Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 18 - 01:48 PM

"NOWHERE NEAR in the same league of threats facing humanity and the planet as climate change."
Can't disagree with that but have you ever thought that the nasty things happening to our planet might be God taking it out on the baddie who misbehave in the way the priests did?
Food for thought !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 May 18 - 09:54 AM

Child sexual abuse may be a serious matter but it is NOWHERE NEAR in the same league of threats facing humanity and the planet as climate change.

I've just spent a bit of time googling for the Catholic response to climate change - and overwhelmingly the institution has been on the same side as the scientific consensus. Nor is it all talk. This is a very significant move:

https://www.greengrants.org/2017/10/26/church/

I have close to zero interest in rants from all-mouth-and-no-trousers keyboard warriors with a thing about clerical perversions. But if somebody like Pell is trying to make Trump effectively Pope with dogma written by Breitbart, that MATTERS.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 May 18 - 09:30 AM

Sorry, my last post was to the wrong thread !!

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 May 18 - 09:19 AM

I'm not 100% sure of this Jim, but I would suggest his words may be in contravention of the "Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006"

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 18 - 08:56 AM

Another Northern Irish clergyman has been accused of Clerical abuse
This really isn't going to go away until the Vatican deals with it openly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 18 - 07:12 AM

Whatever the Referendum result this week, the chuch will be considerably weaker thanks to the scurrilous behaviour of the Bishops in co-operating with the "No" fundamentalists - their behaviour has also divided Ireland   
When/if the dust dies down on this one (if it does - the fundamentalists are threatening to challenge the referendum result in court if it doesn't go their way) the church has another fight on its hands regarding its demanding baptismal Certificates before enrolling pupils in the 90 plus percent of schools under their control

Just read that Adelaide's Bishop Wilson is facing a jail sentence for covering up sex abuse (he told the victims to say 10 Hail Marys and forget it happened)
This really is an indication of the urgent need of a tree surgeon
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Donuel
Date: 22 May 18 - 04:37 PM

A go along to get along decision can be made by members of any organization. This eventually becomes what we call culture, no matter how despicable it may become. You know, like Congress.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: mg
Date: 22 May 18 - 04:14 PM

I think there are some things to evil to joke about period. And the time is already here that people are doing evil things with AI and robots etc. I also think on public websites there are lines that should not be crossed and this did.

The rot in the church is not only at the trunk and the tops..it is in the roots themselves. We need to go back to the original, hopefully cleaner version. This happened with the Essenes I believe, and the churches founded in England and France by Joseph of Arimathea and Mary Magdalene. Anything from Constantine on is suspect and incorporated all sorts of Roman practices, assumptions etc. Of course, we killed the healthier aspects of Catholicism by killing Cathars, forcing the English church to adopt Roman ways and supervision etc. Big nasty mess.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 May 18 - 03:34 PM

No question that it goes "high up the tree," Jim. I have studied this scandal for over 30 years, and I have been highly critical of those who were guilty. But part of understanding, is understanding the organizational structure. Put the blame where blame is due. One huge factor in all this was John Paul II. Naming him a saint was a travesty.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 18 - 02:54 PM

You still appear not to have grasped how high up the tree this goes Joe
If the revelations of a cover up by the Vatican shown in the documentary 'Mea Maxima Culpa' didn't ring alarm bells, the Pope abusing the Barros whistle blowers should have
This is no longer a case of a "few bad apples" or a diocesan matter - the rot now goes from top to bottom
No matter how the Referendum goes on Friday, thanks to the scurrilous way the Bishops have sided with the very worst of the "No" campaigners will have left bitterly divided congregations
I have no time for the church, but I did not want to see this happen
Stupid - stupid - stupid !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 May 18 - 01:16 PM

(moderate grin)
Yeah, but do you understand what I mean?

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 May 18 - 12:27 PM

"The U.S. government is not responsible for most crime within its borders."

I would hope it's not responsible for any crime.

Sorry Joe, couldn't resist!

