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BS: London is a war zone!

Dave the Gnome 06 May 18 - 03:33 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 May 18 - 04:18 AM
Thompson 06 May 18 - 05:09 AM
DMcG 06 May 18 - 05:13 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 May 18 - 05:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 May 18 - 06:17 AM
Backwoodsman 06 May 18 - 06:27 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 May 18 - 08:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 May 18 - 09:06 AM
punkfolkrocker 06 May 18 - 10:00 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 May 18 - 10:44 AM
Stilly River Sage 06 May 18 - 12:01 PM
Jim Carroll 06 May 18 - 12:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 May 18 - 01:40 PM
Senoufou 06 May 18 - 02:25 PM
Iains 06 May 18 - 02:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 May 18 - 02:51 PM
Iains 06 May 18 - 02:54 PM
Senoufou 06 May 18 - 02:54 PM
meself 06 May 18 - 03:48 PM
Backwoodsman 06 May 18 - 04:00 PM
Iains 06 May 18 - 04:03 PM
Senoufou 06 May 18 - 04:05 PM
Jim Carroll 06 May 18 - 08:26 PM
Jim Carroll 06 May 18 - 08:33 PM
Rapparee 06 May 18 - 09:06 PM
Senoufou 07 May 18 - 03:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 May 18 - 04:15 AM
Iains 07 May 18 - 04:23 AM
Senoufou 07 May 18 - 04:28 AM
Backwoodsman 07 May 18 - 06:12 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 18 - 06:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 May 18 - 06:41 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 07 May 18 - 07:03 AM
Iains 07 May 18 - 07:16 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 18 - 07:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 18 - 07:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 May 18 - 07:50 AM
Senoufou 07 May 18 - 07:53 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 07 May 18 - 08:01 AM
Backwoodsman 07 May 18 - 08:07 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 07 May 18 - 09:10 AM
Backwoodsman 07 May 18 - 09:31 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 07 May 18 - 09:51 AM
Backwoodsman 07 May 18 - 10:01 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 18 - 10:05 AM
Steve Shaw 07 May 18 - 10:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 May 18 - 10:22 AM
SPB-Cooperator 07 May 18 - 10:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 May 18 - 10:51 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 07 May 18 - 11:15 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 18 - 11:31 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 18 - 11:31 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 07 May 18 - 11:47 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 18 - 12:10 PM
Jim Carroll 07 May 18 - 12:12 PM
SPB-Cooperator 07 May 18 - 12:17 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 07 May 18 - 12:18 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 07 May 18 - 12:22 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 May 18 - 12:23 PM
beardedbruce 07 May 18 - 01:16 PM
beardedbruce 07 May 18 - 01:21 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 07 May 18 - 01:29 PM
Jim Carroll 07 May 18 - 01:33 PM
Jim Carroll 07 May 18 - 01:36 PM
Senoufou 07 May 18 - 01:51 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 07 May 18 - 02:32 PM
Jim Carroll 07 May 18 - 02:55 PM
Iains 07 May 18 - 03:11 PM
Iains 07 May 18 - 05:02 PM
Jim Carroll 07 May 18 - 08:16 PM
Jim Carroll 07 May 18 - 08:19 PM
Backwoodsman 07 May 18 - 11:31 PM
punkfolkrocker 07 May 18 - 11:57 PM
Big Al Whittle 08 May 18 - 12:09 AM
Backwoodsman 08 May 18 - 12:23 AM
Backwoodsman 08 May 18 - 12:41 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 18 - 03:04 AM
SPB-Cooperator 08 May 18 - 03:38 AM
Backwoodsman 08 May 18 - 03:41 AM
Iains 08 May 18 - 03:42 AM
Backwoodsman 08 May 18 - 04:17 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 18 - 04:23 AM
Iains 08 May 18 - 04:30 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 18 - 04:47 AM
Iains 08 May 18 - 04:53 AM
Mr Red 08 May 18 - 05:02 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 May 18 - 05:36 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 18 - 05:44 AM
Backwoodsman 08 May 18 - 06:55 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 May 18 - 07:12 AM
Backwoodsman 08 May 18 - 07:27 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 May 18 - 07:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 18 - 07:52 AM
Backwoodsman 08 May 18 - 07:55 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 08 May 18 - 08:06 AM
Senoufou 08 May 18 - 08:17 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 18 - 08:32 AM
Senoufou 08 May 18 - 08:45 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 18 - 09:25 AM
Joe Offer 08 May 18 - 03:58 PM
Big Al Whittle 08 May 18 - 05:58 PM
Jim Carroll 08 May 18 - 06:44 PM
Jim Carroll 08 May 18 - 06:46 PM
Steve Shaw 08 May 18 - 07:24 PM
Joe Offer 09 May 18 - 12:49 AM

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Subject: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 18 - 03:33 AM

President Twittler, in a speech to the NRA, has suggested that tough gun controls have created a situation where knife crime causes more damage than gun crime

BBC article

The implication is that arming the UK with guns would lessen knife crime. I don't think that I need to point out to the intelligencia of Mudcat the absurd logic of this. Just send my considerations to our American friends on having such a dipstick for a leader. We had Farage but him and his party have been all but wiped out now. I wish for a similar and speedy resolution to your current problems as well.

Good luck

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 18 - 04:18 AM

What the fuck has Nigel bleeding Farage to do with the price of eggs?
He was leader of a tiny single issue party, not the big cheese like Trump...

I think its a great idea to arm all Londoners with free automatic rifles, free ammo and a hand grenade belt.

If that doesn't make property in the capital more affordable, nothing will.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Thompson
Date: 06 May 18 - 05:09 AM

Ah, America, thank you so much for electing your president. Every morning I wake up to another fabulous comedy routine.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 18 - 05:13 AM

And coming from a man who has less experience of war zones than many Americans of his age and younger...


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 18 - 05:17 AM

If we all had guns I don't imagine he'd be too keen about coming here in July and parading himself in front of crowds of Londoners...


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 18 - 06:17 AM

Twittler and Toad of Europe Hall have a lot in common, Al. Both pander to the worst in people, both use alt truth as a weapon and both are rich boys pretending to be friends with the common man. My point was that we have managed to get rid of one and hopefully America will follow suit.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 May 18 - 06:27 AM

Amen, Dave. Trump and Haddock-Face are both owned by the immensely-wealthy corporations, groups, and individuals who give them their instructions. They pander to ordinary people's' prejudices and grievances in order to garner their support, but they serve only the interests of the wealthy.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 18 - 08:51 AM

wouldn't count on it - most presidents seem to get a second term


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 18 - 09:06 AM

I'll take a tenner on that now if you like, Al. Payable to my favourite charity if he doesn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 18 - 10:00 AM

Guns.. knives...

