BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?

Subject: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 18 - 05:14 PM

For general elections I normally stay up for at least a few hours to watch results coming in. I don't usually bother for local elections but maybe his time I will watch the first few ...

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 18 - 05:29 PM

The Guardian indicates first results should come around 1am, and about 2am before the interesting ones which might indicate any dramatic trends.

The fun with these things is watching politicians trying to present disasters as somehow really being triumphs. And seeing the blood drain from self-satisfied faces.

But with local elections it's never the same, because their political lives aren't a stake. It's like shadow boxing as against a real fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 18 - 09:26 PM

Well it doesn't look like a disaster but it isn't a stunning victory either. I've been half-watching it and I'm going to bed now. Who was that dreadful Tory woman who was determined to handbag John McDonnell at every turn?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 18 - 09:37 PM

You note how they always seem to dress in red these days? You'd think they were in America where the party colours are reversed.

Anyway Harlow had a fair result - UKIP lost all its four seats, and three went to Labour and one to the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 18 - 01:57 AM

I didn't stay up very long in the end - 12:30 or so. That's one of the problems of still having a 6:30 start for work this morning.

Looks like very little has actually changed. The collapse of UKIP had made it very difficult to see how the main parties themselves would have faired without that.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 02:52 AM

The collapse of UKIP is the best news we have had for a long time. The start of people coming to their senses maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 May 18 - 03:37 AM

More a case of the fact that UKIP isn't required now that Brexit is going ahead.
If the government renege on Brexit I can imagine UKIP coming back even stronger than before, but in a general election rather than the locals. "If you cut me down . . ." (Quote of the day!)

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 May 18 - 03:43 AM

UKIP collapsing doesn't actually change anything when both Corbyn and May are willing to bash the fuck out of any of their party members who oppose UKIP policies. The English didn't have an alternative to vote for.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 03:46 AM

UKIP was never required. They pandered to the worst in people by demonising immigrants. They played the same card that the Nazis played in the 1930s and I was saddened to see people falling for it. Particularly people on here who I expected to have more sense. Good riddance to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:21 AM

Many people on here do have more sense than to accept the comments of UKIP at face value.
That does not mean that they do not also have strong feelings, well thought out, about our need to leave the EU.
It is only through the rise of UKIP that we got a vote on the matter.
Unfortunately those who lost that vote continue to base their arguments on the fact that it was only racists, or the easily led, that voted to leave the EU. That view is an insult to the larger part of the electorate which voted at the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:31 AM

Yes, the truth often hurts.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:38 AM

"UKIP was never required. They pandered to the worst in people by demonising immigrants."


complete and utter garbage! These remoaners just cannot accept the fact they lost. Identical to democrats and the mighty victory of Trump!
They even make a pathetic attempt to revert to spreading false news to try to strengthen their position.

Happy days will be here again when brexit occurs.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:43 AM

As I say, the collapse of UKIP makes it hard to work out what is going on. At the moment this is part of the position for Hampshire:

LAB +37
LD +40
UKIP -92
CONS -2

It would be very odd if a whole bunch of xenophobic UKIPpers had decided to switch to pro-remain LD. So such a superficial analysis is not going to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:51 AM

Nothing to do with brexit, Iains. In my opinion UKIP were a blight on this country's political stage with no policy apart from to get rid of anyone who is not white and British from the UK. Are you prepared to defend UKIP's policies in any other way than just shouting 'complete and utter garbage' at anyone who criticises them?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:53 AM

"Nuneaton MP and Conservative vice-chair Marcus Jones says: "The Conservatives should have lost hundreds of seats."

"Instead Conservatives are taking councils like Basildon and Barnet where Labour has been fatally damaged by anti-Semitism row."

Labour lost control of Nuneaton and Bedworth in Warwickshire, after the Conservatives took eight of their seats."

Corbyn. You have a problem!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 18 - 05:22 AM

Dave Ukip ceased to be any kind of potent political entity as soon as the referendum result was declared. They served a useful purpose by ensuring the Tories did not renege on a referendum commitment, unlike the opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 05:26 AM

So, why is it 'complete and utter garbage' to say that they pandered to the worst in people by demonising immigrants then?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 May 18 - 05:54 AM

THere was a large spread of dissatisfaction with the EU, across the whole p[olitical spectrum - from Dennis Skinner and Jeremy Corbyn to Jacos Rees Mogg.

UKIP was a flag of convenience for many shades of political opinion. There are fascist nutters in every party. UKIP seemed to have more than its fair share, but I'm sure there were honourable and decent people in there too.

In a way the Nothern Ireland question, which is being seized upon by Remainers as an insoluble problem is the strongest reason why we must get out of the EU.. Everyone agrees no one wants a border. Unionists and Republicans. The discordant voice when you get down to it is Brussels, saying like Pauli in Goodfellas - we don't care if it starts a civil war, fuck you! we want our money!

its interference in our internal matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 05:58 AM

There are fascist nutters in every party.

That may well be true, Al, but only UKIP had one as its leader and their single policy of blaming everything on immigration led to them having 'more than its fair share'.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 May 18 - 06:33 AM

and their single policy of blaming everything on immigration led to them having 'more than its fair share'.
I think their policy was blaming things on the EU. That includes some immigration matters, and some matters of inflexibility over trade.
Even if immigration was the core matter, the complaints were not against 'immigration', but against 'uncontrolled immigration'. That is a distinction which many remainers refuse to acknowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 06:44 AM

Many saw their stance as anti-immigration full stop and perception is everything in politics. They used the old tried and trusted blame the foreigner tactic and sadly it worked.

As I suggested on another thread, that is my opinion and I am as entitled to it as you are to yours. I believe you are wrong. You believe I am. Ne'er the twain shall meet so I shall let it lie there.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 18 - 06:44 AM

"Fascist nutter" is just name calling.
What did he actually do to merit that?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 18 - 07:01 AM

I think above we have a typical example of the behaviour that is being discussed elsewhere. A highly offensive label being placed on a party purely on the basis of a minority opinion. This sort of posting just invites retaliation. It is so obviously inflammatory that it justifies the accusation of trolling!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 18 - 07:07 AM

I couldn't see much to choose between UKIP and the Tories. Both used the same language about immigrants, but the Tories had the opportunity to enact racist policies, and seized it.

