Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial

Subject: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 May 18 - 06:11 AM

I didn't want to start a new thread for this, but after finding four successive threads where it would have been appropriate had all been closed, I gave up.

This is a bizarre link. Apart from "evil shits have to stick together" I can't see any obvious logic.

Trump's EPA chief and Cardinal Pell

(If there IS still an open thread this can be moved to, please do so. Proliferating new threads all the time is ridiculous).

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 18 - 06:37 AM

Should have posted this interesting topic down on the ground floor
Jack
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 May 18 - 06:55 AM

I'm using a phone, where I can't see all the relevant bits of the Mudcat user interface at the same time. I'm sure someone will move it (or better, reopen an appropriate thread and move it there).

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 18 - 06:57 AM

Climate denial hasn't actually been defined as heretical by Pope Francis, but pretty near.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 18 - 09:44 AM

Kevin .... isn't "the sun shine on the righteous" the apt phrase

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 11 May 18 - 09:56 AM

An observation and a question:

As there seems to be no connection in any way to music (the observation). What on earth is this thread doing above the line? (the question).

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 May 18 - 11:54 AM

And just to simplify understanding of what is being discussed, I think the term generally used is "Climate Change Denial" (or even man-made climate change denial).
I don't think anyone is really denying the concept of 'climate'.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Iains
Date: 11 May 18 - 12:05 PM

The climate has always been changing.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: mg
Date: 11 May 18 - 12:11 PM

Pell is one of the two creepiest prelates in the church. The other lives in new york. It is not news that pell was accused of abuse. This was known for a long time. He also was abusive to survivors. Pope can not claim ignorance because i personally wrote him and said wtf when he brought creep to vatican. Australianns were quite outraged.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 May 18 - 01:03 PM

Pell is apparently a pretty smart guy, and I think he did a decent job fixing Vatican finances. Time and the courts will tell about the child abuse allegations. I expect he will be found guilty.
The Trump Administration doesn't get along with Pope Francis. Did you notice that? So, Trump's gang does its best to sidle up to Catholic leaders who are Thorns in the Side of Frankie da Pope. Joe

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: keberoxu
Date: 11 May 18 - 01:09 PM

E pur si muove?

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 May 18 - 01:17 PM

Yes, I'm sure you can find some Catholics who will deny climate change, some who don't know or care, and some who will agree with the Pope that it is a serious problem.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: PHJim
Date: 11 May 18 - 03:42 PM

You will also find some who feel that the twin towers and the moon landing and school shootings were all faked. Also the Earth is flat, vaccines cause autism and Elvis is still alive and living in Tweed, Ontario.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 May 18 - 03:50 PM

Informed Catholics knows that Elvis is in Memphis...

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 18 - 04:07 PM

Unless you believe the guy works down the chip shop.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 18 - 07:34 PM

Is it just an Urban/rural legend that creationists have objected to tour guides telling their customers how old The Grand Canyon is reckoned to be because it contradicts the Bible?
Seems an appropriate place to clear up something that has bugged me fur a long time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 May 18 - 08:51 PM

It's an urban (rather, rural) legend. I've been there several times and the official (and licensed) NPS tour guides say nothing of the sort. I can't speak for those who come with tour groups; they can say pretty much anything they want, I guess.

I'm waiting for the Pope, Big Frankie in Rome, to come out and say ex cathedra that we have to care for the poor and each other, that we have to care for the environment, and that Matthew 18:6 is in force. If you then don't do those things you're a heretic and as such cast out of the Church, both Roman and Eastern Rites. Paul Ryan is a Catholic. So Nancy Pelosi and Susan Collins. There's a list of the Senators here and the Representatives here.

As for the dinner -- BFD. The powerful know the powerful, always have and always will.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 May 18 - 01:30 AM

Hi, Jim - I'm sure some tour guides have been challenged by New Earth Creationists about the age of things. The National Park Service and the Smithsonian seem to work hard to present only information that is scientifically accurate. There was a squabble a few years ago about a creationist book that was for sale in a Grand Canyon bookstore, and I don't know how that came out. It was only one book among hundreds the park stores sell, so I didn't think it was worth the big stink some people made of it.

One Mudcatter took me to a park near her home in Texas to show me the dinosaur footprints there. I was amazed to see a creationist center just outside the park - obviously meant to contradict whatever false teachings may go on in the dinosaur park.

But actually, even in the Bible Belt, there's far less anti-evolution propaganda than one might expect. I think most Americans accept standard scientific concepts. It's only a few that are science-deniers.

---

Rap, I really don't think you will hear Frankie da Pope speak ex cathedra (claiming infallibility) on anything. I don't think he buys that infallibility stuff. I think it's only twice that the Doctrine of Infallibility has been invoked since it was promulgated in the 1870s.