What we need is an NRA equivalent promoting English Long Bow ownership...!!!!!

That'd teach muggers, teenage hoodlums, and foreign looking chappies not to get too close,
if they knew we were all trained to use and packing loaded Long Bows
when we nip out to the shops and tea rooms...


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 18 - 10:44 AM

er...what is your favourite charity?

never underestimate the public's stupidity. going on the latest adulation for bringing kim bongboo to heal. i'd say my money was safe.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 May 18 - 12:01 PM

Every morning I wake up to another fabulous comedy routine.

From this side of the pond it's Groundhog Day getting worse every day. Not. Funny.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 18 - 12:25 PM

Some years ago Ireland was abuzz with discussion on rural crime when a farmer, finding a Traveller trespassing on his property, executed him - he wounded him with a shotgun, beat him around the head with a fence-pole as he lay on the ground, then went into the house, reloaded his shotgun and administered the coup de grâce, killing him.
Despite the fact that there was no question of his having done this, he was found not guilty and freed
Shortly after this, an Irish American journalist, Mary Ellen Synon, then living in Kerry, was interviewed on Kerry Radio about America's gun laws.
She said that it was the duty of all rural dwellers to own and be prepared to use a gun.
Synon had made her name earlier by describing the Sydney Paralympics as "grotesque".
Her statement, "Surely physical competition is about finding the best - the fastest, strongest, highest, all that. It is not about finding someone who can wobble his way around a track in a wheelchair, or who can swim from one end of a pool to the other by Braille."
Yet we are supposed to imagine that there is some kind of equivalence in value between what the cripples do and what the truly fastest, strongest, highest do. There isn't", lost her her job as a regular contributor to The Irish Times, and several other lucrative appointments.
perverse".
it was revealed later that she was nicknamed "the Bonk of England" by tabloid newspapers in 1995 after she disclosed that she and Rupert Pennant-Rea had had sex on the governor's dressing room floor at the Bank.
Wonder if she ever 'met' Donald Trump !!
People who advocate the ownership and use of guns seem to have come out of a certain mold
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 18 - 01:40 PM

Current!y Age UK but it may have changed when Twitler gets booted out. If you are up for it, I will let you know then. If he does get back in, let me know what yours is.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 May 18 - 02:25 PM

Jim, your post reminds me of the case of Norfolk farmer Tony Martin, who shot dead a trespassing thief whom he found on his property. I believe it was a pair of travellers. (The other one wasn't shot) and they'd been trying to burgle him for ages. He was rather eccentric and lived all alone in a remote and isolated place.
Martin was jailed, but after three years his sentence was reduced and he was freed.

There was outrage on Martin's behalf, as there is now regarding a traveller knifed to death recently in a similar case where an elderly man and his wife who suffers from dementia were burgled and during a scuffle the traveller was killed. The elderly man was arrested, but later released.

I have mixed feelings about killing (either by shooting or knifing) a burglar. Obviously the miscreant shouldn't be in one's house in the first place stealing. And one shouldn't be expected to offer the chap a nice cup of tea and a slice of cake. Also, one would be terrified (I know I would!) and might attack in fear/self-defence. But anyone, burglar or not, losing their life is tragic. I can't bring myself to rejoice and say "Ha ha, Serves them right!" They are somebody's son/partner/dad after all.
I bet I'm alone in this over-sympathetic viewpoint (I always was a bit 'sorft' as they say in Norfolk)


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 18 - 02:44 PM

If they break into your house, they leave their rights at the front door. Once we deported people for stealing a loaf of bread. Now we are more enlightened - Perhaps too enlightened. Crime needs to be punished.
A slap on the wrist in a magistrates court is no deterrent. If you break into an old persons house in the middle of the night and they wake up they will be terrified. The instinct is flight or fight, with whatever comes to hand. If the outcome has lethal consequences for the house invader they have only themselves to blame.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 18 - 02:51 PM

It's the criminal scum who then threaten retaliation against the self defending victims of injured and dead thieves..
that send my views on law and order veering further right than Judge Jeffreys...!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 18 - 02:54 PM

PFR I totally agree with your sentiments.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 May 18 - 02:54 PM

I understand Iains. My husband agrees with you. When he was young he was a night security guard in the port of Abidjan, and bears scars where he was attacked by a thief with a knife. He has no sympathy with invading robbers, and says they're dangerous and deserve all they get.
He says too that if a thief entered out house he'd personally 'attend to him' (I reckon he means it'd be curtains for the guy!)


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: meself
Date: 06 May 18 - 03:48 PM

If Jim's account of the event in Ireland is accurate, it's so far removed from these cases of someone breaking into an old person's house that I really wonder why you're talking about them.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 May 18 - 04:00 PM

The difference between Tony Martin's case, and the case of the pensioner who disarmed his armed assailant and used the weapon on the assailant was, IIRC, that Tony Martin shot his victim in the back as he (the victim) was running away, ostensibly in an act of revenge, whereas the pensioner in the recent case was actually fighting for his life in hand-to-hand combat.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 18 - 04:03 PM

The common thread is travellers. Jim has a "rapport" with them shared by few others. As a group they contain a very visible minority with no respect for the law or for others property.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 May 18 - 04:05 PM

Well meself, I did think we were talking about guns being preferable to knives, and about self-defence in London (or UK) and the US.
But if it makes you wonder why I'm talking about them, I'll desist immediately.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 18 - 08:26 PM

"As a group they contain a very visible minority with no respect for the law or for others property."
Stereotyping racism again Iains
I spent over thity years recording them and befriending them - what experience have you had, apart from reading about their being evicted?
You have an exact description of what happened to John Ward - perhaps you might clamber offer your wall of prejudice to comment on it
Hatre like yours sent six million Jews to their deaths and is now leading to dead refugee children being carried from the sae while their parents are being shipped back to war zones in conflicts we either helped to start or facilitated by selling arms
What kind of humans are you people   - beyond me, I'm afraid
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 18 - 08:33 PM

Perhaps you'd like to add your support to this opinion offered by a Midlands J.P. during the making of 'The Travelling People Radio Ballad
Jim Carroll

While collecting information for the above Radio-Ballad, producer Charles Parker interviewed Alderman Harry Watton, J.P., of Birmingham:
Watton: "How far does it come in your mind before you say: 'I have done everything I possibly can ... and I will help the broad mass of these people, but there are some I can do nothing with whatsoever.'
Then doesn't the time arise in one's mind when one has to say: 'All right, one has to exterminate the impossibles ...'"
Parker: "Exterminate - that's a terrible word. Surely you don't ... mean that ...? "
Watton: "Why not?"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 May 18 - 09:06 PM

I have just completed an 8+ hour course required for an "enhanced" permit to carry a concealed weapon (not necessarily a firearm -- hell, it could be an assegai or a claymore if those would be concealed, a dirk or set of brass knuckles. (NB: I don't carry a weapon, concealed or otherwise as I think doing so is silly.) But being a gun owner (target shooting) I want to be "up" on the latest laws, safety recommendations, etc.

