Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties

Subject: Gibb's New Book on Chanteys
From: Lighter
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:48 AM

Professor Gibb Schreffler of Pomona College - better known to Mudcat as "Gibb Sahib" - has just published a fascinating and important little book on chanteys called "Boxing the Compass" (CAMSCO Music, 2018).

Gibb has immersed himself in the theory and practice of chanteying probably more thoroughly than anyone else alive. (For starters, he recorded every one of Stan Hugill's chanteys for presentation on YouTube - just to get the feel and the feedback.)

Not a song collection, the hundred pages of "Boxing the Compass" instead examine how, between about 1860 and 1980, a succession of journalists, collectors, editors, folklorists, revival singers - and a handful of actual chanteymen - have shaped our understanding of chanteys, where they come from, and how - supposedly - they "should" be performed.

Naturally Stan Hugill gets a beautifully balanced chapter of his own. Important lesser known figures like John Robinson, Dick Maitland, and Frank Bullen, all of whom learned their chanteys in the generations before Hugill, also get some overdue attention.

"Boxing the Compass" will be indispensible to anyone with a serious interest in chanteying, not least because it includes the most extensive bibliography ever compiled on the subject.

It's a fascinating read, too. No academic jargon. I'm headed back for a second pass right now.

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 18 - 10:11 AM

That sounds good....

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: RTim
Date: 01 May 18 - 10:23 AM

Is CAMSCO Music, 2018 the only way to obtain - or will it be available at say - Mystic ??

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 18 - 10:51 AM

Thanks, Jonathan, for that excellent review of Gibb's new book. I found it to be some of the most important and interesting 100 pages I've ever read. And he has presented his material so folks can follow up on his sources and see for themselves, many of which appeared right here on Mudcat in his "Advent" thread on chanties. The price on this is very reasonable and I've seen it on Amazon, as well as available from Barnes & Noble. I would love to see some extensive and serious discussion of Gibb's book on Mudcat. I think this little book sets the framework for responsible work on the history of chanties for the foreseeable future. John Minear

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 01 May 18 - 10:55 AM

That "Guest" was me, John Minear. My cookie got away from me apparently. But, with or without cookies, get ahold of this book by Gibb Schreffler and read it. It's hard to put down once you get started and it is easy reading.

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 01 May 18 - 11:20 AM

Tim, Amazon's got it.

Best $9.95 you'll spend this year!


https://www.amazon.com/Boxing-Compass-Discourse-Chanties-Occasional/dp/1935243810/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1525187900&sr=1

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 01 May 18 - 11:21 AM

Hi, John.

I agree completely.

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 May 18 - 12:48 PM

Have review copies been sent out? I'd love to review it. A long-awaited tome. I'm just working on some chantey lists charting the earliest appearance in print of each chantey upto about 1900. Lots of early collections are now available freely online. Pond, Adams, Chambers's Journal.

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 01 May 18 - 01:42 PM

Mr. Lighter, you are a very humble person. Your book is the first in this current series of six volumns, monographs.


https://loomishousepress.com


Sincerely,
Gargoyle



Steve, at ten bucks....are you that????

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: meself
Date: 01 May 18 - 01:50 PM

Based on Gibb's participation here, I look forward to reading this one!

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 May 18 - 02:05 PM

Jon,
I presume there's a chapter on the earliest references.

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 01 May 18 - 02:29 PM

> some chantey lists charting the earliest appearance in print of each chantey upto about 1900.

Steve, I've been doing the same thing! Material (mostly snatches) from U.S. newspapers as far back as 1860s.

Email me your lists and I'll see if I can add anything.

Gibb, if you're out there, same message to you.

Gargoyle, not humble - tactful.

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 01 May 18 - 03:17 PM

Looks like I need to get this too.

And while I'm here, Hi to John Minear.

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 May 18 - 03:17 PM

Apart from my own books which I haven't looked at yet I've been using the listing thread and finding the books themselves online in most cases. I haven't got any copies of Davis and Tozer, but at the moment I'm only interested in the first edition of 1887. The only 2 on there I haven't yet identified by their title are Mobile Bay and Eight Bells. Can you tell me what they are better-known as please?

