BS: Israel's Sharpville

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 12:00 PM

Dave,
two people on here who equate criticism of Israeli interference in the politics of other countries as antisemitic.

Name and quote them then Dave, if you can!
I have not seen anyone do that.

I am not trying to demonize you over your remarks, as you and Jim constantly do to me.
I hope I was wrong in my interpretation. I hope to be corrected.

So please tell us, what did you mean about BDBJ, birds of a feather and terrorism?

What did you mean when you linked BDBJ to "staged protests against Corbyn?"

Please tell us why you do disapprove of BDBJ having been "exceptionally warm and friendly" with DUP as they are with every other party including Labour?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 12:01 PM

Hamas must stop its “outrageous practice” of using Palestinians in Gaza, particularly children, as human shields when it attacks Israel, US Ambassador to the UN Nikki Haley told the Security Council on Thursday, at its monthly meeting on the Middle East.

“Anyone who truly cares about children in Gaza should insist that Hamas immediately stop using children as cannon fodder in its conflict with Israel,” Haley said. “This is an issue that transcends the usual debates in this chamber. It is quite simply an issue of decency. Humanity itself loses when the barbaric practice of human shields is tolerated and unanswered.”

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 12:22 PM

Bob - simple humanist response is there are too may bitter resentful intolerant ideologically fanatical old bastards,
indoctrinating new young generations with their deeply entrenched hatred,
on both sides of the divide...!!!

Simple solution - there aint one and never will be...???

The region needs to be sorted out by a 'United World Police Peace Keeping Force' with genuine determination and real sharp teeth..

..so we won't be holding our breath for that then...???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 12:27 PM

simple humanist response is there are too may bitter resentful intolerant ideologically fanatical old bastards,
indoctrinating new young generations with their deeply entrenched hatred,
on both sides of the divide...!!!

Sorry but that is simply pure, unadulterated, relativistic bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 12:46 PM

bob - oh no it's not...

.. your turn...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 12:54 PM

bob - btw... word of the day "relativistic"..

cheers, I've not really encountered that one for years.. that's a terrific word..

It certainly brings back long forgotten memories of my degree years ago in the early 80s... nice one..

Though at this point I can't be certain you have used it correctly, because I've forgotten how to use it...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 01:05 PM

Still can't see your point of putting up opinions by Trump appointees Bobad
Nikky Haley
" with some outlets speculating on Haley as a potential future Secretary of State[13][14][15] or President of the United States."
Haley has stated that, as a daughter of immigrants, she believes the immigration laws should be enforced.[46] She voted in favor of a law that requires employers to be able to prove that newly hired employees are legal residents of the United States, and also requires all immigrants to carry documentation at all times proving that they are legally in the United States. Haley signed an "Arizona-style" law cracking down on illegal immigration in June 2011.[47] The law is the subject of a lawsuit initiated by the United States Justice Department on numerous grounds, including claims the immigration law violates the Supremacy Clause. Rob Godfrey, a spokesman for Haley, said, "If the feds were doing their job, we wouldn't have had to address illegal immigration reform at the state level. But, until they do, we're going to keep fighting in South Carolina to be able to enforce our laws."[48]
Abortion
Haley describes herself as pro-life and has supported legislation to restrict abortion rights.[6][49][50][51] She has stated "I'm not pro-life because the Republican Party tells me, I’m pro-life because all of us have had experiences of what it means to have one of these special little ones in our life."[51]
Haley has consistently supported bills that give rights to a fetus and restrict abortion, except when the mother's life is at risk. In 2006, as a member of the South Carolina House of Representatives, Haley voted for the Penalties for Harming an Unborn Child/Fetus law, which asserted that an act of violence against a fetus is akin to a criminal act against the mother. She also voted for two separate bills that required a woman to first look at an ultrasound and then wait 24 hours before being permitted to have an abortion.[52] In 2016, she re-signed a new state law that bans abortions at 20 weeks of pregnancy.[51]

Haley has voted in favor of some bills relating to abortion that were tabled or rejected, including the Inclusion of Unborn Child/Fetus in Definition for Civil Suits Amendment, Prohibiting Employment Termination Due to Abortion Waiting Period amendment, and Exempting Cases of Rape from Abortion Waiting Period amendment. The latter would have allowed specific cases of women to not have to wait the mandatory 24 hours before having an abortion.[53]

Anti immigrant - anti choice for women - what else is such a right-winger going to say

As you refuse to refer to the list of atrocities I put up, I assume you have no argument against it - until you prove otherwise my point remains

It is Israel and people like you who use human shields - the world population of Jews in order to defend atrocities
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 01:24 PM

Incidentally
HUMAN SHIELDS
MORE
MORE STILL

Did your Anerican friend really use the word "unprecedented"? - Hardly
Wonder could you give her a buzz and ask her if she condemns any of these!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 01:26 PM

bob - So on reflection, a blunt dismissal of "unadulterated, relativistic bullshit" tends to imply
you think one side is far less to blame than the other.. your side of course..