Part of the class -- most of it, in fact -- was on the laws regarding firearms (I didn't ask about a concealed bearded axe). In all states of the US, you cannot:

*shoot a fleeing person.
*shoot someone "on suspicion.
*wave a weapon around with intent to intimidate.
*carry a weapon into a Federal building, courthouse, school, and in some States, bars and churches.

You must defending your life (not your property) or the life of another. The danger to life must be imminent and immediate.

It is strongly, very strongly, suggested that if you are going to carry a concealed weapon that you get insurance to cover your legal costs, because you're going to be sued. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Of course, the news outlets have as a policy "If it bleeds, it leads." I make no apologies for criminals. I would defend my home, myself, and my family as best I could against an attacker or home invader. I would probably, however, use my bare hands or some type of club/nightstick/billy instead of a gun or knife (bloodstains are sooooo difficult to remove from the carpet) and bullets go through walls and even the neighbor's walls. But then, I have had more than a little training in the use of batons as weapons (and I taught hand-to-hand combat).

I check the news every morning to see how the president has embarrassed me and the country overnight.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 May 18 - 03:52 AM

That's most interesting Rap. It seems physical 'self-defence' is the only acceptable reason to attack a miscreant with a weapon.

Of course, if one keeps any sort of weapon handy in the house, there's a danger that the invader might seize it out of one's hand and use it.

I have always tried to avoid stereotyping as it leads to racism, and all sorts of other 'isms'. And generalisations can never be accurate.
Every human being on the planet is an individual.

And to me, human life is sacred, even that of a burglar. Having a life snuffed out is a tragedy. (That's why I'm in two minds about abortion (see another thread) from my own point of view, but I accept that each woman as an individual has the right to choose)

Any burglar in our house would be rather disappointed, as we have no valuables and don't keep any cash on the premises. I expect I might offer the chap a nice cup of tea to cheer him up.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 04:15 AM

Would that be before or after hubby beat the **** out of him? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 18 - 04:23 AM

Jim my post above can easily be verified. Get off your high horse and deal with it. Would you like a list of further crimes by travellers?

Below are a couple of items to be frothing along with!
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/rathkeale-a-small-irish-town-swollen-by-the-proceeds-of-crime-a6904141.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5580085/Ministers-unveil-plans-new-clampdown-illegal-travellers.html

Since when has it been racist to despise criminals? Do you make up your own meanings of words as you go along?


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 May 18 - 04:28 AM

Hee hee Dave. Well, while I was waiting for the kettle to boil I could try to calm them down by asking them both which football team they supported. No doubt they'd subside into a (boring) conversation about ManU, Chelsea or some such. Then a cuppa and the cake tin and we'd all be best pals. Once the Police arrived they could have some too...


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 18 - 06:12 AM

Sen, I'm coming to burgle your house tonight. Make sure your hubby is chained up somewhere safe, have plenty of cake in the tin (I love Victoria Sponge or Lavender & Apricot Cake), and PLEASE...loose-leaf tea (no nasty bags!)! See you about 2am! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 06:29 AM

"Jim my post above can easily be verified."
Read them all Iains - and dozens more - they prove exactly nothing
Your attitude is racist stereotyping based in the behaviour of individual cases - it is part of an already well underway process of ethnically cleansing an entire social group - denigrate them, cast them out of society, deprive them of the basic standards of living, electricity, water, sanitation, education - even the right to stop anywhere - and then point at them and show what animals they are - unfit to live
All standard stuff that sent half a million of them to Hitlers extermination camps along with Jews, Trades unionists - all the others unfit to live in "decent" society
Your bigotry is sick - it destroys people and is leading to their disappearance as a cultural group
I can't prevent your ignorant, inhuman attitude towards a severely deprivesd group of people, but I can request that you don't use this forum as a platform for your race-hatred
I knew many hundreds of these people - as singers who were willing to share their songs and allow me to record their lives and as personal friends - none of them came anywhere near your sickening description of them
If you can't suppress your inhumanity (these are human beings we are discussing) be good enough to keep it to yourself
You are behaving like one of Keith's sick set
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 06:41 AM

It is a tough one, Jim. If the statistics show that a particular group of people are over represented in any crime statistics it is difficult to deny it. However, like the Asian grooming scandals, what we should be asking is why there is such an over representation. We know it is not beciase certain groups of people are inherently bad and I am of the firm belief that most people are inherently good so we need to look for other reasons. I suspect that there are a host of other reasons rather than a single one and they include circumstance, targeting of ethnic groups and bad press. It is those issues and many others we should be addressing and if the current crime statistics highlight a particular issue in any area we should welcome it as an opportunity to improve someones lot rather than demonising a whole swathe of people.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 07 May 18 - 07:03 AM

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Iains - PM
Date: 06 May 18 - 04:03 PM

The common thread is travellers. Jim has a "rapport" with them shared by few others. As a group they contain a very visible minority with no respect for the law or for others property.

Iains has stated his Point of view clearly

Where in that statement does it give YOU the excuse to accuse him as follows "Your attitude is racist stereotyping based in the behaviour of individual cases - it is part of an already well underway process of ethnically cleansing an entire social group - denigrate them, cast them out of society, deprive them of the basic standards of living, electricity, water, sanitation, education - even the right to stop anywhere - and then point at them and show what animals they are - unfit to live"

Your Illogical personal attacks are another example of ranting for the sake of ranting
Bringing Keith into the thread where he has not posted is another example of personal attacks

Everone on this forum is entitled to express their point of view and the statement of "If you can't suppress your inhumanity (these are human beings we are discussing) be good enough to keep it to yourself"
is denying them the right to post based on their experience and reading material.

