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Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial

Donuel 21 May 18 - 01:41 PM
Jim Carroll 21 May 18 - 01:03 PM
keberoxu 21 May 18 - 12:44 PM
Iains 21 May 18 - 04:20 AM
mg 20 May 18 - 09:00 PM
Donuel 20 May 18 - 07:41 PM
Jim Carroll 19 May 18 - 07:09 AM
Steve Shaw 19 May 18 - 05:44 AM
Jim Carroll 19 May 18 - 04:28 AM
Steve Shaw 18 May 18 - 08:02 PM
Jim Carroll 18 May 18 - 07:34 PM
mg 18 May 18 - 03:46 PM
keberoxu 18 May 18 - 02:57 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 08:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 May 18 - 07:21 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 07:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 May 18 - 06:44 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 05:52 PM
Jack Campin 16 May 18 - 04:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 May 18 - 02:08 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 01:08 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 01:02 PM
Joe Offer 16 May 18 - 01:00 PM
Joe Offer 16 May 18 - 12:19 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 09:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 18 - 08:55 AM
Jack Campin 16 May 18 - 06:38 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 05:39 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 05:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 18 - 04:45 AM
Joe Offer 16 May 18 - 02:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 May 18 - 08:41 PM
Steve Shaw 15 May 18 - 07:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 May 18 - 06:59 PM
Joe Offer 15 May 18 - 01:12 PM
Donuel 15 May 18 - 01:00 PM
Steve Shaw 15 May 18 - 12:28 PM
bobad 15 May 18 - 11:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 18 - 11:31 AM
Steve Shaw 15 May 18 - 10:25 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 May 18 - 09:41 AM
Jack Campin 15 May 18 - 09:06 AM
Steve Shaw 15 May 18 - 05:07 AM
McGrath of Harlow 14 May 18 - 08:12 PM
Steve Shaw 14 May 18 - 07:59 PM
keberoxu 14 May 18 - 07:54 PM
Donuel 14 May 18 - 07:30 PM
Steve Shaw 14 May 18 - 07:09 PM
keberoxu 14 May 18 - 06:50 PM
Steve Shaw 14 May 18 - 06:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Donuel
Date: 21 May 18 - 01:41 PM

Climate deniers never die
They just watch the oceans rise


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 18 - 01:03 PM

You got it Iains
The Burren was one of the sites of a national campaign against the division of land in the latter half of the 19th century
In the 1880s The British Government instructed the breakup of the private estates belonging to absentee English landlords, but, true to form, they allocated them to wealthy farmers rather than those in need
A national campaign of cattle rustling was embarked on by local small-farmers who would drive the cattle through the towns, shouting and blowing horns - they would then be driven onto large open spaces like The Burren, leaving the owner to find and reclaim them
The campaign was officially called off in 1911, but persisted in Clare, Tipperary and parts of Galway up to Independence, and in North and East Clare, beyond that
This campaign produced a number of songs
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: keberoxu
Date: 21 May 18 - 12:44 PM

Shades of the Swiss alps, Iains.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Iains
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:20 AM

" "boolying in the Burren" A form of transhumance formerly practised in many countries. It would normally refer to moving stock to higher pastures in the summer e.g.alpine pastures. These pastures would have dwellings associated with them known as a hafod in Wales, a Shieling in Scotland. In Ireland transhumance pastures were known as Booley, Boley, Bouley, Buaile and Boola. These names survive in many place names such as Buaile h'Anraoi in Kilcommon parish, Erris, North Mayo, where the landscape still clearly shows the layout of the rundale system of agriculture. The livestock, usually cattle, was moved from a permanent lowland village to summer pastures in the mountains. The appearance of "Summerhill" (Irish: Cnoc an tSamhraidh) in many placenames also bears witness to the practice. Mentioned in the Brehon Laws, booleying would have dated back to the Early Medieval period or even earlier. The practice was widespread in the west of Ireland up until the time of the Second World War.
The Burren was the reverse process, where cattle were wintered on the Burren. In most places even a traditional sward would be heavily poached by cattle outwintering. The far better drainage of the limestone Burren would be far more resistant to poaching and this enabled outwintering to occur.


https://roaringwaterjournal.com/tag/booleying/


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: mg
Date: 20 May 18 - 09:00 PM

I can not believe what I am reading here. Do you mean this? If you do moderators need to be involved.

