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Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?

GUEST,guest 05 May 18 - 01:56 PM
GUEST,Peter 05 May 18 - 02:05 PM
Joe Offer 05 May 18 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,OP 05 May 18 - 03:15 PM
gillymor 05 May 18 - 03:38 PM
Jim McLean 05 May 18 - 03:53 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 May 18 - 04:19 PM
GUEST,OP 05 May 18 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,Morris-ey 05 May 18 - 05:55 PM
Will Fly 06 May 18 - 03:42 AM
Allan Conn 06 May 18 - 06:05 AM
GUEST,OP 06 May 18 - 08:48 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 18 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,Brian Grayson 06 May 18 - 11:47 PM
Jack Campin 07 May 18 - 06:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 May 18 - 06:32 AM
GUEST,Peter 07 May 18 - 06:42 AM
GUEST,Peter 07 May 18 - 07:03 AM
Big Al Whittle 07 May 18 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 07 May 18 - 12:28 PM
meself 07 May 18 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 07 May 18 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,OP 07 May 18 - 04:21 PM
GUEST 07 May 18 - 04:56 PM
Big Al Whittle 07 May 18 - 11:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 18 - 03:27 AM
GUEST,OP 08 May 18 - 04:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 18 - 04:28 AM
Andy7 08 May 18 - 04:50 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 May 18 - 05:21 AM
GUEST,Modette 08 May 18 - 05:26 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 May 18 - 05:46 AM
Will Fly 08 May 18 - 05:47 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 08 May 18 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,kenny 08 May 18 - 07:54 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 08 May 18 - 12:00 PM
Big Al Whittle 08 May 18 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,kenny 08 May 18 - 12:37 PM
GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery 10 May 18 - 10:54 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 18 - 11:25 AM
David Carter (UK) 10 May 18 - 12:23 PM
Jim Carroll 10 May 18 - 01:37 PM
GUEST 10 May 18 - 02:52 PM
Jim Carroll 10 May 18 - 03:15 PM
David Carter (UK) 10 May 18 - 03:21 PM
meself 10 May 18 - 03:32 PM
The Sandman 10 May 18 - 04:58 PM
GUEST,Observer 11 May 18 - 01:51 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 18 - 03:34 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 18 - 03:47 AM
GUEST,Mark Bluemel 11 May 18 - 04:26 AM
GUEST 11 May 18 - 04:49 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 18 - 05:04 AM
GUEST,Observer 11 May 18 - 09:30 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 18 - 09:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 11 May 18 - 12:27 PM
Jim Carroll 11 May 18 - 12:56 PM
GUEST 11 May 18 - 01:36 PM
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Subject: Censorship
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 05 May 18 - 01:56 PM

Anybody been told at a folk club that they couldn't sing the songs of certain folk singers?
I belonged for a short time to a local folk club, whose organiser required prior notice of all songs to be sung at the next monthly meeting. This went fine for a while, until I asked to sing something by Jake Thackeray, a singer who I have long admired and enjoyed.
I was told by the organiser that I couldn't do anything by JT as the organiser's wife, who always attended, found many of JT's lyrics to be near the knuckle. I queried this and was told that as the organiser needed his wife's support there was nothing he would/could do. At this point I gave up attending, although other singers who I told about this couldn't understand the policy.
Anyone else come across this situation elsewhere?


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Subject: RE: Censorship
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 05 May 18 - 02:05 PM

This is an international forum. It would be easier to answer if we knew what country you were in. Also is this a guest booking club or a singaround / song circle?

I have never heard of this in the UK. Apart from a handful of concert oriented clubs who pre-book their support acts I can't think of a club that hasn't welcomed floor singers "off the street".


