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BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State

robomatic 14 May 18 - 07:29 PM
Donuel 14 May 18 - 07:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 May 18 - 07:50 PM
Steve Shaw 14 May 18 - 08:06 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 May 18 - 12:35 AM
Iains 15 May 18 - 04:06 AM
Steve Shaw 15 May 18 - 05:26 AM
bobad 15 May 18 - 09:14 AM
Steve Shaw 15 May 18 - 10:30 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 May 18 - 10:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 18 - 11:19 AM
Iains 15 May 18 - 02:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 18 - 04:51 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 05:41 AM
bobad 16 May 18 - 07:20 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 08:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 18 - 08:48 AM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 09:07 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 May 18 - 09:14 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 09:22 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 May 18 - 09:24 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 09:31 AM
David Carter (UK) 16 May 18 - 09:36 AM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 09:36 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 09:39 AM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 09:43 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 09:49 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 09:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 May 18 - 09:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 May 18 - 10:43 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 May 18 - 11:54 AM
Joe Offer 16 May 18 - 12:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 18 - 12:13 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 12:14 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 12:20 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 12:21 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 12:25 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 May 18 - 12:30 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 12:43 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 12:51 PM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 01:00 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 01:03 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 01:06 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 01:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 18 - 01:23 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 01:25 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 01:26 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 May 18 - 01:47 PM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 02:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 May 18 - 02:37 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 02:43 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 02:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 May 18 - 02:52 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 03:04 PM
David Carter (UK) 16 May 18 - 03:10 PM
Donuel 16 May 18 - 03:13 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 03:19 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 May 18 - 03:23 PM
Backwoodsman 16 May 18 - 03:27 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 03:31 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 03:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 May 18 - 03:32 PM
David Carter (UK) 16 May 18 - 03:42 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 03:44 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 03:48 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 03:57 PM
bobad 16 May 18 - 04:54 PM
bobad 16 May 18 - 05:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 May 18 - 05:18 PM
bobad 16 May 18 - 05:30 PM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 07:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 May 18 - 07:07 PM
Joe Offer 17 May 18 - 02:39 AM
Jim Carroll 17 May 18 - 02:49 AM
Iains 17 May 18 - 03:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 May 18 - 04:33 AM
Steve Shaw 17 May 18 - 05:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 May 18 - 05:36 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 May 18 - 06:32 AM
Iains 17 May 18 - 06:33 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 May 18 - 06:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 May 18 - 07:00 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 May 18 - 07:07 AM
David Carter (UK) 17 May 18 - 07:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 May 18 - 07:13 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 May 18 - 07:35 AM
bobad 17 May 18 - 07:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 May 18 - 07:45 AM
Backwoodsman 17 May 18 - 07:54 AM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 07:56 AM
bobad 17 May 18 - 08:06 AM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 08:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 May 18 - 08:34 AM
bobad 17 May 18 - 08:37 AM
Jim Carroll 17 May 18 - 08:46 AM
bobad 17 May 18 - 08:55 AM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 08:56 AM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 09:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 May 18 - 09:03 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 May 18 - 09:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 May 18 - 09:06 AM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 09:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 May 18 - 09:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 May 18 - 09:17 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 May 18 - 09:29 AM
bobad 17 May 18 - 09:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 May 18 - 09:42 AM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 09:48 AM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 09:51 AM
Jim Carroll 17 May 18 - 09:51 AM
Jim Carroll 17 May 18 - 09:53 AM
Jim Carroll 17 May 18 - 09:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 May 18 - 09:54 AM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 09:55 AM
Jim Carroll 17 May 18 - 09:55 AM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 09:58 AM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 10:07 AM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 10:11 AM
Stilly River Sage 17 May 18 - 10:12 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 May 18 - 10:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 May 18 - 10:15 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 May 18 - 10:17 AM
Jim Carroll 17 May 18 - 10:18 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 May 18 - 10:21 AM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 10:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 May 18 - 10:42 AM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 10:54 AM
Jim Carroll 17 May 18 - 10:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 May 18 - 11:02 AM
Jim Carroll 17 May 18 - 11:05 AM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 11:13 AM
bobad 17 May 18 - 11:21 AM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 11:23 AM
Backwoodsman 17 May 18 - 11:45 AM
bobad 17 May 18 - 11:46 AM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 11:49 AM
Jim Carroll 17 May 18 - 11:54 AM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 12:05 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 12:16 PM
Jim Carroll 17 May 18 - 12:50 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 12:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 May 18 - 01:09 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 01:12 PM
Joe Offer 17 May 18 - 01:34 PM
Jim Carroll 17 May 18 - 01:42 PM
Bonzo3legs 17 May 18 - 01:47 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 01:48 PM
Jim Carroll 17 May 18 - 01:52 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 01:53 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 02:01 PM
Bonzo3legs 17 May 18 - 02:04 PM
Jim Carroll 17 May 18 - 02:36 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 02:39 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 02:56 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 03:00 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 18 - 03:22 PM
Backwoodsman 17 May 18 - 03:45 PM
Vashta Nerada 17 May 18 - 04:04 PM

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Subject: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: robomatic
Date: 14 May 18 - 07:29 PM

Yeah, I went there.