    Yes, it was a weird comment, mg. We usually don't moderate for content. Our job is just to keep the peace.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Donuel
Date: 20 May 18 - 07:41 PM

One way to take the rape factor out of the hands of priests is to let them marry.

Another is to use AI and robotics to take the rape factor away from people is to build and maintain sexual predator robots who will rape children automatically instead of religious people and policies ;^/


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 18 - 07:09 AM

"Maybe not the greatest for your garden, though..."
Surprisingly, though, it produces the most desirable cattle in the country
I attended a lecture at our local history group and amused the audience my mispronouncing the title and told them I thought it was about dancing - the title was "boolying in the Burren" - see if you can find it on Wiki
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 18 - 05:44 AM

"That's the problem with these gods who gave us all these beautiful things - they never offer to roll their sleeves up to help out"

Heheh, that's the line of the week is that. Must remember to use it next time I'm having a God-related ding-dong with Joe... :-)

Jim, the Burren is one of the most exciting botanical locations in these islands. That thin soil on limestone, coupled with mild Atlantic winters, is the key. Maybe not the greatest for your garden, though...


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 18 - 04:28 AM

" (I've got half an acre to mow and my garden won't admit ride-ons) "
That's the problem with these gods who gave us all these beautiful things - they never offer to roll their sleeves up to help out
We (accidentally) have an acre of bad soil, rushes and now ****** moss which we refuse let become an unsightly mess
We are a mile from the Atlantic so the salty air restricts us in what we grow, we live on a coastal plain so we have to drive 20 miles to Ennis to find out what time of year it is (no real trees), and the fact that we live over the far fringes of The Burren means that the few trees we have managed to coax into taking root in the foot or so of soil before we hit limestone look as if they's just staggered back pissed from one or the local sessions - I have to prop up two conifers some time as soon as I can rely on the weather not to wash them own again.
"All god's gifts around us" is a breach of the trades desription act around here
On the other hand, I understand from what somebody said last night, that shortly I will be able so sit in the garden and watch and listen to the skylark rise and fall in the next field, we are starting to be woken up early in the morning by the ***** cuckoos, the swallows are back with a vengeance with their aerobatic displays and the sheltered spot outside our back door is crawling with robins, finches, tits, stone-chats (now and then) and collard doves (and unfortunately the occasional sparrow hawk) all clambering to be fed
Tonight we'll settle down to Casualty to the sounds of the Herons clacking their way home over the road
My heart was nearly broken a few months ago when a lady living in the town next to our paper shop asked me not to feed the two beautiful white Peace Doves because they shit all over her doorstep - she asked me did want them, but we couldn't work out a way to get them home !
You win some - you lose some
Wouldn't have it any other way
Jim


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 08:02 PM

Bloody cracking story there, Jim. I got a bit poorly last week and I'd let my grass grow out of the chimbley pots. Spent all day today getting it back down (I've got half an acre to mow and my garden won't admit ride-ons) and even then I had to cut a whole season's growth down under my apple trees. I finished at ten to eight this evening, utterly shagged out. Spotted a shaft of warm evening sunlight on me patio, so poured meself a glass of Colombard and sat in the last bit of sun for fifteen minutes on me tod. Every bird for miles was singing its heart out and I just shut me eyes for a few minutes...

There was no God though. Everything I saw and heard in that fifteen minutes was sublimely ordinary and explicable. No need for Godly add-ons. Why can't we all just accept that the most beautiful thing about everything is just how ordinary it is?


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 18 - 07:34 PM

It's a pity this has to be about religion rather than the way it has been abused and manipulated by the people who invented it
Strip away the bogeymen, sky fairies and men in frocks and you have a half decent philosophy regarding how we should react to one another as human beings
If those claiming to be Christians lived up to their claim, this planet would be an infinitely more friendly and interesting place to inhabit.
Unfortunately.....