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 May 18 - 02:49 PM

Well, if the organizer's wife objects, then that's the law in that folk club. Sounds like a local matter to me, that must be handled locally according to the traditions and power structure of the club. But if the organizer's wife has that much control, I think you're out of luck.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,OP
Date: 05 May 18 - 03:15 PM

The club is in England, and the performers, mostly amateur, would be selected for the next meeting, in the local pub, by the organiser, from a list of those available. The organiser then drew up a brief programme for the evening, which was available to all on the night.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: gillymor
Date: 05 May 18 - 03:38 PM

It wasn't a ban on a specific artist but I sang the Pogue's version of "The Recruiting Sargent" at one of our local pubs some time back and was told very firmly after the set by the owner, who it turns out was from Northern Ireland, "No more of that rebel (crap) in here." I was guesting with the house band so I finished my drink and left.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 May 18 - 03:53 PM

I left Scotland in 1966 to record an LP of Scottish Republican Songs in London for Major Minor, sung by Nigel Denver because Glasgow city Council banned some of my songs. I still have a newspaper cutting from the Sunday Post where two Labour MPs complained about me "insulting the Queen",
Times have changed, today there was a march in Glasgow for Scottish Independence and the police reckoned there were over 90,000 marchers.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 May 18 - 04:19 PM

I don't run a club any more but if I had control of one I would apply a policy of anyone could sing anything. Once. If I didn't like it you would not get on again.

Yes, I would be a dictator:-)


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,OP
Date: 05 May 18 - 05:10 PM

There are two things that gall me here:
1) the organiser had encouraged me previously to sing "Maids when you're young", which contains some fairly graphic imagery, and 2) my perception is that a lot of folk songs involve bodily functions of various sorts! The whole thing seemed rather irrational.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 05 May 18 - 05:55 PM

Vin Garbutt was subjected to some vile abuse and banning from some of the not so folk community.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 May 18 - 03:42 AM

If you mix personal social or political opinions with music, then you lay yourself open to critical comment - and more - from audiences, club organisers, etc. You pays your money...

I have, like most of us, strong opinions on a whole range of matters, but I've never mixed those with the music I perform. (The nearest I get to social comment is "Brother, Can You Spare A Dime"). For me, music is not a political or social instrument, but for pleasure and entertainment. Just my personal choice, and good luck to those who think otherwise.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 06 May 18 - 06:05 AM

Personally I don't see any problem with politically motivated songs but I am less keen on performers who give long political lectures between songs. Let the songs mostly speak for themselves.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,OP
Date: 06 May 18 - 08:48 AM

I don't think Jake Thackeray's songs could ever be described as politically motivated, just, in some cases, rather suggestive/smutty. And this, to my mind, is where the anomaly lies - many folk songs are equally so. If you banned folk songs from a folk club based on their high smut level, the club would have a vastly smaller, and dare I say it less interesting repertoire.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 18 - 11:17 AM

I was amused at the story of when Eric Bogle sand his wonderful anti-racist "II Hate Wogs" and a member of the audience punched him
Have to say I admire both (sort of)
Despite urban legends abot the Singers Club being restricted, MacColl, Seeger and the Critics were constantly being asked not to sing political (or even newly-written) songs
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,Brian Grayson
Date: 06 May 18 - 11:47 PM

I once sang Stan Rogers's 'The House of Orange' at a club in Wollongong NSW, and an inebriated male person of Hibernian accent* threatened me, then tried to attack me. I had to be spirited out the back door...
Maybe we should all pre-announce our choice of songs for the set and invite objections. Ha!

*Oops - I nearly wrote 'a drunken Irishman'.**

** Damn, I did...


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 May 18 - 06:17 AM

I once read an anecdote from the Scottish lutenist Rob McKillop. He was doing a recital of Scottish Renaissance music in a village in Fife which had historically been part of the fiefdom of the Earls of Wemyss, whose wealth mainly came from the coalfield around the village (operated as a serf economy with the usual brutality). They were also notable patrons of music. So, Rob announced he was going to do some pieces from a Wemyss family lute book...

Voice from the back of the hall: "IF YOU PLAY ANYTHING FROM THEY CUNTS I'LL KICK YOUR HEAD IN!"