Did you manage to find which the 10 were added to the 3rd edition?

I have one or two seamen's yarns type books like Dana.

Most of the ones I haven't actually got copies of, the chanteys are easily identified by the title.

I now have copies of Chambers 1869, Pond, (inc. Adams). I haven't got a copy of Briggs 'Around cape Horn' but the only 2 on there I'm not sure about are 'Orenso' and 'Ship 'Neptune'. I haven't got Fowke's book on the Smith and Hatt Mss but am looking out for a copy. Do the mss have dates?

I'm just about to go searching online for the JAFL 1946 Taft article. Must be online I think.

Haven't got Bullen/Arnold which looks useful from the list of titles even though it's after 1900.

I might hold fire with my list until I've seen what Gibb has to say.

Regarding Pond/Adams I've been working out the probable dates when these chanteys were sung. In the case of Adams on the Dublin it must be about 1858. On the Rocket (as captain) would have been 1865. This from references in the text. He doesn't actually give any dates.

I still have a lot of work to do on it so you are probably much further on than me.

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: radriano
Date: 01 May 18 - 04:40 PM

There's already a book in print called Boxing the Compass!

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 May 18 - 05:37 PM

Correction
I have got Fowke's book and I have also now downloaded the 1906 and 1946 JAFL articles.

My chantey books are not kept together so I'll have to either go through my chantey index cards or scout along the shelves for likely sources.

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: meself
Date: 01 May 18 - 06:08 PM

So, radriano - now there's another.

Reminds me of when one of our members produced a CD, and someone felt it appropriate to post a list of every other recording that had had the same title. One asks oneself: why?

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 01 May 18 - 06:54 PM

Steve, "Mobile Bay" (pp. 40-41) is otherwise known as "John, come tell us as we haul away."

First stanza (of eight):

Were you never down in Mobile Bay?
    John, come tell us as we haul away.
A-screwing cotton all the day?
    John, come tell us as we haul away.

    Aye, aye, haul, aye,
    John, come tell us as we hoist away.

After the expected reply in stz. 2 ("Oh! yes, I've been in Mobile Bay"), the words become romantic and sappy.

"Eight Bells" (pp. 46-48) is the forebitter often sung by Stan Hugill, commencing, "My husband's a saucy foretopman,/ A chum of the cook's don't you know?" Four stanzas.

**********

It now seems that the essentially definitive Third ed., dated in our earlier thread to "1906," actually appeared so early as 1891.

The words-only so-called "Fourth Edition" is advertised, e.g., in The Guardian (Feb. 2, 1897), p.4.

On Oct. 22, 1892, p. 4, the Guardian identifies "Lieut. F. J. Davis" as "the author of 'Fifty Sailors' Songs or Chanties.'" This can only be a reference to the Third ed.

Music historian James J. Fuld, in his meticulous "Book of World Famous Music" (p.206) draws on information from Boosey & Co, the publishers, to date the Third ed. to 1891.

Either '91 or '92 comports well with the Third Ed. "Preface," which states that it is published "within a short time after the appearance of the second." The 2nd Ed., now apparently unobtainable, is dated by Fuld to Feb., 1890. It contained sixteen more songs than the 1st Ed. of 1887.

Since the gap between Ed. 2 and Ed. 3 is only one or two years (rather than fifteen), the question of which songs were added in Ed. 3 begins to seem less than consequential. A total of twenty-six were added between 1887 and 1891 (or '92).

Subject: RE: Gibb's New Book on Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 01 May 18 - 07:12 PM

Correction! "Mobile Bay" is on "pp. 74-75" (Song No. 40), and the verb is "haul away" in both cases.

(Trying to juggle photocopies, laptop, and cat. Don't ask.)

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 01 May 18 - 08:58 PM

The following notice appeared in The Devon and Exeter Gazette (Sept. 30, 1891), p. 1:

"The Queen has been pleased to accept a copy of the new edition of 'Fifty Sailors' Songs or Chanties," by Messrs. Ferris Tozer and F. J. Davis, R.N."