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 May 18 - 12:12 PM

Some want to blame Rome for the entire scandal, but I don't think they understand the structure of the Catholic Church, which is a loose federation of autonomous dioceses.
The U.S. government is not responsible for most crime within its borders. That is the function of the states. The organization of the Catholic Church is similar. Ratzinger had to move mountains to get any central control of the situation, and that control is still limited.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 May 18 - 12:04 PM

Some Catholic bishops did a good job of dealing with the child abuse scandal from the very beginning. Many were mediocre at the beginning but adopted good measures as pressure against them got strong. And a few were downright criminal in their conduct and deserve to be in prison.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 May 18 - 10:07 AM

There have numerous occasion when posters have claimed that the various churches have done much to curtail clerical abuse. Some would argue they have never done enough, the article attached links to one such.

Wilson

He will be sentenced next month.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Donuel
Date: 22 May 18 - 09:50 AM

AI robots to assume the crimes by priests while clergy go to prison, in order to maintain the legacy of child rape, is a different take on a cynical joke by Jeff Jeffries. Weird but cutting humor imo


The absurd can often highlight what people numbly come to accept as a new normal and see with new eyes. As a cartoon in the New Yorker Magazine may do.


Joe should know and does know why I sometimes use the absurd.


I assume most but not all people can tell the difference between an editorial cartoon and an expose'.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 18 - 08:15 AM

Another jobby just hit the fan
A care home run by Nuns in Northern Ireland has been found to have arranged illegal and forced adoptions
Northern Ireland has yet to enquire on clerical sexual abuse - this should do the trick
Jim Caaarroll

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Donuel
Date: 21 May 18 - 01:41 PM

Climate deniers never die
They just watch the oceans rise

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 18 - 01:03 PM

You got it Iains
The Burren was one of the sites of a national campaign against the division of land in the latter half of the 19th century
In the 1880s The British Government instructed the breakup of the private estates belonging to absentee English landlords, but, true to form, they allocated them to wealthy farmers rather than those in need
A national campaign of cattle rustling was embarked on by local small-farmers who would drive the cattle through the towns, shouting and blowing horns - they would then be driven onto large open spaces like The Burren, leaving the owner to find and reclaim them
The campaign was officially called off in 1911, but persisted in Clare, Tipperary and parts of Galway up to Independence, and in North and East Clare, beyond that
This campaign produced a number of songs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: keberoxu
Date: 21 May 18 - 12:44 PM

Shades of the Swiss alps, Iains.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Iains
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:20 AM

" "boolying in the Burren" A form of transhumance formerly practised in many countries. It would normally refer to moving stock to higher pastures in the summer e.g.alpine pastures. These pastures would have dwellings associated with them known as a hafod in Wales, a Shieling in Scotland. In Ireland transhumance pastures were known as Booley, Boley, Bouley, Buaile and Boola. These names survive in many place names such as Buaile h'Anraoi in Kilcommon parish, Erris, North Mayo, where the landscape still clearly shows the layout of the rundale system of agriculture. The livestock, usually cattle, was moved from a permanent lowland village to summer pastures in the mountains. The appearance of "Summerhill" (Irish: Cnoc an tSamhraidh) in many placenames also bears witness to the practice. Mentioned in the Brehon Laws, booleying would have dated back to the Early Medieval period or even earlier. The practice was widespread in the west of Ireland up until the time of the Second World War.
The Burren was the reverse process, where cattle were wintered on the Burren. In most places even a traditional sward would be heavily poached by cattle outwintering. The far better drainage of the limestone Burren would be far more resistant to poaching and this enabled outwintering to occur.


https://roaringwaterjournal.com/tag/booleying/

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: mg
Date: 20 May 18 - 09:00 PM

I can not believe what I am reading here. Do you mean this? If you do moderators need to be involved.

---

Yes, it was a weird comment, mg. We usually don't moderate for content. Our job is just to keep the peace.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Donuel
Date: 20 May 18 - 07:41 PM

One way to take the rape factor out of the hands of priests is to let them marry.

