are very long folk songs boring?

Subject: are very long folk songs too boring?
From: Andy7
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:08 PM

Yes, they very often are, imho!

I do love, and value, the fact that the old, traditional songs are kept alive in our folk clubs.

And yet, if they have way too many verses, and go on and on and on, I start to find that I'm a little bit less in favour of perpetuating those wonderful old songs, and a little bit more in favour of the concept of a '3-minute pop song'!

Although maybe it's just that my attention span, like that of most people these days, has become a lot shorter than it used to be?

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:22 PM

Mega tragedia, mega kakon.

Long songs aren't boring, it's the singers. You prefer the 3 minute pop song? What do you prefer in bed?

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:30 PM

are story tellers, boring?
3 minute popsongs are often tedious IMO, EVEN IF THEY ARE ONLY 3 M8INUTES LONG THEY ARE OFTEN 3 MINUTES TOO LONG.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Stower
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:54 PM

Is a 90 minute film boring? Are 30 second adverts better? Are books boring? Are short newspaper columns better? Is a big painting boring? Are miniatures better?

These are irrelevant questions. Films and adverts do different jobs, as do books and columns, and large paintings and miniatures, as do short songs and big ballads. Big ballads are written that way for a purpose. They build, they create drama. They take as long as they take, like a good novel, like a gripping film.

Whether a big ballad is any good depends entirely on the quality of the verses, the durability of the melody, the performer and the performance - and indeed the audience. It has nothing to do with the length, any more than The Lego Movie (100 minutes) is better than Gone With The Wind (238 mintes) because it's shorter.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Rigby
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 06:04 PM

I haven't been lucky enough to go to many folk clubs where people are keeping long traditional ballads alive. Please tell me where I can find them!

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 06:12 PM

If you're conscious of the length of a traditional song, the singer has failed. It's about engagement. If the singer/song fails to engage the listener, it will seem too long. If it succeeds - they'll wonder where the time went!

Regards

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 07:06 PM

Sadly mostly yes - unless there is a particularly talented singer who can inject life into such a song. Sadly these are rare beasts indeed. In fact usually the worse the singer the longer the song......I know of quite a few people who go to the bar when a certain singer of such songs gets up. I am usually too slow ;-)

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 07:17 PM

More down to the singer in my experience.

But
some songs do make me groan. Modernish ones with choruses along the lines of
I love you, why did you go, I love you, why did you go,
I love you, why did you go, I love you, why did you go,
(repeat)
Love you, love you, love love love you
Why...... oh....... why.........
Did........ you ..........go....o.o.o......o.o.o.

Can any singer drive any interest into those songs?

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: meself
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 07:46 PM

If you find them boring, then they are boring - to you. If you don't find them boring, then they are not boring - to you. Rocket science.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 07:52 PM

The singer of whom I spoke earlier also had the habit of stringing two shorter (but still very long in his hands) songs together so the escape to the bar after the first one was thwarted. It was clear that audiences were being driven away so action had to be taken.......

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 08:00 PM

Do you consider Stan Rogers' material tedious? What of the Child ballads? Good songs are not dependent upon length but upon quality. A one verse piece can be delightful or preachy. I depends upon content and presentation.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 08:34 PM

Most of the longer songs are ballads, telling a story: if you can keep focussed on the story, then they can work, especially if the singer injects some life and expression, eve body language, facial expression, dynamics, light and shade, into the song.
However, if sung in a monotone to (sadly often) a fairly non-descript tune, it is easy to lose the plot and/or fall asleep!
And the joiny-in lines can be a double-edged sword: e.g. everyone waiting to sing "down by the greenwoodsidey-o" and forgetting what the story of the song is.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:04 AM

When I was 18 with my whole life ahead of me
I had time and patience to sit through extremely long foreign art house movies,
without needing a single toilet break...

Now I'm soon to be 60, with far fewer unknown limited number of years left,
I need on average two toilet breaks per shorter 90 minute movie...

Long movies have become something of an endurance test,
which I've become disinclined to commit to watching..
and there's no guarantee I'll stay awake through even a short loud frenetic paced action movie...

So, I'd think a fair compromise for senior audiences would be to take long ballads and speed the BPM tempo up significantly..
just to be on the safe side...

Similarly, if I make it over 70, I'd resist the temptation to start watching new TV series
that run to more than 20 episodes per season,
with potential for being renewed year after year...

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:08 AM

In short, speed 'em up, and keep a metronome on stage...!!!

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:32 AM

Speed up the BTM tempo? That will just make you frantic and degrade the experience.