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 06:32 AM

I understand what youare saying, Guest OP, but I would hardly call that censorship. It is just a preference for certain kinds of music at that particular club. If someone was to turn up with a wall of sound and play Black Sabbath's greatest hits I suspect they would be met with similar disapproval!


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 07 May 18 - 06:42 AM

It isn't disapproval that gets me but the need to have your songs approved a week in advance.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 07 May 18 - 07:03 AM

Oops, its a monthly club, even worse.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 18 - 08:01 AM

When I was doing lots of Irish gigs, it was fairly standard some places, usually English pubs wanted rebel songs. some places, usually Irish pubs and clubs, wanted no rebel songs. the customer's always right, if they're paying you.

i've been told that mysong about Ewardian serial murderer George Joseph Smith is politically unacceptable in an age when two women are murdered every week. If its requested though, I play it.


https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/george-joseph-smith


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 07 May 18 - 12:28 PM

Well, the silly woman in question wouldn't be happy in France! Jake's main inspiration was the great Georges Brassens, a French national treasure; indeed, Jake translated a number of Brassens' songs including the song, which maybe, offended the "silly woman: The Gorilla


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: meself
Date: 07 May 18 - 12:48 PM

Well - years back, a very enthusiastic bar-owner was about to sign a contract for my services - he had the pen in his hand, poised above the line - very dramatic - when his wife appeared, and said, "You're not signing that, are you?" A look of astonishment came over his face, and he said, "You listened to the tape, didn't you? ... Didn't you like it?" She just rolled her eyes, turned her head and blew out some smoke, and said, "Go ahead ... " He said, "No, no - if you didn't like it ...."   

That's the closest I've come to the experience in question.

(And to this day, I blame that woman for my failure to become a rock-star).


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 07 May 18 - 01:34 PM

I `ad that Eric Tebble in my cab the other day looking really down in the dumps. `im as runs the "Pig & Whistle" folk club with `is old woman
I said, "Morning Eric. What are you looking so sad and forlorn about?"
`e said, "Jim, `ave you and your band ever been subject to song censorship?"
I said , "Only once. A club in West London asked us not to sing anything agricultural, you know, goosing and gandering. No big deal. Why?"
`e said, "Well, it all kicked off at the club last night. We `ad a Come All Ye and this bloke came in and sang, " Keep Yer `and on Yer Little Ball of Yarn." Well, `er indoors, who`s just signed up to MeToo took objection to the inferences and told `im to sling `is hook and don`t come back. At this the rest of the people sided with the singer and they cleared off too. This all `appened before the collection and now I owe the landlord twenty quid!!"


Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,OP
Date: 07 May 18 - 04:21 PM

To DtG
I wanted to sing folk songs in a folk club - I wasn't suggesting heavy metal!


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 18 - 04:56 PM

Guest OP: Maybe the difference is that JT's material has been accused of sexism and misogyny, while 'Maids when you're young' is a relatively rare example in folk song of the woman gaining the upper hand, rather than the complaint being anything to do with graphic imagery and reference to bodily functions? Just a thought as to why the organiser might approve of the one but not the other...


Quoting guest OP:
'There are two things that gall me here:
1) the organiser had encouraged me previously to sing "Maids when you're young", which contains some fairly graphic imagery, and 2) my perception is that a lot of folk songs involve bodily functions of various sorts! The whole thing seemed rather irrational.'


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 18 - 11:55 PM

graphic....?

you got to be kidding..

I always think those maids when you're young...cuckoo's nest type songs are twee beyond redemption, fit only for young ladies in Laura Ashley dresses and Doc Marten boots.

one bit of the tradition that can die out as soon as it likes, as far as I'm concerned.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 18 - 03:27 AM

I wanted to sing folk songs in a folk club - I wasn't suggesting heavy metal!

