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How reliable is Folk History ?
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 May 18 - 06:14 AM Think we're finished here Ter.... We really have been here a thousand times before - I'm not interested in reopening it with you "is similar to comments I have heard from rich people in fundamentalist churches " Trevelyan was a religious fundamentalist but his appointment gave Government blessing to is inhumanity Large numbers of Irish people have always referred to The Famine as Ireland's Holocaust - the revelations rising from the awakened history after the 10th anniversary indicate that there is a foundation for that belief Trevelyan's letter in full, (a large missal sent in two parts) was reproduced in Tim Pat Coogan's 'The Famine Plot' - a depressing and anger-making read but one of the most important ones of the deluge of works produced at the time. Another religion-connected issue he dealt with was the 'Soupers' the Protestant schools that doled out food to starving children in exchange for them renouncing their religion I can see one from our back window, referred to o - now in use for selling used cars and repairing punctures - never sure if there's a symbolic significance in that Jim Caarroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 16 May 18 - 05:37 AM Jim this is the statement of yours that I responded to: Nobody seems to want to discuss the actual surroundings of the situation and the power of (virtually) life and death these people wielded and the proven way they used it to exile millions and evict many more millions to homelessness and permanent exile? However this is the one you now appear to be taking me task for, which is something I have never commented on: It seems to me you are defending the indefensible Your reason for doing so becomes obvious in your sentence "the simple fact remains that if rent is not paid the tenant is evicted that was and still is the case anywhere in the UK and I dare say in the ROI." Are you really suggesting that the death of millions and the forcible emigrations that followed the famine are less important than paying the rent Please show me in the first quotation above where you mention the death of millions - or is this another example of the non-existent name you took me to task for earlier. Simple fact Jim there is just simply no discussing anything with you, all you seem to seek is sycophantic agreement of every utterance. How reliable is "Folk History"? The answer is Not very reliable at all. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 16 May 18 - 04:54 AM That last sentence in red, Jim, is similar to comments I have heard from rich people in fundamentalist churches who refuse to get involved in any kind of societal activity. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 May 18 - 04:18 AM Wonder how Tribus is getting on these days Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 May 18 - 04:10 AM "It can be considered as being evidence under what is known as "rules of evidence" As evidence of good character - no more As I said you can only give evidence that a crime was committed - unless the crime was specified with time, date and location, that's all Whatever way you look at it Leitrim was not of good character (even though his housekeeper said he was, plenty more, including his peers in the House of Lords denied this) "The "droit de Seigneur" nonsense " You know this of course - of course you don't, nobody does, but the exercising of power and influence to gain sexual favours is as documented a fact as you could wish to have It seems to me you are defending the indefensible Your reason for doing so becomes obvious in your sentence "the simple fact remains that if rent is not paid the tenant is evicted that was and still is the case anywhere in the UK and I dare say in the ROI." Are you really suggesting that the death of millions and the forcible emigrations that followed the famine are less important than paying the rent Had the Famine occurred in the Midlands and a similar approach was taken, there would have been guillotines on the streets of Birmingham Evidence such as this, from the man appointed by the British Government to deal with the effects of the Famine, Sir Charles Trevelyan, suggest that it wasn't just mishandled, but deliberate policy. In a letter to an Irish peer, Lord Monteagle of Brandon, a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, he described the famine as an "effective mechanism for reducing surplus population" as well as "the judgement of God" and wrote that "The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people" That seems to be what you are supporting Think we're finished here Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 16 May 18 - 03:40 AM By all means let us drop any hostility Jim. None was ever intended. Thank you for explaining who the T.P. mentioned in the song was, although why you simply did not do that in the first place I do not know. I would also like to thank you for the rather round about admission that his name did not appear in any link supplied by you making your highly judgmental statement "If you actually read the historical link to what was put up you would know who TP was - as you appear to not be interested in what others have to say or what the 'man in the street' passed on to is in the form of oral history, I see little point in continuing with you totally in error and without foundation. You say of this statement "by his Housekeeper in the form of her letter dismissing the allegations" - How can this be considered any more "evidence" than the dozens of local reports or the twenty-odd songs describing his bad behaviour ? It can be considered as being evidence under what is known as "rules of evidence" in that it was a written statement in response to the accusations leveled against her employer as being the possible motive for the attack on him that left three men dead. The "droit de Seigneur" nonsense was a red herring designed to throw the police off the scent. Lord Leitrum was murdered because of his policy of eviction, nothing else: The assassins, Nial Shiels of Doughmore, an itinerant tailor, Michael Hergarty of Tullyconnell, and Michael MvElwee of Ballyworiskey (The actual assassin of Lord Leitrum), were from the remote Fanad Peninsula. In 1877, "McElwee's father was involved in litigation with Leitrim with the result that McElwee was rendered bankrupt, and his house and farm were sold at auction." Somebody saying something about a third party because they "heard it" from someone else down the pub who was married to someone who "heard it" from her cousin who's aunty delivered vegetables to the grocer who supplied big house cannot be considered "evidence" under those very same rules. Just because someone WANTS to believe a story does not make the story TRUE. Strange that after his death not a single one of his victims ever came forward to corroborate the allegations. The letter was written at the time when rumour of this "droit de Seigneur" were proposed to her as being the cause of Lord Leitrum's murder. How can someone testify that something "never happened" unless the accusations are specified? Her statement amounts no no more than "'is lordship would never do such a thing" You say, and here you are expressing your opinion, you are not stating fact - "Her statement amounts no no more than "'is lordship would never do such a thing" - What is stated in the letter written by the person in charge of the house and all those employed in the household is a categorical refutation of the allegations inferred by what was nothing more than unverifiable and unsubstantiated gossip. Another opinion offered by you states - What else is a woman who relies on sucking up to the gentry for her living going to say? - If the story you believe to be the truth is the truth then it would appear that everybody in the area relied on their living by sucking up to the gentry yet you find one section is to be believed but others are not. The letter was written after Lord Leitrum's death so she had no need to suck up to anybody, her "living" had gone. Nobody has responded to his feller's reputation as described by his fellow peers That some of his fellow peers in the House of Lords described Lord Leitrum as a bit of a "bad lot" is irrelevant and could relate to a whole host of other reasons for them passing that judgement. Nowhere is it stated that it had any connection to the "droit de Seigneur" nonsense. It was a fairly common suggestion that the landed gentry liked to dip their quills in the local inkwells - why not Leitrim? It being a "fairly common SUGGESTION" does not make it established fact. Nobody seems to want to discuss the actual surroundings of the situation and the power of (virtually) life and death these people wielded and the proven way they used it to exile millions and evict many more millions to homelessness and permanent exile What would there be to discuss? We are talking here of an event that happened in 1878 when things were very different to the way things are now. But with regard to the payment of rent by a tenant the simple fact remains that if rent is not paid the tenant is evicted that was and still is the case anywhere in the UK and I dare say in the ROI. