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Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?

Jim Carroll 22 May 18 - 08:17 PM
David Carter (UK) 22 May 18 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,Observer 22 May 18 - 03:34 PM
The Sandman 22 May 18 - 12:30 PM
Jim Carroll 21 May 18 - 03:21 PM
GUEST,Harry Rivers 21 May 18 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,Observer 21 May 18 - 03:01 PM
Jim Carroll 21 May 18 - 02:50 PM
GUEST,Harry Rivers 21 May 18 - 02:37 PM
David Carter (UK) 21 May 18 - 02:19 PM
The Sandman 21 May 18 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 19 May 18 - 01:18 PM
Howard Jones 18 May 18 - 05:06 AM
Jim Carroll 18 May 18 - 02:59 AM
GUEST,Observer 18 May 18 - 02:20 AM
Jack Campin 17 May 18 - 12:28 PM
Jim Carroll 17 May 18 - 09:57 AM
Howard Jones 17 May 18 - 09:14 AM
Jim Carroll 17 May 18 - 08:33 AM
David Carter (UK) 17 May 18 - 06:44 AM
Howard Jones 17 May 18 - 04:43 AM
Jim Carroll 17 May 18 - 03:26 AM
David Carter (UK) 17 May 18 - 03:12 AM
GUEST,Harry Rivers 16 May 18 - 05:29 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 16 May 18 - 04:08 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 16 May 18 - 04:04 PM
David Carter (UK) 16 May 18 - 03:38 PM
GUEST,Harry Rivers 16 May 18 - 03:30 PM
David Carter (UK) 16 May 18 - 03:03 PM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,Harry Rivers 16 May 18 - 10:09 AM
Howard Jones 16 May 18 - 07:43 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 07:22 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 07:12 AM
GUEST,Observer 16 May 18 - 07:07 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 06:44 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 06:14 AM
GUEST,Observer 16 May 18 - 05:37 AM
David Carter (UK) 16 May 18 - 04:54 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 04:18 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,Observer 16 May 18 - 03:40 AM
Joe Offer 16 May 18 - 03:21 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 03:06 AM
Joe Offer 16 May 18 - 02:09 AM
Harry Rivers 16 May 18 - 01:58 AM
The Sandman 16 May 18 - 12:29 AM
Jim Carroll 15 May 18 - 08:38 PM
GUEST 15 May 18 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 15 May 18 - 02:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 18 - 08:17 PM

"Academic historians write academic papers"
Laargely for other academics - a totally incestuous exercise
Take six histories on one subject and you are quite likely to arrieve at twice that many conclusions.
History is a balance of facts and analysis - quite often, when the facts correspond their analyses clash a major interest of mine is the political history of the late 19th/20th century of Europe
I am now on my (at least - lost count) 20th major work on the left movements of the early twentieth century
All contain valuable information, few agree overall
In the end, you make up your mind base on the sum total of all, plus your own understanding, on both factual and philosophical understanding of the subject
Unless you come into these subjects at 'Ladybird Books' level, that is what you need to do.
For 150 years, the history of the Irish Famine lay dormant, for political/social reasons
Since the 150th anniversary in 1995, the subject has blossomed, and continues to do so.
Governments and institutions protect themselves by setting time limits to which they can legally restrict public access to certain information
Without naming names (for fear of closing this thread), despite that time now being long expired, one Government has not so long ago recalled a large number of documents regarding a major historical political figure
No historian is free of such restrictions
There is an aura of supposed unbiased purity surrounding formal historians which needs bursting
All historians come to their subjects burdened by often deliberate misinformation and prejudices of their own and past generations, just like Sinbad was burdened by The Old Man of the Sea
Like Sinbad, they need to rid themselves of that burden if they are going to make sense of their subjects
In this respect, formal history is no more reliable than is folk history (in many ways, probably less, as folk history is subject to no restrictions
Jim Carroll

PS
A favourite passage of mine describing the function of History - From James Stephens's Irish Faairy Stories (1920)
Once, as they rested in a chase, a debate arose among the Fianna as to what was the finest music in the world.
‘Tell us that’ said Finn, turning to Oisin.
‘The cuckoo calling from the tree that is highest in the hedge,’ cried his merry son.
‘A good sound’, said Finn. ‘And you, Oscar,’ he asked, what is to your mind the finest of music?’
‘The top of music is the ring: of a spear on a shield’, cried the stout lad.
‘It is a good sound’, said Finn.
And the other champions told their delight the belling of a stag across water, the baying of a tuneful pack heard in the distance, the song of a lark, the laughter of a gleeful girl, or the whisper of a moved one.
‘They are good sounds all,’ said Finn.
‘Tell us, chief,’ one ventured, ‘what do you think’.
‘The music of what happens,’ said great Finn, ‘that is the finest music in the world’.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 May 18 - 04:18 PM

Academic historians write academic papers and publish them in journals like these ones. They also write books. Their publications are peer reviewed, cited by others, sometimes supportively, sometimes critically. In the UK, their work is also reviewed for the Research Excellence Framework. They do not write for establishment or other figures, whether in the UK or France. The situation in the 18th and 19th centuries, well I cannot say so much about that. But I know that academic historians now, as opposed to folk historians like David Irving, have standards of objectivity and transparency which they must meet as a condition of their academic employment.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 22 May 18 - 03:34 PM

Official Establishment History is written by Academic historians, since these academics CANNOT agree on who were the victors, historically their work becomes unreliable, these academic historians write french and english history, and cannot agree, that makes their work unreliable.

