ago, someone posted some awful stuff in my username, and Joe had to delete it all.
My husband is a lovely, caring and kindly man, and he too votes Tory!
(runs off donning tin hat)

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 06:21 PM

Most people actually are good people. It's easy to forget that., because so often the bad people seem to be in charge. I don't know if being in charge turns them bad, or because they are particularly equipped to get in positions of power. A bit of both, I suspect.

As the verse puts it:
"The rain it raineth on the just
And also on the unjust fellas
But chiefly on the just, because
The unjust steal the just’s umbrellas.”

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 06:30 PM

When I was quite young, my mother took me on the bus into West Ealing. It was when Caribbean immigrants had just started to arrive, and a very black chap got on our bus. I'd never seen one before, and shouted out very excitedly, "Mummy! Mummy! Look! A chimney sweep has got on the bus!" She nearly died of shame (none of my family has ever been racist) and turned to apologise profusely to the man. I remember to this day how he laughed and laughed, and his lovely white teeth shone.
I didn't know it then, but in the future I'd travel all over West Africa and marry a man from Ivory Coast!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 18 - 03:10 AM

I have a theory on those in power, Kevin. If someone believes they are capable of running a country and making decisions that affect millions of peoples lives they should be barred from holding any position of power on the grounds of insanity. The people you want running things are the normal, nice, ordinary folk that manage their own lives very well and have no greed or delusions of grandeur.

I am available... :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 03:51 AM

"And I'm a Tory. "
I hope people here are discussing politicians rather than individuals, Sen, though I will say that you are not helped by you fellow Tory's FOR FUCK SAKE WHO CARES?????????
These actions were carried out to meet targets - those who set those targets are ultimately responsible
Is immigration really such a serious problem as to need targeting?
When Enoch Powell said it was his party ostracised him and the only people who would accept him were sectarian Northern Irish bigots
I would have thought there were far more serious issues that deserve targeting - the
THE RAPID RISE IN RACISM in Britain is far more important than making the lives of people who have lived in Britain and contributed to its well-being miserable and insecure.
"A chimney sweep has got on the bus!"
The beautiful Terence Davies film, 'The Long Day Closes', based on his Liverpool childhood, depicts a similar reaction - not from a child but an adult
When I was an apprentice on the docks in Liverpool I remember the eager friendliness of many of the seamen, Africans and Lascars in particular, who would share their food with us (I fell in love with curry on a ship berthed in The Albert Dock)
I never got over the shock of the sign carved over the then segregated public dock toilets (in marble) which read on one side "MEN" and on the other "ASIATICS"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 May 18 - 04:09 AM

I'd vote for you Dave! :)

That's horrifying Jim. A quarter of us admit to being racist! It's so ignorant, and to assume someone who is of a different race is less intelligent or less able is appalling.

I'm not sure how one tackles racism. We're lucky as no-one over the years here in Norfolk has ever exhibited anything like that towards us. And we've noticed more and more mixed-race couples going round the supermarkets with their trolleys. Lovely to see.

I have a (perhaps misguided!) view that most people (of any race) are good-hearted, but that figure of 25% shows I'm wrong about that.
I've had "Toubab!" shouted at me in Senegal, but it only means, "Aha! A white lady!" and I didn't see it as any more than a sort of observation.
Sigh. What can be done to change people's unkind and hurtful attitudes?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 May 18 - 04:40 AM

the problem we have now is that the government is so weak it has to play to the gallery of the worst and most racist aspects of their own party. This doesn't mean that every Tory voter is racist - misguided mainly, but it can only be down to individual voters to knock the more extreme elements into touch so the tail no longer has the dog to wag.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 04:56 AM

Kevin,
Countries where the authorities in cases like this would realise that they needed to supply evidence of illegal status

Not true because there is no "evidence of illegal status" to supply. The system here and in every other country relies on evidence of legal status, and all countries expel people who have no such evidence.

Stop making excuses for stuff that not even Theresa May would now excuse, Keith.

What I have said is not an excuse, and the treatment of these people has been inexcusable. They were shamefully mistreated and I have said so all along.

I just object to it being politicised. The Windrush folk should never have been left without proof of status. No one government is to blame for that, and Labour started the "hostile environment" thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 05:13 AM

" but that figure of 25% shows I'm wrong about that."
Not really Sen
Those who rule us invariably cover up their inadequacies by blaming others - "foreigners" have long been the scapegoat
Some of the most generous, warm-hearted people I have ever met have suffered from the Achilles heel of racism
West Clare, where I live, is noted for its friendliness, yet its attitude to Travellers still makes me weep at times
Misguided doesn't automatically mean bad
The term Xenophobia dates back to ancient Greece, from the time the Greek army had been sent to invade Persia and had been abandoned by its Government and left to make its way back home through hostile territory - a fear based on betrayal - a perfect example of what's happening today
Most "racists" don't act on their prejudices, (I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've heard someone say to a foreigner, "I'm not talking about you".
I find racism a distressing aspect of our society, but I believe the ones who openly advocate racial superiority and intolerance truly intolerable, which is why I fall out with the people I do as often as I do on this forum
(I'm not talking about you, of course!!!!)   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 06:42 AM

Acts of politicians should not be politicised, from someone who has politicised the rape of children and the harassment and rape of women politicians!!
Funny old world eh!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 18 - 06:47 AM

Not true because there is no "evidence of illegal status" to supply.

