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BS: Are there any English-Americans?

McGrath of Harlow 09 May 18 - 02:22 PM
punkfolkrocker 09 May 18 - 02:28 PM
Joe Offer 09 May 18 - 03:21 PM
mg 09 May 18 - 03:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 May 18 - 04:19 PM
Joe Offer 09 May 18 - 04:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 May 18 - 04:54 PM
keberoxu 09 May 18 - 05:18 PM
robomatic 09 May 18 - 05:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 May 18 - 05:44 PM
Jeri 09 May 18 - 06:16 PM
wysiwyg 09 May 18 - 09:02 PM
Stilly River Sage 09 May 18 - 09:44 PM
Rapparee 09 May 18 - 10:34 PM
leeneia 09 May 18 - 11:11 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 May 18 - 03:32 AM
Nigel Parsons 10 May 18 - 08:50 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 18 - 10:01 AM
Mr Red 10 May 18 - 03:27 PM
ChanteyLass 10 May 18 - 11:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 May 18 - 03:15 AM
Mr Red 11 May 18 - 04:15 AM
Nigel Parsons 11 May 18 - 05:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 18 - 07:37 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 11 May 18 - 08:55 AM
Nigel Parsons 11 May 18 - 09:35 AM
meself 11 May 18 - 10:01 AM
meself 11 May 18 - 10:09 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 May 18 - 10:12 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 11 May 18 - 10:14 AM
Rapparee 11 May 18 - 10:27 AM
leeneia 11 May 18 - 03:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 May 18 - 07:04 PM
ChanteyLass 11 May 18 - 09:43 PM
keberoxu 11 May 18 - 09:59 PM
Mr Red 12 May 18 - 03:12 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 May 18 - 08:53 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 May 18 - 03:00 PM
Stilly River Sage 12 May 18 - 04:28 PM
leeneia 14 May 18 - 10:24 AM
CupOfTea 15 May 18 - 10:11 AM
meself 15 May 18 - 10:33 AM
Bat Goddess 16 May 18 - 04:14 PM
robomatic 16 May 18 - 09:54 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 May 18 - 04:46 AM

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Subject: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 May 18 - 02:22 PM

What I mean is, are there any Americans who collectively identify themselves, in the way you have Irish Americans and Italian Americans and African Americans who go in for celebrating it? (Even when that might not be strictly accurate for them on St Patrick's Day, for example.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 18 - 02:28 PM

.. not forgetting the Welsh Americans...

..actually it's my mrs who won't let me let you forget them....


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 18 - 03:21 PM

Interesting question. I think that the hyphen-American terms were established by minorities trying to claim self-respect in the face of the Ruling Class. And to this day, the Ruling Class in America has English roots.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: mg
Date: 09 May 18 - 03:44 PM

I think a lot of English people went to Canada..not sure how many emigrated to each place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 May 18 - 04:19 PM

The official estimate is about 7.6%, compared to 10.5% for Irish Americans and 5.5 for Italian Americans, and 12.7% African Americans.

Of course people have multiple ancestries. I'd suspect there might be a lot of people who could claim English ancestry, but prefer to identify with one of the others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 18 - 04:39 PM

There has been a long history of Cornish-American miners in the U.S. - but they would never call themselves English.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 May 18 - 04:54 PM

Quite right too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 May 18 - 05:18 PM

Consider, for a start, that
one region of the continental US calls itself
"New England."

Mudcatter mg is quite right about Canada;
the Royalists streaming out of "New England"
and heading north, over the border;
the parts of Quebec, for example,
which in a few spots have a heritage as much English as French,
villages near the US-Canada border where
the former New-Englanders went to ground.

"New England" is actually a complicated state of affairs.
There is all that business of religious persecution, for one thing.
You had the eastern Massachusetts bunch,
very strict Congregationalists,
and highly intolerant of, for example, Catholics.

Then comes the area now known as Rhode Island,
which in itself has layers of contradiction;
for even though Rhode Island is remembered for
the excesses of the Gilded Age and the industrialists,
long before then it was a place of religious tolerance,
where such as Roger Williams could worship as he saw fit
without the persecution he would have experienced in the Boston area.

It is something of a literary cliche that there are
families who know the names of the ships from which
their ancestors left England for New England.

This does not even take into account
the waves of immigration for countries other than England:
worker migrations, to work in the mills, the quarries, the factories.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: robomatic
Date: 09 May 18 - 05:32 PM

I went to primary school in New England and once asked one of my fellow school mates what her heritage was. She wrinkled her pretty nose and said, dismissively in the modest sense like it was a family faux pas: "Mayflower".