In both cases, as in all parties, there are a fair number of decent enough people who vote for them, or even join them.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 07:38 AM

No one, as far as I cam see, has called the entire party anything even remotely offensive. The point was made by Big Al and just now by Kevin that there are decent people within its ranks. Albeit, in my opinion, sadly misled.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 May 18 - 08:27 AM

Now Croydon council has a larger majority, little to stop them turning over recreation grounds to blocks of flats for undesirables an gypsy sites.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 18 - 08:30 AM

"What did he actually do to merit that? "
If we can't call fascist nutters "fascist nutter" what can we call fascist nutters?
Protecting ultra-right politics again I see Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 18 - 08:33 AM

Re. racism, it seems that Labour's anti-Semitism was the cause of its drubbing in Barnet.

"Adam Langleben, one of the Labour councillors who lost their seat in Barnet, said allegations of anti-Semitism was the key reason for the party's losses in London.
He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I spent countless hours knocking on countless doors speaking to Jewish voters who are Labour voters or were Labour voters - people who genuinely believe in the same values as the Labour Party, who agreed with our local manifesto for Barnet.
"But they could not vote for a Labour Party that they see as hostile or dangerous to the Jewish community.
"And the Labour Party is seen by far too many people in the Jewish community as being racist right now." "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-44001786

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 18 - 08:36 AM

Jim, you can call him anything you like, but is it justified?
Again, what has he actually done to merit that description?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 May 18 - 08:39 AM

well at least Farage had the bollocks to say he disagreed with the EU. Corbyn disagreed with it - at least he always said he did until becoming a boss.

Its the same with this anti semitism stuff. The point is that within living memory he has cosied up to people who declared their opposition to the existence of Israel.

You can say - well at least he was open in his dealings - unlike Thatcher who maintained she wasn't having chats with the IRA, but was.

But people need to know what his deepest convictions are. And that's the reason his party, (my party incidently also) took a mauling in these elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 18 - 08:53 AM

Not as easy as that Al
Once the vote is taken, any responsible leader makes the best of it
Farage got Britain into this mess on a racist ticket - that's what makes him a fascist nutter (you've not had a change of hrat already, have you!!)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 18 - 09:54 AM

Nice to see Farage's fascist nuttiness was reflected in the vote for what remains of his party, which appears to have gone the way if its counterparts, the NF and the BNP
Never mind - as with number 11 buses - there'll be another one along in a minute
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 09:56 AM

How to spot a swivel-eyed loon

For a laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 18 - 10:44 AM

The joke is that was written a year before the swivel eyed loons won the EU election.
Until then every party refused to promise a referendum, but as a result of SEL's success they all suddenly did!

How does that make Farage a racist nutter though Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 18 - 10:47 AM

DID SOMEONE ASK A QUESTION?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 18 - 11:00 AM

Yes Jim. That poster was a news photo of large numbers of young men crossing an EU border to illustrate the EU migrant crisis.
That was a key issue in their manifesto.

How was it racist or fascist?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 18 - 11:01 AM

Sorry Keith
Just wanted to remind myself how much of a "not supporter" of Ukip you were
Many thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 18 - 11:01 AM

Before you make accusations, I do not support or defend UKIP, but if you are going to criticise them make it rational, not just name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 May 18 - 11:37 AM

[Corbyn]
Its the same with this anti semitism stuff. The point is that within living memory he has cosied up to people who declared their opposition to the existence of Israel.

I oppose the existence of Israel and I haven't noticed that UKIP catamite cosying up to me.

I also oppose the existence of the UK. So do a great majority of all the people elected ti any level of public office in Scotland. Which doesn't make us anti-English, it just makes us anti- the thieving, lying, selfish, bigoted, vicious cunts the English keep electing and foisting on us as gauleiters.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 18 - 11:45 AM

Scotland could have left.
They were asked and said no thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 18 - 12:32 PM

" but if you are going to criticise them make it rational, not just name calling. "
You want me to be fair to a fascist nutter
Your request has been noted and will be dealt with fully when the occasion arises
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 18 - 01:20 PM

You want me to be fair to a fascist nutter

By no means Jim.
I just want to be told how you know he is one so I can join in the abuse.
What did he do, and why do respectable organisations like the BBC give him airtime?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 01:50 PM

I'm pretty sure the 1930s German equivalent of the BBC gave a certain chap with a funny moustache airtime. I suppose he must have been a good bloke then...

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 18 - 01:54 PM

I think it's a mistake to use "fascist" loosely. Having far right beliefs, and hostility to immigration doesn’t really equate to fascist ideology, it's essentially mainstream Toryism.

And Farage is far too crafty and manipulative a politician for "nutter" to really fit. If he'd been a nutter he'd have been a lot less dangerous than he has been. It very much fitted into his game plan to be seen as a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 18 - 03:06 PM

I'd hate to thing of the effort Keith puts into fascist nutters he does support if this is the amount of work he's prepared to put into fascist nutters he doesn't
The mind boggles
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 May 18 - 06:25 PM

i can't really understand why Scotland didn't leave the UK. i think a lot of socialists would have moved there.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 18 - 06:59 PM

Ironically I suspect a deciding factor for many may have been that they thought sticking with England was a way of escaping the risk an independent Scotland might not be able to join the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 18 - 07:35 PM

I think you might be right Mac, but there is every reason to believe that, should Scotland vote again the result would be very different
Brexit has had a radical effect on Six-County politics and brought a United Ireland within a hair's breadth
"It's an ill wind...." as they say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 18 - 08:55 PM

That could well be true, Jim. I hope you are, in both cases.