I hate to disabuse you Sandman but most history, "official", "establishment", or otherwise is actually written by "academic" historians all of whom have studied history and know what is required in terms of objective research and analysis to arrive at whatever conclusions they reach. I would love to hear from you which academic historians declare that Napoleon won the Napoleonic Wars.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 18 - 12:30 PM

Official Establishment History is written by Academic historians, since these academics CANNOT agree on who were the victors, historically their work becomes unreliable, these academic historians write french and english history, and cannot agree, that makes their work unreliable.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 18 - 03:21 PM

My apologies Harry - responded in a hurry and misread your question
Lousy at multi-tasking
Teribus -
"The Warlike Sailor" and "The Nottingham & Mars".
Despite the few who wish it was - Broadside History is not 'Folk History
Te folk tended to comment on the results of war on those who were forced to fight it rather than war itself anyway
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: GUEST,Harry Rivers
Date: 21 May 18 - 03:05 PM

I sometimes wonder if contributors to Mudcat can actually read because they seldom bother to do so.

If half of you knew half as much as you think you know, you'd be dangerous.

I'm not going to waste any more of my time.

Adieu.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 21 May 18 - 03:01 PM

David Carter has pointed out the major flaw in The Sandman's argument. In researching any event in history a vast array of sources written from different perspectives are studied in detail - the "Establishment and Official history" represents only ONE of those perspectives.

"Folk History IS RELATED BY THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE, and who do not have a vested interest in using it as government propoganda, and in my experience is less unreliable than the Establishment official history."

Robert Burns wrote a song that recalls the events relating to the Battle of Sherrifmuir fought in November 1715. Burns actually talked to two people who fought in the battle (One who fought on the Government side and the other who fought on the Jacobite side), he also talked to someone who had stood and watched the battle from afar (This was a battle that Rob Roy MacGregor "sat out" having arrived too late to take part in it). Those three people that Burns talked to "WHO WERE THERE" all gave markedly different accounts of what they saw and experienced as individuals. Go to the location of the battle and you can instantly see why. The perceptions were that the right flank of the Jacobite Army defeated to left flank of Argyll's Army, the right flank of Argyll's Army absolutely trounced the left flank of the Jacobite Army, the action fought by the centres of both was very inconclusive as neither side could determine what was happening to their respective rights and lefts. So from the song written on the accounts of people WHO WERE THERE tells you nothing, so this particular piece of FOLK HISTORY is not so much unreliable as being totally useless.

See further up in the comparison between "The Warlike Sailor" and "The Nottingham & Mars". Many examples exist illustrating horrendous errors in folk history as portrayed in song. I have yet to come across any lyric of any folk song that corrects history.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 18 - 02:50 PM

"Now, would you categorise EP Thompson as an Establishment historian? "
Neither Thomson not marx were 'Folk Historians'
We have a recording of a lecture he gave in Birmingham where he acknowledges his indebtedness to 'Folk History'
Marx was an economist - Fred Engles was the historian (but not a folkie) - can't wait to see the film if it ever moves further West than Dublin
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: GUEST,Harry Rivers
Date: 21 May 18 - 02:37 PM

Sandman,

If you can't say who wrote it ("An impossible question Harry and getting more so as time passes"), how do you know, definitively, they they were there?

"Folk history IS RELATED BY THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE" . . .   really?

Now, would you categorise EP Thompson as an Establishment historian?

What about Karl Marx?

Harry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 May 18 - 02:19 PM

Thats why we have academic historians who can analyse the reliability of all of the contemporary sources, and reach a balanced, if not necessarily final, view.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 18 - 02:11 PM

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:36 PM

"That's why we start with "Who wrote it?"."
An impossible question Harry and getting more so as time passes.
Far easier to ask "who does it represent"
Jim Carrolll
Establishment and Official history represents the establishment point of view. French Establishment history represents the French government at the time it was written,   English establishment history represents the English government at the time it was written., AND YETCAN THEY CONTRADICT EACH OTHER THUS MAKING THEM UNRELIABLE
My Nephew went to school first in England and then in France, AND DISCOVERED that they both had won the same wars, the conclusion to this that Establishment history is unreliable
Folk History IS RELATED BY THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE, and who do not have a vested interest in using it as government propoganda, and in my experience is less unreliable than the Establishment official history.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 May 18 - 01:18 PM

Me: "Mentions linking Guthrie's “creosote dumps” lyric to crop poisoning, Federal subsidies, prices &c first appear here on Mudcat,..."

Minor correction: It appears Joe may posted, or provided info, to Google Groups or another folk site in the late 1990s before Mudcat. He would know better than I.

Two blunt questions Joe:

how long have you been accusing American farmers and farm workers of "creosote dumping," or whatever, and

have you ever done a proper fact check before now?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 May 18 - 05:06 AM

"My main objection was you attributing motives to me I do not have"

No more so than you did with me, Jim, but let's leave it there.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 18 - 02:59 AM

"Band" isn't a folk song and was written many decades after the event
I don't think it attempted to convey anything other than the emotional and physical effects of war, which is what, in my opinion, makes it a good song
The main value of the songs we have been discussing is that they were mainly made while the 'corpses were still warm' so to speak and the represent views based on being there, views that are seldom if ever covered by formal histories.
Some were deliberately made for a purpose; a case in point being 'Patrick Sheehan' created by author, Charles Kickham to discourage Irishmen from enlisting to fight in British wars
It was a work of fiction, but it was based on the experiences of a former soldier
It was made when the author observed an ex-soldier who ha been blinded at Sebastapol reduced to begging on the streets of Dublin because his army pension had expired - a song describing a peiod of history rathe than actual events.
Apart from acting as a propaganda piece, it also forced the authorities to review their policy on pensions
Jim Carroll

Patrick Sheehan (Laws J11; Roud 983)
Tom Lenihan
Knockbrack, Miltown Malbay
Recorded 1977
Carroll Mackenzie Collection        

Tom Lenihan
My name is Patrick Sheehan, and my years are thirty-four;
Tipperary is my native place, not far from Galtymore;
I came of honest parents but now they are laid low
And many a pleasant day I spent in the Glen of Aherlow.

My father died, he closed his eyes outside our cabin door;
The landlord and the sheriff, too, were there the day before;
And then my loving mother, and sisters three also,
Were forced to go with broken hearts from the Glen of Aherlow.