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Joe Offer Date: 16 May 18 - 03:21 AM That's my point, Jim. The song posted does a terrific job of portraying the human and emotional impact of an historical event. It is an accurate portrayal of the impact of the event, even though certain details may be altered to make the song work. So, we listen to the song for what it has to teach, and don't get bogged down by immaterial details. -Joe- |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE SONS OF GRANUAILE (Flanagan) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 May 18 - 03:06 AM Moving on The Emigrations produced the largest number of songs in the repertoire next to love songs, (but the two subjects became inevitably mixed) Most of them were sentimental yearning for home, but a few tackled the subject head on - dealing with the practicalities of the New World Michael ‘Straighty’ Flanagan Inagh You loyal-hearted Irishmen that do intend to roam, To reap the English harvest so far away from home. I’m sure you will provide with us both comrades loyal and true; For you have to fight both day and night with John Bull and his crew. When we left our homes from Ireland the weather was calm and clear. And when we got on board the ship we gave a hearty cheer. We gave three loud cheers for Paddy’s land, the place we do adore, May the heavens smile on every child that loves the shamrock shore. We sailed away all from the quay and ne’er received a shock, Till we landed safe in Liverpool one side of Clarence Dock. Where hundreds of our Irishmen they met us in the town; Then ‘Hurrah for Paddy’s lovely land’, it was the word went round. With one consent away we went to drink strong ale and wine, Each man he drank a favourite toast to the friends he left behind. We sang and drank till the ale house rang dispraising Erin’s foes, Or any man that hates the land where St Patrick’s shamrock grows. For three long days we marched away, high wages for to find. Till on the following morning we came to a railway line. Those navies they came up to us, and loudly they did rail, They cursed and damned for ould Paddy’s lands, and the sons of Granuaile. Up stands one of our Irish boys and says, ‘What do you mean? While us, we’ll work as well as you, and hate a coward’s name. So leave our way without delay or some of you will fall, Here stands the sons of Irishmen that never feared a ball.’ Those navies then, they cursed and swore they’d kill us every man. Make us remember ninety-eight, Ballinamuck and Slievenamon. Blessed Father Murphy they cursed his blessed remains, And our Irish heroes said they’d have revenge then for the same. Up stands Barney Reilly and he knocked the ganger down. ‘Twas then the sticks and stones they came, like showers to the ground. We fought from half past four until the sun was going to set, When O’Reilly says, ‘My Irish boys, I think we will be bet.’ But come with me my comrade boys, we’ll renew the fight once more. We’ll set our foes on every side more desperate than before. We will let them know before we go we’d rather fight than fly, For at the worst of times you’ll know what can we do, but die. Here’s a health then to the McCormicks to O’Donnell and O’Neill, And also the O’Donoghues that never were afraid. Also every Irish man who fought and gained the day And made those cowardly English men - in crowds they ran away. “Irish immigrants fleeing the Famine and the mass evictions were met with prejudice and violence in many of the places they chose as their new homes. This account from Terry Coleman’s ‘Railway Navvies’ gives a vivid description of the reception many of them received when they landed in Britain. It describes the plight of the men who took work as railway navvies in the English/Scots border country: ‘Throughout the previous year the railways had been extending through the English border country and into Scotland. A third of the navvies were Irish, a third Scots, and a third English: that was the beginning of the trouble - easy-going Roman Catholic Irish, Presbyterian Scots, and impartially belligerent English. The Irish did not look for a fight. As the Scottish Herald reported, they camped, with their women and children, in some of the most secluded glades, and although most of the huts showed an amazing disregard of comfort, the hereditary glee of their occupants seemed not a whit impaired. This glee enraged the Scots, who then added to their one genuine grievance (the fact that the Irishmen would work for less pay and so tended to bring down wages) their sanctified outrage that the Irish should regard the Sabbath as a holiday, a day of recreation on which they sang and lazed about. As for the Scots, all they did on a Sunday was drink often and pray occasionally, and it needed only an odd quart of whisky and a small prayer to make them half daft with Presbyterian fervour. They then beat up the godless Irish. The Irish defended themselves and this further annoyed the Scots, so that by the middle of 1845 there was near civil war among the railway labourers. The English, mainly from Yorkshire and Lancashire, would fight anyone, but they preferred to attack the Irish. The contractors tried to keep the men, particularly the Irish and Scots, apart, employing them on different parts of the line, but the Scots were not so easily turned from their religious purposes. At Kinghorn, near Dunfermline, these posters were put up around the town: "Notice is Given that all the Irish men on the line of railway in Fife Share must be off the grownd and owt of the countey on Monday th nth of this month or els we must by the strenth of our armes and a good pick shaft put them off Your humbel servants, Schots men." Letters were also sent to the contractors and sub-contractors. One read: "Sir, - You must warn all your Irish men to be of the grownd on Monday the 11th of this month at 12 o'cloack or els we must put them by forse FOR WE ARE DETERMINED TO DOW IT." The sheriff turned up and warned the Scots against doing anything of the sort. Two hundred navvies met on the beach, but in the face of a warning from the sheriff they proved not so determined to do it, and the Irish were left in peace for a while. But in other places the riots were savage. Seven thousand men were working on the Caledonian line, and 1,100 of these were paid monthly at a village called Locherby, in Dumfriesshire. Their conduct was a great scandal to the inhabitants of a quiet Scottish village. John Baird, Deputy Clerk of the Peace for the county, lamented that the local little boys got completely into the habits of the men - "drinking, swearing, fighting, and smoking tobacco and all those sorts of things". Mr Baird thought that on a pay day, with constant drunkenness and disturbance, the village was quite uninhabitable. A minority of the navvies were Irish, and they were attacked now and again, as was the custom. After one pay day a mob of 300 or 400, armed with pitchforks and scythes, marched on the Irish, who were saved only because the magistrates intervened and kept both sides talking until a force of militia came up from Carlisle, twenty-three miles away.' The writer goes in to explain that the worst of the riots were to follow. This song describes the situation in Britain, specifically in Liverpool; we have never come across it before and can find no trace of it. A similar song ‘Seven of our Irishmen’ (Roud 3104), sung by Straighty and by Pat MacNamara, deals with those who landed in America and were targeted as possible recruits for the U.S. army." Reference: The Railway Navvies, Terry Coleman, 1965. LISTEN HERE Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Joe Offer Date: 16 May 18 - 02:09 AM Well, shoot. I don't know how Phil d'Conch got a bee up his ass, but I guess he did. I worked as a federal investigator in the Central Valley of California for over 20 years, and did many security clearance investigations for many agencies of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, including the Agricultural Marketing Service, which uses marketing orders to regulate the sale of dairy products and fruits and vegetables. I got to know all aspects of Central Valley agriculture quite well - and I had previously done agricultural intelligence work in Berlin in the Army Security Agency. And I came from Wisconsin, another farm state. I've baled hay and milked cows and driven tractors and shoveled manure. And I've read the ag news in Central Valley newspapers every day since 1980. That's why I was so interested in Woody Guthrie's "Deportees," and that's why I have been researching the song since 1996. I read dozens of newspaper accounts of the crash and tracked down and communicated with the principal reporter for the Associated Press. I went to the site of the 1948 plane crash; and I visited the memorial at the mass grave of the victims in Fresno, that I had donated money to erect. These facts are clear:
I have found mention of creosote only in Steinbeck and Guthrie, but it's a likely substance to be used (because it is readily available on farms and is similar to fuel oil in effect) - and it has a more poetic sound than "lime" or "fuel oil." We give "poetic license" to songwriters in such cases, unless we are politically-motivated literalists. And that's the point that applies to this thread. Folk songs, like all literature, cannot be understood by literalists who are interested only in the so-called "facts" of an event. Songs and literature are meant to convey an understanding and appreciation of the emotional and personal impact of an event, not the legal "facts." Whether the produce was mixed with lime (most likely) or creosote is immaterial. Both made it impossible for farmworkers to sell or consume the produce, and that wasn't likely to make farmworkers or their supporters (like Woody and Steinbeck) happy. As for me, I see both sides of the issue - that of the farmer who wants to keep a business alive, and that of the farmworker who wants to supplement family income. I've interviewed dozens of Central Valley farmers and farmworkers, and I respect and sympathize with both. No, I wouldn't expect Woody Guthrie or John Steinbeck to be historians, but they produced literature and song that illustrated their eras and environs very well and gave a human understanding of events that historians often cannot supply. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Harry Rivers Date: 16 May 18 - 01:58 AM History 101: Assessment of Primary Sources Who wrote it? Why did they write it? What was the intended audience? Oh, and don't forget the unwitting testimony . . . . what are they telling us they didn't realise they were telling us? And from there we start to tell our version of History. Folk songs and stories are just another Primary Source; some more useful than others. If you want 'truth', you'll need Philosophy 101 . . . . . shit, that's Indiana Jones! Harry |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: The Sandman Date: 16 May 18 - 12:29 AM Howard your argument does not alter he fact that your statement was inaccurate, the merit of a song is down to the abilty of the song writer,nothing else |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 May 18 - 08:38 PM First Can we drop the hostility please My suggesting the good and great were not angels seem to have trodden on a few toes - good - it was intended to Plenty more where that came from "by his Housekeeper in the form of her letter dismissing the allegations" How can this be considered any more "evidence" than the dozens of local reports or the twenty-odd songs describing his bad behaviour ? How can someone testify that something "never happened" unless the accusations are specified? Her statement amounts no no more than "'is lordship would never do such a thing" Her accusation that the women were to blame for getting themselves into trouble and making it up amount's to little more than the common reaction to all rapes "she 'ad it comin' to 'er your hounors - she wuz a bad lot all round" - classic cap-doffing What else is a woman who relies on sucking up to the gentry for her living going to say? Nobody seems to want to discuss the actual surroundings of the situation and the power of (virtually) life and death these people wielded and the proven way they used it to exile millions and evict many more millions to homelessness and permanent exile Nobody has responded to his feller's reputation as described by his fellow peers - if they said he was bad in the circumstances that prevailed at the e time - he must have been vicious prick. It was a fairly common suggestion that the landed gentry liked to dip their quills in the local inkwells - why not Leitrim? Buck House meeting T.P. O'Connor was a gofer for the National Party and was instrumental, along with the Journalist, Joe Devlin, in setting up the meeting I put it in my original library notes but the staff must have considered it superfluous for an Irish audience "I now note is not an excellent example encapsulating an actual historical event, but a satirical view of an actual historical event." If you believe that satire cannot be "an excellent example encapsulating an actual historical event" then you obviously haven't read Swift's recipe for cooking dead children to feed the poor, or Jaroslav Hasek's 'Good Soldier Schweik' showing how a supposed idiot-soldier used his idiocy to survive a devastating war - or many other such works that use humour to accurately recreate bureaucracy or the waste of human life or military incompetence - Catch 22 is still a classic in my opinion. This song does exactly that - it deals with some of the most complicated stumbling blocks of Home Rule by poking fun at the surroundings of the conference - in seven verses Brilliant in my book I have steered clear of the Grapes of Wrath argument - I've read and heard too much of the whitewashing of The Great depression to be bothered, just as I have, as a worker, been expected to take whatever shit a boss throws at us for as little as he cares to pay, and end up being the criminal when we bother to complain I put up what I believe to be a fair description of the period - if nobody is going to discuss it, it remains the reliable document I believe it to be. If anybody hasn't come across it, MacColl and Seeger published a fascinating monograph entitled 'Shellback' based on interviews with Ben Bright, a welsh seaman who jumped ship in the thirties and became an I.W.W. activist, working with such people as T-Bone Slim and Elizabeth Gurley Flynn - fascinating and inspiring stuff PM me if you have a problem getting it Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST Date: 15 May 18 - 03:44 PM I did, before my first post on the subject, and all roads lead back to… Mudcat Fascinating, Phil - Joe and Mudcat feature in California newspapers of the '30'a and '40's. You must be Dr. Who in real life. As for the rest of your spittle-flecked screed, it has nowt to do with owt. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 15 May 18 - 02:24 PM Nemo: “A search of California newspapers from the Steinbeck/Guthrie era for "Creosote" or "creosote and crops" & other variations might actually turn up something germane. Go for it & report back to the class...” I did, before my first post on the subject, and all roads lead back to… Mudcat, with Joe Offer leading the village parade. David Carter (UK): “Not someone who does their research at the end of a keyboard and gives talks in village halls. Jim Carroll: “Seems this thread if becoming Redneck-Troll infected. Gawduh forbid you should have to communicate with an actual farmer on the subject of farming at some point in your clueless opinionating. Joe should have found beechwood creosote is still an approved food and drug additive (it's not coal tar crosote) but never has been for peaches or any other fruit. It's controlled by the Feds. Marketing orders are from voluntary grower co-ops. They couldn't order denaturing if they wanted to. So-called “excess” table grade fruit is not destroyed. It is down graded. There are no quotas for juicing, canning and sileage. Just because you can eat it, doesn't mean it was grown for you to eat. There are perfectly valid mechanical and manufacturing uses for vegetable oils, vinegar &c that are none of your beeswax. And Joe... and all of Mudcat for all its existance… is, apparently, unaware of that portion of the harvest set aside for the hungry since the Old Testament was new: “And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.” (Leviticus 23:22) If Steinbeck had really cared about human suffering Grapes of Wrath would have been set in Euro-Asia and plenty of more his characters would have to die before "The End." Ask a redneck about the Society of St. Andrew if you actually care about the truth. Avoid Mudcatters like the effing plague. Hate, ignorance and hero worship, what could possibly go wrong? Boy howdy. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Allan Conn Date: 15 May 18 - 07:55 AM I think though it can be important too folk history also has to be questioned also. For instance the slant on the Glencoe Massacre that often comes into it is that it was carried out by "the Campbells" which seems to be not so. It was carried out by a Scottish gvt force. The commander of the troops on the ground was a Campbell and if we are to take it that the muster roll was the same or similar to the muster roll the previous year then a small percentage of the troops were Campbells which amounted to only a handful of Campbell men amongst the total force. So no it doesn't appear to be a clan conflict as such. I suppose it suited the central authorities in Edinburgh to have the finger pointed at those bloody Highlanders killing each other than it being pointed at the real culprits - who were the same said central authorities in Edinburgh. They planned and ordered the whole thing. Some things get fixed in the popular mind though. Same in poetry. For instance Sorley Maclean (arguably the greatest Gaelic poet of the 20thC and campaigner for the language) speaks about the poetry of Mairi Mhor nan Oran who was a poet of the Clearances period. He talks about how in regard to the Skye clearances she lashes out at everyone like the English, the Lowlanders and even the sheep. Everyone that is apart from the people responsible - that is the Highland land owners themselves. Again in regard to Skye he writes "she attacked the English for their doings in Skye when it is clear that not one Clearance in Skye had been made by anyone who had not a name as Gaelic as her own" He continues that she was a great supporter of the crofters but that she had a respect "that made it difficult for her to attack anyone who bore a name that had been great in Skye tradition". From "Ris a' Bhruthaich - the Criticism and Prose Writings of Sorley Maclean" |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 15 May 18 - 07:36 AM Not wishing to take exception Jim but I did read the link you put up very carefully. Here are the names of those mentioned: King George V - attended the conference Charles Stewart Parnell H. H. Asquith - attended the conference Lord Randolph Churchill Andrew Bonar Law - attended the conference Lloyd George - attended the conference John Redmond - attended the conference John Dillon - attended the conference Edward Carson - attended the conference James Craig - attended the conference Lord Lansdowne - attended the conference The Speaker of the House of Commons presided at the conference. Terence MacSwiney Éamon de Valera James McNeill So those being the ONLY names appearing in your link the question still stands - Who is the T.P. mentioned in the song which I now note is not an excellent example encapsulating an actual historical event, but a satirical view of an actual historical event. On the Lord Leitrum thing the only real piece of evidence is the written statement by his Housekeeper in the form of her letter dismissing the allegations as nonsense - everything else is hearsay and unconfirmed gossip. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Howard Jones Date: 15 May 18 - 06:18 AM Dick, I'm not sure what you mean by your reference to "The Manchester Rambler". It's undoubtedly a fine song,but it does not depict the Kinder Trespass itself, although it provides some context for it. It sweeps up what are probably a number of different incidents perhaps involving different people to tell a bigger truth. We are not meant to believe that those words were actually spoken, simply that those were attitudes expressed. Above all it is most certainly not impartial, and all the better for it. As Keith has pointed out, "Glencoe" is a fairly modern song based on historical sources, rather than actual folk history passed down from the event itself. If such stories and songs exist (presumably in Gaelic) they will no doubt tell us what the victims thought about it, but that is not to say that their interpretation of the facts, and especially the circumstances leading up to it, can be relied upon to be correct. No doubt useful and interesting stuff, but inevitably seen from a particular point of view, and perhaps embroidered over the passing centuries. If the Campbells have any songs, I would imagine they celebrate tricking their traditional clan rivals and dealing out righteous retribution to the King's enemies. All evidence of a sort, but not necessarily reliable. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 15 May 18 - 05:21 AM Actually Howard it was me he is accusing of elitism, and he is right to an extent. But the elites whose efforts I am championing are academic elites, they are people working in centres of learning whose work is based upon sound methodology, and which is assessed by their peers through formal review processes. They are not "our betters" or court historians or royal historians of political propagandists or anything like that. In fact the work of real academic historians often dissects the partiality of such people. I would far rather put my trust in people who have a background in historical research than in songwriters, although of course the former may include the latter amongst their many sources. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Howard Jones Date: 15 May 18 - 05:02 AM Jim, I can only conclude that either you have not read my post properly or you have deliberately chosen to misinterpret it. Firstly, you accuse me of elitism. I simply pointed out that looking for evidence is what historians do. What have I written that leads you to think that I do not include your local historians in that? Secondly, you have taken a single phrase and decided that is what I have chosen to believe on the Lord Leitrim matter. I took care to point out that there were several possible interpretations, so why you have picked on this particular one is beyond me. I come at this with an open mind. The question is whether folk history, including songs, can be considered reliable? I remain of the view that they cannot. Stories and songs are likely to be embellished, whether for artistic reasons or to make a particular point. Incidents may get exaggerated or forgotten. Unless the writer has researched it exhaustively they are likely to tell the story from only one point of view. They may provide valuable context, but they cannot be relied upon to report the facts accurately. In the Lord Leitrim example, the existence of the song is evidence that there were allegations and rumours circulating at the time and suggests that these were believed by the local population, or at the very least were sufficiently believable to enter circulation. That is useful in itself from a historical perspective, and as a pointer to a line of enquiry for historians to pursue. However it cannot be relied upon as an accurate report of the facts, without additional corroborating evidence. Songs and stories may aim to tell a bigger truth, but they are under no obligation to represent facts accurately. They are art, not reportage. To say something is true because you heard it in a song is like saying it's true because you read it on the internet. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 May 18 - 04:29 AM That is a Jim McLean song from early 60s. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 May 18 - 04:13 AM Seems pretty accurate Dick - not really disputed anymore Four excellent and very readable surveys by John Prebble include one devoted to The Massacre Jim Carroll |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE MASSACRE OF GLENCOE From: The Sandman Date: 15 May 18 - 04:02 AM Does anyone dispute the accuracy of this song?