My point well missed :-) The heavy metal reference was merely an illustration of why it is to do with personal taste rather than censorship.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,OP
Date: 08 May 18 - 04:00 AM

To DtG
I didn't miss the point - just following the analogy if you like. But should the personal taste of the organiser's wife be a final determinant of what is performed? Seems a bit arbitrary to me!


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 18 - 04:28 AM

But should the personal taste of the organiser's wife be a final determinant of what is performed?

Of course it should. The organiser, and by close ties, his wife, have the final say in what goes on at their club. I don't like it any more than you do but it is their club. In the end they will either stand or fail by their decisions.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Andy7
Date: 08 May 18 - 04:50 AM

If I ran a club, I'd only allow people to perform my own compositions. ;-)


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 18 - 05:21 AM

if i ran a public toilet, i wouldn't let anyone have a shit who didn't wash their hands afterwards.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 08 May 18 - 05:26 AM

... and spread germs to the taps? Wonderful.

Personally, I'd ban all songs that begin 'one morning in ...'.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 May 18 - 05:46 AM

if i ran a public toilet, i wouldn't let anyone have a shit who didn't wash their hands afterwards.
Surely by the time you know, it's too late!


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 May 18 - 05:47 AM

Tut, Modette, that's being "time-ist". :-)

You could have, for example, "One morning in Sidney..."

I'm sure Sidney wouldn't mind.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 08 May 18 - 07:31 AM

If I ran a club, I'd only allow people to perform my own compositions.

If you're Dougie Maclean you already did.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 08 May 18 - 07:54 AM

Would you care to expand on that, Jack ? I don't recall Dougie running any club, and certainly not under the restriction you are alleging. Did I miss something ?


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 08 May 18 - 12:00 PM

He used to run a café on the Mound in Edinburgh which played pretty much nothing but Dougie Maclean on the sound system.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 18 - 12:13 PM

Nigel Parsons ...its very easy to mock decent folk, but some of us have standards.

There would be no inappropriate shitting on my watch, as I need it to tell the time.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 08 May 18 - 12:37 PM

"He used to run a café on the Mound in Edinburgh which played pretty much nothing but Dougie Maclean on the sound system."
So he did. Playing your own music "on a sound system" in your own business premises hardly equates to the "censorship" which the OP started this discussion about, does it ?


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery
Date: 10 May 18 - 10:54 AM

Not Quite the same Thing,... But as the organiser of a Band playing for Barn Dances, I have been asked on several occasions to provide Music and Dances "suitable for a Christian audience"... I,m not sure exactly what they expect from us, Sacrificing a few virgins, or disembowelling a goat during the proceedings !!.
I informed one prospective booker that we do not discriminate, and provide entertainment suitable for all Faiths and none, and almost immediately received an Email to the effect that they had booked a "Proper Christian Band" and would not require our services !!!


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 18 - 11:25 AM

Also not quite the same
In the 1950s the BBC embarked on a collecting campaign recording songs and music throughout the British Isles
They recorded a song from Mohill singer, Thomas Moran, concerning the assassination of William Sidney Clements, Third Earl of Leitrim in 1878
Lordd Leitrim was one of the worst landlords of 19th century Ireland, reputed to have exercised the Medieval right of Droit du seigneur - "breaking-in" the brides of his tenants on their wedding night.
The notes to the song in the Beeb catalogue describe it as scurrilous and defamatory - they gave it an "S" number to indicate that it could only be played with special written permission
As far as I know, there is only one other folksong with this number
It transpires from an article I am reading by D K Wilgus and Eleanor Long that there are around two dozen other songs on the same subject
The Beeb "don't like it up 'em" - or maybe that do, but believe it's not for the likes of us.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 May 18 - 12:23 PM

Well Jim, that is a serious accusation to make against someone, even a dead someone. And a quick search turns up this:

"According to his biographer Fiona Slevin, Lord Leitrim was accused by some of "repeatedly [violating] young girls and [claiming] droit de seigneur ... some of his peers repeated accusations of his 'immorality towards daughters of tenants' in the House of Commons and named him 'the bad earl'." However, Slevin also quotes a journalist who investigated Lord Leitrim's assassination as claiming, "'even among those who hold the strongest views upon Lord Leitrim's conduct as a landlord, the charge (of debauchery) is discredited and I did not meet a single person who regarded it as tenable.'" In Slevin's words, "the final straw that motivated the individuals involved" in Lord Leitrim's assassination was his alleged rape of the daughter of one of his assassins."