The Cliff Notes approach will boil the story down to its essentials. I seem to remember Richard Thompson doing it with Hamlet. Three minutes is a long time.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:33 AM

Have a listen to some of Martin Carthy's stuff. He injects life into the longest ballads, in my opinion. Other traditional song singers are available :-)

I concur with the comments above. It is as much the presentation as the material.

DtG

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:55 AM

Frankie Armstrong could sing a half-hour ballad, and I'd be spellbound. Same with Judy Cook, or Art Thieme, or a number of others who know that to sing a long song properly, you have to be a storyteller. They lasso you in, and hold you in thrall for as long as they like - and then you beg for more.
If a long song is boring, it's the singer's fault. Well, it could be the song's fault, but then the singer should not have chosen that song.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:12 AM

Some years back I mentioned that while I generally love long ballads and songs I find "The Prickly Bush/Hangman Stay Your Hand" a boring song because it is essentially the same verse over and over and over. Someone replied that they had sung it at a school and all the children were enthralled and on tenterhooks wondering how the story would turn out.

See? As has been said above, it is a complicated mix of personal taste, the skill of the singer and the audience, familiarity and unfamiliarity, and many other more subtle effects. The actual length of it is one of the less important factors.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:39 AM

This quote from John Cage seems apposite... 'If something is boring after two minutes, try it for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen. Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it is not boring at all.'

I always appreciated his argument that if people claimed to find his music boring, it wasn't because of the music itself, rather that those people had simply found a way to be bored.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:56 AM

"If you're conscious of the length of a traditional song, the singer has failed."
Says everything to me
A three verse song badly sung is is two verse too long - boring
The longest ballad you can name, well sung is not long enough - riveting
Our literary classics - Dickens - Hardy, Mrs Gaskell - boring?
not to me - I enjoyed reading all of them and was sorry when they ended.
Walter Pardon once summed up the length of songs in his inimitable brilliant "simple countryman" (as a folkie one described him) way
Talking about his version of Van Dieman's land, he said, "It's a long old song, but it was a long old journey" - a perfect description of a good singer at ease with his art
Those who judge songs by their length need to ask if the problem doesn't lie with them rather than the songs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Acorn4
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:50 AM

Anachie Gordon in the right hands can be spellbinding.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 04:12 AM

I know I am in a minority here, but I find a story boring if I already know the outcome. So yes, I often find folksingers who consider themselves storytellers boring. What makes the folk song interesting to me is the musical arrangement.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 04:15 AM

attention span is declining. Blame the internet.

But like all song, it depends on the delivery. A comic song can keep your attention with jokes along the way and the payoff being the best.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 05:31 AM

like Frank Carson used to say - its the way you tell 'em!

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 05:42 AM

"attention span is declining. Blame the internet."
I agree totally
Unfortunately our folk songs are narratives with tunes so if you find them boring they are not for you
Musically, their four or eight line (at most) structure is difficult to take after a couple of hearings unless you vary it racially - doing so draws the attention away from the narrative and it loses it raison d'être and becomes something else (fine if you prefer that "something else")
Kerry Traveller, Mikeen McCarthy told us, "Make a song or story work for yourself and others will like it as well"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 06:45 AM

Yes, Jim, I think many of the story-ballads work well precisely because they are carried by simple tunes that don't distract from the narrative.

If anything, it's over-arranged songs that get me fidgety - you know the kind of thing: an eight-bar musical introduction, a four-bar musical break between verses, a 16-bar noodly bit in the middle, and the last line developed into a climactic eight-bar ending. The whole song can take twice as long as it otherwise might. Unless it's really well done, this kind of thing can seem self-indulgent, and have me looking at my watch and the empty glass in front of me.

(You did mean "radically" and not "racially", didn't you? Predictive text strikes again!)

Marje

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 08:12 AM

So Nic Jones' arrangement of Canadee-i-o, which I think has a 16 bar introduction, is that self-indulgent?

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Johnny J
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 08:42 AM

Depends on the song and singer.

Even a good song can sound boring in the wrong hands(or should I say voice?). Particularly so in large singarounds where the singers realise that they may only get one or two songs at the most. So, it's a case of "I'm only getting one song, so I'll make the bloody most of it" attitude.
:-((

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 09:07 AM

MCs/comperes of clubs will recognise the occasional phenomenon of the floor singer who, when told it's one number per performer and that time is short, will either (a) say, "Oh, could I do two very short ones?" or (b) ignores the time constraint and sings an inordinately long song. The two short ones, inevitably, are not short. Such people concentrate only on their own needs and ignore the feel of the whole evening.

My action, when that happens, has been to exclude them from future floor spots - which is actually less drastic than some MCs I've heard in years gone by, who shouted out something like "Get a move on!" in the middle of a number!