For three long months, in search of work, I wandered far and near;
I went into the poorhouse to see my mother dear.
The news I heard near broke my heart; but still, in all my woe,
I blessed the friends that made their graves in the Glen of Aherlow.

Bereft of home, and kith and kin with plenty all around;
I stayed within my cabin, and slept upon the ground.
But cruel as my lot was, I ne'er did hardship know
Till I joined the English army, far away from Aherlow.

‘Rise up there,’ says the corporal, ‘you lazy Irish hound,
Why don’t you see, you sleepy dog, the call to arms sound?’
Alas I had been dreaming of days long, long ago.
I awoke before Sebastopol, but not in Aherlow.

I grouped [groped] to find my rifle, how dark I thought the night;
Oh, blessed God, it was not dark; it was the broad daylight;
And when I found that I was blind, my tears began to flow;
I longed for even a pauper’s grave in the Glen of Aherlow.

Oh, Blessed Virgin Mary, mine is a mournful tale,
A poor blind prisoner here I am in England’s dreary jail;
Struck blind within the trenches where I never feared the foe,
And now I'll never see again my own sweet Aherlow.

Dear Irish youths, dear countrymen, take heed in what I say,
And if you join the English ranks you'll surely rue the day,
Whenever you are tempted a-soldiering to go,
Remember poor blind Sheehan from the Glen of Aherlow.

Conversation after the song between Tom Lenihan, Pat Mackenzie and Jim Carroll:
Tom: Patrick Sheehan is a ballad I bought from Bully Nevin years ago.
Jim: Yeah, so it was on the ballads?
Tom: It was on the ballads.

“‘Patrick Sheehan’ was written by author Charles Kickham (1826-1882) under the pseudonym Darby Ryan Junior, and was printed in 'The Kilkenny Journal' in October 1857. Its purpose was to protest the arrest in Dublin of a veteran soldier of that name who had been blinded in the trenches before Sebastopol and had been discharged on a pension of sixpence a day; at the time of his arrest the pension had expired. The song became very popular and was soon to be heard all over Ireland. It was said to have shamed the authorities into awarding Sheehan a life pension of a shilling a day. It has been found in America and as far afield as Australia. There appears to have been only one English version, got from a singer in Portsmouth Workhouse in 1907, taken down by George Gardiner. We recorded incomplete sets from several Travellers and full versions from Vincie Boyle and Martin Reidy."

Reference:
Songs of Irish Rebellion, Georges-Denis Zimmerman.
The Constant Lovers; Selections from the Hammond and Gardiner collection , Frank Purslow (ed).
Jim Carroll
See also
Patrick Sheehan sung by Vincie Boyle

LISTEN HERE


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 18 May 18 - 02:20 AM

"describe all the mistakes you can find in The Band Played Waltzing Matilda".

That Professsor set a really easy question/assignment Jack and if he expected three pages from the first verse, you'd get double that from the second.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 May 18 - 12:28 PM

Somebody here once reported that an Australian history professor once ste as an assignment or exam question, "describe all the mistakes you can find in The Band Played Waltzing Matilda". The students were expected to get about three pages just from the first verse.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:57 AM

My main objection was you attributing motives to me I do not have
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:14 AM

Jim, I think you are missing my point. I am not trying to prove or disprove the allegations against Lord Leitrim. I am trying to answer the question posed by this thread, "How reliable is Folk History ?"

My conclusion on your views is based on what you have written, but you are going from the general to the specific. Yes there is plenty of actual evidence that the landlord class behaved appallingly, including their treatment of women. There are allegations, rumours and gossip about a specific individual. Taken together, on the balance of probabilities it is not unreasonable to believe that those rumours may be true about him. But believing is not knowing. What we cannot say is that those rumours, even (perhaps especially) when set out in song or passed down the generations by word of mouth, can be relied upon to any significant extent as confirmation that they are actually true. Neither can we say that there is not some basis of truth there either.

The same is true of any folk history. This is how legends arise.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 08:33 AM

"the question is how reliable are they? "
They are relaiable as confirmation that they probably happened aand that the information contained within is acceptable as an account of what happened to the community
"Your assumption that the allegations against Lord Leitrim are true are based on your prejudice against his class,"
That is an assumption on your part about me - I don't think we've ever met or discussed the matter
I have neen con
versant with the situation following the famine in Ireland for most of my life, from family background and from studying the period
There is little argument that that period was brutish and inhuman and that the consequences for the people of Ireland - that is beyond dispute
That landlords behaved as is claimed of Leitrim is part of the local history o my chosen home - common knowledge
Who knows the truth of the 'droit du seigneur' accusations, and when it comes down to it, what does it matter if a landlord took women based on an acncient right or just an exercise of power?
Either way, the woman endes up raped - in a period that talked about girls being "ruined" by such behaviour that was a catastophic event to someone who would quite possibly be ostracised for 'allowing' such things to happen to her
The Magdalene Laundries were full of raped girls
There can be no dobt that people in power debauched women at a whim - is seems an awfull fuss is being made about whether they did it formally, as of right - either way, they took advantage of their positions
I can't file at present, but there are a large number of songs on the same subject all similar in their description of Leitrim's behaviour
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 May 18 - 06:44 AM

Broadsides for which the author is known, either because the name is printed on the sheet or through other means is what I mean't.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 May 18 - 04:43 AM

Jim, it may well be local testimonies are the only sources available, the question is how reliable are they? This is not singling them out, all historical sources must be assessed for reliability.

Your assumption that the allegations against Lord Leitrim are true are based on your prejudice against his class, which is not unjustified given actual historical evidence of landlords' behaviour and attitudes at that time, together with the number of similar allegations made about him. No smoke without fire. On a balance of probabilities, the allegations are believable. That does not mean they are true.

It is likewise well-recorded that members of the upper classes would frequently take advantage of lower class women, especially those in their households over whom they held most power (nothing much has changed there). Again, on a balance of probabilities this is entirely believable. However 'droit du seigneur' is a very specific form of abuse which goes way beyond seducing parlourmaids on the billiard table.