So a song making that accusation, widely regarded as discredited, maybe ought to be restricted in some way.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 18 - 01:37 PM

Leitrim's activities are widely documented way beyond the twenty-odd songs and local records David
His name is connected with the drowning of you young Fanad woman who was said to have been seduced by him.
THis, from a small book entitles, 'The Third Earl of Leitrim' by local historian, Liam Dolan (1978), based largely on contemporary accounts.

"There is conflicting evidence about Lord Leitrim’s behaviour in the area of sexual morality. David Thomson says that, although he was not married, he was fond of women. While Patrick Shiels stated that “it was not on account of his licentious life that Lord Leitrim was assassinated.”
Shane Leslie stated that “Leitrim was the last who was deeply suspected of using droit de seigneur and taking maidenhood instead of rent... I heard an Irish Bishop without hesitation refer to Lord Leitrim as the last landlord who took the daughter’s honour, if he could, before he allowed her marriage or accepted the father’s rent.”
It was reported in the Londonderry Journal that Miss M. Mullen* of Portnablagh said that “he would give some of the tenants nice cottages inside the domain and then take their daughters into his house and bring them to shame”.
Patrick Shiels related another story about a girl, who, it is said, Lord Leitrim desired.
There was a beautiful girl in Glinsk, named Morrow, a Protestant, eighteen years of age. Lord Leitrim wanted her on his staff. Her father and mother would not give her, so they were evicted and went to America. My father made the clothes for them when they were going. The girl’s mother told my father why they were evicted.
Shane Leslie told a story he heard about a girl who had come into contact with Lord Leitrim but with a more unfortunate result:—
In 19471 met an old R.I.C. pensioner; Sergeant Connolly, at Middletown in Co. Armagh. He spoke as one who had been posted to Milford soon after the famous murder. . . Connolly's story was that Lord Leitrim had asked an honest baker to send his daughter to do domestic service at the Castle, or else he would refuse to renew his lease. The parents suspecting the service required, angrily rejected the proposal, but the heroic daughter was determined to save her parents from eviction, and took the matter into her own hands. She was convinced she could save her honour, but what happened was never revealed. On a Monday she went to the Castle and on Saturday she drowned herself in a lake.
In 1892, Dr. J. Osborne refuted all allegations of licentious behaviour by Lord Leitrim in the Londonderry Sentinal:
On the contrary I have often heard that he was particularly careful of young women taken into his service… I cannot believe the imputation on his moral character.
Margaret Hay, Lord Leitrim’s housekeeper also denied such charges in a letter to the papers soon after his death. (36)
While the Hon. Strutt says:
I think what probably happened was that when a girl got into trouble the problem for herself and her family was to salvage what they could of the family honour. Thus a lie would have been circulated that she        had been
sent for by William and allowed to go to him in order to avoid the        risk of eviction.
This particular area of Lord Leitrim’s life is at best cloudy as he has his defenders as well as his accusers, and will remain so unless some new evidence is forthcoming."

The British establishment was fanatical about protecting the reputations of the Anglo gentry, especially so close on the heels of the Famine, so you can bet that if his peers described him as a "Bad Earl", something in the state of Leitrimland was pretty rotten

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 18 - 02:52 PM

Fortunately as a general precept in law throughout the UK "hearsay" is not regarded as evidence. What Jim Carroll presents above as being widely documented is all hearsay.