But Pope Francis wrote the encyclical Laudato Si, "On Care for our Common Home" in 2015, and that's a very official teaching. That encyclical gives strong support to measures to control the effects of climate change. It's good science.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 18 - 03:31 AM

Thanks for that Joe and Rap
Jim

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 May 18 - 04:56 AM

Joe is onto something. The US has a long track record of promoting dissension and civil war in nations that stand in the way of its hegemony (hence the destruction of Libya and Iraq, the civil war in Syria, promotion of dissent in Iran and backing Falun Gong in China). They would not stop at doing the same to the Catholic Church if it looked like it was bad for the oil business.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 18 - 05:03 AM

"But actually, even in the Bible Belt, there's far less anti-evolution propaganda than one might expect. I think most Americans accept standard scientific concepts. It's only a few that are science-deniers."

From livescience.com. Jan 21 2017:

"The U.S. has a science problem. Around half of the country's citizens reject the facts of evolution; fewer than a third agree there is a scientific consensus on human-caused climate change, and the number who accept the importance of vaccines is ticking downward."

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 18 - 05:09 AM

"...clear up something that has bugged me fur..."

I can recommend a good flea spray which will clear yer bugged fur, Jim...

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 May 18 - 09:45 AM

US belief in evolution? Well....76% do, in one way or another. As for climate change....

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 May 18 - 10:50 AM

76 percent is a far more credible number, I think. I suppose Steve's number does not allow for divine involvement of any sort.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 18 - 11:31 AM

The essence of evolution is that there can be no underlying guiding force, God or not. If you believe that God had a hand in creating humans, or that evolution is "driven by God," then you don't "believe" in the same process of evolution that has been painstakingly teased out by science over two hundred years. It's something else altogether that you believe in. You simply can't start adding fanciful bits on to the science just to reconcile it with your religious beliefs. That's the whole problem with Rap's "one way or another."

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 May 18 - 11:44 AM

That's what I mean about "born-again atheists," Steve. They take the same rigid, narrow view taken by the religious fundamentalists - that there can be one and only one answer to things. They also share a belief that proven facts are the only knowledge that is important. For most people, such narrow "accuracy" is neither necessary nor helpful. In fact, it's downright boring and often distracting from the main point.

It's clear from everyday conversation that most Americans believe in evolution, and note that I use the word "believe" - they find it credible, but can't be bothered with the details or the process of proof.

For the most part, it really doesn't matter whether there's a God involved or not. If God is what rings your chimes, then go ahead and believe in God and that won't hurt anybody. If God ISN'T what rings your chimes, then that's OK, too.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 May 18 - 12:21 PM

" If God is what rings your chimes, then go ahead and believe in God and that won't hurt anybody"

If only that were true Joe, if only that were true.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 18 - 01:07 PM

I don't "share beliefs" because my science is never, ever, predicated on belief, and I am not taking a narrow view about the answer to "things" because I'm not concerning myself at all with answers to things. I AM concerning myself with the fact that there are people of faith who think they can reconcile their faith with science by distorting the science. It's taken science two hundred years to arrive at, agonise over, finesse and refine evolutionary theory, so much so that it's one of the crowning glories of human scientific endeavour. So you attempt to harmonise it with your faith by suggesting (without a shred of evidence to support you) that God runs evolution or has inputs, such as "creating" human beings? Can't you see how silly and facile that is? It's not me taking a narrow view, Joe, it's you narrowing down and degrading the work of thousands of evolutionary biologists who, with respect, know a lot more about the science than you do... When I say that the essence of evolution is that there can be no conscious directional driving force or "intelligence" of any kind behind it, I'm not shutting you out. I'm just doing the science.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 18 - 01:59 PM

That's how you see things Steve. You have to accept that lots of people, including scientists with Nobel prizes, with a fair understanding of evolutionary theory, and who'd also see it as "one of the crowning achievements of human scientific achievement", find no difficulty in reconciling that with religious perspectives.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 18 - 02:12 PM

In many, or most, cases, they may not be deliberately reconciling it, or even trying to reconcile it at all. You're assuming that they all take philosophical thought on the matter, which, actually, they may not bother with. Or they may be compartmentalising the two. I don't have an issue with that, though it gets me scratching my head. We do, though, all have space in our brains for a dash of irrationality, which differentiates us from Mr Spock and gives free rein to imagination and creativity. Religion is the ultimate irrationality, though there are other examples almost as egregious, support for Man U being a case in point.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 18 - 02:19 PM

You don't have an issue with other people seeing things differently from you, and nor do I. And Mr Spock was of course much more prone to irrationality than he made out, you'll recall from Star Trek.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 18 - 02:33 PM

Wasn't that because he had a dash of non-Vulcan blood in his veins?