The original ballad refers simply to his debauchery, and only in passing as a character defect rather than the specific motive for the murder. The suggestion of droit du seigneur came from the singer from whom it was recorded, 76 years after the events in question. He could have had no direct knowledge of them, and who knows how many mouths the story had passed through before it reached him? How reliable can that testimony be?

Droit du seigneur would have been so unusual and so outrageous that if this was alleged about him it is perhaps surprising that the song does not explicitly mention it. Calling him a debaucher hardly covers it.

Leitrim does seem to have been an exceptionally nasty piece of work, which makes it entirely believable that he might be guilty. Hearsay gossip after three quarters of a century is not reliable evidence of it.

To avoid you jumping to conclusions again, I am not defending him. I am simply saying that evidence is lacking.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 03:26 AM

Sorry lads
Broadides are far from reliable as historical documents - assuming the songs have made it to the prsses anyway - in the case of Leitrim, few if any did
All "historical accuracy" depends on access to the original information - oif that is not available, the most reliable sources we have are the local testimonies in whatever form they reach us - and a touch of logic, of course.
There is no reason in the world not to believe Lord Leitrim behaved as hr did - they were all at it
Access to local women ws a perk of the job, but it was also a display of power over your sujects - a way of reminding them who they were
Surely the clerical abuse revelations have shown that (the first reference to clerical abuse was made at the time The Book of Kells was being written)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 May 18 - 03:12 AM

Absolutely they should Harry, and I think that the only way that this can happen is if there is a verifiable broadside kept somewhere like the Bodleian, and that historians know who the writer is and they can assess their reliability in the same way as they would assess any other manuascript.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: GUEST,Harry Rivers
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:29 PM

David,

All I am trying to say is: if folk songs are being used as historical sources, they should be submitted to the same vigorous, crtitcal appraisal as all sources for history; and, authenticity should not be assumed even if the lyric resides in an august institution such as the National Library of China.

And I'm done.

Harry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:08 PM

Fake news:
Michigan Farmers Forced to Destroy Edible Cherries to Prop Up Imports?

True: Michigan cherry farmer Marc Santucci destroyed 14 percent of his 2016 crop due to cherry industry limits on the supply of marketable cherries.

False: Cherry farmers requested they be covered by a USDA marketing order (it was not imposed on them), the order was implemented to stabilize the volatile cherry market (not to "protect imports"), and farmers are not required to destroy surplus cherries.


Ver$u$ everyday reality of farming:
Johnston said that in the past, he's had to sell as many as 75,000 40-pound boxes of navel oranges to juice makers, getting about 50 cents a box, because quotas prevented him from selling them as fresh fruit, for which he gets about $8 a box.
[17 May 1994 LA Times article on demise of Sunkist's Depression era quota system.]

Note: Insult to injury, poor farmer Santucci had to pick up all the cherries after the reporters left or face an illegal dumping citation to boot. Farmer Johnston got paid and we got juiced. Happy HAZOPing!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:04 PM

Mystery guest: “Fascinating, Phil - Joe and Mudcat feature in California newspapers of the '30'a and '40's.

Other way round. The “folk history” is absent from the document record until the 1990s and Mudcat. I searched, for anything, anytime even remotely related to:

“The crops are all in and the peaches are rott'ning,
The oranges piled in their creosote dumps."

are another protest by Guthrie. At the time, government policies paid farmers to destroy their crops in order to keep farm production and prices high. Guthrie felt that it was wrong to render food inedible by poisoning it in a world where hungry people lived.”
[song wiki, check the footnote.]

Mentions linking Guthrie's “creosote dumps” lyric to crop poisoning, Federal subsidies, prices &c first appear here on Mudcat, nothing in the decades before that. Not even Guthrie or Steinbeck to be fair to the artists mentioned. It's just Mudcat and unsourced “everybody knows,” “common industry knowledge” & “seems reasonable to me” statements of “fact” as above and in the song threads.

Joe found the same, he recalls reading the sources but can't retrieve them now. Not even in the one (1) link provided. Nada.

The single reference he's located so far is the Agricultural Marketing Agreement Act of 1937 program that authorizes those same voluntary commercial grower co-ops. So we agree, I assume, up to the point that co-ops exist and there's no mention of deliberate crop destruction or Federal payouts in them anywhere. Zilch.

Absent any document record, we've waffled back down to how we treat food waste which, on the other hand, is not the same as wasted food at all. 2-10% of every harvest is inedible waste, cull and trash by law and industry standards. If you're good at it. Railcars full of the stuff and zippo to do with pricing, marketing orders, pilfering or safe, edible food of any kind.

This folk history meme has already devolved a long, long way from the song wiki and Joe's opening gambit in the song thread and I don't feel noways tired.

Next!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:38 PM

Well I would trust for instance that the ancient documents held by the National Library of China have not been edited. It could be that in the past they were selective about what was housed there, but editing historical documents? I doubt it.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: GUEST,Harry Rivers
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:30 PM

Jim, I'm well aware that it is difficult, sometimes impossible, to identify the "who". The inability to identify the "who" weakens the source and questions its reliability as a source for History.

That's not to say it's worthless, just less reliable.

The thread is "How reliable is Folk History?", is it not?


David, fair cop, I was using hyperbole to establish a point but do you really believe that repressive regimes haven't edited the contents of their national libraries?

Egyptian Pharoahs, Roman Emperors, Mediaeval Kings, and fascist dictators have all 'edited' the national records that may have questioned their legitimacy.

A resource such as the Bodleian is invalauable but it exists within a realtively free western democracy. The UK may not always be such a State.

How many modern photographs (one of tomorrow's primary sources for a history of today) can we really trust?

The Great Russian Encyclopaedia has corrected many of the flaws of the Great Soviet Encyclopaedia but would you trust it more ot less than Britannica or Wikipedia?

I think the way you answer that question depends, essentially, on the "who".