If that's correct...???

Please refer to:

"simple humanist response is there are too may bitter resentful intolerant ideologically fanatical old bastards,
indoctrinating new young generations with their deeply entrenched hatred,
on both sides of the divide...!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:41 PM

I'd see that as an eloquent summary of something that applies in an awful lot of conflicts, not just international ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:53 AM

PFR,
The region needs to be sorted out by a 'United World Police Peace Keeping Force' with genuine determination and real sharp teeth.

Would said force defend Israel's border? That would solve the whole thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:16 AM

"Would said force defend Israel's border?"


No they'd rip it down and establish a neutral no man's land of fun fairs, petting zoos and bouncy castles...

That'd confuse and take the steam out of all the over aggressive murderous arseholes...!!!



.. and when it comes to ownership of borders...

Is it France or Germany's border..???

is it Wales or England's border...???

is it..etc..etc..etc..

So somehow Israel is a magic special land that can have complete ownership of a border and plonk it where ever it dictates.. eh...
like the next door neighbours just have to like it or lump it because it is 'Israels border'..???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:23 AM

It's not about the border in any respect - it's about the right of people to be allowed to return home
The U.N.s duty is to see that human rights and international laws are adhered to - they have failed miserably as they did in Syria
Israel is riding roughshod over human rights, International laws and basic human decency - as do all terrorist states
Incidentally - If I cant feed the troll, nobody should - remember - "one day at a time"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:48 AM

So somehow Israel is a magic special land that can have complete ownership of a border and plonk it where ever it dictates

???????????????????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:48 AM

No they'd rip it down and establish a neutral no man's land of fun fairs, petting zoos and bouncy castles...

That would work fine, as long as no-one was allowed to cross through it or fire over it.

Middle East finally sorted. Well done PFR.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:50 AM

Jim - I'm trying my best..
but sometimes it's a strain to resist taking the piss out of sheer wanton stupidity and prejudice...

I'd say at the moment I'm maintaining a balance of about 75% ignoring...
but could do better.....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:53 AM

So somehow Israel is a magic special land that can have complete ownership of a border and plonk it where ever it dictates.. eh...

Israel came into existence in 1948, within borders agreed by the UN.
Those are the borders PFR. The borders between Israel and Egypt, Gaza, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.
Like any country it is fully entitled to defend its borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:54 AM

Just think of all the intractable wars of attrition that could be resolved by strategic implementation of ball pits and bouncy castles...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:58 AM

Just think of all the intractable wars of attrition that could be resolved by strategic implementation of ball pits and bouncy castles...

Yes, but if on Israel's border they would have to be enforced by your 'United World Police Peace Keeping Force' to stop them becoming a battlefield when Israel's enemies tried to storm through them or fire over them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:59 AM

I'm going to have to ask my mrs about how effective she thinks the Welsh border is
in keeping the English invaders out of her homeland..
But as I'm English.. it's my border.. it's England's border
to keep the Welsh out...

Borders... bordering on insanity...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:05 AM

World Police

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:16 AM

Interesting that Mexican immigrants are now demonstrating at the US border for the right to be let in
Little doubt that our tam troll humanitarian will leap to the defence of the state when Trump's trrops start shooting them down (as he has defended every other act of mass murder)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:27 AM

Makes one wonder whether those who profess to care about the "Palestinian" people are really only professing their hate toward Israel.

Michael Freeman
@M_S_Freeman

After 7 days of aerial bombardment this is the situation in the Palestinian Yarmouk camp in Syria. Where are the @PSCupdates to protest, organize a rally or even make a statement? Nowhere. Because they have never cared about Palestinians just about hating Israel https://twitter.com/khaledabutoame

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:40 AM

But as I'm English.. it's my border.. it's England's border
to keep the Welsh out...