I concur totally with Tom Munnelly's description of one of Ireland's great traditional singers, Tom Lenihan - a man we recorded annually from 1974, when we first met him, to his death in January, 1990.
"Tom was a deeply religious Roman Catholic who practiced his faith without ostentation or cant. In all the years of working with him I never heard him say an unkind word about anybody. In making such a declaration I am aware that such claims can often be mere well-meaning clichés, but I wish to emphasise that I record it here as an objective statement of fact.
This lack of complication in Tom’s faith was not an indication of simplicity of mind. The simplicity Tom acquired over the years was that of wisdom and the ability to discard the peripheral while retaining core values. This was illustrated for me one day when I called to keep a recording appointment I had made with him the week before. In the meantime I had discovered that a pilgrimage to the Marian shrine at Knock for the over-sixties had been arranged on the same day. Knowing of Tom’s devoutness, I more than half expected him to be gone when I called up to Knockbrack. Sure enough, there was nobody about the house when I arrived. I was walking back to my car when I was hailed from a nearby field. Tom was in there thinning cabbages. I said: ‘I heard about the pilgrimage and I thought you’d be gone with them.’
‘Why would I travel a hundred miles? If I want God, isn’t He here with me in the garden?’
I couldn’t argue with that."

Me neither
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: mg
Date: 18 May 18 - 03:46 PM

every bishop in chile signed mass resignation letter. pope should sign one too because he was part of this mess and abused the victims. He has admitted this. he is good in some arenas but he is beyond horrible in the abuse situation. not just failure to do much of anything...but obstructing people who are trying to fix things. Not listening to people who were essentially rioting in a church in Chile. Not listening in Australia..Guam is a mess... Supposedly he publicly kissed the bishop who people are so upset about..Barros. Is there anyone in the church who has the strength to take this on as next pope? There must be one somewhere but it escapes me...What would Pope White Light have done? Died trying at the very least..oops, he did.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: keberoxu
Date: 18 May 18 - 02:57 PM

I don't know who AFP is but they have just
reported on a Vatican announcement.

"Every bishop in Chile"


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 08:03 PM

"I know you can't get past your position that any belief in God is a lie."

That is not my position at all. I don't know whether there's a God or not. The belief in God, subscribed to by billions, is not my concern. What is my concern is the passing on of that notion to children.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 18 - 07:21 PM

I know you can't get past your position that any belief in God is a lie. But not everyone shares your belief, and you see that as delusional.

( And I'm using "belief" in the wider sense which I explained. That may be pedantic on my part. But using perphrasis to express it in different ways, as I have in some posts, just gets too complicated and artificial.)


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 07:09 PM

I'm an escaped Catholic, non-bitter, unharmed, Kevin. Catholicism is relatively benign when it comes to breaking free. Your granny and grandad might not like it and your mum and dad will never let it drop (believe me). But no-one is going to honour-kill you and there are plenty of people in society who are on your side, and ostracism won't really bother you much. I'm describing life in a liberal western country though, aren't I. Most Catholics live in far more straitened and illiberal circumstances, and so do billions of Muslims, for example.

If you tell an untruth to children, it doesn't matter whether you know you're telling a lie or not. Actually you really should know in any case, shouldn't you. The effect is the same and you shouldn't be using your ignorance as an excuse. It really doesn't take much by way of intellectual self-examination to realise that telling children that there is a God is a lie. I'm sorry that I can't get past this rather basic notion, and I'm a bit surprised that you don't appear to be able to see it.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 18 - 06:44 PM

A lie is when you say something you believe to be a lie. That's not what happens in school, at least it never should. I suspect it may sometimes happen in history lessons.

I get the impression that your primary objection to exposing children to religion is that it restricts their future freedom and potentially damages them.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:52 PM

"You seem to assume that having a Catholic education ensures that the children are going to grow up with a particular religious orientation. It doesn’t, as you know very well from your own experience."

So this is supposed to be some kind of justification for telling children lies? Phew, Kevin...are you sure...?


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:01 PM

You don't get to such a senior rank in an organization as Pell has done without having a lot of supporters. And if anything, climate change denial is even more vicious in Australia than it is in the US.

It would be interesting see what sort of religious garb they dress it up in.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:08 PM

You seem to assume that having a Catholic education ensures that the children are going to grow up with a particular religious orientation. It doesn’t, as you know very well from your own experience.

Most adults I know who are practising Catholics are likely to have dropped away at some stage in their adolescent and adult lives. Many of them never return to the Church, some do.

You say that "Children should be encouraged to be curious, to be critical, to question everything and be shown how to find evidence to find out what's really true. No child brought up that way would ever end up believing in God. " I'd challenge whether that is in fact true. When people get into religion for the first time as adults, my impression is that they are more likely to end up in some fundamentalist outfits, rather than in mainstream religion. That can have some undesirable results.