I look forward to your next round of personal attacks based again on things which poster have not posted


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 18 - 07:16 AM

Well Jimmy those travellers you insist on supporting here are a few facts.
Suicide rate six times higher than the general population.(12% of all traveller deaths)
The highest infant mortality rate among any community(3.5 times normal)
The lowest educational achievement
The highest unemployment rate (84%)
only 13 per cent of Traveller children complete second-level education compared to 92 per cent in the settled community.
Travellers make up 0.6 per cent of the population yet account for 10 per cent of the male prisoner population and 22 per cent of the female prison population.
Almost 10 per cent of the people under probation supervision are Travellers,
Traveller males have a lifeexpectancy 15 years shorter than settled males, II years for traveller women.
Travellers with mental and physical health problems three times higher that the general population

If insisting on living in a caravan achieves the statistics above then I would suggest that perhaps travellers need to try living in houses like other people, stop bleating they are misunderstood and discriminated against and leave their anachronistic lifestyle behind. The statistics suggest that insisting on retaining a nomadic lifestyle will eventually exterminate them.

If I kept my children away from education I would be prosecuted, for travellers it is ignored. Why is that?

Perhaps the local authorities should take the children into care to guarantee them the health and educational resources that are devoted to the rest of the general population, or do the "uman rights" of travellers over ride concerns for the child?
    Does care automatically become labelled racist in such a situation, or is it simply a cop out by dis-interested councils afraid to grasp the nettle?


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 07:23 AM

I regard Ian's attack on friends as a personal attack - it is certainly racist stereotyping and is certainly an attitude that is leading to ethnic cleansing
If he - or yo - disagree with this you are entitled to disagree with it - hopefully with contrary facts
One thing I have noticed about Iain's contributions to this forum (apart from his persistent deisplays of lack of humanity - uneployed people whjo sponge off the state, fire victims who should sleep in the park rather than trespass on empty private property (not an actual statement but the logical conclusion of his arguments)
This particular argument arose from my description of a Traveller being executed for trespassing - Ian's response appears to be that he got what he deserved for being what he was
Is that what passes for humanity and decency with you people?
Of course everybody is entitled to their opinions, but on a public forum they are obliged to put them in a way as not to damage and destroy the lives of others - if they don't, this form becomes a platform for bigotry hand hatred - we already have enough of that without throwing the Travelling community into the mix
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 18 - 07:23 AM

BBC today,
"Gun violence on London's streets 'must stop'"

"Southwark Borough Commander, Simon Messinger, said the violence had "rightly caused concern" and the "fast-paced" investigation was "progressing all the time".
He said additional officers would be on patrol for the rest of the weekend, supported by armed response officers on motorcycles, dog units and air support.
London Mayor Sadiq Khan said he refused to accept that nothing can be done to stem the "appalling rise of violent crime" "

"Labour MP David Lammy tweeted: "Enough. Enough. My heart goes out to families grieving children and teenagers. So many shattered lives, families and communities.""

"Official statistics released in April showed the number of homicides in London had surged by 44% in the last year.
The number rose from 109 to 157 - eight of which were a result of the terror attacks at Westminster Bridge, London Bridge and Finsbury Park."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44026796


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 07:50 AM

It is difficult to argue with statistics, Iains. It is what you do with them that matters. Do you believe the dire picture they paint is because travelers are less human that you or I or is it because society is letting them down? I know what my choice would be and I hope yours is the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 May 18 - 07:53 AM

I can easily appreciate your point of view Jim. I got to know loads of serial burglars when I Prison Visited, and actually got quite fond of them. They each had a distinct personality, life-story and hopes/dreams. I would have been devastated if any one of them were killed while burgling. One could class them as 'criminals' or 'wasters' but they became 'people' to me.
But I can also understand the reactions of their (numerous) victims, losing hard-earned property and being terrified in their own homes.

Backwoodsman, husband has promised to behave himself regarding your imminent visit. But the current home-made cake on offer in the large tin is a coffee/walnut one. Hope that's acceptable? :)


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 07 May 18 - 08:01 AM

Jim
"I regard Ian's attack on friends as a personal attack - it is certainly racist stereotyping and is certainly an attitude that is leading to ethnic cleansing"

I regard Mudcatters as my friends .
Draw your own conclusions to that statement
After a' we are a' Jock Tamsons bairns


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 18 - 08:07 AM

Ah, coffee & walnut is my third choice, Sen - that'll do fine! :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 07 May 18 - 09:10 AM

Backwoodsman - how do you get all the good jobs


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 18 - 09:31 AM

By being a prospective burglar who makes friends with his very nice victims, and booking an appointment for the burglary! :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 07 May 18 - 09:51 AM

Obviously pays to be organised and have influence
Will you be posting a recommendation on Trivago


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 18 - 10:01 AM

LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 10:05 AM

"I regard Mudcatters as my friends ."
Depens who and what they are - I don't have any friens who persecute minorities
"Draw your own conclusions to that statement "
You are welcome to do the same
"After a' we are a' Jock Tamsons bairns "
My point exactly - my "bairns include 100s of the Travellers Iains is racially denigrating
You need to address what Iains said rather than tip-toeing around it
I'e veen th consequences of his attitude up close - not a pretty sight
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 18 - 10:16 AM

"Suicide rate six times higher than the general population.(12% of all traveller deaths)
The highest infant mortality rate among any community(3.5 times normal)
The lowest educational achievement
The highest unemployment rate (84%)
only 13 per cent of Traveller children complete second-level education compared to 92 per cent in the settled community.
Travellers make up 0.6 per cent of the population yet account for 10 per cent of the male prisoner population and 22 per cent of the female prison population.
Almost 10 per cent of the people under probation supervision are Travellers,
Traveller males have a lifeexpectancy 15 years shorter than settled males, II years for traveller women.
Travellers with mental and physical health problems three times higher that the general population

If insisting on living in a caravan achieves the statistics above then I would suggest that perhaps travellers need to try living in houses like other people, stop bleating they are misunderstood and discriminated against and leave their anachronistic lifestyle behind. The statistics suggest that insisting on retaining a nomadic lifestyle will eventually exterminate them.

If I kept my children away from education I would be prosecuted, for travellers it is ignored. Why is that?"