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 02 May 18 - 06:29 AM

It's good to see some familiar names and I am really glad to hear that there is some serious ongoing work being done on this material, especially by Lighter and Gardham. I hope you will continue to share the results here as they are in progress. And Hi to you, Brian. You definitely need to have this little book!

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Susan of DT
Date: 02 May 18 - 08:05 AM

CAMSCO has not been very active lately, but we are still here in reduced form. Dick will carry some copies of Gibb's book to Mystic, which will not be in the bookstore and not officially sold there. He will also have a few copies of my Child Ballad book.

We no longer accept credit cards - the fees were higher than we were making. The web site has not been functional for years.

PM me if you are interested in buying the book at Mystic so Dick can have enough copies with him. We can mail order if you send a check. With postage, it would be $12.50 in the US. I'll have to find out about the UK price. There are a couple of ancient addresses for us on this site; it is the one in Lansdale PA. PM me for details.

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 02 May 18 - 08:45 AM

This seems to be the earliest mention of "One More Day," for example.

Sung by a parrot. (Well, OK, in a sea story.):

        Rock and roll me over, one more day,
        One more day, my darling, one more day;
        Oh, rock and roll me over,
        One more day.

From "All the Year Round" (Oct. 1, 1864), p. 176.

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: GUEST,Greenie
Date: 02 May 18 - 09:30 AM

I've just ordered my copy from the Big River Company for £9.55 inc post.

Strange how the UK site is already offering two used copies at a higher price than new.

Economic vagaries of online book selling!

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 02 May 18 - 01:15 PM

Steve, D & T aver in the Third Ed. preface that "some airs" were taken by permission from Smith's "Music of the Waters" (1888).

As best I can tell, these are

1. Lowlands.

2. The Chanteyman's Song.

3. The Golden Vanitee.

4. Married to a Mermaid.

5. Eliza Lee.

6. The Stormy Winds Do Blow.

Note "airs," not words. Other songs that appear in both books show different "airs" and often differing words. Smith seems *not* to have borrowed anything from
D & T (1887).

A comparison of Smith's lyrics with D & T's shows that while they are sometimes more sentimental than we would expect from later generations, they're generally not nearly as romantically elaborated the versions of D & T.

This seems to reinforce my suggestion (on another thread) that Davis (credited with the lyrics) wrote or "poeticized" most of them himself
And why not? The target audience for the collection, with Tozer's elaborate piano accompaniments, was clearly that of Victorian concert and parlor singers - not modern folklore scholars. The tunes, I'm sure both men believed, were obviously worth preserving - unlike the trivial words that chanteymen were really singing. These demanded to be extended, altered, or sentimentally "improved" in most cases.

When the editors write (1887) "this is the first time" the chanteys have had "recognised words set to them," they must mean not "trad" words (except incidentally) but words they expect to become "standard."

That's the only sense I can make of "recognised" in light of everything else. The only alternative meaning would be "traditional" - and most of D & T's lyrics seem not to be that.

Steve and Gibb will probably have more to say about these things.

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 02 May 18 - 01:21 PM

I just ordered a copy via Amazon...to add to the maritime music book collection Tom (Mudcat's Curmudgeon)started compiling. (I really should catalogue the collection one of these days.)

Tom avidly followed Gibb Sahib's posts here.

Linn

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 May 18 - 05:33 PM

I am being heavily flattered here. Gibb and Jon's Knowledge on these matters far exceed mine but by all means let's keep a commentary going. I'm keen to learn. I'm showing a pronounced interest in odd little references like the 'All the Year Round' quotation that Jon posted. It would be good to have a record of the earliest reference to each chantey. I have bits and pieces of such info all over the place and my interest in ballad histories takes priority, but I ought to pull together these references and I'm making a start.

Jon
I do have copies of 'Mobile Bay' in Colcord etc., but it's not one I remember hearing sung.

Thanks for the latest info on Tozer and Davis. Very useful. I haven't seen a full copy of any edition but I fully accept your opinion on the veracity of what it contains. Bowdlerisation was the norm at the time.