Cheers,
Harry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:03 PM

What you are describing Harry, is forgery. Yes documents can be forged. But it is in many cases possible to establish their provenance, particularly if they reside in an established library (e.g. the Bodleian). Whole libraries cannot be edited. Thats why people who don't like what is in them destroy them instead.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:36 PM

"That's why we start with "Who wrote it?"."
An impossible question Harry and getting more so as time passes.
Far easier to ask "who does it represent"
Jim Carrolll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: GUEST,Harry Rivers
Date: 16 May 18 - 10:09 AM

Howard,

"Folk process" is covered by "Who wrote it?"

All historical documents can be changed (re-written), none are set in stone, either literally or metaphorically; a half-decent mason can change a carved inscription which even the keenest eye can miss.

If the will is there, whole libraries can be edited.

That's why we start with "Who wrote it?".

Harry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 May 18 - 07:43 AM

In addition to Harry Rivers' History 101 you have to add the "folk process". How much has the story been changed in the telling? Historical documents are at least set in stone (sometimes literally), folk history and songs are always liable to change.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 07:22 AM

Reverend Charles Kingsly's Christian take on the Irish

I am haunted by the human chimpanzees I saw [in Ireland] . . . I don't believe they are our fault. . . . But to see white chimpanzees is dreadful; if they were black, one would not feel it so much. . . ." (Charles Kingsley in a letter to his wife, quoted in L.P. Curtis, Anglo-Saxons and Celts, p.84).
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 07:12 AM

Sigh!!!!!
Take it up with the researcher Teribus
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 16 May 18 - 07:07 AM

Throughout the previous year the railways had been extending through the English border country and into Scotland. A third of the navvies were Irish, a third Scots, and a third English: that was the beginning of the trouble - easy-going Roman Catholic Irish, Presbyterian Scots, and impartially belligerent English. - Terry Coleman’s ‘Railway Navvies’

Nothing "easy going" about Roman Catholicism (Far to many strictures: You can't do this, you can't do that. You must eat this you can't eat that on certain days. You must do this, you must do that - all bound up in anything against the diktat of the Pope, the Bishop or the Priest is a mortal sin that will send you to hell). Presbyterianism while strict in observance has far fewer such strictures. Wonder why after describing the others in terms of religion Coleman then describes the English Navvies as he does - surely they would have mostly been Church of ENgland (The most laid back religion in the world, born as it was out of convenience).

Hidden in all the cut'n'paste verbiage the real reason the Irish emigrants were met with hostility not only in Liverpool, Glasgow, Boston, Chicago and New York is given:

their one genuine grievance (the fact that the Irishmen would work for less pay and so tended to bring down wages)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 06:44 AM

is similar to comments I have heard from rich people in fundamentalist churches "
Whoops - should read 150th aniversery

SOUPERISM
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 06:14 AM

Think we're finished here Ter....
We really have been here a thousand times before - I'm not interested in reopening it with you

"is similar to comments I have heard from rich people in fundamentalist churches "
Trevelyan was a religious fundamentalist but his appointment gave Government blessing to is inhumanity
Large numbers of Irish people have always referred to The Famine as Ireland's Holocaust - the revelations rising from the awakened history after the 10th anniversary indicate that there is a foundation for that belief
Trevelyan's letter in full, (a large missal sent in two parts) was reproduced in Tim Pat Coogan's 'The Famine Plot' - a depressing and anger-making read but one of the most important ones of the deluge of works produced at the time.
Another religion-connected issue he dealt with was the 'Soupers' the Protestant schools that doled out food to starving children in exchange for them renouncing their religion
I can see one from our back window, referred to o - now in use for selling used cars and repairing punctures - never sure if there's a symbolic significance in that
Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:37 AM

Jim this is the statement of yours that I responded to:

Nobody seems to want to discuss the actual surroundings of the situation and the power of (virtually) life and death these people wielded and the proven way they used it to exile millions and evict many more millions to homelessness and permanent exile?

However this is the one you now appear to be taking me task for, which is something I have never commented on:

It seems to me you are defending the indefensible
Your reason for doing so becomes obvious in your sentence "the simple fact remains that if rent is not paid the tenant is evicted that was and still is the case anywhere in the UK and I dare say in the ROI."
Are you really suggesting that the death of millions and the forcible emigrations that followed the famine are less important than paying the rent


Please show me in the first quotation above where you mention the death of millions - or is this another example of the non-existent name you took me to task for earlier.

Simple fact Jim there is just simply no discussing anything with you, all you seem to seek is sycophantic agreement of every utterance.

How reliable is "Folk History"? The answer is Not very reliable at all.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:54 AM

That last sentence in red, Jim, is similar to comments I have heard from rich people in fundamentalist churches who refuse to get involved in any kind of societal activity.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:18 AM

Wonder how Tribus is getting on these days
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:10 AM

"It can be considered as being evidence under what is known as "rules of evidence"
As evidence of good character - no more
As I said you can only give evidence that a crime was committed - unless the crime was specified with time, date and location, that's all
Whatever way you look at it Leitrim was not of good character (even though his housekeeper said he was, plenty more, including his peers in the House of Lords denied this)
"The "droit de Seigneur" nonsense "
You know this of course - of course you don't, nobody does, but the exercising of power and influence to gain sexual favours is as documented a fact as you could wish to have
It seems to me you are defending the indefensible
Your reason for doing so becomes obvious in your sentence "the simple fact remains that if rent is not paid the tenant is evicted that was and still is the case anywhere in the UK and I dare say in the ROI."
Are you really suggesting that the death of millions and the forcible emigrations that followed the famine are less important than paying the rent
Had the Famine occurred in the Midlands and a similar approach was taken, there would have been guillotines on the streets of Birmingham
Evidence such as this, from the man appointed by the British Government to deal with the effects of the Famine, Sir Charles Trevelyan, suggest that it wasn't just mishandled, but deliberate policy.