I suppose that makes me a Little Englander. Actually that'd be getting back to the original use of that term, round the end of the 19th century, when Little Englanders was the term used by and about people opposed to the extension of the British Empire, especially in the context of the Boer War. I'd like to see it reclaimed for people who favour the winding up of the United Kingdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 May 18 - 08:42 AM

I was a counting agent for the first time on Thursday night, so I was on my feet for most of the time 3:30 Thursday AM to about 4:30 Friday AM so that was a long night, and still not had a drink to celebrate an increase of seats from 53 to 57 out of 69 seats, including 3 from Tory strongholds for the first time. So that was a long day and night for me!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 18 - 08:49 AM

"So that was a long day and night for me!"
But a worthwhile one from the sound of it
Should have sent out 'wish you were here' cards and we might have joined you in a celebratory pint
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 May 18 - 09:16 AM

Upshot - Since my post I have been invited as a guest to the Mayor Making ceremony and dinner. Need to dress up 'posh' though (suit and tie.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 May 18 - 10:35 AM

I wouldn't call Farage a nutter. He is calculating and divisive. He chooses his language carefully so that he find accord with the worst prejudices in society, while making it difficult to prove that anything he says is directly racist. That makes/made him far more dangerous than out and out open racists like Griffin, Webster, Robinson and their ilk. It may even be debatable whether he believes in any of the bile he spouts. What I do know is that he will be riding the gravy train long after we(as individuals) get bugger-all benefit from being European Citizen. Something I will never renounce.

Oh, and Bongo, shouldn't you be more concerned that people who live in new housing builds may have to live next or close to undesirables like you?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 May 18 - 09:57 AM

I wouldn't call Farage a nutter. He is calculating and divisive. He chooses his language carefully so that he find accord with the worst prejudices in society, while making it difficult to prove that anything he says is directly racist.
So you accept that his comments cannot be shown to be racist, but then go on to comment on the 'bile' he spouts?

What I do know is that he will be riding the gravy train long after we(as individuals) get bugger-all benefit from being European Citizen.
He has been campaigning to get us out of the EU, and so bring to an end his tenure as an EMP. So ending his income (apart from pension already earned) hardly the actions of someone who wishes to continue on the gravy train which is the EU.

. . .being European Citizen, Something I will never renounce.
I don't know what your current nationality is, but you may not get the option/opportunity to retain/renounce European Citizenship, so it would not be a matter of 'renouncing' it.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 18 - 10:04 AM

You really believe he has earned anything as an MEP, Nigel? Have you seen his attendance record?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 18 - 10:06 AM

Depends, Nigel. As someone with an Irish mother I have the opportunity to remain or leave EU citizenship. I know you will say that is not renouncing it, but it is logically equivalent in that the decision to have or not have citizenship is entirely mine.

All the forms and paperwork is on my desk. I just need a suitable person to witness and authenticate signatures..

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 May 18 - 10:10 AM

He attended at times. He was a representative of UK and even if he failed to attend, he was preventing the place being taken by an EU sycophant. As such he was serving a purpose. But when he did attend he was routinely reviled, so I quite understand his choosing his times to attend.
As to what he 'earned', the EU was paying all the EMP irrespective. I don't believe he was just doing it to play the system, but even if he was then that could be blamed on the laxity of the EU's own rules. At least he knew there was a chance of the payments being audited, admittedly the chance was 'slim to none'.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 06 May 18 - 10:36 AM

recent events have made it quite clear that the tory party is institutionally racist and has been for a long time. i thought they had been forced to go more right wing and divisive to ensure the support of the extremists in ukip but they probably didn't need any help to get there. it's weird and very depressing that so many people in our countries can't see these people for what they are. or maybe they do understand and are quite happy to vote for incompetent wreckers and more cruelty to groups they do not approve of or even pretend to help. maybe not 'stupid or easily led' - just unpleasant, narrow minded and vindictive

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 18 - 12:34 PM

"just unpleasant, narrow minded and vindictive" must be a bit like labour party supporters that either cannot manage or do not care to have their party deal with it's inherent racism.. This is the probable reason the party took a beating in the recent polls.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 18 - 01:17 PM

recent events have made it quite clear that the tory party is institutionally racist and has been for a long time.

I do not accept that, but you can not deny that racism in the Labour Party caused Jewish voters to abandon them. It cost them Barnet.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 06 May 18 - 01:49 PM

again.....there is a long tradition of jewish socialism from karl marx onwards. there are, of course, many right wing jews too. the differences are currently between these groups and many other tory types who like to use this as a stick to beat labour with. whatever, it is a political difference and nothing to do with racism. i've been in the left all my adult life and never heard any anti-jewish shit. there is almost blanket condemnation of the israeli government and support for the palestinian people - but these are entirely valid political opinions.
i feel stupid for rising to the bait again to defend the left when this tactic is so transparently used to deflect attention from the crimes and inadequacies of the current government. if you are minded to support them how do you feel about your fellow british citizens being detained, bullied and deported and treated abominally for years - aren't you ashamed?
and labour weren't beat in the recent polls-we made some gains but not as many as we had hoped. to expect them to have done better would be to accept that they should have done so as theresa may etc are so completely useless. and demonstrably racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 18 - 02:15 PM

Pete, the accusations come from within Labour.
I posted this from BBC earlier,
"Adam Langleben, one of the Labour councillors who lost their seat in Barnet, said allegations of anti-Semitism was the key reason for the party's losses in London.
He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I spent countless hours knocking on countless doors speaking to Jewish voters who are Labour voters or were Labour voters - people who genuinely believe in the same values as the Labour Party, who agreed with our local manifesto for Barnet.
"But they could not vote for a Labour Party that they see as hostile or dangerous to the Jewish community.
"And the Labour Party is seen by far too many people in the Jewish community as being racist right now." "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-44001786

how do you feel about your fellow british citizens being detained, bullied and deported and treated abominally for years - aren't you ashamed?

Yes, it was shameful, but can not say that any one party was to blame or that any party intended it.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 18 - 02:33 PM

So far as I can see almost all the identified instances of anti-semitism have been anonymous posts on the internet - where thee is no way of knowing whether they accurately reflect the views of antisemitic Labour supporters, or fakes by people wishing to beef up accusations of antisemitism.

I think it important to resist labelling as antisemitic strong criticism of many aspects of Israeli policies towards Palestinians and their sympathisers. A distinction gets made between criticism of Israel's behaviour and its legitimacy as a state.

However insofar as critics of Israel may support the right of Palestinians to return to the territory of Israel from which their families were forced to flee in 1948, this would mean a direct challenge to Israel as a confessional Jewish State. Whether this is a realistic option or not, I cannot see is as truly constituting an antisemitic viewpoint. It is consistent with the Balfour Declaration's call for Palestine to be a Jewish Homeland shared with the existing population.

Nor is support for BDS, or an acceptance of the Palestian term "Naqba" in relation to the events of 1948 antisemitic. While the use of Zionist in this context may be inadvisable, I cannot see that in itself as antisemitic.