Or rather, I haven't actually been there, but I pledge to go there before I get as old as she is now, which is 70.

And yes, I mean Israel, a nation which was founded as idealistically as any other on earth, and has had its many feet of clay regularly laundered ever since.

I realize that things aren't optimal right now, and there are some threads devoted to tearing her down, but there are positive things to be said about a country so incredibly diverse and with regular political elections where there are multiple parties.

It would be nice if this thread could be on the more positive side, but I realize that in giving it birth I am also giving it to the rest of you. Try to at least be thoughtful and informative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Donuel
Date: 14 May 18 - 07:32 PM

The USA is 70 years and counting behind Israel, as far as having a female President.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish Sta
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 18 - 07:50 PM

South Africa too had regular elections, with multiple parties; but the vote was limited to white people. However black people were still allowed to live in the country.

Israel has regular elections with multiple parties. Non Jews living in the country can vote, including those Arabs still living there - but most natives of the country were displaced at the time of Israel's foundation, and have been denied their legal right to return.

Which is the more democratic system?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 18 - 08:06 PM

You forgot to mention the dreadful inequality, racially-motivated, that exists in Israel between Jews and non-Jews. Israel will go on forever, despite Hamas, etc., and, after seventy years, that's how it should be. But the horrible divide will remain as long as Israel gets the unconditional support of the United States, no matter how bad their behaviour. Today, in the face of over fifty slaughtered Palestinians, Trump didn't even call for restraint. Gird your loins. There's trouble ahead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 May 18 - 12:35 AM

So there's Eurovision Israel [hooray...]
and right wing Govt/military regime Israel [boo...]

Hard to reconcile the two...

It must be heartbreaking for young liberal minded arts, music, culturally creative Israelis
wanting to coexist & collaborate peacefully with other cultures...

.. whilst coping with brainwashing from fanatical old zealots and military conscription...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 18 - 04:06 AM

Israel the progressive(extreme right wing)country planning to deport many thousands of Africans About time Uncle Sam's umbrella was taken away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 18 - 05:26 AM

No chance. The only hope, and it didn't work last time, is that a moderate-minded President in the White House will have the cojones to stand up to the ultra-powerful and unelected pro-Israel lobby.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 18 - 09:14 AM

Congratulation Israel for your endurance and accomplishments over the past seventy years in your historic homeland. You have established yourself as a model state with equal rights for all your citizens regardless of ethnicity or religion, the envy of many countries in the world. May you long continue to be the beacon of hope for many. ?azak ve-ema?!


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 18 - 10:30 AM

You forgot to invite your model state to keep on with the killing. Perhaps they can use some of that US military money to buy some more cluster munitions or white phosphorus or invest in some more bulldozers, and those sniper rifles always come in handy in case someone throws stones at you.


Over and out. Fester by yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 May 18 - 10:58 AM

Well... Bruce got the last word in the other thread... hope he calms down a bit...

..now back to the 70th birthday celebrations...

But the party is getting a bit too rowdy and out of order...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 18 - 11:19 AM

Steve,
the ultra-powerful and unelected pro-Israel lobby.

What is the nature and source of their great power?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 18 - 02:33 PM

This:
http://www.viewzone.com/dualcitizen.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:51 AM

Viewzone. "Conspiracies, lost history and mysteries as well as humor and facts... we tell it like it is."

They also say that no advertiser would touch that article Iains.
It is the old trope that Jews have infiltrated governments to corrupt and subvert policy to their own agenda.

I hope that is not Steve's view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:41 AM

To repeat myself for the millionth time, I don't refer to a Jewish lobby. It's a pro-Israel lobby and it contains many people who are not Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 18 - 07:20 AM

It is interesting to note that the Arab press is beginning to take notice of and to applaud Israel's achievements.

For instance, the former governor of Egypt's Al-Sharqiya province Reda Abd Al-Salam wrote that Israeli superiority was due to the country's continuous investment in education, health and science and technology, as well as Israel's building a democracy.

