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English concertina 4th finger conflicts

Guran 14 May 18 - 02:38 AM
Anglo 16 May 18 - 10:43 AM
Guran 17 May 18 - 06:28 AM
Richard Mellish 17 May 18 - 06:49 AM
Guran 17 May 18 - 03:53 PM
G-Force 22 May 18 - 05:29 AM
Guran 22 May 18 - 12:31 PM
The Sandman 22 May 18 - 12:39 PM
Guran 22 May 18 - 03:45 PM
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Subject: Use or not-use of 4th finger
From: Guran
Date: 14 May 18 - 02:38 AM

Has anybody read this:
https://www.concertinajournal.org/articles/the-english-concertina-and-finger-4/

Comments?


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Subject: RE: English concertina 4th finger conflicts
From: Anglo
Date: 16 May 18 - 10:43 AM

Above my pay grade, I'm afraid.


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Subject: RE: English concertina 4th finger conflicts
From: Guran
Date: 17 May 18 - 06:28 AM

Something that surprises me is that using - or not using - the little finger in active work on the keyboard seems to have troubled players of the English system a lot since 1850s while using it ( at least now and then) by Anglo or Duet players to my knowledge is not that controversial

Is there any Anglo or Duet player here who absolutely detests using the little finger? And are there some who "can not live" without doing so ?
Motivations for either case please !?


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Subject: RE: English concertina 4th finger conflicts
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 17 May 18 - 06:49 AM

I play Anglo and use all eight fingers, plus obviously my right thumb for the air button and sometimes my left thumb for part of a chord on pull. If I lost the use of either little finger I could still play, after a fashion, but my playing would be much changed. (A couple of years ago I had what was probably a small stroke, affecting my left hand and especially my left little finger. I gave up playing for the few weeks it took to recover.) I would expect it to be similar for all Anglo players, regardless of style, but I know little about what Irish players do.


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Subject: RE: English concertina 4th finger conflicts
From: Guran
Date: 17 May 18 - 03:53 PM

Hello Richard, yes there likely is a difference between Morris style Anglo playing and Irish since the single note "cross-row" playing more seldom is expected to employ the distant buttons in the range of the 4th finger. One detail I wonder about is that if not having fairly long fingers the high notes on 3rd row in particular are not reachable for the little finger unless you rotate the instrument vs the hand clock-wise looking at the right side. Many Anglo players keep the instrument in that position all the time and the reason likely is just that - to reach the 3rd row better...OR what is it otherwise?


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Subject: RE: English concertina 4th finger conflicts
From: G-Force
Date: 22 May 18 - 05:29 AM

I play Maccann duet and use all eight fingers (plus the left thumb on the air button at the end of the piece). The wife plays English and just uses the six fingers.


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Subject: RE: English concertina 4th finger conflicts
From: Guran
Date: 22 May 18 - 12:31 PM

Allan Atlas in the article I referred mentions that "Victorian" tutors from Regondi, Blagrove, Sedgwick and Warren prescribed that 4th finger should be used anywhere on the EC keyboard when suitable...Warren later and Alsepti that fingers 1-4 should be used on rows 1-4 respectively i e a fairly frequent use of the 4th finger contrary to the more common routine nowadays that the fourth finger is "resting" at the finger plate.
Seemingly none of these old "greats" presented any analysis WHY they advocated for the "four finger methods".

There is one obvious and very important anatomical reason to choose the fourfinger methods instead of three finger methods however and that is the connective tissue links between tendons of 2nd, 3rd and 4th fingers that makes it impossible for particularly 3rd and 4th finger to move independently from each other. This is a VERY strong argument against using the finger plate at all.William Wheatstone very strongly pointed out in his patent paper of 1861 that the common grip between thumb in the thumb strap and 4th ( AND 3rd! ) finger causes a crampful obstructing fingering situation and due to that he dismissed the finger plate entirely and introduced a support for the wrist or palm of the hand instead to regain stability.

All 8 fingers can be used by Anglo and Duet players. There is no good reason against that with the English either or not to use a similar handle for all concertina systems. The trad set up with thumbstrap combined with little finger rest for the English can be looked upon as an unfortunate historic mistake !


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Subject: RE: English concertina 4th finger conflicts
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 18 - 12:39 PM

For christ sake much depends on someones anatomy and the size of the little finger can we please avoid being dogmatic


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Subject: RE: English concertina 4th finger conflicts
From: Guran
Date: 22 May 18 - 03:45 PM

*Fingering issues* i e what finger you chooses in a certain sequence of notes or for a specific chord no doubt primarily is an individual matter and because of that all these suggestions in tutors are rather meaningless. Regondi by the way judging from his own examples for good reasons may be suspected of having had unusually thin and flexible fingers...maybe part of a somewhat androgynical constitution.
Nothing dogmatic in that...

Concerning the connective tissue links which tie the fingers 2,3 and 4 together this is a general anatomic condition expected to affect EVERY normal individual but possibly there may be abnormal exceptions. The consequence of their presence is so obvious however ( you can easily domonstrate it by yourself - if necessary just ask me about some simple experiment...) that it is reason enough to skip using the fingerplate unless playing very slow tunes or if insisting playing like Charles Wheatstone prescribed - having BOTH 3rd AND 4th fingers on the plate and using just 1st and 2nd fingers for button work


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