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BS: Israel's Sharpville
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 15 May 18 - 10:46 AM PFR, You seem to think that "musician, artist, or writer" MUST be left wing: YOU may choose only to look at AArt from one side, but most reasonable people look at the ART and judge it on it's merits, rather than on the political bent of the Artist. Was Homer left wing? Was Shakespeare? How about Keats? I'm sure glad I'm not a humanist musician, artist, or writer enduring life under ANY of the current Arab regimes... NOW ANSWER THE QUESTION: "called for peace from both sides," For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose).(- RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;JC's, Acme's, and Mr Shaw's preference) For the Palestinians, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. (- RESULT - NOBODY HURT ;My preference) So WHICH side has control of "peace"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 15 May 18 - 10:45 AM bob - so you'll be first in line to hand Canada back to it's rightful occupants...?????? Oh yes that's right - 60 shot to death yesterday.. and all you are capable of is cheap jibes at anyone who doen't revel in it... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 15 May 18 - 10:39 AM BTW, I can't help but savour the tasty irony from someone who maintains the hoary, anti-Semitic trope that Israel stole the land of the Palestinians when that person lives on land stolen from the Mexicans. Irony can be sweet, hypocrisy not so much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 15 May 18 - 10:39 AM YOU are clearly hysterical [ at least on the evidence of these most recent posts ].. and most probably not the ideal type of personality who should be included in any peace talks, which stand a hope of reasonable success... Life in England might not be ideal, but I'm sure glad I'm not a humanist musician, artist, or writer enduring life under the current right wing Israeli regime... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 15 May 18 - 10:34 AM PFR, "might be a more sensible and rational debater than" You mean, by using the same tactics as JC I have proven otherwise? Take a look at what you are saying, and get back to me... And ANSWER THE QUESTION: "called for peace from both sides," For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose).(- RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;JC's, Acme's, and Mr Shaw's preference) For the Palestinians, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. (- RESULT - NOBODY HURT ;My preference) So WHICH side has control of "peace"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 15 May 18 - 10:27 AM PFR, Someone (YOU) posted "You either really takes sides because of passionate belief in a side, or you behave responsibly and remain neutral and objective.. " So either "behave responsibly and remain neutral and objective", or continue to "takes sides because of passionate belief in a side" But you can still answer the question: For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose). For the Palestinian, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. So WHICH side has control of "peace"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 15 May 18 - 10:19 AM Bruce - That's disappointing... I was hoping from our recent acquaintance that you might be a more sensible and rational debater than K & bob; which is why I adopted a default position of polite respect towards you, refraining from the disdain that they so rightly deserve... oh well.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 15 May 18 - 10:15 AM Mr Shaw, Yes, I did notice a number of your kind. Take Acme with you when you leave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 May 18 - 10:10 AM Pull out, pfr. This thread is becoming overrun by rats. Let them talk to themselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 15 May 18 - 10:00 AM PFR, "and called for peace from both sides," Let us look at what THIS would entail: For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose) For the the Palestinian, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. So WHICH side has control of "peace"? I ask a question- "WHICH side has control of "peace"?" WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER? Pick one, and stop being a shill for the Fascist supporting JC, who BY HIS OWN STANDARDS supports the Irish support of the Nazis in WWII- HE NEVER WOULD ADMIT IT, when presented with documented facts, NOR APOLOGIZE AND CONDEMN it. Since HE uses that standard on the rest of us, it applies IN SPADES to him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 15 May 18 - 09:56 AM To add to what Bruce posted; President Obama went further than Trump in his declaration that Jerusalem not only remain the capital of Israel, but that it remain undivided. Trump left the status of East Jerusalem open to negotiation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 15 May 18 - 09:50 AM Bruce - take that up with the British House of Commons... who were today debating the ultra lethal calibre of the shoot to kill and maim bullets, and calling for an enquiry... On our British news yesterday, I saw a long processional march of right wing zealot Jewish thugs goading Arab residents on the doorsteps of their own homes in an old narrow street... [presumably in Jerusalem...???} To British eyes they looked every bit like a hateful tribal gang of EDL and N.Irish Protestant marchers.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 15 May 18 - 09:34 AM PFR, "and called for peace from both sides," Let us look at what THIS would entail: For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose) For the the Palestinian, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. So WHICH side has control of "peace"? As for the Trump connection, the ONLY reason that the capital of Israel ( which HAS been in Jerusalem since 1950) is NOT recognized by other nations was the 1947 partition plan, refused by the Arabs. It placed that city in a special status. This meant that the Palestinian plan to have a capital in Jerusalem COULD NOT BE CONSIDERED as long as the Israeli capital there was not recognized. NOW, the point CAN be brought up and negotiated - ONLY because Trump carried through on this. "The United States opened an embassy to Jerusalem today at the order of President Trump, who finally fulfilled a promise former presidents made for decades. “We will move the American embassy to the eternal capital of the Jewish people, Jerusalem,” Trump said. “Therefore, I have determined that it is time to officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. While previous presidents have made this a major campaign promise they failed to deliver. Today I am delivering.” President Bill Clinton said in 1992 that Jerusalem is Israel’s capital, despite the U.S. embassy being in Tel Aviv. “Jerusalem is still the capital of Israel and must remain an undivided city accessible to all,” he said. George W. Bush promised 18 years ago, “As soon as I take office I will begin the process of moving the U.S. ambassador to the city Israel has chosen as its capital.” “I continue to say that Jerusalem will be the capital of Israel, and I have said that before, and I will say it again,” President Barack Obama said at an AIPAC conference. “And Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.”" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 15 May 18 - 09:32 AM DtG - Having a justified go at our resident befuddled 'religious right' buffon gets my brain warmed up while I'm waking to a new day, and waiting for the strong black tea to kick in... ... bit like 20 sit ups and push ups for the old grey matter... He also comes in handy for amusement & distraction when my bowels are playing up later in the day... He's cheaper than a prescription... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 15 May 18 - 09:31 AM I understand, it's difficult to dispute factual evidence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Stilly River Sage Date: 15 May 18 - 09:27 AM Nope, I'm not biting. There is no discussing this with you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 15 May 18 - 09:25 AM They don't crave the deaths of Israelis Read the Charter of Hamas. they crave the return of their land. Which land would that be? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 15 May 18 - 09:22 AM And to make matters even worse - Trump threw a match into Jerusalem with no plan to put out the fire |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Stilly River Sage Date: 15 May 18 - 08:58 AM Bull. Shit. You're such an apologist for the misbehavior of Israel. They don't crave the deaths of Israelis, they crave the return of their land. Period. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 15 May 18 - 08:55 AM The actions at the border are being taken to prevent a massacre. Truth is, in the eyes of the world, the only acceptable Israeli action is to allow the Hamas demonstration to breach the border. To let them reach an Israeli town. To have them slaughter Jewish civilians. Then we'd have their sympathy and the headlines would be kinder. No thanks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 15 May 18 - 08:47 AM Learn from those of us who have had years of experience of this, PFR. Just don't engage him. He will 'win' at any cost, including his own self respect and the sanity of all around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 15 May 18 - 08:38 AM Pathetic.. I've wasted enough time today... You grasp onto any petty pedantic point, arguing and talking back like a precocious child desperate to save itself from blame... you really can't see the wood for the trees.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 May 18 - 08:27 AM PFR, So don't insult me personally with your wild hysterical false accusations of being anti Israel... You admit it yourself. You describe it as "an abhorrent rogue regime." That is about as anti as it gets. The goodest and best of the Israeli population have my fullest sympathy and respect... Good. Most Israelis support their government on this. ...and if you had just been watching "Live from the Commons" and followed the sane rational civilised exchange between Emily Thornberry [lab] and Alistair Burt [con]; where both expressed mutual sorrow for the victims, I have been following, and agree with everything said. What do you imagine I might disagree with? you'd realise just how out of touch with reality and full of shite you make yourself look to all the rest of us..... Yes, that is how you extremists view mainstream opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 15 May 18 - 08:10 AM ...and if you had just been watching "Live from the Commons" and followed the sane rational civilised exchange between Emily Thornberry [lab] and Alistair Burt [con]; where both expressed mutual sorrow for the victims, questioned Israel's apparent shoot to kill orders utilizing excessively devastatingly injurious amunition, and called for peace from both sides, you'd realise just how out of touch with reality and full of shite you make yourself look to all the rest of us..... They readily contradict all your 'detached' lofty fabricated statements... Any decent minded informed reader will easily see you for what you are... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 15 May 18 - 07:12 AM Plus remember, unlike you and bob, I actually have a blood link to Jews and Israel, and a family lineage in Poland that came to an abrupt end... So don't insult me personally with your wild hysterical false accusations of being anti Israel.... The goodest and best of the Israeli population have my fullest sympathy and respect... The fanatical militarised religious thug zealots have my contempt... As do you... do you understand clearly now...????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 15 May 18 - 07:03 AM That response is not good enough by any criteria... You insult all of our intelligence. You are running off and hiding behind your parroted prefabricated script again... You are so obviously in denial, it's embarrassing to watch... The only state I am anti, is a state of murderous intolerant zealotry...!!!!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 May 18 - 07:03 AM PFR, you of PUBLICLY SUPPORTING AN ABHORRENT ROGUE REGIME It is an extreme view that Israel is "an abhorrent regime" PFR. It is not regarded as such by any liberal democracy or even the UK Labour Party. That shows how extreme your views actually are PFR. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 May 18 - 06:56 AM I put Israel's case as you lot all put the Palestinian case. Like most people in the West, I do tend to sympathise with the Israeli case. Within the Labour Party there are about 100 Labour MPs and 17 Lords who are members of Labour Friends of Israel. http://www.lfi.org.uk/in-parliament/ Your anti-Israel views are not widely held in the West, even within the Labour Party. Mine are more mainstream. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 15 May 18 - 06:47 AM "I just put Israel's case, as you put the Palestinian case. How is that wrong?" Because intelligent people don't pretend to take sides for sake of dry academic argument.. Certainly not as an excuse to absolve you of PUBLICLY SUPPORTING AN ABHORRENT ROGUE REGIME...!!! ..and certainly not while they are actively committing atrocities in the here and now.. Not eons ago in dusty history books.... You either really takes sides because of passionate belief in a side, or you behave responsibly and remain neutral and objective.. Are you seriously surprised we all find it almost impossible to believe you... and ridicule you ???? Grow up - and man up to what you really genuinely believe in... I refuse to support either side and consistently condemn the fanatical zealots causing conflict and death on both of them - yet you persistently accuse humanists like me of being extremists...!!!?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 May 18 - 06:00 AM I just put Israel's case, as you put the Palestinian case. How is that wrong? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 May 18 - 05:48 AM "Jim, no-one would defend mass murder." You always have - masscres never happened (every time) Sabra Shatila eyewitnessses lied You are a serial mass murder denier Get a grip of humanity Keith - your appeasement of killers is sick Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 May 18 - 05:19 AM The US will never accept the UN as the world policeman, Iains. The routine vetos shielding Israel also serve the equal function of bringing the UN into disrepute. Countries that want to be superpowers will always fart in the general direction of the UN. It isn't even a tiger, let alone a paper one. What has happened at the Gaza border was a massacre. A crowd of mostly unarmed protesters shot at with impunity while the country's leader was making a speech about peace in his newly-usurped "capital." We've reached a new low. Let's hope there's no more to come. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 15 May 18 - 05:08 AM If genuine the videoclip would appear to show murder. I wonder if it will be investigated? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq0YuTzjN9U |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 May 18 - 04:58 AM The Amnesty statement ignores the Israeli claim that a mass incursion was being attempted. Hamas admitted that was their aim. Such an incursion posed an imminent threat to the lives of Jewish civilians in settlements close to the fence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 15 May 18 - 04:51 AM Amnest International Press Release |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 May 18 - 04:42 AM Jim, no-one would defend mass murder. I am not a monster and neither is Bobad or BB. We just put israel's side of the story as you put the Palestinian case. That needs to happen. I am as horrified as you by the scenes shown yesterday. We only differ in who we think are mostly to blame for what happened. I mostly blame those who drove or persuaded people into that killing ground. Have the demonstrations a couple of hundred yards from the fence and no-one would come to harm. Notice there were no supportive demonstrations in other Muslim or Arab nations as we always used to see. Notice that the West Bank Palestinians have not supported the Friday demos. of recent weeks. Also they are withhloding pay from Gazan civil servants. Hamas is fast becoming a lost cause in the Muslim Arab world. Many Arab states now see Iran as the main geo-political threat to the region and are seeing alliance with Israel as the future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 May 18 - 04:09 AM There is something utterly disgusting about these two (Bruce seems to have done a Brer Rabbit) defending mass murder while it is still happening - defending past ones seems to be a hobby with Keith Israel seems to have found a true friend in Donald Trump's racist, antisemitic, misogynist, war mongering administration - the victims of the Holocaust would have been proud to have such an ally Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 15 May 18 - 03:54 AM I would suggest the statistics tell the story, all on their own. IDF 0. Palestinians 59 killed nearly 1200 injured. US blocks call for independent inquiry into Gaza deaths at UN. It really is time that veto was demolished. The UN is without fangs for as long as the veto power remains. Interesting no one comments on how differently the Israeli government is treated compared to that of Assad in Syria. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 May 18 - 02:45 AM Social media, which can be put up by anyone, are meaninglesst. It's the easiest thing in the world to plant propaganda. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 14 May 18 - 10:32 PM ..so basically not very substantial 'evidence' really...??? just hyped up social media chatter from an over excitable hot headed demonstrator...??? But shoot 'im just in case... that comb in his back pocket could bring down a sniper position...!!!!??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 14 May 18 - 09:48 PM Viral social media post on Palestinian social media the evening before today's violent riots, instructs Palestinians to act in accordance with the demand to bring "guns and knives" in order to kidnap Israeli civilians. This post was shared hundreds of times on various Palestinian social media accounts and pages, and shows premeditated intent to violence by Palestinians rioters. Viral Palestinian Social Media PSA prior to Nakba Day Riots |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 May 18 - 07:38 PM The meat cleaver, or whatever it was, was being used to cut the wire fence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 14 May 18 - 07:31 PM Were they long range laser guided meat cleavers...!!!??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 14 May 18 - 06:28 PM "Unarmed" protesters with MEAT CLEAVERS? WATCH: Palestinians cut through Gaza fence, clenching meat cleavers, and chant "Khaybar Khaybar" - a chant about the "army of Muhammad" killing Jews and promising to return and kill more. Emanuel Miller writes, "...To be fair, the vast majority of the protestors are not seeking to enter Israel, and are not bearing weapons. The trouble for Israel is that the violent thugs are mingling among the civilians, making it almost impossible to isolate them. I've served in the IDF, lived in Israel for over a decade, been near terror attacks, and has many friends who have lost loved ones to terrorism and war. And still I let out a gasp when I saw that blade. This is what Israel is up against." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 May 18 - 05:28 PM Bobad. The very epitome of denial and bigotry. But he has friends here. He'll be OK. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 14 May 18 - 05:24 PM IDF jets on Monday morning distributed leaflets over the Gaza Strip warning Palestinian civilians not to approach the security fence. The leaflets also stressed to the Gaza residents that the Hamas terror group, which rules the Strip, was putting their lives at risk by encouraging them to commit violence and attempt to infiltrate Israel. “Hamas is trying to hide its many failures by endangering your lives,” the leaflets said. “At the same time, Hamas is stealing your money and using it to dig tunnels at your expense.” “Don’t be puppets in the hands of Hamas,” the IDF urged. “You deserve a better government and a better future.” “Do not approach the security fence and do not participate in Hamas’s life-threatening farce,” the notice concludes sternly. The IDF has dropped similar leaflets in past weeks in an attempt to minimize the border fence violence and the possibility of civilian casualties. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 14 May 18 - 04:38 PM Israeli Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan appeared to liken Palestinians killed in ongoing border protests to Nazi casualties in World War II when he tweeted about the death toll in Gaza. Erdan said the number of Palestinians killed at Monday’s protest “doesn't indicate anything – just as the number of Nazis who died in the world war doesn't make Nazism something you can explain or understand.” |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 14 May 18 - 04:16 PM On the day Trump's Embassy opened, his spokesman blamed the Palestinians for provoking the disturbances...!!!!!!?????????????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 14 May 18 - 04:00 PM The official toll for Sharpsville was that 69 people were killed, including 8 women and 10 children, and 180 injured, including 31 women and 19 children. Many were shot in the back as they turned to flee, causing some to be paralyzed. For Gaza Palestinian Health Ministry officials said 55 protesters were killed and 2,700 injured either by live gunfire, tear gas or other means. “Already more than ten children have been killed and a thousand have been hurt, many suffering from life changing injuries. According to the Ministry of Health in Gaza, there are dozens of cases of children suffering extreme injuries. These include having to have limbs amputated or have had their bones shattered by shrapnel or live ammunition. Some have been hit in the torso, face, neck and head. "An analysis carried out last week by Save the Children and their partner organisation MAAN Development Centre, found that out of 500 injuries to children for which detailed information was obtained, 250 children (almost 50 percent) had been hit with live ammunition. "The White House declined to join in urging Israel to exercise restraint and pinned the blame squarely on Gaza's ruling Hamas group - backing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who described the Israeli military's actions as self-defence of his country's borders." 21st century technology against stones. Massacre is really the only word that fits, although if the death toll keeps climbing perhaps ethnic cleansing would be a more apt description. Just imagine the outrage should Assad have performed such a dastardly deed, or Russia, or Iran. Is “Something is rotten in the state of Denmark ??” |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 14 May 18 - 02:16 PM Jews killing muslims... what better entertainment for right wing christians...!!!??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 May 18 - 01:34 PM I meant 2000 of course Musn't spoil Keith's evening |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 May 18 - 01:23 PM "They have done it before." Death toll of demonstrators now around 100 - casualties well over 200 The troops have been instructed to "shoot to kill with care" The reporters are now reporting it as a serious massacre Not a single Israeli hurt so far The Israeli crowds have been chanting "there are no such people as Palestinians" If they go on this way they will be right Fucking fascist killers Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 14 May 18 - 01:21 PM “Moments ago, an IDF patrol foiled a bomb-laying attack by a cell of three armed terrorists near Rafah, close to the border. This is a particularly violent protest point. The troops responded with fire at the terrorists. The terrorists were killed.” The IDF also says an Israeli aircraft targeted a Hamas post in Jabaliya after shots were fired at Israeli troops stationed in the area. There were no Israeli casualties, the army says. #Free Gaza from Hamas |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 May 18 - 01:01 PM The threats to murder Jews are not "empty." They have done it before. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 May 18 - 01:00 PM You are that soldier defending civilian families barely a mile from the fence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 14 May 18 - 12:48 PM Try this. You are a soldiet, armed to the teeth with latest high tech weaponry. A bunch of unarmed civilians start shouting empty threats at you. Do you shoot and kill them? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 14 May 18 - 12:41 PM bob - do you really think he might go that far... and they seemed such a nice family when they moved in...!!!??? I'd better read up on the Israeli Army Advance Self Defence training guide.. "Shooting Fish in a Barrel..."... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 14 May 18 - 12:37 PM I have an ongoing border dispute with next door and his plans to build a large extension, encroaching invasively onto our back yard and shared alley... So It's ok for me to lob a brick over the fence at him and his architect as a warning strike...??? You're making no sense, try this: Your neighbour is trying to break down your fence in order to gain access to your property with the intention of killing you. Do you have the right to defend yourself? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 May 18 - 12:33 PM "You are just trying to cause friction with lies like that." It really is stupid to deny what your two friends have just signed up to You've managed to bring them all down My thanks for taht Jim carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 14 May 18 - 12:00 PM I could probably have a higher level of debate with a genuine parrot... Instead of a bloke who merely talks like one... In fact Action Man Talking Commander, and a petting zoo parrot both most likely have more varied vocabulary and expressive range of responses...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 May 18 - 11:43 AM Jim, cheer on the slaughter of demonstrators No-one has done that. The type that thinks songs demanding the killing of Jews "funny No-one does. You are just trying to cause friction with lies like that. I will not rise to it. PFR, Just more personal stuff from you, but still nothing relevant to the thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 14 May 18 - 11:21 AM bob - cheers.. I'll have to remember that.. I have an ongoing border dispute with next door and his plans to build a large extension, encroaching invasively onto our back yard and shared alley... So It's ok for me to lob a brick over the fence at him and his architect as a warning strike...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 14 May 18 - 11:06 AM get yer retaliation in first..eh...??? Self defense is not retaliation...............try another smear tactic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 14 May 18 - 11:01 AM bob - Judged guilty and executed before they can even commit the 'murderous' crimes they are posthumously accused of...??? get yer retaliation in first..eh...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 14 May 18 - 10:22 AM The Hamas terrorist group is leading and orchestrating the recent wave of violence from Gaza aimed at breaking the border fence, storming Israel with thousands of rioters and attacking Israeli civilians. Israeli is not instigating this violence and Israel has the right to self-defense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 May 18 - 10:15 AM You can both have a PARTY TONIGHT tonight Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 May 18 - 10:12 AM They've done it - THEY'VE BEAT THE SHARPEVILLE RECORD Sabra Shatila olympics here they come It takes a special type of sick bastard to cheer on the slaughter of demonstrators before the survivors have had time to drag away their dead The type that thinks songs demanding the killing of Jews "funny" I suppose Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 14 May 18 - 09:41 AM Aren't the victims always to blame? Only when they are Jews, it seems. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 14 May 18 - 09:39 AM Can we be so certain K & bob aren't actually working for the Palestinians.. They are doing their utmost to undermine and discredit supporters of Israel...??? At least one of them reminds me of vintage Action Man and Barbie dolls.. The one's where you'd pull a string in the back to hear the same few limited prerecorded statements, over and over again, until parents got sick of the sound and hid them under the stairs... "Hello, my name is K***.. You LIARS on the Far-Left express extreme views.. You are extreme left enemies of western democracy...... Would you like to be my friend, we can play together.." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 May 18 - 09:18 AM On cue again Aren't the victims always to blame? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 14 May 18 - 08:32 AM Israel, like any other country, has the right to protect its citizens from being massacred by hordes of terrorists breaching its border in order to carry out that massacre. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 May 18 - 08:23 AM Only to you Jim. Who shares your extreme view? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 May 18 - 08:06 AM 25 dead and over 1000 injured as the protesters approached the fence That just about put Israel and Apartheid South Africa neck and neck in the slaughter of protesters stakes Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 14 May 18 - 07:12 AM t was cleared for publication today that Palestinians who crossed the border into Israel and were questioned by the Shin Bet revealed that Hamas sends its own members to the border in order to sabotage security infrastructure and promote violent activities. In addition, the Shin Bet uncovered that Iran transfers funds to Hamas so that it can carry out the violent protests. Yehia Ijla, a 19-year-old Hamas member, told the Shin Bet during his interrogation that Hamas instructs members to cut the border fence and steal security cameras while dressed as civilians. Others are in charge of giving civilians tires, which are set on fire near the border to create black clouds of smoke that cover up Hamas’s terrorist acts near the fence. In addition, Hamas terrorists prepare the flaming kites, which have set fire to several Israeli fields near the border, and give them to civilians. In the interrogation of another Gazan, the Shin Bet discovered that Hamas terrorists go undercover as civilians to try to convince children to cross the border and steal IDF equipment. On May 4, a 13-year-old boy was injured while he was trying to breach the security fence in order to steal a security camera. JOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 May 18 - 06:51 AM Still nothing tosay about your support for the killing of Jews and your serial appalling behaviour? I have debunked your absurd claim about that thread from eight years ago, and it is not my behaviour that is appalling. You raise these ancient issues because you can not defend your case today. You do exactly the same thing every time you lose an argument. We are not here to discuss me, just the issues relevant to the thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 May 18 - 06:04 AM Right on cue "Still nothing to say about the current Israel issues." Still nothing tosay about your support for the killing of Jews and your serial appalling behaviour? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 May 18 - 05:43 AM PFR, Outing hypocrisy amd malevolent duplicity is my serious contribution to this thread... taking the piss out of the perpetrator is very serious work... Just personal abuse and name calling then. Still nothing to say about the current Israel issues. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 May 18 - 05:39 AM Last Friday there was "only" one death. There was less violence so less reporting. Most people know that Israel is just trying to prevent incursion and mass murder. The outrage you express against Israel is not widely felt. Today the embassy opening presents another excuse for violence, and then we have Nakba day. Let us hope reason and restraint prevail. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 May 18 - 03:56 AM ""Kites are the tip of the iceberg." Yup - wire cutters and slingshotts are on their way This Bullshit came from Israeli propaganda mouthpiece YT News Israel must be quaking in its fallout shelters Utter crap Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 May 18 - 02:34 AM There remains an ominously deathly silence on what is happening on the border at present - there hasnt been any major reporting in the media since the beginning, which is indicative of the influence Israeli propaganda is having on our media I can still remember the papers being full of similar shootings - Kent State, Sharpville, Soweto, Mai Lai - day after day on it until it became commonplace Here, nothing - no outrage, not even information. !00,000 Palestinians are due to march today The Times of Israel is claiming in its headlines that "hundreds plan to try breach the fence and carry out a “massacre” of Israeli civilians" - this claim comes from the same IDF who have been shooting down protesters - 40+ dead and thousands of casualties - for over a month without a single Israeli casualty to date In fairness, they do show as evidence a four-day old photograph of a protester welding a very deadly-looking pair of wire cutters! I hope it is not the case, but it could be a bad day today Let's hope our press and statesmen find the time to take an interest in it Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 14 May 18 - 12:49 AM Outing hypocrisy amd malevolent duplicity is my serious contribution to this thread... taking the piss out of the perpetrator is very serious work... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 May 18 - 02:48 PM Don't be stupid Keith Screaming "Kill the Jews" is not silly - it's dangerous and it's downright insulting to Jewish people You've really shit in your own nest here - now you sra down to making excuses - next step will be to tell us somebody put you up to it Your defending this dangerous garbage especially considering the tim it was written makes you the antisemite you are You really let the cat out of the bag by the outraged manner in which you went for my "whining yids" story "Illogical" - why Why should you defend those bastards if you don't support them - it is exactly the type of thing they could easily have said - it echoes Ramsey's poetry prfectly Perhaps you'd like to claim that he didn't write the stuff!! "Now, I am here to discuss current issues over Israel, " Not with me you're not - hopefully with nobody else (other than your fellow antisemitism appeaser Why are you acting as if you have any authority here PFR will post what he wishes without your sergeant major tactics Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 13 May 18 - 02:42 PM Hamas drops all pretense of "peaceful" protest in planning mass breach of border Monday and Tuesday. Release video warning Jews: "don't stay, the Palestinians are swarming unrestrained, and we recommend you leave without hesitation." "Kites are the tip of the iceberg. Those who stay will bear the full consequences. You've been warned. We'll break through the border and reach all the way to your communities, and we will not die alone." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 13 May 18 - 02:12 PM Honestly, PFR, it really is not worth it. Stare into the pit and you may get dragged in. Skip along the edge of the abyss and you may fall. And any other cliched phrase you can think of ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 May 18 - 01:57 PM Jim, Why is suggesting the killing of Jews a year or so before six million were exterminated "silly" ? That is what made it anti-Semitic. The rubbish doggerel made it silly. It certainly did not count as evidence of your ludicrous claim that the British establishment was riddled with anti-Semitism, or justify you in claiming a quote that you had just made up? That was my point at the time. Now, I am here to discuss current issues over Israel, not to argue over things said in unrelated threads many years ago. That is a tactic you always revert to when you have lost an argument. PFR, I seriously doubt you are the best qualified most credible self appointed arbiter of what is a serious contribution to a mudcat BS thread... OK. produce one serious contribution you actually have made. Installing bouncy castles and petting zoos on the border? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 May 18 - 03:59 AM Gentlemen - to our MUTTONS Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 May 18 - 07:17 PM Is-er-ail next year jerus-a-lem we won the world cup... Eurovision.. come on if you are hard enough... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 May 18 - 07:05 PM Nothing? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 May 18 - 03:01 PM "It was a silly anti-Semitic song" Why is suggesting the killing of Jews a year or so before six million were exterminated "silly" ? Feel free to answer this Bruce - don't be shy THank you for confirming that you believe it is "silly" to suggest killing Jews - it makes my point Why are you still defending British fascists after the death of six million Jews ? Feel free to answer this Bruce. Had Hitler one the war the man you are defending might well have been in the British Government Is that "silly" too ? Feel free to respond to this on your own or Keith's behalf Bruce. PLease don't disappoint me and walk away from this Bruce I would love to have you as further confirmation of the appalling people who support Israel The more the merrier. "But he is his own worse enemy, " The most sadly stupid thing about Keith is he has never learned to lie down when he's beaten At no time has he ever walked away from a seriously inhuman and stupid statement His "all male Pakistanis are culturally implanted" claim Instead of throwing in the towel when he found himself alone he invents phantom "prominent people" who said the same thing - he has never produced a single person to have ever done so and had they, they would have been drummed out of any job they ever held and probably prosecuted for incitement to race hatered Go read what he said again and tell me that would not be a criminal offence off line. "Brainwashed Irish Schoolchildren" (again a single-hander with occasional interjections by now expelled Teribus) I had never read Chrisine Keneally's book on Irish education - so I went off and did so I came back and put into context what Keneally actually said Keith, who still hasn't read the book, continues to take the line she used out of context and still accuses Irish children of being brainwashed "Slave owning Travellers" At no time did Keith concede that taking the actions of a few criminals as a "serious over-representation of a community numbering well over 100,000 was a stupidly bigoted thing to do He has never withdrawn his vicious claim so it remains an example of his extremist bigotry Tory rapists and Paedofiles and arming Assad with riot control equipment and selling him chemicals and ammunition - still part of Keith's "middle-of-the-road moderate" CV Now, you continue to defend British fascist antisemitism and complain that it's "eight years old" so somehow subject to s statute of limitations. So this stays on your CV too, and hopefully it will now be added to Bruce's To defend a poem which calls for the killing of Jews a year or so before six million of them dies at the hands of the fascism Keith (and Bruce) are defending is not only antisemitic - it is obscenely inhuman If criticising Israel is disrespectful to the dead of the Holocaust is antisemitic - wta the **** is this viciousness? Tell be again why it's silly - BOTH OF YOU THIS TIME Yours in anticipation Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 12 May 18 - 02:35 PM Sort of my opinion of JC. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 May 18 - 02:18 PM Bruce - I hoped I made it clear that me and Jim are independent of each other in our problematic relationships with K****. Obviously we will overlap... I don't speak for Jim, or make a habit of backing him up.. and will criticise and disagree with him... Over the years I've found it more practicable to mostly stay out of Jim's way when he's bit his teeth deep into an argument and won't let go... If it appears we are working in tandem, that's because few others are daft enough to continue with this thread, for the moment it just seems like me and him... We honestly are not a team... I would rather keep overt reference to my issues with K**** confined to just this one thread, than risk spoiling any others.. ..and I would happily accept a truce with K**** if he became a more positive member of mudcat community, and genuinely meant it... I'm rather old school.. I'd much prefer 'enemies' I can respect... I will say this yet again, Keith is capable of astute points, and is clearly knowledgeable. But he is his own worse enemy, regularly undermining his own credibility with his immature resorts to playing the innocent, name calling, and whining when folks give him back some of his own petty treatment... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 12 May 18 - 01:53 PM Denies... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 12 May 18 - 01:51 PM PFR In THIS case Keith is correct and JC is in the wrong. No judgement on any previous interactions between you two, but to back up JC is giving credit to logic by JC that , when applied to JC, even HE deies is valid. Just my 2 cents worth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 May 18 - 01:50 PM I seriously doubt you are the best qualified most credible self appointed arbiter of what is a serious contribution to a mudcat BS thread... ..perhaps one of the most devious, narrow minded, pedantic, and hyperbolic though... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 May 18 - 01:21 PM Jim, you opened this thread with these words, "Can we have a rational debate on this important...." Now here you are falsely claiming I said something anti-Semitic eight years ago, while PFR continues to post only personal stuff and name calling having never made any serious contribution to the actual debate at all! Suggesting it was a "silly song" was an extremely antisemitic statement It was a silly anti-Semitic song, and I said "Silly songs don't count," as evidence for your ludicrous lies. It was not being anti-Semitic, it was rebuttal of your ludicrous lies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 May 18 - 12:26 PM "Yes. It was eight years ago and this was the context." THe soing was made two years before sox million Jews were sent to their deaths - not eight years ago Suggesting it was a "silly song" was an extremely antisemitic statement Not so long ago you were screaming "antisemite" at a Labour politician who made a comment in her student days Is there a time-limit on antisemitism - if so, what is it? "That was a lie. No-one had said any such thing." How do you know Keith Was the feller who wrote the poem I put up incapable of making such a statement? I said I heard this story in my youth and could not remember the politician s involved - it's hardly a statement that the press would keep on archive Why do you continue to deny such a statement after all this time (eight years Isn't it?), when it is perfectly logical that it could have been made - if it isn't logical, please explain why THAT IS A RHETORICAL QUESTION - YOU KEEP DOING SO BECAUSE - LIKE YOUR SUPPORTERS HERE, ANTISEMITISM IS ONLY A USEFUL ACCUSATION WHEN IT CAN BE USED AGAINST THE LEFT - IT'S PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE WHEN IT IS SPOUTED BY RIGHT-WING NUTTERS Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 May 18 - 11:06 AM "I find that utterly unacceptable." I don't care.. divisive hypocrites are not entitled to 'normal' standards of respect... "If you have time to make vile accusations, you should make the time to substantiate them." I'll bear that in mind for if I ever make vile accusations on a par with those you habitually resort to... For the moment I'm just sarcastically dogging your heels to remind you that your tiresome objectionable behaviour is not going unnoticed... You do not have free reign to slander and malign, absolved from all consequences...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 May 18 - 10:52 AM PFR, The refusal to jump to your commands to substantiate is because I have far better things to do with my time I find that utterly unacceptable. If you have time to make vile accusations, you should make the time to substantiate them. If you can't back your filthy lies, keep quiet like you do on the actual subject of the thread. Jim, Can you explain how a song containing these verses:.....written by a British Fascist in the process of organising an alternative government for when "Herr Hitler won the war" can possibly be described as an "Unimportant silly song" Yes. It was eight years ago and this was the context. You stated, " one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids". " That was a lie. No-one had said any such thing. You went on to claim that the British establishment was "was riddled with Nazi sympathisers." (Bollocks because in Parliament they voted to fight even though defeat seemed certain.) You backed your claim with those verses and I said "Silly songs don't count," as evidence for your ludicrous lies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 May 18 - 10:45 AM "but counts on mere mortals being put off the herculean task of being tied up for days rummaging through it..." Thanks to my dealings with Keith and that some of his outrageously inhuman statements are indelibly imprinted on my memory almost word-for-word (I maybe forget what I had for breakfast this morning, but I'll never forget "all male Pakistanis" and cultural implant"), it really isn't difficult to find stuff. Mudcat is blessed with a very efficient search engine - remember a large enough part of the phrase and it takes a few minutes to find the full statement All my postings today have ben done while I was digitising hundreds of soundfiles, strimming around the outside of an acre of garden and replacing a transformer in a ceiling light (and completing Code-word and reading two chapters of Peggy Seeger's biography). Who says men aren't good at multi-tasking (Pat does!!) Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 May 18 - 10:13 AM Jim - you are a braver man than I, researching back into slimy weasel's inordinately over piled post garbage heap... He knows what evidence is there to be found but counts on mere mortals being put off the herculean task of being tied up for days rummaging through it... Like how some high profile politicians and criminals stretch out their trials for years knowing the police will waste millions of man hours searching for key evidence... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 May 18 - 09:57 AM Sorry lads, said I wasn't going to do this but Keith is presenting us with a perfect example of everything that is wrong with Israel today "By the definition accepted by 31 countries including yours " I have no control over what countries accept and refuse to do so when they are designed to protect right-wing extremism "It detracts from the horror of the holocaust to suggest the Nazis were no worse than the government of Israel." Germany embarked on the greatest and most successful example of ethnic cleansing in modern history in modern history - result - six million deliberately murdered Jews The greatest insult possible to those dead is for a country claiming to act on behalf of the Jewish People embark on a similar policy of Ethnic Cleansing using the six million dead as an excuse for this policy Not only is this what the Israeli regime has embarked on, but it is what hald the population of Israel are now demanding You support this policy by describing the confirmation of this 50% in the Jeruslem Times as " It just published some survey findings" Putting any critiscism of any Government beyond reproach by redefining terms like 'antisemitism' is not only antisemitic, it is naked fascism - George Orwell's wet dream No Government has a right to change the language to suit its policies As I said, the only reliable definition of antisemitism is "persecution and denigration of the Jewish People" That is underlined when the redefinition makes Jews "antisemitic self haters" - an establishment turning against its own people I have noticed recently that some American dictionaries have now re-defined the term 'facism' to include governments who nationalise private property - technically, every government in Britain who adopt a policy of nationalisation and any that plan to do so in the future are nor "Fascists" Brave New World here we come While we're conversing, perhaps you can clear up a point for us Can you explain how a song containing these verses: Land of Jewish finance, Fooled by Jewish lies, In press and books and movies While our birthright dies. Longer still and longer Is the rope they get But, by the God of battles T'will serve to hang them yet. written by a British Fascist in the process of organising an alternative government for when "Herr Hitler won the war" can possibly be described as an This was your claim, wasn't it - nobody faked a posting on your behalf? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 May 18 - 09:32 AM The refusal to jump to your commands to substantiate is because I have far better things to do with my time than trawl through all your over bloated high post count... Of course you would be very keen on folks being so distracted away from more constructive use of time and intellectual energy.. Whilst satisfying your unseemly desperate need for attention... There is a far simpler response to your over needy demands but I am too much of a gentleman..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 May 18 - 09:05 AM PFR, if you make disgusting accusations against other members you should be able to substantiate them. You can't because they are LIES! Anything to say on the subject of the thread yet PFR? Why not? Jim, By the definition accepted by 31 countries including yours and mine and the UK Labour Party, it is anti-Semitic to compare Israel to Nazi Germany, which you have done. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 May 18 - 08:43 AM Standing at the pearly gates... You know where "It wasn't me.. anyone who says I did is a liar.. prove I did it..".. will get sly weasel folks sent down to... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 May 18 - 08:29 AM "who could be accused of such a thing." "Who Me!!!!!" 'Course you're not Keith "That counts I fear Jim. " Not unless you equate the actions of teh Israelis with the Jewish People, which is included in the definition It is antisemitic to attempt to rob Jews of their cultural identity - you and Israel are supporting that Just go away and stop attempting to scuttle a thread that ahs exposed your group for what they are Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 May 18 - 08:19 AM Folks who are so 'unaware' of their persistent obvious transgressions can only be extremely thick...??? .. or habitual petty criminal liars... who's immediate reaction to being caught red handed yet again, is "Not me guv / no comment / prove it..."...? What other explanation can there possibly be...????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 May 18 - 07:20 AM your little trio are up to your arses in that one with your support for pre war British fascism I am not aware of anyone on Mudcat who could be accused of such a thing. You resort to debate by insult again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 May 18 - 07:18 AM I have never intentionally described Israel as such - just the bunch of Nazis who run it That counts I fear Jim. It detracts from the horror of the holocaust to suggest the Nazis were no worse than the government of Israel. Not just my view, but widely accepted as I said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 May 18 - 07:16 AM In the present climate of Israeli political extremism the only possible workable definition of Antisemitism is the persecution and denigration of the Jewish people and you and your little trio are up to your arses in that one with your support for pre war British fascism Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 May 18 - 07:12 AM " You have likened Israel to Nazi Germany." So have many thousand Jews - including high ups in the Israeli establishment I realise, of course that these are "non Jew" Jews and "self- loathers", so maybe their wrord doesn't count in Benjamin Netanyahu's 'Brave New Israel' I have never intentionally described Israel as such - just the bunch of Nazis who run it Redefining words to suit political policy and attempting to rob people who oppose that policy of theiir cultural identity is the classic Nazism that filled the oven of Auschwitz and Bergen-Belzen It's you who should be careful because this is the shit you have broken your arse to support Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 May 18 - 06:46 AM Jim, I assume you are not going to provide evidence of my anti-Semitism Be careful Jim. You have likened Israel to Nazi Germany. That is now recognised as anti-Semitic. You may not accept that definition, but it is accepted by the authorities (and the Labour Party.