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BS: Israel's Sharpville

Jim Carroll 27 Apr 18 - 11:10 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Apr 18 - 11:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Apr 18 - 11:55 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 18 - 12:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Apr 18 - 12:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Apr 18 - 12:08 PM
beardedbruce 27 Apr 18 - 12:09 PM
David Carter (UK) 27 Apr 18 - 12:19 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 18 - 12:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Apr 18 - 12:37 PM
beardedbruce 27 Apr 18 - 12:41 PM
beardedbruce 27 Apr 18 - 12:43 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 18 - 12:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Apr 18 - 01:06 PM
beardedbruce 27 Apr 18 - 01:12 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 18 - 01:32 PM
beardedbruce 27 Apr 18 - 01:35 PM
beardedbruce 27 Apr 18 - 01:42 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Apr 18 - 01:48 PM
beardedbruce 27 Apr 18 - 01:54 PM
robomatic 27 Apr 18 - 02:10 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Apr 18 - 02:38 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 18 - 03:00 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 18 - 03:03 PM
beardedbruce 27 Apr 18 - 03:05 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 18 - 03:05 PM
beardedbruce 27 Apr 18 - 03:06 PM
beardedbruce 27 Apr 18 - 03:09 PM
beardedbruce 27 Apr 18 - 03:11 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 18 - 03:17 PM
beardedbruce 27 Apr 18 - 03:21 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 18 - 03:24 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Apr 18 - 03:30 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 18 - 04:51 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 18 - 06:47 PM
Joe Offer 27 Apr 18 - 09:56 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Apr 18 - 10:53 PM
Acme 27 Apr 18 - 11:09 PM
Joe Offer 27 Apr 18 - 11:46 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 18 - 03:16 AM
Joe Offer 28 Apr 18 - 03:33 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 18 - 03:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Apr 18 - 04:40 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 18 - 06:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Apr 18 - 07:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Apr 18 - 07:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Apr 18 - 08:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Apr 18 - 08:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Apr 18 - 08:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Apr 18 - 08:53 AM

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Subject: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 11:10 AM

Can we have a rational debate on this important statement by a former Israeli ambassador to South Africa without having the thread closed down?
Let's see, shall we!
THIS IS OUR BLOODY SUNDAY
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 11:54 AM

Clearly Ilam Baruch, the former ambassador concerned, is a very brave man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 11:55 AM

It is an interesting statement from a prominent Israeli.
His views on the matter are not widely held in Israel, and as he says, not among the democratic governments of the world either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:00 PM

It seems to me that he's stating facts. Of course, you can include your views, as comment is free, but facts are sacred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:03 PM

Why brave Kevin?
Many in Israel speak out against its policy and actions, but no harm ever comes to them as it so often does to dissidents in less liberal democracies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:08 PM

"Many in Israel speak out against its policy and actions, but no harm ever comes to them as it so often does to dissidents in less liberal democracies."

Is that a verifiable fact...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:09 PM

"In a statement Friday, the army said “hundreds of rioters” tried to burn the fence and infiltrate Israel. It says the crowd approached the fence and threw grenades, explosives, firebombs and rocks as they tried to set the fence on fire. It says troops opened fire “in accordance with the rules of engagement” and halted the crowd.

The military says in other incidents Friday, Palestinian crowds rolled burning tires, hurled rocks and flown kites with flaming objects attached with the goal of damaging the fence and other Israeli targets."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:19 PM

Mordechai Vanunu. Some harm came to him, he spent 18 years in prison.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:24 PM

"...the army said..."


"The military says..."


In the words of Mandy Rice-Davies... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:37 PM

PFR,
Is that a verifiable fact...???

Yes. There is a free media and opposition that constantly put the case against government policy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:41 PM

Yes, Mr. Shaw.

"...the army said..."


"The military says..."

"stating facts. Of course, you can include your views, as comment is free, but facts are sacred.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
"The soldiers were not defending themselves. Nobody was endangered – neither Israeli citizens nor the soldiers. "
---------------------------------------------------------------------
" “hundreds of rioters” tried to burn the fence and infiltrate Israel. It says the crowd approached the fence and threw grenades, explosives, firebombs and rocks as they tried to set the fence on fire. It says troops opened fire “in accordance with the rules of engagement” and halted the crowd."
---------------------------------------------------------------------


So, if it were the SOLDIERS who "threw grenades, explosives, firebombs and rocks" you would consider that "Nobody was endangered"??






