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How reliable is Folk History ?
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 23 May 18 - 02:11 PM Teribus? Haven't you been paying attention Jim? Get in touch with Backwoodsman according to him Iains is Teribus. Judging from the opinions given on this thread it would appear that the reliability of folk history is very much in doubt. Anyone who does not fall in with your interpretation must be automatically "defending" someone accused with debauchery purely on the basis of unconfirmed gossip and rumour. The FACT is that no-one knows, so best leave it at that. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 May 18 - 01:42 PM Eexploring Exploiting a mass tragedy of course Don't want another typo getting in the away, do we? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 May 18 - 01:05 PM "If Keegan got that wrong, I wouldn't take the rest of what he says on trust." Typos and mis-spelling of names is a pretty pathetic defence of s known tyrant David You are nit-picking to avoid the obvious Leitrim was generally hated - by his tenants, by his fellow landlords and his fellow peers You brought up Slevin - that is what her researches revealed C'mon - he was a bad lot among badl lots exploring a mass tragedy Mis-spelling - you have to be joking No reference to the documented evidence of the general behaviour of landlords in that period Rather than Teribus's Stalin quote I would much rather accept the wonderful opening to the late Frank Harte's lecture on Irish Political Song given to an audience at the National folk Festival in Sutton onnington He opened: "The english have never understood the Irish" - heavy pause - "but the Irish have always understood the English" I've never seen a shudder run through a roomful of people as it did that morning Britain still has to get to grips with its shameful behaviour in Ireland Leitrim was one of many Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 23 May 18 - 12:28 PM His name was Clements. If Keegan got that wrong, I wouldn't take the rest of what he says on trust. Wikipedia, quoting Simonsen (who would seem to be at least as reputable a source as a Priest) hints at a more likely motive for the murder. "The assassins, Nial Shiels of Doughmore, an itinerant tailor, Michael Hergarty of Tullyconnell, and Michael MvElwee of Ballyworiskey, were from the remote Fanad Peninsula. In 1877, "McElwee's father was involved in litigation with Leitrim with the result that McElwee was rendered bankrupt, and his house and farm were sold at auction." If one thing is more often a motive for murder than sex, its money. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Craig Date: 23 May 18 - 11:42 AM The Demon Lover (The House Carpenter) on SingOut! - somewhat relevant to this thread as it spends quite a lot of time comparing how/when/why the lyrics have changed in different versions https://singout.org/2012/09/03/the-demon-lover-the-house-carpenter/ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 23 May 18 - 11:04 AM Or as Joseph Stalin put it: The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 May 18 - 10:51 AM Nice one Jack Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jack Campin Date: 23 May 18 - 10:32 AM A quote from Brecht, repeated in a Facebook post just now by the Turkish percussionist Gizem Altinordu as a summary of what the political events of her entire 28-year life have felt like: The first time it was reported that our friends were being butchered there was a cry of horror. Then a hundred were butchered. But when a thousand were butchered and there was no end to the butchery, a blanket of silence spread. When evil-doing comes like falling rain, nobody calls out "stop!" when crimes begin to pile up they become invisible. When sufferings become unendurable the cries are no longer heard. The cries, too, fall like rain in summer. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 May 18 - 09:09 AM This fom the latter of Fr. Keegan, accusing Leitrim of abusing Women Jim Carroll 23. An account of the alleged sexual behaviour of the third Earl of Leitrim (William Clemence) has been provided by James Keegan, a Catholic priest from Co Leitrim who emigrated to the USA. Redpath’s Weekly was published in New York, and Keegan wrote for it under the name “Pastheen Fionn”. In the issue dated 8 December 1883 he wrote as follows: “One of the motives for the eviction of the Catholics [by Clemence] was in order for the people of other religions, or of no religion, who had fair wives and daughters and were not chary of their virtue, to be in convenient distance of the [Clemence] castle. I have never been able to make out a single case of a Catholic girl being ruined by Lord Leitrim in the county of Leitrim. To their credit be it spoken, there were Protestants - notably one man - who gave up his house and farm sooner than sacrifice his daughter to the hoary rerobate .... It is not universally true ... that his Lordship’s ‘servant girls’ were all sent off to England and America and elsewhere. No; his Lordship made exceptions; he married some of them to his Orange tenants, and when the happy men afterwards resented further familiarities and refused to live with such vile women, his Lordship evicted them”. It therefore seems that in Keegan’s opinion Clemence specialized in having sex with Protestant women and girls. We have no means of verifying Keegan’s account. I thank my former colleague James Heslin, now retired, for giving me a copy of Keegan’s article, cited above. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 May 18 - 08:48 AM I wan't aware of Slevin's work but I do know that Malcommson was an unashamed advocate of Leitrim's good character - hardly borne out by the description of him by his colleagues in The House of Lords Your insistence of "real historians" can hardly include a writer of fiction as an expert This is probably the most revealing evidence of the likelihood of it having happened SEXUAL INTEMPERANCE AND MONEY ON AN IRISH ESTATE 1840S This, from a review of Slevin's book makes interesting reading As a young man he was preoccupied with “social life, travel and the opposite sex” and left a trail of lovers and mistresses across the continent. His siblings relied on him as the only one capable of dealing with their mother’s mental illness, which he apparently did with patience and love. Hardly attributes that we normally associate with Lord Leitrim, a man we are more used to describing as an embittered tyrant and oppressor who was disliked by his fellow-landlords as much as by his tenants. In the Mohill & District Historical and Heritage Society talk on April 11, “He was not a bad man if he got his way” Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 23 May 18 - 08:02 AM Well Jim, you know even less than Wikipedia then. There are two more recent (than Dolan) books on Leitrim, by Fiona Slevin in 2006 and A.P.W. Malcolmson in 2008. Undoubtedly both would have counted Dolan's research amongst their sources. As they dates are so close whether they were aware of each other is unclear. There is a third, broader from the title, book by Mary Lydon Simonsen in 2017, although Mary Lydon Simonsen is mostly a writer of fiction. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 May 18 - 06:46 AM "You are right that in order to access the material from which to form a balanced viewpoint you probably need access to a university library" You are missing the point David Governments actually remove historical documents they deem sensitive I've already mentioned the post Easter Week trials - they have never been available and I doubt if they ever shall be Recently masses of British documents disappeared in an administration "botch-up", including the 'Zinoviev Letter' - accident or or chnge of political circumstances The other example I mentioned, that of the David Ben Gurion manuscripts, was most definitely the latter. A period of history almost contemporary with Leitrim - that of the Congolese enterprises of Leopold II, King of Belgium provide an example of the powerful hiding their misdeeds on a grand scale 10 million Congolese tribesmen died in the ruthless pursuit for rubber, churchmen wrote about it, protesters like Mark Twain produced pamphlets on it, yet a little more than a decade after the events the world was plunged into war, one of the slogans that brought about that bloodbath was "The Rape of Gallant Little Belgium" When Leopold's business crumbled into ruins his staff spent three days incinerating the records. No great importance has been attached to Leopold's behaviour in the intervening 120 years We are told what is considered fit for for us to know on certain subjects, no more "Fiona Slevin," Who he/she? As far as I know, the main research on Leitrim was done by local researcher, Liam Dolan, a non historian He drew his information from local records, newspapers, parish documents and contemporary local accounts If his and local claims contradicted documented accounts of Leitrim's behaviour you might have a point There is no documented account as far as I am aware, local records and accounts and the songs and stories are all we have to go on. There seems to be a lot of "it didn't happen because it's detrimental to Britain's colonial record if it did" going on here We don't know for certain, but it's more than possible that it happened - that's what empowered maen do, given the opportunity - go ask the victims of Harvey Weinstein or Jimmy Savile or the rapist priests... I really think we've said all that needs to be said on this particular song (one of a dozen or so on the same evil character) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Howard Jones Date: 23 May 18 - 04:04 AM History is not the work of any one historian. Like any academic discipline, it is an attempt to reach a consensus on what happened, why it happened, and what were the consequences,based on an understanding of