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 12 May 18 - 04:37 AM Not just Israel carrying out unprovoked illegal attacks in Syria. but also the UK. The UK drones are releasing thermobaric weapons that have a brisance sufficient to cause severe internal organ damage. https://dronewars.net/2018/05/02/mod-accidentally-reveals-british-drones-firing-thermobaric-missiles-in-syria/ https://www.blacklistednews.com/article/65789/israel-now-faces-new-rules-of-engagement-in.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 18 - 07:19 PM I assume you are not going to provide evidence of my antisemitism nor of my supporting Irish Nazism !! Nor are you going to condemn antisemitism from a friend Maany thanks for providing such a fine example of modern day Israel and it's supporters Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 03:27 PM No, JC. You are, again, incorrect. Even saying it twice will not make it so- the requirement is 3 times, and you have to be Sidhe for it to be effective. Next thing you will do is declare all Tom Lehrer admirers to be Nazis... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 18 - 03:08 PM Still no acknowledgement of the stated facts. You are an anti-semite, and have shown it in many of your posts. Denying it does not make that fact go away." Proving it establisheds I have made all thes statements None forthcoming yet Tou are now resorting to openly lying "You just keep making the claim that I should condemn something YOU see, but cannot explain to anyone what it is-" I have done - several times - as the statment is produced word for word, it is not necessary Robo tried to wiggle out of it that way and appears to have fallen on his sword There is nothing to explain - Keith dismissed antisemitic poetry demanding the death of Jews as "silly" and "unimportant and compared it to a sit-com song The poem was written a year or so before the Nazis sent six million Jews to their deaths What is so impenetrable about that? You've moved on from this and are now openly supporting it "NO. I have not, since you have never presented anything other than your warped view of what Keith said.? Game, set and match on this one, I think! Now - where are all these examples of my antisemitism and whare is your proof that I supported Irish support of the Nazis ? Chiding name-calling of the type you are now indulging in is a sure sign of your having painted yourself into a corner Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 18 - 03:08 PM Still no acknowledgement of the stated facts. You are an anti-semite, and have shown it in many of your posts. Denying it does not make that fact go away." Proving it establisheds I have made all thes statements None forthcoming yet Tou are now resorting to openly lying "You just keep making the claim that I should condemn something YOU see, but cannot explain to anyone what it is-" I have done - several times - as the statment is produced word for word, it is not necessary Robo tried to wiggle out of it that way and appears to have fallen on his sword There is nothing to explain - Keith dismissed antisemitic poetry demanding the death of Jews as "silly" and "unimportant and compared it to a sit-com song The poem was written a year or so before the Nazis sent six million Jews to their deaths What is so impenetrable about that? You've moved on from this and are now openly supporting it "NO. I have not, since you have never presented anything other than your warped view of what Keith said.? Game, set and match on this one, I think! Now - where are all these examples of my antisemitism and whare is your proof that I supported Irish support of the Nazis ? Chiding name-calling of the type you are now indulging in is a sure sign of your having painted yourself into a corner Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 May 18 - 02:53 PM Pfr - "Alexa - how do we human beings, and artificial intelligence devices like yourself, communicate effectively with unintelligent entities...???" Alexa - "Eff off human, he's your problem not mine... Have a nice day..." Pfr - "Well thank's a lot you not particularly helpful robot.. play music track Pop goes the Weasel as recorded by any artist in Prime library instead..."... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 May 18 - 02:34 PM pop goes the sly weasel... So no quote. Just another baseless personal attack. Anything to say on the subject yet PFR? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 May 18 - 02:32 PM Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar said: “What’s the problem if hundreds of thousands storm this fence which is not a border of a state? What’s the problem with that?“ https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-protests-latest-israel-shot-dead-border-march-gunfire-palestine-sinwar-hamas-a8347366.html It has been the border of the state of Israel since its inception. Hamas denies Israel the right to exist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 May 18 - 02:32 PM pop goes the sly weasel... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 May 18 - 02:15 PM PFR, I'll remind that it was K**** & bobs hysterical malicious accusations of antisemitism, Let's see a quote then. No more malicious, baseless accusations please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 02:12 PM As posted in another thread: "We have to remind ourselves that the offender does not get to decide what is offensive; that perception belongs to those offended. " YOU offend me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 02:07 PM Still no acknowledgement of the stated facts. You are an anti-semite, and have shown it in many of your posts. Denying it does not make that fact go away. No answer to anything I've said - no cigar You just keep making the claim that I should condemn something YOU see, but cannot explain to anyone what it is- just that we MUST condemn it or you will call us anti-semites. The first time you post that, you may be a wit. The second time , a half-wit. By now, you are a nit-wit. Better quit while you are ahead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 May 18 - 02:05 PM At this point, I'll remind that it was K**** & bobs hysterical malicious accusations of antisemitism, just to upset and annoy good folks, that kicked off much of this over heated rancour... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 01:56 PM So, MY failure to condemn something YOU cannot explain makes ME a Antisemitism deniers, while YOUR failure to condemn the Irish support of Nazis in WWII makes you... a decent and intelligent human being? NOPE. If YOU haven't denied your anti-semitism, YOU are just perfect- I have not even seen the antisemitism that YOU claim Keith is guilty of, but MY failure to condemn it SIGHT UNSEEN make me what??? You really need to think through your claims- YOU condemn YOURSELF every time you try to attack others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 18 - 01:43 PM "Already explained YOUR antisemitism. " Congratulations Bruce - you have now entered that great and noble circle of Antisemitism deniers Your card and badge is in the post "And YOUR support of the Irish helping the Nazis? " Sigh.... Where have I Won't hold my breath Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 18 - 01:43 PM "Already explained YOUR antisemitism. " Congratulations Bruce - you have now entered that great and noble circle of Antisemitism deniers Your card and badge is in the post "And YOUR support of the Irish helping the Nazis? " Sigh.... Where have I Won't hold my breath Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 01:09 PM "And still you refuse to condemn Keith's antisemitism Let's see if you are prepared to explain what it is if it is not just that You can put that in the file next to "must explain Carroll's antisemitism" in your in tray " Already explained YOUR antisemitism. I don't see what YOU claim in Keith's post.Since I do not see what YOU claim, EXPLAIN it, and I will see if I agree it is antisemitism- YOU don't get to decide what I think. " only the trio of you who defend mass murder " And YOUR support of the Irish helping the Nazis? You are stating YOU are not a decent and intelligent human being? I do not see mass murder where you do- I see it in the efforts of Palestinians to invade Israel and kill civilians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 18 - 01:02 PM "NO. I have not, since you have never presented anything other than your warped view of what Keith said." I gave the quote verbatim - you explain it "Why not? YOU seem to have no problem lecturing the rest of us on it. " Not the rest of you Bruce - only the trio of you who defend mass murder Most people are decent and intelligent human beings And still you refuse to condemn Keith's antisemitism Let's see if you are prepared to explain what it is if it is not just that You can put that in the file next to "must explain Carroll's antisemitism" in your in tray Ball's in your court now - your serve Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 12:53 PM Between you and him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 May 18 - 12:48 PM Bruce - scaling up from this microcosm... If we can think of K**** & Jim as USA v USSR [can't say who is which] then the rest of us are smaller nations caught up jostling in shifting alliances amidst the eternal cold war, sabre rattling and proxy battles... In regards to K****, like I always say.. I prefer to look for the best in folks and extend the hand of friendship and reconciliation.. But K**** has rejected this too often and persists in being divisive and objectionable.. So I told him straight - I will relate to him sarcastically with perseverance and disdain... Until he either leaves mudcat of his own volition, or genuinely mends his ways more positively and begins to show real respect for fellow mudcatters... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 12:32 PM PFR, UK politics is not of interest to me- no horse in the race. I note that you don't like Keith- not my concern. I do NOT judge people here on other than what they post- IF he has offended you, I am not involved. He does bring up valid points that JC does not ever acknowledge, and presents facts that JC would rather not have think about (IMO). But someone who brings up the past when it suits him, then in the SAME THREAD says we should not bring up the past is, at best, disingenuous, and at worst a danger to reasonable discussion. I find JC to be unwilling to consider other's opinions, when they differ from his pronouncements of what we should be thinking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 May 18 - 12:17 PM Bruce - I've had a deeper think than usual this time of the afternoon.. and here I am back again instead of getting on with important chores.. I can only speak for myself, but all things considered, this may apply for others...??? I suggest the reason why so many threads are obsessed with Israel and not India or other contentious regions, is.. K*****...!!! Thinking back, I got hooked into all this many similar threads ago simpley because of K****'s persistent pernicious cynical exploitation of Jewish issues as an insincere ulterior motive for attacking the UK Labour Party, and the decent moderate folk he vindictively maligns as the 'extremist left'.... To much extent, this has backfired for himself. .. and Israel threads have since multiplied as he repeatedly squirms to justify himself and desperately seek help from those he conives into supporting him... I actually ought to thank him for giving me motivation to resist his bile and learn more about, Jews, Israel, and myself in the process...!!!??? ..and here we all are... yet again... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 11:59 AM "You refuse to condemn antismitism "" NO. I have not, since you have never presented anything other than your warped view of what Keith said. "And still you refuse to ever refer to Keith's antisemitism" I see YOUR antisemitism, but have not seen HIS. IF I do, I will comment on it then. "Please don't lecture me about humanity " Why not? YOU seem to have no problem lecturing the rest of us on it. Point made, I think |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 18 - 11:54 AM "No answer to anything I've said - no cigar You refuse to condemn antismitism yet refuse accuse critics of Israel of antisemitism Even if we work from your definition that makes you not only a hypocrite nut an antisemite "I NEVER claimed to be speaking for the "Jewish People"" Just as well really! "You ought to consider that you may also be human. I do actually - regard both the shooting down of demonstrators and the defending of such totally inhuman - that is when you trio do Please don't lecture me about humanity And still you refuse to ever refer to Keith's antisemitism Point made, I think JIm Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 11:44 AM Your opinions, and you have the right to have them. I do not agree with most of your comments. I also object strongly when YOU state what OTHERS must be because of YOUR opinions. I NEVER claimed to be speaking for the "Jewish People" I speak for myself, and give my opinion as best as I can. Being human, I may sometimes be wrong, or change my opinions as new facts come to my attention. You ought to consider that you may also be human. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 18 - 11:26 AM "YOU hold Israel to a set of standards that you do NOT apply to other nations" Where hae I ever done that? I expect all nations to respect human life Israel does not I expect all nations to be answerable to internationsl laws Isreal would rather close down International law courts rather than answer to their crimes I condemn all nations who bahave in thet way I have condemned Muslim countries, and Christian countries and well as my own and my chosen residence You don't get it do you I am discussing ordinary human beings - not Governments or organisations - I don't trust either I will not condemn the Palestinians for fighting back any more than I did the Jews who fought the British In the first case Israel is the aggressor, in the last Britain was the aggressor - on each case it was a case of people fighting aggression with every means at their disposal I HAVE NEVER AT ANY TIME WILL I EVER DENY THE RIGHT OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE SELF DETERMINATION - SHOW WHERE i HAVE EVER DONE SO My definition of antisemitism is and always has been the persecution and denigration of Jews. AS far as I am concerned Israel no longer speaks for a people who the describe "self-hating" or "non-Jews" if they don't toe the party line - that is fascism The term has been redefined to suit a political line so many times that it has become meaningless so until you can find me having denigrated the Jewish people you have no case Keith gave an opinion on a song that suggested sending the Jewish people to be exterminated as unimportant and "silly" You refuse even to address it - never mind condemn it You have no case - you have no right to claim you speak on behalf of the Jewish people Finished with you here - I think Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 May 18 - 11:17 AM Bruce - I like and respect Jim, and need him to stay around for my own selfish learning reasons.. but don't really actively defend him... He's his own man and big and tough enough to fight for himself on occasions when it looks like he might have dug a hole a little too deep.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 11:12 AM IMO, of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 11:11 AM Not a problem. Just pointing the common usage out- as long as you are consistent with ALL religions, I will not take offense. But you should be careful of defending JC- As I said, he seems to have a tendency to only allow one side to be looked at, and NEVER admits that he might be less than correct. I find this a flaw, in reasonable discussion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 May 18 - 11:06 AM Bruce - I hope we can maintain a fair working rapport. I'll apologise to you personally for lack of capital "J"s.. Please understand, because of my own quirks, I generally refuse to capitalise any deities or religions... It is not my intention to single out any religion more than others for disrespect... It might not sound much, but my 1/4 blood is having some influence on my own sense of identity. Which is why I am curious to learn more of that part of my bloodline history.. and my own little place in this present day heritage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 11:00 AM "You have never produced antisemitism from me - you would have been screaming for my donation if you had" I did- you never noticed it, or even acknowledged you had read it. And AGAIN: have noted antisemitism here- but primarily on YOUR posts. *********************************************************** YOU hold Israel to a set of standards that you do NOT apply to other nations, leading one to believe that you are a bigot. *********************************************************** "Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination (e.g. by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour). Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation." https://antisemitism.uk/definition/ SO PAY UP!!! You have lost your right even to mention 1948 massacres and that will remain until you condemn the Muslims for the same activities you condemn Israel for. "Until than it is about politics, pure and simple" Obviously. If Israel had a far Left government, you would be happy with everything they do. Just look at your (lack of) reply to the Far Left Sinn Fein support of the Nazis. http://markhumphrys.com/sfira.nazis.html http://markhumphrys.com/sfira.nazis.docs.html#jews http://markhumphrys.com/sfira.nazis.html#holocaust 'Go and have a pint with Keith - he's about your level" If you mean a decent person you have falsely accused in order to advance your own antisemitism, he may well be at my level. I cannot think that YOU have gotten that high, from your posts and your "tactics" in discussion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 11 May 18 - 10:53 AM Any positive ideas for a future relatively peaceful resolution...??? You've asked me before and I answered you - my answer still applies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 10:52 AM PFR, Thank you for the warning. I have to judge people by what they state in their posts ( and by what they REFUSE to answer, or discuss.) I only know a few mudcatters well enough to make that kind of judgement beyond their posts. I would hope any Muslims reading these threads regard JC with mistrust and suspicion... And it is considered correct to capitalize Jew, like one capitalizes Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 May 18 - 10:47 AM Bruce- I have at least twice in this thread suggested that K***'s sympathy for jews is fake, and he only tolerates those he finds convenient in pursuing right wing objectives... I would hope any jews reading these threads regard him with mistrust and suspicion... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 18 - 10:44 AM "I have noted and condemned YOUR antisemitism" Now you are lying You have never produced antisemitism from me - you would have been screaming for my donation if you had I am referring to Keith's antisemitism If you refuse to condemn it you have no right to condemn annybody elses - as I say - you cannot pick and choose Go and have a pint with Keith - he's about your level Who knows, you might find some "self hating Jews" who who can talk a little humanity into you Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 May 18 - 10:40 AM bob - so if you can be persuaded to look further forward than 1949.. Any positive ideas for a future relatively peaceful resolution...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 10:37 AM "You are refusing to condemn open santisemitism " I have noted and condemned YOUR antisemitism. I have NOT seen any such postings by others here. YOU make a claim about Keith- the rest of the posters here have not seen what YOU claim is antisemitism, and from YOUR posts that DO demonstrate it, I would not trust what YOU say about the topic without real evidence- that YOU have always claimed and NEVER provided. YOUR misunderstanding and mis-characterization of simple statements is NOT cause to think others here are as antisemitic as YOUR posts have been. "1948 for ***** sake - people who weren't born then are being slaughtered now" AS I NOTED, YOU are the one who brought up 1948- so fucking deal with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 11 May 18 - 10:26 AM In 1947 the UN resolution recommended the creation of independent Arab and Jewish States. The plan was accepted by the Jews. The Arabs refused and started a war that is ongoing from 1947 until today. -----"This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of LIKE THE MONGOLIAN MASSACRES " Arab League general secretary, Azzam Pasha, declaration when 7 Arab armies attacked the defending Israel in 1948 ---- “Palestine shall be consumed with fire and blood if the Jews get any part of it.” --- Declared on November 24, 1947, by the Acting Chairman of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, Jamal Al-Husseini In March, 1976, Mahmoud Abbas told the PLO newspaper, Filastin A-Thawra: ------ “Arab armies forced Palestinians to leave their homes.” On October 2, 1948, The London Economist wrote: --- “the most potent factor triggering the Arab flight were the announcements by the Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to evacuate… and that Arabs accepting Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades….” On June 8, 1951, the Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha told the Lebanese daily, Al Hoda: ---- “In 1948, the Arab leadership advised Arabs in Palestine to leave their homes temporarily.” “:Then we exploit them in executing crimes of murder in the service of Arab political purposes” Syria’s Prime Minister, Khaled al-Azam, admitted, in his 1973 memoirs: -----“We brought destruction upon the refugees, by calling on them to leave their homes.” On April 28, 1948, Sir Alan Cunningham, the last British High Commissioner in Palestine stated: --A total evacuation was urged by higher Arab quarters. John Troutbeck, Head of the British Middle East Office, in Cairo (June 1949): --- “The refugees know who their enemies are – their Arab brothers who persuaded them to leave their homes…” Ismayil Safwat, Commander-in–Chief of the Arab Liberation Army (March 23,1948): ---- “The Jews have not attacked any Arab village, unless attacked first.” The Commander-in-Chief of the Arab Liberation Army, Fawzi el-Kaukji, a notorious Nazi collaborator, in August, 1947 threatened: ---“Should the UN vote the wrong way, we will initiate a total war… murder, wreck and ruin everything….” On Nov. 24, 1947, the Acting Chairman of the (Palestinian) Arab Higher Committee, Jamal Al-Husseini, threatened: ----“Palestine shall be consumed with fire and blood if the Jews get any part of it.” Abdul Rahman Azzam Pasha, the first Secretary General of the ArabLeague told the Egyptian daily Akhbar al Yom on October 11, 1947: --- “…This will be a war of extermination and momentous massacre, which will be spoken of like the Tartar massacres, or the Crusaders’ wars…. Each fighter deems death on behalf of Palestine as the shortest road to paradise….The war will be an opportunity for vast plunder… ” The Arab League orders exhorting the people to clear the way to the 7 Arab armies invading Israel Refer: Bulletin of The Research Group for European Migration Problems, 1957 ------ : “”SEEK A TEMPORARY REFUGE IN NEIBOURING COUNTRIES, later to return to their abodes and OBTAIN THEIR SHARE OF ABANDONED JEWISH PROPERTY.”” Emile Goury secretary of the Palestinian committee said in the Beirut telegraph ----- “”The refugees are the consequence of the Arab states opposing the Jews state.”” Broadcasted by the Cyprus-based Near East on April 3, 1949; -------“”The Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees’ flight from their homes.” The first US Ambassador to Israel, James McDonald's My Mission in Israel (published in 1951, pages 174-6) ----- “The refugees were on Arab leaders hands as a result of a war, which they had begun and lost |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 18 - 10:26 AM You are refusing to condemn open santisemitism and you are refusing to respond to what I am saying - while this goes on, all you are doing is hurling Israeli propaganda that has been dealth with over and over and over again, ad nauseum As Keith has demonstrated, that proves nothing Carry on soap-boxing and as far as I can make out, you are adding nothing to the topic - we have nothing to say to each other AS I said - until you condemn all antisemitism, you have nothing to say on behalf of the Jewish people You cannot pick and choose between friend's and opponent's antisemitism 1948 for ***** sake - people who weren't born then are being slaughtered now Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 10:09 AM "According to the Arab League general Safwat: Despite the fact that skirmishes and battles have begun, the Jews at this stage are still trying to contain the fighting to as narrow a sphere as possible in the hope that partition will be implemented and a Jewish government formed; they hope that if the fighting remains limited, the Arabs will acquiesce in the fait accompli. This can be seen from the fact that the Jews have not so far attacked Arab villages unless the inhabitants of those villages attacked them or provoked them first.[31]" Khalidi, Walid (1998). "Selected Documents on the 1948 Palestine War" (PDF). p. 70. Archived from the original (PDF) on 9 November 2013. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 10:07 AM "A 'wind of violence'[16] rapidly took hold of the country, foreboding civil war between the two communities.[17] Murders, reprisals, and counter-reprisals came fast on each other's heels, resulting in dozens of victims killed on both sides in the process. The impasse persisted as British forces did not intervene to put a stop to the escalating cycles of violence.[18][19][20][21] The first casualties after the adoption of Resolution 181(II) by the General Assembly were passengers on a Jewish bus driving on the Coastal Plain near Kfar Sirkin on 30 November. An eight-man gang from Jaffa ambushed the bus killing five and wounding others. Half an hour later they ambushed a second bus, southbound from Hadera, killing two more. Arab snipers attacked Jewish buses in Jerusalem and Haifa.[19] Irgun and Lehi followed their strategy of placing bombs in crowded markets and bus-stops.[22] As on 30 December, in Haifa, when members of Irgun, threw two bombs at a crowd of Arab workers who were queueing in front of a refinery, killing 6 of them and injuring 42. An angry crowd massacred 39 Jewish people in revenge, until British soldiers reestablished calm.[20][23] In reprisals, some soldiers from the strike force, Palmach and the Carmeli brigade, attacked the village of Balad ash-Sheikh and Hawassa. According to different historians, this attack led to between 21 and 70 deaths.[21] According to Benny Morris, much of the fighting in the first months of the war took place in and on the edges of the main towns, and was initiated by the Arabs. It included Arab snipers firing at Jewish houses, pedestrians, and traffic, as well as planting bombs and mines along urban and rural paths and roads.[24] From January onwards, operations became increasingly militarized. In all the mixed zones where both communities lived, particularly Jerusalem and Haifa, increasingly violent attacks, riots, reprisals and counter-reprisals followed each other. Isolated shootings evolved into all-out battles. Attacks against traffic, for instance, turned into ambushes as one bloody attack led to another. On 22 February 1948, supporters of Mohammad Amin al-Husayni organized, with the help of certain British deserters, three attacks against the Jewish community. Using car bombs aimed at the headquarters of the pro-Zionist Palestine Post newspaper, the Ben Yehuda St. market and the backyard of the Jewish Agency's offices, they killed 22, 53 and 13 Jewish people respectively, and injured hundreds.[25][26] In revenge, Lehi put a landmine on the railroad track in Rehovot on which a train from Cairo to Haifa was travelling, killing 28 British soldiers and injuring 35.[27] This would be copied on 31 March, close to Caesarea Maritima, which would lead to the death of forty people, injuring 60, who were, for the most part, Arab civilians.[28] Having recruited a few thousand volunteers, al-Husayni organized the blockade of the 100,000 Jewish residents of Jerusalem.[29] To counter this, the Yishuv authorities tried to supply the city with convoys of up to 100 armoured vehicles, but the operation became more and more impractical as the number of casualties in the relief convoys surged. By March, Al-Hussayni's tactic had paid off. Almost all of Haganah's armoured vehicles had been destroyed, the blockade was in full operation, and hundreds of Haganah members who had tried to bring supplies into the city were killed.[30] The situation for those who dwelt in the Jewish settlements in the highly isolated Negev and North of Galilee was even more critical. According to the Arab League general Safwat: Despite the fact that skirmishes and battles have begun, the Jews at this stage are still trying to contain the fighting to as narrow a sphere as possible in the hope that partition will be implemented and a Jewish government formed; they hope that if the fighting remains limited, the Arabs will acquiesce in the fait accompli. This can be seen from the fact that the Jews have not so far attacked Arab villages unless the inhabitants of those villages attacked them or provoked them first.[31] Although a certain level of doubt took hold among Yishuv supporters, their apparent defeats were due more to their wait-and-see policy than to weakness.[citation needed] David Ben-Gurion reorganized Haganah and made conscription obligatory. Every Jewish man and woman in the country had to receive military training." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 09:59 AM I have noted antisemitism here- but primarily on YOUR posts. YOU hold Israel to a set of standards that you do NOT apply to other nations, leading one to believe that you are a bigot. You have lost your right even to mention 1948 massacres and that will remain until you condemn the Muslims for the same activities you condemn Israel for. "Until than it is about politics, pure and simple" Obviously. If Israel had a far Left government, you would be happy with everything they do. Just look at your (lack of) reply to the Far Left Sinn Fein support of the Nazis. http://markhumphrys.com/sfira.nazis.html http://markhumphrys.com/sfira.nazis.docs.html#jews http://markhumphrys.com/sfira.nazis.html#holocaust |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 11 May 18 - 09:49 AM The only ethnic cleansing in the Middle east was of Jews from Arab countries and Jews from Judea and Samaria by Jordan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 18 - 09:41 AM Utter crap This as a war of ethnic cleansing You may wish to defend the politicians - I am concerned about the victims who play no part in the decisions Your "he hit me first sir" is infantile Unless you wish to argue like an adult go and talk to Keith You have lost your right even to mention Jews and that will remain until you condemn his antisemitism Until than it is about politics, pure and simple Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 May 18 - 09:38 AM No Jim. All wars produce refugees. After WW2 millions of refugees, the most ever, were accepted by the ruined Germany. At the same time, Israel took in 586 000 Jewish refugees at great expense to the Israeli government, and without any compensation from the Arab governments who had confiscated their possessions. Another 200 000 Jews found refuge in Europe. At the same time the Arab nations put all the Palestinian refugees into camps and kept them there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 09:33 AM Fine, JC- The DISPLACED 820,000 Jews from Arab nations settled by Israel offset the 640,000 Muslims NOT settled by the Arab nations. The Muslims OWE Israel for 180,000 refugees. Deal with THAT. And YOU brought up the 1948 massacres, but only noted ONE side. I guess the Muslim grenades being throw into Jewish homes just sort of slipped your mind, them being only Jews being killed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 18 - 09:15 AM "There are numerous eyewitness accounts of the maiming and mutilation of victims." Sounds like a day in the death of Sabra Shatila Bruce, and after that one, the man found resposible (even by Israel" ws later elected Prime minister of that country This is pointless "my massacre is worse than your massacre" tit-for-tat For Christs sake - thsis is a war between the displacers and the displaced You prove nothing until you deaal with that Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 09:02 AM "There are numerous eyewitness accounts of the maiming and mutilation of victims. The catalogue of horrors includes the disembowelling of pregnant women, the slamming of babies' heads against brick walls, the cutting off of victims limbs and genitalia and the displaying of heads and corpses. While previous communal riots had been deadly, the scale and level of brutality during the Partition massacres was unprecedented. Although some scholars question the use of the term 'genocide' with respect to the Partition massacres, much of the violence was manifested with genocidal tendencies. It was designed to cleanse an existing generation and prevent its future reproduction." Talbot & Singh 2009, pp. 67–68 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 08:59 AM ", Jinnah proclaimed 16 August 1946 Direct Action Day, with the stated goal of peacefully highlighting the demand for a Muslim homeland in British India. However, on the morning of the 16th, armed Muslim gangs gathered at the Ochterlony Monument in Calcutta to hear Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy, the (Muslim League's Chief Minister of Bengal, who, in the words of historian Yasmin Khan, "if he did not explicitly incite violence certainly gave the crowd the impression that they could act with impunity, that neither the police nor the military would be called out and that the ministry would turn a blind eye to any action they unleashed in the city." That very evening, in Calcutta, Hindus were attacked by returning Muslim celebrants, who carried pamphlets distributed earlier which showed a clear connection between violence and the demand for Pakistan, and directly implicated the celebration of Direct Action Day with the outbreak of the cycle of violence that would later be called the "Great Calcutta Killing of August 1946". The next day, Hindus struck back and the violence continued for three days in which approximately 4,000 people died (according to official accounts), Hindus and Muslims in equal numbers. Although India had had outbreaks of religious violence between Hindus and Muslims before, the Calcutta killings were the first to display elements of "ethnic cleansing", in modern parlance. Violence was not confined to the public sphere, but homes were entered and destroyed and women and children were attacked" But again, JC will allow only discussion of Israel- the ONLY Jewish state. No other country is ever worth his discussion time. Seems like he has some sort of fixation of blaming Jews... No- one else EVER does anything wrong, or should ever be held accountable, EXCEPT THE JEWS, according to JC. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 11 May 18 - 08:49 AM "It is an applaalling crime against humanity to forbid refugees a return tho their countries for going to war" Yes- so how about the greater NUMBER OF JEWS DRIVEN OUT OF ARAB NATIONS IN 1948-1967? Or how about the Hindus driven out of Pakistan, or the Moslims driven out of India? "The partition displaced over 14 million people along religious lines, creating overwhelming refugee crises in the newly constituted dominions; there was large-scale violence, with estimates of loss of life accompanying or preceding the partition disputed and varying between several hundred thousand and two million. The violent nature of the partition created an atmosphere of hostility and suspicion between India and Pakistan that plagues their relationship to the present." But no Jews to blame, so JC is OK with it. The UK has a long history of leaving a mess behind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 18 - 08:23 AM "More the shame in that those very Arab nations created the refugees by making war Israel" Pity losers of wars weren't allowed to keep their homes after WW2 We'd all be owning second homes on the Banks of the Rhine What an appalling concept and one guaranteed to create entire nations of itinerants (which is, if afct happening today) It is an applaalling crime against humanity to forbid refugees a return tho their countries for going to war It really dows put you atrocity deniers where you need to be Thank you for your help Jim Caarroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 11 May 18 - 07:41 AM but the vast Arab nations refused to settle any of the Arabs More the shame in that those very Arab nations created the refugees by making war Israel in the first place. But, hey, when you've got a good scam going that lets you live high on the hog on the world's largess.............. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 May 18 - 07:26 AM No. Sorry if you "adults" are incapable of arguing against me. Your problem not mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 18 - 06:36 AM Please get off this thread and let the adults continue Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 May 18 - 05:27 AM So you have not read any of his books, and you have no reply to anything I have said. your refusal to discuss the points others offer Not true. State one thing I have refused to discuss. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 18 - 05:20 AM Keith your constant repetition of idiotic excuses (the silence of democratic countries - give us a break) coupled with your refusal to discuss the points others offer make you a permanent obstacle to intelligent discussion I can argue with people who disagree - I can't wwith people whose technique is to ignore and repeat like a Dalek You are like talking to Shirley Valentine's kitchen wall There - that's my ration - too much as it was Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 May 18 - 04:51 AM Jim, Why on earth should anybody wish to quote anything to you Keeith - what little you bother to read Which of his books have you read Jim. I read his Israel's Secret Wars when it came up previously here. I found that the Palestinian site you quoted on it lied about what he said. You had never read it at all. "One in three refugees world wide is Palestinian. the "about 6.5 million Palestinian refugees worldwide of whom more than 3.8 million Palestinian refugees and their descendants displaced in 1948 are registered for humanitarian assistance with the United Nations." The reason for that is shameful. In 1948 there were Jewish and Arab refugees, but far more Jewish than Arab. Israel settled all the Jewish ones on their tiny sliver of land, but the vast Arab nations refused to settle any of the Arabs, denying them citizenship rights and confining them to camps to the present day. That is why there are so many, mostly just descendants of the actual refugees. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 May 18 - 03:29 PM "I was talking about the West Bank, where ethnic cleansing ACTUALLY did take place under the Arabs from 1948 to 1967." So am I The Jewish leadership, even before the establishment of the state, made it clear that they didn't want to share the land with the Arabs - hence the hand-grenades thrown into Arab houses as the Brits steamed away from Palestine (as condemned by Einstein and his colleagues) All this is history (largely of how the now dead Empire carved up the area to suit themselves) My concern is for today's people, especially the "One in three refugees world wide is Palestinian. the "about 6.5 million Palestinian refugees worldwide of whom more than 3.8 million Palestinian refugees and their descendants displaced in 1948 are registered for humanitarian assistance with the United Nations." I have litle interest in the sins of Kings, Queens, Emperors and Empresses who left a large slice of our planet a fucked-up mess - Israel being only one example "Quote him why don't you?" Why on earth should anybody wish to quote anything to you Keeith - what little you bother to read you dismiss as "all lies" is it doesn't fit your pro-ethnic cleansing agenda (even articles published in the Jerusalem Post) Please let the adults get on with this argument and go and play somewhere Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 10 May 18 - 02:44 PM Eurovision and pizza! Definitely living in the land of milk and honey. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 10 May 18 - 02:42 PM PFR, "These pre-existing truce lines may or may not have served a purpose in their day, but conflict resolution should look to achieving compromise and agreement on mutually acceptable present and future needs ..." I AGREE. Israel has always said exactly this- ONLY the Palestinian side has demanded a reversion to the post-1948 lines, and refused to negotiate, BECAUSE they HAVE ethnically cleansed the West Bank from 1948 to 1967, they object to any Jews (Or Christians) returning to their homes there ( sound familiar- but if the Palestinians demand it, it is OK- Only Jewish refugees have no right of return according to JC.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 10 May 18 - 02:33 PM Bruce - For purpose of debate - I'll adopt the standpoint of youth and idealism [even though I'll be 60 later this year...???] These pre-existing truce lines may or may not have served a purpose in their day, but conflict resolution should look to achieving compromise and agreement on mutually acceptable present and future needs ... [written in a hurry as wife is yelling impatiently that the pizza's been delivered.. I'm away for 2 hours of Eurovivision semi final] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 10 May 18 - 02:30 PM How about we go back to the Mandate Palestine border of 1923? THAT can be all of Israel. The Arabs can keep the rest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 10 May 18 - 02:21 PM JC, I was talking about the West Bank, where ethnic cleansing ACTUALLY did take place under the Arabs from 1948 to 1967. You seem fine with that- YOU think it must be OK to cleanse Jews from places they have lived for thousands of years, Like Iran and the Arab League nations, so why not from the West Bank? For anyone who says: "many conflicts ever got resolved by dwelling on the distant past" TRY to remember that the PALESTINIANS are the ones demanding a reversion to 1948 borders - Pre-1967 means post-1948 war truce lines. So are those truce lines distant past that should be ignored, or iron-bound law? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 10 May 18 - 02:05 PM Another unbiased opinion then Bobad !! It's the legal opinion, based on International Law, of an academic with a PhD in International Law. If you can show it to be biased I welcome your critique. Here's another opinion from Eugene Kontorovich, a world renown expert on International Law: Palestine, Uti Possidetis Juris,And The Borders of Israel Eugene Kontorovich Bio Professor Eugene Kontorovich teaches at Northwestern University School of Law. He specializes in constitutional law, federal courts, and public international law. He is one of the world’s preeminent experts on universal jurisdiction and maritime piracy, as well as international law and the Israel-Arab conflict. Prof. Kontorovich has published over thirty major scholarly articles and book chapters in leading law reviews and peer-reviewed journals in the United States and Europe, including the American Journal of International Law, International Review of Law & Economics, Stanford Law Review, California Law Review, University of Pennsylvania Law Review, Virginia Law Review, and many more. His scholarship has been cited in leading foreign relations and international law cases in the U.S. federal courts and abroad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 May 18 - 01:49 PM Israeli Historian Benny Morris, who described the slaughter of Arabs and the massacres that were taking place in order to create an ethnically clean state from the very beginning Not true Jim. Quote him why don't you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 May 18 - 01:47 PM "No comment about the ACTUAL ethnically cleaning out of the Jews and PALESTINIAN Christians from the West bank from 1948 to 1967," Been there done that Bruce - so has Israeli Historian Benny Morris, who described the slaughter of Arabs and the massacres that were taking place in order to create an ethnically clean state from the very beginning You are not still pretending to support the Jewish People after having refused to comment on Keith's antisemitism and describing Israel's dealing with fascist states and and Nazi organisations (including's antisemite twinkle in the KKK's eye, Donald the Trumpeter) as "the lesser of two evils"? Some people have more face than Mount Rushmore Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 10 May 18 - 01:43 PM Just wondering how many conflicts ever got resolved by dwelling on the distant past and competing to apportion blame...????????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 10 May 18 - 01:37 PM Hey, JC No comment about the ACTUAL ethnically cleaning out of the Jews and PALESTINIAN Christians from the West bank from 1948 to 1967, when it was under Arab control as a conquered territory? Thought not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 May 18 - 01:29 PM Israel wants to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians out of their seized homeland No they don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 May 18 - 01:01 PM "Iran rejects Israel's right to exists with or without its settlements," Israel wants to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians out of their seized homeland Reckon that makes the situation a stalemate then Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 10 May 18 - 01:00 PM "According to Jacques Gauthier, an expert in international law." Pay him enough money and I am sure you can have the answer you want. Do lawyers have any morals? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 May 18 - 12:58 PM "Jacques Gauthier" Canadian Lawyer, connected to and quoted widely by the Israel Defense Network His life's work has been devoted to a thesis proving the legitimacy of the Jewish claim to Jerusalem under international law" Another unbiased opinion then Bobad !! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 May 18 - 12:55 PM David, Iran rejects Israel's right to exists with or without its settlements, so they are not relevant to this particular conflict. Iains, No relevance at all apart from a flagrant disregard for international law in both cases. Presumably the occupation of much of Cyprus by Turkey, Tibet by China, and Japanese islands by Russia are also in flagrant disregard for international law. Not sure about the occupation and settlement of Texas and California. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 May 18 - 12:43 PM "Since 77% of the land originally granted to the Jewish people for their homeland was taken away from them and given to Arabs and Gaza " Wonder why the Father of Israel, David Ben Gurion said: "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" "Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price." Before our pet atrocity denier denies that Ben Gurion said this, Ben Gurion said this in an it was from a ninterview he gave to Nahum Goldman a leading Zionist and the founder and longtime president of the World Jewish Congress. He also said "Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. A confession, if I ever saw one Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 10 May 18 - 12:38 PM According to Jacques Gauthier, an expert in international law, “The San Remo resolutions adopted by the Principal Allied Powers on April 25, 1920, established the territorial rights of the Jewish People under international law in respect to Palestine. The sovereignty entitlements granted by the historic San Remo Conference of 1920 remain in force to support the legal claims to the lands for the State of Israel and the Jewish People. Regardless of what may be negotiated by the parties involved in the territorial Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the starting point must be what is historically true in international law.” The Arab state of Trans-Jordan was established by the British government in 1921, within the boundaries of the Palestine Mandate that was originally allotted for the Jewish National Home, and the Council of the League of Nations approved the partition of Palestine in 1922. Gauthier says that Israel arguably relinquished its claim over areas of Palestine east of the Jordan River, when it signed a peace treaty with Jordan in 1994. But he points out that the remaining lands west of the Jordan River remain the property of the Jewish People under international law. http://www.cjnews.com/perspectives/forgotten-history-gained-san-remo See also Palestine, Uti Possidetis Juris and the Borders of Israel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 10 May 18 - 12:30 PM No relevance at all apart from a flagrant disregard for international law in both cases. But then, when has that ever dissuaded the Israeli government? They will get a shock when the rest of the world gets fed up with their contempt for the law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 10 May 18 - 12:29 PM Keith, the West Bank situation is extremely relevant when considering all conficts in this region. Israel's refusal to withdraw from the West Bank and dismantle the settlements is the very heart of the problem. And the very reason why Israel gets so little support from people such as me in a forum such as this. A peace based upon the pre-1967 borders would be very viable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 May 18 - 12:10 PM Iains, everyone knows that Israel has settlers on the West Bank. Is that all you meant by "dreams of territorial expansion?" It has held the West Bank for 51 years! The West Bank situation has no relevance to the conflict between Iran and Israel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 10 May 18 - 12:08 PM In case anyone else is as totally bemused by bobad's post as I am, I think what he is referring to is this (from Wikipedia): "In March 1921, the Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill visited Jerusalem and following a discussion with Emir Abdullah, it was agreed that the Jewish National Home objective for the proposed Palestinian Mandate territory would not apply to the Mandate territory east of the Jordan River. In accordance with that agreement, the Churchill White Paper of June 3, 1922, stated explicitly that "the terms of the [Balfour] Declaration referred to do not contemplate that Palestine as a whole should be converted into a Jewish National Home, but that such a Home should be founded 'in Palestine'." It was never intended that Transjordan should be part of Israel, not even by the British. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 10 May 18 - 11:41 AM For Keef. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170531-israeli-expansionist-colonial-settlements-are-and-always-have-been-illegal/ Interestingly Israel attacked first. I wonder how much prominence that will be given? "The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a UK-based monitoring group, confirmed that rockets were fired towards the occupied Golan. But it said the attack came after Israeli forces bombarded Baath, a town in the demilitarised zone." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 10 May 18 - 11:38 AM Since 77% of the land originally granted to the Jewish people for their homeland was taken away from them and given to Arabs and Gaza has also been given away by Israel I would say that Israel is shrinking and not expanding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 May 18 - 11:30 AM PLEASE DO NOT OPEN THIS IF FACTS OFFEND YOU Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 10 May 18 - 11:23 AM Israeli Expansionism ... An all out offensive on taking over Europe... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 May 18 - 11:14 AM Israel has already taken over the Golan heights in defiance of the UN It took some of it in the 1967 war to stop the Syrians using it to shell Israel. They have taken no more since so dreams of expansion is a ridiculous claim. The Syrian army was in full flight but Israel stopped anyway. They took much of Egypt at the same time, then gave it all back in exchange for peace. (Dreams of expansion?) Syria is still at war with Israel having never rescinded its declaration of war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 10 May 18 - 11:13 AM Military speak as opposed to normal people speak. Well worth studying in the world of today! https://www.globalresearch.ca/smart-weapons-systems-are-we-being-misguided-about-precision-strikes/5493560 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 10 May 18 - 11:00 AM Bobad I find it hard that anyone, including the most gullible of sycophants, attach any credence to claims of strikes and counter strikes. Ever since the The British Royal Naval Air Service (RNAS) undertook the first Entente strategic bombing missions on 22 September 1914 the true mission results have been obscured by the fog of war. In less polite circles this is simply termed lying(on an epic scale) To be honest would betray too much to too many in the way of strategic secrets. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 May 18 - 10:11 AM " so many educated, seemingly intelligent, folks" Even the "decent, democratic ones" AS I have been told many times stop feeding the animals Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 10 May 18 - 10:05 AM None of Iran’s rockets hit Israeli territory, four rockets were intercepted by the Iron Dome system and the rest landed on Syrian territory. Meanwhile Israel took out more than fifty Iranian targets. Iran will need more practice if it wants to wipe Israel off the map. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 10 May 18 - 09:59 AM Yes Iains. I don't always agree with you on here, but you are spot on regarding this one. Until all of the countries in the regions agree to respect the pre-1967 borders, the problems won't be solved. As far as Yemen is concerned, the Houthi have as much right to be considered the legitimate government as anybody, and more right than the Hadi regime, which is propped up by ISIS, al-Quaeda and Saudi Arabia with the connivance of the USA and the UK. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 10 May 18 - 09:18 AM That should of course be a degree in Geography, though history may well help! This rather compound her error! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 10 May 18 - 09:15 AM Israel has already taken over the Golan heights in defiance of the UN and I do not believe there are any stop signs on the border. Even our gullible PM with a degree in history from Oxford cannot understand how ridiculous her earlier statement was: "Theresa May today condemned Iran's attack on Israel after the first direct clashes between the two countries. Downing Street said Tel Aviv had 'every right to defend itself' after Tehran's forces fired 20 rockets from Syria into the Golan Heights. The PM also urged Russia to step in and ensure Syrian territory was not used for any more strikes. 'We condemn Iran's attack on Israel,' the spokesman said. 'Israel has every right to defend itself,' the premier's spokesman said." Daily Mail Israel attacks Syrian positions because Syria and her allies attack an illegal airbase on Syrian territory! and our ridiculous PM cannot work out how insane her statement is. What a shambolic incompetant ignorant piece of mendacity. Corbyn should force her to apologise for misleading the house. I would be calling for her resignation only Boris the buffoon is more of an idiot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 10 May 18 - 09:03 AM "Why would anyone believe anything so ludicrous." well... so many educated, seemingly intelligent, folks believe in such beyond ludicrous ideas as gods and astrology.. .. so anything is possible...!!!??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 May 18 - 08:48 AM I think Israel realises time is limited for her dreams of territorial expansion Huh? You think it wants to expand into Syria or Lebanon? Why would anyone believe anything so ludicrous. It only kept the Golan because Syria had always used it to rain shells onto Israeli farms and kibbutzes. Iran is operating in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Yemen, and "has repeatedly called for an end to the existence of the Jewish state." (BBC) Israel is justified in defending itself, as our government stated today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 May 18 - 08:42 AM Personally, I find myself growingly indebted to Keith and Bobad's assistance in providing us with an example of Israel's contemptuous attitude towards other nations and their right to existence Beats anything you could pick up from the Media, especially as, like Myanmar, the world seems to be alloowing the extremists to get on with their extremism without having to worry about public opinion getting in the way Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 10 May 18 - 08:22 AM Bobad I guess history is not your strongest subject. Stay around long enough you may learn something. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 May 18 - 08:10 AM Still no original ideas then bobad? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 10 May 18 - 08:05 AM I think Israel realises time is limited for her dreams of territorial expansion and regional dominance I think Iran realises time is limited for her dreams of territorial expansion and regional dominance FIXED |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 10 May 18 - 06:41 AM I think Israel realises time is limited for her dreams of territorial expansion and regional dominance. The sun is setting on American empire, new powers are arising in the east. Russia and Europe are rising powers. Trumps denial of the Iran deal has opened a huge schism with Europe, the trade implications for EU companies subject to Trumps threatened Iranian embargo have yet to be realised and will turn the schism into a huge gulf. People forget that in the early 70's Iran was a dream ticket posting. When I lived in Singapore many of my colleagues had come from Iran and were reluctant to leave even to come to Singapore. How times do change! Think how much change another 50 years will bring. That is not to mention India. I have seen many Indians as doctors, lawyers, shop owners etc. but have never seen one digging a hole in the road. Like the Chinese they value education highly and will be/are an economic force to be reckoned with. The geopolitical map will change dramatically and those changes are taking embryonic shape now. The population density, governance, economic pressure, religious rivalries, ethnic antagonisms and resource competition, increasing aridity and water wars make the middle east a powder keg with Israel being the touchpaper. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 May 18 - 06:38 AM This is becoming sabre rattling of the worst kind being advocated now Israel is backing Trump over Iran, as it always has done (you defend my atrocities- I'll defend yours). Suggesting Israel's actions are in any way altruistic or in support of peace is nonsense Israel's behaviour is every bit as likely to end up in a nuclear weapon competition as is that of Iran and far less dangerous that Isis, who appears to be on the wane. Isis doesn't have a nuclear facility, Iran at least agreed with Obama to negotiate on their control - Israel never has - the man who informed the world of their existence in the Middle East (an international hero) was abducted by Mossad agents in Rome and has been incarcerated for thirty two years (a large part of that time in solitary confinement) for telling the world what it needed to know. Israel is far more secretive about these weapons of mass destruction and far less likely than any other nuclear power to negotiate their control - bad enough for any State, but one driven by religious zealotry - deadly The world needs a holy war like it needs an international outbreak of Bubonic plague Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 May 18 - 06:20 AM Yup, David, is what I meant. Grr, Iains... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 May 18 - 06:19 AM Yup. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 10 May 18 - 06:18 AM Keith I notice you carefully omit to say who has a legal mandate to be present in the countries you mention and who are the illegal warmongers. Iran is legally aiding its allies, in Syria and the Yemen, all other participants are involved in an illegal war. No matter how many times you try to repaint the picture, the underlying reality, that I outline, is the correct one. By ignoring this fact like well indoctrinated little sheople you are sleepwalking into a bigger nightmare. If the wars had validity they would have UN sanction. They do not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 10 May 18 - 06:13 AM The Israeli airbase which was hit was of course in Syrian territory. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 May 18 - 06:08 AM In my more whimsical moments I start to ponder on things such as, when is Donald Trump going to play fair and be just as nasty to Israel as he is to Eye-ran, considering that Israel is about thirty years ahead of Eye-ran in possessing nuclear weapons that the world community says it is forbidden to possess... "But Steve," said the Israel apologists, smiling indulgently, " you don't understand..." So tell me why I don't! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 May 18 - 05:54 AM Run amok? Iran is doing a better impression of that. It is fighting for Assad in Syria and for the rebels in Yemen and active in Lebanon. It is building up forces against Israel inside Syria. (Anti-air and anti-tank weaponry is not needed to fight the Syrian rebels.) BBC today, "Iran is Israel's arch-foe and has repeatedly called for an end to the existence of the Jewish state. It is a key ally of Syria's president and has deployed hundreds of troops to the country. It says they are there as military advisers to the Syrian military. Thousands of militiamen armed, trained and financed by Iran have also been fighting alongside the Syrian army. While supporting Mr Assad, Iran has significantly increased its military presence in Syria - something Israel considers a direct threat. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has previously warned that Israel might go to war with Iran "sooner rather than later" to stop it attacking." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-44063022 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 10 May 18 - 05:37 AM Obviously not just the Palestinians hacked off with Israel. Netan the big yahoo has generated some real retaliation. Sadly Trump backtracking on the Iran deal is perceived as tacit agreement for Israel to run amok. Be nice to see a UN peacekeeping force take over Israel and smack a few politicion's heads. Otherwise Armageddon is likely coming to a town near you! https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201805101064305943-explosions-heard-border-sirens-active/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 May 18 - 04:59 AM "I see an Israeli airbase has been targeted overnight" The situation has been made even more dangerous by Trump's No-brain abandoning of the Iran disarmament deal. Two unstable regimes with religious leanings who are already in conflict realy do suggest that Dame Vera Lynn should be practicing her VOICE EXERCISES Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 10 May 18 - 04:40 AM I see an Israeli airbase has been targeted overnight. The Israeli response is multiple attacks on Syria. https://www.rt.com/news/426325-massive-attack-israel-syria/ This potentially is a very dangerous escalation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 May 18 - 04:38 AM Iran and Israel are exchanging blows across the Syrian border, but there is no cheese issue that I am aware of. Enjoy your little games. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 May 18 - 04:20 AM Unless Israel is now using Gorgonzola instead of White phosphorus on the Palestinians, that is! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 May 18 - 04:18 AM Can we take this elsewhere Iains (and cheese) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 10 May 18 - 04:17 AM They make some fabulous cheese in Tasmania these days though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 May 18 - 03:58 AM As I always comment when the conversation turns to coagulated dairy products. The further you get from Lancashire. The worse the cheese gets. :D tG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 10 May 18 - 03:57 AM No one wants to see any words or labels censored. But if they are used they need to have a justifiable context. Applying labels to posters simply because they have a counter view requires a demonstrable audit trail in order to justify the application. If a clear justification cannot be seen the derogatory labels should not be used. No one hurls the term paedophile around indiscriminately. Similarly any other inflammatory terms should be used carefully and only when it is abundantly clear that the usage is both apt and accurate. Accuracy of application in this case means it can be clearly seen, not that you think it can be seen. Be very clear you understand what was actually written, not what you think was written. If you refuse to acknowledge the validity of countering points of view be even more careful before attaching labels. Just be aware that perception of reality is governed as much by belief system as physical manifestation. The more blinkered the outlook, the more radical the view, the more extreme the language used. A dangerous trap that just invites a "robust" response if erroneous conclusions are drawn! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 10 May 18 - 03:50 AM Camembert is for wusses, get something really pungent in, like Stinking Bishop, Limburger, or Vieux Lille |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 May 18 - 03:23 AM " it is chained up in a lead box in the back yard." Hope you remember to feed it regularly Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 May 18 - 03:17 AM PFR - The Eurtovision one was moved because of an outbreak of guest trolls including ake who has been banned from down here. It is the only way to prevent them from infecting threads at the moment. I did ask for it to be moved so bon't blame the mods. I worked out that they would have to spend an inordinate amount of time monitoring the thread to remove the crap. Not worth it for such an inane subject. Steve - I am banned from keeping Camembert in the house. The only way Mrs G will allow it is chained up in a lead box in the back yard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 May 18 - 02:49 AM I apologise (again) to other posters that this dispute has spread to yet another thread - I half expected to find this one closed this morning This will be my last (general) word on the matter here, then I propose we take it elsewhere "Racism" It is impossible, in my opinion, to remove the term "racism" from any discussion about Israel as that, I believe is one of the main features of what is happening there at present - towards Palestinians by Israel, in the form of ethnic cleansing and vice versa, as Israel's use of the Jewish people as an excuse for their policies has led to an inevitable rise in antisemitism - the oldest form of racism/cultural hatred. Removing the term from these subjects would be like the old radio game where the competitors are forbidden to use the words "yes" or "no" (wonder how many are old enough to remember that one!) Far from banning the term, I honestly believe that racism should merit a thread of its own as it is becoming a common phenomenon, on this forum and in everyday life. "Travellers" I feel that if some of the ideas that have been raised here persist, "Travellers" will become as taboo a subject as has "Ewan MacColl" and "folk song" definition, which is utterly ridiculous on a forum whose raison d'être is folk and traditional arts The Travelling People and the folk arts are inseparable and running the risk of distasteful arguments such as this every time they are mentioned is out of the question. This particular row sprang to life when I mentioned the killing of a Traveller on the now closed thread about violence and gun crime - it should never have done so and would not have done if my bringing the killing had been accepted as I intended it to be. Discussions on Travellers and our treatment of other cultures and races must be subjects we can discuss without this unpleasantness (and maybe the now all-too-regular ugly-head-raising of ageism can be added to this while we're at it). I intend to open a thread on Travellers in the near future (if I can decide which section to do so) - I would hate that our animosities should infect the Folklore/music section "Thread closures" One of the other casualties of this dispute was the important discussion on how threads got closed - this surely deserves a perma-thread rather than a growing line of dead threads We all need to consider how we react to each other aand how we deal with our own and other posters reactions to views we don's agree with - and in the long run, how persistent over-the-line-steppers are dealt with If we don't, this section of Mudcat, or the forum itself, can serve no useful purpose Now - can we move back to the subject of this thread please ? If anybody has any more to say about these topics, can I suggest that they open a thread on them or PM what they have to say. Again, I apologise for my part in this - I do not exclude my own behaviour from any of this Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 May 18 - 07:32 PM Anyone else ever felt the effect of trying to piss into a strong wind...? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 May 18 - 07:30 PM Agreed, pfr. As the only mods I know about are yanks, this has the makings of a major international incident. These people know not what they do. There will be sanctions, tariffs and Stones tour cancellations. They may argue that Eurovision is not music, but have they actually HEARD Bellowhead?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 09 May 18 - 07:25 PM I believe Joe requested words like racist were not used. You have repeatedly accused me of being a racist since Joe posted. Do you have shit for brains jimmie? or do you simply think you can do whatever you like here? You infect every thread you infest, just like a rather nasty antisocial rash. Even aids now has a cure but you..........????????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 May 18 - 07:21 PM Iains Not keeping score but - One posting from the last few postings you have made One posting Well little jimmie, serial gobshite, so stupid you cannot recognise your own failings, racist, bigoted, old fool, a thoroughly nasty piece of work, not the slightest idea of how to debate anything, Will you kindly fuck off with your arrogant ranting - it impresses nobody, Three more little jimmie, A crying shame you cannot apply the same skills to reading and understanding , numbskull, tiresome old hasbeens that just keeps coming back, and will not retire, acting like a rotweiler with rabies, stupid, acute stupidity, You are very good at trying to portray the little innocent that is hard done by and trying for the sympathy vote of poor little me. But you fool no one and introducing material from one thread to another is merely flamebaiting and is a technique you use frequently. Perhaps we might leave it there Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 May 18 - 07:18 PM Dijon my arse, Iains. Colman's squeezy bottle or nothing. Assorted capers my arse. Only the nonpareil for me and for the rest of the gastronomic in-crowd. And tap that barrel and grab two pint glasses. I promise to leave you a pint or three for tomorrow's breakfast (though I've been known to make rash promises like that before...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 May 18 - 07:03 PM "Jim you are so busy acting like a rotweiler with rabies you cannot see the obvious." I suggest you read through the the insulting postings you have made on this forum, which now exceed those of mine you have managed to dredge up from several years back "Out of your 23000 postings think how many more I could find" feel free to do so - you obviously worked at today's pathetic collection and have exceeded them in a couple of days I, and I am sure others, have become more than used to your serial abusive nature - we all abuse each other at times - you appear to have no control over your own abusive behavior as you are proving here You are a racist and you have chosen to target people I care about - that is what is what concerns me - what was it - the Travellers who gave us so much of our traditional songs and music are THIEVES AND RUBBISH SPREADERS - how is that not racist? I believe racism, sectarianism and hatred of minorities has no place on a public forum - especially when it is regarded as illegal outside the safety of the internet I would be obliged if, if you have nothing to say on the subject in hand, you take your apparently uncontrollable abuse and your racism elsewhere and let those who do get on with it - please Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 09 May 18 - 06:57 PM Btw.. Israel is through to the final... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 09 May 18 - 06:54 PM Now then Mr. Shaw! I still have one barrel in reserve. I will be forced to give you my troll in aspic recipe. It goes well with assorted capers served with a tad of Dijon mustard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 09 May 18 - 06:47 PM Stuff all this petty drama.. A far worse international crisis is unfolding... Why have yank mods kicked the Eurovision Song Contest Thread down here into the abyss of BS...!!!????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 May 18 - 06:29 PM Not worth it Iains not worth it Iains not worth it Iains not worth it Iains not worth it Iains not worth it Iains not worth it Iains not worth it Iains not worth it Iains not worth it Iains not worth it Iains not worth it Iains been there done it got the t-shirt not worth it Iains not worth it Iains been there done it got the t-shirt know what I mean know what I mean know what I mean innit innit innit same with you Jim same with you Jim same with you Jim let's play a tune...tune...tune... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 09 May 18 - 05:52 PM Jim you are so busy acting like a rotweiler with rabies you cannot see the obvious. You are so stupid you even post one of your own insults pretending I authored it. You call me a mental midget and then accuse me of talking down to you. This again demonstrates your acute stupidity. Do you seriously think anyone here really wants to wade through your copy and paste jobbies? You insult just about anyone that has the temerity to dispute your point of view. I too can copy and paste, and as I carefully pointed out, I just took a couple of your offerings from one thread over several days. Out of your 23000 postings think how many more I could find. But no one is interested, certainly not me. Why can you not present an argument without bullying, exaggeration and bluster? Why do you feel it necessary to use inflammatory terms like racist and anti-semite? How many people have to point out your shortcomings before you take notice? Do you actually understand what the words mean? You spend more time here complaining about other posters than you do saying anything useful. The sad thing is that all these shortcomings you accuse other people of, you are guilty of yourself. Do you ever proofread before you post? Do you consider what you have written. I suggest you look up the words troll, flame, exaggeration, lie,racist, antisemite and discover what they actually mean. You are very good at trying to portray the little innocent that is hard done by and trying for the sympathy vote of poor little me. But you fool no one and introducing material from one thread to another is merely flamebaiting and is a technique you use frequently. Try sorting out your own behaviour before having the audacity to criticise others. John 8.7 Luke 6:42 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 09 May 18 - 05:26 PM Why have mods booted the Eurovision thread down into the midst of all this madness...??????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 May 18 - 05:21 PM I'm getting depressed now. Great post, Dave. Did I ever tell you about the to-die-for Lubborn Creamery Camembert that Morrisons sell for £2.66? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 May 18 - 05:13 PM I reckon your last two postings measure up to about half of what you manage to have dredegd up of several years of mine -and each one of them if far mor insulting thna I have ever posted Silly, silly boy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 May 18 - 04:11 PM Is it a full moon or something in the water? We have people ranting and raving at each other down here and I am even attracting trolls with something as inane as Eurovision above the line :-( Just stop and think for a minute people. As Joe says, why take it all so seriously? We are a minority forum for a minority music genre. The issues we bring up may be serious but no one reads about them here. We are not going to change anyone's mind, let alone the world, by getting hot under the collar and hurling abuse about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 09 May 18 - 03:38 PM Copy and paste and the red paintbox. Wow! I am impressed. Two things simultaneously. A crying shame you cannot apply the same skills to reading and understanding. What does it take to penetrate that numbskull of yours jimmie? If you are going, just go! You will not be missed. You are like one of those tiresome old hasbeens that just keeps coming back, and will not retire. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 May 18 - 03:37 PM So you call him "little jimmie." That'll fix everything then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 09 May 18 - 03:29 PM I can hand out abuse, I can take abuse. But terms like racist have no place here. I dislike the term and all that it implies and if someone is going to bandy it about with zero justification they need to be publicly hung out to dry. I have invited little jimmie the ranter to justify his accusations several times but thus far silence. I take great exception to being labelled racist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 May 18 - 03:20 PM After a day's search you came up with THOSE THey wouldn't measure up to the contents of a couple of the hundreds of posting of yours I put up ( a fraction of what you actually posted) and you will not find a trace of anti Irish/Traveller/ageist contenbts in any of them You posted that much on the first thread you were involved in Thank you for making my point so well Pathetic Do you really not see the crass utter stupidity of beginning a posting accusing somebody of insulting with Well little jimmie you are a serial gobshite and pretend you have never handed out insults. Are you so stupid you cannot recognise your own failings. You are the racist, your are the bigoted old fool You are the one that hurls insults about like confetti You are the one blind to the fact you are a thoroughly nasty piece of worke and have not the slightest idea of how to debate anything. And before you act the little innocent again here is a sampling of your insults from just one section of one thread: Will you kindly fuck off with your arrogant ranting - it impresses nobody Obviousy not Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 09 May 18 - 03:06 PM Iains - if you and Jim can sort out your differences as well as expedient.. I'm keen on the two of you remaining, as I can learn from both of you... ..and if bob wasn't so tied up with K***, i'm optimistic enough to think me and him might find some common grounds...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 May 18 - 03:04 PM Knock it off please, Iains. You saw what happened when Jim did that yesterday. I've discovered that you are more than capable of civil discourse. That post does nothing except give you some kind of perverse satisfaction. It does diddly squat for anybody else here. Think about outcomes. And you haven't shouted at me for weeks so don't start now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 09 May 18 - 02:58 PM "The other reason I am considering not being here is I so longer think I am prepared to tolerate the racism that is allowed to be displayed - by Keith and by Iains The latter, a serial hurler of abuse from day one has now targeted Travellers and the Mods have refused to do anything about either this or his seria Why do you bring in items from other threads. Can you not read what was said in the thread you caused to close? Well little jimmie you are a serial gobshite and pretend you have never handed out insults. Are you so stupid you cannot recognise your own failings. You are the racist, your are the bigoted old fool You are the one that hurls insults about like confetti You are the one blind to the fact you are a thoroughly nasty piece of worke and have not the slightest idea of how to debate anything. And before you act the little innocent again here is a sampling of your insults from just one section of one thread: From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 26 Feb 17 - 02:57 PM Make up your fucking mind you mad fascist You really are the Full Monty as far as right wing extremism goes Jim Carroll From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 26 Feb 17 - 06:56 PM Try not to talk to people and remember you are a mental midget Iaians People with far more knowledge and experience have had their fingers burned on this forum by forgetting their place. You really are an obnoxiously smug bastard, aren't you - what a pity your contributions don't live up to your posturing - especially regarding your supporst for a mass murder and torturer. Christ - what a team - racists, fascists and moronic bullies who think they know more than anyone else after five minutes posting. From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 27 Feb 17 - 03:33 AM Will you kindly fuck off with your arrogant ranting - it impresses nobody You have always dismissed anything from the press that does not suit your extremist agenda - submarines, Bin Laden..... all "made up Carroll shit" You wre given links to article afte atricle about Bin Laden and it was all wrong as far as yoiu are concerned and here you are defending one of Britain's most popular bumwipes If you feel free to call someone a "loutish posturing liar" don't be surprised when they feel free to express their opinion of you You are a crude, brutish, ill-bred, ill mannered ignoramus who substitutes vitriolic abuse for argument in the hope of covering up your lack of knowledge Give it a rest and stop polluting this forum From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 28 Feb 17 - 05:32 AM "More misrepresentation and dissembling from one of the forum's best known and most widely exposed lying toerags." I'll take that as a noo then Piss off you pair of racist pricks From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 03 Mar 17 - 03:04 PM Piss of and go and persecute Muslim families that can't fight back - that seems to be what turns you on. Jim Carroll From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 04 Mar 17 - 03:53 AM "This perfectly illustrates the persistence and obsessiveness of Jew hating ideologue" You are a hypoctite as well as an anti-Semite and if you are serious about leaving let me wish you bon voyage with one of your own posts. Will you kindly fuck off with your arrogant ranting - it impresses nobody |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 May 18 - 10:44 AM how do you go about taking good selfies that knock about 40 years off. Steal someone elses? Bit like knocking off other peoples ideas and then passing them off as your own until someone else complains :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 09 May 18 - 10:39 AM Steve - I have a PM count of 36 in approx 15 years of mudcat membership... Half are my polite replies, where I usually mention I'm not fond of the PM system and prefer open transparent communications in public on the forum... Neither have I ever done any social networks because I am such a stubborn asocial recluse... Sorry, folks will have to look elsewhere for a conspiring crony... mind you... Tinder looks interesting.. so how do you go about taking good selfies that knock about 40 years off...!!!??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 May 18 - 10:25 AM Cronies?... Not once have pfr and I ever communicated in private, and I think Jim may have PMed me once, about six years ago.... with cronies like that, who needs distant acquaintances? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 09 May 18 - 10:02 AM bob - "cronies"... hah, that's a good 'un...!!!! To quote myself from the same post I just reminded someone else of... "Your usual gang may no doubt rally round in your defence and launch a vile co-ordinated counter attack..." Though in this instance, a comical counter attack... ..and to quote from another of my more recent posts... "...you 2 joined at the hip, or communicating by telepathy...!!!??? popping up together like whack-a-mole..." As if by magic, now up pops bob to the rescue of his little whack-a-mole buddy... BTW.. you can copy and use any of my posts you like, if it saves you the trouble and effort of original thought... ..after all even I'm doing it today.. Well... all that needs to be said to sly weasel, has been already said so many times before.. and he's never been adverse to endlessly reposting his same limited vocabulary garbage word for word from thread to thread... over and over again.............. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 May 18 - 09:15 AM Isn't it funny how the one person who repeatedly says that his arguments are not his own but those of people reported in the press is now advising others to make their own case. You couldn't make this stuff up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 May 18 - 09:15 AM I see it's a waste of time attempting to get Keith to behave decently, which makes my point I await to hear from the serious members Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 09 May 18 - 09:14 AM Why.. are you going to report me to the authorities, as if you were one of the despicable conformist cowards denouncing neighbours in WW2 Germany...????? Good one PFR.......I'll save it for the next time your cronies Carroll and Shaw threaten same. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 May 18 - 09:07 AM PFR, I do not report anything to the mods. You are behaving like Greg did. I doubt they needed anyone to tell them what he was doing. Jim, YOUR post was identified by Joe as killing the thread closed yesterday. It was a very long post. Screenfuls of text, but not one word was about the subject. It was all about another poster. We know what sort of stuff people post. We read it. We do not need you to produce vast compilations in an attemt to smear them. Whatever you think about people, just argue against them. Make your own case. (That of course is the problem. You can not.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 May 18 - 08:30 AM Sorry didn't finish It's totally unfair to land the Mods with these problems We cause the mess, we need to clean it up Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 May 18 - 08:28 AM I think that responding to Keith at his level is a waste of time and a recipe for thread closure There has to be a point where this forum ups its game and ostracises completely those whose behaviour damages it or it is pointless |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 09 May 18 - 08:27 AM DtG - Yes.. I agree.. He should be could shouldered.. but he hasn't the sense or self respect to take the hint and move on to pastures new... Anyway, as he seems to be such a fan of Dad's Army [or at least the song]... To paraphrase the immortal words of Lance Corporal Jack Jones ""He don't like it up 'im...!!!"" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 09 May 18 - 08:19 AM "From: punkfolkrocker - PM Date: 04 May 18 - 09:04 AM " See above... ah sod it, I'll just copy and paste because village idiots need it constantly spelled out for them.... Note the print in bold italics, then think deeply how two faced and vindictive you are... Which is how YOU make yourself look to anyone who reads your malicious nonsense from thread to threead..... "Keith - you are a complete waste of time and drain of energy. You are the most disruptive and despicable poster on mudcat. You are a total hypocrite who attacks and insults freely, yet a whining cry baby when your victims respond in kind. YOU pretend to be interested in debating issues merely to mask your over active propagating of thinly disguised hate speech. You have no real interest in jews, you merely use a fake sympathy for jewish people as a convenient vehicle for pursuing your hatred/fear of muslims..." If you are so disapproving of 'personal abuse' then stop dishing it out so frequently as if you feel you have total impunity...!!! YOU reap what YOU sow... As for your veiled threat about Greg... Why.. are you going to report me to the authorities, as if you were one of the despicable conformist cowards denouncing neighbours in WW2 Germany...????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 May 18 - 08:12 AM "Same old lies. " I totally agree with you Keith Every toime you are confronted with your behavior you deny it or blame some invented figure for having put you up to iy These things are archived and accessible to anybody - you have been presented with them over and over again - your reaction is the same every time As you said "same old lies" While you continue to behave as you do this section of the forum has no future Being told to ignore you is like being told to ignore a ripe fart Your presence pollutes these discussion and will continue to do so until you change your disrespectful attitude to the members of this forum or you are removed Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 May 18 - 08:00 AM Keith is an obstructive, obsessive extremist hate merchant Same old lies. Put up an extreme or hateful quote from me or shut up. (and something from currrent threads. Not your interpretation of something said in a particular context years ago.) My views are moderate and mainstream, and I do not do abuse. The problem is just that I challenge your prejudices and preconceptions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 May 18 - 07:32 AM To anybody interested " are you claiming that Corbyn is lying " This response (or lack of same) is one of the reasons I am now debating not being part of this forum any more Keith has been answered a hundred times - he is not interested in what others have to say - he now responds to nothing His technique of stonewalling discussion is holding these topics to ransom - it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion while he is around The other reason I am considering not being here is I so longer think I am prepared to tolerate the racism that is allowed to be displayed - by Keith and by Iains The latter, a serial hurler of abuse from day one has now targeted Travellers and the Mods have refused to do anything about either this or his serial abuse Travellers have played a major part in mmy life and, I believe, have been the major reason why we still have so many songs and tales still available to us - do I want to hang around people who writes them off as litter-spreading thieves - I most certainly do not - any more than I want to hang around with racist bigots who believe that all Pakistanis are culturally implanted perverts, or Irish children are hate filled brainwashed morons or Travellers (again) are a slaveowning community - or all the other filth that has been vomited out during my time here Iains is a racist serial bully and Keith is an obstructive, obsessive extremist hate merchant While they are around they pollute this forum We all need to sort out our act - a promising way this might have happened has just been closed - I see no chance of what I believe to be fatally wrong with this forum being tackled - not while some recent behaviour has fallen on deaf ears Sorry to have interrupted - I'll let you get back to Keith and Iains Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 09 May 18 - 06:51 AM "Sly Weasel knows this.. he knows we know he knows this..."A nybody who rejects all evidence, including that fromIsrael as “lies” is a screaming, raving bookburner For the sake of his mental health we really should let him rot in his own atrocity denying Jim I think these sort of insults about a person's mental health are totally unacceptable on this forum! Are you trying to shut yet another thread? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 May 18 - 05:29 AM Don't worry, PFR, everyone else can see that your contributions are to the point and lacking in any malice. I don't think that you are any more likely to be barred from the BS section than anyone else who has posted on this thread. Even those who insult the intelligence of others and maliciously twist meanings in order to win points to add joy to their otherwise humdrum existence. I would highly recommend talking through rather than at him though. It is less likely to result in your words rebounding in a form that you did not intend ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 May 18 - 04:36 AM David, Re JP article I do not agree that all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. I think that suggestion is ludicrous. Jim, are you claiming that Corbyn is lying when he says the complaints are not a smear, not an attack, but genuine and should be treated as such? He is contradicting all of you. I think he knows more about what is going on in his party than you lot do. I choose to believe him over you. Only a fool would not. PFR, just more personal abuse against me with no contribution whatsoever to the debate. Just like Greg. Remember what happened to him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 08 May 18 - 02:06 PM No Keith, it was what was published in the Times of Israel which was "just a survey". Now, as Jim asked you to, please address what was published in the Jerusalem Post in the link in his post of 7th May at 01:24PM. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 May 18 - 12:09 PM "Sly Weasel knows this.. he knows we know he knows this..."A nybody who rejects all evidence, including that fromIsrael as “lies” is a screaming, raving bookburner For the sake of his mental health we really should let him rot in his own atrocity denying Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 May 18 - 12:04 PM oops.. edit eff up - should be "intelligence of the mudcat community" I'll blame poor attention due to tiredness and thinking about food.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 May 18 - 12:01 PM Sly Weasel knows this.. he knows we know he knows this... but he continues to display absolutely no self respect, or respect for the mudcat intelligence of the community by persistently repeating the same pre-programmed pre-scripted drivel ad nauseum.......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 May 18 - 11:45 AM Corbyn is in the position of having to respond to these attacks in the best way he can while at the same time keeping his Jewish members happy - there can be no doubt whatever THAT THE ACCUSATIONS CAME FROM ISRAEL https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/08/israeli-diplomat-shai-masot-plotted-against-mps-set-up-political-groups-labour That's proof positive if nothing is Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 May 18 - 11:28 AM "Mr Gwynne was asked whether anti-Semitism was being used to attack Mr Corbyn." Andrew Gwynn "During this period he was also elected chair of Labour Friends of Israel" There goes that link again - coincidental, I'm sure !!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 May 18 - 11:10 AM you are the slyest weasel in the land of mudcat... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 May 18 - 11:01 AM Ask K***.. he knows all about that... I think you are wrong. I think it is perfectly reasonable to quote what they say. That is how they get their message across. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 May 18 - 10:49 AM .. and what sly weasel politicians say and write in public need not in any way represent their real beliefs motives... Ask K***.. he knows all about that... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 May 18 - 10:45 AM Steve - the unholy ghost of Maggie T still clings on guiding her acolytes... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 May 18 - 10:26 AM From the other thread, Mr Gwynne was asked whether anti-Semitism was being used to attack Mr Corbyn. He replied: “No, and Jeremy has made that very clear that the notion that these are smears against the Labour Party he does not accept that.” Mr Gwynne added: “It is perfectly acceptable for Labour MPs to call out anti-Semitism in our party and in our movement and it is incumbent on our party and on our movement to act and root it out.” He said people needed to “acknowledge that there is an issue of anti-Semitism on the left of British politics”. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 May 18 - 10:23 AM Jim, Piss off Keith Your refual to accept what's published in The Jerusalem Post It was just a survey Jim. They just reported it. Steve, Corbyn himself has denied that those people are doing what you accuse them of. He says their complaints are genuine, so why should anyone listen to a fanatical extremist like you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 May 18 - 10:12 AM "No Jim. It just published some survey findings." Piss off Keith Your refual to accept what's published in The Jerusalem Post makes you more extremist than the Israeli Regime itself - wouldn't have thought that possible, even for you You live and learn - "I'd have thought that anyone who calls a Jew a non-Jew on account of their political opinion is making a highly-antisemitic remark." #Bit more than that Steve The act of the State attempting to take away the cultural identity of anybody because they criticise the political actions of the Government is defined fascism often capitalized : Merriam-Webster definition often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 May 18 - 10:01 AM When I say "at least" I know that she won only two more anyway, honest...should have said Tories... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 May 18 - 09:59 AM I'd have thought that anyone who calls a Jew a non-Jew on account of their political opinion is making a highly-antisemitic remark. Labour's whole problem is with disaffected ex-Blairites opportunistically pouncing on this confected ruckus about antisemitism. They mistakenly think they can win the party back to their previous right-wing position from Corbyn and they're finding all this a very useful tool. They can't split away because they remember what happened to the disreputable SDP in the 80s, the mob who helped to hand the next two, at least, elections to Thatcher on a plate (OK, Kinnock was in that mix too...). If only people such as the horrid Louise Ellman, the lying Ruth Smeeth and the long-time disreputable, complacent and unreliable Margaret Hodge, who all showed up with perfect timing before the local elections to diss Corbyn, would realise that they are being used. I note that the horrible Alastair Campbell has now fervently joined the fray. Incidentally, Iains, "Until Israel learns that diplomacy is not at the end of a gun barrel then stability in the Middle East is non achievable. Every major power has had to negotiate with "terrorists", what makes the regional bully on the block so different?" Perfect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 May 18 - 09:27 AM No Jim. It just published some survey findings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 May 18 - 09:22 AM "Only extreme fanatics like you believe such ludicrous propaganda." TIMES of ISRAEL APPARENTLY DOES - MAYBE THEY ARE ANTISEMITES! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 May 18 - 09:07 AM Jim, The Labour Party have never had a serious problem with antisemitism No, but they do now (according to the leadership anyway.) "Deplorable though the Netanyahu government’s settlement policy is, the description by the usual pro-BDS suspects of Israel as “an apartheid state” is ludicrous........" Jeremy Beecham Labour, House of Lords Exactly Jim. Only extreme fanatics like you believe such ludicrous propaganda. The Labour party certainly does not. Who does? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 May 18 - 07:49 AM Sorry - two links didn't work in that posting - am reposting (if a forum fairy is available, please delete the above Jim Carroll "recommendations" An interesting contradiction is highlighted in a letter linked to Keith's link - a letter from a member of The House of Lords "Deplorable though the Netanyahu government’s settlement policy is, the description by the usual pro-BDS suspects of Israel as “an apartheid state” is ludicrous........" Jeremy Beecham Labour, House of Lords How does that statement fit in with THIS ? In the link, the writer says it is not antisemitic to criticise Israel How does THIS fit in? The term 'antisemitism' has been re-defined so many times that it is impossible to distinguish between critiscism of Israel and attacks on the Jewish People - Jews have been used as pawns to defend war crimes and atrocities and so have become targets of those appalled at Israeli behaviour - which may work out well for the Netanyahu regime, but the rise in genuine antisemitism it has unleashed puts the Jewish people in an extremely dangerous position, given the swing to the extreme right in Europe and America The latest definition no longer includes this clause: "Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.", which is proof positive that these re-definitions are to protect the Israeli Government - not the Jewish People The only workable definition is "Unfair critiscism of and attacks on the Jewish People" The only British politicians ever to have been guilty of that are The Tories, Mosely's British Union of Fascists (BUF) and extremist rightists like the NF and the BNP The Labour Party have never had a serious problem with antisemitism - attacks of the Jewish People are a manifestation of right-wing politics - not left Corbyn, as a responsible politician, has been forced to negotiate with Jewish members of the Labour Party thanks to Israeli infiltration which has been proved beyond dounbt by an admission by an Israeli agent (linked above) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 May 18 - 07:46 AM "recommendations" An interesting contradiction is highlighted in a letter linked to Keith's link - a letter from a member of The House of Lords "Deplorable though the Netanyahu government’s settlement policy is, the description by the usual pro-BDS suspects of Israel as “an apartheid state” is ludicrous........" Jeremy Beecham Labour, House of Lords How does that statement fit in with THIS ? In the link, the writer says it is not antisemitic to criticise Israel How does THIS fit in? The term 'antisemitism' has been re-defined so many times that it is impossible to distinguish between critiscism of Israel and attacks on the Jewish People - Jews have been used as pawns to defend war crimes and atrocities and so have become targets of those appalled at Israeli behaviour - which may work out well for the Netanyahu regime, but the rise in genuine antisemitism it has unleashed puts the Jewish people in an extremely dangerous position, given the swing to the extreme right in Europe and America The latest definition no longer includes this clause: "Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.", which is proof positive that these re-definitions are to protect the Israeli Government - not the Jewish People The only workable definition is "Unfair critiscism of and attacks on the Jewish People" The only British politicians ever to have been guilty of that are The Tories, Mosely's British Union of Fascists (BUF) and extremist rightists like the NF and the BNP The Labour Party have never had a serious problem with antisemitism - attacks of the Jewish People are a manifestation of right-wing politics - not left Corbyn, as a responsible politician, has been forced to negotiate with Jewish members of the Labour Party thanks to Israeli infiltration which has been proved beyond dounbt by an admission by an Israeli agent (linked above) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 May 18 - 05:18 AM Were those recommendations even accepted Dave? No mention of them here, https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/dec/12/antisemitism-definition-government-combat-hate-crime-jews-israel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 May 18 - 05:12 AM My statements have assumed those caveats. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 May 18 - 05:08 AM 25.We recommend that the IHRA definition, with our additional caveats, should be formally adopted by the UK Government, law enforcement agencies and all political parties, to assist them in determining whether or not an incident or discourse can be regarded as antisemitic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 May 18 - 05:02 AM Thanks for confirming my statement Dave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 May 18 - 04:49 AM From the UK Governments report on antisemitism A proposed amended definition 22.The Macpherson definition that, for recording purposes, a racist incident is one “perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person” is a good working definition, which provides a strong basis for investigation. As such, the perceptions of Jewish people—both collectively and individually, as an alleged victim—should be the starting point of any investigation into antisemitism. However, for an incident to be found to be antisemitic, or for a perpetrator to be prosecuted for a criminal offence that was motivated or aggravated by antisemitism, requires more than just the victim’s perception that it was antisemitic. It also requires evidence, and it requires that someone other than the victim makes an objective interpretation of that evidence. The difficulty of making such a determination in the face of conflicting interpretations underlines the importance of establishing an agreed definition of antisemitism. 