This particular area of Lord Leitrim’s life is at best cloudy as he has his defenders as well as his accusers, and will remain so unless some new evidence is forthcoming.

That would appear to sum it up.

Never heard of any of the songs perhaps Jim Carroll could put them up.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 18 - 03:15 PM

"What Jim Carroll presents above as being widely documented is all hearsay."
I don't want to make an issue of this but it is researched history from documented sources
That 19th century historians should publish details such as this about a British Lord is out of the question, so whoever wishes to examine the subjects is left with contemporary accounts - in this case, clergymen, newspapers, family histories, parish and court records... and in this case, descriptions of the man by his peers
Afer several decades of recording local history from oral sources, I have been left with the impression that is as reliable as the public persona prejected by establishment sources
A friend has been doing similar work of the song, Fanny Blair, with some startling results.
I confess I am at a loss to understand why anybody would wish to defend one of a group of people who helped virtually depopulate a country in order to sieze their land
This was the period of Irish history which led to decades of Land Wars (also fairly reliably recorded in songs and tales)
One of the stunning things I discovered in my researches into songs is that, up to the 150th anniversary of the Irish Famine - the most catastrophic event in this country's history, there was only one bood dedicated to the subject - written by an Englishwoman!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 May 18 - 03:21 PM

Fiona Slevin was writing in 2006, so would have been well aware of Liam Dolan's work, plus other more recent evidence. So sure, there are contradictory statements, but no clear case for the accusations made by the earlier sources whom Jim quotes. What I do not know of course is whether the song marked as scurrilous and defamatory by the BBC really does repeat those unproven, and indeed scurrilous and defamatory if they are false, accusations.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: meself
Date: 10 May 18 - 03:32 PM

No views or opinions on the Earl, one way or the other - but from anything I've read - admittedly, not a great deal on the subject - the 'droit de seigneur' seems to be a fiction - no?


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 May 18 - 04:58 PM

Can we have less about Lord L?


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 11 May 18 - 01:51 AM

Can we have less about Lord L?

Definitely Dick, seems the BBC thought the same thing at the time.

But as a parting correction on the matter I would draw the attention of GUEST 10 May 18 - 02:52 PM to this part of Jim Carroll's narrative:

Margaret Hay, Lord Leitrim’s housekeeper also denied such charges in a letter to the papers soon after his death. (36)

Now that IS hard evidence. It is a written witness statement. All the other information is opinion and hearsay.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 18 - 03:34 AM

Can we clear on thing up about this before it dominates this thread - which I have no intention of being part of.
I don't know the facts of this - nobody does, but I do know that our folk songs, particularly Irish and Scots ones, carry a mass of information that is excluded from our history books because of who made them and why they were made
My argument has always been that "If you want to know the details of The Napoleonic Wars you go to the history books and official records, if you want to know of the experiences and the feelings of those who actually did the fignting, you need to go to the songs and the very few contemporary statements of those who fought"
Pat and I have done a great deal of research on locally made song, those often made during the lives of the singers we recorded - there are literally hundreds of songs similar to Lord Leitrim - largely ignored by the anthologists
One old singer told us a couple of years ago "If a man farted in church, somebody made a song about it"
The information contained in these songs is not necessarily accurate, nut it is an indication that the events probably took place
Quite often, the events have never been documented, but have been carried in the memories of the people they happened to and passed on - they are a vital, but much neglected part of hour history
Leitrim was a vicious landlord, one of the worst - that seems to be an accepted fact - but he wan't on his own
This is a period shortly after a million people died of starvation despite the fact that there was enough food locked in warehouses to feed four times the population of Ireland (a documented fact)
If farmers whose crops failed could not pay their rent to the (largely absentee) landlords, they were turned out onto the roads and their homed were "tumbled" ((reduced to rubble) so they could not return
Many dug holes in the ground and survived from eating the few wild plants growing in the fields
Skipping the rent by allowing the landlord to shag your daughter is not illogical by any means
Most of the events of this country were not documented - if you were a ruking power, would you preserve such evidence of your nobility's behaviour?
Similar behaviour was taking place throughout the Empire - India, Africa; even within Britain itself, in Scotland and Wales
I have to say that I find myself somewhat amused that people who obviously hadn't come across Leitrim or his songs shold, knee-jerk fashion, leap to his defence without knowing a single thing about him.
I'm happy to discuss these songs and their historical reliability and significance with anybody and at any time - the subject has become an absorbing one with me - but not on a thread that's still alive
You want to take this further - open a thread and let those who wish to continue with this equally interesting subject do so
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 18 - 03:47 AM