There's no point trying to share this planet with seven billion other flawed humans if you can't accept that we all have different perspectives on things. And it would be arrogant in the extreme to assume that, somehow, your perspective is superior to theirs. There is a point, which I think can be objectively pointed to, when a perspective, applied by force to other people, becomes malevolent. I regard telling children that there is a supernatural deity in whom they must believe under pain of punishment is a blatant overstepping of that mark. Religions, look to yourselves.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 18 - 02:47 PM

It's a long time ago now, but I can't remember being taught that unbelief was a sin. If you did get taught that, you didn't ought to have been.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 May 18 - 10:05 PM

Here's a decent summary of the position of the RC Church regarding evolution.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: robomatic
Date: 12 May 18 - 10:41 PM

Science IS predicated on belief: The belief in science.

As for Darwin, there is a belief that God gave us Darwin to 'splain His Works.

As for songs there's this:

Origin of Species

"I'll just lie back in the shade while everyone gets laid-
Now that's what I call Intelligent Design!"

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 May 18 - 12:51 AM

Steve, you're a scientist. You feel driven to work out all those theorems and stuff, and that's a good thing. When I studied science (in a Catholic seminary), I worked enough with the Scientific Method that I came to accept that modern scientific study is credible. So, although I did not choose science as a career, I almost always accept (believe) the findings of reputable scientists.
Now, yes I find something divine, something wonderful, in the beauty of the world. Is that unacceptable for you as a scientist?
What bothers me so much about born-again Christians, is that they think that faith is accepting a specific laundry list of beliefs, and despise those who don't buy their list. There are now ultra-conservative Catholics who have the same narrow view. And I suggest that some atheists have a similarly narrow view. I prefer to hold lightly to a variety of perspectives, all of which have value.

Joe

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Thompson
Date: 13 May 18 - 05:08 AM

Surely the definition of "a cold day in Hell"!

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 18 - 05:21 AM

"Now, yes I find something divine, something wonderful, in the beauty of the world. Is that unacceptable for you as a scientist?"

Arse about face I'm afraid, Joe. Science, unendingly, keeps us looking towards better explanations. That search is what fully opens you to seeing the true beauty and "divine" nature of what is really real. Belief in a creator gives you an "explanation" that can't itself be explained, ever (you made it that way, quite deliberately). You've got your answer and you can stop looking. My dad stands outside his house, waving his arms in the air, seeing the trees swaying and feeling the warm sun and breeze on his face and says, what more evidence than THIS do you need for God! My dad's stopped looking, stopped asking. He's found an answer, the wrong answer. Not the wrong answer for him, but still, objectively, the wrong answer. As he's 95 I cut him some slack these days. If there really is a God it's a good bet that he expects us to use all the resources of imagination and intellect he gave us to the full. He'd be grievously insulted to think that huge sections of humanity are too easily satisfied with "answers" that aren't answers at all.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 May 18 - 06:18 AM

That is why catholicism is bollocks and Church of England is the most normal!

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 18 - 06:48 AM

Commercial break time already !!
Jim Vaarrill

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 May 18 - 12:54 PM

And to counter Steve, I would suggest that what his dad and I see is the same thing he sees, but we perceive a divine essence within that causes us to ponder in awe. I don't know that it matters whether that essence is reality or perception, and I don't know why Steve feels it is so important to deny that perception.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 18 - 04:17 PM

Pondering in awe is a wonderful thing. I've been doing it up on the cliffs near Bude all afternoon, in the warm sunshine and gin-clear air that enabled us to see thirty miles along one of the most beautiful coastlines in the world, from Widemouth Bay down to Stepper Point and beyond. The tips of low, lazy waves were spiced by the breeze into sparkling white frothy crests. Early butterflies and bumble bees jousted with each other and the thrift and scurvy grass made a great foil for the fresh green of the turf and the vivid lemon of the kidney vetch. The cool sea breeze on our faces was a tease next to the hot May sunshine. But the pondering sets me looking for the magic of reality, not settling for a super-easy "answer" about some supernatural bloke up there who runs the show. He doesn't. Your mission is to use your brain to find out what's really true. Anything less and you're not using that brain properly. Your God would be very cross with you for that. And if you could just liberate your mind you'd look back on all the dismal aspects of your previous God-infested musings and see that you were wasting your time. It's as strong as that.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 18 - 08:52 PM

"Some supernatural bloke up there who runs the show"

Well, there are some people of whom it’s true to say that's how they see things. But I don't think you'd find many round here. As St Paul put it "When I was a child, I used to talk like a child, and see things as a child does, and think like a child; but now that I have become an adult, I have finished with all childish ways."