Another is to use AI and robotics to take the rape factor away from people is to build and maintain sexual predator robots who will rape children automatically instead of religious people and policies ;^/

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 18 - 07:09 AM

"Maybe not the greatest for your garden, though..."
Surprisingly, though, it produces the most desirable cattle in the country
I attended a lecture at our local history group and amused the audience my mispronouncing the title and told them I thought it was about dancing - the title was "boolying in the Burren" - see if you can find it on Wiki
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 18 - 05:44 AM

"That's the problem with these gods who gave us all these beautiful things - they never offer to roll their sleeves up to help out"

Heheh, that's the line of the week is that. Must remember to use it next time I'm having a God-related ding-dong with Joe... :-)

Jim, the Burren is one of the most exciting botanical locations in these islands. That thin soil on limestone, coupled with mild Atlantic winters, is the key. Maybe not the greatest for your garden, though...

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 18 - 04:28 AM

" (I've got half an acre to mow and my garden won't admit ride-ons) "
That's the problem with these gods who gave us all these beautiful things - they never offer to roll their sleeves up to help out
We (accidentally) have an acre of bad soil, rushes and now ****** moss which we refuse let become an unsightly mess
We are a mile from the Atlantic so the salty air restricts us in what we grow, we live on a coastal plain so we have to drive 20 miles to Ennis to find out what time of year it is (no real trees), and the fact that we live over the far fringes of The Burren means that the few trees we have managed to coax into taking root in the foot or so of soil before we hit limestone look as if they's just staggered back pissed from one or the local sessions - I have to prop up two conifers some time as soon as I can rely on the weather not to wash them own again.
"All god's gifts around us" is a breach of the trades desription act around here
On the other hand, I understand from what somebody said last night, that shortly I will be able so sit in the garden and watch and listen to the skylark rise and fall in the next field, we are starting to be woken up early in the morning by the ***** cuckoos, the swallows are back with a vengeance with their aerobatic displays and the sheltered spot outside our back door is crawling with robins, finches, tits, stone-chats (now and then) and collard doves (and unfortunately the occasional sparrow hawk) all clambering to be fed
Tonight we'll settle down to Casualty to the sounds of the Herons clacking their way home over the road
My heart was nearly broken a few months ago when a lady living in the town next to our paper shop asked me not to feed the two beautiful white Peace Doves because they shit all over her doorstep - she asked me did want them, but we couldn't work out a way to get them home !
You win some - you lose some
Wouldn't have it any other way
Jim

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 08:02 PM

Bloody cracking story there, Jim. I got a bit poorly last week and I'd let my grass grow out of the chimbley pots. Spent all day today getting it back down (I've got half an acre to mow and my garden won't admit ride-ons) and even then I had to cut a whole season's growth down under my apple trees. I finished at ten to eight this evening, utterly shagged out. Spotted a shaft of warm evening sunlight on me patio, so poured meself a glass of Colombard and sat in the last bit of sun for fifteen minutes on me tod. Every bird for miles was singing its heart out and I just shut me eyes for a few minutes...

There was no God though. Everything I saw and heard in that fifteen minutes was sublimely ordinary and explicable. No need for Godly add-ons. Why can't we all just accept that the most beautiful thing about everything is just how ordinary it is?

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 18 - 07:34 PM

It's a pity this has to be about religion rather than the way it has been abused and manipulated by the people who invented it
Strip away the bogeymen, sky fairies and men in frocks and you have a half decent philosophy regarding how we should react to one another as human beings
If those claiming to be Christians lived up to their claim, this planet would be an infinitely more friendly and interesting place to inhabit.
Unfortunately.....