The fact that there are considerable efforts to present those things as antisemitic has very much muddied the waters.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 06 May 18 - 02:34 PM

keith -there are right wing jews and left wing jews and they are bound to disagree. whatever this is a political issue and nothing to do with racism - having a different religion does not mean you are a different race.

in the west of scotland there is a problem with sectarianism - no-one calls this racism. again, it's politics

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 18 - 02:51 PM

Almost two-thirds of the British public believe Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour party has a problem with racism or religious prejudice, a new poll has revealed.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-party-racism-anti-semitism-religion-jewish-ukip-israel-pales

“The failure of the Labour Party to deal consistently and effectively with antisemitic incidents in recent years risks lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionally antisemitic.” That was one of the principal findings of the House of Commons Home Affairs Select Committee in the 2015-2017 parliament."

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 18 - 03:06 PM

Paaage not found byut it makes not a bit of difference
The tems "Antisemitism" and "criticism of Israel" are now indistinguishable these accusations are meaningless
The fact that yioor quote ia an accusation made by Chukka Umna
whose visit to Israel coincides perfectly with when these accusations first began rather makes my point, doncha think!!
Umunna is associated with the Labour Friends of Israel; along with Liam Byrne, he made an official visit to Israel in October 2012 as part of the LFI’s UK-Israel Economic Dialogue group.[23][24]
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 18 - 03:08 PM

Before you make capital of it - sorry about the typos
Just spilled coffee over my new ****** keyboard
G'night folks - The Woman in White eckons
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 18 - 03:10 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 18 - 04:26 PM

Not just Jews, and not enemies of Labour.
The Mirror today,
"Top Labour figures have admitted the anti-Semitism row hurt the party's chances in the local elections.
The party was widely tipped to take Barnet which has the highest proportion of Jewish residents of any borough in Britain but defeated councillors and activists blamed .

Barry Rawlings, Head of Barnet's Labour group, said the party lost because "so many of our neighbours believe we tolerate anti-Semitism".
He told the Guardian: "What happened instead was an election day phenomenon that I never want to experience again. Jewish residents voted in protest against Labour."
ur."
'Labour lost Barnet because Jews that had previously voted for them could no longer do so'
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/top-labour-figures-admit-anti-12491525

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 18 - 04:27 PM

Same piece,
"Today shadow chancellor John McDonnell acknowledged that it had been a problem.
On BBC1's Andrew Marr Show, Mr McDonnell said he would be meeting Barnet councillors this week, adding: "Anti-Semitism certainly had its effect, there's no doubt about it, in Barnet itself.
"I'm hoping that the measures we have put in place now, the Chakrabarti Report implemented in full, Jennie Formby the new general secretary - Jeremy Corbyn said to Jennie 'your first priority is tackling this issue'." "

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 18 - 04:43 PM

It is evident that the Labour Party does indeed have "a problem with antisemitism". What is less clear is whether there is actually any significant antisemitism there, or whether what the problem is that there has been a successful effort by enemies of the Labour Party (including a minority who oppose the move away from New Labour towards democratic socialism), together with the media, to present Labour in that light.

I've looked for actual evidence in press coverage, and I haven't been able to see it. The trouble is that denying it's existence is interpreted as the kind of protesting-too-much that serves to confirm a charge - so instead the strategy of "accepting it and dealing with it" has been adopted.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 18 - 08:17 PM

I think you've hit the nail on the head Mac - that is my reading of the situation anyway
To prove there is genuine antisemitism in the Labour Party one has to ask the question, why has a party that was founded largely by emigre Jews fleeing the European pogroms, that took to the streets to oppose Mosley, that led the fight in Spain to oppose the rise of fascism whose whole stance has been anti racist and anti-sectarian - the only parliamentary party in Westminster that can be described as fully multi-racial... suddenly, over the last three to four years taken to hating Jews ?
I think the history of this lies in the history of these attacks
Up to Corbyn's leadership there was not a whiff of an accusation of Jew hating.
Along come Corbyn and the first reaction was a sudden flurry os activity from the old, right wing 'New Labour crowd (brought into being by W.D.F. war-criminal, Tony Blair)
A load of young people moved in to consolidate Corby's leadership - there is no history of antisemitism among Britain's young people, especially the left.
Corbyn announced his support for the Palestinian, several meetings of 'Labour's Friends of Israel' were arranged by the Israeli Government which included TOM WATSON, RUTH SMEETH and voila - labour has shot to the top of the Antisemitism polls
THIS SEEMS TO BE AS NEAR A CONFESSION explaining what's going on
Add to all this the fact that it is now virtually impossible to distinguish the difference between genuine antisemitism and criticism of Israeli terrorism, it is pretty clear to me where these accusations have originated
If not, why has an anti-racist Party, with its roots firmly embedded in the Jewish cause, backed by young people with no record whatever in antisemitism suddenly got a problem   
Maaaaaybe Israel sees an advantage in INVOLVING ITSELF IN BRITISH POLITICS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 18 - 04:37 AM

What is less clear is whether there is actually any significant antisemitism there, or whether what the problem is that there has been a successful effort by enemies of the Labour Party (including a minority who oppose the move away from New Labour towards democratic socialism), together with the media, to present Labour in that light

Corbyn and Gwynne have said that it is not just a smear campaign by Corbyn's opponents, and Corbyn does not want people caliming that because it is harming the party.
Guardian,
"Following trade union boss Len McCluskey’s claim that some Labour MPs were “polluting” the leader’s efforts to tackle the problem, Mr Gwynne was asked whether anti-Semitism was being used to attack Mr Corbyn.
He replied: “No, and Jeremy has made that very clear that the notion that these are smears against the Labour Party he does not accept that.”
Mr Gwynne added: “It is perfectly acceptable for Labour MPs to call out anti-Semitism in our party and in our movement and it is incumbent on our party and on our movement to act and root it out.”
He said people needed to “acknowledge that there is an issue of anti-Semitism on the left of British politics”.
“It’s not just something that affects the right of British politics – there is an element in the left.
http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/national/16191987.Labour_have_not_done_enough_in_tackling_anti_Semitism__Andrew_Gwynne_say

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 04:55 AM

Kevin, in answer to your point check out the recent Parliamentary review that was undertaken by a cross party group. It was very thorough and, in my opinion, unbiased. In its terms of reference you will find the following -

This report focuses to some extent on the Labour Party, because it has been the main source of recent allegations of antisemitism associated with political parties. It should be emphasised that the majority of antisemitic abuse and crime has historically been, and continues to be, committed by individuals associated with (or motivated by) far-right wing parties and political activity. Although there is little reliable or representative data on contemporary sources of antisemitism, CST figures suggest that around three-quarters of all politically-motivated antisemitic incidents come from far-right sources.23 However, the fact that incidents of antisemitism—particularly online—have made their way into a major political party is a new and deplorable phenomenon, and one which has not recently affected the mainstream right wing of British politics. It is particularly shocking that it should affect a party whose founding principles are based on equality.