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 May 18 - 05:44 PM

An English identification can be tricky in some contexts, and I suspect that might be a factor.

I was in a dance hall in Kerry one. There were flags around the walls of the countries Irish emigrants have ended up - which meant just about every country there is. But one exception, no English flag. Scotland, Wales, yes, no England.

And I know myself, I'm London Irish, but never in a million years would I call myself an Irish-Englishman, and I don't know anyone who would.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 May 18 - 06:16 PM

We're a nation of immigrants. Unless a person's an American Indian/Native American, their people came from somewhere else. We've got hyphens up the wazoo. Maybe because English folks got here very early, there doesn't seem to be a lot of celebrating English heritage. Or maybe it's because of the food.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 May 18 - 09:02 PM

There are some circles in which all are encouraged to name their heritage-- African-heritage, English-heritage, etc. In those circles, I self-identify as "Swedish/English/German heritage".

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 May 18 - 09:44 PM

My father is proud of his Irish/Scottish heritage, my mother of her Norwegian and Danish. Somehow, between the two of them, DNA-wise, the largest share of the pie in their kids shows roots in the North of England. Go figure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 May 18 - 10:34 PM

English-Americans? I have a BA in English, but it's actually literature in English. Back where I come from, the Germans and Irish were dominated by the "Yankees" who came from New England. But these days they don't identify as much of anything -- sometimes a good German girl would marry a (gasp!) Irish lad. Naturally no one talked about such things, even if they were within the same religion.

Interesting fact: way back when, the first Catholic church in town was founded by the Germans and it was called St. Boniface. Then the Irish showed up and founded the church St. Lawrence O'Toole (yes, there really is such a saint). Now, St. Boniface is closed and St. Lawrence O'Toole is called St. Peter's. All the parishes were combined (6 Catholic churches) into St. Francis, All Saints (which includes St. Rose, where they still do Latin masses) and St. Peter's.

Even more interesting, at least to me, is that St. Peter's Cemetery had some of the land chopped off back in the early 1970s so a street could be widened. Now, the cemetery is the burying ground of Father Augustus Tolten, the first African-American priest in the US and a former slave. Tolten is called "Blessed Augustus Tolten and he'll probably be a saint someday. Then they'll take all the land around there and build a basilica or something and the city will have to re-route the street.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: leeneia
Date: 09 May 18 - 11:11 PM

You have raised a good question, McGrath. I have never heard of any English-Americans. I myself have forbears from England, but we never gave ourselves a hyphen.

For one thing, the first to come over were so far back. 1870's and before.

Really, what could we do with an English-American heritage? Go out and drive on the wrong side of the road? Eat suet? Call soccer "football"?

JUST KIDDING!

One reminder - there are Episcopalian or Anglican churches in every settlement of any size.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 18 - 03:32 AM

I always thought you must be a Northern English lass, Acme. So wise and down to earth :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 18 - 08:50 AM

Of course, not forgetting that many of the early settlers to America were English deportees. (prior to 1787 when they started being sent to Australia)
So claiming to be English-American could be admitting to being descended from members of penal colonies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 18 - 10:01 AM

As a born and bred Scrumpyshire man I took some pride/shame in a theory I heard of decades ago
that what we now recognise as an American accent
is derived partially from influential roots of wurzel sounding early immigrants from the West of England
[mixed with a bit of Irish..]...???

Arrrrrr.. be that theory gurt clumps of cow muck... arrrrrrrr.. begorrah...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 May 18 - 03:27 PM

Any Staffordshire-Americans - ower kid?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 10 May 18 - 11:43 PM

I have always identified myself as a French Canadian-American (3/4) and English Canadian-American. My dad was born in the same Rhode Island city where I was born; my mom was born in New Hampshire, but her first language was French.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 18 - 03:15 AM

Prior to 1787 when they started being sent to Australia)
So claiming to be English-American could be admitting to being descended from members of penal colonies.


I believe in Australia it can be quite a source of pride to have convict ancestry. I've got a great-grandfather (or maybe an extra "great" in there) who was supposed to have been transported there for shooting a landlord's agent; and he eventually came back, and we're all proud of him.

I know there are a fair number of Morris Dance sides in America now. I've never heard whether this is particularly associated with celebrating English heritage. Is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 May 18 - 04:15 AM

Border Morris - Border-line-American?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 May 18 - 05:26 AM

McGoH:
Yes, we've all heard of the man being stopped at Australian passport control and asked "Do you have a criminal record?"
To which he replied:
"I didn't know it was a requirement!"