Which is all a serious indictment of the rest of society.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 10:22 AM

Spot on, Steve. It's all about whether you blame the circumstances or the victims. We have yet to hear from Iains which one he blames.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 May 18 - 10:31 AM

If trump arrives in july, it must be on the condition that no tax payers money whatsover is spent on that insignificant piece of trash. No security, no chauffer driven limos, no accomodation. It can use public transport or walk.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 10:51 AM

Can't see it happening SPB but it is a lovely idea :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 07 May 18 - 11:15 AM

Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 06 May 18 - 08:26 PM

"As a group they contain a very visible minority with no respect for the law or for others property."
Stereotyping racism again Iains

Jim introduced the Word "Travellers" into this thread.
Iains commented in the words shown in Jims post.

Can either Steve or Dtg explain why Iains post at that point was racist ?


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 11:31 AM

"Can either Steve or Dtg explain why Iains post at that point was racist ?"
Can you explain why it is not
TRavellers are a recognised ethnic Group - recent DNA tsts show they have inhabited these island for at least a millenia
Why is it not racist to refer to them a thieves?
What Iains wrote was racial stereotyping
Travellers are the least acquisitive people I have ever met - if they steal it is out of necessity, not to increase their bank account holdings or finance second homes, or live in luxury
That's what all those politicians and bankers who have been caught dipping into the public purse do
We found out the hard way that you never admire anything a Traveller has otherwise you will be given it - never known my bank manager do that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 11:31 AM

"Can either Steve or Dtg explain why Iains post at that point was racist ?"
Can you explain why it is not
TRavellers are a recognised ethnic Group - recent DNA tsts show they have inhabited these island for at least a millenia
Why is it not racist to refer to them a thieves?
What Iains wrote was racial stereotyping
Travellers are the least acquisitive people I have ever met - if they steal it is out of necessity, not to increase their bank account holdings or finance second homes, or live in luxury
That's what all those politicians and bankers who have been caught dipping into the public purse do
We found out the hard way that you never admire anything a Traveller has otherwise you will be given it - never known my bank manager do that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 07 May 18 - 11:47 AM

Jim
I didn't ask you
"Can you explain why it was not" is trawling the bottom of barrel for last resort comments .... not up to your usual standard

Im genuinely interested to see how Steve and Dave define racism because it appears to me that there is a new definition of racism i havnt heard and wondered if they had.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 12:10 PM

"I didn't ask you "
Whern I was arguing with Iains I didn't ask you
THis is a public forum
"not up to your usual standard"
It's fairly higher than your inability to respond to my question - or any of my other points
I've explained in detail why I belive Iain's comments to be racist and I've listedf in detail the effects comments like his on an entire community who already have enough to cope with
I'd have thought they were worthy of a response, just as I'd have thought Steve's posting above does, especially as it answers many of the points you have raised
Are you really suggesting that an accusation of being thieves aimed at an entire community is not racist?
New set of values on me
I have spent half a lifetime opposing this bigotry
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 12:12 PM

"As a group they contain a very visible minority with no respect for the law or for others property."
This was the posting I responded to by the way
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 May 18 - 12:17 PM

If Travellers are stereotyped as thieves, then on the basis of Huntley should we be stereotyping white British men as child murderers?


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 07 May 18 - 12:18 PM

If the same was said about the Tory party would it be racist

Ps I'm NOT a tory supporter in any shape or form


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 07 May 18 - 12:22 PM

SPB .. Jim likes historical rants to cover his points


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 18 - 12:23 PM

I have no idea what you are talking about, Kenny. Sorry. My point was while the statistics seem to be indisputable, it is what you make of them that matters. To date Iains has not told us What he makes of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 May 18 - 01:16 PM

"As a group they contain a very visible minority with no respect for the law "

Is there ANY group about which this cannot be said? Are there not MINORITIES of all groups that do not respect the law? Is ANY group TOTALLY without lawbreakers? There are even Amish that are shunned!


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 May 18 - 01:21 PM

Senoufou,

re:"
By being a prospective burglar who makes friends with his very nice victims, and booking an appointment for the burglary! :-) :-) "

Can I make an appointment to politely burgle a few crumpets?   8-{E



( have to be exchanged at some Tavern, though- I doubt I will get 'over the pond' anytime soon. Last over in 1974 or so- to Norway)


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 07 May 18 - 01:29 PM

Dear Bearded Bruce in my opinion you are correct however I believe Jim likes to play the masochist and I like to oblige him by being the sadist, its a harmless game if played between consenting adults
I asked Steve and Dave because I had already asked Jim and guess what .... no cogent answer


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 01:33 PM

"white British men as child murderers?"
Or sex traffickers, or rapists, or racists, or gun criminals, or muggers, or paedofiles, or sex pests, or incestuous parents.... all fairly common crimes among the settled population and relatively rare among the Travelling community   
2Jim likes historical rants to cover his points"
And you are extremely fond of slinging out accusations and refusing toi respond to responses
What you are doing in support of Iaian's racism is little short of hit-and-run trolling
If you have an honest argument, why not advance it rather rthan let Iain's take the flak - he, at least has saidf what he believes to be the case - you just hide behind what he says by defending him
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 01:36 PM

"Jim likes to play the masochist "
Now youy are just rsorting to personal s,ears, which is what you accused me of doing
Think you've painted yourself into a bit of a corner on this one
"no cogent answer" and now you are resorting to lies - I have given masses of answers here - you many not accept them, but that's your problem


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 May 18 - 01:51 PM

beardedbruce, of course. Crumpets a-plenty here!
I've also just made some rather nice pancakes rolled up with lemon juice and sugar. Husband is stuffed full already, so you and Backwoodsman are welcome to the coffee cake, nice cups of tea and crumpets. Leave some for the genuine burglars though.

I'm sorry to see generalisations on this thread about travellers.
No group of any sort can be entirely saintly or entirely evil. One tends to remember those who stand out, forgetting the perfectly unassuming ordinary examples.