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 03 May 18 - 01:33 AM

In the middle of finals/graduation/panic season in university; just popping in for a sec.

Thanks for this thread, Lighter. Thanks everyone.

Roy Palmer's _Boxing the Compass: Sea Songs and Shanties_ is a slight (?) revision of the Oxford Book of Sea Songs, i.e. a song book.

My short book is _Boxing the Compass: A Century and a Half of Discourse about Sailors' Chanties_. The title is not just a snappy allusion to nautical content (though is that, too). It refers to the content of the work which, as tedious as it may sound (and it is to an extent, but I tried to pep it up), is a _literature review_. It aims to take one through "all" the "important" writings about sailors' chanties. NOT all the sources of evidence that might help one study one or another aspect of chanties as a field of study; rather, the field of study is the succession of works by people more or less explicitly / deliberately writing on it, which I interpret as constituting an accumulated discourse... and by extension, the history of how we come to know what we [think we] know, broadly speaking. "Boxing the compass" refers to the exercise, and the purported rigor: As one names every minute point on the compass in its entirety and in order, my composition considers the entire "compass" or writing and works through it in chronological/methodical order. I imply (though rather tongue in cheek, to be honest) that as a "good" sailor must be able to box the compass, a good scholar of the chanty subject should know all these points on the compass—the sources and their positions in the succession. (The broader philosophy being that one must try to understand how one has come to know what one knows about a subject before one offers to contribute to an expansion of that knowledge.)

Example of pieces of advice that my analysis offers would be: 1) Whall's work is solid in terms of the authenticity of texts/tune, but beware of the stuff he says about the genre and song items. 2) Colcord's work is convenient for casual singers (and was a great source for folk revival performers), but it's mostly useless for historians. 3) Bullen's work contains some of the most faithful representation of the knowledge of an experienced chantyman during the zenith of the practice, yet the timing of it, coming when other perspectives were predominant, may have led it to be neglected. etc etc

TL;DR: It's not a collection and it's not free exploration of topics that took the fancy, but rather something with a pretty focused and deliberate purpose.

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 03 May 18 - 04:20 AM

Copy ordered. Looking forward to the read ...

Regards

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:38 PM

Hi Gibb
Looking forward to reading it. Does it have much/anything on origins or the golden period, or are we waiting for the next volume?

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 03 May 18 - 09:22 PM

Susan, I just PM'd you.

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 03 May 18 - 11:30 PM

Hi Steve!

Thank you VERY much for your interest.

As I attempted to explain above, the SHORT (100 pp) book is very focused on mapping the development of how people have talked/discoursed about the subject of chanties, in notable works. It does not present my story of origins or whatever, rather it takes stock of others' ideas. Before someone makes another statement about what they believe to be the "origins," etc., I encourage them to undertake this study of how their sources of information were created and how the conceptual apparatus with which they interpret those sources came to be as it is. Yes, I have a completely different kind of book planned for the future, with stuff that I've been presenting at conferences etc for years now. But I find when I make direct claims in those contexts, my audience is not poised well to "hear" what I'm saying; the conversation isn't there yet. At the certain risk of making all this sound too grandiose and pompous: This is a a process. Shifts in thinking... in conventional wisdom... in "common knowledge"... entail a slow process of getting people to come around to an idea. I think steps have to be laid out gradually, or else you introduce an idea which at that moment falls on deaf ears and is forgotten.

Talk more later!
G

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 May 18 - 09:08 AM

You don't need to convince me. I'm already a disciple.

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Susan of DT
Date: 06 May 18 - 01:17 PM

Only one request so far to bring a copy of the book to Mystic. Anyone else?

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 06 May 18 - 02:27 PM

Gibb... look out for the call for papers for the forthcoming folk song conference hosted by EFDSS. It's in November 2018. Might be a different opportunity to present your research. Details on the vwml website soon.
Derek

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 18 - 05:31 PM

Please, yes. Bring copies to Mystic. They will sell like hot cakes.
David

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 08 May 18 - 08:41 PM

Just purchased the entire set...