Many people who are obliged learn a musical instrument in childhood, or learn a language similarly are likely to abandon it as they grow into adulthood. However if at a later stage they want to get back into it, they start with an advantage. I see that kind of thing as extending freedom rather than reducing it.
..........
As for climate change denial, no doubt you get some Catholics who buy into it. The very word Catholics does rather imply we've got all sorts. But they are very much at odds with the consensus, backed up by the consistent voice of Pope Francis. I suspect there's maybe more of that in the States, consistent with the evident fact that there are an awful lot of climate change deniers in society over there.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:08 PM

Expressing it to your children isn't the same as telling your children that there is a God and obliging them to sit in classrooms under crucifixes. You may be doing the right thing, but that wrong thing is still widespread the world over, and Christianity isn't even its worst manifestation. The bottom line is that either you catch children early and firmly or you watch your religion die. No getting away from it.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:02 PM

Apart from the point that calling anyone at all "pro-abortion" is unfair, your overall point is skewed. I agree that there are many people in our democracies who are stupid enough to vote on a single issue (many brexit voters in this country voted solely on the basis of keeping foreigners out, for example, ignorant of the fact that their decision was going to wreck this country). But voting for a party that may be more liberal about abortion, because you support a woman's right to choose, could also mean that you are voting for a more liberal-minded party in general, a party that is more likely to resist pressure groups coming from business or religion and which may have a more humanitarian and egalitarian slant on things. If I were involved in an election in which abortion was a party issue, I can safely predict that I'd be voting for the party with the more liberal take on the issue. But it would be a cast-iron bet that that party's policies would chime with my general views far more closely than those of the other lot.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:00 PM

Interestingly, the anti-abortion movement in the U.S. Catholic Church is a lay movement. Priests don't usually get involved.

Priests don't usually talk about sex, either - but conservative lay Catholics have latched onto John Paul II's unrealistic "theology of the body" as a way to teach their kids not to do anything to embarrass the family.

Benedict and Francis have said very realistic things about sex, but the conservatives don't listen to them. They hear only John Paul II - and I have no respect at all for JPII.

Steve, I think only conservative Christians find a need to "reconcile religion with science." The rest of us see no conflict between faith and science. YOUR concept of God won't allow you to see that, and it's an interesting phenomenon. You have a fundamentalist concept of God, and you rightly reject that concept. But you cannot seem to understand that many people of faith have an understanding (or perception) of God that is radically different from your concept.

You and I see the same thing, or experience the same thing. I perceive the essence of that as divine, and you don't. That's fine with me, as long as you don't deny my perception or prevent me from expressing my perception - including expressing this to my children. My perception is no threat to your having a different perception. Both are OK.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:19 PM

Jack Campin says: Meanwhile, if somebody can tell me how there came to be a fraction of the Catholic church that promotes climate change denial, and where it's currently going, I'd like to know. It's a political force that has slipped under the radar of every news outlet I follow.

I'm sure we have some climate change deniers in the Catholic Church, Jack, but I don't think they're a significant force. What alarms me, is all the nice one-issue Catholics who cast their votes strictly on the candidate's position on the issue of abortion. Of course, there are one-issue pro-abortion people in the US, too. Both sides can see no importance in any issue other than abortion. It IS a significant issue, but certainly homelessness and mass incarceration and immigration are far more important and far more liable to change in the current age.

Since Roe v. Wade legalized abortion in the U.S. in 1973, not one U.S. President of either party has done anything that would affect the legality of abortion. Therefore, abortion should be a non-issue in national politics in the U.S. But far too many people cast their votes on this one non-issue.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:36 AM

Everything posted here is tedious, self-indulgent crap, Jack. Unless you don't think it is. Do what I do: neither read nor post to 97.268% of threads.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 18 - 08:55 AM

If you truly used reason to assess the existence or not of God, you'd dismiss the concept immediately.

Not true.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 May 18 - 06:38 AM

This generic waffling about religion is just tedious self-indulgent crap. Who the hell do you expect will be interested in reading it?