Prejudice is so destructive of good relations between us all.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 07 May 18 - 02:32 PM

Jim the Thread title is "London is a War Zone"
If you aren't going to stick to the subject why should anybody take you seriously .... get a sense of humour ... it'll do you good


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 02:55 PM

"m the Thread title is "London is a War Zone""
So?
The Travellers I speak about were living in London when we knew them
The subject, as far as I'm concerned covers the violence taking place at present involving knives and guns - the OP mentioned guns specifically
I gave an example of a gun crime and someone (an American) advocating that everybody should own a gun, mentioning a Traveller victim of a fatal shooting - where on earth is the thread- drift in that?
It was Iains who introduced the anti- Traveller racism, not me - it was you who took up th cudgels on behalf of his racism - go take it up with yourself
Why are you people so transparent - you pursue an argument quite happily until you find yourselves out of your depth, than you squeal "thread drift" as if you hadn't been part of it.
And do you not realise how utterly stupid it is to come in accusing someone of being insulting (which I haven't) and of not putting up an agrument (which I have) the fail to put up an argument yourself (which you have) and revert to personal insulting (which you also have)
Do you people come with a patent number - you certainly run to a type?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 18 - 03:11 PM

All the comments so far miss the most important fact that I raised that the anachronistic traveller lifestyle inhibits the development of the child in that environment. As pointed out thus can be summarised as poor health care, poor education and a suicide rate among young people off the Richter scale. In any other segment of society exposing a child to such a toxic environment would be regarded as abuse and the children taken away.
As for how I feel about it. I have zero sympathy for a sector of society that thinks it can cling to a nomadic lifestyle in the modern UK. Seasonal work is now performed by Eastern Europeans. You tell me how you can hold a regular job, tax and insure a vehicle, give children regular medical care and schooling while your address is care of the 20 mile layby on the great north road.
   I have lived in countries where a nomadic lifestyle is still the norm. It is not the norm in the UK, it is an anachronism and damages kids. Why do you continually support it Jim? Do you hate children?

"Travellers are the least acquisitive people I have ever met - if they steal it is out of necessity, not to increase their bank account holdings or finance second homes, or live in luxury"

Hey jimmy are you for real?


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 18 - 05:02 PM

A government review of the law and powers to deal with unauthorised caravan sites and developments has been announced today (5 April 2018) by Housing Minister Dominic Raab.

Unauthorised sites can cause significant distress for both the settled and nomadic communities – an issue increasingly raised in Parliament over recent months.

https://www.parliament.uk/edm/2010-12/2445

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/pictured-tonnes-rubbish-dumped-travellers-10313042


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 08:16 PM

Your racismm, your ignorance and your inhumanity appears to know no bounds and your return to your thuggishly bullying behaviour is an indication that you know it
Your flaunting the fact that Travellers are being ethnically cleansed by a govenmet that will not let them stop and will give them nowher to live places you beneath contempt
You would have had a true frienfd in Harry Watton - you must be one of hese Christians I keep reading about!

RUBBISH DUMPED BY SETTLED PEOPLE
https://www.google.ie/search?q=British+dustmans+strike+photos&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjwxt-_5fTaAhVGKMAKHe_uA-UQsAR6BAgAEC0&biw=1366&bih=637

https://www.google.ie/search?q=Britain%27srubbish+strewn+countryside&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiPpZL_5fTaAhVkBMAKHbCQCAcQsAR6BAgAECw&biw=1366&bih=637

https://www.google.ie/search?q=Britains+polluted+rivers&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi5yJyY5vTaAhVLLMAKHdaSAVMQsAR6BAgAEDI&biw=1366&bih=637

COFFEE CUPS

BRITAIN ONE OF THE MOST LITTERED NATIONS

A CAR DUMPED EVERY THIRTY MINUTES

RECYCLING CRISIS

PASS IT ON TO THE POORER NATIONS

CHEWING GUM

CHEMICAL WEAPONS WASTE

BRITAIN A GIANT RUBBISH BIN

ELECTRICAL GOODS

Makes the rubbish dumped by travellers somewhat insignifican't, doesn't it

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 08:19 PM

Sorry - missed a bit
"Hey jimmy are you for real?"

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains - PM
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:44 AM
Sweeping statements from shaw, no evidence to back it up. Now who else does that ad nauseum?
I recommend you get a new hymn book, some of your verses are misleading if not totally erroneous.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains - PM
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:23 PM
Didn't do you much good, did it?
A typical attempted put down by shaw and in particularly bad taste!
Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains - PM
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 06:12 AM
Chewing on lemons again. Pure gibberish.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains - PM
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 04:19 AM
Of course should anyone demand some proof to justify the bizarre statement above, it will be a forlorn hope.
The man is away with the faeries, as per usual. Trying to make a point by gross exaggeration and outright untruths. The only thing he insists on deleting from his nonsense is "once upon a time." and then he has the audacity to wonder why some treat him as a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains - PM
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 11:34 AM
The world according to little jimmie!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains - PM
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 03:56 PM
Go and infest another   thread jimmie. This one was progressing quite well until you started your usual frothing. How many times do different people have to spell things out to you, before you start paying attention. Are you stupid?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains - PM
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:17 AM
just knew it was too good to be true! Jimmies found his paintbox.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains - PM
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:57 AM
Stop posting rubbish and I will no longer treat you as the resident clown. It is very easy!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains - PM
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 06:46 AM
Most posting here prefer a semi serious debate on various topics interspersed by the occasional pisstake.
You on the other hand demand that all adhere to your often weird interpretation of events that you back up by "made up shit" and blustering bullying attacks on all who hold a counter view. How many people does it take to tell you this, before you recognise your own failings?
Were I to list all your silly postings, the internet would overload and grind to a halt. Now go away and stop behaving like millenial!
Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains - PM
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 10:47 AM
"or shut up"   I dare you!! It will be an insurmountable challenge.
Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains - PM
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 10:51 AM
While you continue to play the clown. Have you any idea what the word racist means? You scatter it about in your various diatribes like confetti. Is it an incantation that is supposed to stifle all further argument?
________________________________________
Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains - PM
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:09 AM
CARE TO EXPLAIN YOURSELF JIMMIE? DISHONESTY?
more drivelling nonsense of the resident clown!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains - PM
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:21 AM
Other people have been banned from this forum for far lesser offences than Jim's deliberately insulting lies.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains - PM
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:18 AM
Hoops, Hoops, Hoops!
Is this a new game? Can anybody play?????
From: Iains - PM
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:48 AM
If you read the link I supplied the answer would be in front of you.
You know you can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink.
Here yer go. "2nd attempt". Would you like it displayed in 4 foot fluorescents as well?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains - PM
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 11:55 AM

Trust little jimmie to pop up and introduce Jews into yet another thread. Can some king moderator delete his posts before he destroys yet another thread.
Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains - PM
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 06:02 AM
"Had the Irish Famine occurred in , say the Midlands or the North of England and had been handled in the manner it was in Ireland, it would have brought about mass unrest, even revolution, as it did here "
Stop making arguments up. You have zero justification for such a statement. It is merely your opinion, dressed up as false facts.
Have you no shame?
You are merely troublemaking as usual.


Keep it up - plenty more
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 18 - 11:31 PM

Are the insults personal enough yet to warrant the closing of this toxic thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 May 18 - 11:57 PM

this thread is starting to look like a flame war zone...