known facts. Like any academic discipline, knowledge is imperfect as not all the facts can be known, and of course different people will come to different conclusions. Where enough historians can agree then something can be said to be decided, but only for now. Knowledge evolves over time as new facts emerge and new interpretations are made. All sources are unreliable until their provenance can be established. The problem with folk history is that those provenances are usually unknown. In most cases we do not know where the story or song originated, whether the author was an eye-witness or based it on hearsay, whether details were changed to make a better story or to achieve a rhyme, or to what extent the story was altered in subsequent re-tellings. That is the very nature of folk history. Folk history may be able to tell us a lot about a community's attitudes to something, both around the time of an event and subsequently. Whether it can be relied upon as a description of that event is very doubtful, and can probably only be known if the details can be confirmed from other sources. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 23 May 18 - 02:32 AM You are right that in order to access the material from which to form a balanced viewpoint you probably need access to a university library (often a question of distance, not permission) or to pay for some journal subscriptions. You are reading books written from a particular viewpoint, and these have often not been through any review process, although some may have (for instance) been submitted to RAE or REF. But if the havn't then you need to take them all with a pinch of salt. Not that they are all nonsense of course. And not all serious historians work in universities. The author of the primary source on the issue of Lord Leitrim, which started all of this, is Fiona Slevin, who as far as I can see does not hold a university position, but whose research seems to adopt academic methodology. So you need to assess the capabilities of the author, unless through a formal review process it has already been done for you |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 May 18 - 08:17 PM "Academic historians write academic papers" Laargely for other academics - a totally incestuous exercise Take six histories on one subject and you are quite likely to arrieve at twice that many conclusions. History is a balance of facts and analysis - quite often, when the facts correspond their analyses clash a major interest of mine is the political history of the late 19th/20th century of Europe I am now on my (at least - lost count) 20th major work on the left movements of the early twentieth century All contain valuable information, few agree overall In the end, you make up your mind base on the sum total of all, plus your own understanding, on both factual and philosophical understanding of the subject Unless you come into these subjects at 'Ladybird Books' level, that is what you need to do. For 150 years, the history of the Irish Famine lay dormant, for political/social reasons Since the 150th anniversary in 1995, the subject has blossomed, and continues to do so. Governments and institutions protect themselves by setting time limits to which they can legally restrict public access to certain information Without naming names (for fear of closing this thread), despite that time now being long expired, one Government has not so long ago recalled a large number of documents regarding a major historical political figure No historian is free of such restrictions There is an aura of supposed unbiased purity surrounding formal historians which needs bursting All historians come to their subjects burdened by often deliberate misinformation and prejudices of their own and past generations, just like Sinbad was burdened by The Old Man of the Sea Like Sinbad, they need to rid themselves of that burden if they are going to make sense of their subjects In this respect, formal history is no more reliable than is folk history (in many ways, probably less, as folk history is subject to no restrictions Jim Carroll PS A favourite passage of mine describing the function of History - From James Stephens's Irish Faairy Stories (1920) Once, as they rested in a chase, a debate arose among the Fianna as to what was the finest music in the world. ‘Tell us that’ said Finn, turning to Oisin. ‘The cuckoo calling from the tree that is highest in the hedge,’ cried his merry son. ‘A good sound’, said Finn. ‘And you, Oscar,’ he asked, what is to your mind the finest of music?’ ‘The top of music is the ring: of a spear on a shield’, cried the stout lad. ‘It is a good sound’, said Finn. And the other champions told their delight the belling of a stag across water, the baying of a tuneful pack heard in the distance, the song of a lark, the laughter of a gleeful girl, or the whisper of a moved one. ‘They are good sounds all,’ said Finn. ‘Tell us, chief,’ one ventured, ‘what do you think’. ‘The music of what happens,’ said great Finn, ‘that is the finest music in the world’. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 22 May 18 - 04:18 PM Academic historians write academic papers and publish them in journals like these ones. They also write books. Their publications are peer reviewed, cited by others, sometimes supportively, sometimes critically. In the UK, their work is also reviewed for the Research Excellence Framework. They do not write for establishment or other figures, whether in the UK or France. The situation in the 18th and 19th centuries, well I cannot say so much about that. But I know that academic historians now, as opposed to folk historians like David Irving, have standards of objectivity and transparency which they must meet as a condition of their academic employment. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 22 May 18 - 03:34 PM Official Establishment History is written by Academic historians, since these academics CANNOT agree on who were the victors, historically their work becomes unreliable, these academic historians write french and english history, and cannot agree, that makes their work unreliable. I hate to disabuse you Sandman but most history, "official", "establishment", or otherwise is actually written by "academic" historians all of whom have studied history and know what is required in terms of objective research and analysis to arrive at whatever conclusions they reach. I would love to hear from you which academic historians declare that Napoleon won the Napoleonic Wars. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: The Sandman Date: 22 May 18 - 12:30 PM Official Establishment History is written by Academic historians, since these academics CANNOT agree on who were the victors, historically their work becomes unreliable, these academic historians write french and english history, and cannot agree, that makes their work unreliable. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 May 18 - 03:21 PM My apologies Harry - responded in a hurry and misread your question Lousy at multi-tasking Teribus - "The Warlike Sailor" and "The Nottingham & Mars". Despite the few who wish it was - Broadside History is not 'Folk History Te folk tended to comment on the results of war on those who were forced to fight it rather than war itself anyway Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Harry Rivers Date: 21 May 18 - 03:05 PM I sometimes wonder if contributors to Mudcat can actually read because they seldom bother to do so. If half of you knew half as much as you think you know, you'd be dangerous. I'm not going to waste any more of my time. Adieu. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 21 May 18 - 03:01 PM David Carter has pointed out the major flaw in The Sandman's argument. In researching any event in history a vast array of sources written from different perspectives are studied in detail - the "Establishment and Official history" represents only ONE of those perspectives. "Folk History IS RELATED BY THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE, and who do not have a vested interest in using it as government propoganda, and in my experience is less unreliable than the Establishment official history." Robert Burns wrote a song that recalls the events relating to the Battle of Sherrifmuir fought in November 1715. Burns actually talked to two people who fought in the battle (One who fought on the Government side and the other who fought on the Jacobite side), he also talked to someone who had stood and watched the battle from afar (This was a battle that Rob Roy MacGregor "sat out" having arrived too late to take part in it). Those three people that Burns talked to "WHO WERE THERE" all gave markedly different accounts of what they saw and experienced as individuals. Go to the location of the battle and you can instantly see why. The perceptions were that the right flank of the Jacobite Army defeated to left flank of Argyll's Army, the right flank of Argyll's Army absolutely trounced the left flank of the Jacobite Army, the action fought by the centres of both was very inconclusive as neither side could determine what was happening to their respective rights and lefts. So from the song written on the accounts of people WHO WERE THERE tells you nothing, so this particular piece of FOLK HISTORY is not so much unreliable as being totally useless. See further up in the comparison between "The Warlike Sailor" and "The Nottingham & Mars". Many examples exist illustrating horrendous errors in folk history as portrayed in song. I have yet to come across any lyric of any folk song that corrects history. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 May 18 - 02:50 PM "Now, would you categorise EP Thompson as an Establishment historian? " Neither Thomson not marx were 'Folk Historians' We have a recording of a lecture he gave in Birmingham where he acknowledges his indebtedness to 'Folk History' Marx was an economist - Fred Engles was the historian (but not a folkie) - can't wait to see the film if it ever moves further West than Dublin Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Harry Rivers Date: 21 May 18 - 02:37 PM Sandman, If you can't say who wrote it ("An impossible question Harry and getting more so as time passes"), how do you know, definitively, they they were there? "Folk history IS RELATED BY THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE" . . . really? Now, would you categorise EP Thompson as an Establishment historian? What about Karl Marx? Harry |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 21 May 18 - 02:19 PM Thats why we have academic historians who can analyse the reliability of all of the contemporary sources, and reach a balanced, if not necessarily final, view. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: The Sandman Date: 21 May 18 - 02:11 PM Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 16 May 18 - 02:36 PM "That's why we start with "Who wrote it?"." An impossible question Harry and getting more so as time passes. Far easier to ask "who does it represent" Jim Carrolll Establishment and Official history represents the establishment point of view. French Establishment history represents the French government at the time it was written, English establishment history represents the English government at the time it was written., AND YETCAN THEY CONTRADICT EACH OTHER THUS MAKING THEM UNRELIABLE My Nephew went to school first in England and then in France, AND DISCOVERED that they both had won the same wars, the conclusion to this that Establishment history is unreliable Folk History IS RELATED BY THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE, and who do not have a vested interest in using it as government propoganda, and in my experience is less unreliable than the Establishment official history. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 19 May 18 - 01:18 PM Me: "Mentions linking Guthrie's “creosote dumps” lyric to crop poisoning, Federal subsidies, prices &c first appear here on Mudcat,..." Minor correction: It appears Joe may posted, or provided info, to Google Groups or another folk site in the late 1990s before Mudcat. He would know better than I. Two blunt questions Joe: how long have you been accusing American farmers and farm workers of "creosote dumping," or whatever, and have you ever done a proper fact check before now? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Howard Jones Date: 18 May 18 - 05:06 AM "My main objection was you attributing motives to me I do not have" No more so than you did with me, Jim, but let's leave it there. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: PATRICK SHEEHAN (Tom Lenihan) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 May 18 - 02:59 AM "Band" isn't a folk song and was written many decades after the event I don't think it attempted to convey anything other than the emotional and physical effects of war, which is what, in my opinion, makes it a good song The main value of the songs we have been discussing is that they were mainly made while the 'corpses were still warm' so to speak and they represent views based on being there, views that are seldom if ever covered by formal histories. Some were deliberately made for a purpose; a case in point being 'Patrick Sheehan' created by the author Charles Kickham to discourage Irishmen from enlisting to fight in British wars It was a work of fiction, but it was based on the experiences of a former soldier It was made when the author observed an ex-soldier who had been blinded at Sebastapol reduced to begging on the streets of Dublin because his army pension had expired - a song describing a period of history rather than actual events. Apart from acting as a propaganda piece, it also forced the authorities to review their policy on pensions Jim Carroll PATRICK SHEEHAN (Laws J11; Roud 983) Tom Lenihan Knockbrack, Miltown Malbay Recorded 1977 Carroll Mackenzie Collection Tom Lenihan
My name is Patrick Sheehan, and my years are thirty-four; |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 18 May 18 - 02:20 AM "describe all the mistakes you can find in The Band Played Waltzing Matilda". That Professsor set a really easy question/assignment Jack and if he expected three pages from the first verse, you'd get double that from the second. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jack Campin Date: 17 May 18 - 12:28 PM Somebody here once reported that an Australian history professor once ste as an assignment or exam question, "describe all the mistakes you can find in The Band Played Waltzing Matilda". The students were expected to get about three pages just from the first verse. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 May 18 - 09:57 AM My main objection was you attributing motives to me I do not have Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Howard Jones Date: 17 May 18 - 09:14 AM Jim, I think you are missing my point. I am not trying to prove or disprove the allegations against Lord Leitrim. I am trying to answer the question posed by this thread, "How reliable is Folk History ?" My conclusion on your views is based on what you have written, but you are going from the general to the specific. Yes there is plenty of actual evidence that the landlord class behaved appallingly, including their treatment of women. There are allegations, rumours and gossip about a specific individual. Taken together, on the balance of probabilities it is not unreasonable to believe that those rumours may be true about him. But believing is not knowing. What we cannot say is that those rumours, even (perhaps especially) when set out in song or passed down the generations by word of mouth, can be relied upon to any significant extent as confirmation that they are actually true. Neither can we say that there is not some basis of truth there either. The same is true of any folk history. This is how legends arise. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 May 18 - 08:33 AM "the question is how reliable are they? " They are relaiable as confirmation that they probably happened aand that the information contained within is acceptable as an account of what happened to the community "Your assumption that the allegations against Lord Leitrim are true are based on your prejudice against his class," That is an assumption on your part about me - I don't think we've ever met or discussed the matter I have neen con versant with the situation following the famine in Ireland for most of my life, from family background and from studying the period There is little argument that that period was brutish and inhuman and that the consequences for the people of Ireland - that is beyond dispute That landlords behaved as is claimed of Leitrim is part of the local history o my chosen home - common knowledge Who knows the truth of the 'droit du seigneur' accusations, and when it comes down to it, what does it matter if a landlord took women based on an acncient right or just an exercise of power? Either way, the woman endes up raped - in a period that talked about girls being "ruined" by such behaviour that was a catastophic event to someone who would quite possibly be ostracised for 'allowing' such things to happen to her The Magdalene Laundries were full of raped girls There can be no dobt that people in power debauched women at a whim - is seems an awfull fuss is being made about whether they did it formally, as of right - either way, they took advantage of their positions I can't file at present, but there are a large number of songs on the same subject all similar in their description of Leitrim's behaviour Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 17 May 18 - 06:44 AM Broadsides for which the author is known, either because the name is printed on the sheet or through other means is what I mean't. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Howard Jones Date: 17 May 18 - 04:43 AM Jim, it may well be local testimonies are the only sources available, the question is how reliable are they? This is not singling them out, all historical sources must be assessed for reliability. Your assumption that the allegations against Lord Leitrim are true are based on your prejudice against his class, which is not unjustified given actual historical evidence of landlords' behaviour and attitudes at that time, together with the number of similar allegations made about him. No smoke without fire. On a balance of probabilities, the allegations are believable. That does not mean they are true. It is likewise well-recorded that members of the upper classes would frequently take advantage of lower class women, especially those in their households over whom they held most power (nothing much has changed there). Again, on a balance of probabilities this is entirely believable. However 'droit du seigneur' is a very specific form of abuse which goes way beyond seducing parlourmaids on the billiard table. The original ballad refers simply to his debauchery, and only in passing as a character defect rather than the specific motive for the murder. The suggestion of droit du seigneur came from the singer from whom it was recorded, 76 years after the events in question. He could have had no direct knowledge of them, and who knows how many mouths the story had passed through before it reached him? How reliable can that testimony be? Droit du seigneur would have been so unusual and so outrageous that if this was alleged about him it is perhaps surprising that the song does not explicitly mention it. Calling him a debaucher hardly covers it. Leitrim does seem to have been an exceptionally nasty piece of work, which makes it entirely believable that he might be guilty. Hearsay gossip after three quarters of a century is not reliable evidence of it. To avoid you jumping to conclusions again, I am not defending him. I am simply saying that evidence is lacking. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 May 18 - 03:26 AM Sorry lads Broadides are far from reliable as historical documents - assuming the songs have made it to the prsses anyway - in the case of Leitrim, few if any did All "historical accuracy" depends on access to the original information - oif that is not available, the most reliable sources we have are the local testimonies in whatever form they reach us - and a touch of logic, of course. There is no reason in the world not to believe Lord Leitrim behaved as hr did - they were all at it Access to local women ws a perk of the job, but it was also a display of power over your sujects - a way of reminding them who they were Surely the clerical abuse revelations have shown that (the first reference to clerical abuse was made at the time The Book of Kells was being written) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 17 May 18 - 03:12 AM Absolutely they should Harry, and I think that the only way that this can happen is if there is a verifiable broadside kept somewhere like the Bodleian, and that historians know who the writer is and they can assess their reliability in the same way as they would assess any other manuascript. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Harry Rivers Date: 16 May 18 - 05:29 PM David, All I am trying to say is: if folk songs are being used as historical sources, they should be submitted to the same vigorous, crtitcal appraisal as all sources for history; and, authenticity should not be assumed even if the lyric resides in an august institution such as the National Library of China. And I'm done. Harry |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 16 May 18 - 04:08 PM Fake news: “Michigan Farmers Forced to Destroy Edible Cherries to Prop Up Imports?” True: Michigan cherry farmer Marc Santucci destroyed 14 percent of his 2016 crop due to cherry industry limits on the supply of marketable cherries. False: Cherry farmers requested they be covered by a USDA marketing order (it was not imposed on them), the order was implemented to stabilize the volatile cherry market (not to "protect imports"), and farmers are not required to destroy surplus cherries. Ver$u$ everyday reality of farming: “Johnston said that in the past, he's had to sell as many as 75,000 40-pound boxes of navel oranges to juice makers, getting about 50 cents a box, because quotas prevented him from selling them as fresh fruit, for which he gets about $8 a box.” [17 May 1994 LA Times article on demise of Sunkist's Depression era quota system.] Note: Insult to injury, poor farmer Santucci had to pick up all the cherries after the reporters left or face an illegal dumping citation to boot. Farmer Johnston got paid and we got juiced. Happy HAZOPing! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 16 May 18 - 04:04 PM Mystery guest: “Fascinating, Phil - Joe and Mudcat feature in California newspapers of the '30'a and '40's. Other way round. The “folk history” is absent from the document record until the 1990s and Mudcat. I searched, for anything, anytime even remotely related to: “The crops are all in and the peaches are rott'ning, The oranges piled in their creosote dumps." are another protest by Guthrie. At the time, government policies paid farmers to destroy their crops in order to keep farm production and prices high. Guthrie felt that it was wrong to render food inedible by poisoning it in a world where hungry people lived.” [song wiki, check the footnote.] Mentions linking Guthrie's “creosote dumps” lyric to crop poisoning, Federal subsidies, prices &c first appear here on Mudcat, nothing in the decades before that. Not even Guthrie or Steinbeck to be fair to the artists mentioned. It's just Mudcat and unsourced “everybody knows,” “common industry knowledge” & “seems reasonable to me” statements of “fact” as above and in the song threads. Joe found the same, he recalls reading the sources but can't retrieve them now. Not even in the one (1) link provided. Nada. The single reference he's located so far is the Agricultural Marketing Agreement Act of 1937 program that authorizes those same voluntary commercial grower co-ops. So we agree, I assume, up to the point that co-ops exist and there's no mention of deliberate crop destruction or Federal payouts in them anywhere. Zilch. Absent any document record, we've waffled back down to how we treat food waste which, on the other hand, is not the same as wasted food at all. 2-10% of every harvest is inedible waste, cull and trash by law and industry standards. If you're good at it. Railcars full of the stuff and zippo to do with pricing, marketing orders, pilfering or safe, edible food of any kind. This folk history meme has already devolved a long, long way from the song wiki and Joe's opening gambit in the song thread and I don't feel noways tired. Next! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 16 May 18 - 03:38 PM Well I would trust for instance that the ancient documents held by the National Library of China have not been edited. It could be that in the past they were selective about what was housed there, but editing historical documents? I doubt it. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Harry Rivers Date: 16 May 18 - 03:30 PM Jim, I'm well aware that it is difficult, sometimes impossible, to identify the "who". The inability to identify the "who" weakens the source and questions its reliability as a source for History. That's not to say it's worthless, just less reliable. The thread is "How reliable is Folk History?", is it not? David, fair cop, I was using hyperbole to establish a point but do you really believe that repressive regimes haven't edited the contents of their national libraries? Egyptian Pharoahs, Roman Emperors, Mediaeval Kings, and fascist dictators have all 'edited' the national records that may have questioned their legitimacy. A resource such as the Bodleian is invalauable but it exists within a realtively free western democracy. The UK may not always be such a State. How many modern photographs (one of tomorrow's primary sources for a history of today) can we really trust? The Great Russian Encyclopaedia has corrected many of the flaws of the Great Soviet Encyclopaedia but would you trust it more ot less than Britannica or Wikipedia? I think the way you answer that question depends, essentially, on the "who". Cheers, Harry |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 16 May 18 - 03:03 PM What you are describing Harry, is forgery. Yes documents can be forged. But it is in many cases possible to establish their provenance, particularly if they reside in an established library (e.g. the Bodleian). Whole libraries cannot be edited. Thats why people who don't like what is in them destroy them instead. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 May 18 - 02:36 PM "That's why we start with "Who wrote it?"." An impossible question Harry and getting more so as time passes. Far easier to ask "who does it represent" Jim Carrolll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Harry Rivers Date: 16 May 18 - 10:09 AM Howard, "Folk process" is covered by "Who wrote it?" All historical documents can be changed (re-written), none are set in stone, either literally or metaphorically; a half-decent mason can change a carved inscription which even the keenest eye can miss. If the will is there, whole libraries can be edited. That's why we start with "Who wrote it?". Harry |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Howard Jones Date: 16 May 18 - 07:43 AM In addition to Harry Rivers' History 101 you have to add the "folk process". How much has the story been changed in the telling? Historical documents are at least set in stone (sometimes literally), folk history and songs are always liable to change. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 May 18 - 07:22 AM Reverend Charles Kingsly's Christian take on the Irish I am haunted by the human chimpanzees I saw [in Ireland] . . . I don't believe they are our fault. . . . But to see white chimpanzees is dreadful; if they were black, one would not feel it so much. . . ." (Charles Kingsley in a letter to his wife, quoted in L.P. Curtis, Anglo-Saxons and Celts, p.84). Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 May 18 - 07:12 AM Sigh!!!!! Take it up with the researcher Teribus Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 16 May 18 - 07:07 AM Throughout the previous year the railways had been extending through the English border country and into Scotland. A third of the navvies were Irish, a third Scots, and a third English: that was the beginning of the trouble - easy-going Roman Catholic Irish, Presbyterian Scots, and impartially belligerent English. - Terry Coleman’s ‘Railway Navvies’ Nothing "easy going" about Roman Catholicism (Far to many strictures: You can't do this, you can't do that. You must eat this you can't eat that on certain days. You must do this, you must do that - all bound up in anything against the diktat of the Pope, the Bishop or the Priest is a mortal sin that will send you to hell). Presbyterianism while strict in observance has far fewer such strictures. Wonder why after describing the others in terms of religion Coleman then describes the English Navvies as he does - surely they would have mostly been Church of ENgland (The most laid back religion in the world, born as it was out of convenience). Hidden in all the cut'n'paste verbiage the real reason the Irish emigrants were met with hostility not only in Liverpool, Glasgow, Boston, Chicago and New York is given: their one genuine grievance (the fact that the Irishmen would work for less pay and so tended to bring down wages) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 May 18 - 06:44 AM is similar to comments I have heard from rich people in fundamentalist churches " Whoops - should read 150th aniversery SOUPERISM Jim Carroll |
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