It is the England/Wales border.
The one being discussed here is the Israel/Gaza border.
Both sides are entitled to restrict entry. If your new force takes responsibility for preventing unwelcome crossings, no more war.
Happy days.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:45 AM

"Makes one wonder whether those who profess to care about the "Palestinian" people are really only professing their hate toward Israel. "
Obviously you have not dipped into any of the Syria/Russia threads
Who on earth has ignored what Syria is doing to civilians - certainly no-one here?
Interesting that you should compare the two atrocities though - we are in agreement for once - one is as ba
d as the other (though Israel has been at it MUCH LONGER)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 09:13 AM

did i hear a little whisper the..."The one being discussed here is the Israel/Gaza border"

..what was that.. a little louder so we all can hear.."The one being discussed here is the Israel/Gaza border"...

yes that's right.."the Israel/Gaza border"..

So it's not just Israel's after all... it's shared with neighbours...

See the difference a little clarification makes...

Why, we might have thought a very biased chap only saw it as fortress Israel's heavily armed isolationist barricade...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 09:40 AM

Punky, you are playing silly, little, semantic games as the word "border" implicitly indicates two political or geographical areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 09:55 AM

bob - facetious games if you don't mind... I have loftier standards than mere 'silly'...

I'll leave silly to the other bloke...


""border" implicitly indicates two political or geographical areas."

yes.. as any sensible person should recognise...

But a sensible person can also see intended bias and loaded meaning behind calling it just 'Israel's Border'...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Gutcher
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 10:17 AM

For the period 1947--2006 Professor Avi Shlaims book "The Iron Wall"
should be read by all commenting on this thread.

Professor Shlaim is a Jew.

To be read in the extended 2nd edition.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 11:08 AM

Thanks Gutcher
I saw the book in Dublin a few months ago and didn't buy it - I will next time we're there
I'd never heard of him before so I've just looked him up
An attack on him in a blog from the Jerusalem post headed
"Avi Shlaim’s Anti-Israel Slime "
quotes him as saying:
"Benjamin Netanyahu is “a bellicose, right-wing Israeli nationalist, a rejectionist… and a reactionary.” His government is “the most aggressively right-wing, diplomatically intransigent, and overtly racist government in Israel’s history.” It is a government of “militant nationalists.” It “is in danger of drifting towards fascism.” He is “a jimcrack politician.” He is “the war-monger in chief.”
In the Independent op-ed, he said “He (Netanyahu) is like a man who pretends to negotiate the division of a pizza while continuing to gobble it.”

and Ehud Barak, Israel’s defense minister, according to Shlaim,

“regards diplomacy as the extension of war by other means.” Moreover, he is a “bitkhonist, a security-ist who wants 100 percent security for Israel which means zero security for the Palestinians.”

He certainly has a way with words - something to look forward to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 11:32 AM

PFR, the strife under discussion is happening at Gaza's Israel border, not its Egypt border which Egypt keeps permanently closed.

(It is enjoying a 3 day opening now, but only for medical patients, students and people with a permit to enter Egypt.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 11:45 AM

Don't get sucked into Keith's shit PFR
The Palestinians are protesting in order to return to their homes - not into another State
Another smokescreen
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:01 PM

...oh.. so now it's "Gaza's Israel border"... well that's getting a bit more positive and inclusive...

That's what we need - open minds and scope for optimism progressing towards less confrontational co-existence...

carrots and sticks for both sides of the divide...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:01 PM

The Palestinians are protesting in order to return to their homes

Lololol...........they are in their homes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:18 PM

Gutcher, here's a book for you to read: Uprooted: How 3000 Years of Jewish Civilization in the Arab World Vanished Overnight by Lyn Julius.

Lyn Julius is the daughter of Iraqi-Jewish refugees.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:37 PM

"Lyn Julius is the daughter of Iraqi-Jewish refugees. "
Lyn Julius is a right winger who accuses the left of claiming that the state of Israel has no right not exist - considering that the left was not only brought into being by Jewish refugees but is made up of a large number of activist Jews, her grap of both history and politics is, not to overstate, unreliable
Her target is not only non Jews, but she makes a point of Jewish critics of Israel in Britain
Those who try strenuously to separate antisemitism and anti-Zionism include the leaders of the British-Jewish community, who banned Israeli flags from a recent demonstration against antisemitism. According to Thomas, it is a distinction without a difference. Decades of media bias have wrought their distortions: Israel is guilty of all kinds of crimes, his peers believe – and Jews outside Israel are guilty sympathisers.
She is fighting for the same rights for Jewish exiles to return that she would deprive the Palestinians of doing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:40 PM

Missed a bit
"Lololol...........they are in their homes. "
Lololo
One in three refugees world wide is Palestinian. There are about 6.5 million Palestinian refugees worldwide. More than 3.8 million Palestinian refugees and their descendents displaced in 1948 are registered for humanitarian assistance with the United Nations.
You will respond to none of this, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:46 PM

imho the point of recommending books ought to be to open minds to new and different ideas and perspectives,
not to confirm and further entrench pre-existing bias and prejudice...