I thought the only way to determine facts, when not there, is to look at what BOTH sides say, and try to reason out what ACTUALLY happened. You seem to indicate yo will only listen to one side, and accept their statements as "fact" without any other consideration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:43 PM

It seems to me that the "facts" are what is in dispute- Should there be video, perhaps it can be determined. IMO Israel SHOULD release video of the entire area- but I doubt if the Western media would release it unedited.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:51 PM

""In a statement Friday, the army said “hundreds of rioters” tried to burn the fence and infiltrate Israel. It says the crowd approached the fence and threw grenades, explosives, firebombs and rocks as they tried to set the fence on fire. It says troops opened fire “in accordance with the rules of engagement” and halted the crowd"
What else is an army that is shooting down demonstrators going to say?
You omitted the link Bruce - the article says much more than your selected quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/the-latest-group-of-gaza-protesters-moves-toward-fence/2018/04/27/0663c532-4a29-11e8-8082-105a446d19b8_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.55afa4dcc84a
At this point is woul be advisable not to get bogged down in Keith's smokescreen of "liberal democracies"
The only onse he selects as liberal are those which either agree with him or stay silent
The point of this exceptionally brave man's statement is that the UN (and the rest of the world) are staying silent about what was happening
I can'r remember that ever happening in a case like this were dozens of unarmed demonstrators were being shot down
Enen the invasions of Gaza were minutely covered
it seems "The Times they are a-changing" - and the Express and the Daily Mail and the Independent... (worried about being accused of "antisemitism maybe!!)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:06 PM


Many in Israel speak out against its policy and actions, but no harm ever comes to them
is Prime Minister Itzhak Eabin, assassinated in 1995 forgotten? Though I was primarily thinking of Moral Courage. It needs a lot of that to invite the (antisemitic) label "self-hating Jew". But the potential is there for physical danger as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:12 PM

In the US, the Washington Post is to the Left of center.


I point out that BOTH sides are making statements- and it is up to US to determine the facts as best we can, not to simply accept one side OR THE OTHER as TRUE.




"The point of this exceptionally brave man's statement is that the UN (and the rest of the world) are staying silent about what was happening "

As usual, YOUR point can be proven to be false- The UN HAS spoken about this. Why lie when the truth is in YOUR favor?


"Geneva (AFP) - The UN rights chief on Friday urged Israeli forces to stop using excessive force against Palestinian protesters and called for troops who have committed abuses "to be held accountable."

"Every week, we witness instances of use of lethal force against unarmed demonstrators," the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein, said in a statement.

"Warnings by the United Nations and others have seemingly gone unheeded, as the approach of the security forces from week to week does not seem to have changed," he added.

Forty-two Palestinians have been killed by Israeli fire since March 30, according to the UN. "

"It is difficult to see how children, even those throwing stones, can present a threat of imminent death or serious injury to heavily protected security force personnel," he added.

The Israeli army says its troops only open fire in self-defence or to stop protesters attempting to breach the barrier separating the territory from Israel."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/un-condemns-israels-excessive-force-gaza-105323911.html


But I would STILL like to see video OF THE ENTIRE AREA before stating what the TRUTH actually is- IMO, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein might have a small bias in his statement. At least as large as the Israeli Army's. THEY can be held responsible for their actions- HE cannot, for his words.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/25/middleeast/israeli-police-officer-jailed-intl/index.html

"Judge Daniel Teperberg sentenced Deri to nine months in prison, and ordered him to pay Nuwara's family 50,000 Israeli shekels, or nearly $14,000."


As opposed to the Palestinians:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-07-01/the-palestinian-incentive-program-for-killing-jews


"Whoever said crime doesn't pay hasn't talked to the family of a Palestinian terrorist. For the Palestine Liberation Organization and the related Palestinian Authority, the killers of Jewish Israelis are considered "martyrs." And as such, their families are paid for the service these murderers have done for the Palestinian cause.

This has come to light this week after a Palestinian, Mohammed Tarayra, stabbed Hallel Yaffa Ariel, a 13-year-old Israeli girl, as she was sleeping in her bed. The stabbing was part of a wave of attacks by Palestinians who have for nearly eight months been shooting, stabbing and running down Jews with the encouragement of social media and popular songs."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:32 PM

Not sure what a two year old article has to do with this Bruce, nore the fact that an Israeli policeman was jailed for killing a Palestinian Youth (regular occurrence nowadays)
You are not responding to what is happening
There is a strange blanket of silence in all this - no casualty figures since the beginning of the month says what needs to be said about internet balance
This seems to be the latesr information of the killings so far
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/latest-six-palestinian-deaths-brings-to-28-those-killed-in-protests-on-gaza-israel-border-836101.html
A conspiracy of silence as the ex ambassador said
Perhaps we'll have better luck at a proper response to Bauch's accusations agains his former employers with THIS , though somehow, I doubt it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:35 PM

Further lie on your par

CARROLL:"There is a strange blanket of silence in all this - no casualty figures since the beginning of the month says what needs to be said about internet balance "

FACT:"Forty-two Palestinians have been killed by Israeli fire since March 30, according to the UN. " FROM MY POST


At least TRY to let us think you might actually be reading posts...