A PARTING SHOT
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,Mark Bluemel
Date: 11 May 18 - 04:26 AM

Could I suggest that as a discussion of Lord L now takes up 20% of this thread, it could be moved to a separate thread?


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 18 - 04:49 AM

Interesting that only one poster had thought worth commenting on the fact that the OP's club required singers to submit their intended repertoirs in advance. Is this how most clubs operate now?


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 18 - 05:04 AM

If people thought it worthwhile I'd be more the happy with that Mark, though I would suggest it could bee on the reliability of historical songs rather than on just this one
It was never my intention of making it an issue - I appologise that it has become one
Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 11 May 18 - 09:30 AM

To answer GUEST 11 May 18 - 04:49AM

I have never ever heard of a folk club requiring singers to submit a list of the songs they intend to sing. Mind you in some cases I think such a policy would have some benefit. For instance it would stop people turning up to same the same bloody song week after week. It would also stop people mumping about so-and-so singing some rendition of a song said "mumper" considers to be his/her own. It would encourage the singing from sheets, tablets and smart phones as those who do so could submit their repertoires in hard copy or by e-mail to the organiser beforehand.

One observation of a historical note:

"I do know that our folk songs, particularly Irish and Scots ones, carry a mass of information that is excluded from our history books because of who made them and why they were made
My argument has always been that "If you want to know the details of The Napoleonic Wars you go to the history books and official records, if you want to know of the experiences and the feelings of those who actually did the fighting, you need to go to the songs and the very few contemporary statements of those who fought"


The Napoleonic Wars is a very poor example to illustrate the point the author of the above is trying to make. More was written about that particular stramash than any other war up to that point by soldiers, officers, Generals, politicians and scholars. Highly recommended is the Memoirs of Rifleman Costello.

Also be highly sceptical of anyone attemppting to introduce things as fact and basing any "history" on things that relate to events that are qualified by the words "likely", "not necessarily accurate", and "probably". Instances described as such are opinion NOT fact.

I think Jim Carroll's suggestion of a separate thread on the reliability of historical songs is a good one but probably too contentious for above the line.


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 18 - 09:48 AM

If we can't discuss the political implications of siongs in the music section we may as well all fold our tents and piss off to the next oasis
I'm a bit fed up with people creating no-go areas
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 May 18 - 12:27 PM

Schlongs in music...?

its a promising subject for a song.

Lord Leitrim
Rhymes with quim
The case against him
Seems quite grim
Numerous maidens did he roger
With his nasty loyalist todger.
Had he fought by Pearse's side
Would Jim be saying we all lied?


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 18 - 12:56 PM

Wasn't a great fan of Pearse Al
Can you find something that rhymes with "Connolly"
More up my bohreen
Otherwise I'd give it thwo but I wouldn't buy it
Jim


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Subject: RE: Censorship-songs of certain folk singers?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 18 - 01:36 PM

There is anecdotal `evidence' I have heard of `censorship' that was based on sensible motives. Well back in time, a club in Yorkshire is said to have censored (or perhaps more accurately `rationed') some songs, such as `Streets of London'. This was because so many floor singers would do these songs, otherwise. So the organiser would ration them, and offer floor singers a spot some time in the future, when it would be their turn to sing one of these songs.


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