I concur totally with Tom Munnelly's description of one of Ireland's great traditional singers, Tom Lenihan - a man we recorded annually from 1974, when we first met him, to his death in January, 1990.
"Tom was a deeply religious Roman Catholic who practiced his faith without ostentation or cant. In all the years of working with him I never heard him say an unkind word about anybody. In making such a declaration I am aware that such claims can often be mere well-meaning clichés, but I wish to emphasise that I record it here as an objective statement of fact.
This lack of complication in Tom’s faith was not an indication of simplicity of mind. The simplicity Tom acquired over the years was that of wisdom and the ability to discard the peripheral while retaining core values. This was illustrated for me one day when I called to keep a recording appointment I had made with him the week before. In the meantime I had discovered that a pilgrimage to the Marian shrine at Knock for the over-sixties had been arranged on the same day. Knowing of Tom’s devoutness, I more than half expected him to be gone when I called up to Knockbrack. Sure enough, there was nobody about the house when I arrived. I was walking back to my car when I was hailed from a nearby field. Tom was in there thinning cabbages. I said: ‘I heard about the pilgrimage and I thought you’d be gone with them.’
‘Why would I travel a hundred miles? If I want God, isn’t He here with me in the garden?’
I couldn’t argue with that."

Me neither
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: mg
Date: 18 May 18 - 03:46 PM

every bishop in chile signed mass resignation letter. pope should sign one too because he was part of this mess and abused the victims. He has admitted this. he is good in some arenas but he is beyond horrible in the abuse situation. not just failure to do much of anything...but obstructing people who are trying to fix things. Not listening to people who were essentially rioting in a church in Chile. Not listening in Australia..Guam is a mess... Supposedly he publicly kissed the bishop who people are so upset about..Barros. Is there anyone in the church who has the strength to take this on as next pope? There must be one somewhere but it escapes me...What would Pope White Light have done? Died trying at the very least..oops, he did.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: keberoxu
Date: 18 May 18 - 02:57 PM

I don't know who AFP is but they have just
reported on a Vatican announcement.

"Every bishop in Chile"

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 08:03 PM

"I know you can't get past your position that any belief in God is a lie."

That is not my position at all. I don't know whether there's a God or not. The belief in God, subscribed to by billions, is not my concern. What is my concern is the passing on of that notion to children.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 18 - 07:21 PM

I know you can't get past your position that any belief in God is a lie. But not everyone shares your belief, and you see that as delusional.

( And I'm using "belief" in the wider sense which I explained. That may be pedantic on my part. But using perphrasis to express it in different ways, as I have in some posts, just gets too complicated and artificial.)

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 07:09 PM

I'm an escaped Catholic, non-bitter, unharmed, Kevin. Catholicism is relatively benign when it comes to breaking free. Your granny and grandad might not like it and your mum and dad will never let it drop (believe me). But no-one is going to honour-kill you and there are plenty of people in society who are on your side, and ostracism won't really bother you much. I'm describing life in a liberal western country though, aren't I. Most Catholics live in far more straitened and illiberal circumstances, and so do billions of Muslims, for example.

If you tell an untruth to children, it doesn't matter whether you know you're telling a lie or not. Actually you really should know in any case, shouldn't you. The effect is the same and you shouldn't be using your ignorance as an excuse. It really doesn't take much by way of intellectual self-examination to realise that telling children that there is a God is a lie. I'm sorry that I can't get past this rather basic notion, and I'm a bit surprised that you don't appear to be able to see it.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 18 - 06:44 PM

A lie is when you say something you believe to be a lie. That's not what happens in school, at least it never should. I suspect it may sometimes happen in history lessons.

I get the impression that your primary objection to exposing children to religion is that it restricts their future freedom and potentially damages them.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:52 PM

"You seem to assume that having a Catholic education ensures that the children are going to grow up with a particular religious orientation. It doesn’t, as you know very well from your own experience."

So this is supposed to be some kind of justification for telling children lies? Phew, Kevin...are you sure...?

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:01 PM

You don't get to such a senior rank in an organization as Pell has done without having a lot of supporters. And if anything, climate change denial is even more vicious in Australia than it is in the US.

It would be interesting see what sort of religious garb they dress it up in.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:08 PM

You seem to assume that having a Catholic education ensures that the children are going to grow up with a particular religious orientation. It doesn’t, as you know very well from your own experience.

Most adults I know who are practising Catholics are likely to have dropped away at some stage in their adolescent and adult lives. Many of them never return to the Church, some do.