There's absolutely nothing wrong with performing a long ballad, but context and ability are everything.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 09:25 AM

"which I think has a 16 bar introduction, is that self-indulgent? "
Yup
Unless accompaniment accompanies it is intrusive - in my opinion this includes most of Nic Jones singing (but he's not the only one by any means)
"racially"
Most certanly mend radically

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Elmore
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 11:23 AM

Never found Elizabeth Laprelle, Eric Bogle or the late Eva Cassidy boring.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Acorn4
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 11:29 AM

With apologies to Pete Morton although I have actually showed him this:-

Another Verse

If the beginning was now, you’d have made the break,
But you managed to miss your chance, that was your big mistake,
And now you’re stuck here bursting for the loo,
When you heard those words “Child Ballad” it should have been your cue

But there’s another verse, there always is,
Tho’ you’re desperate for a leak we could still be here next week,
Another verse there always is, maybe the next one’s the last,
But hope is fading fast, yet another verse.

You hope it’s done , but there’s no such thing,
You’re in the grip of Musgrave, Lord Bateman or Tam Lin,
Squinting at their ipad, they bumble through the words
How you regret your mistake of not escaping while you could.

But there’s another verse, there always is,

You try crossing your legs, try to hold on
Imagine a parallel universe where the ballads are not long,
Now they’ve lost their place , as it staggers on;
There should be something like a driving test
To sing this sort of song.

But there’s another verse, there always is,

Though we like to show respect, pretend to be enthralled
We all know who will be to blame for hat puddle on the floor
When you heard “Child Ballad” I imagined that
You’d be listening to Bob the Builder, Firemen Sam or Postman Pat

But there’s another verse, there always is,
Add
But you won’t get to the loo as we’re not yet halfway through another verse.
.and on a minute wait, I’ve just seen the fire escape..


(I think something akin to a driving test is the answer)

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 11:34 AM

I've heard live performances, and seen Youtube videos, where the musical noodling at the start or in the middle goes on for something like a minute without a word being sung. I find myself saying (very quietly to myself if it's a live performance) "Get on with it". A song consists of words and tune. Neither should eclipse the other.

A ballad takes as long as it takes, but any musical breaks making it even longer should be avoided entirely or, at most, applied in moderation at points where there is a natural break in the narrative.

As for the length of the song itself, I agree with most of the comments above.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:00 PM

If you look at the folk traditions of Eastern and Southern Europe, music and dance play a more important role relative to lyrics, than in British and Irish tradition. And even in British and Irish tradition it varies.

Jim, I thoroughly disagree with you, though I concede that it is only that our tastes differ. Nic Jones produced many original arrangements, Canadee-i-o is one of the best. Original arrangement, superb guitar playing, and a sensitive setting of a traditional song.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:02 PM

Excellent Acorn4!

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:20 PM

I was hoping to avoid taste
To me, the main job of a singer is to communicate a narrative - very singer we have ever recorded has told us that the story is more important than the tune - I accept that totally
We have a long talk on accompaniment given by Peggy Seeger way back in 1969
Her words still ring in my ears - "The first thing you ask yourself about accompaniment is, is it necessary?" - not a bad statement from a musician with her skills
As impressive as much of the Nic Jones, Martin Carthy school of accompaniment may be, I find it isn't.
The acid test for me is when you find yourself listening to the tune rather than the words and then having to run to catch up with the plot
Our song song structure is so tight (especially the ballads) is that if you miss even a couple of words, you've lost the plot altogether
I found clever-clever accompaniments very entertaining way back when, now I just find them intrusive

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:29 PM

One of the reasons I tend to prefer European Folk to 'ours'..
is for me they have a better sense of musicality in both instrumentation and voice..
and it doesn't matter if the words are shite because I don't understand them...

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:09 PM

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: David Carter (UK) - PM
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 08:12 AM

So Nic Jones' arrangement of Canadee-i-o, which I think has a 16 bar introduction, is that self-indulgent?"
it might be self indulgent but it happens to be a very good bit of music, it is an introduction so imo it does not interfere with the story l;ine if iot was half way through the song it might

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Andy7
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 07:32 PM

"I found clever-clever accompaniments very entertaining way back when, now I just find them intrusive"

Yes, I do agree that 'clever' instrumentation can, on occasion, detract from the content of the song; especially if the performer seems to be giving more attention to the intricate fingerwork on their instrument than to the words, the story and the emotions in the song that they're performing.