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:42 PM

Sorry, this clickey is https://www.yahoo.com/news/un-condemns-israels-excessive-force-gaza-105323911.html


Isn't TODAY current enough for you, Jim?

Perhaps the Palestinians would have better luck if you wre NOT trying to help them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:48 PM

Bruce - have you not read all the posts today
about us trying [again] a new non antagonistic non insulting approach to debating respectfully with each other..???


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:54 PM

So I have to tolerate JC's outright, provable lies? - See HIS comments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 02:10 PM

I think I understand the Palestinian side in this protest. They get to directly challenge a border they despise, and any losses on their side they can claim purely due to Israeli over-reaction. Not exactly Sharpville, but they can establish a resonance with it in the minds of many. I don't understand the Israeli side at this time. I believe there are effective means of non-lethal (a term I am inherently suspicious of) or at least near non-lethal deterrence. This is an old game with which all the parties are long familiar. Israel has previously announced the discovery and destruction of a long and deep tunnel. So the protest is not just a protest. It is cover. But I don't recall any armed confrontation. Why kill when there is no need?

So maybe there is other stuff going on that we are not aware of. I was in school with a Palestinian during the Entebbe affair in '76. You may remember that Idi Amin provided a safe haven in Uganda for the Palestinian terrorists to hold their Jewish hostages while they demanded that Israel release convicted terrorists they held. The situation seemed to allow Israel no alternatives. Israel made conciliatory noises for a time and I distinctly remember the Palestinian assuring the rather uninformed Americans we were with that Israel was playing for time. I quietly shared his opinion. We had no idea for what.

Jim Carroll, you blew up the GAZA thread that I started for just these protests. You have started your own thread with a perfectly legitimate link to a well written essay (which you could have contributed to the already established thread); I will not blow this thread up with the kind of froth you flamed in the old one. If you can keep yourself under control, which I doubt, you've got yourself a thread. Don't screw it up with your usual conflationary nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 02:38 PM

"So I have to tolerate JC's outright, provable lies?"

Bruce - well.. why not at least try...
Experienced reasonable debaters can challenge the veracity of an opponent's claims
without resorting to shouting insults of "LIAR!!!"..
and kicking off a bar room brawl...

What we lack here is a barman with a baseball bat quick to nip disagreeable situations in the bud..
allowing other patrons to continue socialising peaceably...

Rather than Cops called and storming in to permanently close down the establishment...


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:00 PM

"Jim Carroll, you blew up the GAZA thread that I started for just these protests. "
No I did not - I don't destroy threads especially ones that interest me
I have linked to everything I have claimed - none are "badly written" nor are they dishonest
"Why kill when there is no need?"
Ask your Israeli friends - they come with a long history of doing just that - theyey beven elected the main culprit Prime Minister after the worst one (3,500 unarmed refugees)
I've answered you "provable lies on the other thread - no poinbt of repeating it here
I don't tell lies - certainly not in debates
When the statemant I put up was made nobody had done a damn thing - that was the point of his statement
This slaughter has been going on since the end of March - now th UN has got around to demanding it stop
The latest casualties are at least 38 unarmed protesters and more than 1600 wounded
As I said - I don't tell lies
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:03 PM

"Lying" is screaming Jew hater" at everbody who critiises Isreali atrocities and staying silent when one of their own trivialises the murder of six million Jews" by describing calling for such action as "silly"
That takes a special type of dishonesty, but you pair seem to have mastered it without too much trouble
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:05 PM

PFR,

When a post is made, and the NEXT JC post says that something quoted in that post was never on the net, I do not think I am dealing with a reasonable debater. I supply my quote, and the clickey for him to verify it.

JC throws out claims, phrased as factual, without regard to providing any supporting information- and then jumps on others to prove things, that he refuses to even read when provided the information that indicates his opinion is not true to the facts.

I don't want a brawl, but I will not tolerate his abuse. Nor should others.