They came in a blizzard, we offered them heat |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 May 18 - 03:56 AM "The entire song is absolute nonsense." It represents a satirical view by the man in the street of a very real event which took place on the eve of World War One and, if it hadn't been for that war, would have signalled a turning point in Ireland's history (not necessarily a good one, some believe) The Easter Week uprisings a couple of years later made it's decisions irrelevant anyway If you actually read the historical link to what was put up you would know who TP was - as you appear to not be interested in what others have to say or what the 'man in the street' passed on to is in the form of oral history, I see little point in continuing with you I sense an atmosphere of hostility from you and others towards the idea that "our betters" were anything less than paragons of virtue - very much not the case, I'm afraid As I said, much of Irish history in the latter half of the 19th century has been shunned and manipulated and many of the details have been preserved in songs, tales and oral accounts; as unreliable as they may be, at least we have them. The 1930s 'Schools Project' probably holds more accessible history on certain subjects than do our libraries. I've alredy mentioned The Famine; another example of suppressed formal history is the Easter Week Uprising - massively covered in songs and accounts from the point of view of the rebels After the rising, 15 of the leaders were secretly tried, condemned and executed (without the right to speak on their own behalf or a defence council to represent them) Despite British laws of disclosure, the details of those 'trials' are still not accessible to either researchers or the public. A mass of details of the Rising appeared for the first time two years ago, mainly from newspapers and oral accounts - a century after the events Many, many more remain as inaccessible as they were 100 years ago, locked away in the archives in (I think) Kew Gardens. Can I make it clear - my interest in all this is not political - I am not Irish and I certainly am not a nationalist Four decades of collecting and research has whetted my curiosity as to the importance of songs as history bearers - discussions like this have gone some way to convince me that they are essential in providing a view of the participants that has largely been missed or deliberately ignored - in many cases they are the only accounts we have Lord Leitrim is an excellent example of this Thanks for your last ironic comment Steve - I concur absoluteely Thanks also for the comments from Down Under - a country with a short but eventful history inseparable linked to Britain's and in some ways an essential resource for understanding our own (I regard Hughes's 'The Fatal Shore' a fantastic 'in' to understanding our poaching and transportation repertoire and the Enclosures which inspired them) I still haven't had a reply to my "why" concerning Leitrim - though I appreciate the reference to typos as an indication that I probably won't get one Jim Carroll |
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Subject: Lyr Add: SINKING OF THE REUBEN JAMES From: The Sandman Date: 15 May 18 - 03:32 AM Here is another well-written song based on folk history
SINKING OF THE REUBEN JAMES
Have you heard of a ship called the good Reuben James
Tell me what were their names, tell me what were their names,
Well, a hundred men went down in that dark watery grave
It was there in the dark of that uncertain night
Now tonight there are lights in our country so bright Songwriters: Woody Guthrie |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 15 May 18 - 03:26 AM Rich-joy This from "Hidden Histories" Lies concocted in 1914 to blacken Germany in every way are still circulated today as fact. This False History lives on through the British Court Historians1 who repeat the nonsense. We prove absolutely that while Nurse Edith Cavell – the great British heroine of the war who was executed by a German firing squad in Belgium in 1915 – was indeed a brave patriot, she was secretly and intimately associated with a Belgian spy ring 2 linked to the British Secret Service. Edith Cavell and her Belgian associates helped repatriate hundreds of British and French soldiers who were stranded behind enemy lines in the first months of the war. They also passed vital information about German deployment to the War Office in London 3. But Edith threatened to endanger the secret agreements about food supply by revealing the scandal through he connections with the Times 4. For generations that fact was buried so that her execution would look like an act of brutality by the German commanders against an innocent, humanitarian nurse. The truth is otherwise. 1: What is a British Court Historian? 2: Obviously she was in touch with Belgians resisting the German occupation of their country - she's helping people escape from the Germans. 3: The Belgian spy ring might well have done this, it would come with the job description, but Nurse Edith Cavell would have had little input, working as she did in a hospital far removed from the front line. 4: Secret agreements about food supply by revealing the scandal? Taking your tip and thinking and questioning further causes to ponder exactly what would a 49 year nurse working in a clinic in Brussels would know about any agreement, secret or otherwise about food supply that would be likely to cause any scandal. Her connections with "The Times"? Rather difficult for her doncha think. By all means think and question. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: The Sandman Date: 15 May 18 - 03:19 AM "Bloody Sunday is a good example of a highly emotionally-charged situation where any song about it is going to be coloured by a particular viewpoint. Anyone who was there would have had a different story to tell, and a very different perception of events depending on whether they were republican, loyalist, army, police, journalist or passer-by. They may tell the truth, as they see it, but it could be only part of the truth, and it may be mixed up with propaganda, misunderstandings, rumours and lies. Their songs may make rallying calls for one community or another, they may create and reinforce myths, and they may shed interesting light on different reactions to the event. They are very unlikely to be accurate unbiased reporting and a reliable sourc of facts, and if they were they would probably make very poor songs." Why , then did Cameron, apologise? and as for makin poor songs what a INACCURATE thing to say, the quality of the song depends on the song writer, here is an example of a song written by MacColl that is a fine song,,"The Manchester Rambler", also known as "I'm a Rambler" and "The Rambler's Song", is a song written by the English folk singer Ewan MacColl. It was inspired by his participation in the Kinder trespass, a protest by the urban Young Communist League of Manchester, and was the work that began MacColl's career as a singer-songwriter. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: WARLIKE SEAMEN + NOTTINGHAM & MARS From: GUEST,Observer Date: 15 May 18 - 02:56 AM A couple of examples of the accuracy and reliability of folk history through songs. The subject matter relates to a naval battle fought in 1746 between HMS Nottingham and a French ship the Mars. Under the command of Captain Philip Saumarez, a Guernsey man, Nottingham, while on a cruise in the Soundings, on 11 Oct. he fell in with the French 64-gun ship Mars, and captured her after a two hours' engagement. Quite accurate to date the song as in it Philip Saumaez is being toasted and is very much alive, by the 3rd May 1747 Philip Saumarez was dead, killed in action off Cape Finisterre. WARLIKE SEAMEN (Misinformation and inaccuracies highlighted in italics) Come all you warlike seamen, that to the seas belong I'll tell you of a fight, my boys, on board the Nottingham It was of an Irish captain, his name was Somerville With courage bold, he did control, he played his part so well. Twas on the eighth of June, my boys, when at Spithead we lay On board there came an order, our anchor for to weigh Bound for the coast of Ireland, our orders did run so For us to cruise, and not refuse, against a daring foe. We had not sailed many lengths at sea before a ship we spied She being some lofty Frenchman, come a-bearing down so wide We hailed her of France, my boys, they asked from whence we came Our answer was from Liverpool, and London is our name. Oh pray are you some man of war, or pray, what may you be? Oh then replied our captain, and that you soon shall see Come and strike your English colours, or else you shall bring to Since you're so stout, you shall give out, or else we shall sink you. The first broadside we gave to them, which made them for to wonder. Their mainmast and their rigging came a-rattling down like thunder We drove them from their quarter, they could no longer stay Our guns did roar, we made quite sure we showed them British play. So now we've took that ship, my boys, God speed to us fair wind That we might sail to Plymouth town, if the heavens prove so kind We'll drink a health unto our captain, and all such warlike souls To him we'll drink, and never flinch, out of a flowing bowl. NOTTINGHAM & MARS October 11, 1746 Broadside ballad - Tune the Dolphin Come all you jolly sea men bold a tough old tar I am I'll sing to ye of a fight me boys fought in the Nottingham Twas by a brisk young Captain, Phil Saumarez was his name He was bent with bold intent old England's foes to tame On the fifth day of October our anchor we did weigh And from Plymouth sound me boys we shaped our course away Along the coast of Ireland our orders were to go The seas to cruise and none to refuse but boldly fight the foe We had not been out many days before we chanced to spy A sail all to the westward which drew us up full nigh She hailed us loud in French me boys and asked from whence we came From Plymouth Sound we've just come down and the Nottingham's our name. Are you a man of war they said or a privateer maybe We are a man of war we said and that ye soon shall see So haul up smart your courses and let your ship lie to If you stand out or put about we'll sink you ship and crew The first broadside we let them have we made the rascals quail To see the gallant topmast come rattling down like hail We drove them from their quarters their Captain he frantic grew He cursed our shot that came so hot from the gunners in our crew. We fought them seven glasses when to add to all their fears The shout was raised for boarders and we gave three ringing cheers Down came her flag we took her, her name it was the Mars The French be damned they never can stand a fight with British Tars And should you once more enquire our gallant Captain's name He was young Phil Saumarez from Guernsey's isle he came Commanded the brave Nottingham and beat the cowardly Mars Let every man stand true to his guns and salute those British Tars So “Warlike Sailor” would appear to be a load of jumbled, inaccurate nonsense, while “Nottingham & Mars” ticks all the boxes (If you visit Sausmarez Manor on the Island of Guernsey there is a hand written copy of the song Nottingham and Mars on display.). |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: rich-joy Date: 14 May 18 - 10:03 PM I was recently sent a lengthy - but eye-opening - essay by the “Hidden History” scholars, Jim Macgregor and Gerry Docherty, regarding the weapon of “Fake History” and also detailing the hiding and/or destruction of vast quantities of files pertaining to the World Wars and other conflicts, esp by Britain and America. [ viz George Orwell : “Who controls the past controls the future …… The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.”] It’s well worth a read (later - grab a cuppa!)*** Like me, you may be outraged, but not really surprised (and as a Baby Boomer, I was fed a steady diet of WWII propaganda via British and American films/movies and also stories of the greatness and goodness of our glorious British Empire!) Sadly, the oftimes morally bankrupt actions and views of some bureaucrats, politicians, media moghuls, aristocracy, clergy, even academics and scientists, et al, have shown that they cannot be trusted to present an accurate recording of our history. So (getting back to the Thread’s original purpose), I have no problem considering as valid, the viewpoint of “the man in the street” or one “working at the coalface” – e.g. the ballad writer and the “folk” singer - and the stories of Joe the shepherd, having a bevvy down the pub. Class and education – and manners – do not maketh the man. Upper class villains are still villains. And they fully understand that the Truth will not set them free! Cheers, R-J (Down Under) *** http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/48862.htm PS Hope the glam and glitz and the gush of the Royal Wedding between Britain and America is keeping you preoccupied. Anything to stop you thinking and questioning further. :)) [ “Glamour” a variant of Scottish gramarye "magic, enchantment, spell” ] |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 May 18 - 05:31 PM >>>An historian to me is someone in an academic department making a submission to Unit of Assessment 30 of the 2014 Research Excellence Framework. And writing peer-reviewd papers in respected journals.<<< And of course these people never have any personal agendas or prejudices and are completely free to publish what they like without having to please their superiors! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 14 May 18 - 05:02 PM "The Buckingham Palace Meeting" - That Jim Carroll thinks is a perfect example of an encapsulated piece of history in song No idea who the character referred to a T.P. is but the problem is where to start in detailing the errors and inaccuracies contained in this song, it certainly does not encapsulate any event in history. In July 1914 no-one would have heard of Eamon de Valera. The entire song is absolute nonsense. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 14 May 18 - 04:34 PM David Irving is not and never has been an academic. He has never held an academic position. He has never even completed a degree (ironically the one he started was in Physics). He is absolutely an "armature". In fact you might well describe him as a folk historian. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 14 May 18 - 03:00 PM "Thank god for armatures " and don't forgetthank goodness for the stators quo |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 May 18 - 02:50 PM "An historian to me is someone in an academic " Academic elitism I'm afraid Dave Thank god for armatures if David Irving is among those you come up with AS very few "Historians" chose not to comment on Leitrim's shenanigans that the lorrd for amateurs and victim statements - otherwise we'd never know what our betters got up to inn our name Sorry - still didn't get an answer to my question - WHY? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 14 May 18 - 01:48 PM An historian to me is someone in an academic department making a submission to Unit of Assessment 30 of the 2014 Research Excellence Framework. And writing peer-reviewd papers in respected journals. Or the equivalent in their own country if they are not in the UK. Not someone who does their research at the end of a keyboard and gives talks in village halls. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 May 18 - 11:52 AM "Jim, finding evidence is the work of historians. " That's a bit elitist isn't it Howard Did you know, for instance Beckett Whitehead was a local historian ? Rural England, Scotland and Ireland are full of such people - we have speakers at our local history group regularly. If you believe it is "a pack of lies to blacken his name" then you have oto do as wall historians, amateur or professional do, and gather as much information and, when you have it yo have to assemble it - and then you have to put it in context of the times these things occurred. This was the period when many thousands of FAMILIES were being driven out of their homes and their homes destroyed - do humane, businessmen and politicians strike us as the sort of people who would stop short of seducing - or even raping young women ! You can shift this to any part of the Empire where these things were common - the Highland Clearance brought about similar situations. Out of curiosity - why do you choose not to believe it - unlikely, impossible - out-of-character This would be the time when wealthy men were roaming the East end of London looking for young women victims - even children Sorry - beyond me completely Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 May 18 - 11:35 AM >>They may tell the truth, as they see it, but it could be only part of the truth, and it may be mixed up with propaganda, misunderstandings, rumours and lies.........may make rallying calls for one community or another, they may create and reinforce myths, and they may shed interesting light on different reactions to the event. They are very unlikely to be accurate unbiased reporting and a reliable source of facts<< Excellent description of the British Media, Howard. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Howard Jones Date: 14 May 18 - 10:29 AM Jim, finding evidence is the work of historians. It is possible that every word of the Lord Leitrim ballad is true. Or it may all be a pack of lies to blacken his name. Or the truth may lie somewhere in between, or somewhere else entirely. My point is that the song - any song - cannot be trusted to tell the unvarnished truth. We simply don't know the real motivation of the author (although we might guess) or where he got his information from, or how reliable that was. For a song, that doesn't matter. For a historical source it does. The song is part of a historical picture but it cannot be trusted as a source of facts. Bloody Sunday is a good example of a highly emotionally-charged situation where any song about it is going to be coloured by a particular viewpoint. Anyone who was there would have had a different story to tell, and a very different perception of events depending on whether they were republican, loyalist, army, police, journalist or passer-by. They may tell the truth, as they see it, but it could be only part of the truth, and it may be mixed up with propaganda, misunderstandings, rumours and lies. Their songs may make rallying calls for one community or another, they may create and reinforce myths, and they may shed interesting light on different reactions to the event. They are very unlikely to be accurate unbiased reporting and a reliable source of facts, and if they were they would probably make very poor songs. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 14 May 18 - 10:21 AM Does soupercalifragilisticexpialidocious apply? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 May 18 - 10:20 AM "Well I see Jim has his dirty thumb in the soup again" Seems this thread if becoming Redneck-Troll infected Maybe I should have put it below the line If you have an argument against what I said, feel free to put in instead of lurking in the shadows Why do you people do this can't you play in the garden because it's raining? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,paperback Date: 14 May 18 - 09:33 AM Well I see Jim has his dirty thumb in the soup again |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Derrick Date: 14 May 18 - 09:23 AM How reliable is any history? It is often said that history is written by the victors ie any account is coloured by the authors point of view.They emphasise what they feel is important and downplay other things or leave them out. Folk history is often a mixture of true facts that are omitted from the "official" history and "I heard from my mate, who heard from someone who said he was there". In other words all anybody can do is read the most reliable and unbiased histories and hope to get a reasonable picture of what really happened. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: I DON'T MIND IF I DO From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 May 18 - 08:20 AM Hard to know where this "additional evidence' is going to come from Howard In the case of Lord Leitrim, although he was condemned by his fellow members of The House of Lords, scarcely anything is written about him so we largely have to rely on passed-down experiences When you consider it took a far more open society over thirty years to acknowledge that the 1972 Bloody Sunday massacre was unlawful and the consequences of that event are still being squabbled over, what chance do we have of knowing what happened over a century and a half ago in a rigidly class-bound situation in one of the colonies? I think this is a perfect example of an encapsulated piece of history in song THIS ALMOST FORGOTTEN PIECE OF HISTORY IS ANOTHER King George met Joe Devlin a short time ago, And he said ‘Good morning, how do you do, Joe? Will you drop into breakfast, and see Mary, too?’ ‘Oh, be God then’, said Joe, ‘I don’t mind if I do.’ To the palace they rambled – T.P. he was there, John Dillon he sat on a plush-covered chair, ‘Will you all’, says Queen Mary, ‘have some Irish stew?’ Oh they roared in one voice, ‘We don’t mind if we do.’ ‘Sinn Feiners’, said Georgie, ‘are spoiling my plan. DeValera, their leader, he seems a strong man. Will you tell him his flag should be red, white and blue?’ ‘It’s no use’, says T.P., ‘he won’t mind if I do.’ ‘Behind prison walls they should all be’, said Joe. ‘When you had them in there sure you let them all go. To spread their sedition each county around, And to knock out the men with the four hundred pounds.’ ‘That’s right’, said T.P., ‘I agree with you there. The rod on the rebels, oh Georgie, don’t spare! The whole world over sure they’ve knocked me flat, I am back from the States with a big empty hat.’ The flag of Sinn Fein everywhere it do fly, And ‘Down with the Party’ is now Ireland’s cry. The green, white and orange, alas and alack, Has taken the place of the old Union Jack. ‘Recruiting’, said Mary, ‘is now very low. To the trenches in Flanders the Irish won’t go. Why not try conscription – oh John, what says you?’ ‘Oh be God then’, said Joe, ‘there’ll be hell if we do.’ “According to historical accounts the 1910 British General Election left the Liberals as a minority government dependent upon the votes of Irish Nationalist parliamentarians so, in order to gain their support, Prime Minister Herbert Asquith, introduced legislation that would give Ireland Home Rule; the bill was opposed by the Conservatives and Unionists. Desperate to avoid the prospect of Civil War in Ireland, King George V called a meeting of all parties at Buckingham Palace in July 1914 in an attempt to negotiate a settlement. After four days the conference ended without an agreement so, on 18 September 1914, the King, having considered vetoing the legislation, gave his assent to the Home Rule Bill after it had been passed by Westminster. Its implementation was postponed due to the outbreak of the First World War. Joseph Devlin, mentioned in the song, was an Irish journalist and influential nationalist politician, a member of the British parliament for the Irish Parliamentary Party. This wonderful parody commemorates ‘The Buckingham Palace Meeting’.” LISTEN HERE Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Howard Jones Date: 14 May 18 - 06:17 AM I am no historian, but I suspect folk songs are often fairly unreliable as historical sources, at least without additional evidence. Firstly, even impartial and entirely honest witnesses may report the same event differently, as no once can see the whole. Creators of folk songs may not be impartial, they may be prejudiced because of their social class or position, because of more overt political opinions, or because they have a personal interest in the event or people involved. Secondly, the overriding imperative of a song is to tell a good story, so if facts have to be changed to achieve that, or simply to make a rhyme, that's artistically acceptable. In the case of Lord Leitrim, there seems to be some uncertainty over the motives for his murder and it seems more likely to have been political, but the allegations of 'droit du seigneur' seem to be unfounded. However it's a good story to tell about an unpopular landlord (today it would be alleged he was a paedo) and no doubt the audience were more than willing to believe it. To accept the ballad at face value is dangerous, as we cannot know without additional evidence whether it simply reflects local rumours, may even be the source of them, or is in fact the truth, or a partial version of it That's not to say folk songs cannot play a part, they may contain some truth, and they may show how an event was perceived by the public. However they cannot be treated as reliable evidence. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Nemo Date: 13 May 18 - 02:22 PM Regarding The Great Creosote War Of 2018, there are any number of searchable, on-line newspaper historical databases available these days. A search of California newspapers from the Steinbeck/Guthrie era for "Creosote" or "creosote and crops" & other variations might actually turn up something germane. Go for it & report back to the class.. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 May 18 - 01:11 PM Sorry to bring this up but may as well get it out of the way I believe the "Balladeers" are largely the people who make songs because they happen, Steve argues that they are largely those who make a living from making songs Don't want to make an issue of this here but I think there is an essential difference Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 May 18 - 01:02 PM Absolutely, Obs, but the twisting done from the bottom up pales into insignificance alongside the twisting done from top down. Another factor is we make our own decisions generally on what ballads contain, but the media is believed by an awful lot of gullible people. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 May 18 - 12:17 PM "In the song about LL there is scant mention of his alleged misconduct with young girls." There are twenty or so other songs an him some mention his sexual appetites "the mythical "Droit du seigneur" THere is a great deal of local information about it from simple farmers to the clergy - it is hardly something the establishment were going to publicise Even Leitrim's peers considered him a "bad lot" As for the rest - what an incredibly sweeping statement - masses have been written about the murderous activities of Gilles de Rais, the Hellfire Clubs, - Havelock Ellis mantions the practice, writers like Gershon Legman dealt with the practice in detail.... THere's quite a readable book on the sexual proclivities of our betters 'Love Lockes Out' by James Cleugh This seems to be an attempted public whitewashing of history Much of the evidence is anecdotal - mainly contemporary to the events - the gentry were hardly likely too allow their dirty linen to be washed in public Jim Caaarroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 13 May 18 - 11:26 AM The balladeers also do their fair share of "twisting reality" and hiding/ignoring important information Steve. In the song about LL there is scant mention of his alleged misconduct with young girls. There is absolutely no evidence to support the allegations leveled against him over the mythical "Droit du seigneur" also known as jus primae noctis. There is no evidence of the right being exercised in medieval Europe, overall, medieval jus primae noctis can be considered a historical fiction fabricated after that era. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 May 18 - 11:04 AM >>How do you know what you are not being told if you were not there, or unless you have not studied the facts of the matter from all perspectives?<< Observer. Our past (and present) gives us numerous examples of those in positions of power manipulating the media by twisting reality and hiding/ignoring important information, among other crimes. We are at least more aware of this nowadays, partly because of the increase in different types of media. In the past ballads have been used in a similar way, but at least many of them, give a different point of view, even if that can also be distorted. A man in the street can write a ballad but he can't influence what is printed in the national press or what is spewed out by the BBC. >>Only some of the people.<< Okay I meant the common people, those not in a position of power. 'Whistleblowers' are still treated abominably by the powers that be. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ? From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 May 18 - 08:26 AM Incidentally My comments were not politically "subjective" - the facts I put forward are an undisputed matter of history My point was about the availability and flow of information - a gap filled by the song repertoire The efforts to limit information is pretty plain from the number of books on the famine, but is underlined by the fact that, despite large swathes of Ireland being Irish-speaking a conscious effort was being made to suppress the language We have recorded a number of accounts of children being given the "stick" treatment at school - a short stick was hung around the necks of pupils and each time they were heard speaking Irish, a notch was put in it At the end of the week, the pupil received the indicated number of strokes of the cane What is this if it is not an attempt to control expression of opinion ? Jim Carroll |
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