It's such a delicate balance, though! Skilful playing, on whichever instrument is being used as accompaniment, can also really support and enhance a song.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 07:45 PM

It has been a while since I listened to Nic Jones's Canadee I.O. - I'd forgotten why I disliked it
I've made a point of listening to as many of our our older singers as possible over the years - you might say I've made a study of it.
Even the oldest of most pat their prime them, with all the problems that age brings, had a narrative grasp of their songs in common - in the West of Ireland they referred to "telling a song" rather than "singing" it.
Most of them sang in their natural speaking tones, as if they were telling a story.
They sang as they spoke, putting in the commas and full stops where they belonged, and usually, they chose a speed that suited the narrative (dragging our a song too slowly is probably the greatest contribution to the idea that long songs are boring - the narrative of as song should be the decider of the speed it is sung)
Listening to Nic Jones again brought back all the memories of self-indulgence and lack of of any interpretation that related to the contents of the song - a pleasant blandness and total lack of emotional tension.
Jones follows the accompaniment rather than making it a canvas on which to paint your song
You could go to downstairs for a pint and a pee in the time his musical runs take - at least a quarter of the whole song - ridiculous!
Instead of running lines together where the plot calls for it, he leaves gaps in the action - he almost makes it an eight line poetic structure rather than a four like one - one word strikes me in listening to his singing - "gappy"
I am not against accompaniment by any means - when I was singing regularly well over half of my large repertoire was accompanied (by a friend)
When I lost my accompanist (through moving) I abandoned many of my songs - no problem, my interest in collecting and research didn't leave me the time I once had
Now I've started to sing again I find that, while I miss accompaniment for some songs, it is not essential
I have revived around two thirds of my 300 + songs nd so far I have not found one I can't sing unaccompanied - English language folk songs are like that
While I've lost much of my singing "edge" (what I had of it), I can't remember enjoying singing as much as I am doing now - but there again - I'm a sucker for a good story
Peggy Seeger again on accompaniment: "The sure sign that accompaniment is doing its job with an audience is when they only hear it when it stops or it goes wrong"
Sorry - didn't mean to go on for so long but I'm off to Galway for a few days tomorrow to pig out on films that never make it to this part of the world
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 02:19 AM

"I have revived around two thirds of my 300 + songs nd so far I have not found one I can't sing unaccompanied - English language folk songs are like that"

Not just folksongs. Most English people know the tunes of about half The Beatles and Elvis Presley's body of work.
Re- songs with a narrative. Similarly most people of my generation could tell you the story of Marty Robbins El Paso, Mickey Newbury's In the Ghetto, Kenny Roger's Lucille, Bernard Cribbin's Hole in the Ground.

I doubt if the layman would remember a single detail of the accompaniment.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:09 AM

Its odd that Peggy Seeger should say that, as on some of her recordings the accompaniment provided by her sons is absolutely crucial to the emotional impact of the song.

Jim and I clearly are listening for different things. Mikeen McCarthy, mentioned above, I could only find one of his songs freely available on youtube, which was The Herring. It was just a bit over 4 minutes and I really found it very hard going. Very repetitive. And also very difficult to make out the words. Canadee-i-o is two minutes longer, and you don't want it to end.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:16 AM

I partly agree with Jim Carroll,I do not find Nic Jones a good interpretative singer, however he does have a good voice which is pleasant to listen to but Canadeeio and many of his guitar arrangement are spell binding and worth listening to as instrumental music much as a music afficianado might listen to classical music or jazz, he was a phenomenal insturmentalist.
next point,imo there are some traditonal singers who also are not good singers, either there voice was knackered or thsy had no idea about interpretation and sang in a dead pan way.
Ewan MacColl imo was not any better singer than Nic Jones, but for different reasons his approach was theatrical not natural he lacked any spontaneity.
a matter of taste, but neither MacColl or Jones would be singers that inspire me, however I could listen to Jones purely for his instrumentasl ability and to MacColl for the high quality of his songwriting

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:23 AM

so my point above was , that people listen to music or songs for different reasons some listen for the singing interpretation some listen [as i might listen to classical or jazz] for good instrumental playing for some its poetry for some its words for others its the musicality of the voice for others its for instrumental virtosity, for others instrumental sensitivity and for some allof the above qualities

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:31 AM

on the subject of Peggy Seeger and accompaniment, yes, very true , however some of peggys accompaniments from way back are not good, listen to a couple of the tracks accompanying ALLloyd on his australian songs, the recording that has drovers dream as one of the tracks ,there is one track that has a couple of banjo accompaniments that are a destraction from the song and at the same time do not have the virtue of NicJones in that they are not good instrumental peices, they are just bizarre

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:32 AM

"Make a song or story work for yourself and others will like it as well"

Hmmmm. As one musical wife of a musical duo said to me "He's taken up the banjo, and you know people fall in love with a new instrument"

And I have heard that in someone singing a song they have just discovered and they clearly have fallen in love with it.