Something that many on here fail to acknowledge.

Read the report for yourself though and draw your own conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 18 - 05:15 AM

Something that many on here fail to acknowledge.

Because it is too obvious to need acknowledging!

Of course anti-Semitism is rampant on the far-right.
It always was.
But, here we have it in one of the mainstream parties. Labour.
That is shocking.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 05:16 AM

BTW. Just to put things in perspective this is a summary of the actual gains and losses

Labour +79
Conservative -24
Lib Dem +75
Green +8
UKIP -123
Other -5

It is difficult to tell the actual shift because of the massive loss for UKIP. Assuming the Torys (AKA BlueKIP) picked up most of those then the Tory loss becomes even more significant. Regardless of that, no matter how you spin it, Labour gained 79 seats while the Tories lost 24.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 05:17 AM

I wonder who it was that was saying there is no antisemitism in any other party but Labour?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 18 - 05:17 AM

As you quoted Dave, "However, the fact that incidents of antisemitism—particularly online—have made their way into a major political party is a new and deplorable phenomenon, and one which has not recently affected the mainstream right wing of British politics."

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 18 - 05:20 AM

Dave,
I wonder who it was that was saying there is no antisemitism in any other party but Labour?

That was me and I was right.
It is not a problem in any other mainstream party apart from Labour according to your own quote!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 18 - 05:27 AM

The argument about the extent of antisemitism in the Labour party can run on and on. Those that wish to deny it is a problem should study the local election results. A Tory drubbing was anticipated by all. It did not happen! To say the ongoing dispute over antisemitism in the Labour
party did not impact voting patterns is strictly rose tinted lefty gymnastics away from reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 05:33 AM

I also find it strange that those who cherry pick from the report without actually having read it assume that others have done the same. It is the only reason I can thing of why the following passages are never quoted

27.No party is immune to ‘bad apples’, and it would be naïve to assume that tackling antisemitism in the Labour Party would eliminate it from political discourse altogether. Antisemitism is a problem of such gravity that no party can afford to be complacent. It is an issue that should transcend party loyalties and inter-party conflict. (Paragraph 128)

28.Other political parties must not assume that antisemitic political discourse is an issue affecting the Labour Party alone. The Liberal Democrats in particular should pay heed to the need to act swiftly and decisively to deal with antisemitism within their ranks. We were disappointed by the manner in which their Leader, Tim Farron, referred to disciplinary processes rather than explicitly condemning antisemitic remarks made by members of his Party, and we were surprised to learn that Cllr David Ward remains an elected representative of the Liberal Democrats, despite his repeated antisemitic comments. All of the main political parties should examine whether the reforms recommended in this report could be applied to their own processes for training and disciplining their members and activists. Political leaders should also make themselves responsible for taking swift investigatory or disciplinary action when a party member is identified by Twitter as being a perpetrator of abuse. (Paragraph 129)

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 05:36 AM

Of course it impacted the result, Iains, particularly in those areas of high Jewish residence. The thing we must ask ourselves in light of the passage I highlight above is why the mainstream media chose to highlight the "Labour party alone" when even the Parliamentary review accepts it is an issue affecting all parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 05:54 AM

"Those that wish to deny it is a problem should study the local election results"
The election result show a creeping increasing support for Labour - if the accusations of Antisemitism and all the other things that have hurled against them had had the slightest effect Labour would be crashing in flames, it is not
THe press has mounted one of the most vicious campaigns against Corbyn I have ever witnessed, yet his fortunes are still on the rise - that says everything aa far as I am concerned.
Unfortunately, the British tendency towards racism (go look at the percentages) mean that antisemitism is something that doesn't concern them overly
You haven't responded to my question "why has Labour, with its historty of anti-raism, suddenly become an "antisemitic" party ?
You can add thos that - what form does that "antisemitism" take
As far as I can see, it is based entirely on criticism of Isreal and their supporters
It is the Israel regime who have made their policies "Jewish" - it is not surprising that some of their opponents have taken their lead in this
I won't bother to waste my daily ration of replying to Keith on his moronic repetition of dis proven claims - I'll save that for later
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 06:21 AM

It appears that definition of antisemitism has changed from those who do not like Jews to those who criticise Israel, Jim. I would draw your attention to the section parliamentary report defining antisemitism and the Criticism of the IHRA/EUMC definition which some on here seem to think are the be all and end all.

As Iains said, the discussion of antisemitism in the Labour party could go on and on but it will have to go on and on without me. The parliamentary report more than supports the case that this is not simply a Labour party issue and that is good enough for me. If anyone wants to imply that the press is right and commission is wrong then I suggest they write to their MP with a complaint against the commission.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 06:41 AM

This, from a pamphlet I picked up at our local arts centre a few weeks ago
Jim Carroll
Jewish Labour activists defend Corbyn as Israel lobby attacks Asa Winstanley Activism and BDS Beat 26 March 2018

Jewish Labour activists demonstrated in support of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn on Monday afternoon in London.
Left-wing group Jewish Voice for Labour has praised Corbyn’s “consistent commitment to anti-racism” and condemned current right-wing attacks.
The show of support comes after two Israel lobby groups issued a call on Sunday to demonstrate against alleged anti-Semitism in the Labour Party, for which they hold Corbyn responsible.
But Jewish Voice for Labour has called an emergency rally as a counter-demonstration, accusing the Board of Deputies of British Jews and the Jewish Leadership Council of “playing party politics” ahead of May’s local elections.
Mick Davis, chief executive of the ruling Conservative Party, is former chairman of the Jewish Leadership Council – a leading part of the UK’s Israel lobby.
On Monday morning’s edition of BBC Radio 4’s flagship Today program, the Jewish Leadership Council’s current chairperson Jonathan Goldstein issued an unprecedented personal attack on Corbyn.
Goldstein claimed that “Jeremy Corbyn is now the figurehead for an anti-Semitic political culture, based upon obsessive hatred of Israel, conspiracy theories and fake news.”