My mrs works with traveler kids whenever they are occasionally brought to school..
She likes these kids and enjoys working with them.

[I believe she also makes home visits to camp sites to discuss educational needs with the families prior to joining school,
but can't confirm this as she is asleep right now]

But from her point of view she finds it frustrating and disappointing
when they are making good progress with education,
and socialising well with other kids,
only to be withdraw by their parents...

Just contributing this from a reasonably neutral corner...


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 18 - 12:09 AM

Well I think the best way is for Jim and Ian to take their spat elsewhere. Maybe e-mails to each other.

THen the rest of us shut up.

Then mudcatters who actually live in London, tell us....are you living in a war zone?


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 18 - 12:23 AM

As a Youth-Worker back in the '80s and '90s, at a Youth Centre which served a school catchment area with a couple of 'tough'estates, in a town with an established, council-maintained Traveller Site, I found that the Traveller kids would stick with, and stand up for, their own kind if they felt under attack, physically or verbally, but otherwise they were no more difficult to deal with than the Settled kids.

Within both groups we had youngsters who were thieves and had to be watched closely, some were anti-social and anti-authority, some tended towards vandalism (which I took to be an element of their anti-social/anti-authority stance), a few could be violent, but most were decent young people who responded positively to being listened to and treated as young adults (which is exactly what they were), but I couldn't say that either group was 'better' or 'worse' than the other.

Youth Work, although a part of the education system, was (still is?) based on the 'befriending' concept rather than a teacher/student relationship, so we often found that youngsters who were regarded as 'difficult' in school formed happy, respectful relationships with adult Youth Workers - this applied equally to the Travellers as it did to the Settled community.

Just my two-penn'orth, based on my only experience of regular contact with Travellers.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 18 - 12:41 AM

Morning, Al. I guess I'm not the only one who can't sleep! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 18 - 03:04 AM

"Are the insults personal enough yet to warrant the closing of this toxic thread?"
I've finished with this feller Baccie - I think my point has been made
This was about gun crime (among other things) and if the example I gave of that can lead a suggestion that the victim of one of those gun crimes got what he deserved for being a member of a "anachronistic" cultural group and then lead to a vicious racist attack on that group, it seems to me that the future of any discussions are prone to being used by extremists to express their extremism
I aplogise for my part in what has happened - I attempted to illustrate my belief that crimes of violence are largely due to the ability to obtain weapons and the mindset that this establishes.
I will not continue with this here, but I do intend to take it elsewhere
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 May 18 - 03:38 AM

"Then mudcatters who actually live in London, tell us....are you living in a war zone?"

That is a gross exaggeration on Trumps part. Violent crime is hitting the news headlines at the moment, as it happens compritively rarely, so when it does happen it is more likely to find its way into the news, whereas homicide in America is so much an everyday event that only massacres are considered newsworthy.

The issues, as far as I am concerned are:

(1) Carrying guns is illegal.
(2) Cuts in policing means that their is a lot less crime prevention and a lack of resources to follow up minor crime.
(3) We have had 8 years of government policy which, with the help of the rabid right-wing press has been marginalising and dividing societies - the same happened under Thatcher.
(4) 8 years of successive cuts to funding has meant that their is no funding for initiatves that bring about community cohension of which breakdown of law and order is a symptom.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 18 - 03:41 AM

Yes Jim, I agree.

The Traveller you refer to was shot in the back whilst running away. That isn't, by any stretch of the imagination, 'self-defence', it's revenge, pure and simple. The death-penalty no longer exists in the U.K., and when it did exist, it was applied after due process of law, and it was not applicable, in the 20th century at any rate, to acts of burglary.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 18 - 03:42 AM

"Your racismm, your ignorance and your inhumanity appears to know no bounds and your return to your thuggishly bullying behaviour is an indication that you know it
Your flaunting the fact that Travellers are being ethnically cleansed by a govenmet that will not let them stop and will give them nowher to live places you beneath contempt"

and you are a bigoted old fool that feels he can hurl insults for no reason. Whatever gives you the right to suggest it is perfectly fine to disregard the law whenever you say so? I do not know what mental gyrations you go through to justify the above attack on me but lets be having some proof from any postings of mine to back up your string of insults. You are the bully on this forum, as your behaviour clearly demonstrates. Is this thread another you can claim as a scalp when it is closed.You are a disgrace, as are your arguments and the spelling you present them with.
Better men than you have been banned from this forum!

Everything I have presented is clearly evidenced by data in the public domain.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/about-30-of-children-in-care-cases-come-from-minorities-1.2448115


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 18 - 04:17 AM

Hmmmm! Well at least the Mods can't blame me when this thread is closed.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 18 - 04:23 AM

I've taken this argument elsewhere and because of Iain's response there, have requested that the moderators intervene to prevent the "Thread closure" thread being closed
Can I beg their indulgence and make the same request here
This appears to me little less than trollism gone viral
Sorry for the interruption (from both of us, I hope)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 18 - 04:30 AM

Being labelled a racist repeatedly by the sour little scouser I find upsetting. He has zero justification for using such an epithet and cannot provide it when repeatedly asked. He just froths even more inanities and then claims he is being talked down to and bullied. What a pathetic little creature.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 18 - 04:47 AM

To those not involved in all this - I've just contacted a moderator and reported this so I hope it will be nipped in the bud sometime today - ignore it until that happens
Sorry again
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 18 - 04:53 AM

So have I. The latest diversion raised interesting questions about the assimilation of minority groups into wider society. But laddie with the blunderbus destroyed any hope of that concept being developed.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 May 18 - 05:02 AM

If the statistics show that a particular group of people

human beings are supremely evolved to discern patterns. And if a person looks like trouble then we are wary. And if the pattern does suggest that 10% of a group (howsoever defined) cause PTSD for the rest of your life why wouldn't you be wary? Voicing wariness is at the same end of the spectrum as racism. They may come from different angles but the wariness is no different.

Now - has anyone been to Stow on the Wold Horse Fair? Half the shops are closed. Shops like the sweet shop, that would be of interest to the attendees, and campers. Pure statistics. The losses outweigh the profit margins when the Fair is on. It is cheaper to be closed. And when I went, the campers were quite distinct as a group. And as friendly as I am to strangers I didn't have much in common with them.

The same would be said of similar peoples in big cities like Lundun, innit? Particularly if they wielded a knife.

When crossing the road, we look both ways, why wouldn't we look a people both ways and come to some decision re the gamble and the costs therefrom?