It is the way you tell 'em.

Frank also added I Tell 'em Better

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:35 AM

I think it's much the same with many (most?) new performers. They have one or two really good songs, and often quite beautiful voices, but their vocal and musical style lack the breadth to be entertaining for a 90min show without it quickly becoming tedious.

It's too easy to produce a CD these days - essentially vanity publishing comes to music. The odd decent song on them gets picked up by the likes of Folk Radio UK and you think "that's good". But, when you try listening to the performer for 70mins . . . . . ????

I don't think it's attention spans that are getting shorter. I believe it's the quantity of mediocre shite we're bombarded with.

Of course people switch off.

In every field of human endeavour, genuine talent is a very scarce commodity.

Bob

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:40 AM

"The acid test for me is when you find yourself listening to the tune rather than the words and then having to run to catch up with the plot" jim carroll.
yes, fair point, but much worse is when you are distracted by bizarre accompaniment that appears to have no instrumental virtue[ on its own] and is reminscent of an annoying insect that should have been hit with a fly swotter and put out of its misery, as are two of Seegers banjo accompaniments on Lloyds Australian songs cd.[ THE CD is the one that has tracks such as drovers dream and bluey brink, although i seem to remember that the worst track might have been the very first track on the cd.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:58 AM

"however some of peggys accompaniments from way back are not good, "
Of course they are not - Peggy has said so herself
Ewan told us once in an interview that he couldn't bear to listen to recordings he made in the early days
I hope nobody ever judges me on what I was doing and what I knew fifty or sixty years ago
It needs to be remembered that We are talking about English/British songs - the American tradition after the 20s/30s became far more instrumentally based
There are two distinct traditional approached in the US - go listen to the Harry Smith collection and compare it to the Dillard Chandler/Texas Gladden type of interpretation
Personally, I love both as a listener - but an I said, I don't want to discuss taste - each to his/her own
I've tried to lay out my interpretation of how the older singers approached their song - we have loads of interviews with some of them talking about this - especially Walter Pardon
The Traveller I mentioned, Mikeen McCarthy, had his father's songs printed on ballad-sheets and sold the around the fairs and markets in rural Kerry in the forties and fifties
He didvided the singing he grew up with into three distinct parts for ballad selling, pub singing ans fireside singing - three different styles for three different situations
You can hear the street style of singing (with accompaniment) in the recordings of Davy Stewart chalk and cheese compared to, say The Stewart's or Jeannie Roberson
Our old singers sang unaccompanied - Walter Pardon playd the fiddle and malodeon, yet he never considered it necessary to accompany his songs - neither did Harry Cox
We recorded songs in Ireland from some very fine fiddle and concertina players yet none of them used their instrumental skills to accompany their songs
Accompanied singing in England, Scotland and Ireland is a revival addition, unlike many Europe traditions - not a criticism, just an observation
Must go - Galway calls
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:25 AM

imo if anyone is interested in listening to traditional singers they should listen to phil tanner and joseph taylor.
Jim",Accompanied singing in England, Scotland and Ireland is a revival addition."
no, not entirely correct again, more correct to say big majority, examples can be found to prove your statement incorrect, why do you always exagerrate your points

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:32 AM

yet Jim choose to criticise nic jomes accompaniments, from pre 1982
36 years ago, you choose to judge Nic on materialfrom over 36 years ago yet do not want yourself or peggy to be judged on material from way back, why dont you cop on, one rule for PEGGY AND EWAN AND YOURSELF BUT ANOTHER RULE FOR Nic Jones

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Rigby
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:10 AM

"Accompanied singing in England, Scotland and Ireland is a revival addition, unlike many Europe traditions - not a criticism, just an observation"

That's a moot point, isn't it. We can argue about the proportions (and I'm sure Jim will), but quite a large number of songs in the English tradition are known to have originated in the pleasure gardens, in the music halls, in parlour song, maybe also in West Gallery music -- all contexts where they would presumably have been accompanied. So yes perhaps losing the accompaniment was part of the process that turned them into folk songs, but it's not like there is something sacrosanct or particularly ancient about their being sung unaccompanied.

I think Nic Jones is a bit of a special case in that both his melodies and his arrangements often have only very tenuous links to anything collected from traditional singers. As far as I can tell, for instance, his tunes for Annachie Gordon and Clyde Water are pretty much his own, and although I guess he must have got Canadee I-O originally from Harry Upton, Upton's tune is barely recognisable in the Jones version.