Meanwhile, if somebody can tell me how there came to be a fraction of the Catholic church that promotes climate change denial, and where it's currently going, I'd like to know. It's a political force that has slipped under the radar of every news outlet I follow.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:39 AM

Dealing with what you believe or take on trust when it comes to science, it isn't the same thing as religious belief. Consciously or unconsciously, you will be be weighing up your source, you'll be considering the reputation of the scientist or journal, asking yourself if there's an axe being ground or whether there's a bit of self-publicising going on. That's where the trust comes in. You will have used reason to assess your source of information. If you truly used reason to assess the existence or not of God, you'd dismiss the concept immediately.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:14 AM

That's the point, Joe (even though we don't agree on the point). What you believe (using tbe word in its sense of carrying a conviction that can't be shaken by lack of evidence or by contrary evidence) shouldn't impinge on anyone else. No-one should ever tell a child that there's a God. Children should be encouraged to be curious, to be critical, to question everything and be shown how to find evidence to find out what's really true. No child brought up that way would ever end up believing in God. So religions can't allow that to happen. That's sad and that's what I've got against religion. I'm keeping all the art, the music and the wonderful basilicas, by the way. They're mine as much as yours.

Most believers don't have to spend their energy trying to reconcile science with religion. For most people the two can run on parallel lines. After all, everyday science is a practical matter, even for researchers. The philosophy can wait 'til later. We're all allowed our own particular daily doses of irrationality, as I've said many times. We're not Vulcans. The problem comes when religion, realising that you can't actually deny science, tries to bend it a little in order to fit the belief system. Hence we get ridiculous attempts, for example, to invent a divine force that "kick-starts" evolution or which guides the process unseen or which has some hand in "creating" things. Science can sail by unconcerned by that, but the ensuing pseudo-science fed to the gullible is damaging.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:45 AM

Steve,
The problem with you believers is that you find it very, very hard to reconcile religious belief with science,

Who told you that? It is not my experience at all.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:33 AM

Steve Shaw says: If I've said it once I've said it a hundred times: I don't care what people choose to believe.

And often, he adds: unless they teach it to their kids.


I'm puzzled about Steve's objecting to people "believing" science. No, you can't go on "belief" when doing scientific research. But research by competent scientists is credible, which is another word for believable, and most people other than mindless ideologues do trust (and believe) in the work of credible scientists - without need to do the research for themselves.

In a court of law, jury members believe (or do not believe) a witness to be credible/believable.

We can't do all the research on everything ourselves. We have to trust/believe somebody, or we'd never make any progress in this world. I do hope, however, that we base our belief on credible evidence.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 18 - 08:41 PM

If you don’t care what people believe why do you keep posting about it?

As I said, we have very different understandings of what the word "believe" means. I think it covers a much wider range than you do. Both absolute and provisional beliefs, objective and subjective beliefs, false beliefs, and true beliefs.

I'm confused by "there is no room for belief in the scientific method". Do you mean there can be no room for a conviction of certainty, and therefore that everything is in principle provisional? On the basis that the scientific method is traditionally founded on a permanent readiness to doubt - you come up with a hypothesis, and set about trying to disprove it.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 18 - 07:14 PM

"I'm not trying to compel anyone to believe anything, Steve. I think you are. The thing is, it can't really be done."

And what precisely am I trying to "compel" anyone to believe? If I've said it once I've said it a hundred times: I don't care what people choose to believe. The problem with you believers is that you find it very, very hard to reconcile religious belief with science, therefore you try to marry the two by pretending that science is a belief system. Well it isn't. In fact, it's the very opposite. There is no room for belief in the scientific method. None whatever.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 18 - 06:59 PM


I don't need to "believe" things that have mountains of evidence to support them


No, you don't "need" to believe - it’s just that you do believe those things, and those mountains of evidence are the basis for that belief.

We clearly disagree in what we understand the word belief to mean, Steve. My understanding is that it merely means that we see something being true. That is irrespective of whether we have extremely strong evidence for its truth, or indeed its truth is beyond reasonable doubt, or whether we have the flimsiest evidence, or whether indeed it is totally delusional. In all cases it is a belief, because we believe it. The one word covers all of them.

I'm not trying to compel anyone to believe anything, Steve. I think you are. The thing is, it can't really be done.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 May 18 - 01:12 PM

Steve Shaw says: As I've made it clear that I don't know whether there's a God or not (oh for such honesty from believers!), I'm simply giving my opinions.

Up above, Joe Offer says: "And to counter Steve, I would suggest that what his dad and I see is the same thing he [Steve] sees, but we perceive a divine essence within that causes us to ponder in awe. I don't know that it matters whether that essence is reality or perception, and I don't know why Steve feels it is so important to deny that perception."