In a letter to an Irish peer, Lord Monteagle of Brandon, a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, he described the famine as an "effective mechanism for reducing surplus population" as well as "the judgement of God" and wrote that "The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"

That seems to be what you are supporting
Think we're finished here
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:40 AM

By all means let us drop any hostility Jim. None was ever intended. Thank you for explaining who the T.P. mentioned in the song was, although why you simply did not do that in the first place I do not know. I would also like to thank you for the rather round about admission that his name did not appear in any link supplied by you making your highly judgmental statement "If you actually read the historical link to what was put up you would know who TP was - as you appear to not be interested in what others have to say or what the 'man in the street' passed on to is in the form of oral history, I see little point in continuing with you totally in error and without foundation.

You say of this statement "by his Housekeeper in the form of her letter dismissing the allegations" - How can this be considered any more "evidence" than the dozens of local reports or the twenty-odd songs describing his bad behaviour ?

It can be considered as being evidence under what is known as "rules of evidence" in that it was a written statement in response to the accusations leveled against her employer as being the possible motive for the attack on him that left three men dead. The "droit de Seigneur" nonsense was a red herring designed to throw the police off the scent. Lord Leitrum was murdered because of his policy of eviction, nothing else:

The assassins, Nial Shiels of Doughmore, an itinerant tailor, Michael Hergarty of Tullyconnell, and Michael MvElwee of Ballyworiskey (The actual assassin of Lord Leitrum), were from the remote Fanad Peninsula. In 1877, "McElwee's father was involved in litigation with Leitrim with the result that McElwee was rendered bankrupt, and his house and farm were sold at auction."

Somebody saying something about a third party because they "heard it" from someone else down the pub who was married to someone who "heard it" from her cousin who's aunty delivered vegetables to the grocer who supplied big house cannot be considered "evidence" under those very same rules. Just because someone WANTS to believe a story does not make the story TRUE. Strange that after his death not a single one of his victims ever came forward to corroborate the allegations.

The letter was written at the time when rumour of this "droit de Seigneur" were proposed to her as being the cause of Lord Leitrum's murder.

How can someone testify that something "never happened" unless the accusations are specified?
Her statement amounts no no more than "'is lordship would never do such a thing"


You say, and here you are expressing your opinion, you are not stating fact - "Her statement amounts no no more than "'is lordship would never do such a thing" - What is stated in the letter written by the person in charge of the house and all those employed in the household is a categorical refutation of the allegations inferred by what was nothing more than unverifiable and unsubstantiated gossip.

Another opinion offered by you states - What else is a woman who relies on sucking up to the gentry for her living going to say? - If the story you believe to be the truth is the truth then it would appear that everybody in the area relied on their living by sucking up to the gentry yet you find one section is to be believed but others are not. The letter was written after Lord Leitrum's death so she had no need to suck up to anybody, her "living" had gone.

Nobody has responded to his feller's reputation as described by his fellow peers That some of his fellow peers in the House of Lords described Lord Leitrum as a bit of a "bad lot" is irrelevant and could relate to a whole host of other reasons for them passing that judgement. Nowhere is it stated that it had any connection to the "droit de Seigneur" nonsense.

It was a fairly common suggestion that the landed gentry liked to dip their quills in the local inkwells - why not Leitrim? It being a "fairly common SUGGESTION" does not make it established fact.

Nobody seems to want to discuss the actual surroundings of the situation and the power of (virtually) life and death these people wielded and the proven way they used it to exile millions and evict many more millions to homelessness and permanent exile What would there be to discuss? We are talking here of an event that happened in 1878 when things were very different to the way things are now. But with regard to the payment of rent by a tenant the simple fact remains that if rent is not paid the tenant is evicted that was and still is the case anywhere in the UK and I dare say in the ROI.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:21 AM

That's my point, Jim. The song posted does a terrific job of portraying the human and emotional impact of an historical event. It is an accurate portrayal of the impact of the event, even though certain details may be altered to make the song work.
So, we listen to the song for what it has to teach, and don't get bogged down by immaterial details.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:06 AM

Moving on
The Emigtrations produced the largest number of songs in the repertoire next to love songs, (but the two subjects became inevitably mixed)
Most of them were sentimental yearning for home, but a few tackled the subject head on - dealing with the practicalities of the New World

Michael ‘Straighty’ Flanagan Inagh

You loyal-hearted Irishmen that do intend to roam,
To reap the English harvest so far away from home.
I’m sure you will provide with us both comrades loyal and true;
For you have to fight both day and night with John Bull and his crew.

When we left our homes from Ireland the weather was calm and clear.
And when we got on board the ship we gave a hearty cheer.
We gave three loud cheers for Paddy’s land, the place we do adore,
May the heavens smile on every child that loves the shamrock shore.

We sailed away all from the quay and ne’er received a shock,
Till we landed safe in Liverpool one side of Clarence Dock.
Where hundreds of our Irishmen they met us in the town;
Then ‘Hurrah for Paddy’s lovely land’, it was the word went round.

With one consent away we went to drink strong ale and wine,
Each man he drank a favourite toast to the friends he left behind.
We sang and drank till the ale house rang dispraising Erin’s foes,
Or any man that hates the land where St Patrick’s shamrock grows.

For three long days we marched away, high wages for to find.
Till on the following morning we came to a railway line.
Those navies they came up to us, and loudly they did rail,
They cursed and damned for ould Paddy’s lands, and the sons of Granuaile.

Up stands one of our Irish boys and says, ‘What do you mean?
While us, we’ll work as well as you, and hate a coward’s name.
So leave our way without delay or some of you will fall,
Here stands the sons of Irishmen that never feared a ball.’

Those navies then, they cursed and swore they’d kill us every man.
Make us remember ninety-eight, Ballinamuck and Slievenamon.
Blessed Father Murphy they cursed his blessed remains,
And our Irish heroes said they’d have revenge then for the same.

Up stands Barney Reilly and he knocked the ganger down.
‘Twas then the sticks and stones they came, like showers to the ground.
We fought from half past four until the sun was going to set,
When O’Reilly says, ‘My Irish boys, I think we will be bet.’