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 18 - 12:50 AM

I was a Theology major in college in a Catholic seminary, and I've taught religion classes to adults and children for over 50 years. I don't know how many times I've told classes, "God doesn't write the script." What happens in our lives, is a natural, logical consequence of our own actions and of what happens around us.

I see something wonderful, something divine, in what happens around me. I find value in tying myself to the wisdom, tradition, ideals, and community of my own religious tradition, and of the many religious traditions that exist in the world. I also do my best to consider things from an atheist viewpoint - and to respect all of these traditions and learn from them. I have found it worthwhile to spend my entire life considering things from a variety of perspectives. Even though I may question some aspects of some perspectives, I can still find wisdom in them and learn from them.

Steve, your perspective is too narrow, and you have an annoying habit of redefining God in terms that reasonable believers just can't buy into. Think whatever you want to think, but try to learn how to respect and understand those who see things from a different perspective.

I'm not looking to convert anyone - I'm just asking for tolerance instead of ridicule.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 18 - 03:29 AM

NEW PROBLEM FOR CHURCH IN IRELAND
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 18 - 05:04 AM

Belief in a supernatural being/force/spirit running through all things is a notion that thoroughly deserves ridicule. Doesn't necessarily mean that all holders of such notions deserve ridicule: it depends on how they were conditioned to adopt that blind alley of non-thinking. But intelligent people who persist in pushing those ideas definitely do deserve ridicule, even at times condemnation. And Joe, the narrowness in thinking comes from a persistent, nagging, clinging notion that what you see all around
you simply can't be all there is, that divine add-ons can't be done without. Yes they can and unless you can completely liberate your intellect from that strangling restraint and come into the sunlit uplands you won't ever know just how narrow religious thinking is. The truly divine can come only from your own study, your own questioning, your own freed sense of wonder.

St Paul was abjectly wrong. He forgot to make the crucial distinction between childish and childlike. As Wordsworth said, the child is father of the man (much of his finest poetry wrestled with the theme of the lost innocence, clarity of mind and unending curiosity of children as one moved into adulthood. He wanted it all back for himself but even he couldn't reconjure it). Children question everything and have unbounded enthusiasm for everything (except sprouts). We do our damnedest in our education system to damp that down, unfortunately. And St Paul held the most childish notion of all that humanity has ever dreamed up: he believed in God. Ironic, eh?

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Iains
Date: 14 May 18 - 05:20 AM

To be so sure that the stance you advocate is the only correct one and all others are totally wrong smacks of arrogance, and is not supported by the scientific method.
The earth is flat
man will never fly
rocks cannot fall from the sky
merely three betrayals by the scientific method, overturned by later research.
The way science evolves makes all definitive statements plausible, until overturned.
I would suggest that also applies to deities.As yet no proof exits to support or deny the belief. Tomorrow that could well change.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 18 - 05:41 AM

Well my "stance" on deities is absolutely consistent with "the scientific method" in that the construction has been placed beyond its scrutiny by adherents. The proposition can never be subjected to science, and that's precisely the way they want it, and that isn't going to change tomorrow or any other day. Don't blame me.

I've never said that there's no God, by the way, Iains.

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 18 - 08:26 AM

To say that you see belief in God is ridiculous does actually imply saying that there is no God,

Incidentally the suggestion that is "what you see all around" is all that there is appears not to be held these days by many scientists, in these days when they talk cheerfully about dark energy and dark matter, and multiple universes and suchlike.

What scientific reason do you have for caring about this stuff anyway, Steve?

Subject: RE: Catholic sexual abuse & climate denial
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 May 18 - 08:30 AM

This abstract fluff about the truth or otherwise of religion completely misses the point.

The Catholic Church is not a monolith and its internal divisions matter a great deal. Right now we have a situation where the Pope is trying to take the institution into a more liberal/left direction against a great deal of resistance from entrenched reactionaries backed by the fascist regime in Washington. It is just fucking nuts to attack an organization that might actually do something to stop Trump because of wibbling pickiness about their epistemology.

Nor is the Catholic church the only one. On the one occasion when I met Noam Chomsky he made an interesting point (probably repeating something he'd already said in print, he won't have wasted an insight on some random stranger): the place you expect to see grassroots progressive initiatives in the US is within churches. This being because (a) nearly everybody in the US belongs to one since the country has an unparalleled proportion of religious believers, and (b) they provide a unique space for people to meet and organize. Not all churches provide such an environment - a mega-church seating thousands where all the doctrine comes out of a PA certainly won't - but the "Christian Left" is a significant phenomenon over there.