Better than:
"Do you have a police record?"
"Yes, 'walking on the moon'."


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 May 18 - 07:37 AM

Really, what could we do with an English-American heritage? Go out and drive on the wrong side of the road? Eat suet? Call soccer "football"?
JUST KIDDING!


Why not?
You got both sorts of football from us but got the names wrong.
Suet puddings are great, and we both already like apple pie.
You seem to like our old songs too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 11 May 18 - 08:55 AM

Some Amish refer to any non-Amish person as "English".

Some Hispanics refer to any white person as "Anglo".

White people who exhibit certain characteristics are sometimes referred to as "WASPs" (acronym for "White Anglo-Saxon Protestant").

All the above are based on perceived English heritage though, in fact, they're as likely to be applied to just about any white person.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 May 18 - 09:35 AM

Some Hispanics refer to any white person as "Anglo".
Of course, the original Angles were a Germanic people who settled in these islands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: meself
Date: 11 May 18 - 10:01 AM

I've never like that term 'WASP' - because of its redundant quality - is it really necessary to distinguish an Anglo-Saxon as 'White'? What other colours do Anglo-Saxons come in?

(Exit, grumbling).


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: meself
Date: 11 May 18 - 10:09 AM

But more to the point: in a recent google search for an old colleague, from the Caribbean, I discovered the existence of a 'St. George Society' here in Alberta. It seems to consist of ex-pat English folk - and a few West Indians who apparently identify with the British motherland. Not a very high-profile organization.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 18 - 10:12 AM

Odd term WASP - used accurately it wouldn't include most white Americans, I imagine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 11 May 18 - 10:14 AM

Jeri nails it, as usual. Me, I'm about 80% English heritage, and a cradle Episcopalian. I drink loose leaf "builder's tea", still prefer literature from the British Isles over most American writing. Oh, and I'm a lapsed morris dancer. I guess I'm English-American, even though it is not a term used here.

Dear Husband identifies as WASP.

AND we both love Cuban food and music, I have done my share of African dancing and drumming and singing, we have friends and relations from every heritage "insert nationality here"-American and otherwise, and we love being part of this wild, wacky, mixed up, colorful* world.






*Unlike the late lamented Katlaughing, however, I don't spell it "colour"


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 May 18 - 10:27 AM

My wife is an American of Irish and Alsatian ancestry. I'm an American of German descent. BFD -- we are who we are. There's probably bits and pieces of other places in there (all those armies criss-crossing Europe for all those years) but I'm not that interested in have a genetic test done to find out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: leeneia
Date: 11 May 18 - 03:13 PM

Recently I read a book on the history of the English language, and it said that the so-called Anglo-Saxons were actually Friesians from right across the channel.

Makes sense. I'd often wondered how the Saxons hopped over a big swath of western Europe to get to England, because Saxony is really far east.

If Saxons come from Saxony, do Angles come from Agony?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 18 - 07:04 PM

Most people are mixed up by descent, obviously in America, but pretty often back here also. But often they tend to pick on one element in the mix to adopt especially. That's what I had in mind when I asked the question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 11 May 18 - 09:43 PM

Good one, leeneia!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: keberoxu
Date: 11 May 18 - 09:59 PM

Here's another one to consider:
the southeastern continental US,
particularly what is referred to domestically as
"the deep South."

The much-caricatured "Southern" accent -- or is it accents --
has some relationship to England and English speech.
The late lamented Alan Rickman remarked on this
when he played a role in "Something that the Lord Made,"
a biopic on HBO, in the character of a Southern US physician.

I don't know, as a Yankee from around Lake Erie,
how seriously the "Southerners" take their English ancestry,
but it is there, regardless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 May 18 - 03:12 AM

Anglo-Saxons were actually Friesians

Numerically - probably. Because when scholars wanted to speak Anglo-Saxon they use the Friesian language** as more than a guide.

I was always taught that the Anglo-Saxons originated from that part of Europe - the Angles, Saxons and Jutes (Jutland - Denmark/Germany). The Vikings (Danelaw) ruled in East Anglia at times - think Cnut.