..but then, i'm one of those awkward free thinking objective fair minded humanists..
who am i to criticise old murderous eye for an eye fanatics and zealots...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 01:04 PM

PFR, you were the only person unclear what border was being discussed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 01:28 PM

don't be so silly - you know I was exceptionally clear...
otherwise why would i have made the point of taking you to task on it...
Remember, I am too sharp for you and your devious weasel mismangling trickery...


Jim - oops sorry..

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 01:35 PM

The dispute is actually over the border fence.
That is Israel's border fence.
Israel built it and it is well inside Israel so anyone approaching it has already crossed illegally.

So that is Israel's border fence. Just theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:39 PM

so now we've been talking all day about a fence within a border... make yer mind up...!!!???

Crikes... is this a foretaste of a dispute I'm likely to have with next door over their planned extension,
which seems to have gone a bit quiet since I submitted my objection to the council...!!!???

I'd better start stocking up with jets, tanks, and nukes... just in case...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:44 PM

"Jim - oops sorry.. "
Hapens to the best of us until you take the pledge
Beware his Black Holes - they leave a nasty taste in the mouth
The best way to decide whether to give these people the dignity of a reply is to count the number of times he has ignored your points - but you will need a calculator
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Gutcher
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:51 PM

Bobad---the book I mentioned is a reliable history of events in Israel and surrounding areas during the past 70 years and should be of immediate relevance to the current situation.

I shall look out for the book you mentioned

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 05:13 AM

-the book I mentioned is a reliable history of events in Israel and surrounding areas during the past 70 years

It is highly contentious and disputed by many other historians.
" Karsh criticised Shlaim in the Times Literary Supplement for ignoring Arab aggressive intent and accused him of leaving out the Arab-Palestinian side to the conflict. Shlaim does downplay Arab aggression as part of his overall argument,"

A lengthy review here,http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/153

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 05:33 AM

NYT review,
" But just as early Israeli historians showed far too much tolerance for Zionist machinations, Shlaim is guilty of the inverse -- taking Nasser at his word and referring to 'Arab principle' without skepticism ('The Arab leaders refused to sign the agreement because, as a matter of principle, they were opposed to formal recognition of Israel')."
https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/99/11/14/reviews/991114.14bronjt.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 05:40 AM

Isn't twaling around for the opinions of others that suit your own prejudices far easier than reading the book yourself

Something we can all do if we have the inclination
New Historians leader Benny Morris called Karsh's Fabricating Israeli History "a mélange of distortions, half-truths, and plain lies that vividly demonstrates his profound ignorance of both the source material... and the history of the Zionist-Arab conflict," titling his article "Undeserving of a Reply".[21] Morris adds that Karsh belabors minor points while ignoring the main pieces of evidence.[22]

Political scientist Ian Lustick commented that Karsh's writing in Fabricating Israeli History was malevolent, and his analysis erratic and sloppy.[23][24]

Yezid Sayigh, professor of Middle East studies, wrote that Karsh "is simply not what he makes himself out to be, a trained historian (nor political/social scientist)."[11] Karsh accused Sayigh of a "misleading misrepresentation of my scholarly background" and retorted that Sayigh's remarks were "not a scholarly debate on facts and theses but a character assassination couched in high pseudo-academic rhetoric".[
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 06:07 AM

You skipped over these two comments on the same Wiki page,

Howard Sachar sees Karsh as the "preeminent scholar-spokesman of the Revisionist (politically-rightist) Movement in Zionism."[19]

Author David Rodman opined, "Karsh stitches together a seemingly irrefutable case for the validity of the traditionalist narrative, possibly bringing to an end once and for all the New Historian phenomenon as a sustainable historiographical project."[20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efraim_Karsh

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 06:10 AM

For Christs sake read the book Keith rather than trawling around for adverse comments - or at least let us make up our own minds
Your last link was to a journalist
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 01 May 18 - 08:17 AM

Meh, another fringe, Israel hater writing revisionist history. The kind of fringe Jew embraced by Israel haters primarily because he is an Israel hating Jew extremist, as if he somehow represents the opinions of the majority. Just like Corbyn in his attempt to feign Jew cred attended Seder with a fringe anti-Israel group of extremists - likes attracting likes.