That is nonsense. The Home Office didn't see any need to look for such evidence. It is in many cases perfectly possible to prove the circumstances of a migrant's arrival in this country, for a start. In the case of the Windrush generation that was prima facie evidence of their legal status here.

If the claim was that at some time in the past few decades they had spent sustained periods of time outside the country in a way that deprived them of legal status here, it would be perfectly possible to seek evidence that would prove that to be the case.

In some cases perhaps it might be seen as difficult or even impossible to find proof of someone's illegal status. In that case their right to stay would be recognised. If in some cases people would be granted that status when they were not entitled, that's how it goes. Better by far to err in that direction than the other way, as has been done till now.

It was much easier not to bother to seek that kind of evidence, and just demand that people had to produce some particular proof to confirm their legal status, while refusing to accept other forms of proof. But it was fundamentally unjust, as the government now belatedly admits. It was also almost certainly in breach of legally binding human rights legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 May 18 - 07:39 AM

It is possible to go too far in the other direction:
In some cases perhaps it might be seen as difficult or even impossible to find proof of someone's illegal status. In that case their right to stay would be recognised. If in some cases people would be granted that status when they were not entitled, that's how it goes. Better by far to err in that direction than the other way, as has been done till now.
If an illegal immigrant enters the UK tonight on the back of a lorry, and disappears into a local neighbourhood without being captured on CCTV. When he reappears tomorrow morning, what 'evidence can be found to show that he is an illegal immigrant? Are we to take his word for his legal status?

Lack of proof that he is here illegally is not proof that he is here legally.
Similarly:
Lack of proof that he is here legally is not proof that he is here illegally.

Each case needs to be treated on its own merits.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 18 - 08:09 AM

Lack of evidence can never prove anything and in a country which works on the innocent until proven guilty that is a very significant fact.

My birth certificate has the surname 'Polakow', which is not my name now. If I did not have the deed poll certificate of my name change, how could I prove I was born here?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 18 - 08:36 AM

You'd keep looking till you find evidence, direct or circumstantial. If you picked up some random stranger and accused them of a crime you'd have to find some kind of reason more than that they just haven't got an alibi. "You've no proof where you were that night, so we'll find you guilty."

As you say, Nigel, every case has to be treated on its own merits. That means looking for different kinds of evidence - it shouldn't mean dispensing with any need to find evidence

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:25 AM

Lack of proof that he is here legally is not proof that he is here illegally.

Maybe not, but not having proof of status will get you expelled and not just under the Tories and not just in Britain.

It is in many cases perfectly possible to prove the circumstances of a migrant's arrival in this country,

No problem in that case, but the Windrush children were left with nothing.

In the case of the Windrush generation that was prima facie evidence of their legal status here.

What was? There was no evidence of their boarding or landing. It was decided to burn those records in 2009.

Most children had nothing to show how they got here, or that they were entitled to say.

In some cases perhaps it might be seen as difficult or even impossible to find proof of someone's illegal status. In that case their right to stay would be recognised

No it would not. That would make it impossible to remove any illegal immigrant. There is no way to prove that anyone arrived illegally. It would be an automatic and immediate amnesty for everyone as soon as they stepped off the lorry or boat.

But it was fundamentally unjust, as the government now belatedly admits.

The government never denied it. It is obviously unjust that those people were left without proof of status. No one government is to blame for that injustice.

There are estimated to be over a million illegal immigrants in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 10:07 AM

"Are we to take his word for his legal status?"
Sounds more and more like Nazi Germany looking for Jews
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 18 - 10:54 AM

Entire UK to be deported for not keeping all their paperwork

Roll on... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 11:16 AM

"Are we to take his word for his legal status?"
Sounds more and more like Nazi Germany looking for Jews

Really?
What country in the world would accept an assurance from a suspected illegal immigrant that they were legal?
None.
When you are accepted you are provided with proof of your status.
Or should be.
Successive governments have failed these people.
It is shameful that their plight is being used for political point scoring by the Left.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 18 - 11:36 AM

It's even more shameful that the Tories destroyed the records of their legal right to be here, then used that as an excuse to kick them out, refuse medical treatment, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 12:07 PM

If you mean the boarding and landing passes, the decision to destroy was made under Labour.

then used that as an excuse to kick them out, refuse medical treatment, etc

Labour policy on illegals was and is the same.
You are just using their plight for political point scoring.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 18 - 12:14 PM

But they were destroyed by the Tories. Nobody forced them, they decided to carry it out themselves.