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 18 - 05:36 AM

Difficult situation: being a pensioner, living in an isolated house and being burgled by a gang of thieves of any racial or ethnic group...

who knows what you might have done in panic...
judge not lest ye be judged, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 18 - 05:44 AM

"judge not lest ye be judged, Jim."
The murder I gave as an example was not carried out "in a panic" Al
It was a cold blooded and calcumated execution of a man incapacitated and lying on the ground, having been beaten by a fence pole and shot
The killer had enough time for thought to go in, load his gun again and kill a wounded man - cold-blooded murder
Even the farmer knew what he had done was a crime when he went to court - he fully expected a "guilty" verdict asnd was prepared for one
The "not Guilty verdict was, I believe the result of the racism towards Travellers that pervades Ireland
The situation in Ireland with Travellers is that they are being "hated" out of existence
This was the result of such hatred
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 18 - 06:55 AM

Clearly the shooting of a Traveller that Jim speaks of is not the one I mentioned. Mine was the Tony Martin incident in Norfolk a number of years ago.

Just thought I'd mention that in order to avoid confusion (I seem to have been confused anyway!).


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 18 - 07:12 AM

the 'particular' seems to have overwhelmed the 'general' in this discussion...???


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 18 - 07:27 AM

And to be fair to Dave, who started the thread, it seems to have drifted a very long way from his topic.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 18 - 07:34 AM

i was thinking of the tony martin case as well. i dunno about traveller situation in Ireland, but a mate of mine has live down the road from the traveller encampment in Slough. His kids played with the traveller kids, and his son has become impressed with the way of life, and pretty much adopted it.

i won't say there is never any conflict, but there are examples of everything working out in a nice friendly way. perhaps it would be an idea to concentrate on the more positive aspects.

the tv does seem to concentrate on all the crazy ones - bare knuckle fighters, crooks who daren't show their faces on tv, jeremy kyle types.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 18 - 07:52 AM

It has indeed wandered, BWM, but these things do. At least it has not been completely taken over and derailed. Yet!


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 18 - 07:55 AM

Fingers crossed, Dave!

And a nice post from Big Al - balanced, measured, and thoughtful.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 08 May 18 - 08:06 AM

Back to the subject
A very good discussion on the BBC Radio2 Jeremy Vine show today about how the knife problem in Glasgow was tackled with positive results not perfect results but positive results


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 May 18 - 08:17 AM

I still feel that for a person to lose their life (no matter who they are or what they've done or to which group they belong) is a tragedy, and I feel so sorry for their family.

And I also feel that generalisations and 'tarring everyone with the same brush' is dangerous and leads to racism, hatred, ostracising and violence.

There have been problems with a group of travellers in Norfolk quite recently, in particular in Cromer last year during the Cromer Festival. But even Norfolk Police issued a statement later saying it would be wrong to include ALL travellers in a blanket condemnation (quite rightly).

We get Bank Holiday bikers having fights sometimes in Yarmouth, drunks getting violent in Norwich after the clubs close, drug dealers and their 'customers' being attacked or even killed. It all goes on, and not just in London.
However, the words 'war zone' is just journalistic inflammatory language aimed at firing up reactions and provoking anger.
The solution to that is not to become angry, heated, racist, defensive, accusatory and so on. That would just be playing right into their hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 18 - 08:32 AM

Where in Norfolk are you Sen?
"And a nice post from Big Al - balanced, measured, and thoughtful."
As usual
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 May 18 - 08:45 AM

A small village in the Breckland area, not that far from Dereham Jim.
Certainly no war zone round here - totally silent most of the time, and if one even sneezes everybody would know about it!


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 18 - 09:25 AM

" totally silent most of the time, and if one even sneezes everybody would know about it!"
We are in a similar place here, the locals say "everybody here knows what hand you use to wipe your bum"
Less refined but just as succinct
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 May 18 - 03:58 PM

I received requests from two Mudcatters for moderator intervention in this thread and another. Well, I sure am not going to intervene. I think I'd rather sit and play cards in the middle of a busy highway. It would be much safer.
This thread died yesterday, 07 May 18 - 08:19 PM, when somebody posted a long list of allegedly offensive posts from another poster and another thread from another month. And then came all the allegations of racism and other offenses.
That more-or-less killed the thread, because nobody on earth but the 08:19 PM poster, could possibly have any interest in all that. So, now the thread is toxically boring. I'll take another look this evening, California time. If the thread is still toxic, I'll close it. Or maybe Jeri or Maggie will give it a merciful death a little earlier.

The problem occurs when people get personal in their insults, instead of addressing the subject that is supposedly the topic of discussion. I know there are hurt feelings on both sides, and I don't know how to fix that. I think the best thing to do is stick to the topic and to the facts, and avoid categorizing each other as "trolls" or "racists" or whatever.

The proposed topic of this thread showed promise of being an interesting discussion, but it strayed from the topic rather quickly. See if you all can bring it back on topic, willya?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 18 - 05:58 PM

well i visited the house of commons (you write to your MP and he arranges for you to do a guided tour -even if you didn't vote for him)the week after the nasty business where a cop was stabbed outside the houses of parliament.

and i admit it spooked me a bit, but really its such an amazing place that you have to persist.

a war zone though....


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 18 - 06:44 PM

Not a fair analysis of what happened Joe, but I bow to your decision
The list is part of several hundred more abusive posts by the poster - you may go and cheeck should you wish
If that behavior is allowed to continue that you give carte blance for it to continue and threads like the one discussing why threads close are wasting their time
I would have preferred a PM on this, but since you chose to bring it into the open, so did I
Do you really think that list is made up of "allaged" offences?
You surprise me
It doesnt offer much hope for decent discussion in future
Sadly
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 18 - 06:46 PM

Just noticed the thread closure thread is closed
Bye all
Thanks for the fish
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 18 - 07:24 PM

"I received requests from two Mudcatters for moderator intervention in this thread and another."

Having been excoriated by several people on both sides of the divide following my honesty in revealing that I'd asked for the Gaza thread to be looked at, I wish to declare that neither of the above-stated was me! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: London is a war zone!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 18 - 12:49 AM

Like I said, I would have been safer playing in traffic.

I tried my best not to take sides. I said the offenses were alleged, because I did not want to pass judgment on them. But to bring them up a month later does nobody any good.

This thread didn't improve, so it's closed.

And note that although I did not name who complained, I can say with all certainty that it was not Steve Shaw....he'll complain later. ;-)

-Joe Offer-


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 14 November 10:34 AM EST

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