Thank you Mr. Lighter

At 10 cents a page, bargain beyond belief.

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Anglo
Date: 11 May 18 - 11:34 AM

Well, I'll be at Mystic looking for a copy.

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 11 May 18 - 09:50 PM

Anglo, did you PM Susan of DT? If not, see her post above at 02 May 18 - 08:05 AM. Dick of CAMSCO will be selling them at Mystic but they won't be in the bookstore/gift shop. Let Susan know so Dick will bring one for you.

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 May 18 - 06:56 PM

First complete reading and annotation. Wow! A very important volume with no equivalent hitherto produced as far as I know. Essential reading for anyone interested in not only the history of chanty publishing, but the history of the chanty itself. I have most of the collections mentioned in it but of those I don't have I can now prioritise which ones are worth acquiring. Another important feature is how many of the publications are at least partly derived from earlier ones. It's also helpful to know how different editions differed. The book is also a useful summary of the very long 'Advent' thread here.

I hope Gibb is at least thinking about the next volume.

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: radriano
Date: 21 May 18 - 05:32 PM

Hey, Gibb:

I just read your book. Very interesting and well researched. Greetings from San Francisco!

radriano (Richard Adrianowicz)

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 May 18 - 06:12 PM

Gibb et al,
The Roud Index is being expanded in all sorts of directions, with more information and search tools on all of the songs. One small part of this is my Master Titles addition, which consists of giving a common well-known title to each ballad/folksong. So far all it covers is folksong collected in England in multiple versions, but for various reasons I have hitherto avoided doing the same for chanties. As your book/research demonstrates chanties need to be classified quite differently to ballad-type folksongs. Instead of using text, in many cases it makes more sense to use tune and chorus to identify individual chanties.

I notice you have already started using a brief master title in your writing which will be helpful. Most chanties have obvious master titles 'Whiskey, Johnny' and are clearly identified but where there are grey areas I will need some help, such as with the various 'Stormalong' types.

I wonder if on the long 'Advent' thread I could put proposed Master Titles up for discussion.

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Greenie
Date: 21 May 18 - 11:14 PM

My copy arrived last week and I've just finished my second reading.

As a book collector, I dream of books like this. Indispensible, both as bibliography and historiography.

Thank you Gibb!

Greenie

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: GUEST,Brian Grayson
Date: 22 May 18 - 01:53 AM

"The Queen has been pleased to accept a copy of the new edition of 'Fifty Sailors' Songs or Chanties," by Messrs. Ferris Tozer and F. J. Davis, R.N."

Delightful fantasy of Queen Vicky belting out a shanty with the family joining in...

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 May 18 - 09:52 AM

They no doubt used them to raise the royals.

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 22 May 18 - 10:35 AM

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It hurts so good.

Subject: RE: Gibb Sahib's New Book on Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 May 18 - 07:39 PM

Thank you, guys, for the comments (and not just because they are positive).

Steve, I will surely write another book, but that will will draw on a completely different set and type of sources -- primary sources, which just contain the odd comment here and there. Too many and too scattered to name. I have most of the material, with one gap being that I should visit some archives in New Orleans. Probably some follow up work on Library of Congress, too. Additionally, I have not resisted the Carpenter Collection materials since they have been officially posted; my earlier notes are based on what was available previously. I will probably try to write some individual articles first so they can go through peer review. Among these are a chapter/article about cotton stowing and another about other stevedore stuff. And another about the lever windlass. (I have an argument about how the shift to the lever style windlass, and then its eventual obsolescence, shaped the development of the genre.)

The other thing that interests me to expand is info on the Firefighter's songs, though it may be more practical to publish the rest first, with an apology for the lack of depth in that area, since I believe anything further on that topic is "hidden" in archives. Searching for that stuff tends to take a lot of work for little reward. I looked at archives of firefighter stuff in Mobile, which had a prominent Black firefighter organization, but it was difficult to know where to look in the material and would take lots of reading manuscripts searching for that hypothetical needle in a haystack.