Labour witch hunt
Since Corbyn became leader of the Labour Party in 2015, he has faced relentless attacks from right-wingers and supporters of Israel due to his long-standing support for Palestinian human rights.
Exaggerated and often entirely fabricated charges of anti-Semitism against Labour activists have been used to attack Corbyn and his grassroots supporters.
These activists have often been Jewish themselves, targeted for supporting Corbyn and for longstanding Palestine solidarity activism.
Polls ahead of May’s local elections have predicted that Labour under Corbyn will make significant electoral gains.
Jewish Voice for Labour on Monday accused the Israel lobby and its allies of using the current wave of anti-Semitism allegations to undermine Labour’s chances.

Appalling
The JVL statement said that as Jews in Labour currently campaigning in local elections, “we are appalled by the actions and statements of the Board of Deputies. They do not represent us or the great majority of Jews in the party who share Jeremy Corbyn’s vision for social justice and fairness.”
“Jeremy’s consistent commitment to anti-racism is all the more needed now,” the group added.
Jewish Voice for Labour also accused Israel lobby groups of being “silent” on the “massively more anti-Semitism on the right of politics.”
They pointed to a “senior ex-adviser to the prime minister who recently used a national newspaper to dredge up anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.”
In February former Theresa May advisor Nick Timothy wrote an article in the Conservative-supporting Telegraph accusing Jewish billionaire George Soros of a “secret plot to thwart Brexit.”
The piece was widely condemned for “dog-whistle anti-Semitism.”
But some on the pro-Israel right supported the piece. Anti-Muslim journalist Melanie Phillips claimed “there was nothing whatsoever anti-Jewish, with or without the dog-whistle, in anything Timothy wrote.”
Soros is often a hate figure for right-wing anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists, especially those promoted by the Hungarian government – which is closely allied with Israel.
Mark Elf, the Jewish anti-Zionist who has for years blogged at Jews Sans Frontieres tweeted on Monday evening that the Jewish Voice for Labour counter-demonstration outnumbered the pro-Israel one.
Times correspondent Lucy Fisher tweeted that there were ten Conservative lawmakers at the demonstration, but only a “handful” of Labour lawmakers “milling around solo.”

Mural controversy
The current wave of right-wing, anti-Palestinian attacks on Corbyn’s leadership was triggered last week after a Facebook comment by Corbyn from six years ago was dredged up.
Labour lawmaker Luciana Berger Tweeted a screenshot of Corbyn commenting on Facebook in 2012, criticizing the removal of a mural in East London titled “Freedom for Humanity.”
Berger is parliamentary chairperson of the Jewish Labour Movement – a group which lobbies for Israel and has strong links with the Israeli embassy.
The group said in a statement on Sunday night it would be joining the demonstration against Corbyn.
Corbyn responded to Berger with regret over the old Facebook comment and said he should have “looked more closely at the image” of the mural first.
He also issued a statement on Sunday saying he was “sincerely sorry for the pain which has been caused” by what he described as the “anti-Semitism [which] has occurred in pockets within the Labour Party.”
Conspiracy theories
Mear One, the Los Angeles artist behind the 2012 mural, on Sunday denied it was anti-Semitic.
In a 2012 video showing how he painted it, he said it depicted “the elite banker cartel known as the Rothschilds, Rockerfellers, Morgans, the ruling class elite few, the Wizards of Oz … The symbol of the Free Mason pyramid rises behind this group.”
Lutfur Rahman, a left-winger and then the elected mayor of Tower Hamlets in East London, had the mural removed, saying at the time that whether “intentional or otherwise, the images of the bankers perpetuate anti-Semitic propaganda about conspiratorial Jewish domination of financial and political institutions.”
In the late 19th century, some leading members of the Rothschild banking family financially supported early Zionist colonization of Palestine.
Indeed, the infamous Balfour Declaration – which announced the British Empire’s intent to hand Palestine over to colonization by the Zionist movement – was addressed to Lionel Walter Rothschild.
Zionism, however, was an idea intricately tied to British imperialism and principally supported by Christian Zionists, while being opposed by a majority of prominent British Jews at the time.
Yet British and American anti-Jewish and right-wing conspiracy theorists ignore these facts and regularly cite the Rothschilds’ role in Palestine as part of their claims asserting secretive “Rothschild” control over the world.
Palestinians have repeatedly made clear that they want such conspiracy theorists to have no part in their struggle.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 18 - 06:54 AM

So Dave, only Labour and the LibDems mentioned by name, and no other party has suffered any complaints at all from the Jews in their party. Only Labour Jews have complained about it, and quite a lot of them.
That report is out of date anyway, being published in 2016.

It appears that definition of antisemitism has changed from those who do not like Jews to those who criticise Israel, Jim.

No it has not Dave. You are making shit up now.

Of course it impacted the result, Iains, particularly in those areas of high Jewish residence. The thing we must ask ourselves in light of the passage I highlight above is why the mainstream media chose to highlight the "Labour party alone" when even the Parliamentary review accepts it is an issue affecting all parties.

It lost them votes in areas of high Jewish residence like Barnet, but it may have gained them anti-Semite votes elsewhere.

The report says, " It notes that "the failure of the Labour Party consistently to deal with antisemitic incidents in recent years risks lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionally anti-Semitic", but stresses that all parties must examine whether the Committee's recommended reforms should be applied to their own processes for training and disciplining their members and activists."