But Steve attempts to redefine what Joe has consistently said about God, and make Joe's perception of God into something else: So you attempt to harmonise it with your faith by suggesting (without a shred of evidence to support you) that God runs evolution or has inputs, such as "creating" human beings? Can't you see how silly and facile that is? It's not me taking a narrow view, Joe, it's you narrowing down and degrading the work of thousands of evolutionary biologists who, with respect, know a lot more about the science than you do... When I say that the essence of evolution is that there can be no conscious directional driving force or "intelligence" of any kind behind it, I'm not shutting you out. I'm just doing the science.

I don't have a simplistic view of God as some guy who goes around throwing the switches so all the trains run on time. I believe that everything that surrounds me follows the laws of science and logic exactly. But within all that surrounds me and all that is within me, I perceive something infinite that is worthy of awe and wonder - and that is what I perceive as God. The doctrines and rituals and myth help people to celebrate and recognize that essence that is worthy of awe and wonder, but those are things that I don't hold tightly to. I also recognize that the general concept of God is an anthropomorphism, but humans tend to think anthropomorpically - and maybe that's ok.

For me, while the laws of science and logic are true, they fail to explore the depth of meaning of that which surrounds us. For that, I have to go into the realm of poetry and myth and ritual and perhaps mysticism or nirvana.

Literalists cannot deal with poetry and myth and mysticism, so they find them untrue or worthless and find ritual to be empty. Steve seems to be more-or-less a literalist. Fundamentalist Christians and generally literalists, too. Steve's intelligence and education will not allow him to accept a literalist God, so he rightly rejects that God - and I applaud him for that.

Note again what I said: "[I] perceive a divine essence within that causes [me] to ponder in awe. I don't know that it matters whether that essence is reality or perception." But whether it is reality or perception, exploring that essence has been of great and deep value to me all my life.

Steve can use his Scientific Method to analyze love, too - and his analysis would be correct. To really appreciate love, one has to go into the realm of poetry and beyond. Same with death, or life. These things are mysteries that we can never fully define or explain - but nonetheless they are worthy of lifelong exploration, using the Scientific Method to its fullest extent, but also going deeper and farther than the Scientific Method will allow.

And that exploration will not produce absolute answers - it will produce only perceptions, but those perceptions are of infinite value.

-Joe Offer-

P.S. And yeah, I do acknowledge Steve to be a fluffy bunny (his words). Maybe that's why I enjoy debating with him.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Donuel
Date: 15 May 18 - 01:00 PM

Have you ever heard someone in the House of Commons being argumentative for the sake of argument and lose their thread of thought to the point they can not even agree with actual supporters.

There is truth, strategy and honor in being able to recant.
Some of you won't acknowledge a reasonable point for fear it would diminish your ego.

In America we say people who can't be honest with themselves as "he couldn't say shit if he had a mouthful".

A little flexibility won't make you younger but it could make you wiser, and help you avoid being a shithead.

Admittedly arguing is fun but the only people keeping score are in your imagination. If you want it to count, run for office.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 18 - 12:28 PM

I don't need to "believe" things that have mountains of evidence to support them. I hold the view that it is overwhelmingly likely (not certain), on grounds of evidence and reason, that the theory of evolution explains all the beauty, diversity and complexity of life on Earth. You believe in God. That's a notion that has no evidence to support it (a matter discussed here ad nauseam and which I will not revisit) and which can't be arrived at via the use of reason. In this context, and in the context of science, that's how I'm using the term "belief." You hold your belief with such unshakeable conviction and certainty, despite the absence of evidence, that you see no harm in obliging small children to be made to believe it too. After all, that's how you came to believe it too, in all probability. That's highly irrational. And not very nice.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 18 - 11:59 AM

I fully believe Joe Offer sincerely tried to make a difference.
I'm sure you guys see that too.
What more do you want,
a pound of flesh?


Hear, hear! Donuel.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 18 - 11:31 AM

I believe that evolution explains the diversity and origins of species.
Don't you Steve?
Beliefs are held without reason or evidence, usually with a degree of unshiftable conviction or certainty.