But come with me my comrade boys, we’ll renew the fight once more.
We’ll set our foes on every side more desperate than before.
We will let them know before we go we’d rather fight than fly,
For at the worst of times you’ll know what can we do, but die.

Here’s a health then to the McCormicks to O’Donnell and O’Neill,
And also the O’Donoghues that never were afraid.
Also every Irish man who fought and gained the day
And made those cowardly English men - in crowds they ran away.


“Irish immigrants fleeing the Famine and the mass evictions were met with prejudice and violence in many of the places they chose as their new homes. This account from Terry Coleman’s ‘Railway Navvies’ gives a vivid description of the reception many of them received when they landed in Britain. It describes the plight of the men who took work as railway navvies in the English/Scots border country:
‘Throughout the previous year the railways had been extending through the English border country and into Scotland. A third of the navvies were Irish, a third Scots, and a third English: that was the beginning of the trouble - easy-going Roman Catholic Irish, Presbyterian Scots, and impartially belligerent English. The Irish did not look for a fight. As the Scottish Herald reported, they camped, with their women and children, in some of the most secluded glades, and although most of the huts showed an amazing disregard of comfort, the hereditary glee of their occupants seemed not a whit impaired. This glee enraged the Scots, who then added to their one genuine grievance (the fact that the Irishmen would work for less pay and so tended to bring down wages) their sanctified outrage that the Irish should regard the Sabbath as a holiday, a day of recreation on which they sang and lazed about. As for the Scots, all they did on a Sunday was drink often and pray occasionally, and it needed only an odd quart of whisky and a small prayer to make them half daft with Presbyterian fervour. They then beat up the godless Irish. The Irish defended themselves and this further annoyed the Scots, so that by the middle of 1845 there was near civil war among the railway labourers. The English, mainly from Yorkshire and Lancashire, would fight anyone, but they preferred to attack the Irish. The contractors tried to keep the men, particularly the Irish and Scots, apart, employing them on different parts of the line, but the Scots were not so easily turned from their religious purposes. At Kinghorn, near Dunfermline, these posters were put up around the town:

"Notice is Given
that all the Irish men on the line of railway in Fife Share must be off the grownd and owt of the countey on Monday th nth of this month or els we must by the strenth of our armes and a good pick shaft put them off
Your humbel servants, Schots men."

Letters were also sent to the contractors and sub-contractors. One read:

"Sir, - You must warn all your Irish men to be of the grownd on Monday the 11th of this month at 12 o'cloack or els we must put them by forse FOR WE ARE DETERMINED TO DOW IT."

The sheriff turned up and warned the Scots against doing anything of the sort. Two hundred navvies met on the beach, but in the face of a warning from the sheriff they proved not so determined to do it, and the Irish were left in peace for a while. But in other places the riots were savage. Seven thousand men were working on the Caledonian line, and 1,100 of these were paid monthly at a village called Locherby, in Dumfriesshire. Their conduct was a great scandal to the inhabitants of a quiet Scottish village. John Baird, Deputy Clerk of the Peace for the county, lamented that the local little boys got completely into the habits of the men - "drinking, swearing, fighting, and smoking tobacco and all those sorts of things". Mr Baird thought that on a pay day, with constant drunkenness and disturbance, the village was quite uninhabitable.

A minority of the navvies were Irish, and they were attacked now and again, as was the custom. After one pay day a mob of 300 or 400, armed with pitchforks and scythes, marched on the Irish, who were saved only because the magistrates intervened and kept both sides talking until a force of militia came up from Carlisle, twenty-three miles away.'
The writer goes in to explain that the worst of the riots were to follow. This song describes the situation in Britain, specifically in Liverpool; we have never come across it before and can find no trace of it. A similar song ‘Seven of our Irishmen’ (Roud 3104), sung by Straighty and by Pat MacNamara, deals with those who landed in America and were targeted as possible recruits for the U.S. army."

Reference:
The Railway Navvies, Terry Coleman, 1965.
LISTEN HERE

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:09 AM

Well, shoot. I don't know how Phil d'Conch got a bee up his ass, but I guess he did. I worked as a federal investigator in the Central Valley of California for over 20 years, and did many security clearance investigations for many agencies of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, including the Agricultural Marketing Service, which uses marketing orders to regulate the sale of dairy products and fruits and vegetables. I got to know all aspects of Central Valley agriculture quite well - and I had previously done agricultural intelligence work in Berlin in the Army Security Agency. And I came from Wisconsin, another farm state. I've baled hay and milked cows and driven tractors and shoveled manure. And I've read the ag news in Central Valley newspapers every day since 1980.

That's why I was so interested in Woody Guthrie's "Deportees," and that's why I have been researching the song since 1996. I read dozens of newspaper accounts of the crash and tracked down and communicated with the principal reporter for the Associated Press. I went to the site of the 1948 plane crash; and I visited the memorial at the mass grave of the victims in Fresno, that I had donated money to erect.

These facts are clear:
  • Excess produce that exceeds market order is dumped when it can't be used for alternative purposes (although less now than in 1948)
  • When there is a pilferage problem with dumped produce, the produce is sometimes mixed with noxious substances to make it inedible and unsaleable.
This is common knowledge in the Central Valley. The most common "noxious substances" are lime and fuel oil - and government authorities object to fuel oil because it is environmentally unsafe.

I have found mention of creosote only in Steinbeck and Guthrie, but it's a likely substance to be used (because it is readily available on farms and is similar to fuel oil in effect) - and it has a more poetic sound than "lime" or "fuel oil." We give "poetic license" to songwriters in such cases, unless we are politically-motivated literalists.