Other parties should examine themselves, but only Labour is described as having a problem and failing to deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 May 18 - 07:00 AM

amazing that all recent posts on here concentrate on supposed anti-semitism in the labour party while ignoring the racism and anti-semitism in other parties. i'd guess labour voters are well-used to relentless smear tactics in the press and tire of the cynical opportunism of the blairites (who seem relatively unconcerned about the death of hundreds of thousands of mostly muslim iraqi citizens)

likewise the right can happily live with the shambolic and callous tory government and their shameless dealings with the murderous saudi regime who are using uk weapons to kill defenceless yemeni (mostly) muslims

recent voting shows the 2 parties on 35% - maybe we all need to come to some accommodation with our consciences when choosing how to vote. stopping the wars is always the most important thing for me

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 18 - 07:23 AM

Dave the major point to take away from this is that antisemitism may exist in pockets everywhere but this time around it has clearly impacted election results. Labour will self destruct unless Corbyn deals with the problem quickly.

"likewise the right can happily live with the shambolic and callous tory government and their shameless dealings with the murderous saudi regime who are using uk weapons to kill defenceless yemeni (mostly) muslims"
Was it not Bliar Blair and mythical WMD that led us to war in Iraq, and how many has that killed? Your argument may be valid but sadly lacks true perspective!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 18 - 07:24 AM

Pete,
amazing that all recent posts on here concentrate on supposed anti-semitism in the labour party while ignoring the racism and anti-semitism in other parties.

because there is no evidence of any.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 07:30 AM

"Was it not Bliar Blair and mythical WMD that led us to war in Iraq, "
No it was not - it was the unquenchable thirst for oil that set this moving long before Blair joined the melee
You are partly right in one respect - Corbyn needs to deal with the accusations of antisemitism
If it exists as a serious problem, you need to explain why it does and what it is.
Nobody has to date and Keith's mindset demonstrates it is no more than a stick to beat a decent party
The Israelis have made their bahaviour "Jewish" and in doing so they have exposed the Jewish people to yet another threat of international antisemitism - as if the last six million victims wasn't enough
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 May 18 - 07:42 AM

i don't think you read my post iain where i specifically criticise blairites and tories for their warmongering. amazing that such violence and murder can be ignored in the desire to find some stick to beat labour and specifically jeremy corbyn with. i suspect the 'crime' that the left make is to seek peace for all- including the palestinians. some folk just can't tolerate that idea

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 07:46 AM

I agree, Iains. I said as much. The issue affected Labour's ability to win seats, particularly where the Jewish population is high. The fact that they still won seats and were not wiped out by the issues does them credit. But, yes, Corbyn does need to address the issue. Whether you and I agree on what the issue actually is is irrelevant. It still needs to be addressed.

I have stated quite clearly that it is not an issue for Labour alone and the parliamentary commission agrees. I think he should take the initiative and lead a movement to eradicate racism, sexism and any other types of prejudice in all its forms from the country in General and Westminster in particular. But I suspect my voice is not heard so high.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 07:49 AM

"because there is no evidence of any. "
WHAT
The Tories were accused of acute Islamophobia several years ago - there has not been a single inquiry into that accusation
The British Home Secretary has just lost her job for her party's policy of detaining and threatening to deport immigrants back to where they came from half a century ago

Planet Zog must be very warm this time of year - put a hat on - the sun's getting to you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 08:14 AM

You can add to that racist mix a foreign secretary (of all positions) who is still living in the world of "picaninnies" and "watermelon smiles"
No evidence - are you joking?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 18 - 08:47 AM

Dave,
I have stated quite clearly that it is not an issue for Labour alone and the parliamentary commission agrees.

Yes it is an issue for everyone, every group and every party.
But it has only been a problem for one party, Labour, according to the Commission.

Jim,
The Tories were accused of acute Islamophobia several years ago

They are constantly accused of all sorts.

The British Home Secretary has just lost her job for her party's policy of detaining and threatening to deport immigrants back to where they came from half a century ago

Completely untrue. She lost it for misleading Parliament about targets.
Of course they had targets. Labour had them too and Abbott said they still would.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 08:57 AM

Jim, ignore it. It is becoming increasing apparent that my analysis of 'Different morality, Different language, Different planet' is entirely true. It is like trying to have a conversation with an alien who communicates in a way we will never understand. I have given up and heartily recommend everyone else does the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 09:20 AM

"Jim, ignore it. It is becoming increasing apparent that my analysis of 'Different morality,"
There's nothing to "ignore" Dave - he's more or less admitted that there is racism in the Tory party but he doewen't want to comment for fear of incriminating them
#Of course they are being accused of everything - they are guilty of everything theey are accused of
Their Home Secretary has just 0resigned because of a racist policy put in place by the Prime Minister - doesn't come much higher up the political pecking order than that
The foreign secretary - the one who has to deal with all these 'Johnny Foreigners' is a loudmouthed serial racist' - that augers well fro our foreign relations   
Keith - of all people, with his support for wartime antisemitism, is the last person to accuse anybody of antisemitism
Give u while these right-wing extremists are throwing British politics politic open to an extremist foreign power
Don't think so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 18 - 10:21 AM

Dave, your report is two years old.
It only found anti-Semitism in Labour.
Labour's anti-Semitism has got dramatically worse since then and apart from Livingstone all the cases we have discussed here came after it.

You have just come across the report and imagine it still has some relevance.
It does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 10:24 AM

As this thread seems to have become a wank fest for those wishing to denigrate the Labourt party.

99...

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 10:24 AM

Change hands!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 18 - 10:50 AM

They denigrate themselves.
All the complaints came from inside the party.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 May 18 - 12:01 PM

I'm still on "Date: 06 May 18 - 04:43 PM " trying to find time to catch up and read the rest...
[more fool me..]


Pete - this way madness lies...



K**** - behave your sneaky self, you know very well we know what you are doing...

You get cold shouldered out of one pub for your extreme views,
so move to a different pub on the other side of town
in the hope no-one there has heard your crap before
so you can start it up all over again...

Guess what it's the 21'st century,
pub landlords can easily communicate their blacklists to each other..

ok.. end of strained metaphor...

..and I'm off back in time to catch up with the rest of this thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 May 18 - 12:06 PM

Hoops Gentlemen, hoops.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 May 18 - 12:11 PM

K**** - ever thought you might have more success spreading your bile
if you just voluntarily cut your losses,
moved far away from mudcat to where we can no longer keep an eye on you,
and found an entirely different forum somewhere else on the internet
to concentrate all your spare time in...

pastures new and all that.....

After you settled in some place new, you could even send a postcard once or twice a year..
absence makes the heart grow fonder.....