You say that "Children should be encouraged to be curious, to be critical, to question everything and be shown how to find evidence to find out what's really true. No child brought up that way would ever end up believing in God. " I'd challenge whether that is in fact true. When people get into religion for the first time as adults, my impression is that they are more likely to end up in some fundamentalist outfits, rather than in mainstream religion. That can have some undesirable results.

Many people who are obliged learn a musical instrument in childhood, or learn a language similarly are likely to abandon it as they grow into adulthood. However if at a later stage they want to get back into it, they start with an advantage. I see that kind of thing as extending freedom rather than reducing it.
..........
As for climate change denial, no doubt you get some Catholics who buy into it. The very word Catholics does rather imply we've got all sorts. But they are very much at odds with the consensus, backed up by the consistent voice of Pope Francis. I suspect there's maybe more of that in the States, consistent with the evident fact that there are an awful lot of climate change deniers in society over there.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:08 PM

Expressing it to your children isn't the same as telling your children that there is a God and obliging them to sit in classrooms under crucifixes. You may be doing the right thing, but that wrong thing is still widespread the world over, and Christianity isn't even its worst manifestation. The bottom line is that either you catch children early and firmly or you watch your religion die. No getting away from it.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:02 PM

Apart from the point that calling anyone at all "pro-abortion" is unfair, your overall point is skewed. I agree that there are many people in our democracies who are stupid enough to vote on a single issue (many brexit voters in this country voted solely on the basis of keeping foreigners out, for example, ignorant of the fact that their decision was going to wreck this country). But voting for a party that may be more liberal about abortion, because you support a woman's right to choose, could also mean that you are voting for a more liberal-minded party in general, a party that is more likely to resist pressure groups coming from business or religion and which may have a more humanitarian and egalitarian slant on things. If I were involved in an election in which abortion was a party issue, I can safely predict that I'd be voting for the party with the more liberal take on the issue. But it would be a cast-iron bet that that party's policies would chime with my general views far more closely than those of the other lot.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:00 PM

Interestingly, the anti-abortion movement in the U.S. Catholic Church is a lay movement. Priests don't usually get involved.

Priests don't usually talk about sex, either - but conservative lay Catholics have latched onto John Paul II's unrealistic "theology of the body" as a way to teach their kids not to do anything to embarrass the family.

Benedict and Francis have said very realistic things about sex, but the conservatives don't listen to them. They hear only John Paul II - and I have no respect at all for JPII.

Steve, I think only conservative Christians find a need to "reconcile religion with science." The rest of us see no conflict between faith and science. YOUR concept of God won't allow you to see that, and it's an interesting phenomenon. You have a fundamentalist concept of God, and you rightly reject that concept. But you cannot seem to understand that many people of faith have an understanding (or perception) of God that is radically different from your concept.

You and I see the same thing, or experience the same thing. I perceive the essence of that as divine, and you don't. That's fine with me, as long as you don't deny my perception or prevent me from expressing my perception - including expressing this to my children. My perception is no threat to your having a different perception. Both are OK.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:19 PM

Jack Campin says: Meanwhile, if somebody can tell me how there came to be a fraction of the Catholic church that promotes climate change denial, and where it's currently going, I'd like to know. It's a political force that has slipped under the radar of every news outlet I follow.

I'm sure we have some climate change deniers in the Catholic Church, Jack, but I don't think they're a significant force. What alarms me, is all the nice one-issue Catholics who cast their votes strictly on the candidate's position on the issue of abortion. Of course, there are one-issue pro-abortion people in the US, too. Both sides can see no importance in any issue other than abortion. It IS a significant issue, but certainly homelessness and mass incarceration and immigration are far more important and far more liable to change in the current age.

Since Roe v. Wade legalized abortion in the U.S. in 1973, not one U.S. President of either party has done anything that would affect the legality of abortion. Therefore, abortion should be a non-issue in national politics in the U.S. But far too many people cast their votes on this one non-issue.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:36 AM

Everything posted here is tedious, self-indulgent crap, Jack. Unless you don't think it is. Do what I do: neither read nor post to 97.268% of threads.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 18 - 08:55 AM

If you truly used reason to assess the existence or not of God, you'd dismiss the concept immediately.