For the most part I think what he did was very effective, and he was very good at putting across the narrative and drama of a long ballad, but he used the tradition as a resource for developing his own style and material, not as an end in itself.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Johnny J
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:15 AM

I'm afraid to say that it was the guitar accompaniment and other musical arrangements which first attracted me to Nic Jones' music and that of a few other artists of the time... e.g. Dick Gaughan, June Tabor and Martin Simpson. Also with groups such as Steeleye, Fairports etc, the instrumental side of things was very important.

As a result, I actually became aware of many great songs and ballads which I may never have listened to otherwise. Of course, the more interested I became in the music over the years, I became aware of some great unaccompanied singers past and present and also developed an ear for purely vocal renditions.

Both unaccompanied song and songs with instrumental backing and arrangements are acceptable in my opinion. However, there is obviously potential for good and bad with both.

As far as musical arrangements are concerned, I prefer if they don't detract too much from the song itself. Sometimes things can get "too busy" or the style of music may not be to my taste. The length of an introduction and/or breaks aren't necessarily an issue. It all depends but as long as I'm able to focus on the song itself that's fine.

These days, some of the younger musicians tend to include some over clever musical arrangements...just because they can , it seems to me. On the other hand, others are still capable of producing very sensitive and sympathetic musical backing.
I suppose it's all a matter of personal preference.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:32 AM

" but quite a large number of songs in the English tradition are known to have originated in the pleasure gardens,"
You're right I would argue this (nobody knows where they originated), but that's beside the point
Our traditional singers chose not to accompany them and I believe for the readon we are discussing here
"Jim choose to criticise nic jomes accompaniments, from pre 1982"
Because they are the ones that have been put up as good - I believe they are not
Peggy and Ewan cme to terms with they youthful limitations - the intrusive over-accompaniment remains a feature of modern revival singing
abd during the "Electric folk" era turned our songs into musical soup
I don't wish to make this a Nic ones/Ewan MacColl pissing contest - everyone is entitled to their own tastes
I start from my approach to the songs not the singers - The Liverpool Spinners were my introduction to folk songs, for which I will remain eternally grateful - but I would never in a thousand years wish to sing like them
I love MacColl's singing because he interpreted each song and treated each one as an individual piece
My wife Pat told me her experience of bringing a workmate home and playing a MacColl album to here
The response was, "Interesting - which one as he?"
Didn't want to open a can of worms I wasn't gong to follow through - damn - always happens
Hopefully this will still be going on Thursday
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:01 AM

Must apologise for the persistent typos - a combination of typing too fast and an idiosyncratic keyboard with sound transcribing control facilities I am reluctant to relinquish until I can find a suitable replacement
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:42 AM

Yes I liked MacColl's singing for that reason. It reminded me of Michael Pennington's Richard II - each word was rather terrific.

I often thought the world had missed out on a great Macbeth.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:47 AM

MacColl's acting influence centered around the Stanislavski approach - very different and far more personally drawn
Bye all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:48 AM

Or as the say in the Liverpool elocution exercise "Tarra Theresa, see you Thursday"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:51 AM

Might I politely suggest two remedies, Jim?

1] Purchase a less "idiosyncratic" keyboard. Mine is a Packard Bell and it has the virtue of always recognising the keys that I press correctly. I have just seen one identical to mine on eBay. It was for sale 'buy it now' for £4 plus £2 postage. It would be money well spent. In my experience there are keyboards that make inconsistent mistakes. My old work laptop was an offender. I tried to have it replaced but the powers that be refused - so I gave up using it. This was more inconvenient to others than to me so eventually (and reluctantly) the authorities replaced it.

2] One problem with Mudcat, compared with, let's say, Facebook is that once you have pressed that 'Submit Message' button, that is it. You cannot go back and edit or correct what you have typed. That makes it imperative that we all should check very carefully before submitting. It is always wise to read what you have written by checking the preview box before submitting. Personally, I find every typo that I have missed to be galling even though the context usually means that the meaning can still be understood.

I have just checked this posting by first creating a preview. I am glad that I did. There were three small typos in it! How would I have felt playing Lord High Mighty (as I am) and then found that I was myself making errors?

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:57 AM

...and bringing myself back to the subject, I agree with those who say that it is not the length of a song that leads to boredom, it is the quality of the interpretation and the relevance to the situation that the singer(s) bring to it.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Mr Red at library
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 07:26 AM

(PP to video again)

As (touches forelock) Martin Carthy MBE is apt to say

You can do anything to a Folk Song, anything at all, and it will survive. Except ignore it!