**Goggle have the tranlation on their list. I used it to produce one of my FAQ pages.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 May 18 - 08:53 AM

I don't think they fancy the cut of our jib, Carruthers....!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 18 - 03:00 PM

I've never heard a Southern accent that sounds anywhere near English. Some Yankee accents do though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 May 18 - 04:28 PM

I suspect the Southern music and songs (versions and verses) are going to be closer to the centuries old English songs than the language itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: leeneia
Date: 14 May 18 - 10:24 AM

I think that connection between Southern accents and English accents lies in the resemblance between the vowel sounds, especially the vowels of working class people. Further than that, I do not know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: CupOfTea
Date: 15 May 18 - 10:11 AM

I've never been a hyphenate-American, not being strongly "of" one ethnic heritage over another, and all the known ancestors having been here for several generations. Cleveland is a city with many strong ethnic enclaves, with nationality clubs, festivals, cultural gardens, dance troupes, weekly language radio on NPR. The only English designated things are the English -speaking Union, who seem to promote Shakespeare essay contests, and a section of the cultural gardens.

That we are part of the Connecticut Western Reserve, with much of the early settlers being New England Protestants, an English heritage was the default, I'm thinking, for most folks ( till the Irish came canal building. )

So all the hyphenated were the other folks, who banded together., and have a strong inclination to marry within their own ethnic group. Clannish, some to the point of having cotillions to help keep it that way. African-Americans were the most immediately recognizable, well before that term was used. The sections of town that became "Little Italy" or "Slavic Village" or the Hungarian section of Buckeye, would socially exclude outsiders for generations. England also didn't have the mass migrations that war and civil upheavals that gave us waves of Irish, Polish, Italians, or Jews did. The city(suburb) I live in, every street name has a direct antecedent in England.
Being the assumed (even if incorrect) majority, Englishness wasn't something that had to be worked at like Irishness or Lithuanianness. Trying to get folks come to English Country Dance on an ethnic basis hasn't worked at all, but there are half a dozen schools of Irish dance.

I've actually been thinking about how in some subtle ways, identifying with English roots is looked down upon. They're the oppressors, dontcha know? Slavers, and what they did to the Irish and Scots! Scorned because I thought we spoke what my folks called "the King's English" - way too proper. I see the divisiveness of having strong single ethnic identification, as so few of us are even close to being purely one thing or another, as a detriment to harmony. So I don't hyphenate. I will label myself an "Anglophile" for my love of that heritage, song, dance, eccentric folkways, literature, art, and tea till the cows come home. I acknowledge that the English and Irish parts of family history are all that interest me, and I avoid all emotional connection to the German side though I couldn't avoid the heavy Germantic body, dagnabbit.

That's my take on why English-American just isn't a thing.

Joanne in Cleveland Heights


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: meself
Date: 15 May 18 - 10:33 AM

"Lithuanianness"?! It would be work enough just to try to say it aloud - I would need to go have a nap after ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:14 PM

My ancestry is, as far as I know (six or seven generations) all German. (Well, maybe some proto-Polish -- it all depended on who had the stronger army at the time, didn't it?) However Germany wasn't a unified country until 1871 and many of my ancestors came to Wisconsin in the years before unification.

I believe all of my maternal ancestors came from Saxony. Does that make me Saxon?

My grandparents went to German language schools in Wisconsin. Zion Lutheran Church in Colby had a German language service until the 1960s.

I grew up in Milwaukee where the city had German Socialist mayors until 1959. And still has a rich German culture, though it's gotten more diverse since the 19th century. It's also now a city of ethnic festivals -- Pridefest, Polish Fest, Festa Italiana, German Fest, Black Arts Fest, Irish Fest, Mexican Fiesta and Indian Summer.

But I've never known anyone who primarily identifies as German-American. Just plain unhyphenated American who happens to be of German ancestry.

But as far as I know, the only time Germans were discriminated against because of their ancestry and heritage was during World War I. (A great grandfather decided to return to Germany because he favored Kaiser Bill. He died on the ship back and was buried in Germany.)

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: robomatic
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:54 PM

I have heard of theories that the manner of accent and syntax of a part of southern U.S. Chesapeake region is thought to be similar to English speech some centuries ago, a living museum.

But getting back to Massachusetts. There is a lovely National Historic Site in the Boston area where a colonial iron works was established. The Saugus Iron Works worth a visit for local and visitor alike. Apparently when trying to make the works fiscally feasible, the source of cheap labor was Scots POWs (yes, Prisoners of War) from the Puritan goings on in Blighty. In time the workers joined the community, and at the time it was considered a real culture clash.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are there any English-Americans?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 May 18 - 04:46 AM

they obviously aren't that keen.. they chucked us out, and celebrate the chucking out every July 4th.


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