Not true. There is much evidence for evolution, and I find it convincing but I do not feel and unshiftable conviction.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 18 - 10:25 AM

They are my opinions, not my beliefs. Beliefs are held without reason or evidence, usually with a degree of unshiftable conviction or certainty. I'll justify my opinions to you any time you like. When I do, you may think I'm wrong, and I may be wrong, but that means there were flaws in my reasoning or gaps in the evidence that I underestimated. But beliefs, never. In this context the word has a specific meaning. You believe in God despite the fact that there's no evidence and that you've abandoned reason. It's no different to believing in Santa or the tooth fairy or your guardian angel. Objectively, it's just as childish. I have no beliefs that I can try to impose or not impose, but I do have opinions that I put forward for anyone to consider if they want to. I respect opinions opposing mine, as long as they're measured and free from hidden motives. Can't say much fairer than that.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 18 - 09:41 AM

If you believe something that is a belief. That's how the English language works. Nothing to do with how well founded that belief maybe. The one word fits all sizes.

You sincerely believe, I am sure, that the responses you evoke are assumed, and that those responding in a way you describe as defensive do not actually experience what you write as attacking. I believe that is a mistaken belief on your part.

There is no difficulty in any of us being open about our beliefs without trying to impose them on others. Try it.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 May 18 - 09:06 AM

Some of the people Jim doesn't believe exist.

Red Letter Christians


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 18 - 05:07 AM

"Believe what you like, but keep it to yourself". But you don't keep it to yourself, do you,, Steve. The very word you use for responses to what you write, "defensiveness" implies an attacker.

No it doesn't. Defensiveness in this topic implies confected righteous indignation, intended to attack criticism and blame the critic in place of honestly taking on their arguments.

What beliefs am I "not keeping to myself," Kevin? Now in this thread we've already had the routinely trotted-out insult that "I believe in science." I note that you didn't pick up on that canard. Concepts elicited by science are not "beliefs" as they are founded on evidence and reason. As I've made it clear that I don't know whether there's a God or not (oh for such honesty from believers!), I'm simply giving my opinions. I'd suggest that those opinions are based on reason, if not evidence (as there isn't any, but concepts that break every law of nature can be dealt with by reason alone). As for being free and open about religious belief, I challenge you to tell me how you can do that without giving succour to those of potentially like mind, your kids for example, helping to cement their own copycat beliefs in the face of a world full of doubt. In other words, proselytising. If as an adult I declared freely and openly that I believed in fairies at the bottom of my garden, I'd be ridiculed. I'd be best keeping that belief to myself, though if I did advertise it to the world at least I wouldn't doing anyone else any harm, and there's the rub.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 18 - 08:12 PM

"Believe what you like, but keep it to yourself". But you don't keep it to yourself, do you,, Steve. The very word you use for responses to what you write, "defensiveness" implies an attacker.

My point in asking you to give a scientific basis for your concern was that such things as concerns do not fit too readily into the world view you present. They are oriented to a future that isn't as yet there.

I don't in fact feel comfortable with that adage, "believe what you will, but keep it. To yourself". My preference would be, "Be open about what you believe, but without feeling any need to seek to impose those beliefs on others."


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 18 - 07:59 PM

Putting points to you honestly and directly is hardly "heavy artillery," and the fact that you see it that way is testament to your own defensiveness. Even Joe knows what a fluffy bunny I really am, though it'll be two or three threads down the line before he'll ever admit it again...


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 May 18 - 07:54 PM

Agreed, Donuel, however I suspect that some of us see it
and some of us see I don't know what else.

Defensiveness is a most remarkable presentation,
and I say that speaking from both sides --
I have been blindly defensive myself, and will be, I fear, again.
It's hard to let that down once it becomes second nature.

And I agree with what you, Donuel, and Joe, and Jack Campin were saying
about progressives within certain denominations.
Seems like there ought to be a way of considering that history
without anybody bringing on the heavy artillery.


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Donuel
Date: 14 May 18 - 07:30 PM

I fully believe Joe Offer sincerely tried to make a difference.
I'm sure you guys see that too.
What more do you want,
a pound of flesh?


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 18 - 07:09 PM

Nighty night! :-)


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 May 18 - 06:50 PM

. . . none so blind . . .


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Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 18 - 06:47 PM

You are incredibly judgemental and incredibly wrong. Whatever else my faults, impatience is not one of them. I'm throwing you challenges from a very calm and measured position, but you're responding defensively. I can't understand why you feel so insecure about your faith. You should be shrugging off people like me with ease. But you can't. Odd.


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