So be it boring, but not silent............


runs and ducks for cover

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 07:41 AM

As long as the performer is singing the song from memory, and not reading it off a sheet of paper or an ipad, the song can be as long as it takes, IMO.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:22 AM

"Jim choose to criticise nic jomes accompaniments, from pre 1982"
Because they are the ones that have been put up as good - I believe they are not"
one rule for Peggy but a different rule for Nic Jones, well Jim, I believe Peggys accompaniment on two tracks was not good, and furthermore unlike Nic Jones introduction to Canadio, was not even interesting music.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:43 AM

I'll just say it's a very good job electricity was harnessed for the benefit of mankind.
and affordable entry level electric guitars, keyboards, and amps have never been better quality...

"Our traditional singers chose not to accompany them "

..of course, if cheap good electric guitars for the masses had be invented a century earlier...????

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:52 AM

Not if they are performed well, that the performer is able to invoke the imagary of the song.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 09:16 AM

btw.. we will note there were no folk singers performing at the televised BBC Queen's 92nd birthday concert...

By Royal Decree...?????

Highlight of the concert was a joyful mass proletarian ensemble performing "When I'm cleaning windows"...

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 09:45 AM

Wasn't Sting at Liz's 92nd?

He is sort of folky.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Pfr on mobile phone on the bog
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 10:12 AM

Nahh.. it was rediscovered reggae sting on this occasion...

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Andy7
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 01:31 PM

If you want a great example of crass musical accompaniment, try Jim Reeves's 'Distant Drums'.

Not only does the orchestration dominate the song, we also have to be treated to the sound of a drum in the 'drums' verse, and the sound of a bugle (or some other brass instrument) in the 'bugles' verse ... just in case we couldn't understand the words?

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 01:42 PM

"... Bernard Cribbin's Hole in the Ground.... I doubt if the layman would remember a single detail of the accompaniment.

Big Al - I intended posting this earlier but got distracted by a bacon buttie and chips...

Folks might be surprised just how inventive and sophisticated the backing tracks for vintage EMI [Abbey Road...???] comedy novelty songs can be...

I think they reward investigation and close listening, and are a significant influence on later Beatles recordings...???

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 02:17 PM

A great example of non intrusive accompaniment

Bob Knight Tramps and hawkers

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 02:30 PM

Kenny - interesting comparing it to the next youtube suggested playlist version...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rACb4q4Rxz0


I know which I prefer, and why... but both are very valid and listenable...

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:26 PM

yes, pfr , very interesting, the second is well sung too but a little fast and rigid,, however the guitarist is very competent and good but someho he impose a rythym on the song when IMO IT SHOULD BE SLOWER MORE RELAXED AND FREER,

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:35 PM

HERE IS ABETTER SUNG VERSION BY ARTHUR JOHNSTONE WITH GUITAR,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy36JzBl77ghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy36JzBl77g">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy36JzBl77g BOB KINGHTS VERSION AND ARTHUR JOHNSTONES ARE IMO SUNG BETTER, a matter of taste. ewan mclennans has the potential to be better , great guitar playing but he sounds as if [unlike arthur johnstone]he is following his guitar

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:41 AM

and are a significant influence on later Beatles recordings

that would be George Martin's influence on both eras of course.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 12:18 PM

Boring? Judge for yourself...

World's Longest Song
   (Tim Wallace, Lorain, Ohio)
    (passed away 2015)

There are some recordings of him on YouTube, but not this one)



This is the ballad of the world's longest song
Nobody can sing it because it's so long.
No one can remember how all of it goes,
So I'll just sing the first hundred verses or so.

The context is boring- it's not very deep,
And all those who hear it may soon fall asleep.
And all those who stay conscious are sure to be bored,
And all those who don't will be poked if they snore.

The melody starts here, and then it goes _low.
The next line is ^{higher, and winds up like so}.
The third line is similar, but not quite the same,
And the fourth line is just like the third line again.

It's dull and redundant, and it repeats itself,
And it's dull and redundant and it repeats itself.
It just says the same thing all over, and then
It just says the same thing all over again.

It was handed down from my great-grandfather's time.
My grandfather sang it, but he couldn't get it right.
My father added more words, but he couldn't quite get them all to fit....
Then he gave it to me, and now I'm stuck with it.

Now I'm working on it, but I'm pretty dense.
I just haven't got any rhythmical sense,
And when I pass away, it will go to my son,
Which may prove to be hard, since I haven't got one.

Nobody can sing it, though many have tried.
One fellow swore that he could, but he lied.
When four hundred eighty-ninth verse came around,
He got queasy and shaky and had to lie down.

But the once was a fellow who really could sing.
He quite nearly finished the whole bloody thing.
When he came to the last verse, he swelled up with pride,
Stammered and choked and exploded and died.