Not true.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 May 18 - 06:38 AM

This generic waffling about religion is just tedious self-indulgent crap. Who the hell do you expect will be interested in reading it?

Meanwhile, if somebody can tell me how there came to be a fraction of the Catholic church that promotes climate change denial, and where it's currently going, I'd like to know. It's a political force that has slipped under the radar of every news outlet I follow.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:39 AM

Dealing with what you believe or take on trust when it comes to science, it isn't the same thing as religious belief. Consciously or unconsciously, you will be be weighing up your source, you'll be considering the reputation of the scientist or journal, asking yourself if there's an axe being ground or whether there's a bit of self-publicising going on. That's where the trust comes in. You will have used reason to assess your source of information. If you truly used reason to assess the existence or not of God, you'd dismiss the concept immediately.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:14 AM

That's the point, Joe (even though we don't agree on the point). What you believe (using tbe word in its sense of carrying a conviction that can't be shaken by lack of evidence or by contrary evidence) shouldn't impinge on anyone else. No-one should ever tell a child that there's a God. Children should be encouraged to be curious, to be critical, to question everything and be shown how to find evidence to find out what's really true. No child brought up that way would ever end up believing in God. So religions can't allow that to happen. That's sad and that's what I've got against religion. I'm keeping all the art, the music and the wonderful basilicas, by the way. They're mine as much as yours.

Most believers don't have to spend their energy trying to reconcile science with religion. For most people the two can run on parallel lines. After all, everyday science is a practical matter, even for researchers. The philosophy can wait 'til later. We're all allowed our own particular daily doses of irrationality, as I've said many times. We're not Vulcans. The problem comes when religion, realising that you can't actually deny science, tries to bend it a little in order to fit the belief system. Hence we get ridiculous attempts, for example, to invent a divine force that "kick-starts" evolution or which guides the process unseen or which has some hand in "creating" things. Science can sail by unconcerned by that, but the ensuing pseudo-science fed to the gullible is damaging.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:45 AM

Steve,
The problem with you believers is that you find it very, very hard to reconcile religious belief with science,

Who told you that? It is not my experience at all.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:33 AM

Steve Shaw says: If I've said it once I've said it a hundred times: I don't care what people choose to believe.

And often, he adds: unless they teach it to their kids.


I'm puzzled about Steve's objecting to people "believing" science. No, you can't go on "belief" when doing scientific research. But research by competent scientists is credible, which is another word for believable, and most people other than mindless ideologues do trust (and believe) in the work of credible scientists - without need to do the research for themselves.

In a court of law, jury members believe (or do not believe) a witness to be credible/believable.

We can't do all the research on everything ourselves. We have to trust/believe somebody, or we'd never make any progress in this world. I do hope, however, that we base our belief on credible evidence.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 18 - 08:41 PM

If you don’t care what people believe why do you keep posting about it?

As I said, we have very different understandings of what the word "believe" means. I think it covers a much wider range than you do. Both absolute and provisional beliefs, objective and subjective beliefs, false beliefs, and true beliefs.

I'm confused by "there is no room for belief in the scientific method". Do you mean there can be no room for a conviction of certainty, and therefore that everything is in principle provisional? On the basis that the scientific method is traditionally founded on a permanent readiness to doubt - you come up with a hypothesis, and set about trying to disprove it.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 18 - 07:14 PM

"I'm not trying to compel anyone to believe anything, Steve. I think you are. The thing is, it can't really be done."

And what precisely am I trying to "compel" anyone to believe? If I've said it once I've said it a hundred times: I don't care what people choose to believe. The problem with you believers is that you find it very, very hard to reconcile religious belief with science, therefore you try to marry the two by pretending that science is a belief system. Well it isn't. In fact, it's the very opposite. There is no room for belief in the scientific method. None whatever.