And that's the point that applies to this thread. Folk songs, like all literature, cannot be understood by literalists who are interested only in the so-called "facts" of an event. Songs and literature are meant to convey an understanding and appreciation of the emotional and personal impact of an event, not the legal "facts." Whether the produce was mixed with lime (most likely) or creosote is immaterial. Both made it impossible for farmworkers to sell or consume the produce, and that wasn't likely to make farmworkers or their supporters (like Woody and Steinbeck) happy. As for me, I see both sides of the issue - that of the farmer who wants to keep a business alive, and that of the farmworker who wants to supplement family income. I've interviewed dozens of Central Valley farmers and farmworkers, and I respect and sympathize with both.

No, I wouldn't expect Woody Guthrie or John Steinbeck to be historians, but they produced literature and song that illustrated their eras and environs very well and gave a human understanding of events that historians often cannot supply.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Harry Rivers
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:58 AM

History 101: Assessment of Primary Sources

Who wrote it?

Why did they write it?

What was the intended audience?

Oh, and don't forget the unwitting testimony . . . . what are they telling us they didn't realise they were telling us?

And from there we start to tell our version of History. Folk songs and stories are just another Primary Source; some more useful than others.

If you want 'truth', you'll need Philosophy 101 . . . . . shit, that's Indiana Jones!

Harry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:29 AM

Howard your argument does not alter he fact that your statement was inaccurate, the merit of a song is down to the abilty of the song writer,nothing else


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 18 - 08:38 PM

First
Can we drop the hostility please
My suggesting the good and great were not angels seem to have trodden on a few toes - good - it was intended to
Plenty more where that came from

"by his Housekeeper in the form of her letter dismissing the allegations"
How can this be considered any more "evidence" than the dozens of local reports or the twenty-odd songs describing his bad behaviour ?
How can someone testify that something "never happened" unless the accusations are specified?
Her statement amounts no no more than "'is lordship would never do such a thing"
Her accusation that the women were to blame for getting themselves into trouble and making it up amount's to little more than the common reaction to all rapes "she 'ad it comin' to 'er your hounors - she wuz a bad lot all round" - classic cap-doffing
What else is a woman who relies on sucking up to the gentry for her living going to say?
Nobody seems to want to discuss the actual surroundings of the situation and the power of (virtually) life and death these people wielded and the proven way they used it to exile millions and evict many more millions to homelessness and permanent exile
Nobody has responded to his feller's reputation as described by his fellow peers - if they said he was bad in the circumstances that prevailed at the e time - he must have been vicious prick.
It was a fairly common suggestion that the landed gentry liked to dip their quills in the local inkwells - why not Leitrim?

Buck House meeting
T.P. O'Connor was a gofer for the National Party and was instrumental, along with the Journalist, Joe Devlin, in setting up the meeting
I put it in my original library notes but the staff must have considered it superfluous for an Irish audience
"I now note is not an excellent example encapsulating an actual historical event, but a satirical view of an actual historical event."
If you believe that satire cannot be "an excellent example encapsulating an actual historical event" then you obviously haven't read Swift's recipe for cooking dead children to feed the poor, or Jaroslav Hasek's 'Good Soldier Schweik' showing how a supposed idiot-soldier used his idiocy to survive a devastating war - or many other such works that use humour to accurately recreate bureaucracy or the waste of human life or military incompetence - Catch 22 is still a classic in my opinion.
This song does exactly that - it deals with some of the most complicated stumbling blocks of Home Rule by poking fun at the surroundings of the conference - in seven verses   
Brilliant in my book

I have steered clear of the Grapes of Wrath argument - I've read and heard too much of the whitewashing of The Great depression to be bothered, just as I have, as a worker, been expected to take whatever shit a boss throws at us for as little as he cares to pay, and end up being the criminal when we bother to complain
I put up what I believe to be a fair description of the period - if nobody is going to discuss it, it remains the reliable document I believe it to be.
If anybody hasn't come across it, MacColl and Seeger published a fascinating monograph entitled 'Shellback' based on interviews with Ben Bright, a welsh seaman who jumped ship in the thirties and became an I.W.W. activist, working with such people as T-Bone Slim and Elizabeth Gurley Flynn - fascinating and inspiring stuff
PM me if you have a problem getting it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 18 - 03:44 PM

I did, before my first post on the subject, and all roads lead back to… Mudcat

Fascinating, Phil - Joe and Mudcat feature in California newspapers of the '30'a and '40's.

You must be Dr. Who in real life.

As for the rest of your spittle-flecked screed, it has nowt to do with owt.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: How reliable is Folk History ?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 15 May 18 - 02:24 PM

Nemo: “A search of California newspapers from the Steinbeck/Guthrie era for "Creosote" or "creosote and crops" & other variations might actually turn up something germane.

Go for it & report back to the class...


I did, before my first post on the subject, and all roads lead back to… Mudcat, with Joe Offer leading the village parade.

David Carter (UK): “Not someone who does their research at the end of a keyboard and gives talks in village halls.

Jim Carroll: “Seems this thread if becoming Redneck-Troll infected.

Gawduh forbid you should have to communicate with an actual farmer on the subject of farming at some point in your clueless opinionating. Joe should have found beechwood creosote is still an approved food and drug additive (it's not coal tar crosote) but never has been for peaches or any other fruit. It's controlled by the Feds.

Marketing orders are from voluntary grower co-ops. They couldn't order denaturing if they wanted to.

So-called “excess” table grade fruit is not destroyed. It is down graded. There are no quotas for juicing, canning and sileage.

Just because you can eat it, doesn't mean it was grown for you to eat. There are perfectly valid mechanical and manufacturing uses for vegetable oils, vinegar &c that are none of your beeswax.

And Joe... and all of Mudcat for all its existance… is, apparently, unaware of that portion of the harvest set aside for the hungry since the Old Testament was new:

And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.” (Leviticus 23:22)

If Steinbeck had really cared about human suffering Grapes of Wrath would have been set in Euro-Asia and plenty of more his characters would have to die before "The End."

Ask a redneck about the Society of St. Andrew if you actually care about the truth. Avoid Mudcatters like the effing plague.

Hate, ignorance and hero worship, what could possibly go wrong? Boy howdy.


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