There's one verse in here that I can't quite recall.
There's one line I just can't remember at all
-----------------------------------------------------------
And part of another that I ---------------------

Now somebody said that this song is all fluff-
I should put in some socially redeeming stuff....
Some truth and high consciousness. I said,"Gee whiz
That'll make it more boring than it already is!"

Now just to be fair and put everything right,
I hummed the one verse that wasn't polite.
It was crude and profane and contained dirty words.
It was the ------ that I ever heard!

Well, the time has now come as in every dumb song,
When we all are cajoled into singing along.
But learning the chorus should not prove a chore,
'Cause it's all parts of songs you've all heard before:

REPEAT AFTER ME

Toori-li, oori-li, oori-li-aye
Toori-li, oori-li, oori-li-aye
Hey diddle diddle the dilly dally day
Hey diddle diddle the dilly dally day
Hickory, dickory fiddle lee aye oh
   Hickory, dickory fiddle lee aye oh
Chug chug, toot toot, clank clnk clank e-i-o
   Chug chug, toot toot, clank clnk clank e-i-o

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 12:38 PM

"one rule for Peggy but a different rule for Nic Jones"
Read what I wrote Dick and stop making it up

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 12:52 PM

PFR
I think it depends on your age group and whether you play accompaniment in relation to which style you prefer, probably also on which version you heard first. I'm open to other suggestions of what influences what we like.
I have been humourously berated for singing Abdul Abul bul Amir and We Never Mention Aunt Claram in an "acoustic" sessions while being complemented at a "trad?" session. I try to connect with an audience's nostalgia by playing songs they havnt heard for years.
Its a great feeling when at the end of a song your see a big smile and " I havnt heard that for years it was my xxxx favorite song"

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 12:57 PM

As a guitar player, I'm not too keen on clever dick show off guitar playing in folk..
I definitely prefers my monotonous minimalist hypnotic reed drones...

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 01:37 PM

Jim, you wrote
Listening to Nic Jones again brought back all the memories of self-indulgence and lack of of any interpretation that related to the contents of the song - a pleasant blandness and total lack of emotional tension.
Jones follows the accompaniment rather than making it a canvas on which to paint your song
You could go to downstairs for a pint and a pee in the time his musical runs take - at least a quarter of the whole song - ridiculous!
Instead of running lines together where the plot calls for it, he leaves gaps in the action - he almost makes it an eight line poetic structure rather than a four like one - one word strikes me in listening to his singing - "gappy"
I am not against accompaniment by any means - when I was singing regularly well over half of my large repertoire was accompanied"
       so you are judging him on material from 36 years ago, yet you say peggys bad accompaniment is excusable because it was 36 plus years ago.
I repeat one rule for peggy another for nic jones

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 01:55 PM

Jim's comments get more bizarre when you read them again. "Our traditional singers" sing without accompaniment? There is a whole strand of Scottish and Irish tradition which is purely instrumental, and another in which singing is accompanied by various instruments, notably fiddle, but also guitar and various keyboard instruments. Traditional singing doesn't begin and end with Joseph Taylor and Walter Pardon. There are traditional melodies which are clearly hundreds of years old. In some cases the melody is something to fit a lyric around, rather than vice versa.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 02:45 PM

"Our traditional singers" sing without accompaniment?"

..but what if their poor hard working for a pittance manual labouring forefathers
could have afforded decent musical instruments...???

..then there's another consideration...

"...has that prim starched song collecting fella from the city buggered off yet..
right then.. get out the banjos, sax, and drum kit for a proper knees up...!!!"

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:00 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWylhRo3UJY">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWylhRo3UJY, THIS IS WHAT I CALL MAGNIFICENT SINGING, SUCH POISE COMMAND AND BEAUTY

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:26 PM

Sandman   Mary Barry - the Flower of Sweet Strabane

plus a good selection with and without accompaniment

"THIS IS WHAT I CALL MAGNIFICENT SINGING, SUCH POISE COMMAND AND BEAUTY" wholeheartedly agree

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:45 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWylhRo3UJY

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 09:04 AM

"I repeat one rule for peggy another for nic jones"
I specified what I thought of Nic Jones singing in detail
If you can't e bothered responding to what to actually said, we have nothing to say to each other Dick
Jones represent's a style of performance which leaves no room for interpretation - his singing of narrative songs is in fact non-narrative
That's what I said and that's what I meant
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 09:16 AM

Curious how folk clubs would respond to deaf folkies performing long ballads in sign language..
Or performing arts students presenting long ballads as interpretive dance and mime...????

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 10:06 AM

Or alternatively performing Grieg's Piano Concerto in A minor on the spoons.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 12:44 PM

At a song swap at a music camp there was a guy who sang every freakin' verse of "A la claire fountain" in French. It was excruciating.