JC states:
"The point of this exceptionally brave man's statement is that the UN (and the rest of the world) are staying silent about what was happening
I can'r remember that ever happening in a case like this were dozens of unarmed demonstrators were being shot down"

I have shown that the UN HAS commented on this from 30 March onward- HIS claim is FALSE. Isn't that a valid point to bring up in a debate? Or do I have to let him make up things, and accept them, as he demands proof of anything others say?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:05 PM

One more time, robomatic. Jim did not blow up the Gaza thread. If anyone is remotely interested in checking, the thread ended on April 4, by the way. In its last couple of days it spluttered to as vile and negative an ending as I've seen here in a long time and I asked a moderator to consider closing the thread. The answer I received indicated that the mod hadn't dipped into the thread for a while but would look at it and consider the request. A final silly post from bobad gave the mod just the cue they needed. You are very bitter about the closure. Too bad. I've had several of my threads closed, hijacked or drifted out of existence. I don't care. There'll be a next time. There always is. Think of a thread as a helium-filled party balloon. Once you've launched it it goes its own way, no longer under your control, and you are happy with that otherwise you'd have kept it on a rope. Let it go.

Yes, really. April 4. Over three weeks ago!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:06 PM

No, Jimmy, lying is what you do when you make false statements.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:09 PM

JC:"I've answered you "provable lies on the other thread - no poinbt of repeating it here
I don't tell lies - certainly not in debates "

Two more lies.

ubject: RE: BS: deleting thread - ok.. no big deal..but
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:52 PM

Proven in the other thread- you want them repeated here?

------------------------------------------------------------------
CARROLL:"The point of this exceptionally brave man's statement is that the UN (and the rest of the world) are staying silent about what was happening "

FACT: As usual, YOUR point can be proven to be false- The UN HAS spoken about this. Why lie when the truth is in YOUR favor?


"Geneva (AFP) - The UN rights chief on Friday urged Israeli forces to stop using excessive force against Palestinian protesters and called for troops who have committed abuses "to be held accountable."

"Every week, we witness instances of use of lethal force against unarmed demonstrators," the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein, said in a statement.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Further lie on your part

CARROLL:"There is a strange blanket of silence in all this - no casualty figures since the beginning of the month says what needs to be said about internet balance "

FACT:"Forty-two Palestinians have been killed by Israeli fire since March 30, according to the UN. " FROM MY POSTED ARTICLE BY THE UN
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Proven lies by Jim Carroll, as stated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:11 PM

Subject: RE: BS: deleting thread - ok.. no big deal..but
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 02:55 PM

You mean "How many Palestinians have been killed by attacking the Israeli Border"?


"Since the mass protests began March 30, at least 40 Palestinians have been killed and more than 5,500 injured, according to the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs."

YOUR failure to actually LOOK before you post obvious lies is NOT my problem.

Here are some earlier - YOU claim "Silence up to now"

I claim that is another of your lies.




https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/31/middleeast/gaza-protests-un-intl/index.html

http://www.djournal.com/news/nation-world/the-latest-officials-say-palestinians-wounded-in-protest/article_3cff8c98-644a-54c5-b0

https://news.un.org/en/story/2018/04/1008362

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/04/26/un-envoy-urges-action-to-prevent-gaza-escalation.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:17 PM

Incredibly boring, Bruce. I'm not reading it and I'd bet that no-one else is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:21 PM

Then how can you even have an opinion on the topic, if you willfully refuse to try to get the facts?


The previous post was REQUEST by JC, since he can't bother to look for himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:24 PM

Sorry, mate, but you have absolutely no idea about my fact-finding exploits on this topic and you won't glean them from anything I've posted in this thread. That's the way I'm keeping it for now as I find your presence in threads to lead inevitably to acrimony. Cheers for now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:30 PM

Bruce - in the wise words of St Sen of Mudcat...

"The analogy of playground fights and teachers reminded me of my days on playground duty. I couldn't have ignored the spats, sent the children elsewhere or banned them permanently from the school. I sometimes did try diversion tactics. (Initiate a new game or give one or two a wee 'job' to do for example)
But the folk on here are NOT children, and could surely moderate their remarks and state their views without becoming abusive, belligerent and insulting.
"


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 04:51 PM

I thought "wee" and "job" were two separate things... number one and number two, like...