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 18 - 12:40 PM

My views are moderate and mainstream.
The only extreme views on display are those of the Far Left, which dominate all political debate on Mudcat now.

But prove me wrong.
Quote something extreme from me.
Good luck with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 12:52 PM

I heard it was absinthe makes the fart go Honda.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 May 18 - 01:08 PM

The bank holiday seems to have reset K****'s internal system clock back a few weeks...

That must likely explain his word for word regurgitation of his own discredited script soundbytes from several threads ago...????

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 01:17 PM

My views are moderate and mainstream."
Implants, slave-owning Travellers, brainwashed children, "silly antisemitism......?
Sure they are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 May 18 - 01:22 PM

"My views are moderate and mainstream."

I'm trying to decide if that sounds better in a Dalek or Cyberman voice...???

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 18 - 02:31 PM

Jim, quote me.
Most of those were expert views I was just reporting.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 03:10 PM

I've quoted you ad nauseum - even if it were true that others made them they are your views - you are responsible from posting them on this forum AS YOUR VIEWS no mythical figure of your owen invention ever has
Anybody whp holds those vies is a raving racist
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 18 - 04:20 AM

Jim, if I had extreme views you should be able to find them in current threads.
You can't because it is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 18 - 04:21 AM

Sorry, Jim. You fell for it again. Hertford is now awash with...

Well, best not dwell on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 18 - 08:11 AM

Confusing day Dave - I'll try not to awaken the sleeping troll again
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 18 - 01:49 PM

Well I haven't dipped into this thread for several days, but as my finger hovered over the thread title I thought I'll have a little bet with my myself first. I bet myself that K**** would have tried to turn it into a Labour antisemitism thread at the first opportunity as if it were the only issue at stake in local party politics all over our hallowed nation.

And guess what!

Predictable, boring, repetitive in the extreme, obsessive, utterly vexatious. Pathetic. The death of sensible discussion in any political thread he "contributes" to.

And I trust that the man whose name I will not name will remember that any attempt to respond to me in any way, shape or form would be useless. Oh God, he will anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 18 - 01:56 PM

Don't feed the........aaaww, Fuggeddit!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 18 - 05:27 PM

He'll find that I've fed him flintrock eggs, John!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 18 - 04:42 AM

Flintrock eggs. Mmmmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 18 - 04:43 AM

Sorry Steve, but the Israel thread is now just discussing Labour anti-Semitism too.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 May 18 - 04:57 AM

Is it possible to have any thread at all that does not descend into slagging off the Labour party or bringing up the Palestinian conflict?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Iains
Date: 09 May 18 - 05:21 AM

D the G. You are a tad sensitive. Threads go where they go. Many seem to spend their time picking on Keith or rubbishing Brexit. Try starting a thread on weeds!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 May 18 - 05:37 AM

Not sensitive at all Iains. I suspect even a thread on plants will attract unwarranted attention when we start to discuss the Wandering Jew... :-D

I know threads will go where they will and accept that. In fact I said as much on a recent thread. What I object to, and Joe confirmed it is the reason some threads get closed, is when they become entirely derailed and a battleground for 3 or 4 posters. Still, c'est la vie as they say in Scunthorpe.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 18 - 06:07 AM

I could start a recipe thread, Dave. Or even bring recipes into this one. Got back from Rome this weekend, and now that I've got over the worst bout of food poisoning ever, probably picked up from a defective drinking fountain at the Vatican (two days' upchucking and four days of the running tom-tits are an epic way of losing weight, by the way, I've discovered, though you do end up with an arse like a half-chewed blood orange), I can begin to think about food again, though I haven't got past cornflakes and lightly-buttered toast as yet...

We had "pizza pinza" in one pizzeria - it has a more fermented and bubbly crust than normal pizza and is gorgeous. Whatever toppings you like. Other nights we had the genuine pasta alla carbonara and matriciana, both of which the Romans are fiercely solicitous. Occasionally with a bonus side dish of fava bean purée. God those guys can cook. I'm off to find some dried split fava beans in a minute.

Maybe talking about food in a non-Israel thread is a symptom of rabid extremism or a sign that we've "lost." I'm sure we'll be told. Do you care, Dave? Now may I remind you that it's been a bloody long time since Morrisons Nero d'Avola has been on offer? 'Ave a word!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 18 - 06:10 AM

Solicitous of

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 May 18 - 06:34 AM

Bugger :-( At least you had the bonus of Liverpool winning while you were there so hiding in the bathroom was probably for the best :-) I bought some British fava beans by Hodmedod's , both split and whole, from our samples shop. Very nice they are. The split ones can be added to any soup or casserole while cooking. The whole ones needed to be soaked first. Out of interest it said on the packet that fava was from the Latin Vicia Faba, native to the Old World, bearing large pods containing edible seeds. Bean is the Germanic version of the same thing so a fava bean is a bean bean!

Right. Off to start my annual thread on Eurovision. That should be safe enough although Israel did make it through to the final. I would comment that this is an indication of Israel's influence in Europe but that is probably antisemitic ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Iains
Date: 09 May 18 - 06:46 AM

"Still, c'est la vie as they say in Scunthorpe."
I used to shop quite frequently in sunnyscunny the garden town?
I heard Polish quite frequently but rarely if ever French.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Iains
Date: 09 May 18 - 06:58 AM

Here you are Dave. To nip argument in the bud so to speak:

https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/houseplants/wandering-jew/growing-wandering-jew-plants.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 18 - 07:24 AM

My lurgy didn't start till we were back home, Dave, so the holiday was not in the least spoiled. Watched the match on telly with a very down-at-heart Roman commentator! And that final "handball" was NOT a bloody penalty in a million years!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 May 18 - 07:58 AM

Oh, good, glad to hear it. Not that you were ill, of course, but that the bugs had the decency to wait until you were back home!

I didn't see the match I'm afraid so cannot comment on anyone handling his balls.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 May 18 - 05:16 PM

It's as well you didn’t pick up that in a fountain in Jerusalem, Steve, or mentioning that could turn out controversial. Identifying the Vatican as a source of food poisoning doesn’t register as sectarianist, outside Norther Ireland anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone planning a long UK night tonight?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 18 - 05:25 PM

I mentioned it to Joe, and he was fine with it... :-)