You are just being a troll, as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 18 - 12:18 PM

On what grounds should someone who has lived and worked in this country for years be suspected of being an illegal immigrant in the first place? Would being black be sufficient to justify asking for documents? There has to be some additional indication.

Keith, not even Theresa May is now saying the things you are saying. It is recognised now that inability to produce documents is not in itself proof of illegal status.

Never mind. Be glad you aren’t Home Secretary faced with trying to sort this out, and live with the flack when the promises about undoing that harm that has been done turn out to be as hollow as the promises made to Grenfell survivors.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 12:22 PM

Is this inhumanbeing still defending something the Tories have just lost a Minister over ?
Un-be-lie-vable
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 18 - 12:28 PM

Don't. Feed. The. Feeble-minded. Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 01:28 PM

Ditto Baccy
It only work if we all agree to it
His mindless inhumanity is very tempting though - probably not getting the attention at home so he comes here to get some from us
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 18 - 01:45 PM

I know, Jim. I sometimes forget, and jump through one of his feeble-minded hoops myself. Then I remind myself what a pathetic, childish little twerp he is. I'll bet he used to pull the legs off spiders when he was young. (I almost said when he was a child, but I remembered in time that he's still a child).

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 18 - 01:52 PM

He wouldn't hurt a fly actually. (Hertford isn’t far from Harlow.)

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 02:32 PM

But they were destroyed by the Tories. Nobody forced them, they decided to carry it out themselves.

Yes, the Tories carried out Labour policy, so they are both as bad as each other.

On what grounds should someone who has lived and worked in this country for years be suspected of being an illegal immigrant in the first place? Would being black be sufficient to justify asking for documents?

No. You now have to prove citizenship to get a job or rent a house whatever colour you are.

Keith, not even Theresa May is now saying the things you are saying. It is recognised now that inability to produce documents is not in itself proof of illegal status.

Only since the plight of Windrush folk was recognised. They are legal but have no proof, so the system is now seen to be flawed, but only for people with that history.

Is this inhumanbeing still defending something the Tories have just lost a Minister over ?

If you mean me, the Minister was sacked because she said there were no targets, not because Windrush was her's or the Tories' fault. It was not.

He wouldn't hurt a fly actually. (Hertford isn’t far from Harlow.)

Thanks Kevin. Long time no see.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 18 - 02:47 PM

To clarify the issue of documentation.

2009 – Destruction of documents begins

In June 2009, the UK Border Agency approved the business case for disposing of millions of paper records.

The Home Office told us that it was then that the landing cards – or “registry slips” as they’re officially known – were earmarked for destruction. The work began in December of that year.

Alan Johnson was the Labour Home Secretary at the time. When asked if he knew that the registry slips were being destroyed, he said: “No, it was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency.”

2010 – Registry slips destroyed

Although the decision was made in 2009, it wasn’t until October 2010, when the Conservative-Lib Dem Coalition government were in power, that the registry slips were actually disposed of. The Home Office described this to us as an “operational decision”.

Theresa May was Home Secretary at the time, but we haven’t seen evidence either way to suggest that she knew about, or signed off, the decision.

Of course none of this mattered until...

2012 – Hostile environment policy introduced

In May 2012, Theresa May declared: “the aim is to create here in Britain a really hostile environment for illegal migration.”

And sure enough, the Immigration Act 2014 brought in new powers to help the Home Office and other government agencies make life difficult for illegal migrants.

But many have claimed that those same policies have been unfairly damaging and intrusive to people who are here legally, including the Windrush generation.

The more astute amongst you will spot the close proximity of the destruction of the papers and the introduction of the hostile environment and the fact that it was during May's watch that this happened. The more cynical of us can draw our own conclusions. Some idiot will say it was pure coincidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 02:52 PM

"I'll bet he used to pull the legs "
Only when he couldn't get dogs or small children to do it to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain shamed before world - Windrush
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 18 - 02:54 PM

"Yes, the Tories carried out Labour policy, so they are both as bad as each other."

No, the policies of 'Hostile Environment' and deportation of immigrants from Commonwealth countries who have been established here for 50 years or more are the policies of the Conservatives, no-one else.

Why do you continue to defend the indefensible (other than you being a disgusting racist specimen, which you have demonstrated over and over again on this forum)?

---

The insults are getting personal. Thread closed.
-Joe Offer-