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 06:47 PM

"No, Jimmy, lying is what you do when you make false statements. "
"Jimmy ?"
Always a sign of someone in trouble
I have presented you with the facts as I know them in a respectful way - you respond to those facts with personal abuse - nothing new there -
Your abusive responses only make my point for me
I think I've said all that needs to be said to you
Israel is a terrorist state that is ethnically cleansing Palestinians to create a mono-cultural state - nothing new there - I was born around the time another such terrorist state was targeting the Jewish people
At the time, the German people could safely claim that they didn't realise the full extent of what was happening to the Jews - The WANNSEE CONFERENCE made sure of that
Unfortunately the same cannot be said of THE ISRAELI PEOPLE, around 80% of the population believe Jewish People should get preferential treatment and around half openly support the ethnic cleansing of Arabs.
Add to this the fact that African migrants are "CANCERS" and THE GOVERNMENT is prepared to act on this belief, the claim that modern Israel is a terrorist state a reality
The HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS who once told me "never again, not to anybody" must be spinning in their graves.
INTERESTING COMPARISON HERE


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 09:56 PM

I get a regular email titled "Viewpoint Israel," which appears to be from some part of the Israeli government. It's often interesting, but sometimes it seems to be Israeli propaganda. This week, I got a page from them titled Understanding Gaza (click).

I tend to support Israel and I think it's a wonderful place that has a right to survive and prosper, but the Netanyahu regime makes it harder for me to have a favorable opinion of Israel.

I don't like all the ranting that takes place on both sides. I'd like to see peace and coexistence and cooperation between interdependent but autonomous states of Israel and Palestine. I don't see any hope of that happening yet.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 10:53 PM

mudcat mates - I make no secret or song and dance that I'm 1/4 jew by blood
and 100% humanist agnostic, verging on atheist, by intellect...
I didn't even know of my jewish ancestory until my mum decided to let me in on the big family secret
when I was 18 or 21 - cant remember which...??
I have had absolutely no direct contact with jewish upbringing or culture.
But I'm not bothered as I am indifferent/antagonistic to all religions and ritualistic cultures...
[which is what I suspect my parents hoped for...???]

Anyway, long story short, now I'm nearly 60, I've decided I owe my jewish 1/4 at least the curiosity of watching
The Story of the Jews

Simon Schama's epic 5 hour documentary series...

I'm only part way through episode 1 - it's not easy going..
hence the toilet break and distraction of writing this..

If I make it through the whole series in as short a time as feasible,
maybe I can gain a deeper understanding of the current dire conflict
and Israel's pernicious influence/interference in domestic UK politics...???

..wish me luck mates... back to the slog...


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Acme
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 11:09 PM

http://mondoweiss.net/2018/04/palestinian-international-condemnation/


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 11:46 PM

Dang, PFR, The Story of the Jews sounds really interesting, but it doesn't play in the US. I hope it comes out on DVD here.
-Joe, another who thinks he has Jewish ancestors-


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:16 AM

Joe
Your "Understanding Gaza" link is a somewhat dishonest piece which makes Israeli actions a 'defence against invasion' one claiming that what is happening needs to be understood in contest of imminent invasion - unarmed demonstrators "invading" a nuclear facilitated power - really!!
This is what these demonstrations are about
One in three refugees world wide is Palestinian. There are about 6.5 million Palestinian refugees worldwide. More than 3.8 million Palestinian refugees and their descendants displaced in 1948 are registered for humanitarian assistance with the United Nations.
The claim has always been that there is no room to allow the refugees to return to their homes, yet three years ago Netanyahu put out an appear for all Jewish People TO RETURN EN MASSE to Israel, making a nonsense of the 'No room at the Inn' excuse - the appeal was rejected angrily by Jewish leaders throughout the world as grotesque - at the time, some pointed out the 'Ethnically Pure' aspects of a Jewish State and its historical implications to many Jews old enough to remember what had happened to them.
I highly recommend Scharma's 'Story of the Jews' which I saw first time round (I see it is available as a box set from Sky)
I remember discussing it with Mike Grosvenor Myer on this forum - he said it was, in his opinion, an accurate account of Jewish history, though he had a few criticisms I hadn't noticed
Both of us were chilled by the long interview with the extremist Zionist settler towards the end of the series
Scharma's history, and other researches are available in book form
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:33 AM

As I've said before, I was in the Old City of Jerusalem in December, the day after Trump declared Jerusalem to be the capital of Israel (more-or-less). There was a peaceful, well-organized Arab demonstration going on at Damascus Gate. The demonstration followed all the rules of non-violent resistance. The next day, there was tear gas and rubber bullets at the same place, and I'm glad I wasn't there.
But news reports said that the second day was as nonviolent and well-organized as the first.