23.It is clear that where criticism of the Israeli Government is concerned, context is vital. Israel is an ally of the UK Government and is generally regarded as a liberal democracy, in which the actions of the Government are openly debated and critiqued by its citizens. Campaigners for Palestinian rights have informed us that they would expect similar standards of conduct from the Israeli Government as they would demand from the UK Government. It is important that non-Israelis with knowledge and understanding of the region should not be excluded from criticising the Israeli Government, in common with the many citizens of Israel who are amongst its strongest critics, including human rights organisations in that country. 24.We broadly accept the IHRA definition, but propose two additional clarifications to ensure that freedom of speech is maintained in the context of discourse about Israel and Palestine, without allowing antisemitism to permeate any debate. The definition should include the following statements: It is not antisemitic to criticise the Government of Israel, without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent. It is not antisemitic to hold the Israeli Government to the same standards as other liberal democracies, or to take a particular interest in the Israeli Government’s policies or actions, without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent. 25.We recommend that the IHRA definition, with our additional caveats, should be formally adopted by the UK Government, law enforcement agencies and all political parties, to assist them in determining whether or not an incident or discourse can be regarded as antisemitic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 May 18 - 04:30 AM The UN doesn't seem to. All its liberal democracies do. At the present time they are mass-murdering Palestinians Of course they are not. That is an extreme view held only by the far Left. No liberal government or UK party believes such nonsense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 May 18 - 03:08 PM " but its not everybody's view." It's Israel's that nice Israeli justice minister and the Jeruaslem Post said so and Netenyahu calls those who disagree with his policy "non-Jews" or self loathing Jews... to attempt to rob anybody of their racial or cultural identity because they won't toe the party line is fascism by definition "Our government, police and all the main political parties including Labour do. The definition of antisemitism has been changed several times to suit Israeli terrorism, just as the wishes of the United Nations nave been vetoed by on state so Israel does not have to face their crimes - that is fascism too "No I didn't - you didn't make a point and I doubt if you ever will Your point on Israel has sidestepped every single argument that has been put up Israel is the most powerful state in the middle East with nuclear weapons to back them up - any threats to Israel are no more than empty gestures Israel is actually doing what others can only ever threaten to do At the present time they are mass-murdering Palestinians You have the figures of how many they have hilled down the years SINCE 2005, 23 OUT OF EVERY 24 CONFLICT DEATHS HAVE BEEN PALESTINIAN Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 07 May 18 - 02:31 PM The UN doesn't seem to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 May 18 - 02:29 PM Sorry, cross posting. David, Yes, there are people such as the IHRA who include anti-zionism in their definition of anti-semitism. Its a view, but its not everybody's view. All decent democracies do accept that definition. Our government, police and all the main political parties including Labour do. Apart from you, Steve, Jim and Dave, who else does not? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 May 18 - 02:25 PM Most democracies do. Our government police and all main political parties including Labour do. Apart from you, Steve, Jim and Dave, who else does not? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: robomatic Date: 07 May 18 - 02:25 PM (Taking a pause on the Stalin mini-thread since you talked past my point) Interesting article referenced above from JPost. It correlates to the anti-Semitic speech of Mahmoud Abbas (see above, my previous postings) which relate his and his fellow Palestinians' anti-Zionism to their anti-Semitism. It also relates to your constant references to Israel's 'regime' as if it were a banana republic and your constant use of the term 'you people'. The term in that article: 'earned the right to kill Jews' resonates from the Achille Lauro affair to the terrorism during the '68 Olympics to the Entebbe Affair to the spate of rocket attacks out of Gaza and the Iranian arming of the Hezbollah going on right now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 07 May 18 - 02:04 PM Yes, there are people such as the IHRA who include anti-zionism in their definition of anti-semitism. Its a view, but its not everybody's view. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 May 18 - 01:24 PM Eg Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel., JERUSALEM POST Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 May 18 - 01:18 PM "seeking to destroy the only Jewish state is regarded as anti-Semitic." So is blaming the Jews for the crimes of Israel You people do nothing but - so does Israel Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 May 18 - 12:51 PM Thanks Bobad. David, seeking to destroy the only Jewish state is regarded as anti-Semitic. You are not alone in not recognising anti-Semitism. Steve, Jim and Dave have all denied clear examples of it, e.g. the mural, Naz Shah's comments, etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 07 May 18 - 12:01 PM Whoever is claiming that Iran is financing Hamas is talking out of their backside. Hm..........who's talking out of their backside? GAZA (Reuters) - Hamas and Iran have patched up relations, the Palestinian militant group’s new leader in Gaza said on Monday, and Tehran is again its biggest backer after years of tension over the civil war in Syria. “Relations with Iran are excellent and Iran is the largest supporter of the Izz el-Deen al-Qassam Brigades with money and arms,” Yehya al-Sinwar, referring to Hamas’s armed wing, told reporters. Reuters |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 07 May 18 - 11:36 AM Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, and is financed from the Gulf States, notably Qatar. Whoever is claiming that Iran is financing Hamas is talking out of their backside. Bobad, even if they were calling for that it still would not be anti-semitic. It wouldn't be right, but it would be aimed at Israel, not Jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 May 18 - 11:07 AM "They have killed many Jews" SINCE 2005, 23 OUT OF EVERY 24 CONFLICT DEATHS HAVE BEEN PALESTINIAN Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 07 May 18 - 11:01 AM If they are calling for the replacement of Israel by a single secular state, or by two states divided according to the pre-1967 borders then it would not. Which is, of course, not what they are calling for. What they are calling for is the destruction of Israel by armed jihad and for it to be replaced by an Islamic state. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 May 18 - 10:28 AM David, Hamas is Sunni but is armed and financed by Shia Iran. They do not want any Jews in Palestine and call for the killing of all Jews everywhere. They have killed many Jews already in indiscriminate attacks on them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 07 May 18 - 09:15 AM Bobad, You are conflating again. If Hamas and Hezbollah were calling for the extermination of, or collective punishment for, Jews, then supporting them would be antisemitic. If they are calling for the replacement of Israel by a single secular state, or by two states divided according to the pre-1967 borders then it would not. And don't begin to conflate Hamas with Hezbollah, the former are Sunni, the latter Shia, and the Shia restrict the concept of Jihad to what they perceive as their local environs. Every major muslim terrorist organisation operating in the west is Sunni. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 May 18 - 04:34 AM By the way Robo If you are serious about discussing Stalin, the first thing to remember is that he was a despot who was not approved of by Western leaders as distinct from all those who were Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 May 18 - 04:07 AM "Your parroting of the Soviet line" If you rose your level of understanding above the "HORRIBLE HISTORIES" level you would be aware that that argument was not "the Soviet Line" - on the contrary... I'm just about coming to the end of my fourth book specifically on Stalin, (one of the others was a four volume work on "The Great Terror" period of Soviet history I don't support Stalin or his actions - I never have - but I do want to understand what went wrong with a dream to change the world and that brought massive changes for the better for those who attempted it - yet still failed and became corrupted repressive States Describing Stalin as a "killer" is stupidly facile and pointless - it is political rhetoric from a period when the world was fighting for control over people's minds - the word you used "pathetic" sums up the level of your discussion so far perfectly Whose line do you take on Stalin - Isaac Deucher's, Robert Conquest's, Simin Seabag Montifiori's, Leon Trotsky's, Stephen Kotkin's.... ? All these have produced large, detailed studies of Stalin and that period of history - all are critics and/or outright opponents of his policies - all come up with differing conclusions - and you want to discuss him on the "murderer of his people" level? Are you joking? If you have any argument with my quote (one that roughly corresponds generally with the views of all the authors I mentioned) - why not come up with an analysis of your own The slaughter of livestock and the destruction of crops by Kulaks in the middle of a famine is not "the Soviet line" - it is a fact of history - go read it up Stalin's handling of the famine was appalling - his wife Nadia committed suicide because of the guilt she felt about it Stalin didn't slaughter his people - he slaughtered the bureaucracy that opposed him - his people adored him because they had no idea what was going on Rather than 'The Great Terror' being Bolshevik' or 'Communist' it was the opposite - it was a policy that removed (exile or execute) the Bolsheviks and replaced them with mindless yes-men Despite all this, and despite the aftermath of a horrific World War over which of the European Royal families should own which bit of the world, a Civil War and another World War... what had been a backward and primitive Empire of uneducated and poverty-stricken serfs became a wealthy and powerful contender on the world stage in less that forty years Stalin was a murderous despot - he did not represent Marxism, Bolshevism or Communism - he represented himself and he helped kill off a dream of change and replacement with Western supported Putin, who, although regarded as "freeing Russia from the chains of communism" is now as bad as anything Stalinism ever turned up and 100% more dangerous a threat to the planet than the old Soviet Regime ever was - a true representative of what the modern world has now become. You want to discuss Stalin - do so on this level and stop throwing outdated meaningless slogans at me Why am I bothering discussing anything with somebody who hasn't the decency to condemn antisemitism when it come up and bites his arse, I ask myself? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: robomatic Date: 06 May 18 - 09:10 PM Oh, and 400 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: robomatic Date: 06 May 18 - 09:09 PM Jim, this is what you came up with just a month ago: "but the Soviets re-wrote history in addition to creating conditions which starved millions of Ukrainians in the 30s." The whole of that history has been re-written by both sides The Ukrainian famine came about by Collectivisation, which was a bungled attempt to feed a starving Soviet Union Stalin's ruthlessness was matched by that of the land-owning peasants (the Kulaks) who slaughtered their livestock and burned their crops rather than take pert in the scene (carefully missed out by many historians) No side came out of this affair with anything to be proud of. Your parroting of the Soviet line on that pathetic case of mass starvatioin beggars your current use of slanted links. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 May 18 - 07:22 PM "Your challenging of another poster regarding a government picking on its own citizens is quite ludicrous" I assume ou are talking about Keith? If you're not, you've lost me You seem to have a thing about ignoring what he actually said - isn't that quite ludicrous Are you suggesting I faked his post - if not, please explain how it does not mean his recommending that it's ok to sell riot equipment to a mass murderer when he is in the process of mass murdering his people? "compared to your championing of the Soviet system which systematically starved millions of Ukrainians. " You have displayed a spectacular ignorance both of the Soviet Union and what my opinions are on it Where have I ever Championed the murdering of the Ukrainian people? I won't wait for an answer because I have come to realise you don't go in for that sort of thing, but rather, throw about accusations which you refuse to substantiate Any nearer to understanding Keith's antisemitism yet or would you rather not answer on the grounds that you might incriminate yourself Why do you people bother to contribute to these discussions if you are not prepared to debate them honestly? You want to discuss he Soviet Union - fine the subject interests me, but please try to come up wit a little more than hastily scooped up Cold War propaganda - any moron can do that Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: robomatic Date: 06 May 18 - 05:55 PM Jim: Your challenging of another poster regarding a government picking on its own citizens is quite ludicrous compared to your championing of the Soviet system which systematically starved millions of Ukrainians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 06 May 18 - 05:11 PM Arms sales to Israel from UK, including parts for sniper rifles. http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/exclusive-uk-sells-more-500m-arms-israel-including-sniper-rifles-718473139 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 May 18 - 03:24 PM Jim - I'm off downstairs for a lovely cooked by me bank holiday beef curry, and 4 bottles of Rose [the wife's favourite - 1 for her, 3 for me..] I will try my best to stay off the internet tonight, and even go to the extent of barricading my computer room door. in case god or the devil tell me to do it... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 May 18 - 02:55 PM I think this pie is done PFK Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 May 18 - 02:45 PM "I will not rise to it." luckily then, we are discussing 'omnipotence' in the other thread about threads about you... crikey you're popular...!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 May 18 - 02:29 PM you 2 joined at the hip, or communicating by telepathy...!!!??? popping up together like whack-a-mole... None of us want this thread closed...???? Plenty of constructive mileage left in it.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 06 May 18 - 02:16 PM You are trolling this discussion. Yep, they'll get it closed and blame it on you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 May 18 - 02:07 PM Just more lying personal attacks on me then. I will not rise to it. You are trolling this discussion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 May 18 - 02:00 PM "Still nothing to say on the Israel/Gaza situation then." yeah... it's up shit creek...!!! Evil zealots on both sides wanting to keep the fight going on forever while 'you' sit at home lapping it all up... Muslims and Jews killing each other - extreme fundie xstians cheering them on and relishing it... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 May 18 - 01:54 PM "Both of you trying to make this about me again with your disgusting insinuations." Keith Your defence of Britain selling riot control equipment to Assad after you had been told of his mass murdering and torturing of his victims and at the time he was rounding up Arab Spring protesters, using British equipmnt prior to the Civil War You need to think through your attitude to humanity if you don't want these things to come back and bite your bum I really don't want to humiliate you but your obsessive behaviour makes it virtually impossible not to Jim Carroll Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror From: Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:15 PM Even liberal democracies have to deal with riots. Non-lethal crowd control techniques are preferrable to live rounds. If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water. It would not be such a crime to supply such things, compared to what Russia and China supplies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 May 18 - 01:45 PM Still nothing to say on the Israel/Gaza situation then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 May 18 - 01:43 PM we shall mock on the beaches, we shall mock on the landing grounds, we shall mock in the fields and in the streets, we shall mock in the hills; we shall never surrender to sly divisive hypocrites.... For we are a resilient bunch of mockers.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 May 18 - 01:10 PM Both of you trying to make this about me again with your disgusting insinuations. I will not rise to it. PFR, are you afraid to put my whole name in case I appear behind you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 May 18 - 11:20 AM "where would he have positioned himself on the issue of Jews in Germany," Anything the state says is ok, is ok by Keith After all - it is the law Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 May 18 - 11:01 AM I don't know how old K*** is.. But what side was he on in the 2nd world war...??? Ok.. here's a minor entertainment for a bank holiday... Let's pretend for sake of hypothetical debate we are in early 1940s Germany.... If I'd been a young German of military conscription age, or the age I am now, how problematic for me would my merely quarter Jewish ancestry have been...??? If K*** had just been himself at whatever age he is, where would he have positioned himself on the issue of Jews in Germany, and all over the rest of Europe...??? no harm in asking..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 May 18 - 10:44 AM “incendiary kites” The towel-head bastards – who the hell do they think they are resisting Israeli slaughter with drones – they’ll be using peashooters next !!! These demonstrators must go down in history among the bravest people in history, going against a nuclear facilitated power that has shown itself more than capable of slaughtering civilians and poorly armed resistors by the thousand – armed with little more than catapults up to now – forty Palestinians killed and 5,511 wounded without a single report of an Israeli being scratched, talk about David and Goliath! They have my admiration forever – mor power to their elbow. Surely it’s time for the West (“Keith’s decent democratic countries and all”) to stand up and call a halt to this butchery? All this certainly puts into perspective “the destruction of the State of Israel” if those threatening to do so can’t even get kites and drones in the air A reminder of the Israeli use of DRONES Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 May 18 - 10:08 AM "PFR, So still nothing to say on the Israel/Gaza situation. Just more personal stuff." Stop being such a complete Israel, you effin silly irritating Gaza...!!!! there you go.. I mentioned Israel and Gaza for you again... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 06 May 18 - 09:31 AM "And all of this is a distraction from the more serious issue in the middle east, which is the Sunni-Shia conflict, where the west has for some reason (maybe an oil-based reason) decided to side with the Sunni and, Israel has followed suit." In reality it is Iran that is the that is the reason for Israel to "cosy up" to Saudi. Iran is 95% Shia. It is not simply religion but the political affiliations that have resulted from the Shia/Shiite split. Israel has nuclear weapons and are terrified at the thought that another regional power may have had them. Until Israel learns that diplomacy is not at the end of a gun barrel then stability in the Middle East is non achievable. Every major power has had to negotiate with "terrorists", what makes the regional bully on the block so different? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 06 May 18 - 08:58 AM Israeli military aircraft struck a Hamas site in the northern Gaza Strip used as a launching pad for incendiary kites Saturday night, the military said Sunday. The army specifically noted Sunday that there was “no connection whatsoever” between the strike and a large blast rocked the central Gaza Strip on Saturday, killing at least six members of Hamas’s military wing, according to the terror group. The group (Islamic Jihad) said in a statement that the four died during “preparations,” without giving further details. Army Radio reported that the terrorists were killed while carrying explosives in an all-terrain vehicle, suggesting the blast may have been a “work accident.” AFP said they were riding a tuk tuk vehicle, or auto-rickshaw, which exploded a few hundred meters from the border with Israel. ToI |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 May 18 - 08:12 AM Jim, I do not believe Israel to be guilty of "state terrorism." That is an extreme view, so extreme it is not held by any liberal government or any UK political party. You demand to be allowed to post such extreme views but disallow more moderate views. If only one side is put it is not a discussion. You are being unreasonable and irrational Jim, so no change there. Israel has admitted hitting a Hamas position near the fence but denies causing the explosion in central Gaza that killed 6 fighters. Local people said it had been an accident. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 06 May 18 - 07:58 AM Nor is it anti-semitic to hold dialogue with Hamas, or Hezbollah, or to support some of their aims, if not their methods. Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist groups whose aim is the elimination of Israel as the national home of the Jewish people. To support them and their aim is anti-Semitic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 May 18 - 05:02 AM "Why do you object to anyone putting Israel's case?" Israel has the most powerful propaganda machine on the planet - so powerful that it is able to infiltrate the Labour party and get "Labour Friends of Israel" to launch a campaign to accuse labour of being an antisemitic party Your supporting Israel is no different than those who took up the Nazi cause during the war (the ones you defended for writing antisemitic poetry) That is not support; that's defending State terrorism The Palestinians have no such support apart from those organizing BDS - that is why I am happy to support it, just as I supported the Anti-Apartheid Movement There - that-s my ration of communication with you today used up Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 May 18 - 04:25 AM PFR, So still nothing to say on the Israel/Gaza situation. Just more personal stuff. Jim, No-one objects to you putting the Palestinian case. Why do you object to anyone putting Israel's case? In Gaza, far from the border, six Hamas fighters died in an explosion. Israel has denied involvement, but Hamas blames them. https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-israeli-palestinians/gaza-blast-kills-five-palestinians-cause-unclear-health-officials-idUKKBN1I60PF |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 May 18 - 04:18 AM "Nor is it anti-semitic to hold dialogue with Hamas, or Hezbollah, or to support some of their aims, if not their methods." I quite agree David - "terrorism" is a common feature of all wars, especially those that involve small nations fighting powerful forces The Imperial system was finally brought to its knees by acts of "terror" which later became nationally celebrated #ISRAEL CELEBRATES ACT of TERROR This particular "act of terror" was celebrated again in 2016. One man's "terrorist is another man's national hero (and quite often becomes a national leader in the newly liberated state. "I had not realised that Israel supported any Arab faction" AN EXAMPLE of Israel using a Muslim group to facilitate the butchery of up to 3,500 unarmed refugees - the largest single massacre of unarmed non combatants since the Holocaust Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 May 18 - 03:52 AM This is what I find so good about the Mudcat. I had not realised that Israel supported any Arab faction so I looked it up and learned something new :-) Thanks, David Carter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 06 May 18 - 03:39 AM You have to clearly decouple criticism of Israel from anti-semitism. And it seems that there are people on both sides who do not wish to do that. It is not anti-semitic to criticise Israel for its actions, or to propose a better solution to the political situation in the middle-east, whether it be a two state solution based upon the pre-1967 borders, or a single secular state. Nor is it anti-semitic to hold dialogue with Hamas, or Hezbollah, or to support some of their aims, if not their methods. It is anti-semitic to use the actions of Israel and an excuse to criticise Jews who may have nothing to do with that, or Jews as a bloc when some of them themselves are proposing different behaviour and solutions in the middle east. And all of this is a distraction from the more serious issue in the middle east, which is the Sunni-Shia conflict, where the west has for some reason (maybe an oil-based reason) decided to side with the Sunni and, Israel has followed suit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 May 18 - 02:48 AM No comment on Keith's antisemitism Bruce ? No case Bobad No case I think that fully establishes who the antisenites here - don't you? I won't mention the "no apology" or no withdrawal" bit - that's just evidence of no self respect from people who are prepared to behave as you do on a public forum Never ever accuse me, or anybody of lying again after this - or of being an antisemite The rest of your posting is a blustering exercise at face-saving - blatant inventions and distortions of what I believe and what I have said - you wil produce proof of none of it if I ask, so I won't bother Is there any chance that you might know somebody who can make a half- decent case on behalf of Israel - you certainly can't ? "You may not like my reply" On the contrary - I loved every word of it - it confirmed everything I believe - about you and about Israel Please keep it coming Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 05 May 18 - 11:05 PM "You have accused me again and now you have the evidence that I have not lied in front of you" No evidence that I see of what you claim. Just an arguement that YOU have not won, just made claims about. According to YOUR logic, the statements by the Palestinian leadership of of no value in determining what THEY believe- so how can songs by Facists possibly show what Keith or others here believe? "You have accused me of lying several times yet have yet to come up with a single example " I have, repeatedly- and am waiting on that donation. YOU may not have agreed- but then, YOU make statements all the time about what others believe and say that are YOUR opinion, and expect us to treat it as fact- So you may do the same for me, and consider it proven, if that will make you happy. Otherwise, admit you have been wrong in many of tyour statements of opinion, or at least provide some discussion beyond your declaration that it is factual. "So you accuse half the population of demanding a crime against humanity and the Israeli Government of responding to that demand" NO- I accuse 83% of the Palestinians of demanding a crime against humanity, and YOU supporting them in that crime. "I have never at any time supported any call for ethnic cleansing (show where I have)" OH?? When you call for the West Bank to be given to the Palestinians as a state ( and you have called for more than that!) when the vast majority ( posted in other threads- 83% of the Palestinians?) do NOT permit Jews to be allowed to settle in the Palestinian State ( as the were/are NOT allowed to settle in the 77% of Mandate Palestine that formed the ARAB PALESTINAN state of TransJordan in 1923). "Israel is blaming the Jews for what they are doing and many are taking their word for it." No.IMO, from your posts, YOU are the one blaming Israel, and not the specific individuals YOU claim are doing these things. "- what I have said is that the Israeli regime's Implicating the Jewish People in their crimes by hiding behind the accusation of "antisemitism" to excuse them is the cause of the sharp rise in antisemitism in the world today - Israel is blaming the Jews for what they are doing and many are taking their word for it." YES- YOU have said this. IMO, it is unsupported by the facts. YOU are lying or stating your opinion- which UNPROVEN is enough to label YOU as Anti-semitic. "I expect a reply to this one" You have a reply- but I doubt if you will agree to anything. You never do, unless you have twisted it to where no-one would recognize it compared to the original post. You may not like my reply- but it is one- and MY opinion is as valid ( and more so, when the facts I have previously posted are recalled) as yours. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 09:03 PM I expect a reply to this one Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 09:01 PM "No, JC. You are wrong. You make accusations based only on your own lies about others." The relevant postings have been put up several times - dated and in full over the last few weeks - you contributed to that thread Robomatic said he didn't understand it so I put it up again These are the postings again Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened? Keith was denying a family story I once heard of British MPs describing the news leaking from Germany of the exterminations as “Lies of whingeing Yids” - Keith denied the story as "illogical" - which was bad enough I went on to describe the fascist group formed by MPs, members of the House of Lords and British businessmen led by Archibald Maule Ramsey From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 16 Dec 10 - 11:22 AM I wrote “Try this for size http://www.rense.com/ufo6/nazisym.htm Quote from article about British wartime fascism “..... The Red Book is the membership list of the Right Club, a secret organisation founded in May 1939 by Captain Archibald Ramsay MP. Unlike the populist British Union of Fascists lead by the charismatic Sir Oswald Mosley, the Right Club was exclusive. Its members were aristocrats and Members of Parliament, academics, civil servants, clerics and rich dilettantes. Some of the men had distinguished themselves in the 1914-18 war and saw themselves as patriots. But they were also virulent racists who supported Hitler's treatment of Germany's Jewish population. Many were Nazi sympathisers. From King Edward VIII downwards, there was a widespread view that only a powerful Germany could hold back the threat of Bolshevism, and that Britain should be supporting Hitler, not preparing to attack him. ......But if the badge seems mildly comic now, the vehemence with which these establishment figures hated Jews was chilling. A "hymn" to the tune of "Land of Hope and Glory", entered in the book in Ramsay's handwriting and in a printed version for public distribution, reads: “ Hymn 1939 Land of dope and Jewry, Land that once was free, All the Jew boys praise thee While they plunder thee. Poorer still and poorer Grow the trueborn sons, Faster still and faster They're sent to feed the guns. Land of Jewish finance, Fooled by Jewish lies, In press and books and movies While our birthright dies. Longer still and longer Is the rope they get But, by the God of battles T'will serve to hang them yet. Keith responded Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened? From: Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:57 PM Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary! Keith later confirmed his opinion that the poem was an "unimportant silly song" Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened? From: Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:16 PM More dishonesty. I did not mention "Dad's Army" at all!! I merely offered an anti Fascist song to match your fascist one, making the point that finding a song is not evidence. I asked you, Robomatic and Bobad to acknowledge it - you and Bobad ignored my request - Robo claimed not to understand it. You have accused me of lying several times yet have yet to come up with a single example You have accused me again and now you have the evidence that I have not lied in front of you I don't expect either an apology nor a withdrawal of your accusation - you don't seem to go in for that sort of thing I await with some interest your reaction to Keith's antisemitism with some interest "Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity -" So you accuse half the population of demanding a crime against humanity and the Israeli Government of responding to that demand I have never at any time supported any call for ethnic cleansing (show where I have) - what I have said is that the Israeli regime's Implicating the Jewish People in their crimes by hiding behind the accusation of "antisemitism" to excuse them is the cause of the sharp rise in antisemitism in the world today - Israel is blaming the Jews for what they are doing and many are taking their word for it. Pease stop making things up - you really are not very good at it Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 05 May 18 - 08:07 PM No, JC. You are wrong. You make accusations based only on your own lies about others. Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity - that is what a significant number of the Palestinian People are openly calling for, and implemented when they had the West Bank- yet you have approved of that by your silence. ( using your logic on you- Only fair) YOU have supported genocide and ethnic cleansing |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 07:34 PM "Many in my family suffered tremendously at the hands of the Nazis, " I knew many holocaust survivors in my twenties (around fifteen years after their ordeal) - I nearly married into a family of holocaust survivors once until I fell out with one of them because she described the Israeli government as "a bunch of fascists" - I did not know as much about Israel then as I do now I can claim no family members as such (I'm happy to be able to say) If you consider antisemitism so important why are you not prepared to condemn someone who describes wartime poems demanding the extermination of Jews as unimportant and "silly" and compares them to the theme tune of a sit-com, "Dad's Army"? If Corbyn had done this you would be doing a victory dance - if I had done it, you would have claimed your donation to charity - you would be fully entitled to do so You can't divide antisemitism into that uttered by friends and that from your political opponents, as you appear to do The same goes for Bearded Bruce and Robomatic - you all know what Keith said - none of you will utter a word of criticism I have to say I'm not surprised - it confirms that none of this has anything to do with defending the Jewish People - it is a defence of extremist right wing politics of the type that sent six million Jews to their deaths (alongside the "lefties" you despise). Far from defending the Jewish People you are defending the politics that sent six million of them to their deaths - cultural hatred extreme racism Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity - that is what a significant number the Israeli People are openly calling for, that is the policy that the Israeli regime is obliging them with If that's what you want, have the honesty to say so - you have lost your claim to be a defender of the Jewish People Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 05 May 18 - 04:29 PM "You mean like you and Bobad were when when he trivailised the situation if the six-million Jews about to go to their deaths in the Nazi extermination camps" Don't be a complete ass. Many in my family suffered tremendously at the hands of the Nazis, my own father was incarcerated in a concentration camp. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 05 May 18 - 04:05 PM "name your charity and I will repeat my offer of a generous donation" I did and you failed to even discuss the point I had brought up. It seems that YOU get to make the definitions, and they shift with each iteration. As for "You mean like you and Bobad were when when he trivailised the situation if the six-million Jews about to go to their deaths in the Nazi extermination camps" Never have trivialized that- Some realatives of mine were certainly in those camps- the entire Polish/Latvian/Russian sides of the family that had not left by 1927. "Bobad holds the record for longest postings by far with his six-pages worth of Islamophobic filth claiming Muslims have been musderous cultural degenerate since Roman times - all gleaned from extremist racist sites such as 'Muslim-Watch' and 'White Supremacist' If you would like me to link you to it, I'm think I can oblige - I'm sure you don't" Than you are wrong, as you seem to usually be when you decide what others are thinking. "The rest of your postings, especially the claim that nuclear facilitated Israel is fighting for its existence from attacks by poorly armed, poorly trained Third-World Arabs - has been dealt with ad-nausem" So NOW you claim that Israel would use nuclear weapons against poorly armed, poorly trained Third-World Arabs? RThey are fighting against a non-sysmetric threat to their civilian population. I think you would say that the Palestinians are as well, but would not want to tell YOU how to think. "Technological superiority usually is cancelled by more vulnerable infrastructure which can be targeted with devastating results. Destruction of multiple electric lines, roads or water supply systems in highly populated areas could have devastating effects on economy and morale, while the weaker side may not have these structures at all. f the inferior power is in an aggressive position, however, and/or turns to tactics prohibited by the laws of war (jus in bello), its success depends on the superior power's refraining from like tactics. For example, the law of land warfare prohibits the use of a flag of truce or clearly marked medical vehicles as cover for an attack or ambush, but an asymmetric combatant using this prohibited tactic to its advantage depends on the superior power's obedience to the corresponding law. Similarly, laws of warfare prohibit combatants from using civilian settlements, populations or facilities as military bases, but when an inferior power uses this tactic, it depends on the premise that the superior power will respect the law that the other is violating, and will not attack that civilian target, or if they do the propaganda advantage will outweigh the material loss" NOTE"the law of land warfare prohibits the use of a flag of truce or clearly marked medical vehicles as cover for an attack or ambush, Similarly, laws of warfare prohibit combatants from using civilian settlements, populations or facilities as military bases, " All done- documented in many past posts - by the Palestinians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 May 18 - 03:35 PM bob - I won't argue with that.. respect from an agnostic merely a few percent away from full blown atheism... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 05 May 18 - 02:49 PM So now you tell me you are Catholic.. I did not say I am Catholic, what I said is that I attended Catholic school. There are some things one grows out of. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 May 18 - 02:31 PM Bob - I only ever see what you write in the few BS threads that take my interest... For some time you certainly had me treading carefully in case I offended your Jewish sensitivities... Let's just say you might have 'inadvertently' written in a tone that suggested you were Jewish...??? It reached the point where, a few threads ago, I stuck my neck out and bluntly asked you to clarify that.. So now you tell me you are Catholic.. Ok, I will regard that disclosure with appropriate respect.... "I don't know what's happened to you, you used to be mildly entertaining but you've become bitter and angry with your passive/aggressive postings. I surmise it's the influence of the crowd you've chosen to associate with, you're not the first to have had it happen." I'm no sap for peer pressure.. ever since I was a teenage punk rocker who refused to accept the norms and restraints of being a punk rocker... That's the laid back South West individualist vibe I grew up with... ooh.. Luckily I only press 'enter' with a sardonic wry smile... if only I didn't have to be so self restrained and cautious in what I post... It's a pain in the arse constantly remaining in 'tactful' mode... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 01:54 PM Incidentally "Great propaganda piece, JC. But WAY too long-" Bobad holds the record for longest postings by far with his six-pages worth of Islamophobic filth claiming Muslims have been musderous cultural degenerate since Roman times - all gleaned from extremist racist sites such as 'Muslim-Watch' and 'White Supremacist' If you would like me to link you to it, I'm think I can oblige - I'm sure you don't The rest of your postings, especially the claim that nuclear facilitated Israel is fighting for its existence from attacks by poorly armed, poorly trained Third-World Arabs - has been dealt with ad-nausem Do me the courtesy of actually reading what I put up before you accuse me of having nothing to offer other than personal abuse You really do dig yourself some holes with your "perrsonal abuse, don't you? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 05 May 18 - 01:45 PM K**** and bob have been playing a long time sly game of writing 'as if' they might be, I don't know where you get that from PFR, I have never made any pretense to being Jewish, on the contrary I have mentioned on more than one occasion that I am not and have even mentioned my having attended Catholic school. I don't know what's happened to you, you used to be mildly entertaining but you've become bitter and angry with your passive/aggressive postings. I surmise it's the influence of the crowd you've chosen to associate with, you're not the first to have had it happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 01:45 PM "with nothing but support for his personnel attacks? " Would you like to put the actual documented amount you have put into this argument next to mine Similarly, would you lime to list my personal abuse next to the amount I have received from you and your supporters In both cases, as with your accusations of "Jew hater" and "antisemite, name your charity and I will repeat my offer of a generous donation To say have nothing to offer but personal abuse is a blatant lie, but you are free to not only prove me wrong and make a few quid for you favourite cat's him or whatever. Your statement is a fine example of dishonest personal abuse, and it is not very bright to accuse someone of personal abuse by personally abusing them Did nobody ever tell you that? Ready - steady - go "Jim Carrol's pretence at being their friend and protector" You mean like you and Bobad were when when he trivailised the situation if the six-million Jews about to go to their deaths in the Nazi extermination camps as with the above, I think you're on a bit of a non-starter on that one too Thank you for that PFR - the cheque's in the post "most noticeable foibles" - how dare you - expect a visit from my big brother ! Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 May 18 - 12:24 PM Bruce - simple answer, Jim is more than just his views on Israel....!!!!! He is an inspirational champion and archivist for his speciality in British folk music, a fiercely old school socialist internationalist, with an acute understanding of domestic UK politics, which is a 'bias' I identify with more than the far right... and a sprightly entertaining writer... For all his most noticeable foibles, I like the bloke.. even when I disagree with him... K**** however is.............. Btw - I'm glad you are so upfront with your Jewish identity... It's so refreshing.. K**** and bob have been playing a long time sly game of writing 'as if' they might be, only in order to trick readers into sympathising with their vicious arbitrary denouncements of anti semitism... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 05 May 18 - 12:10 PM PFR, "You are the kind of extremist I find most despicable, with your nasty strategy of "if you are not with us, you are against us"" Yet you tolerate that exact strategy from JC with nothing but support for his personnel attacks? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 05 May 18 - 12:08 PM PFR, Anyone reading - I only have 100% Jewish blood and gentetic heritage, but I suggest any mudcatters of any religious background should regard Jim Carrol's pretence at being their friend and protector with extreme caution.. He only seems to find problems in Israel, even when the problems are as great or greater elsewhere. As I have posted, I grew up across the street from a Palestinian family from Ramallah- of one of the founding 6 families Christian. I know Jewish families driven out of West Bank towns, as well, and from other Arab League nations. As long as JC blames ONLY the Israelis for the problems of that region, he is doomed to have no positive effect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 May 18 - 11:59 AM Bruce - friends can be over-rated, enemies stimulate the mind... and variety is the spice of life... I like the idea of people, and try to look for the best in individuals... a bit too idealistic I suppose...??? ============== Anyone reading - I only have quarter jewish blood and gentetic heritage, but I suggest any Jewish mudcatters should regard K***'s pretence at being their friend and protector with extreme caution... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 05 May 18 - 11:42 AM Great propaganda piece, JC. But WAY too long- I have been threatened with being banned for posting half that much. So now will you present what you WANT the Israelis to do? Roll over and let themselves be killed? I do NOT see any mention of the war crimes of the Palestinians. Perhaps a balanced picture would be useful in looking at the region? Or is it ONLY the Israelis that are supposed to go by your rules? How about the proven ethnic cleaning, from 1948 to 1967, of Jews and Christians from the West Bank?o THEY get to throw bombs and burning tires at the Palestinians? And if not, why not? Let us balance the 640,000 Palestinians driven out or fled from Israel in 1948 with the 820,000 JEWS ( NOT ISRAELIS) drives out of Arab League nations at that time. over half a million of them were settled in Israel. How many Palestinians were settled in Arab League ( the other side of the conflict ) nations. Not counting the concentration camps the ARABS put the Palestinians into, to keep them as a wedge against Israel. You state: "How dare you attack other contributors to this thread" HOW DARE YOU??? I see that you have attacked each and every person who has either posted something you disagree with, or refused to believe YOUR propaganda. NOT their comments, but the people themselves. PFR, You may choose your friends, but do not let them choose your enemies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 May 18 - 11:37 AM K**** - btw.. I suspect Joe only puts up with you because he is such a decent tolerant wise human being... Joe deserves respect - you never will.. ..and before you flail back like a petty resentful toddler ..yes, I expect I also get on his nerves, but I would hope not to the extent you do...!!!?????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 May 18 - 11:29 AM "What is your view? You have never actually expressed any view in this debate about anything." I thought you knew - you constantly make it up and express it for me.. Saves me the effort of putting my own words in my own mouth.. ..of course you always contrive to put the wrong words in my mouth, most often the exact opposite of what I actually say for myself...!!! I have expressed my ideas countless times in various threads over the years, and you persist in ignoring or distorting what I actually say... You are the kind of extremist I find most despicable, with your nasty strategy of "if you are not with us, you are against us" When I openly disagree, or ridicule your boneheaded bigoted presumptions, you retaliate with hysterical accusations of people like me are extreme left enemies of western democracy... What is worse, you insist your warped personal view of reality represents normal decent middle of the road values... Not just, 'laughable', but dementedly vindictive, and a pernicious threat to the well being of mudcat community ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 11:15 AM How dare you canvas others for their opinions? How dare you attack other contributors to this thread How dare you use Joe to attack another member You are not a moderator - you have no right to behave as you are Respond to the arguments Your "personal attacks are the direct result of your admitted antisemitism - personally, I would treat anybody who has made an attack on the Jewish people as you have, my grandmothetr took to the streets to oppose people who dismissed accusations that the Jews were being persecuted as nonsense, as you did " Tell us what you think please, IF YOU DO THINK" If you make insulting attacks like this on fellow members you deserve every personal attack you receive Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 May 18 - 10:23 AM PFR, Joe said this about Greg. "he was just trying very, very hard to be accepted by the "in crowd," even when he had no understanding of whatever was being discussed" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 May 18 - 10:18 AM PFR, Steve and Jim support BDS. What is your view? You have never actually expressed any view in this debate about anything. Just made personal attacks against Bobad, Bruce and me. Tell us what you think please, if you do think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 May 18 - 10:13 AM PFR, you have yet to make any serious point in this whole debate. Is saying that really an " outrageous attack" on your "reputation" ?? Laughable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 May 18 - 09:49 AM That was of course in response to K****'s outrageous attack on my reputation [yes.. even I've got one - found it half price in an end of year clearance blow out sale...]... His post may be a bit lost and disconnected from mine, up above Jim's big red ones... bob - swastika...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 May 18 - 09:39 AM This is like trying to hold a rational conversation with a nutter who stands all day in in the town square wearing a placard protesting... "Eating Red jam sandwiches will make you children communists...!!!" Everything this buffoon accuses me of is utter nonsense, just a delusional manifestation of his mangled thinking and prejudices... The main point I'll indulge him by addressing is: I have never been a supporter of Palestine, or given any reasonable cause to be suspected of such. This is just a claim made by a self preserving fool thrashing about for any package of paranoid right wing stereotypes of 'lefties' to discredit me with... The other insults are too ludicrous to even be bothered disputing.. I have more important things to do with my time, like going downstairs to get a mug of tea and biscuits and plot the downfall of western civilisation... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 09:32 AM Sorry - apologies for misjuging forum fairies Didn't go far enough up postings - please remove last posting Jim Carroll Amnesty International Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territories 2017/2018 Back to Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territories Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territories 2017/2018 June marked 50 years since Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian Territories and the start of the 11th year of its illegal blockade of the Gaza Strip, subjecting approximately 2 million inhabitants to collective punishment and a growing humanitarian crisis. The Israeli authorities intensified expansion of settlements and related infrastructure across the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and severely restricted the freedom of movement of Palestinians. Israeli forces unlawfully killed Palestinian civilians, including children, and unlawfully detained within Israel thousands of Palestinians from the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT), holding hundreds in administrative detention without charge or trial. Torture and other ill-treatment of detainees, including children, remained pervasive and was committed with impunity. Israel continued to demolish Palestinian homes in the West Bank and in Palestinian villages inside Israel, forcibly evicting residents. Conscientious objectors to military service were imprisoned. Thousands of African asylum-seekers were threatened with deportation. Background Israeli authorities intensified settlement expansion and land appropriation in the OPT. US and international efforts to revive negotiations failed, and Israeli-Palestinian relations remained tense. In January, Israeli authorities passed the so-called “regularization law” that retroactively legalized the settler takeover of thousands of hectares of privately owned Palestinian land and an estimated 4,500 settler homes. In addition, Israeli authorities announced and issued tenders for tens of thousands of new settlement units in East Jerusalem and across the rest of the West Bank. Palestinians carried out stabbings, car-rammings, shootings and other attacks against Israelis in the West Bank and in Israel. The attacks, mostly carried out by individuals unaffiliated to armed groups, killed 14 Israelis and one foreign national. Israeli forces killed 76 Palestinians and one foreign national. Some were unlawfully killed while posing no threat to life. In March, the UN Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia issued, then withdrew, a report determining Israel to be “guilty of the crime of apartheid” against Palestinians. In May, a UNESCO resolution reaffirmed the occupied status of East Jerusalem and criticized Israel’s conduct in the city. Following the killing of two Israeli policemen by Palestinians, in July Israel installed metal detectors to screen Muslim worshippers entering the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif. The new security measures led to heightened tensions and mass protests by Palestinians, including collective prayers, across the West Bank. The prayer protests, often met with excessive force, ended once the metal detectors were removed. In September, the Hamas de facto administration in Gaza and the “national consensus” government in the West Bank embarked on a reconciliation process, which was rejected by Israel. In December, US President Donald Trump recognized Jerusalem as Israel’s capital in violation of international law, sparking widespread protests across the OPT and globally. Freedom of movement – Gaza blockade and West Bank restrictions Israel’s illegal air, land and sea blockade of the Gaza Strip entered its 11th year, continuing the long-standing restrictions on the movement of people and goods into and from the area, collectively punishing Gaza’s entire population. Combined with Egypt’s almost total closure of the Rafah border crossing, and the West Bank authorities’ punitive measures, Israel’s blockade triggered a humanitarian crisis with electricity cuts reducing access to electricity from an average of eight hours per day down to as little as two to four hours, affecting clean water and sanitation and diminishing health service access, and rendering Gaza increasingly “unlivable” according to the UN. Gaza’s economy deteriorated further and post-conflict reconstruction of civilian infrastructure remained severely hindered; some 23,500 Palestinians remained displaced since the 2014 conflict. Many patients with life-threatening illnesses were unable to access treatment outside Gaza due to Israeli restrictions and delays by West Bank authorities in processing referrals. Israeli forces maintained a “buffer zone” inside Gaza’s border with Israel and used live ammunition against Palestinians who entered or approached it, wounding farmers working in the area. Israeli forces also fired at Palestinian fishermen in or near the “exclusion zone” along Gaza’s coastline, killing at least one and injuring others. In the West Bank, Israel maintained an array of military checkpoints, bypass roads and military and firing zones, restricting Palestinian access and travel. Israel established new checkpoints and barriers, especially in East Jerusalem. In response to Palestinian attacks on Israelis, the military authorities imposed collective punishment; they revoked the work permits of attackers’ family members and closed off villages and entire areas including Silwad, Deir Abu Mishal and Beit Surik. In Hebron, long-standing prohibitions limiting Palestinian presence, tightened in October 2015, remained in force. In Hebron’s Tel Rumeida neighbourhood, a “closed military zone”, Israeli forces subjected Palestinian residents to oppressive searches and prevented the entry of other Palestinians while allowing free movement for Israeli settlers. In May, Israel erected a new checkpoint and a new fence barrier within Hebron’s H2 area, arbitrarily confining the Palestinian Gheith neighbourhood and segregating a street alongside the area. Arbitrary arrests and detentions Israel detained or continued to imprison thousands of Palestinians from the OPT, mostly in prisons in Israel, in violation of international law. Many detainees’ families, particularly those in Gaza, were not permitted entry to Israel to visit their relatives. The authorities continued to substitute administrative detention for criminal prosecution, holding hundreds of Palestinians, including children, civil society leaders and NGO workers, without charge or trial under renewable orders, based on information withheld from detainees and their lawyers. More than 6,100 Palestinians, including 441 administrative detainees, were held in Israeli prisons at the end of the year. Israeli authorities also placed six Palestinian citizens of Israel under administrative detention. In April around 1,500 Palestinian prisoners and detainees launched a 41-day hunger-strike to demand better conditions, family visits, an end to solitary confinement and administrative detention, and access to education. The Israeli Prison Service punished hunger-striking detainees, using solitary confinement, fines, and denial of family visits. Palestinians from the West Bank charged with protest-related and other offences faced unfair military trials, while Israeli civilian courts trying Palestinians from East Jerusalem or the Gaza Strip issued harsh sentences even for minor offences. In April the Israeli High Court of Justice issued a decision to reduce excessive sentencing of Palestinians under the military judicial system and ordered that legislation be amended to apply shorter sentences as of May 2018. Despite the ruling, the sentences would remain harsher than those in the Israeli civilian judicial system. Khalida Jarrar, a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council and board member of the NGO Addameer, and Addameer staff member Salah Hammouri, remained in administrative detention at the end of the year. The trial of Mohammed al-Halabi, a Gaza-based humanitarian worker, began at Beer Sheva District Court on charges of embezzlement from the NGO World Vision to fund Hamas. Neither an Australian government review of World Vision Gaza nor an internal World Vision audit found any evidence to support the charges. Mohammed al-Halabi stated in court that he was tortured during interrogation and detention. Torture and other ill-treatment Israeli soldiers and police and Israel Security Agency officers subjected Palestinian detainees, including children, to torture and other ill-treatment with impunity, particularly during arrest and interrogation. Reported methods included beatings, slapping, painful shackling, sleep deprivation, use of stress positions and threats. No criminal investigations were opened into more than 1,000 complaints filed since 2001. Complaints of torture and other ill-treatment by the Israeli police against asylum-seekers and members of the Ethiopian community remained common. In December the Israeli High Court of Justice accepted the Attorney General’s decision not to open a criminal investigation into Asad Abu Ghosh’s torture claims despite credible evidence, thus condoning the continued use of stress positions and sleep deprivation against Palestinian detainees by Israeli interrogators. Unlawful killings Israeli soldiers, police and security guards killed at least 75 Palestinians from the OPT, including East Jerusalem, and five Palestinians with Israeli citizenship. Some of those killed were shot while attacking Israelis or suspected of intending an attack. Many, including children, were shot and unlawfully killed while posing no immediate threat to life. Some killings, such as that of Yacoub Abu al-Qi’an, shot in his car by police in Umm al-Hiran in January, appeared to have been extrajudicial executions. Excessive use of force Israeli forces, including undercover units, used excessive and sometimes lethal force when they used rubber-coated metal bullets and live ammunition against Palestinian protesters in the OPT, killing at least 20, and injuring thousands. Many protesters threw rocks or other projectiles but were posing no threat to the lives of well-protected Israeli soldiers when they were shot. In July, in response to the tensions over Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif, the authorities killed 10 Palestinians and injured more than 1,000 during the dispersal of demonstrations, and conducted at least two violent raids on al-Makassed hospital in East Jerusalem. In December, wheelchair user Ibrahim Abu Thuraya was shot in the head by an Israeli soldier as he was sitting with a group of protesters near the fence separating Gaza from Israel. Freedoms of expression, association and assembly The authorities used a range of measures, both in Israel and the OPT, to target human rights defenders who criticized Israel’s continuing occupation. In March the Knesset (parliament) passed an amendment to the Entry into Israel Law banning entry into Israel or the OPT to anyone supporting or working for an organization that has issued or promoted a call to boycott Israel or Israeli entities, including settlements. The authorities continued to obstruct human rights workers’ attempts to document the situation by denying them entry into the OPT, including the UN Special Rapporteur on the human rights situation in the OPT. An Amnesty International staff member was denied entry after he was questioned about the organization’s work on settlements. Using public order laws in East Jerusalem, and military orders in the rest of the West Bank, Israeli authorities prohibited and suppressed protests by Palestinians, and arrested and prosecuted protesters and human rights defenders. In July, the military trials of Palestinian human rights defenders Issa Amro and Farid al-Atrash began on charges related to their role in organizing peaceful protests against Israel’s settlement policies. Israeli authorities continued to harass other Hebron-based human rights activists, including Badi Dweik and Imad Abu Shamsiya, and failed to protect them from settler attacks. From May to August, the Israeli authorities detained prisoner of conscience and writer Ahmad Qatamesh under a three-month administrative detention order solely on account of his non-violent political activities and writing. Palestinian human rights NGOs, including Al-Haq, Al Mezan and Addameer, encountered increased levels of harassment by Israeli authorities. Israeli authorities initiated tax investigations against Omar Barghouti, a prominent advocate of the boycott, divestment and sanctions campaign, in what appeared to be an effort to silence his work. Several Israeli human rights organizations, including Breaking the Silence, Gisha, B’tselem and Amnesty International Israel were also targeted by government campaigns to undermine their work, and faced smears, stigmatization and threats. right to Housing – forced evictions and demolitions In the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, the Israeli authorities carried out a large number of demolitions of Palestinian property, including 423 homes and structures built without Israeli permits that remained virtually impossible for Palestinians to obtain, forcibly evicting more than 660 people. Many of these demolitions were in Bedouin and herding communities that the Israeli authorities planned to forcibly transfer. The authorities also collectively punished the families of Palestinians who had carried out attacks on Israelis, by demolishing or making uninhabitable their family homes, forcibly evicting approximately 50 people. Israeli authorities forcibly evicted eight members of the Shamasneh family from their home in Sheikh Jarrah, East Jerusalem, allowing Jewish settlers to move in. The authorities also demolished dozens of Palestinian homes inside Israel that they said were built without permits, including in Palestinian towns and villages in the Triangle, the Galilee, and in “unrecognized” Bedouin villages in the Negev/Naqab region. In January the Israeli police forcibly demolished the Bedouin village of Umm al-Hiran, to begin building a Jewish town in its place. The Knesset passed a law in April that raised the fines for building without permits, charging punitive costs for the demolition to those whose homes have been demolished, and limited recourse to the courts for those challenging demolition or eviction orders. In August, the authorities demolished al-Araqib village in the Negev/Naqab for the 116th time. Residents were ordered to compensate the state 362,000 new shekels (approximately USD100,000) for the cost of demolition and lawyers’ fees. Impunity More than three years after the end of the 2014 Gaza-Israel conflict, in which some 1,460 Palestinian civilians were killed, many in evidently unlawful attacks including war crimes, the authorities had previously indicted only three soldiers for looting and obstructing an investigation. In a rare move, in January an Israeli military court convicted Elor Azaria, a soldier whose apparent extrajudicial execution of a wounded Palestinian in Hebron was filmed, of manslaughter. His conviction and 18-month prison sentence, which was confirmed on appeal but reduced by four months by Israel’s military Chief of Staff in September, failed to reflect the gravity of the crime. Israeli authorities failed to investigate, or closed investigations into, cases of alleged unlawful killings of Palestinians by Israeli forces in both Israel and the OPT. The Prosecutor of the ICC continued her preliminary examination of alleged crimes under international law committed in the OPT since 13 June 2014. Violence against women and girls There were new reports of violence against women; Palestinian communities in Israel were particularly affected. In June, the Special Rapporteur on violence against women issued recommendations urging Israeli authorities to carry out law and policy reforms by integrating CEDAW standards; to combat and prevent violence against women in Israel and the OPT; and to investigate reported abuses. Deprivation of nationality On 6 August the Haifa District Court confirmed the citizenship revocation of Alaa Zayoud, who was stripped of his citizenship and rendered stateless by the Minister of the Interior following a conviction for attempted murder. An appeal against the decision was pending before the Supreme Court at the end of the year. The authorities also revoked the citizenship of dozens of Palestinian Bedouin residents of the Negev/Naqab region without process or appeal, leaving them as stateless residents. Refugees and asylum-seekers The authorities continued to deny asylum-seekers, more than 90% of whom were from Eritrea or Sudan, access to a fair or prompt refugee status determination process. More than 1,200 asylum-seekers were held at the Holot detention facility and at Saharonim Prison in the Negev/Naqab desert at the end of the year. According to activists, there were more than 35,000 asylum-seekers in Israel; 8,588 asylum claims remained pending. In December, the Knesset passed an amendment to the anti-infiltration law that would force asylum-seekers and refugees to accept relocation to countries in Africa or face imprisonment. Tens of thousands were at risk of deportation. Conscientious objectors At least six Israeli conscientious objectors to military service were imprisoned, including Tamar Zeevi, Atalia Ben-Abba, Noa Gur Golan, Hadas Tal, Mattan Helman and Ofir Averbukh. Israeli authorities recognized Tamar Zeevi as a conscientious objector and released her from conscription after she served a total of 100 days in prison. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 09:24 AM I've just put up an article counteracting Bobad's insistence on presenting Israeli propaganda - I don't know if it has been removed or I failed to send it It seems to me that, if Keith and Bobad are allowed to just repeat Israeli propaganda, I should be allowed to show why these demonstrations are taking place, otherwise there is no point in leaving this thread open This is supposed to be a discussion, not an opportunity to denigrate victims of a massacre I would be grateful for a response to this Try again 50 YEARS of ISRAELI OCCUPATION ABUSES Jim Carroll Jerusalem Home Demolitions Harm Children Paying the Price of Occupation Bill Van Esveld Senior Researcher, MENA, Children's Rights Division @billvanesveld Ashraf Fawaqa and his daughter Sima, 4, stand next to the rubble of their East Jerusalem home on May 15; Israeli authorities demolished the house on May 4 because they lacked a permit. Expand Ashraf Fawaqa and his daughter Saba, 4, stand next to the rubble of their East Jerusalem home on May 15; Israeli authorities demolished the house on May 4 because they lacked a permit. © 2017 Private Ashraf and Islam Fawaqa were at a hospital checkup for their month-old daughter, Aya, on May 4, when Ashraf got a phone call that Israeli forces were demolishing their home. Ashraf had built the house himself, six years ago, on land his family has owned for generations in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Sur Baher. Ashraf, a building contractor, works on projects for the Jerusalem municipality. But Ashraf, like many Palestinians in East Jerusalem, couldn’t obtain a building permit for his home. Israel has zoned only about 12 percent of the land there for Palestinian residential construction, and most of the zoned area is already overcrowded. The United Nations has estimated that 90,000 Palestinians in East Jerusalem live in homes without permits. By contrast, Israel has zoned 35 percent of the land in East Jerusalem for Jewish settlement construction. Municipal planning documents have had the stated goal of ensuring that Palestinians are a minority in the city. In 2011, Ashraf said he paid 60,000 shekels (US$17,000) in fines for having built his home without a permit. When he received the demolition order for the same reason, early in 2017, he paid a fine of 25,000 shekels ($7,000) to delay it so his family would still have a home when Islam gave birth. Members of the Fawaqa family sit in a tent on May 15; Israeli authorities demolished their home in East Jerusalem on May 4. Expand Members of the Fawaqa family sit in a tent on May 15; Israeli authorities demolished their home in East Jerusalem on May 4. © 2017 Private On May 4, his time ran out. At an emergency hearing that day, a Jerusalem district court judge found that the “freeze” of the demolition order had expired, and no more extensions were possible. The wrecking crew finished the job that same afternoon. Under Israeli law, Ashraf will have to pay a fine and fees to cover the cost of demolishing his home, a bill he estimates could run to 150,000 shekels (US$42,000). But what will be the cost to Aya, and her sisters Saba, 4, Rimas, 7, and Ritaj, 9? The mental health consequences of home demolitions for Palestinian children, one study found, include “somatic complaints, depression/anxiety, and higher rates of delusional, obsessive, compulsive and psychotic thoughts.” “Islam and the baby are both doing well,” Ashraf told Human Rights Watch last week, sounding for a moment like any other new father. “But it has been hard on all of us.” His older daughters now come home from school to a tent pitched beside the rubble of their house. On May 4, Israeli forces demolished nine other Palestinian buildings in East Jerusalem. In 2016, Israeli demolitions left 254 Palestinians homeless, around half of them children, in most cases because buildings lacked permits. The international law of occupation, which applies to East Jerusalem, prohibits the destruction of property except for reasons of military necessity. For decades, Israeli officials have violated these prohibitions with impunity. Families like the Fawaqas are paying the price. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 05 May 18 - 09:24 AM Just a boring parade of propaganda... The only propaganda I am aware of, and have shown it to be so, is that the protests are peaceful. Remember this quote from Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar: "We will take down the border and we will tear out their hearts from their bodies" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 May 18 - 09:15 AM Jim, You are putting only "the other side" That is true. And you are putting only put the Palestinian case. What is the problem? PFR, Pretending you are merely a neutral player engaging in academic debating game play does not absolve you of responsibility or guilt for your blatant reactionary bias, or fool any of us...!!!!!!!!!!! I do not claim to be neutral any more than you or Jim could. Reuters put Israel's case in their report I quoted yesterday. If a responsible and neutral news agency can put both sides why can't we on Mudcat? Your views on this are quite extreme. Few in the West agree with you. You must allow the other case to be put. You are welcome to challenge it, but not to say anyone who disagrees is a racist, fascist defenders of mass murder. Most people do disagree with you on this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 05 May 18 - 09:02 AM A Palestinian video aired on Al Jazeera over the weekend shows demonstrators at Friday’s Gaza border protests breaching the border and entering Israeli territory unchallenged. Around 15 people can be seen in the clip crossing over to the Israeli side of the security fence. The protesters are then seen running around, celebrating. One wearing a Guy Fawkes mask and brandishing a butcher’s knife jumps up and down while crying “Allahu Akbar.” After a short time the protesters are apparently spotted by Israeli troops, and can be seen running back into Gaza. VIDEO - ToI |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 08:47 AM "My posts are about what is happening in Gaza. " Your posts are 150% distortions of what is happening in Gaza from the point of view of the criminal If you had the slightest interest in Gaza (or the Jewish People as a whole for that matter) you would enter into honest debate rather than trawling up Goebbels-like propaganda You are every bit as inhuman as Keith, but at least he makes an effort (sort of) to back up what he is saying Anybody can simply repeat what the massive propaganda machine is turning out - that is simply trolling - not debate Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 May 18 - 08:46 AM "uncomfortable" Bob - Don't be so silly - you seem to think your perceived 'opponents' are delicate over sensitive flowers...??? Your daily bulletins of outrage are not significantly very different from each other in essence or purpose. Just a boring parade of propaganda... Looked up the history and meaning of the ancient swastika symbol for muslims yet...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 May 18 - 08:27 AM Joe & Jim - I watched episode 3 of "Story of the Jews" last night - that's my favourite so far.. Spinoza is a name I've not heard since History of Ideas module of my degree.. Scharma portrayed him as a very cool philosopher - my kind of bloke...!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 05 May 18 - 08:26 AM no need to get so hysterical posting every single scrap of daily 'news' footage to reinforce how much you disapprove of them.. This thread is about what is happening in Gaza. My posts are about what is happening in Gaza. If they make you uncomfortable you don't have to read them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 08:26 AM Fine by me if this is the way you want to go Bobad Jim Carroll 50 YEARS of ISRAELI OCCUPATION ABUSES And Jerusalem Home Demolitions Harm Children Paying the Price of Occupation Bill Van Esveld Senior Researcher, MENA, Children's Rights Division @billvanesveld Ashraf Fawaqa and his daughter Sima, 4, stand next to the rubble of their East Jerusalem home on May 15; Israeli authorities demolished the house on May 4 because they lacked a permit. Ashraf Fawaqa and his daughter Saba, 4, stand next to the rubble of their East Jerusalem home on May 15; Israeli authorities demolished the house on May 4 because they lacked a permit. © 2017 Private Ashraf and Islam Fawaqa were at a hospital checkup for their month-old daughter, Aya, on May 4, when Ashraf got a phone call that Israeli forces were demolishing their home. Ashraf had built the house himself, six years ago, on land his family has owned for generations in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Sur Baher. Ashraf, a building contractor, works on projects for the Jerusalem municipality. But Ashraf, like many Palestinians in East Jerusalem, couldn’t obtain a building permit for his home. Israel has zoned only about 12 percent of the land there for Palestinian residential construction, and most of the zoned area is already overcrowded. The United Nations has estimated that 90,000 Palestinians in East Jerusalem live in homes without permits. By contrast, Israel has zoned 35 percent of the land in East Jerusalem for Jewish settlement construction. Municipal planning documents have had the stated goal of ensuring that Palestinians are a minority in the city. In 2011, Ashraf said he paid 60,000 shekels (US$17,000) in fines for having built his home without a permit. When he received the demolition order for the same reason, early in 2017, he paid a fine of 25,000 shekels ($7,000) to delay it so his family would still have a home when Islam gave birth. Members of the Fawaqa family sit in a tent on May 15; Israeli authorities demolished their home in East Jerusalem on May 4. Expand Members of the Fawaqa family sit in a tent on May 15; Israeli authorities demolished their home in East Jerusalem on May 4. © 2017 Private On May 4, his time ran out. At an emergency hearing that day, a Jerusalem district court judge found that the “freeze” of the demolition order had expired, and no more extensions were possible. The wrecking crew finished the job that same afternoon. Under Israeli law, Ashraf will have to pay a fine and fees to cover the cost of demolishing his home, a bill he estimates could run to 150,000 shekels (US$42,000). But what will be the cost to Aya, and her sisters Saba, 4, Rimas, 7, and Ritaj, 9? The mental health consequences of home demolitions for Palestinian children, one study found, include “somatic complaints, depression/anxiety, and higher rates of delusional, obsessive, compulsive and psychotic thoughts.” “Islam and the baby are both doing well,” Ashraf told Human Rights Watch last week, sounding for a moment like any other new father. “But it has been hard on all of us.” His older daughters now come home from school to a tent pitched beside the rubble of their house. On May 4, Israeli forces demolished nine other Palestinian buildings in East Jerusalem. In 2016, Israeli demolitions left 254 Palestinians homeless, around half of them children, in most cases because buildings lacked permits. The international law of occupation, which applies to East Jerusalem, prohibits the destruction of property except for reasons of military necessity. For decades, Israeli officials have violated these prohibitions with impunity. Families like the Fawaqas are paying the price. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 May 18 - 08:23 AM "No. Just putting the other side of the story. Is that wrong?" Yes.. and you know it.. Stop playing the innocent... you've been doing the same sly thing so persistently and obviously for so long - it reeks... Pretending you are merely a neutral player engaging in academic debating game play does not absolve you of responsibility or guilt for your blatant reactionary bias, or fool any of us...!!!!!!!!!!! Who do you think is taken in by you out of the miniscule number of people who bother reading this crap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 05 May 18 - 08:02 AM Hamas-sponsored terrorists set the only cargo and fuel crossing ablaze. Kerem Shalom is the lifeline for 2 million of Gazans. Everyday Israel provides and sends hundreds of trucks laden with food, medical supplies, building materials, cooking gas and gasoline into Gaza. The Gaza side that was ransacked, is the receiving depot. When Hamas complains that Gaza is not getting fuel for its power station, remind them that last week 2,370 trucks trucks carrying 72,345 tons of humanitarian aid entered Gaza from Israel. The cargo consisted of 50,800 tons of building material, 8,020 tons of food, 1,597 fuel tanks and 1,486 tons of gas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 06:13 AM Yes Keith - Mass murderers and Fascists You are putting only "the other side" and ignoring the fact that so far over 40 unarmed protestors have been massacred and 1,700 wounded by live-fire rounds You pair are doing for the Israelis what David Irving did for the Nazis "Is that wrong" No it is evil and inhuman That's my ration of communication wth you - don'r expect more - my stomach is not up to conversations with you Jim Carroll From Haaretz "Gaza Doctors: Israeli Fire at Border Protests Causing Wounds Not Seen Since 2014 War ome 1,700 wounded within month - Doctors say wounds 'devastating,' most will result in disabilities W.H.O.: Lack of medical equipment endangering wounded Amira Hass Apr 22, 2018 9:12 AM Palestinian medics evacuate a wounded protester during clashes with Israeli forces on April 20, 2018, east of Khan Yunis, in the southern Gaza Strip during mass protests along the border of the Palestinian enclave, dubbed "The Great March of Return," which has the backing of Gaza's Islamist rulers Hamas. Photo Palestinian medics evacuate a wounded protester during clashes with Israeli forces on April 20, 2018.SAID KHATIB/AFP Killing of Gaza protesters undermines Israel's claims of self-defense Hamas blames Israel for hit on Palestinian engineer: The war has shifted abroad After international criticism, Israeli army investigating death of 15-year-old Gazan The live-fire wounds suffered by more than 1,700 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip over the past month have been unusually severe, Palestinian and foreign doctors say." https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/.premium-gaza-doctors-injuries-in-border-protests-worst-since-2014-war-1.6014013 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 May 18 - 05:40 AM You are making this thread a propaganda exercise for the mass murder of unarmed people No. Just putting the other side of the story. Is that wrong? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 May 18 - 05:27 AM Personally, I believe you are using the Jewish People top defend fascism and mass murder Really Jim? Defenders of mass murder? Fascists? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 04:45 AM "Remarkable firsthand footage" From an unknown source with an anonymous commentator You can denigrate the victims all you like, just as the Aparthied regime justified the slaughter of Sharpville and Sueto, but it alters not one iota the fact that the Israeli regime are carrying out yet another massacre of Palestinians - a human rights crime There is no justification for that, even if the Palestinians are fighting back, as they are fully entitled to do The nonsensical excuse of "defence" has been used throughout history by despots and mass-murdered - threats to wipe out Israel by a poorly-armed state with no standing army is comparable with the victim of bullying shaking their fist from a distance You are making this thread a propaganda exercise for the mass murder of unarmed people - please do not do so. If you have a rational argument for what is happening, put it up, otherwise, butt out, You are becoming a 'Joseph Goebbells' for the same type of actions that sent six million Jews to their deaths - that is no way to represent The Jewish People I asked for a discussion on what is happening in at this massacre - anybody can scoop up anonymous propaganda clips This is an eye-wtiness account from a survivor of a far larger massacre facilitated by Israel from Robert Fisk's 'The Great War for Civilisation' (p. 1022) - if you want to just swap pieces denigrating one side or the other, there are thirty pages on Sabra Shatila alone an 1,364 pages on the entire Israeli/Palestinian conflict You want to swap comparisons of animalistic behavior - how long have you got? From time to time, I noted, a few were taken away. They were put into Israeli army trucks or jeeps or Phalangist vehicles - for further ‘interro¬gation’. Nor did I doubt this. A few hundred metres away, up to 600 massacre victims of the Sabra and Chatila Palestinian refugee camps rotted in the sun, the stench of decomposition drifting over the prisoners and their captors alike. It was suffocatingly hot. Loren Jenkins of The Washington Post, Paul Eedle of Reuters and I had only got into the cells because the Israelis assumed - given our Western appearance - that we must have been members of Shin Beth. Many of the prisoners had their heads bowed. Arab prisoners usually adopted this pose of humiliation. But Israel’s Phal¬angist militiamen had been withdrawn from the camps, their slaughter over, and at least the Israeli army was now in charge. So what did these men have to fear? Looking back - and listening to Sana Sersawi today - I shudder now at our innocence. My notes of the time ... contain some ominous clues. We found a Lebanese employee of Reuters, Abdullah Mattar, among the prisoners and obtained his release, Paul leading him away with his arm around the man’s shoulders. ‘They take us away, one by one, for interroga¬tion,’ one of the prisoners muttered to me. ‘They are Haddad militiamen. Usually they bring the people back after interrogation, but not always. Sometimes the people do not return.’ Then an Israeli officer ordered me to leave. Why couldn’t the prisoners talk to me? I asked. ‘They can talk if they want,’ he replied. ‘But they have nothing to say.’ All the Israelis knew what had happened inside the camps. The smell of the corpses was now overpowering. Outside, a Phalangist jeep with the words ‘Military Police’ painted on it - if so exotic an institution could be associated with this gang of murderers - drove by. A few television crews had turned up. One filmed the Lebanese Christian militiamen outside the Cité Sportive. He also filmed a woman pleading to an Israeli army colonel called ‘Yahya’ for the release of her husband. The colonel has now been positively identified by The Independent. Today, he is a general in the Israeli army. Along the main road opposite the stadium there was a line of Israeli Merkava tanks, their crews sitting on the turrets, smoking, watching the men being led from the stadium in ones or twos, some being set free, others being led away by Shin Beth men or by Lebanese men in drab khaki overalls. All these soldiers knew what had happened inside the camps. How about behaving like a human being and defending the Jewish people properly, if that's what you are doing Personally, I believe you are using the Jewish People top defend fascism and mass murder Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 May 18 - 12:42 AM ..maybe you would like to discuss the history and meaning of the ancient swastika symbol for muslims...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 May 18 - 12:39 AM Bob - yes, we already gather you are not a fan of Palestinian rioters... no need to get so hysterical posting every single scrap of daily 'news' footage to reinforce how much you disapprove of them.. We get it... we really do... So where would you like to go with this obsession...???? Got any practical solutions, diplomatic or otherwise, you'd like to discuss...???? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 05 May 18 - 12:06 AM ONCE AGAIN, Palestinians rioting in Gaza paint swastikas on "fire kites" they use to send over the border and start fires on Israeli land. Nature, however, knows no race or nationality and harming the land hurts Israelis and Palestinians alike. These riots are not about justice or human rights, they are about a genocidal desire to murder Jews. The swastikas expose Hamas's true intentions. PHOTO PHOTO |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 04 May 18 - 11:16 PM Remarkable firsthand footage from Gaza put together by @Pierre Rehov exposing the violence of the Gaza border riots. https://vimeo.com/267378152?ref=em-share |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 18 - 09:02 PM I am not questioning the existance of a sovereign state - despite accusation, I never have I am questioning the actions of that state - ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity, yet that is the avowed aim of over half the Israeli population - do you condone that? Israel is committing acts of mass murder at this moment - are you surprised when, after those committing murder claim they are doing it on behalf of the Jewish People, the victims of these acts of terror pick up on the message and blame the Jews as well? Antisemitism is on the rise again and the main reason is that the Israelis are using the Jewish People as human shields When David Ben Gurion made his pragmatic statement about stealing Arab land he told it exactly as it was Here is the full Ben Gurion quote: - "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" He was human enough do demand that the Arabs should not be evicted, yet that is exactly what is happening It is little wonder that, despite the period of access to State documents by Israeli law has long been reached, many of Ben Gurion's papers have been withdrawn from public access The Arabs never trusted that they would be allowed to remain, with good reason - forcible evictions began as the British were leaving Palestine and they have continued since Of course the Jewish People have a right to their homeland - no other people have ever deserved a permanent home as they have, but not at the expense of the Arab's right to remain in territory they have occupied for millennia You have responded to nothing I have said - I didn't expect you to Bed calls G'night Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: robomatic Date: 04 May 18 - 08:33 PM Jim: I do not understand your last two posts. You seem to be confusing the issues that occur in Democratic societies with blanket condemnation of the existence of a sovereign state. May I remind you that the UK and the Republic of Ireland are full of similar stories about abuse of power and racial/ religious strife. That is the normal story of humans under self-rule. My previous post was about a damaging frame of reference based on pernicious lies about a people. I made a valid connection between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. Nothing you have posted since has any relevance to my point. I DO appreciate your links, which look interesting from an informative point of view. If you think my support of Israel's right to exist, and struggle to achieve that right, is a blanket endorsement of everyone that gets elected there and everything that is done in her name, you are making an assumption without evidence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 18 - 07:47 PM THESE FELLERS SEEM TO BE ON THE BALL Antisemitic or just "Self-HATING JEWS?" I wonder As with my "betting shop" request - the same goes for this one Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 18 - 07:31 PM "Abbas' anti-Semitism is no secret robo," Neither is yours Bobad Only an antisemite blames the Jewish People for the actions of a terrorist state# Robo Does none of you wasnt to comment on the fact that it is antisemitic to associate the actions of Israel with the Jewish People ot, like other attitudes you have displayed over insulting the Jewish People, you don't wish to comment on the grounds it might incriminate you? Item den in the European definition of antisemitism HOLDING JEWS COLLECTIVELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ACTIONS OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL. Can any of you tell me why ISRAEL IS NOT AN ANTISEMITIC STATE ? It is little wonder that others take up Israel's lead in blaming the Jews if Israel is doing so I'd be grateful that if you are going to, you could answer before the betting shop opens tomorrow - I'd love to put a bet on your not doing so I'd also be grateful if one of you would explaing this to Robo - he seems to have difficulty understanding things Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 04 May 18 - 05:37 PM Abbas' anti-Semitism is no secret robo, after all he wrote his thesis on holocaust denial, remember he is the one who pays his people to kill Jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 04 May 18 - 05:28 PM Dozens of Palestinians broke into the Gaza side of the Kerem Shalom border crossing between Israel and the Hamas-run Strip on Friday evening, setting fire to the gas pipeline that supplies fuel to the Strip, the army said. The IDF shared video of the Kerem Shalom incident, during which Palestinians broke into the Palestinian side of the crossing and damaged pipelines carrying gas and oil into Gaza, which already suffers from a large energy shortage. “This is a cynical act that harms the welfare of Gaza residents and the humanitarian efforts carried out by Israel and many other countries,” the army said. Times of Israel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: robomatic Date: 04 May 18 - 03:35 PM In the meantime over in Ramallah, Mahmoud Abbas, the 'President' of the Palestinian regime, has covered himself in opprobrium because of a 'long, rambling' speech he gave: The Palestinian leader’s long, rambling speech was laced with deeply anti-Semitic tropes, including that the Jews of Europe brought persecution and the Holocaust upon themselves because of usury, banking and their “social function.” Israel, he said, grew out of a European colonial project that had nothing to do with Jewish history or aspirations. And citing a widely discredited book from the 1970s by Arthur Koestler called “The Thirteenth Tribe,” he posited that Ashkenazi Jews were descended not from the biblical Israelites but from the Khazars, a Turkic people who converted to Judaism in the eighth century. This simply sheds light on the thinking behind much of Palestinian, and by extention, Muslim, prejudice against Jews. It colours and confuses the land and 'occupation' issues because it reinforces the argument that the Jews are not children themselves of the Middle East, but total interlopers. This underpins much of the anti-Israel sentiment in the Arab/ Muslim Mideast, and most definitely links anti-Semitism to anti-Zionism. Mahmoud Abbas after a week of criticism from Europeans and Americans, in the Christian part of the world, just came out with a lame statement of the nature of "if I have offended". But it casts light on the extremism held in the background of these supposedly 'freedom seeking' movements. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 18 - 03:02 PM "The rioters are damaging the pipes that carry fuel and gas from Israel into the Gaza Strip and are designated for the benefit of the Gaza Strip." As claimed by the same site that reported that 6 of first dead demonstrators were Hamas - within 4 hours of the killings "Stand by Us is an extremist Zionist site dedicated to providing propaganda for the Israeli regime The report later appeared in the Jerusalem Post The wording of some of this report is almost word-for word identical to a report made by an Israeli spokesman which appeared in The Guardian in 2009 -they must have filed the script Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 May 18 - 02:50 PM Bob - they sound like a stirred up undisciplined mob of fukwits.. Sad evidence of hateful old zealots indoctrinating new young impressionable not so well educated generations of hot headed kids... ... and on the other side of the divide, at least the same process is better organized and militarised.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 04 May 18 - 02:45 PM Today’s Gaza riots: Palestinians are setting fire to humanitarian aid crossing. The rioters are damaging the pipes that carry fuel and gas from Israel into the Gaza Strip and are designated for the benefit of the Gaza Strip. This is a cynical act of terror that harms the well being of the Gaza residents and the humanitarian efforts made by Israel and many other countries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 May 18 - 01:26 PM welcome to humanism... !!! that's progress.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 May 18 - 01:22 PM No, humanity is on a losing streak. (I do not count that as a serious contribution, but at least it was on topic.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 May 18 - 11:55 AM 42...and rising...??? you're on a winning streak today then... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 May 18 - 11:48 AM No. The subject as in the thread title and opening post. Israel and Gaza. Anything you want to say on it yet PFR? Casualties today 42 and rising. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 May 18 - 11:43 AM K - So that'll be 'the subject' as defined and determined by you, to allow you maximum potential for spreading your blatant propaganda without inconvenient opposition or challenge..??? yeah... seems fair enough... count me in... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 May 18 - 11:35 AM Jim, I will not engage on anything but the subject. Report me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 18 - 11:00 AM If you continue this I will ask that yo be removed You have no authority to instruct people what they should be talking about Please stop wrecking threads Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 May 18 - 10:54 AM PFR, Jim invited us in here to have a 'rational debate'.. could it still be possible...??? About Israel/Gaza yes. You have yet to say anything serious about it PFR. Not too late to start though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 May 18 - 10:47 AM Just a thought, addressed to no one in particular... Jim invited us in here to have a 'rational debate'.. could it still be possible...??? or we could just continue putting up with an irritating whining wank fest of me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me ... yet again...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 18 - 10:44 AM "Just more lies about me. " "Just more lies about me." "Just more about me then PFR." "You are obsessed." Hmmmm They're comin' to take me away - ha-ha Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 May 18 - 10:40 AM aghast silence........................................... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 May 18 - 10:37 AM Just more about me then PFR. You are obsessed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 May 18 - 10:08 AM K**** - A world of liars who do not understand just how right and important you are... Comfort yourself with those thoughts as the whole world turns against you... But one day you will show them... The world will pay for not taking you seriously.... [hmmmm.. that sounds familiar.. was it a book.. a movie... news reports...???] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 May 18 - 09:33 AM Still nothing on Israel or Gaza then PFR. Just more lies about me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 May 18 - 09:32 AM About 30 injured today already, according to Reuters who also put Israel's side of the story, "Israel says it is protecting its borders and takes such action only when protesters, some hurling stones and Molotov cocktails trying to lay explosives, come too close to the fence. Israel says the protests have been organized by Hamas - an Islamist group that controls Gaza and is sworn to Israel’s destruction - to provide cover for attacks, and that most of the dead were militants." https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-protests/israelis-fire-tear-gas-warning-shots-at-palestinian-protesters-on-gaza-border-idUSKBN1I50XA?feedType=RSS&virtualBrandChannel=11563 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 May 18 - 09:30 AM give k**** enough rope.... Jim - no problem.. sorry if my estimation of K****'s hidden motives and agenda didn't go far enough... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 May 18 - 09:17 AM Still nothing on Israel or Gaza then PFR. Just more lies about me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 18 - 09:12 AM "Jim - It was me not robo having a tongue in cheek poke at oldies... " So it was - taken as it was meant Apologies for that Robo - the rest stands Back when I've done the ironing Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 May 18 - 09:08 AM Jim - It was me not robo having a tongue in cheek poke at oldies... I'll actually be 60 this year, and my memory aint much better than my 86 year old mum's.. Saying this just in case you got robo and my long posts a bit mixed up in one...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 May 18 - 09:04 AM Keith - you are a complete waste of time and drain of energy. You are the most disruptive and despicable poster on mudcat. You are a total hypocrite who attacks and insults freely, yet a whining cry baby when your victims respond in kind. YOU pretend to be interested in debating issues merely to mask your over active propagating of thinly disguised hate speech. you... ...continue to fill in the blanks because you are absolutely aware of what you do and how you attack other mudcatters who dare disagree with you and your long term anti social unpleasantness.. Your usual gang may no doubt rally round in your defence and lauch a vile co-ordinated counter attack... You have no real interest in jews, you merely use a fake sympathy for jewish people as a convenient vehicle for pursuing your hatred/fear of muslims... I will further go out on a limb and propose you think the only problem with Israel is that there are too many jews there, but they are useful for defending the land from muslims, who you consider the worst of the 2 races. At least jews are killing muslims in Gaza while you sit safe egging them on from the comfort of your own home Your ultimate dream is of an Israel as a christian holy land and holiday resort... I doubt if I am entirely exaggerating or wrong...??? There, I mentioned 'Israel & Gaza' for you - happier now.....???? Looks like a sunny bank holiday... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 May 18 - 06:33 AM Still nothing about Israel or Gaza then PFR. What brings you here if you have nothing to say or contribute? I will not discuss anything else with you, and certainly not me. It is Friday so the demonstrators will be gathering at the border. I hope they demonstrate peacefully and do not try to breach the fence. That would make their point without anyone getting hurt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 18 - 03:40 AM "Your consistent problem/ weakness in argument is your utter lack of balance. " And yours is "balance" Whate is the "balanced response to what is happening now with it's "decent democratic countries" and its outright denial of historical, fully recorded events and "refugees" who run propaganda radio shows and are invited to speak in the Knesset" I see no balance We are not talking about odd atrocities - not even the mass killing of unarmed protesters that is taking place at present, but a seventy year history of land seizures, massacres and evictions which have created the largest single number of refugees on the planet Add to this a declared aim of over half the Israeli people (not just the politicians) of ethnically cleansing Arabs from their homes Has anyone here offered a single shred of protest of any of this - have you? Is that your idea of "balance" You, as others have, have accused me of antisemitism - have a single one of you offered a shred of evidence of my attacking the Jewish people or attempted to take up my offer of a donation - no you have not, yet that accusation is left hanging - balance!!! The most openly antisemitic statement made on this forum was made by one of your number - despite numerous requests, not a single one of you have condemned that statement - not one How "balanced" is that - it seems antisemitism ceases to be antisemitic when it comes from friend who share the same political leanings How can one be "balanced" about mass murder, ethnic cleansing, land sezuire, the massacres of civilians - beats me! I agree that it is "too simplistic" to deal with these subjects with debates such as these - that's why I have made a life-long habit of reading them up - they have been an interest of mine since my early twenties - and earlier My family history, before I was born, involved opposing the persecution of the Jewish people Members of my family were arrested for their activities, my father volunteered to go to war when he heard from neighbors what was happening to the Jews in Germany - he ended up sharing cell with Jews who had volunteered for the same cause - three of them came to his funeral Yet I "hate Jews" because I will not support a political regime that is now using the Jewish People as an excuse for the atrocities it is commuting The same with my interest in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe politics - I have never raise a word of support for Stalin yet to you I am a Stalinist Your knowledge seems to be based on anything you can scoop up from the internet I have read up on the subjects we have argued about - I do that with subjects that interest me and I expect (or I hope for) the same from those I argue with I come here to exchange ideas and gain knowledge not to win prizes I see little of that from the closed minds of people who are the most vociferous and often personally vicious on these subjects Where is your "balance"? Maybe I have the telescope upi to the wrong eye! Your consistent problem/ weakness in argument is your utter lack of balance. Give us a break!! Jim Carroll I very much appreciate your display of ageism - it fortifies what I believe to be true Perhaps we should campaign for detention centres for those who exceed a certain age You people really do let yourselves down time - much appreciated |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 May 18 - 03:13 AM just remembered one...'bellicose'... g'night... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 May 18 - 12:25 AM "PFR, there you go just posting about posters not the issues... ..PFR, you post about posters instead of the subject, and I comment on your behaviour. It is against our rules here." Consider this... It is too unsophisticated and simplistic to regard debates on this kind of subject as existing purely as academic 'toing and froing' theoretical argument and point scoring. These issues are happening right now in the real world, not stored on shelves in dusty history books... These debates can not be artificially divorced from living reality, and isolated from all essential constituents & inter-related levels of discourse... Therefore the attitudes and ideology of posters is fundamentally a major part of this issue, and needs to be acknowledged, discussed, and actively challenged as and when necessary... Discussing and holding to account the prejudice and misconceived notions of participants, is totally justified; primarily because of the ramification on debate content and biased agenda motivated manipulation. Are we having real intelligent debate, or mere academic posturing and game playing, or much worse pernicious spreading and reinforcing of negative divisive propaganda and hate... This should not be about winning or losing, or belittling and destroying opponents, but making a genuine serious effort trying to explain, understand and learn. Illumination not closed minded belligerent debate stifling point scoring. Until certain chaps get this, I will continue to respond in persevering sarcasm mode... Mutual respect and a willingness to consider alternative points of view would be preferable ... but... ..I guess when bad tempered old folks get set in their ways... [...and there's a bunch of key words I needed to use but can't remember.. .. and it's really bugging me... and I'm not even 60 yet...] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: robomatic Date: 03 May 18 - 07:21 PM Jim Carroll: Your consistent problem/ weakness in argument is your utter lack of balance. You started this thread about current events, then devolve into broad undocumented claims of many 'massacres' and then you, as a rule, cherry pick your links, such as the one you wholesale copied dating from December 1948. No one argues that any one side has been populated exclusively by angels, but you put all your weight on your claims and your quotes and you have no sense of proportion. This is also typical of your arguments in the famine thread, where you put so much blame on the English vis-a-vis the Irish potato famine, and give all credit to the Soviets vis-a-vis both the 1920s famine in Soviet Russia and the 1930s punitive famine of the Ukrainians by the Soviets. 1948 was the year Israelis became Israelis. There was a war of Independence 70 years ago, and their were certainly massacres on both sides. You pick only one side and one bad actor and one letter to the editor defaming it. It's an element of an argument, but not an argument in itself, and not germaine to the thread you started. Congratulations for keeping it alive so long. Your friends are holding back for your sake. You are passionate, but you are repetitive and unconvincing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 May 18 - 02:41 PM These threads are not actively moderated. The moderators steer clear of toxic political threads unless they get asked to intervene or things get seriously out of hand. I don't blame them for one minute. I would steer well clear of it wasn't for my masochistic tendancies:-) I must say though that things have got a lot better for me since I stopped interacting with certain parties. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 18 - 01:22 PM Anything's permissible in moderation Keith, but you do tend to scupper threads with your stonewalling and diversive tactics Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 May 18 - 11:52 AM I thought that we were not allowed to post against each other instead of the subject. If I was wrong about that I am sorry, and disappointed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 18 - 11:37 AM "It is against our rules here. " Can you stop this please If you want to discuss forum rules (there are no "rules") - go open a thread I suggest you read the suggestions for becoming a member and clean up you own act Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 18 - 11:28 AM "Jim - what's he then... like an Arab Lord Haw Haw...!!!??? " It would appear so Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 May 18 - 11:27 AM PFR, you post about posters instead of the subject, and I comment on your behaviour. It is against our rules here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 May 18 - 11:22 AM hmmm... by posting about me posting about posters... that someone is posting about posters and not the issues...????? bonkers..!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 May 18 - 11:20 AM PFR, there you go just posting about posters not the issues. I am not championing anybody. I have just tried to put the other side of the story. Why would anyone object to that? Now, anything about Gaza and Israel PFR? Steve, These threads are moderated. The mods do not need to be told when to close a thread, but just days ago you said that a thread was closed because you asked for it to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 May 18 - 11:20 AM "Ask Halawa" Jim - what's he then... like an Arab Lord Haw Haw...!!!??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 18 - 11:14 AM "Once again the only ethnic cleansing that has taken place in the Middle East is that of Jews having been ethnically cleansed from Arab lands. INCIDENTALLY CHUTZPA Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 May 18 - 11:05 AM Bob - sorry if I misread you... [though on balance...] But I am just very suspicious of your and K****'s real motives as self appointed champions of Israel and Jews... I am entertaining myself with my own preposterous [conspiracy] theories [which I will keep to myself] but the thing is, I'm really uncertain just how preposterous they may be...?????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 18 - 11:05 AM "So PFR, to you, a Palestinian refugee's views on being a Palestinian refugee are unbalanced.." Your "Palestinian refugee" is in fact a media personality promoting his Radio Programme "Ask Halawa" which is a propaganda outlet on behalf of the Israeli regime as can be seen here when he speaks to the KNESSET Undoubtedly, very a reliable and unbiased witness!!! How long are you going to dig up these 'token Arabs' in order to denigrate victims of ethnic cleansing Bobad Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 03 May 18 - 10:54 AM Wnat on earth has any of that to do with the massacres and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Israel Once again the only ethnic cleansing that has taken place in the Middle East is that of Jews having been ethnically cleansed from Arab lands. Secondly this thread is about Hamas terrorists attempting to "tear down the fence and tear out their (Jews) hearts from their bodies" under the guise of the right of return of the so-called Palestinian refugees. My post is about the so-called Palestinian refugees. You're welcome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 May 18 - 10:48 AM It is unbalanced. It is one persons view. To see both sides of the argument you need to have more than one point of view. Do you believe that the only balanced view is one that demonises Palestinians? ....well that's good, at least we now know where you're coming from. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 03 May 18 - 10:39 AM So PFR, to you, a Palestinian refugee's views on being a Palestinian refugee are unbalanced......well that's good, at least we now know where you're coming from. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 May 18 - 10:29 AM "Maybe PFR can start his education by watching this Palestinian "refugee" speak power to corruption and learn about how the whole UNRWA Palestinian "refugee" scam operates:" bob - why would I waste my time on any more of your links... when I know fully well from past form that they will not be objective or the least bit balanced...!!! I can and do trawl through piles of outrageous propaganda from both sides when I'm in the mood for getting a feel for what's going on in the minds of fundamentalist zealot's... That way I've certainly learnt how my status as a quarter jew is regarded on extreme right forums... btw...you might want to keep an eye out behind you... have you noticed how your sidekick has been getting a bit bold and uppity over the last 24 hours.. Who know's he might start thinking he's the Dom and you're his Sub...!!!??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 18 - 10:08 AM "Maybe PFR can start his education by watching this Palestinian "refugee" speak power to corruption and learn about how the whole UNRWA Palestinian "refugee" scam operates:"#Wnat on earth has any of that to do with the massacres and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Israel - apart from it being an attempt to denigrate the victims ? If the speaker is right, then those victims are getting it from all sides - the greatest threat being the desire of Israeli to create a 'pure state' by ethnically cleansing Arabs from their rightful homes Since the speaker mentioned Einstein, perhaps it's time to take a peek at is condemnation of what was taking place around the time of birth of the State of Israel in response to one of Keith's "never happened" massacres Jim Carroll TO THE EDITORS OF NEW YORK TIMES: Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine. The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents. Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin's behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement. The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future. Attack on Arab Village A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants (240 men, women, and children) and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin. The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party. Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model. During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute. The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots. Discrepancies Seen The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the goal. In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin's efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin. The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism. ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SEYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGIS, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. SINGER, IRMA WOLFE, STEFAN WOLFE. New York, Dec. 2, 1948 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 May 18 - 10:03 AM Knowledge is not gained just by listening to and promoting the views of one side. For every anti-Palestinian link you produce I can assure you that there is an equal and opposite. Swapping links is pointless in such an argument. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 03 May 18 - 09:59 AM no time for that.. Why am I not surprised? It's so much easier to form opinions based on prejudice than on knowledge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 May 18 - 09:49 AM bob - no time for that.. I'm still watching the epic "story of the Jews" and then the Natalie Portman movie... You seem more concerned about the threat of seemingly powerless individuals in a conflict of masive scope, millions of people, and mega powerful armies and nukes... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 May 18 - 09:45 AM Hello mates.. you got in quick... on two wheels??? I was too young, but very impressed and excited by both mods and rockers... My mum and dad were early 1950s proto rockers until a lorry put them in hospital.. unfortunately no more bikes after that, and settling down to eventually make me... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 03 May 18 - 09:42 AM Maybe PFR can start his education by watching this Palestinian "refugee" speak power to corruption and learn about how the whole UNRWA Palestinian "refugee" scam operates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkGTNM-2FTE |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 May 18 - 09:41 AM sorry..what.. did I hear some petty minded nit picking pillock thinking he's being clever...??? Crikey he's getting bolder.. like a school bully's sidekick trying to keep favour with his alpha protector....???? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 May 18 - 09:39 AM Leave it at saying nothing about the subject, PFR. It is preferable to posting utter bollocks about it. And far better than encouraging the trolls. I was a mod turned rocker BTW. My first vehicle was a Lambretta GT200 but as soon as I passed my test I bought a Triumph T110 650. I suppose I should beat myself up about it :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 May 18 - 09:38 AM Shut up, Keith. Humour has been introduced. Threads often get shut because people moan about people who they think get threads shut. I'd rather talk about mods and rockers for a bit. Even though I personally was a neb... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 May 18 - 09:35 AM Anything to say about Israel and Gaza PFR? I thought you did do a study module or something in the eighties. Did it not give you any insights at all? You have still said absolutely nothing about this issue since the thread started. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 May 18 - 09:30 AM Shall I call in the mods.. it's a bank holiday soon.. and those rockers act as if they own the sea front... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 18 - 09:30 AM Can we please stop talking about closing this thread - it remains open until a mod closes it so love it or leave it Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 May 18 - 09:19 AM Steve, Thread's dead. Accept it, chaps. Shall I call in the mods? You seemed to believe you could just call them to get a thread closed. Reassuring to know that you did not mean that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 May 18 - 06:53 AM Good result last night, Steve :-) No one can 'get a thread closed', that is entirely up to the moderation team. Any particular thread can be brought to the attention of the moderation team by any poster and, if the team see that it has sunk to the usual level that this type of thread does, they will consider closing it. Conversely, if a thread has been closed, that closure can be appealed against by anyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 May 18 - 06:32 AM Ha ha. I can't get a thread closed whenever I want and my status here is solid plebeian. Don't be ridiculous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 18 - 05:44 AM Sorry - meant to add Umless you can come up with anything more than mindless repetition of your former stupidity, don't expect a further response - one a day is more than enough for me Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 18 - 05:41 AM "Supporting a critical motion is not accusing Israel of massacres" Neither is staying silent about their atrocities proof that they have never happened Go ask the victims of Myanmar ethnic cleansing - they'll tell you The world burst nt condemnation - but did nothing Then they fell silent and have remained so ever since It took a pop star who handed back his award to keep the attention alve Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 May 18 - 05:13 AM It is disturbing that Steve can have a thread closed whenever he wants. What is his status here? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 May 18 - 05:06 AM David, that motion was opposing Trump's decision to move their embassy. Most decent countries did not support him and none have moved their own embassies. It in no way validates Jim's ludicrous claim that Israel is a terrorist state guilty of massacres. If it was it would be shunned by all decent nations. It is not. Supporting a critical motion is not accusing Israel of massacres or making it a pariah state. No state is above criticism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 May 18 - 04:27 AM Bobad's post was just a list of empty threats. Is shooting unarmed protestors or locking up children the type of response that a civilised world should take to such threats? If so, how come The USA is not shooting and locking up innocent N Koreans? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 18 - 03:24 AM "..... he can’t disagree with, he can ask for it to be closed rather than change his mind." I have never asked for a thread to be closed and am not about to do so now You and your friends on the other hand regularly revert to personal abuse when you find yourselves at a loss - that is tantamount to closings threads As I requested about your accusations of lying - please do not accuse me of things I don't do - I don't lie and I don't deliberately close threads How dare you constantly accuse me of things I have never done - including "Haring the Jews" You are, of course free to prove examples of things I can't disagree with - but you won't - they don't exist either other than in your mind Let's push on "I have not seen any threats from Israel to annihilate another sovereign state, have you? " Yes - we all have We have seen Israel actually annihilating human beings of one culture to make room for another In this case actions have spoken far louder than words The ethnic cleansing over half the population are calling for has articulated that aim perfectly Military incursions into Gaza have left behind them a wasteland of many thousands dead and the survivors without homes, schools or hospitals - what are they if they are not attempts (not meaningless threats) to annihilate a sovereign State? There have been regular calls to cut off water and electricity supplies to Gaza - what are they if they are not threats to annihilate a sovereign state? There is still in place a ten year old blockade of the essentials of living - farm equipment, fertilizers, building materials, some medical supplies.... actions (not threats) to bring about the annihilation so a sovereign state A wall dividing farmers from their means of living (of the type the world ranted and raved about when it was erected to divide the two Germany's.... not a sovereign state but a people of the 'wrong culture' The constant demands that the Arabs should be driven into the desert or into countries "of their own kind" - threats to remove an entire unwanted culture, not just a state And above all - the demands for ethnic cleansing from over half the Israeli people remains the greatest threat to an entire culture in one state - other countries have actually carried it out but it hasn't been stated policy since the Nazis annihilated six million Jews and as many other "unwantables" from the German population All these things are not just "threats" but many are actually in the process of happening Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 May 18 - 03:15 AM It was an empty threat, but I do dare sometimes, Jim! Seems to have calmed down a bit since last night. Bobad has reduced the idiocy, Bruce has desisted from his silly habit of capitalising words and Keith has shut up. All we need now is a breath of fresh air. Keep it up, pfr! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 03 May 18 - 02:13 AM The only country I have seen recently threatening to annihilate another sovereign state is the USA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 May 18 - 10:27 PM bob - you know that's not what I'm talking about... stop wasting time and insulting our intelligence persistently evading and deflecting... You do aspire to more peaceful compromise & co-existence in the region, no matter how idealistic and impossible, don't you...?????????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 02 May 18 - 09:35 PM list of all hate preachers on all sides in this sick troubled region... I have not seen any threats from Israel to annihilate another sovereign state, have you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 May 18 - 08:59 PM bob - quite some list that.. keep it up... But I trust you're keeping a fuller balanced persons of interest list of all hate preachers on all sides in this sick troubled region... For the sake of all humanity, no-one on any side of the divide should be spared some form of justice, for stirring up hatred that will persist for many generations not yet born... Like I said here earlier, a sincere International commitment to persuing regional stability demands carrots and sticks for both sides... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 May 18 - 08:45 PM Steve - of course I wouldn't hate you... but I'd be bloody fuming and disappointed... ... for at least 5 minutes... Give 'em enough rope... and keep on spooling it out to them... even sing a few shanties as they take up the slack.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 18 - 08:24 PM Leave it open. It is jc’s thread. When something is brought up even he can’t disagree with, he can ask for it to be closed rather than change his mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 07:22 PM "Shall I call in the mods?" Don't you dare - this is exactly what these people aim for by behaving as they do - what you can't win - wreck!!! They are humiliating themselves and have exposed themselves for what they are Ostracise them by all means, but there's nothing wrong with the sane people here tossing ideas about among themselves Allow these people to silence argument and Israel goes about it's bloody business uncondemned - there's SFA coming from the national press at present Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 07:17 PM "Mohammad Khatami, " yatteda, yatteda yattada So what Bobad ? None of these people would ever attack Israel simply because it is not in their interests to do so even if they were able to do What would they gain form helping the Palestinians - a heap of glowing nuclear rubbish Israel is the most powerful state in the Middle East - apart from its own standing army it has the backing of other nuclear powers to retaliate should it be attacked and it has enough economic support throughout the world to bring any county who dares to attempt to make good on those empty threats crashing about its ears This is nonsensical shit Every terrorist state from the Nazis onward have excused their atrocities by claiming "decadence" - Israel is now playing the same card Compare these threats with what Israel has done in the past and what it is doing now It is shooting down unarmed demonstrators - that is a war crime - an atrocity There can never be an excuse for what Israel is doing now - never If the world accepts this without intervention or demanding punishment we may as well tear up every human rights declaration and every expectation of countries adhering to international laws and return to barbarity Israel is carrying out the mass murder Keith is denying has ever happened - proof enough he is talking through his arse - and he ****** knows it The "civilized democratic countries" he talks about stood by for decades in full awareness while Assad arrested, tortured and murdered his people - they did nothing (unless you count Britain sales of military equipment and chemicals 'something') THe "decent.. etc" states stood by while Assad's snipers took out women carrying children in arms - no intervention, no boycotts Britain sold fighter planes to the Saudis, undoubtedly to be used on the starving Yeminis; Cameron opened a massive arms fair aimed at some of the worst despots in the world on the eve of The Aranb Spring Protests The same "decent, democratic" leader went to a funeral in Saudi Arabia while to pay rspects to the patriarch of the family who was, while Cameron was there, administering 1000 lashes for speaking out of turn Where were these "decent, democratic countries" while America was pouring burning burning petrol on third world pheasants and turning their lungs into lace curitains (and those of their pilots) with carcinogenic chemicals ? Nowhere to be seen Our own glorious leader - Mad Maggie - fought tooth and nail to keep Pinochet and his torturing and mass murdering regime out of the international criminal courts She described him as "a hero of democracy" and accused those who wanted him trid of "running a police state" Decent and democratic my arse - Isreal is a terrorist state in the process of adding to its record of mass murder - backed by over half Israel's population who support ethnic cleansing and describe African refugees as "cancers" Not much decency or democracy in all this Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 May 18 - 05:24 PM Thread's dead. Accept it, chaps. Shall I call in the mods? I know that pfr and Jim hate me for even thinking such thoughts but I don't care. This is going nowhere and we have a decent forum to consider... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 02 May 18 - 03:18 PM Utter nonsense - been here, done that Bruce Mohammad Khatami, the former president of Iran: “If we abide by real legal laws, we should mobilize the whole Islamic world for a sharp confrontation with the Zionist regime … if we abide by the Koran, all of us should mobilize to kill.” (2000) Ayatollah Ali Khamenei: “It is the mission of the Islamic Republic of Iran to erase Israel from the map of the region.” (2001) Hassan Nasrallah, a leader of Hezbollah: “If they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.” (2002) Nasrallah: “Israel is our enemy. This is an aggressive, illegal, and illegitimate entity, which has no future in our land. Its destiny is manifested in our motto: ‘Death to Israel.’” (2005) Yahya Rahim Safavi, the former commander of Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps: “With God’s help the time has come for the Zionist regime’s death sentence.” (2008) Mohammad Hassan Rahimian, Khamenei’s representative to the Moustazafan Foundation: “We have manufactured missiles that allow us, when necessary to replace [sic] Israel in its entirety with a big holocaust.” (2010) Mohammad Reza Naqdi, the commander of the Basij paramilitary force: “We recommend them [the Zionists] to pack their furniture and return to their countries. And if they insist on staying, they should know that a time while arrive when they will not even have time to pack their suitcases.” (2011) Khamenei: “The Zionist regime is a cancerous tumor and it will be removed.” (2012) Ahmad Alamolhoda, a member of the Assembly of Experts: “The destruction of Israel is the idea of the Islamic Revolution in Iran and is one of the pillars of the Iranian Islamic regime. We cannot claim that we have no intention of going to war with Israel.” (2013) Nasrallah: “The elimination of Israel is not only a Palestinian interest. It is the interest of the entire Muslim world and the entire Arab world.” (2013) Hojateleslam Alireza Panahian, the advisor to Office of the Supreme Leader in Universities: “The day will come when the Islamic people in the region will destroy Israel and save the world from this Zionist base.” (2013) Hojatoleslam Ali Shirazi, Khamenei’s representative in the Revolutionary Guard: “The Zionist regime will soon be destroyed, and this generation will be witness to its destruction." (2013) Khamenei: “This barbaric, wolflike & infanticidal regime of Israel which spares no crime has no cure but to be annihilated.” (2014) Hossein Salami, the deputy head of the Revolutionary Guard: "We will chase you [Israelis] house to house and will take revenge for every drop of blood of our martyrs in Palestine, and this is the beginning point of Islamic nations awakening for your defeat." (2014) Salami: "Today we are aware of how the Zionist regime is slowly being erased from the world, and indeed, soon, there will be no such thing as the Zionist regime on Planet Earth." (2014) Hossein Sheikholeslam, the secretary-general of the Committee for Support for the Palestinian Intifada: "The issue of Israel's destruction is important, no matter the method. We will obviously implement the strategy of the Imam Khomeini and the Leader [Khamenei] on the issue of destroying the Zionists. The region will not be quiet so long as Israel exists in it ..." (2014) Mohammad Ali Jafari, the commander-in-chief of the Revolutionary Guard: "The Revolutionary Guards will fight to the end of the Zionist regime ... We will not rest easy until this epitome of vice is totally deleted from the region's geopolitics." (2015) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 18 - 03:17 PM JC, "In 2012, the Iranian chief of staff, Hassan Firouzabadi, announced, “The Iranian nation is [committed to] the full annihilation of Israel.” In 2014, Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei (not to be confused with Khomeini) said that the “barbaric” Jewish state “has no cure but to be annihilated.”" "What is worth noting, however, is that Israelis intuit that Iran’s nuclear ambitions and Abbas’s deep-seated Jew-hatred actually share one critical characteristic – neither can be assuaged by territorial compromise." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 03:07 PM "In 2005, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iran’s then newly elected president, said that Israel needed to be “wiped off the map." Utter nonsense - been here, done that Bruce I repeat the posting "Hamas’s Gaza leader, Yahya Al-Sinwar says (in Arabic) that they will 'tear down the wall and tear out their (meaning Israeli’s) hearts.' " Pathetic threats only by a group without a trained army, without adequate weapons to take on the local boy scouts, and totally incapable of ever seriously making such a threat against a State with some of the best trained and best armed troops in the entire Middle East - AS WELL AS BEING NUCLEAR FACILITATED - no more than meaningless and desperate taunts Meanwhile, back in reality - Israel has murdered it's opponents by the thousand, has driven millions from their homes, has destroyed entire towns, villages and settlements - homes, hospitals (sometimes with the patients in them) has used heavy artillery, planes, tanks, chemical and anti-personnel weapons in built-up areas - as well as facilitating the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees At the present time, Israel is slaughtering unarmed protesters - four deaths reported on Friday (in the Israeli press - probably at least double that) and more to come before the week-end is over As well as the history of slaughter, Israeli police and soldiers have arrested and imprisoned (often without trial) many thousands of Gazans - including children According to the Israeli Human Rights Group, B'tselem, at the end of February, this year, there were AROUND 370 PALESTINIAN MINORS BEING HELD IN CUSTODY If that were not enough - they have stolen vast areas of territory in order to make room for Jewish Settlers and over half the Israeli people have given their support to a programme of ethnic cleansing Apart from the Palestinians, Israeli authorities have issued an order to African refugees (who they refer to as "cancer" that they should leave Israel or be imprisoned - they have the support of half the Israeli people for this too I shouldn't have to repeat this - it was a stupid claim when it was first made and it remains just as stupid ISRAEL HAS BEEN THE AGGRESSOR FROM DAY ONE - THE BRITISH SAILED OUT OF PALESTINE TO THE SOUND OF HAND GRENADES BEING THROWN INTO OCCUPIED ARAB HOUSES IN ORDER TO CLEAR THEM FOR THE NEW SETTLERS - A RELATIVE OF MINE WAS THERE WHEN BRITISH TROOPS LEFT IT IS ALSO CONFIRMED IN THE WRITINGS OF BENNY MORRIS Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 18 - 02:50 PM Abbas blames British for the State of Israel. " At a meeting of the Palestinian National Council, Abbas addressed a crowd of hundreds and stated that the Jews have no historic connection to the land of Israel and that the Holocaust was the result not of anti-Semitism, but of Jewish anti-social behavior and money lending. He even let the Jews off the hook for the State of Israel, claiming that it was the British – not the Jews – who wanted to create the State, as part of a larger colonial project. U.S. officials and Jewish leaders across the board condemned Abbas in no uncertain terms (though a leading Haaretz opinion writer did insist, somewhat incomprehensibly, that Abbas’s anti-Semitism does not indicate his lessening support for a two-state solution). Dan Shapiro, the U.S. ambassador to Israel during the Barack Obama administration, tweeted: “It’s over for Mahmoud Abbas. What a disgusting note to go out on.” If Israelis were not surprised by Netanyahu’s proof of Iran’s nuclear ambitions, they were even less nonplussed by Abbas’s reprise of classic European anti-Semitic tropes. What is worth noting, however, is that Israelis intuit that Iran’s nuclear ambitions and Abbas’s deep-seated Jew-hatred actually share one critical characteristic – neither can be assuaged by territorial compromise." "Since then, Iran’s vitriol has only intensified. In 2005, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iran’s then newly elected president, said that Israel needed to be “wiped off the map.” In 2012, the Iranian chief of staff, Hassan Firouzabadi, announced, “The Iranian nation is [committed to] the full annihilation of Israel.” In 2014, Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei (not to be confused with Khomeini) said that the “barbaric” Jewish state “has no cure but to be annihilated.” Iran and Israel share no border, and there is no territorial dispute between the two. Yet nothing about radical Islam’s appetite for Israel’s destruction can be sated, and ultimately, Israelis believe, the same is true of the Palestinians as well. What Abbas’s diatribe did was simply to confirm that Palestinian lust for Israel’s demise has not abated in 70 years; in an ironic way, there is relief in Abbas’s ending the charade. The Mossad heist, the Iranian drone that followed a few weeks later (perhaps in response to the Mossad operation) and Israel’s bombing raids over Syria may be the first shots across the bow in a much larger conflict to follow. No one knows. What unites Israelis, interestingly, is their largely shared sense that other than ceasing to exist, there is nothing that Israel can do to end the calls for its destruction and avoid periodic armed conflict. In 1923, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the father of revisionist Zionism, wrote his famous essay, “The Iron Wall,” arguing that the Arabs would never accept the existence of a Jewish entity in their midst, and that to survive, Zionists would have to put up an iron wall and be willing to fight, perhaps forever. Increasing numbers of even left-leaning Israelis sense that Jabotinsky, sadly, may have been right. Few Israelis want a war with Iran. If war does come, however, most will see it not as a fresh conflict, but as the latest tragic battle in the now century-long conflict over whether the Jews have a right to a national home in the Middle East." https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-05-02/netanyahu-and-abbas-clarify-israel-s-choices?cmpId=yhoo.headline&yptr=yahoo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 02 May 18 - 02:40 PM Leaving aside the dubious premise that only "liberal democracies" can be "decent countries", it seems almost every major western democracy voted in favour of that resolution, and of those that did not the overwhelming majority of the others abstained. No single European country voted against. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 May 18 - 02:04 PM "I do not know why you are here either. You contribute nothing to the discussion and just wind people up. ...not people... I'm a humanist remember.. I like the idea of people... No I reserve my wind ups for 'anti-people', those with bitter bigoted resentment festering in their hearts and minds... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 18 - 01:56 PM As is always the case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 May 18 - 01:54 PM "I would agree with this. I hope you allow others to be the same way." Bruce - absolutely... ..let our opinions loose.. ..and while folks squabble in vain hope of persuading the others to their way of thinking.. or just squabbling for the sake of squabbling.. It should be up to any observers to judge in their own minds which of the squabblers is the biggest dickhead... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 May 18 - 01:49 PM David, Most, seeing as those motions were adopted. No. Liberal democracies are a small minority at the UN. Also, supporting a critical motion is not accusing Israel of massacres or making it a pariah state. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 18 - 01:46 PM Mr Shaw, "spouting anti-Palestinian nonsense and lies through an extremely bigoted lens," As opposed to blighted this thread by spouting anti-Israeli nonsense and lies through an extremely bigoted lens? Please discuss the nonsense and lies rather than the people. YOU are not having a discussion, you are demanding others accept your opinion as gospel without debate. If you have valid points, show them. If you want to attack people for disagreeing with you, go ahead, but don't claim "can't be arsed to ask a mod to review the thread but it is clearly going nowhere useful." YOU are defining "useful" as "presenting only your side of the issue. " That is not acceptable to all of us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 May 18 - 01:46 PM PFR, Bob - fyi.. I know enough about this subject, and continue to learn more.. You have yet to make any remotely serious comment about the current issue. Most of your posts are indeed about other posters as has just been pointed out. I do not know why you are here either. You contribute nothing to the discussion and just wind people up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 02 May 18 - 01:37 PM For instance |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 02 May 18 - 01:35 PM "Which decent nations voted for which of those motions David?" Most, seeing as those motions were adopted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 18 - 01:32 PM PFR, "Yes, I do respond assertively to opinions I disagree with, and will continue doing so.. All opinions are not equal, or to be respected...!!!" I would agree with this. I hope you allow others to be the same way. IMO, I do not see that "we reached a point where Jim despairs of ever having any serious debate on this subject" I see that JC has not been able to persuade some of us to agree with his opinions, and he has failed to even consider others. If we ask for supporting information, he takes it as an attack rather than chance to enlighten others- and he refuses to "discuss" anything- his opinion is the only one he admits might be valid. I see no effort on his part to "debate", just lecture and demand other's acceptance of his opinions as proven fact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 May 18 - 01:31 PM Sorry to say this yet again, but, one more time, three people have blighted this thread by spouting anti-Palestinian nonsense and lies through an extremely bigoted lens, and, before bobad decides to get all childish again, those three people are Keith, Bruce and him. I can't be arsed to ask a mod to review the thread but it is clearly going nowhere useful. I've been more or less out of here for a while and I definitely am now. I recommend the move. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 01:30 PM ".....and demanding that the IDF soldiers guarding it shoot him" Israel Hayom (Israel Today) 2008 study by Moran Rada published in The Seventh Eye showed that while competing newspapers' coverage of Benjamin Netanyahu was "not especially fair," Israel Hayom's coverage was biased in favor of Netanyahu in most editorial decisions, that the paper chooses to play down events that don't help to promote a positive image for Netanyahu, while on the other hand, touting and inflating events that help promote Netanyahu and the Likud.[8] Oren Persico reached the same conclusion after the 2009 Knesset elections, writing that throughout the campaign, Israel Hayom published only one article critical of the Likud, and tens of articles critical of Kadima.[9] The popular nickname of Israel Hayom is "Bibiton," a combination of Benjamin Netanyahu's nickname "Bibi" with the Hebrew word for newspaper, "iton."[10] While in the Prime Minister's office, Ehud Olmert criticized Israel Hayom.[11][12] Journalist Ben-Dror Yemini has described the paper as "endless capital with a political agenda."[13] In 2016, it formally endorsed Donald Trump's presidential campaign.[14][15] Give us a break Bobad!!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 01:21 PM "All lies, of course" Bingo! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 May 18 - 01:20 PM Bruce - didn't see you before posting... I don't join parties, or toe lines.. can't help it I was born a punk hippy.. You'll find I do understand what the 'other side' says... and decide for my self on what grounds to reject it... Btw.. I don't have any urge or need to 'take sides'... that's the benefit of an enlightened 1970s UK state education.. Jim knows that although I tend to respect him more than some others, I am not shy to criticize him at times if I feel it appropriate.. Yes, I do respond assertively to opinions I disagree with, and will continue doing so.. All opinions are not equal, or to be respected...!!! I don't care about being popular, haven't fretted about that since my early 20s when I was in a notorious culturally alienated punk band.. I am happily unsociable and reclusive... Nice stab at analysis though.. Any other points...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 May 18 - 12:58 PM DtG - I should [and do ] know better - but this fills in a few boring minutes every now and then between 'to do' list chores... More seriously, it seems we reached a point where Jim despairs of ever having any serious debate on this subject while the dynamic duo do their best to kill reasonable discussion stone dead with sheer prejudice before even it begins... So if you can't beat 'em.. I might as well have some fun playing with 'em...??? well... I'm not perfect... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 18 - 12:54 PM Or not. Your choice |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 18 - 12:52 PM Right, PFR. Toe the party line and listen only to the "proper" people. Don't try to understand what the other side has to say- you might actually think for yourself whether the Gospel according to JC is entirely correct. Just attack those who present facts or opinions you disagree with. Don't bother to bring up facts YOU are aware of that others might not have considered. That way you can maintain your popularity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 May 18 - 12:47 PM Don't fall for it PFR. Oxygen of publicity and all that. Everyone in their right minds understands what you are on about. The others are just not worth wasting your cyber breath on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 May 18 - 12:38 PM Bob - fyi.. I know enough about this subject, and continue to learn more.. As importantly, I also know more than enough about the machinations of devious malignant reactionary mindsets to enjoy a few hearty chortles at what I read here and in other BS threads... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 May 18 - 12:33 PM K & b - Working on one of your other tactics now.. eh.. fellas...????? Thing to consider about my mum, is just how much she pretends she can't remember just for her own devious amusement, and to gain attention...??? Wouldn't it be so sly if someone was habitually indulging in similar strategies in our BS threads...!!!??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 02 May 18 - 12:32 PM From Israel Today A Palestinian man from Gaza has been arrested after approaching the border fence with Israel and demanding that the IDF soldiers guarding it shoot him so he could collect a monetary reward from Hamas. Mustafa Bana was among the thousands of Gazans who violently rioted along Gaza's security fence last month. Toward the end of April, Bana entered the closed military zone adjacent to the fence and called out to the Israelis to shoot him. Instead, the soldiers fired in the air and demanded he back away from the fence. Ynet reports that a Hamas force also showed up and called on Bana to return to Gaza. He refused. Bana was told by the Israelis that he could come through the fence, but that he'd be arrested and tried for terrorist activity if he did. Bana agreed, and is now on trial in Beersheva. During his interrogation, it was revealed that Bana wanted the soldiers to shoot him so that Hamas would pay him $500 and a monthly stipend, a common reward for those injured while violently confronting Israel. This incident is demonstrative of why so many Palestinians keep gathering at Gaza's security fence, and why so many have been injured by Israeli soldiers. They want to get shot. Some are forced to go into harm's way by their oppressive terrorist overlords. Others are swayed by hateful indoctrination. For the rest, Hamas resorts to one of the oldest tricks in the book, tempting the poorest members of society with cold hard cash to do things they would otherwise never dream of doing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 02 May 18 - 12:21 PM I don't even know why PFR is on this thread, all he is posting is about other posters. He admitted to knowing little about the subject of the thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 May 18 - 12:17 PM PFR, if you have a grievance, say what it is. All your tedious waffle is just to hide the fact that you have nothing to accuse me of. But please prove me wrong. What have I done? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 May 18 - 11:58 AM My mum's memory span is frequently less than 5 minutes.. but sometimes she randomly picks up on what's discussed and retains it long term... I'm not naming names, but someone beginning with K seems to have similar difficulty with his and other mudcatter's posts in this thread... ..though.. on the other hand ...I repeat.... Today's word is "disingenuous"... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 May 18 - 11:52 AM Jim, All lies, of course Yes. Propaganda. Otherwise Israel would be a pariah state. David, Quite a few decent nations voting for resolutions critical of Israel Which decent nations voted for which of those motions David? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 11:46 AM ONE MORE TIME All lies, of course Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 May 18 - 11:44 AM Jim, a terrorist state that robs their fellow Jews of their birthright unless they toe the party line Obviously Israel is no terrorist state. Its neighbour Gaza is ruled by an internationally recognised terror group. What did you mean about fellow Jews robbed of their birthright? Are you making shit up again Jim? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 02 May 18 - 11:44 AM Quite a few decent nations voting for resolutions critical of Israel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 May 18 - 11:42 AM "How much time does it take?" Yes indeed.. a question the international community of 'liberal democracies' seriously needs to step up and account for... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 May 18 - 11:27 AM PFR, "If they did do it guv, they would be a pariah nation, which they are not.... yet... These things take time and international diplomacy... Jim said "Israel has been carrying out massacres for decades." How much time does it take? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 11:26 AM "Sorry JC, I have reviewed MY posts, and found no name-calling- and neither can you." I addressed you collectively as you often address us "leftires", "the pack"... whatever I happen to regard being called a "lair" name calling - I don't tell lies - you have accused me of doing so several times You have screamed "jew hater" at me often enough All this is a bit of a face-saving diversion I think "but compared to the quality of the 2 or 3 we have left, I miss Teribus... " He did at least make an effort - little sign of that here Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 May 18 - 11:25 AM Bruce - depends if you follow K****'s line of mangled thinking and severely blinkered vision...??? To be fair, I've not really had enough contact with you to work out my own frame of reference on how to relate to you...??? On present encounter, you seem a more complex sophisticated thinker than K & b...??? That'd be more stimulating for me.. and I have seen you up in the "Gibson Thread".. so that bodes well... For instance, down here in BS, me and Bonzo are age old adversaries... upstairs in music we are kind of mates... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 18 - 10:50 AM I am responsible for MY posts, as you are for your's. Do I blame YOU for JC's comments? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 May 18 - 10:43 AM Today's word is "disingenuous"... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 May 18 - 10:41 AM Bruce - errrmmm.. you neglected to mention K & b's posts...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 18 - 10:34 AM Sorry JC, I have reviewed MY posts, and found no name-calling- and neither can you. But you should read your own posts- and see how many unsupported accusations the rest of us find in them. Your opinions , it appears. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 May 18 - 10:33 AM Jim - sorry to say this in public, but compared to the quality of the 2 or 3 we have left, I miss Teribus... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 10:30 AM "Please post the details, if you can. " Go read up the postings - including your own I think we're finished as far as y three are concerned, don't you? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 18 - 10:27 AM Namecalling, JC? Please post the details, if you can. Thought not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 May 18 - 10:21 AM To quote Bob Dylan 'And the Germans now too have God on their side' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 May 18 - 10:13 AM "If they did do it guv, they would be a pariah nation, which they are not.... yet... These things take time and international diplomacy... South Africa - our pals... -> South Africa - actually we just realised they're really really bad guys, boycott them...!!! -> South Africa - hooray they responded to International pressure and stopped being baddies, they're our pals again... [PFR - studied an International Relations module in year 1 degree - 1982..] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 02 May 18 - 10:04 AM You're in fine form today Keith.......lol. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 10:03 AM Still no response - even in a three-to-one contest Your "Contribution to World Peace" appears to be supporting a terrorist state that robs their fellow Jews of their birthright unless they toe the party line The fact that you can only do so by name-calling makes you all what you are Game, set and match (to echo Keith's reason for being here), I think Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 May 18 - 09:59 AM Jim, If you have nothing to say apard from "they didn't do it guv" I have pard. They didn't do it guv, and their friendly relations with every decent nation in the world is proof of that. If they did do it guv, they would be a pariah nation, which they are not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 18 - 09:40 AM JC has no sense of humor- and it is something that ALL of us have done, on occasion. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 02 May 18 - 09:31 AM Not appropriate to use typos against JC- there are more valid points to use. It was a joke - gave me a chuckle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 18 - 09:23 AM And I say: You have had the chance to drive my arguments into the ground - you can't, so they stand. So we each walk away winners. What a true contribution to World Peace you have made. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 09:22 AM Unless of ourse you are arguing that Isreal is no different than those you have listed in its criminal activities - I'm sure you are not Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 09:20 AM " say nothing -" Say nothing seems to sum it up - you have had my opinion - feel free to challenge it "No comment" is the advice lawyers give to their criminal clients You have the chance to dive my arguments into the ground - if you can't, they stand Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 18 - 09:05 AM Keith, Not appropriate to use typos against JC- there are more valid points to use. JC, If YOU have nothing to say apart from "they did it, guv" - say nothing - thread- Egypt blockading and killing Palestinians- JC: " But Israel..." thread- Jordan killing Palestinians- JC: " But Israel..." thread- Lebanon killing Palestinians- JC: " But Israel..." thread- Syria killing Palestinians- JC: " But Israel..." thread- Palestinians killing Palestinians- JC: " But Israel..." Thread- Arab League putting Palestinians into camps for 70 years- JC: " But Israel..." thread- Arab League nations driving out more Jews than Israel have Palestinian Arabs leave- " But Israel..." I think we got your opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 08:55 AM "fat shaming" Never mentioned your weight Keith If you have nothing to say apard from "they didn't do it guv" - say nothing - Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 May 18 - 07:56 AM ...and stop fat shaming. It is not big or clever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 May 18 - 07:54 AM Jim, just in case anyone missed it, please repeat something I posted that was ignorant. My last post was just hard facts, and you could not challenge one of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 06:23 AM Nope Keith I don't The only value in responding to you is to expose your ignorance and you do a far better job of that than I or anybody else can as you have just illustrated with your above posting If it's all the same with you, I'll wait to see if anybody comes along with real argument - no takers so fat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 May 18 - 06:18 AM And you more than propaganda Jim. If Israel was guilty of massacres it would be a pariah among decent nations. In fact it has good relations with every other liberal democracy in the world. Do you challenge anything I just said about Gaza? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 04:56 AM You want a part of this Keith you have to come up with more than denial of facts Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 May 18 - 04:55 AM The current Gaza situation has context. Gaza is ruled very strictly by Hamas, and nothing happens there that they do not want to happen. There could be no spontaneous mass demonstrations about anything. Hamas is desperate to get its fighters across the border to kill Jews. They have achieved that in the past by covertly cutting through and have even dug tunnels under it. Israel has to consider that the mass demos are just a cover for more cross border Jew killing operations. They dare not allow a mass incursion into Israel. Quite rightly, some Western nations are investigating the shootings to ensure they were justified. Jim, Israel has been carrying out massacres for decades No it has not. If it had it would be a pariah among decent nations. In fact it has good relations with every liberal democracy in the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 03:25 AM (Bobab, Bruce and Keith - and whomever else it may concern) Our discussions here are over - now you have reverted to personal abuse this thread can have no future, which will suit your inability to put up an intelligent case for what is happening in Israel at present. You have made quite clear that your agendas have nothing to do with the Jewish People, but rather, to defend the actions of what has gradually become an ultra right wing State None of you are prepared to defend the obvious antisemitism by one of your number that blew the gaff on your real intentions, so now that has been placed in the open let's move on. there can be little defence of the openly extreme behaviour of what is happening on the Israeli/Gazan border anyway, as your "what about" shift to Syria has shown. It is about time the world began to question whether Israel has become a fully-fledged antisemitic state. Jews who do not support the extremist right-wing behaviour of the Israeli Administration have now had their 'Jewishness' stripped from them by Israeli politicians and have been declared "non-Jews" or "self-hating" or "self loathing Jews" – they have been stripped of their cultural identity by a political party – that is not just antsemitic, but it an act of Facism for any political group to question the cultural validity of huge groups of people because they will not ‘toe the party line’ At first it was the actions of groups of extremists, but when Justice Minister, Ayelet Shaked, declared it publicly and was not sacked for doing so, it became official party policy For some time now the very language to describe the Jewish opponents of Israel is reminiscent of that used by the Nazis in the 1930s In a review of his book in an Isreali newspaper, ‘The Iron Wall’, Professor Avi Shlaim is described as “Slyme” – straight out of the Nazi propaganda press. The leadership of Israel is now allying itself with antisemites like VIKTOR ORBAN in HUNGARY and drawing support from Europe’s far right SUCH AS GERMAN FASCIST GROUPS The Government had declared it will name the main station of its planned underground railway in Jerusalem afterANTI SEMITIC DONALD TRUMP There is something rotten in the State of Israel; it’s about time that was discussed rather than pointing fingers at the extremist behaviour of other states to avoid what is happening on the Gazan/Israeli border Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 01 May 18 - 10:29 PM Palestinians being slaughtered in Syria. Question: Why no action by UNHRC. Carroll: because Israel. There you have it folks, Carroll shows his true colours again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 07:22 PM What on earth has the present massacre taking place to do with what Assad is doing Israel has been carrying out massacres for decades - they have never been brought to trial for a single one of them - WHY ETHNIC CLEANSING ? HERE'S WHY One thing you people have established beyond doubt that the Antisemitism being discussed at tpresent has nothing to do with the Jewish People and everything to do with the war crimes and human rights abuses carried out by Israel Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 01 May 18 - 04:11 PM Palestinians victimized by Assad's massacres in Syria: • Killed: 3,729 • Missing: 309 • Imprisoned: 1,674 • Displaced: 120,000 UNHRC action for these Palestinians: • Resolutions: 0 • Emergency Sessions: 0 • Commissions of Inquiry: 0 Why? https://t.co/qhSjGkvMYA |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 May 18 - 02:37 PM PFR, k**** are clucking whilst evading and deflecting from answering direct questions.. I was not aware that I had failed to answer any direct questions. Sorry if I have. Remind me what they were and I will give them my full attention and answer as best as I can. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 May 18 - 12:27 PM "You want me to post more??"... Please do to relieve the monotony of the K & b repetitive loop..... "Don't you READ the thread you are commenting on?" Yes.. every single word...!!! I limit the number of BS threads I participate in to give the ones that really take my interest my full concentration... No word escapes me.. which is why I moan so much about overlong bloated unfocused posts... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 12:19 PM The first credential needed from a defender of the Jewish people is the willingness to criticise Antisemitism even when it comes from a friend - present company fell at that fence Jim More wisdom from Hajo Meyer Auschwitz survivor, Hajo Meyer, used a speech to encourage support for the international campaign for boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel. Approximately 100 people attended the meeting in The Grosvenor Hall, Belfast on Friday 29 January 2010. During his speech, Meyer condemned the misuse of the holocaust for political purposes and compared Israel's treatment of Palestinians today to Nazi treatment of Jews before and during the second world war. The meeting, to be repeated in Dublin on Saturday 30 January, concludes a month-long series of events organised by the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign to mark the first anniversary of Israel's invasion of Gaza in December 2008. Prior to arriving in Ireland, Meyer had spent the previous week on a speaking tour in Scotland and England organised by the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network. In February, Meyer is to continue his speaking tour in France, Austria and Germany. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 01 May 18 - 12:09 PM First post just after YOUR first post. Hello back at you. Don't you READ the thread you are commenting on? Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce - PM Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:09 PM This is my 15th post here. That is 8.6% of the total posts You want me to post more?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 12:07 PM hey really are no going to respond to the fact that Israel is now openly slaughtering unarmed demonstrators are they PKR Let's give Holocausret survivor the last word By Hajo Meyer I was 20 years old when Auschwitz was liberated by the Soviet army 55 years ago. This occurred just in time because 10 months imprisonment in Auschwitz-Gleiwitz-1 had weakened me considerably. One needed a hell of a lot of luck in order to survive that long under the circumstances in that camp. Two important components of luck were on my side. First, during my first years as a refugee kid in the Netherlands I had learned to be a locksmith. So during the very strong winter of ‘44-‘45 I worked in the warmth of a factory. Second, I had acquired a very good and completely trustworthy friend, called Jos. We helped each other as much as possible. The two of us did indeed survive. Another aspect of my friendship with Jos was that in spite of — or better, due to — the extremely high number of people per square foot in such a camp, one felt extremely lonely. Because of our friendship, mutual help and absolute mutual trust we were not lonely. This was vital to our psychological survival. Psychological survival is at least as important as physical survival. In fact, the Nazi concentration camps were their attempt to dehumanize us Jews. If a prisoner became part of the oppression system by being Kapo, the dehumanization would be successful. Obviously, the non-Jewish members of the oppression system were also no longer fully human. I realized there that anybody from a dominating group who tries to dehumanize people from a minority group, can only do so if by education, indoctrination and propaganda he has already been dehumanized himself, independent of the uniform he wears. It is a deep tragedy that in Israel this is not what one concludes from the experiences in Auschwitz. To the contrary, Auschwitz is elevated there into a new religion. “In the beginning is Auschwitz,” wrote Elie Wiesel. “Nothing should be compared to the Holocaust but everything must be related to it.” This elevation has allowed it to be exploited for political ends. All that was once most valued in a rich and varied Jewish heritage — the centrality of the ethical tradition, for instance — disappears beside the Nazi attempt at annihilation. This Holocaust religion translates in the minds of many into the impossibility that Israel can do any wrong. Auschwitz existed within history, not outside of it. The main lesson I learned there is simple: We Jews should never, ever become like our tormentors — not even to save our lives. Even at Auschwitz, I sensed that such a moral downfall would render my survival meaningless. Like most German Jews, I was raised in a secular and humanist tradition that was more antagonistic than sympathetic towards the Zionist enterprise. Since 1967 it has become obvious that political Zionism has one monolithic aim: Maximum land in Palestine with a minimum of Palestinians on it. This aim is pursued with an inexcusable cruelty as demonstrated during the assault on Gaza. The cruelty is explicitly formulated in the Dahiye doctrine of the military and morally supported by the Holocaust religion. I am pained by the parallels I observe between my experiences in Germany prior to 1939 and those suffered by Palestinians today. I cannot help but hear echoes of the Nazi mythos of “blood and soil” in the rhetoric of settler fundamentalism which claims a sacred right to all the lands of biblical Judea and Samaria. The various forms of collective punishment visited upon the Palestinian people — coerced ghettoization behind a “security wall”; the bulldozing of homes and destruction of fields; the bombing of schools, mosques, and government buildings; an economic blockade that deprives people of the water, food, medicine, education and the basic necessities for dignified survival — force me to recall the deprivations and humiliations that I experienced in my youth. This century-long process of oppression means unimaginable suffering for Palestinians. It is not too late to learn a different lesson from Auschwitz. For example, in the last year, the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network has become a means for many — including young Jews in the United States — to challenge the precepts of Zionism and support the Palestinian call for boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel. Their goal, and mine, is to challenge the dispossession and exclusivity of a Jewish state, in their names and in mine. They understand the urgency of the classical Jewish concept of teshuvah, return from the wrong road. Further, they understand that the pursuit of justice and making ethically positive sense out of senseless suffering is not only part of an ancient Jewish interpretation and shaping of history, but is crucial for all of us in creating the world we want to live in, and to our moral survival. Hajo Meyer is the author of The End of Judaism: An Ethical Tradition Betrayed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 May 18 - 12:01 PM k**** are clucking whilst evading and deflecting from answering direct questions.. I was not aware that I had failed to answer any direct questions. Sorry if I have. Remind me what they were and I will give them my full attention and answer as best as I can. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 May 18 - 11:54 AM Bruce - feel free... I'm not possessive or bothered about copyright intellectual bollocks.. why not also add it to the list of stock scripted replies K**** relies on.. at least I'll provide some stylistic variety .. oh and ..hello.. So bob and k**** are clucking whilst evading and deflecting from answering direct questions.. and now it seems you suddenly ride into the rescue...!!!??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 01 May 18 - 11:41 AM my " |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 01 May 18 - 11:39 AM Let me see: "That response is laughable... A mangled jumbled cut and paste collage of all your favorite stock scripted answers... If I was Seriously man, think before you type and post... Personally, I almost feel pity for But please do carry on undermining your own credibility.." PFR, do you really think that your last post actually addressed the one criticized? I intend to use YOUR post ( as I have shown above) WHENEVER a post is not what I want to hear. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 May 18 - 11:32 AM PFR, I do not remember you previously asking about my non-Jewishness, and I am not offended to be asked anyway. I am just surprised that you consider it to be relevant. You have just denigrated my post at length, but without identifying a single statement that is at fault. Please help me to improve by actually saying what you think is wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 May 18 - 11:20 AM Keith - I'll temporarily break silence for a moment and address you by name... That response is laughable... A mangled jumbled cut and paste collage of all your favorite stock scripted answers... If I was bob, I'd be deeply embarrassed to have you side by side with me on the same team... Seriously man, think before you type and post... Personally, I almost feel pity for bob.. But please do carry on undermining your own credibility... Btw.. I remember the last time you took offense when I asked you directly if you were even the slightest bit jewish [like me and my little 1/4]... hmmmmm...????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 May 18 - 11:05 AM PFR, if you mean people like Bobad and me, we do not start these Israel threads. You on the Far-Left start them and express extreme views that few can agree with, but most people avoid disgreeing with you because you are so many and so beligerant. Why bring our ethnic backround up PFR? How is that relevant. Worst place in the world...??? well I know I'd never say that about Israel.. A chap really shouldn't make such stupidly malignant sweeping statements No chap did PFR. I said, "The real question is why you on the Left single out Israel as if it was the worst place in the world," Why do you attack Israel so much more than any other country? and as for "ignoring the much worse shortcomings of Israel's enemies and neighbours" Can't say I've ever done that either.. Yes you have. You do not post about human rights abuses in Arab or Islamic states. Only Israel. Your extreme Left Wing views are not widely held. I have never expressed a Right Wing view. Just main stream moderate views that only appear Right Wing from your Far Left perspective. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 May 18 - 11:00 AM Jim and me "cronies"...??? ..only in the sense of two blokes who only know each other's faces enough to say hello, sat at different tables in a pub; who both end up in the same silly arguments with another two blokes sat together in a dark corner, who are even dafter than they are... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 01 May 18 - 10:28 AM PFR Seriously.. just what are the real motives and objectives of such ardent non jewish/Israeli supporters of the Israeli regime...?????? Hmm...............supporters of the Israeli "regime"......I think not. PFR nasty trick of the far right... Lol.....if that's where you are trying to imply I am politically you are way off. You have absolutely no idea about my political position because I have never articulated one here. If you want to see someone Dismissively marginalising inconvenient alternative viewpoints I suggest you look no further than your crony Carroll. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 May 18 - 10:11 AM Jim - yeah.. a non jew/Israeli screaching out dismissive insults of 'fringe jew' and 'jew extremist' does sound... welll.. a bit dubious.. ..errr... a bit anti sem... oh what what was that word... it's on the tip of my tongue... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 10:05 AM Don't bother PFR If/when Israel starts sentencing its opponents to death this pair will be in the front of the queue to pull the rope Remember the Black Holes Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 May 18 - 09:57 AM Hark... is someone talking bollocks...??? hmmmmm... yes... I think so... "Your question is the wrong way round. Most people, and all liberal democratic governments, feel the same about it as say Bobad and me. That is the moderate, mainstream view. That is the moderate, mainstream view. The real question is why you on the Left single out Israel as if it was the worst place in the world, while ignoring the much worse shortcomings of Israel's enemies and neighbours." See I'd have thought 'Most people' are several degrees of indifferent to all this...!!! Worst place in the world...??? well I know I'd never say that about Israel.. A chap really shouldn't make such stupidly malignant sweeping statements about my or any other reasonable humanists opinions... and as for "ignoring the much worse shortcomings of Israel's enemies and neighbours" Can't say I've ever done that either.. I consistently call out the fanatical zealot murderous arseholes on both sides of the divide... So, in conclusion - yes, I definitely heard someone talking complete bollocks whilst slyly evading the real question put to the likes of him... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 May 18 - 09:42 AM PFR, Seriously.. just what are the real motives and objectives of such ardent non jewish/Israeli supporters of the Israeli regime...?????? Your question is the wrong way round. Most people, and all liberal democratic governments, feel the same about it as say Bobad and me. That is the moderate, mainstream view. The real question is why you on the Left single out Israel as if it was the worst place in the world, while ignoring the much worse shortcomings of Israel's enemies and neighbours. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 May 18 - 09:36 AM Dave, we revoked the citizenship of people who went to fight for ISIS. The person you refer to, " a judge said the move was a “suitable and proportional” response after Zayoud ploughed a car into a female Israeli soldier before stabbing three civilians near Kibbutz Gan Shmuel, northeast of Hadera, in October 2015." Zayoud was convicted of four counts of attempted murder and sentenced to 25 years in jail following the "nationalistically motivated" attack, which came during a spate of stabbings and shootings in Israel. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-revokes-citizenship-stripped-arab-israeli-alaa-raed-ahmad-zayoud-haifa-kibbutz-gan-shmuel-a7879771.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 May 18 - 09:35 AM Seriously.. just what are the real motives and objectives of such ardent non jewish/Israeli supporters of the Israeli regime...?????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 May 18 - 09:28 AM Bob - It's easy enough to maliciously denigrate, a 'fringe jew'... Dismissively marginalising inconvenient alternative viewpoints is an age old nasty trick of the far right... But shouldn't a 'fringe jew' at least be accorded more respect and credibility and right to comment on Israel and related issues than a non jew and non Israeli...??? Or even pretend wannabe jews/Israelis...!!!??? There does seem to be a peculiar kind of rabid pro Israeli habitually/obsessively spreading propaganda in these threads, who writes in such a way as if they were jews/Israelis... It may only be at an implicit level, but it is an odd [inadvertent...???] pretense which could easily fool casual readers into thinking these imposters are real enough to merit more credibility than deserved... I know I'm only quarter jew, ["Mischling of the second degree" for any right wingers here who take a keen interest in such classifications...] so perhaps that fairly entitles me to my opinions...??? - and before the 2 main pro Israelis turn this round and say "But Jim's not a Jew, so he should shut up" Well maybe he isn't, but at least he doesn't play a game of slyly implying that he might be..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 May 18 - 09:27 AM Revoking citizenship: Israel's new repressive tool Could be a worry for many. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 09:20 AM "I'm glad you consider Benny Morris a respected historian. " I didn'rt say I agreed with what he said - just that he is respected in Israel and is unlikely to say anything detrimental about his homeland His views are as contentious as any other supporter of Israel You are a pair of ethnic cleansing supporters and atrocity deniers - why should anybody vbe the slightest bit interested in what you have to say At least David Irving did some homework before he wrote his filth Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 01 May 18 - 09:12 AM Historians like Benny Morris are respected figures in the field of Israeli history I'm glad you consider Benny Morris a respected historian. Read what he has to say about Avi Shlaim: Derisionist History Excerpt: Nowhere in this book does Shlaim say a word about the Jewish people’s three-thousand-year-old connection to the Land of Israel--that this land was the Jewish people’s cradle; that they subsequently ruled it, on and off, for over a thousand years; and that for the next two millennia, after going into exile, they aspired and longed for repatriation. Nor does he mention that the Arabs, who had no connection to Palestine, in the seventh century conquered the land “unjustly” from the Byzantine Empire and “illegally” settled in it, forcibly converting it into an “Arab” land. If conquest does not grant rightful claim, then surely this should be true universally? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 May 18 - 08:58 AM For Christs sake read the book Keith rather than trawling around for adverse comments - I was not trawling for adverse comments, just demonstrating that Shlaim's views are contested. You should not read his book and imagine it is universally accepted as "a reliable history of events in Israel and surrounding areas during the past 70 years" It is not. You on the left kid yourselves that your extreme views are the only ones that matter. In the real world, very few people think like you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 May 18 - 08:54 AM Good gracious. We now have the wrong kind of historian as well as the wrong kind of Jew. I suppose Natalie Portman must be the wrong kind of actress. You have to hand it to these guys. If there was an Olympic even for verbal gymnastics they would win gold hands down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 08:43 AM "feign Jew cred" Which sums up the whole sordid mess that is now Israel - anybody who hates the extremist regime that runs Israel is not fit to be a Jew - Israel Uber Alles - Fascism in the extreme Neither you nor Keith has bothered to address the subject of the thread - that Israel has been shooting down unarmed demonstrators just as the South African Apartheid regime did at Sharpville The sharpest critic of that atrocity is the former Ambassador to South Africa, just as the sharpest Critics of what has happened to Israel were former heads of its security forces AS for Keith's attack on a book he obviously no intention of reading and is bending over backwards to dissuade others from doing so, I put up the names I did because Historians like Benny Morris are respected figures in the field of Israeli history - not friggin' unknown journalists It seems "real historians" selling books in "real bookshops" have ridden off into the sunset Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 01 May 18 - 08:17 AM Meh, another fringe, Israel hater writing revisionist history. The kind of fringe Jew embraced by Israel haters primarily because he is an Israel hating Jew extremist, as if he somehow represents the opinions of the majority. Just like Corbyn in his attempt to feign Jew cred attended Seder with a fringe anti-Israel group of extremists - likes attracting likes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 06:10 AM For Christs sake read the book Keith rather than trawling around for adverse comments - or at least let us make up our own minds Your last link was to a journalist Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 May 18 - 06:07 AM You skipped over these two comments on the same Wiki page, Howard Sachar sees Karsh as the "preeminent scholar-spokesman of the Revisionist (politically-rightist) Movement in Zionism."[19] Author David Rodman opined, "Karsh stitches together a seemingly irrefutable case for the validity of the traditionalist narrative, possibly bringing to an end once and for all the New Historian phenomenon as a sustainable historiographical project."[20] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efraim_Karsh |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 05:40 AM Isn't twaling around for the opinions of others that suit your own prejudices far easier than reading the book yourself Something we can all do if we have the inclination New Historians leader Benny Morris called Karsh's Fabricating Israeli History "a mélange of distortions, half-truths, and plain lies that vividly demonstrates his profound ignorance of both the source material... and the history of the Zionist-Arab conflict," titling his article "Undeserving of a Reply".[21] Morris adds that Karsh belabors minor points while ignoring the main pieces of evidence.[22] Political scientist Ian Lustick commented that Karsh's writing in Fabricating Israeli History was malevolent, and his analysis erratic and sloppy.[23][24] Yezid Sayigh, professor of Middle East studies, wrote that Karsh "is simply not what he makes himself out to be, a trained historian (nor political/social scientist)."[11] Karsh accused Sayigh of a "misleading misrepresentation of my scholarly background" and retorted that Sayigh's remarks were "not a scholarly debate on facts and theses but a character assassination couched in high pseudo-academic rhetoric".[ Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 May 18 - 05:33 AM NYT review, " But just as early Israeli historians showed far too much tolerance for Zionist machinations, Shlaim is guilty of the inverse -- taking Nasser at his word and referring to 'Arab principle' without skepticism ('The Arab leaders refused to sign the agreement because, as a matter of principle, they were opposed to formal recognition of Israel')." https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/99/11/14/reviews/991114.14bronjt.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 May 18 - 05:13 AM -the book I mentioned is a reliable history of events in Israel and surrounding areas during the past 70 years It is highly contentious and disputed by many other historians. " Karsh criticised Shlaim in the Times Literary Supplement for ignoring Arab aggressive intent and accused him of leaving out the Arab-Palestinian side to the conflict. Shlaim does downplay Arab aggression as part of his overall argument," A lengthy review here,http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/153 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Gutcher Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:51 PM Bobad---the book I mentioned is a reliable history of events in Israel and surrounding areas during the past 70 years and should be of immediate relevance to the current situation. I shall look out for the book you mentioned |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:44 PM "Jim - oops sorry.. " Hapens to the best of us until you take the pledge Beware his Black Holes - they leave a nasty taste in the mouth The best way to decide whether to give these people the dignity of a reply is to count the number of times he has ignored your points - but you will need a calculator Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:39 PM so now we've been talking all day about a fence within a border... make yer mind up...!!!??? Crikes... is this a foretaste of a dispute I'm likely to have with next door over their planned extension, which seems to have gone a bit quiet since I submitted my objection to the council...!!!??? I'd better start stocking up with jets, tanks, and nukes... just in case... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Apr 18 - 01:35 PM The dispute is actually over the border fence. That is Israel's border fence. Israel built it and it is well inside Israel so anyone approaching it has already crossed illegally. So that is Israel's border fence. Just theirs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Apr 18 - 01:28 PM don't be so silly - you know I was exceptionally clear... otherwise why would i have made the point of taking you to task on it... Remember, I am too sharp for you and your devious weasel mismangling trickery... Jim - oops sorry.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Apr 18 - 01:04 PM PFR, you were the only person unclear what border was being discussed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:46 PM imho the point of recommending books ought to be to open minds to new and different ideas and perspectives, not to confirm and further entrench pre-existing bias and prejudice... ..but then, i'm one of those awkward free thinking objective fair minded humanists.. who am i to criticise old murderous eye for an eye fanatics and zealots... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:40 PM Missed a bit "Lololol...........they are in their homes. " Lololo One in three refugees world wide is Palestinian. There are about 6.5 million Palestinian refugees worldwide. More than 3.8 million Palestinian refugees and their descendents displaced in 1948 are registered for humanitarian assistance with the United Nations. You will respond to none of this, of course Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:37 PM "Lyn Julius is the daughter of Iraqi-Jewish refugees. " Lyn Julius is a right winger who accuses the left of claiming that the state of Israel has no right not exist - considering that the left was not only brought into being by Jewish refugees but is made up of a large number of activist Jews, her grap of both history and politics is, not to overstate, unreliable Her target is not only non Jews, but she makes a point of Jewish critics of Israel in Britain Those who try strenuously to separate antisemitism and anti-Zionism include the leaders of the British-Jewish community, who banned Israeli flags from a recent demonstration against antisemitism. According to Thomas, it is a distinction without a difference. Decades of media bias have wrought their distortions: Israel is guilty of all kinds of crimes, his peers believe – and Jews outside Israel are guilty sympathisers. She is fighting for the same rights for Jewish exiles to return that she would deprive the Palestinians of doing Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:18 PM Gutcher, here's a book for you to read: Uprooted: How 3000 Years of Jewish Civilization in the Arab World Vanished Overnight by Lyn Julius. Lyn Julius is the daughter of Iraqi-Jewish refugees. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:01 PM The Palestinians are protesting in order to return to their homes Lololol...........they are in their homes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:01 PM ...oh.. so now it's "Gaza's Israel border"... well that's getting a bit more positive and inclusive... That's what we need - open minds and scope for optimism progressing towards less confrontational co-existence... carrots and sticks for both sides of the divide... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Apr 18 - 11:45 AM Don't get sucked into Keith's shit PFR The Palestinians are protesting in order to return to their homes - not into another State Another smokescreen Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Apr 18 - 11:32 AM PFR, the strife under discussion is happening at Gaza's Israel border, not its Egypt border which Egypt keeps permanently closed. (It is enjoying a 3 day opening now, but only for medical patients, students and people with a permit to enter Egypt.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Apr 18 - 11:08 AM Thanks Gutcher I saw the book in Dublin a few months ago and didn't buy it - I will next time we're there I'd never heard of him before so I've just looked him up An attack on him in a blog from the Jerusalem post headed "Avi Shlaim’s Anti-Israel Slime " quotes him as saying: "Benjamin Netanyahu is “a bellicose, right-wing Israeli nationalist, a rejectionist… and a reactionary.” His government is “the most aggressively right-wing, diplomatically intransigent, and overtly racist government in Israel’s history.” It is a government of “militant nationalists.” It “is in danger of drifting towards fascism.” He is “a jimcrack politician.” He is “the war-monger in chief.” In the Independent op-ed, he said “He (Netanyahu) is like a man who pretends to negotiate the division of a pizza while continuing to gobble it.” and Ehud Barak, Israel’s defense minister, according to Shlaim, “regards diplomacy as the extension of war by other means.” Moreover, he is a “bitkhonist, a security-ist who wants 100 percent security for Israel which means zero security for the Palestinians.” He certainly has a way with words - something to look forward to Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Gutcher Date: 30 Apr 18 - 10:17 AM For the period 1947--2006 Professor Avi Shlaims book "The Iron Wall" should be read by all commenting on this thread. Professor Shlaim is a Jew. To be read in the extended 2nd edition. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Apr 18 - 09:55 AM bob - facetious games if you don't mind... I have loftier standards than mere 'silly'... I'll leave silly to the other bloke... ""border" implicitly indicates two political or geographical areas." yes.. as any sensible person should recognise... But a sensible person can also see intended bias and loaded meaning behind calling it just 'Israel's Border'...!!!??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 30 Apr 18 - 09:40 AM Punky, you are playing silly, little, semantic games as the word "border" implicitly indicates two political or geographical areas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Apr 18 - 09:13 AM did i hear a little whisper the..."The one being discussed here is the Israel/Gaza border" ..what was that.. a little louder so we all can hear.."The one being discussed here is the Israel/Gaza border"... yes that's right.."the Israel/Gaza border".. So it's not just Israel's after all... it's shared with neighbours... See the difference a little clarification makes... Why, we might have thought a very biased chap only saw it as fortress Israel's heavily armed isolationist barricade... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:45 AM "Makes one wonder whether those who profess to care about the "Palestinian" people are really only professing their hate toward Israel. " Obviously you have not dipped into any of the Syria/Russia threads Who on earth has ignored what Syria is doing to civilians - certainly no-one here? Interesting that you should compare the two atrocities though - we are in agreement for once - one is as ba d as the other (though Israel has been at it MUCH LONGER) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:40 AM But as I'm English.. it's my border.. it's England's border to keep the Welsh out... It is the England/Wales border. The one being discussed here is the Israel/Gaza border. Both sides are entitled to restrict entry. If your new force takes responsibility for preventing unwelcome crossings, no more war. Happy days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:27 AM Makes one wonder whether those who profess to care about the "Palestinian" people are really only professing their hate toward Israel. Michael Freeman @M_S_Freeman After 7 days of aerial bombardment this is the situation in the Palestinian Yarmouk camp in Syria. Where are the @PSCupdates to protest, organize a rally or even make a statement? Nowhere. Because they have never cared about Palestinians just about hating Israel https://twitter.com/khaledabutoame |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:16 AM Interesting that Mexican immigrants are now demonstrating at the US border for the right to be let in Little doubt that our tam troll humanitarian will leap to the defence of the state when Trump's trrops start shooting them down (as he has defended every other act of mass murder) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:05 AM World Police |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:59 AM I'm going to have to ask my mrs about how effective she thinks the Welsh border is in keeping the English invaders out of her homeland.. But as I'm English.. it's my border.. it's England's border to keep the Welsh out... Borders... bordering on insanity... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:58 AM Just think of all the intractable wars of attrition that could be resolved by strategic implementation of ball pits and bouncy castles... Yes, but if on Israel's border they would have to be enforced by your 'United World Police Peace Keeping Force' to stop them becoming a battlefield when Israel's enemies tried to storm through them or fire over them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:54 AM Just think of all the intractable wars of attrition that could be resolved by strategic implementation of ball pits and bouncy castles... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:53 AM So somehow Israel is a magic special land that can have complete ownership of a border and plonk it where ever it dictates.. eh... Israel came into existence in 1948, within borders agreed by the UN. Those are the borders PFR. The borders between Israel and Egypt, Gaza, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. Like any country it is fully entitled to defend its borders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:50 AM Jim - I'm trying my best.. but sometimes it's a strain to resist taking the piss out of sheer wanton stupidity and prejudice... I'd say at the moment I'm maintaining a balance of about 75% ignoring... but could do better..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:48 AM No they'd rip it down and establish a neutral no man's land of fun fairs, petting zoos and bouncy castles... That would work fine, as long as no-one was allowed to cross through it or fire over it. Middle East finally sorted. Well done PFR. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:48 AM So somehow Israel is a magic special land that can have complete ownership of a border and plonk it where ever it dictates ??????????????????????????????????????????????????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:23 AM It's not about the border in any respect - it's about the right of people to be allowed to return home The U.N.s duty is to see that human rights and international laws are adhered to - they have failed miserably as they did in Syria Israel is riding roughshod over human rights, International laws and basic human decency - as do all terrorist states Incidentally - If I cant feed the troll, nobody should - remember - "one day at a time" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:16 AM "Would said force defend Israel's border?" No they'd rip it down and establish a neutral no man's land of fun fairs, petting zoos and bouncy castles... That'd confuse and take the steam out of all the over aggressive murderous arseholes...!!! .. and when it comes to ownership of borders... Is it France or Germany's border..??? is it Wales or England's border...??? is it..etc..etc..etc.. So somehow Israel is a magic special land that can have complete ownership of a border and plonk it where ever it dictates.. eh... like the next door neighbours just have to like it or lump it because it is 'Israels border'..??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:53 AM PFR, The region needs to be sorted out by a 'United World Police Peace Keeping Force' with genuine determination and real sharp teeth. Would said force defend Israel's border? That would solve the whole thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:41 PM I'd see that as an eloquent summary of something that applies in an awful lot of conflicts, not just international ones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Apr 18 - 01:26 PM bob - So on reflection, a blunt dismissal of "unadulterated, relativistic bullshit" tends to imply you think one side is far less to blame than the other.. your side of course.. If that's correct...??? Please refer to: "simple humanist response is there are too may bitter resentful intolerant ideologically fanatical old bastards, indoctrinating new young generations with their deeply entrenched hatred, on both sides of the divide...!!!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Apr 18 - 01:24 PM Incidentally HUMAN SHIELDS MORE MORE STILL Did your Anerican friend really use the word "unprecedented"? - Hardly Wonder could you give her a buzz and ask her if she condemns any of these!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Apr 18 - 01:05 PM Still can't see your point of putting up opinions by Trump appointees Bobad Nikky Haley " with some outlets speculating on Haley as a potential future Secretary of State[13][14][15] or President of the United States." Haley has stated that, as a daughter of immigrants, she believes the immigration laws should be enforced.[46] She voted in favor of a law that requires employers to be able to prove that newly hired employees are legal residents of the United States, and also requires all immigrants to carry documentation at all times proving that they are legally in the United States. Haley signed an "Arizona-style" law cracking down on illegal immigration in June 2011.[47] The law is the subject of a lawsuit initiated by the United States Justice Department on numerous grounds, including claims the immigration law violates the Supremacy Clause. Rob Godfrey, a spokesman for Haley, said, "If the feds were doing their job, we wouldn't have had to address illegal immigration reform at the state level. But, until they do, we're going to keep fighting in South Carolina to be able to enforce our laws."[48] Abortion Haley describes herself as pro-life and has supported legislation to restrict abortion rights.[6][49][50][51] She has stated "I'm not pro-life because the Republican Party tells me, I’m pro-life because all of us have had experiences of what it means to have one of these special little ones in our life."[51] Haley has consistently supported bills that give rights to a fetus and restrict abortion, except when the mother's life is at risk. In 2006, as a member of the South Carolina House of Representatives, Haley voted for the Penalties for Harming an Unborn Child/Fetus law, which asserted that an act of violence against a fetus is akin to a criminal act against the mother. She also voted for two separate bills that required a woman to first look at an ultrasound and then wait 24 hours before being permitted to have an abortion.[52] In 2016, she re-signed a new state law that bans abortions at 20 weeks of pregnancy.[51] Haley has voted in favor of some bills relating to abortion that were tabled or rejected, including the Inclusion of Unborn Child/Fetus in Definition for Civil Suits Amendment, Prohibiting Employment Termination Due to Abortion Waiting Period amendment, and Exempting Cases of Rape from Abortion Waiting Period amendment. The latter would have allowed specific cases of women to not have to wait the mandatory 24 hours before having an abortion.[53] Anti immigrant - anti choice for women - what else is such a right-winger going to say As you refuse to refer to the list of atrocities I put up, I assume you have no argument against it - until you prove otherwise my point remains It is Israel and people like you who use human shields - the world population of Jews in order to defend atrocities Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Apr 18 - 12:54 PM bob - btw... word of the day "relativistic".. cheers, I've not really encountered that one for years.. that's a terrific word.. It certainly brings back long forgotten memories of my degree years ago in the early 80s... nice one.. Though at this point I can't be certain you have used it correctly, because I've forgotten how to use it...????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Apr 18 - 12:46 PM bob - oh no it's not... .. your turn... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 29 Apr 18 - 12:27 PM simple humanist response is there are too may bitter resentful intolerant ideologically fanatical old bastards, indoctrinating new young generations with their deeply entrenched hatred, on both sides of the divide...!!! Sorry but that is simply pure, unadulterated, relativistic bullshit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Apr 18 - 12:22 PM Bob - simple humanist response is there are too may bitter resentful intolerant ideologically fanatical old bastards, indoctrinating new young generations with their deeply entrenched hatred, on both sides of the divide...!!! Simple solution - there aint one and never will be...??? The region needs to be sorted out by a 'United World Police Peace Keeping Force' with genuine determination and real sharp teeth.. ..so we won't be holding our breath for that then...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 29 Apr 18 - 12:01 PM Hamas must stop its “outrageous practice” of using Palestinians in Gaza, particularly children, as human shields when it attacks Israel, US Ambassador to the UN Nikki Haley told the Security Council on Thursday, at its monthly meeting on the Middle East. “Anyone who truly cares about children in Gaza should insist that Hamas immediately stop using children as cannon fodder in its conflict with Israel,” Haley said. “This is an issue that transcends the usual debates in this chamber. It is quite simply an issue of decency. Humanity itself loses when the barbaric practice of human shields is tolerated and unanswered.” |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Apr 18 - 12:00 PM Dave, two people on here who equate criticism of Israeli interference in the politics of other countries as antisemitic. Name and quote them then Dave, if you can! I have not seen anyone do that. I am not trying to demonize you over your remarks, as you and Jim constantly do to me. I hope I was wrong in my interpretation. I hope to be corrected. So please tell us, what did you mean about BDBJ, birds of a feather and terrorism? What did you mean when you linked BDBJ to "staged protests against Corbyn?" Please tell us why you do disapprove of BDBJ having been "exceptionally warm and friendly" with DUP as they are with every other party including Labour? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Apr 18 - 11:11 AM ??? Only four children dead - that's not good news for you Bobad Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Apr 18 - 11:09 AM I've got Natalie Portman's directorial debut A Tale of Love and Darkness [ 2015] downloaded & queued up on sky+ hard drive for future viewing... "based on the autobiographical novel of the same name by Israeli author Amos Oz. It takes place in Jerusalem in the last years of Mandatory Palestine and the first years of independent Israel" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 29 Apr 18 - 10:45 AM Darwin Award Candidate from Palestinian "March of Return" Riots |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Apr 18 - 09:01 AM "Natalie Portman" Sighhhhhh! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Apr 18 - 08:45 AM I just woke up after nearly a 'full nights' sleep.. bit bleary eyed.. Have we reached the stage yet where where get shrill accusations of anti semeticism hurled at us if we even dare criticise the DUP...?????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Apr 18 - 07:45 AM Big Grin :-D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Apr 18 - 06:50 AM Fair enough Dave I'll try 'one day at a time' and phone you when I'm having trouble Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Apr 18 - 06:28 AM It's the logic twists and verbal gymnastics that get on my nerves, Jim. I can discuss anything with anyone, even if they are a racist bigot, as long as they are honest and do not try to twist the honest words of others to suit their agenda. I may sound daft but give me an honest bigot over a manipulative schemer any day. At least you can have a good shouting match with the former and come away without feeling your words will be chopped up, stirred and used against you later. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Apr 18 - 06:09 AM Agree, but mustn't let anybody use these discussions as a platform for their proven antisemitism Dave A swift kick up their arses does no harm as long as we don’t dwell on it Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:19 AM Quite so, Jim. There is only one of two people on here who equate criticism of Israeli interference in the politics of other countries as antisemitic. At least one of those is anti anything not British and Christian anyway so we can safely guess at his motives for the sudden interest in antisemitism. Ignoring him doesn't make him go away but it annoys the hell out of him ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:10 AM Another wrong sort of Jew falls foul of the wonderful regime that welcomes criticism Natalie Portman |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Apr 18 - 04:37 AM ""We want to live in East Jerusalem under Israeli rule." Does thE opinion of one writer mean everything I have listed is justifiable Bobad ? Answers on a plain postcard please!! Youre 'avin a larf, aren't you ? "You are suggesting a Jewish conspiracy against Corbyn?" Are you accusing the Jews of what the Israelis are doing Keith? You are the only one to have done so Do not make this a "Jewish" thing - the Israelis have already done their best to do this by using them as human shields against punishment for their crimes against humanity The "Jews" were never consulted when this elite group made a deal with this terrorist linked group, just as the British people were never consulted when the British Government were never consulted when Theresa May bunged the same terrorist linked party with £1 billion of the taxpayers money (and were condemned for doing so) STOP BLAMING THE JEWS - THAT IS ANTISEMITIC Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:59 AM PFR, oh... and even as only a 1/4 jew I am very suspicious of the motives of the DUP for ingratiating with right wing jewish leaders.. Every other party including Labour cultivates relations with the BDBJ. They are not " right wing jewish leaders..." They are elected representatives. Dave, Putting words in people's mouths is just one of his tactics. Quoting out of context is another, as is misquoting and then denying it. If I have done that against you it was unintentional, but please identify what I have got wrong. Here are your actual statements with my comments, Arkush and his colleagues recently met in Belfast with DUP leader Arlene Foster and the party’s Westminster leader Nigel Dodds, whom he described as having been “exceptionally warm and friendly. Arkush is the President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews. He meets with all the parties including Labour. The DUP is known to support terrorist activities. Birds of a feather. So Jews and DUP are "birds of a feather" on terrorism? And we wonder why there are staged protests against Corbyn? You are suggesting a Jewish conspiracy against Corbyn? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:21 AM See what I mean, PFR? Putting words in people's mouths is just one of his tactics. Quoting out of context is another, as is misquoting and then denying it. It is little wonder he gets ignored and laughed at. Fortunately I know from experience that no one else interprets things in the same way so anything he says can be safely discounted. The people that matter know the truth. Still it gives us a good laugh on a Sunday morning I suppose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Apr 18 - 02:51 AM oh... and even as only a 1/4 jew I am very suspicious of the motives of the DUP for ingratiating with right wing jewish leaders... After all a party founded in fundamentalist evangelical christianity wouldn't usually have the most positive attitudes and doctrines towards jews...??? As I hinted earlier, for British right wingers sometimes mutually benefitial alliances with some right wing jews can be convenient for as long as expedient.. ..convenient jews... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Apr 18 - 02:37 AM When it comes to deliberately jumping to the wrong conclusions in order to discredit decent folks, some of the most persistent false accusers use spring-heels and trampolines...!!! I wish I could get up this early on a Sunday morning with nothing better to do.. I'm off to bed to try to get a few hours kip... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Apr 18 - 02:04 AM Whatever you think of how effectively BDBJ represents its community, there is no justification for maligning it as Dave did with all of you cheering him on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Apr 18 - 01:58 AM You people deny that a community can have a representative body. In practice it can and does. The BDBJ is more representative of its community than is the Muslim Council of Britain. If I said that parties should not engage with MCB, as Dave did about the BDBJ, I would rightly be hounded off this forum. If I said they were "birds of a feather" with terrorists, as Dave did about the BDBJ, I would rightly be hounded off this forum. If I said they were trying to subvert British politics, as Dave did about the BDBJ, I would rightly be hounded off this forum. Such double standards against Jews is blatantly anti-Semitic. It is disappointing to see you all defending it. You are the reason your party is tearing itself apart. You are unable to acknowledge or see it even in yourselves, but it is unacceptable to everyone else. We saw it over Naz Shah, Wadsworth and the mural, and here it is again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Apr 18 - 12:14 AM "Hamas’s Gaza leader, Yahya Al-Sinwar says (in Arabic) that they will 'tear down the wall and tear out their (meaning Israeli’s) hearts.'" bob - but don't you agree angry folks can say the stupidest things in the heat of argument...??? Especially if furiously inarticulate with rage... If someone shouted at you "I'll tear you a new one...!!!!!" or "I'll rip your head off and shit down your neck...!!!!!!" would you take that literally as a serious threat...???? come on.. let's get real.... If however, someone ranted at you "I'll shove a baseball bat up your arse...!!!!!!" Now that might be more of a plausible concern, which you should consider not beyond the realms of reality, and take appropriate back steps to avoid... Similarly if a hot headed Israeli soldier or officer yelled about protesters in heat of the moment "I'll f@ckin slaughter the lot of them....!!!!!"...?????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 28 Apr 18 - 10:19 PM "We want to live in East Jerusalem under Israeli rule....The Palestinian Authority did not succeed in West Bank and it won't succeed in East Jerusalem...We don't believe in the PA...We identify more with Israel...Nobody want's to give up their Israeli ID...People are scared to condemn the violence due to implicit threats by "other" authorities..."-Ramadan Dabash, head of Sur Baher, a Palestinian neighborhood in E.Jerusalem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:55 PM "Hamas’s Gaza leader, Yahya Al-Sinwar says (in Arabic) that they will 'tear down the wall and tear out their (meaning Israeli’s) hearts.' " Pathetic threats only by a group without a trained army, without adequate weapons to take on the local boy scouts, and totally incapable of ever seriously making such a threat against a State with some of the best trained and best armed troops in the entire Middle East - AS WELL AS BEING NUCLEAR FACILITATED - no more than meaningless and desperate taunts Meanwhile, back in reality - Israel has murdered it's opponents by the thousand, has driven millions from their homes, has destroyed entire towns, villages and settlements - homes, hospitals (sometimes with the patients in them) has used heavy artillery, planes, tanks, chemical and anti-personnel weapons in built-up areas - as well as facilitating the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees At the present time, Israel is slaughtering unarmed protesters - four deaths reported on Friday (in the Israeli press - probably at least double that) and more to come before the week-end is over As well as the history of slaughter, Israeli police and soldiers have arrested and imprisoned (often without trial) many thousands of Gazans - including children According to the Israeli Human Rights Group, B'tselem, at the end of February, this year, there were AROUND 370 PALESTINIAN MINORS BEING HELD IN CUSTODY If that were not enough - they have stolen vast areas of territory in order to make room for Jewish Settlers and over half the Israeli people have given their support to a programme of ethnic cleansing Apart from the Palestinians, Israeli authorities have issued an order to African refugees (who they refer to as "cancer" that they should leave Israel or be imprisoned - they have the support of half the Israeli people for this too The Isrealis have done this in the full knowledge that they will never have to face trial for their war crimes and atrocities because they will be bailed out by U.S. vetoes - as they have been for decades Now - tell us again Bobad, what did Yahya Al-Sinwar threaten to do? Are you serious!!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: bobad Date: 28 Apr 18 - 07:24 PM Hamas’s Gaza leader, Yahya Al-Sinwar says (in Arabic) that they will 'tear down the wall and tear out their (meaning Israeli’s) hearts.' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Apr 18 - 07:21 PM "! The same would be true of any organisation that claimed to speak for all Christians. " Absolutely - nail on the head I knew many Jews when I lived in Manchester - many were atheists, some were Communists (Holocaust survivors and their families in particular) This is yet another case of the Establishment (and its lackeys, like K*****) attempting to make their idols fireproof from their abominable behaviour THIS IS THE EFFECT screaming "antisemitism" has on The Jewish people every time somebody criticises Israel or one of its support groups - it feeds antisemitism Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:15 PM "The Community" doesn't have a view. Members of that community have views, a great many views, which are liable to contradict each other. That is very much true in the Jewish tradition, where disagreement has a honourable tradition - there's a text in the Mishrah "Any disagreement that is for God's sake, it will yield something that lasts. Any disagreement that is not for God's sake, it will not yield something that lasts. " And there are many Jews who do not see the Board of Deputies as speaking for them, and do not see it as in any way representing their views. The same is true of the Muslim Council. The same would be true of any organisation that claimed to speak for all Christians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:58 PM "Yes they are. " No they are not SYNAGOGUE ATTENDANCE Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:54 PM The Board of Deputies is the only democratically elected, cross-communal, representative body in the Jewish community. It comprises nearly 300 deputies directly elected by synagogues and communal organisations, from youth movements, to social welfare charities and regional councils. In addition, there are also a number of under-35 observers, appointed by synagogues and organisations to supplement their representation and to ensure that a new generation of communally minded activists can contribute to our work on behalf of the community. Each synagogue and institution elects one or more Deputy, depending on the size of that particular body, with elections occurring every three years. It is where governments, parties and the media go to get the views of the community. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:52 PM So they are elected by a select narrow focus elite of probably mostly self appointed individuals...????? yeah - that seems very fair and democratic representation for the mass of ordinary diverse jews............ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:47 PM Even an elected body does not represent the people who voted except in the sense that it should recognise its duty to act as their agent. A lawyer can represent me in court. But only to a very limited extent does that lawyer have a right to speak for me. For the head of the Board of Deputies to claim the right to make political assertions about Jews in general and their political thinking is to step well beyond his proper bounds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:37 PM Kevin, "It is nonsense to suggest any criticism of anyone Jewish for anything whatsoever is antisemitic." Yes it is nonsense. I suspect that the Board of Deputies of British Jews has as much reason to be taken as representing the views of all British Jews as the Muslim Council of Britain has of representing the views of all British Muslims. They are unelected. In 2016 a survey done by Policy Exchange found that about 2% of British Muslims felt that MCB represented them. Jim, They can only be described as "representing" anybody if they are an elected body - they are not Yes they are. The Board receives Deputies elected by individual synagogues, confederations of synagogues, and other organisations within the Jewish community such as charities and youth groups. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Apr 18 - 01:19 PM "It certainly doesn't. " They can only be described as "representing" anybody if they are an elected body - they are not They are made up of representatives proposed by bodies like synagogues, pressure groups, etc., who suggest names (or reject them) according to their own preferences - basically a self-appointed group Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Apr 18 - 01:00 PM On the same basis of what Keith writes about the elected basis of the Board of Deputies it would be fair to say that the British government validly represent my views. It certainly doesn't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:57 PM Anyway, I've just had a new guitar delivered - half price - all is well in the world... Serotonin levels are raised.. well at least until Monday morning... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:51 PM DtG - I try my best.. but sometimes my absurdist sense of humour and injustice, gets the better of me... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:51 PM "It is nonsense to suggest any criticism of anyone Jewish for anything whatsoever is antisemitic. Yes it is." I'm confused, Keith. Does that mean you agree with the statement, or disagree with it? I think it means you accept that it is nonsensical to suggest that any criticism of anything Jewish is ipso facto antisemitic, but it's as well to make sure. My initial reading was the other way round. ............ I suspect that the Board of Deputies of British Jews has as much reason to be taken as representing the views of all British Jews as the Muslim Council of Britain has of representing the views of all British Muslims. Which is to say, a lot less reason than it seems to believe, or as it is sometimes treated as having. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:49 PM convenient jews / inconvenient jews...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:40 PM Jim, The Board of Deputies of British Jews represent some of the Jewish community only Most actually. Enough to make it anti-Semitic to say parties should not talk to them (they all do), or to link them with staged protests against Corbyn or to terrorism as Dave does. "The Board of Deputies is the only democratically elected, cross-communal, representative body in the Jewish community. It comprises nearly 300 deputies directly elected by synagogues and communal organisations, from youth movements, to social welfare charities and regional councils. In addition, there are also a number of under-35 observers, appointed by synagogues and organisations to supplement their representation and to ensure that a new generation of communally minded activists can contribute to our work on behalf of the community. Each synagogue and institution elects one or more Deputy, depending on the size of that particular body, with elections occurring every three years." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:31 PM Which is why he is best ignored or talked around, PFR. Many of us have had enough of trying to have a sensible discussion with someone who constantly talks through his arse. We have tried everything else and only ignoring him seems to work. Jim is happy to continue challenging the ridiculous statements but I am not. Just keep on talking past him and keeping mentions to a minimum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:27 PM No doubt K**** categorises jews as either 'right jews or wrong jews'.. If you mean me, no but some are bad and some good as in any demographic. Do you deny any of those attitudes I listed are anti-Semitic? Which ones? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:26 PM The Board of Deputies of British Jews represent some of the Jewish community only - they are a conservative Jewish Group who back the Isreali regime in everything it does and describes any Muslim criticism of the Israeli State as "terrorist" (yet they welcome the advances of a party with terrorist links "Who in their right mind can condone certain actions of the Israeli Government." TRY THIS LADY IAINS You are a newbie to all this, aren't you - welcome to Wonderland - have you brought Alice with you? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:19 PM No doubt K**** categorises jews as either 'right jews or wrong jews'... Those he finds tolerable and expedient to his warped ideology, and others he disregards completely as if they don't exist... ... maybe, if only these wrong jews could just be made to vanish and not be around to undermine his idea of a perfect world order...????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:17 PM Dave, The JVL speak out against Israel. They must be anti-Semitic That is not anti-Semitic The JVL say that the CAA are unfairly targeting Corbyn and are challenging their charitable status. They must be antisemitic. Those things are not anti-Semitic. The JVL say that the existing Jewish leadership are wrong. They must be antisemitic. That is not anti-Semitic. It is nonsense to suggest any criticism of anyone Jewish for anything whatsoever is antisemitic. Yes it is. The BDBJ represents the British Jewish community. It is anti-Semitic to suggest it is wrong for any party to have friendly talks with them, as you just did. It is anti-Semitic to link them to "staged protests against Corbyn" as you just did. It is anti-Semitic to link them to terrorism, as you just did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:11 PM Didn't we just have a thread about useful idiots...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:10 PM The JVL speak out against Israel. They must be antisemitic The JVL say that the CAA are unfairly targeting Corbyn and are challenging their charitable status. They must be antisemitic. The JVL say that the existing Jewish leadership are wrong. They must be antisemitic. It is nonsense to suggest any criticism of anyone Jewish for anything whatsoever is antisemitic. Kevin, you have just seen the scenario you described in action. Funny though that criticism of the Muslim community for not doing anything about terrorism or for nurturing sex criminals is not Islamophobic though isn't it. PFR - Yes, it has me gobsmacked as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Apr 18 - 11:58 AM The BDBJ represents the British Jewish community. It is anti-Semitic to suggest it is wrong for any party to have friendly talks with them, as Dave just did. It is anti-Semitic to link them to "staged protests against Corbyn" as Dave just did. It is anti-Semitic to link them to terrorism, as Dave just did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Iains Date: 28 Apr 18 - 11:17 AM "Criticism of supporters of the Israeli regime = antisemitism every time" That is a ridiculous statement. Who in their right mind can condone certain actions of the Israeli Government. They are in breach of International law with their continued occupation of the Golan Heights. There continued attacks on Syria are acts of war. Their threatening to destroy the latest generation Russian air defences if installed in Syria. Their heavy handed actions in Gaza Their continued defiance of UN resolutions. Unfortunately they are an out of control outlaw state relying on the US to constantly back them up. When the bullies finally get a bloody nose hopefully the rest of the world will keep out and then maybe a permanent peace in the Middle East can be negotiated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 28 Apr 18 - 11:12 AM "You are suggesting a Jewish conspiracy against Corbyn? You are making anti-Semitic statements and accusations here Dave." How did the world end up in such a crazy state where idiots can make such stupid accusations, whilst so deluded they actually believe they hold the moral high ground...???? totally bonkers...!!!! "you can not dare call our obvious conspiracy going on right under your noses 'a conspiracy', because if you do we will get all our gullible easily lead friends to gang up on you and call you nasty names, and make sure you get fired from your job, and made a pariah in the news and social media.. We will destroy you..."...???????? Of course it's not a 'jewish conspiracy'..who here would ever be so racist...??? But it can most justifiably be identified as an Israeli Regime conspiracy, which should be discussed rationally, and opposed with righteous conviction, unafraid of malicious retribution... Just thought I'd pop in to mention that... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Apr 18 - 10:58 AM Spot on Kevin but you are on a hiding to nothing trying to convince some folk of that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Apr 18 - 10:04 AM So once an accusation of antisemitism is made, it is provisionally to be assumed as justified, and anyone who expresses doubt as to its validity is provisionally to be accused of antisemitism, and anyone who expresses doubt as to the validity of that accusation.... And so on ad Infinatum? That would be particularly unfortunate in a context where it is seriously claimed that it is "antisemitic" to favour the same kind of boycott of Israel that helped change South Africa for the better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Apr 18 - 09:56 AM I was not addressing anyone in particular, Jim. I just like to provide an alternate view to the one that makes is propounded so often on here ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Apr 18 - 09:13 AM ting your Time Dave Criticism of supporters of the Isreali regime = antisemitism every time Lat him rot in hos own hatred Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:53 AM What does the Jewish communal leadership really want? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:33 AM Dave, Arkush and his colleagues recently met in Belfast with DUP leader Arlene Foster and the party’s Westminster leader Nigel Dodds, whom he described as having been “exceptionally warm and friendly. Arkush is the President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews. He meets with all the parties including Labour. The DUP is known to support terrorist activities. Birds of a feather. So Jews and DUP are "birds of a feather" on terrorism? And we wonder why there are staged protests against Corbyn? You are suggesting a Jewish conspiracy against Corbyn? You are making anti-Semitic statements and accusations here Dave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:05 AM Jewish Voice for Labour A pleasant change from the nonsense spouted by some other groups and those who support groups with known terrorist connections. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:00 AM Arkush and his colleagues recently met in Belfast with DUP leader Arlene Foster and the party’s Westminster leader Nigel Dodds, whom he described as having been “exceptionally warm and friendly.” The DUP is known to support terrorist activities. Birds of a feather. Little wonder that they do not want Corbyn in power and will do all they can to prevent it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Apr 18 - 07:57 AM Dave, DUP is friend of the community and Israel Every UK Party would so describe itself Dave. From your link, "Jewish support for the Labour Party has dropped under the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, with issues of antisemitism and his stance on Israel pushing some toward the Right. “Corbyn is not a Labour Party leader who is trusted by the Jewish community,” Arkush said, pointing to reports that while the leftist party enjoys strong support in London, that trend is lower in Jewish areas of the capital. “Jews did not feel able to support Labour,” he said. He noted, for instance, that even Jewish Labour Movement leader Jeremy Newmark lost to Tory MP Mike Freer in Finchley and Golders Green – the constituency with the highest percentage of Jewish voters in the country. Freer’s majority was, however, significantly cut." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Apr 18 - 07:08 AM Food for thought DUP is friend of the community and Israel And we wonder why there are staged protests against Corbyn? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Apr 18 - 06:30 AM Prime Minister Itzhak Rabin, The assassination of Yitzhak Rabin took place on 4 November 1995 (12th of Marcheshvan, 5756 on the Hebrew calendar) at 21:30, at the end of a rally in support of the Oslo Accords at the Kings of Israel Square in Tel Aviv. The assassin, an Israeli ultranationalist named Yigal Amir, radically opposed Rabin's peace initiative and particularly the signing of the Oslo Accords. Prelude The assassination of Israeli Prime Minister and Defence Minister Yitzhak Rabin was the culmination of an anti-violence rally in support of the Oslo peace process.[1] Rabin, despite his extensive service in the Israeli military, was disparaged personally by right-wing conservatives and Likud leaders who perceived the Oslo peace process as an attempt to forfeit the occupied territories. National religious conservatives and Likud party leaders believed that withdrawing from any "Jewish" land was heresy. Rallies, organized partially by Likud, became increasingly extreme in tone. Likud leader (and future Prime Minister) Benjamin Netanyahu accused Rabin's government of being "removed from Jewish tradition ... and Jewish values." Netanyahu addressed protesters of the Oslo movement at rallies where posters portrayed Rabin in a Nazi SS uniform or being the target in the cross-hairs of a sniper.[2] Rabin accused Netanyahu of provoking violence, a charge which Netanyahu strenuously denied.[3] Netanyahu's advisor Zalman Shoval replied that Netanyahu had in fact tried to silence the anti-Rabin chants and had not seen the SS poster.[4] Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Apr 18 - 04:40 AM McGrath, Many in Israel speak out against its policy and actions, but no harm ever comes to them is Prime Minister Itzhak Eabin, assassinated in 1995 forgotten? He was not killed for opposing the government. He was the government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:51 AM We still have a postcard from our late fried, Tom Munnelly, wh attended the International Ballad Conference in Jerusalem twenty-odd years ago - five simple words summed up his feelings - "Beam me up Scotty" Tom, a somewhat gentle, non-political humanist, found the atmosphere of the place very upsetting - he described 'Jackbooted young soldiers strutting their superiority from the airport onwards' He swore he'd never go back, even though he was later presented with an opportunity to do so Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:33 AM As I've said before, I was in the Old City of Jerusalem in December, the day after Trump declared Jerusalem to be the capital of Israel (more-or-less). There was a peaceful, well-organized Arab demonstration going on at Damascus Gate. The demonstration followed all the rules of non-violent resistance. The next day, there was tear gas and rubber bullets at the same place, and I'm glad I wasn't there. But news reports said that the second day was as nonviolent and well-organized as the first. That makes me wonder about the Gaza demonstrations. I've seen nothing that makes me think the Gaza demonstrators were violent or threatening - there was just a huge number of them. The link I provided seemed like propaganda to me. I don't think the Israelis are conducting themselves as honorably as they claim. They're playing power games, and they're desperate to keep the upper hand. And I don't trust Netanyahu. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:16 AM Joe Your "Understanding Gaza" link is a somewhat dishonest piece which makes Israeli actions a 'defence against invasion' one claiming that what is happening needs to be understood in contest of imminent invasion - unarmed demonstrators "invading" a nuclear facilitated power - really!! This is what these demonstrations are about One in three refugees world wide is Palestinian. There are about 6.5 million Palestinian refugees worldwide. More than 3.8 million Palestinian refugees and their descendants displaced in 1948 are registered for humanitarian assistance with the United Nations. The claim has always been that there is no room to allow the refugees to return to their homes, yet three years ago Netanyahu put out an appear for all Jewish People TO RETURN EN MASSE to Israel, making a nonsense of the 'No room at the Inn' excuse - the appeal was rejected angrily by Jewish leaders throughout the world as grotesque - at the time, some pointed out the 'Ethnically Pure' aspects of a Jewish State and its historical implications to many Jews old enough to remember what had happened to them. I highly recommend Scharma's 'Story of the Jews' which I saw first time round (I see it is available as a box set from Sky) I remember discussing it with Mike Grosvenor Myer on this forum - he said it was, in his opinion, an accurate account of Jewish history, though he had a few criticisms I hadn't noticed Both of us were chilled by the long interview with the extremist Zionist settler towards the end of the series Scharma's history, and other researches are available in book form Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Apr 18 - 11:46 PM Dang, PFR, The Story of the Jews sounds really interesting, but it doesn't play in the US. I hope it comes out on DVD here. -Joe, another who thinks he has Jewish ancestors- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Stilly River Sage Date: 27 Apr 18 - 11:09 PM http://mondoweiss.net/2018/04/palestinian-international-condemnation/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Apr 18 - 10:53 PM mudcat mates - I make no secret or song and dance that I'm 1/4 jew by blood and 100% humanist agnostic, verging on atheist, by intellect... I didn't even know of my jewish ancestory until my mum decided to let me in on the big family secret when I was 18 or 21 - cant remember which...?? I have had absolutely no direct contact with jewish upbringing or culture. But I'm not bothered as I am indifferent/antagonistic to all religions and ritualistic cultures... [which is what I suspect my parents hoped for...???] Anyway, long story short, now I'm nearly 60, I've decided I owe my jewish 1/4 at least the curiosity of watching The Story of the Jews Simon Schama's epic 5 hour documentary series... I'm only part way through episode 1 - it's not easy going.. hence the toilet break and distraction of writing this.. If I make it through the whole series in as short a time as feasible, maybe I can gain a deeper understanding of the current dire conflict and Israel's pernicious influence/interference in domestic UK politics...??? ..wish me luck mates... back to the slog... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Apr 18 - 09:56 PM I get a regular email titled "Viewpoint Israel," which appears to be from some part of the Israeli government. It's often interesting, but sometimes it seems to be Israeli propaganda. This week, I got a page from them titled Understanding Gaza (click). I tend to support Israel and I think it's a wonderful place that has a right to survive and prosper, but the Netanyahu regime makes it harder for me to have a favorable opinion of Israel. I don't like all the ranting that takes place on both sides. I'd like to see peace and coexistence and cooperation between interdependent but autonomous states of Israel and Palestine. I don't see any hope of that happening yet. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Apr 18 - 06:47 PM "No, Jimmy, lying is what you do when you make false statements. " "Jimmy ?" Always a sign of someone in trouble I have presented you with the facts as I know them in a respectful way - you respond to those facts with personal abuse - nothing new there - Your abusive responses only make my point for me I think I've said all that needs to be said to you Israel is a terrorist state that is ethnically cleansing Palestinians to create a mono-cultural state - nothing new there - I was born around the time another such terrorist state was targeting the Jewish people At the time, the German people could safely claim that they didn't realise the full extent of what was happening to the Jews - The WANNSEE CONFERENCE made sure of that Unfortunately the same cannot be said of THE ISRAELI PEOPLE, around 80% of the population believe Jewish People should get preferential treatment and around half openly support the ethnic cleansing of Arabs. Add to this the fact that African migrants are "CANCERS" and THE GOVERNMENT is prepared to act on this belief, the claim that modern Israel is a terrorist state a reality The HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS who once told me "never again, not to anybody" must be spinning in their graves. INTERESTING COMPARISON HERE |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Apr 18 - 04:51 PM I thought "wee" and "job" were two separate things... number one and number two, like... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:30 PM Bruce - in the wise words of St Sen of Mudcat... "The analogy of playground fights and teachers reminded me of my days on playground duty. I couldn't have ignored the spats, sent the children elsewhere or banned them permanently from the school. I sometimes did try diversion tactics. (Initiate a new game or give one or two a wee 'job' to do for example) But the folk on here are NOT children, and could surely moderate their remarks and state their views without becoming abusive, belligerent and insulting." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:24 PM Sorry, mate, but you have absolutely no idea about my fact-finding exploits on this topic and you won't glean them from anything I've posted in this thread. That's the way I'm keeping it for now as I find your presence in threads to lead inevitably to acrimony. Cheers for now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:21 PM Then how can you even have an opinion on the topic, if you willfully refuse to try to get the facts? The previous post was REQUEST by JC, since he can't bother to look for himself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:17 PM Incredibly boring, Bruce. I'm not reading it and I'd bet that no-one else is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:11 PM Subject: RE: BS: deleting thread - ok.. no big deal..but From: beardedbruce - PM Date: 27 Apr 18 - 02:55 PM You mean "How many Palestinians have been killed by attacking the Israeli Border"? "Since the mass protests began March 30, at least 40 Palestinians have been killed and more than 5,500 injured, according to the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs." YOUR failure to actually LOOK before you post obvious lies is NOT my problem. Here are some earlier - YOU claim "Silence up to now" I claim that is another of your lies. https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/31/middleeast/gaza-protests-un-intl/index.html http://www.djournal.com/news/nation-world/the-latest-officials-say-palestinians-wounded-in-protest/article_3cff8c98-644a-54c5-b0 https://news.un.org/en/story/2018/04/1008362 http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/04/26/un-envoy-urges-action-to-prevent-gaza-escalation.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:09 PM JC:"I've answered you "provable lies on the other thread - no poinbt of repeating it here I don't tell lies - certainly not in debates " Two more lies. ubject: RE: BS: deleting thread - ok.. no big deal..but From: beardedbruce - PM Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:52 PM Proven in the other thread- you want them repeated here? ------------------------------------------------------------------ CARROLL:"The point of this exceptionally brave man's statement is that the UN (and the rest of the world) are staying silent about what was happening " FACT: As usual, YOUR point can be proven to be false- The UN HAS spoken about this. Why lie when the truth is in YOUR favor? "Geneva (AFP) - The UN rights chief on Friday urged Israeli forces to stop using excessive force against Palestinian protesters and called for troops who have committed abuses "to be held accountable." "Every week, we witness instances of use of lethal force against unarmed demonstrators," the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein, said in a statement. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Further lie on your part CARROLL:"There is a strange blanket of silence in all this - no casualty figures since the beginning of the month says what needs to be said about internet balance " FACT:"Forty-two Palestinians have been killed by Israeli fire since March 30, according to the UN. " FROM MY POSTED ARTICLE BY THE UN ------------------------------------------------------------------- Proven lies by Jim Carroll, as stated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:06 PM No, Jimmy, lying is what you do when you make false statements. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:05 PM One more time, robomatic. Jim did not blow up the Gaza thread. If anyone is remotely interested in checking, the thread ended on April 4, by the way. In its last couple of days it spluttered to as vile and negative an ending as I've seen here in a long time and I asked a moderator to consider closing the thread. The answer I received indicated that the mod hadn't dipped into the thread for a while but would look at it and consider the request. A final silly post from bobad gave the mod just the cue they needed. You are very bitter about the closure. Too bad. I've had several of my threads closed, hijacked or drifted out of existence. I don't care. There'll be a next time. There always is. Think of a thread as a helium-filled party balloon. Once you've launched it it goes its own way, no longer under your control, and you are happy with that otherwise you'd have kept it on a rope. Let it go. Yes, really. April 4. Over three weeks ago! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:05 PM PFR, When a post is made, and the NEXT JC post says that something quoted in that post was never on the net, I do not think I am dealing with a reasonable debater. I supply my quote, and the clickey for him to verify it. JC throws out claims, phrased as factual, without regard to providing any supporting information- and then jumps on others to prove things, that he refuses to even read when provided the information that indicates his opinion is not true to the facts. I don't want a brawl, but I will not tolerate his abuse. Nor should others. JC states: "The point of this exceptionally brave man's statement is that the UN (and the rest of the world) are staying silent about what was happening I can'r remember that ever happening in a case like this were dozens of unarmed demonstrators were being shot down" I have shown that the UN HAS commented on this from 30 March onward- HIS claim is FALSE. Isn't that a valid point to bring up in a debate? Or do I have to let him make up things, and accept them, as he demands proof of anything others say? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:03 PM "Lying" is screaming Jew hater" at everbody who critiises Isreali atrocities and staying silent when one of their own trivialises the murder of six million Jews" by describing calling for such action as "silly" That takes a special type of dishonesty, but you pair seem to have mastered it without too much trouble Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:00 PM "Jim Carroll, you blew up the GAZA thread that I started for just these protests. " No I did not - I don't destroy threads especially ones that interest me I have linked to everything I have claimed - none are "badly written" nor are they dishonest "Why kill when there is no need?" Ask your Israeli friends - they come with a long history of doing just that - theyey beven elected the main culprit Prime Minister after the worst one (3,500 unarmed refugees) I've answered you "provable lies on the other thread - no poinbt of repeating it here I don't tell lies - certainly not in debates When the statemant I put up was made nobody had done a damn thing - that was the point of his statement This slaughter has been going on since the end of March - now th UN has got around to demanding it stop The latest casualties are at least 38 unarmed protesters and more than 1600 wounded As I said - I don't tell lies Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Apr 18 - 02:38 PM "So I have to tolerate JC's outright, provable lies?" Bruce - well.. why not at least try... Experienced reasonable debaters can challenge the veracity of an opponent's claims without resorting to shouting insults of "LIAR!!!".. and kicking off a bar room brawl... What we lack here is a barman with a baseball bat quick to nip disagreeable situations in the bud.. allowing other patrons to continue socialising peaceably... Rather than Cops called and storming in to permanently close down the establishment... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: robomatic Date: 27 Apr 18 - 02:10 PM I think I understand the Palestinian side in this protest. They get to directly challenge a border they despise, and any losses on their side they can claim purely due to Israeli over-reaction. Not exactly Sharpville, but they can establish a resonance with it in the minds of many. I don't understand the Israeli side at this time. I believe there are effective means of non-lethal (a term I am inherently suspicious of) or at least near non-lethal deterrence. This is an old game with which all the parties are long familiar. Israel has previously announced the discovery and destruction of a long and deep tunnel. So the protest is not just a protest. It is cover. But I don't recall any armed confrontation. Why kill when there is no need? So maybe there is other stuff going on that we are not aware of. I was in school with a Palestinian during the Entebbe affair in '76. You may remember that Idi Amin provided a safe haven in Uganda for the Palestinian terrorists to hold their Jewish hostages while they demanded that Israel release convicted terrorists they held. The situation seemed to allow Israel no alternatives. Israel made conciliatory noises for a time and I distinctly remember the Palestinian assuring the rather uninformed Americans we were with that Israel was playing for time. I quietly shared his opinion. We had no idea for what. Jim Carroll, you blew up the GAZA thread that I started for just these protests. You have started your own thread with a perfectly legitimate link to a well written essay (which you could have contributed to the already established thread); I will not blow this thread up with the kind of froth you flamed in the old one. If you can keep yourself under control, which I doubt, you've got yourself a thread. Don't screw it up with your usual conflationary nonsense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:54 PM So I have to tolerate JC's outright, provable lies? - See HIS comments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:48 PM Bruce - have you not read all the posts today about us trying [again] a new non antagonistic non insulting approach to debating respectfully with each other..??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:42 PM Sorry, this clickey is https://www.yahoo.com/news/un-condemns-israels-excessive-force-gaza-105323911.html Isn't TODAY current enough for you, Jim? Perhaps the Palestinians would have better luck if you wre NOT trying to help them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:35 PM Further lie on your par CARROLL:"There is a strange blanket of silence in all this - no casualty figures since the beginning of the month says what needs to be said about internet balance " FACT:"Forty-two Palestinians have been killed by Israeli fire since March 30, according to the UN. " FROM MY POST At least TRY to let us think you might actually be reading posts... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:32 PM Not sure what a two year old article has to do with this Bruce, nore the fact that an Israeli policeman was jailed for killing a Palestinian Youth (regular occurrence nowadays) You are not responding to what is happening There is a strange blanket of silence in all this - no casualty figures since the beginning of the month says what needs to be said about internet balance This seems to be the latesr information of the killings so far https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/latest-six-palestinian-deaths-brings-to-28-those-killed-in-protests-on-gaza-israel-border-836101.html A conspiracy of silence as the ex ambassador said Perhaps we'll have better luck at a proper response to Bauch's accusations agains his former employers with THIS , though somehow, I doubt it Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:12 PM In the US, the Washington Post is to the Left of center. I point out that BOTH sides are making statements- and it is up to US to determine the facts as best we can, not to simply accept one side OR THE OTHER as TRUE. "The point of this exceptionally brave man's statement is that the UN (and the rest of the world) are staying silent about what was happening " As usual, YOUR point can be proven to be false- The UN HAS spoken about this. Why lie when the truth is in YOUR favor? "Geneva (AFP) - The UN rights chief on Friday urged Israeli forces to stop using excessive force against Palestinian protesters and called for troops who have committed abuses "to be held accountable." "Every week, we witness instances of use of lethal force against unarmed demonstrators," the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein, said in a statement. "Warnings by the United Nations and others have seemingly gone unheeded, as the approach of the security forces from week to week does not seem to have changed," he added. Forty-two Palestinians have been killed by Israeli fire since March 30, according to the UN. " "It is difficult to see how children, even those throwing stones, can present a threat of imminent death or serious injury to heavily protected security force personnel," he added. The Israeli army says its troops only open fire in self-defence or to stop protesters attempting to breach the barrier separating the territory from Israel." https://www.yahoo.com/news/un-condemns-israels-excessive-force-gaza-105323911.html But I would STILL like to see video OF THE ENTIRE AREA before stating what the TRUTH actually is- IMO, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein might have a small bias in his statement. At least as large as the Israeli Army's. THEY can be held responsible for their actions- HE cannot, for his words. https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/25/middleeast/israeli-police-officer-jailed-intl/index.html "Judge Daniel Teperberg sentenced Deri to nine months in prison, and ordered him to pay Nuwara's family 50,000 Israeli shekels, or nearly $14,000." As opposed to the Palestinians: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-07-01/the-palestinian-incentive-program-for-killing-jews "Whoever said crime doesn't pay hasn't talked to the family of a Palestinian terrorist. For the Palestine Liberation Organization and the related Palestinian Authority, the killers of Jewish Israelis are considered "martyrs." And as such, their families are paid for the service these murderers have done for the Palestinian cause. This has come to light this week after a Palestinian, Mohammed Tarayra, stabbed Hallel Yaffa Ariel, a 13-year-old Israeli girl, as she was sleeping in her bed. The stabbing was part of a wave of attacks by Palestinians who have for nearly eight months been shooting, stabbing and running down Jews with the encouragement of social media and popular songs." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:06 PM Many in Israel speak out against its policy and actions, but no harm ever comes to them is Prime Minister Itzhak Eabin, assassinated in 1995 forgotten? Though I was primarily thinking of Moral Courage. It needs a lot of that to invite the (antisemitic) label "self-hating Jew". But the potential is there for physical danger as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:51 PM ""In a statement Friday, the army said “hundreds of rioters” tried to burn the fence and infiltrate Israel. It says the crowd approached the fence and threw grenades, explosives, firebombs and rocks as they tried to set the fence on fire. It says troops opened fire “in accordance with the rules of engagement” and halted the crowd" What else is an army that is shooting down demonstrators going to say? You omitted the link Bruce - the article says much more than your selected quote https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/the-latest-group-of-gaza-protesters-moves-toward-fence/2018/04/27/0663c532-4a29-11e8-8082-105a446d19b8_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.55afa4dcc84a At this point is woul be advisable not to get bogged down in Keith's smokescreen of "liberal democracies" The only onse he selects as liberal are those which either agree with him or stay silent The point of this exceptionally brave man's statement is that the UN (and the rest of the world) are staying silent about what was happening I can'r remember that ever happening in a case like this were dozens of unarmed demonstrators were being shot down Enen the invasions of Gaza were minutely covered it seems "The Times they are a-changing" - and the Express and the Daily Mail and the Independent... (worried about being accused of "antisemitism maybe!!) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:43 PM It seems to me that the "facts" are what is in dispute- Should there be video, perhaps it can be determined. IMO Israel SHOULD release video of the entire area- but I doubt if the Western media would release it unedited. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:41 PM Yes, Mr. Shaw. "...the army said..." "The military says..." "stating facts. Of course, you can include your views, as comment is free, but facts are sacred. --------------------------------------------------------------------- "The soldiers were not defending themselves. Nobody was endangered – neither Israeli citizens nor the soldiers. " --------------------------------------------------------------------- " “hundreds of rioters” tried to burn the fence and infiltrate Israel. It says the crowd approached the fence and threw grenades, explosives, firebombs and rocks as they tried to set the fence on fire. It says troops opened fire “in accordance with the rules of engagement” and halted the crowd." --------------------------------------------------------------------- So, if it were the SOLDIERS who "threw grenades, explosives, firebombs and rocks" you would consider that "Nobody was endangered"?? I thought the only way to determine facts, when not there, is to look at what BOTH sides say, and try to reason out what ACTUALLY happened. You seem to indicate yo will only listen to one side, and accept their statements as "fact" without any other consideration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:37 PM PFR, Is that a verifiable fact...??? Yes. There is a free media and opposition that constantly put the case against government policy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:24 PM "...the army said..." "The military says..." In the words of Mandy Rice-Davies... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: David Carter (UK) Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:19 PM Mordechai Vanunu. Some harm came to him, he spent 18 years in prison. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:09 PM "In a statement Friday, the army said “hundreds of rioters” tried to burn the fence and infiltrate Israel. It says the crowd approached the fence and threw grenades, explosives, firebombs and rocks as they tried to set the fence on fire. It says troops opened fire “in accordance with the rules of engagement” and halted the crowd. The military says in other incidents Friday, Palestinian crowds rolled burning tires, hurled rocks and flown kites with flaming objects attached with the goal of damaging the fence and other Israeli targets." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:08 PM "Many in Israel speak out against its policy and actions, but no harm ever comes to them as it so often does to dissidents in less liberal democracies." Is that a verifiable fact...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:03 PM Why brave Kevin? Many in Israel speak out against its policy and actions, but no harm ever comes to them as it so often does to dissidents in less liberal democracies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:00 PM It seems to me that he's stating facts. Of course, you can include your views, as comment is free, but facts are sacred. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Apr 18 - 11:55 AM It is an interesting statement from a prominent Israeli. His views on the matter are not widely held in Israel, and as he says, not among the democratic governments of the world either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Apr 18 - 11:54 AM Clearly Ilam Baruch, the former ambassador concerned, is a very brave man. |
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Subject: BS: Israel's Sharpville From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Apr 18 - 11:10 AM Can we have a rational debate on this important statement by a former Israeli ambassador to South Africa without having the thread closed down? Let's see, shall we! THIS IS OUR BLOODY SUNDAY Jim Carroll |