That makes me wonder about the Gaza demonstrations. I've seen nothing that makes me think the Gaza demonstrators were violent or threatening - there was just a huge number of them. The link I provided seemed like propaganda to me. I don't think the Israelis are conducting themselves as honorably as they claim. They're playing power games, and they're desperate to keep the upper hand.

And I don't trust Netanyahu.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:51 AM

We still have a postcard from our late fried, Tom Munnelly, wh attended the International Ballad Conference in Jerusalem twenty-odd years ago - five simple words summed up his feelings - "Beam me up Scotty"
Tom, a somewhat gentle, non-political humanist, found the atmosphere of the place very upsetting - he described 'Jackbooted young soldiers strutting their superiority from the airport onwards'
He swore he'd never go back, even though he was later presented with an opportunity to do so
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 04:40 AM

McGrath,
Many in Israel speak out against its policy and actions, but no harm ever comes to them is Prime Minister Itzhak Eabin, assassinated in 1995 forgotten?

He was not killed for opposing the government. He was the government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 06:30 AM

Prime Minister Itzhak Rabin,

The assassination of Yitzhak Rabin took place on 4 November 1995 (12th of Marcheshvan, 5756 on the Hebrew calendar) at 21:30, at the end of a rally in support of the Oslo Accords at the Kings of Israel Square in Tel Aviv. The assassin, an Israeli ultranationalist named Yigal Amir, radically opposed Rabin's peace initiative and particularly the signing of the Oslo Accords.

Prelude
The assassination of Israeli Prime Minister and Defence Minister Yitzhak Rabin was the culmination of an anti-violence rally in support of the Oslo peace process.[1] Rabin, despite his extensive service in the Israeli military, was disparaged personally by right-wing conservatives and Likud leaders who perceived the Oslo peace process as an attempt to forfeit the occupied territories.
National religious conservatives and Likud party leaders believed that withdrawing from any "Jewish" land was heresy. Rallies, organized partially by Likud, became increasingly extreme in tone. Likud leader (and future Prime Minister) Benjamin Netanyahu accused Rabin's government of being "removed from Jewish tradition ... and Jewish values." Netanyahu addressed protesters of the Oslo movement at rallies where posters portrayed Rabin in a Nazi SS uniform or being the target in the cross-hairs of a sniper.[2] Rabin accused Netanyahu of provoking violence, a charge which Netanyahu strenuously denied.[3] Netanyahu's advisor Zalman Shoval replied that Netanyahu had in fact tried to silence the anti-Rabin chants and had not seen the SS poster.[4]

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 07:08 AM

Food for thought

DUP is friend of the community and Israel

And we wonder why there are staged protests against Corbyn?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 07:57 AM

Dave,
DUP is friend of the community and Israel

Every UK Party would so describe itself Dave.

From your link,
"Jewish support for the Labour Party has dropped under the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, with issues of antisemitism and his stance on Israel pushing some toward the Right.

“Corbyn is not a Labour Party leader who is trusted by the Jewish community,” Arkush said, pointing to reports that while the leftist party enjoys strong support in London, that trend is lower in Jewish areas of the capital.

“Jews did not feel able to support Labour,” he said. He noted, for instance, that even Jewish Labour Movement leader Jeremy Newmark lost to Tory MP Mike Freer in Finchley and Golders Green – the constituency with the highest percentage of Jewish voters in the country. Freer’s majority was, however, significantly cut."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:00 AM

Arkush and his colleagues recently met in Belfast with DUP leader Arlene Foster and the party’s Westminster leader Nigel Dodds, whom he described as having been “exceptionally warm and friendly.”

The DUP is known to support terrorist activities. Birds of a feather. Little wonder that they do not want Corbyn in power and will do all they can to prevent it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:05 AM

Jewish Voice for Labour

A pleasant change from the nonsense spouted by some other groups and those who support groups with known terrorist connections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:33 AM

Dave,
Arkush and his colleagues recently met in Belfast with DUP leader Arlene Foster and the party’s Westminster leader Nigel Dodds, whom he described as having been “exceptionally warm and friendly.

Arkush is the President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews.
He meets with all the parties including Labour.

The DUP is known to support terrorist activities. Birds of a feather.

So Jews and DUP are "birds of a feather" on terrorism?

And we wonder why there are staged protests against Corbyn?

You are suggesting a Jewish conspiracy against Corbyn?

You are making anti-Semitic statements and accusations here Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 08:53 AM

What does the Jewish communal leadership really want?


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