The Arab and Muslim peoples live under regimes that for decades have engaged not in developing their peoples and establishing themselves in economy, society, science, and democracy but in establishing their [own] rule... During this time, those we called 'the sons of apes and pigs' engaged in real building. They focused on education, health, economy, and technology, and of course on democratic process," a MEMRI translation of the article read.

Abd Al-Salam further emphasized that Israel's progress was not at all the result of aid, but of hard work. "Don't say that [this is because] the US supports Israel, because over the past decades Egypt has received tremendous support, in billions of dollars, from its Arab brothers and also from the international institutions for developing education, roads, and the like. Where has [this money] gone and whose pockets [does it line]?


More examples from the Arab press HERE


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 08:31 AM

Bobad
From a link in The Jerusalem Post

The Arab League is planning to hold an emergency meeting on Tuesday at the level of permanent representatives to discuss “the crimes of the occupation against the Palestinian people,” the assistant secretary-general for Palestinian affairs, Said Abu Ali, told official Palestinian news agency Wafa.
He added that the league is closely following developments after the “Israeli massacre against peaceful civilians” on the Gaza border.
Abu Ali called on the international community to put an immediate halt to “the Israeli crimes” and to provide protection to the Palestinian people.

EDUCATION
EDUCATION
EDUCATION
EDUCATION
EDUCATION 2016
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 18 - 08:48 AM

Steve,
It's a pro-Israel lobby and it contains many people who are not Jews.

...but overwhelmingly Jews. How do they exert their supposed influence on government Steve?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:07 AM

JC,

According to Yasser Arafat, the former and late leader of the PLO, Jordan killed about 10,000 Palestinians during the Black September conflict fought in Jordan between the Jordanian Armed Forces, under the leadership of King Hussein, and the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), under the leadership of Yasser Arafat.

The conflict, which was started by the Palestinians, lasted primarily between 16th and 27th September 1970.

This being so, Jordan has actually killed more Palestinians in a single conflict than Israel ever has in any of the various conflicts the Palestinians have also started against Israel.

However, the world has of course never acknowledged this not entirely irrelevant fact, and, instead, continues to bash Israel simply for exercising her sovereign right to defend her citizens against the same Palestinian terrorist threat Jordan also faced once upon a time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:14 AM

"...but overwhelmingly Jews. How do they exert their supposed influence on government Steve?"


oooh I know...I know.. The answer to that one is soooo easy...

Space Aliens...

they are all Space Aliens adopting human guise and replacing all our politicians and world leaders
with tiny Space Aliens in fully functioning human being suits
that look just like all the people they replaced....

Now that's what I call a conspiracy for you to get all huffy and accusational about...!!!
go on I dare you... call me it..

I know you're dying to...


Pillock - you have been warned so many times before about going down this road
with your bag of nasty tricks...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:22 AM

So?
What has that to do with the present slaughter taking place at this moment
Many of the dead, particularly the eight children killed so far, wouldn't have been born in 1970
God alone knows how many of the 2,500 wounded ere children - the killers didn't ask for their birth certificates before they cut them down
What's your point?
Maybe past killings by however make it acceptable to mow down unarmed demonstrators in your part of the world ?
In mine, all such killings are evil, no matter what the numbers
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:24 AM

From: Donuel - PM
Date: 14 May 18 - 07:32 PM
The USA is 70 years and counting behind Israel, as far as having a female President.


Did I miss something? Was David Ben-Gurion a female?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:31 AM

By the way
"16th and 27th September 1970."
This being so, Jordan has actually killed more Palestinians in a single conflict than Israel ever has in any of the various conflicts the Palestinians have also started against Israel.
Israel facilitated the massacre of up to 3,500 unarmed refugees in less than three days over a decade later
That has to be worth some sort of medal in your Slaughter Olympics
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:36 AM

John Bolton is on that list. Its pretty clear how he exerts his influence. He is as far as I know not a Jew, just a right wing warmonger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:36 AM

JC,


Hamas isn’t merely a terrorist organization committed to murdering Jews, it’s a terrorist organization that urges its own people to become cannon fodder as a means of appealing to Western journalists and intellectuals. The higher the death toll, the happier Hamas will be. And few things have more of a detrimental effect on the Palestinian cause than the media’s asymmetrical coverage of this conflict with the Jews.

Until Palestinians shed their hatred, turn from the Israeli fences, and march towards their own governments, they will remain pawns and saps in a decades-long suicide mission. That’s because no amount of bad press about Israel’s efforts to stop violence coming from Gaza will impel that nation to create a terror state on its borders. It’s untenable, not to mention immoral. We would never contemplate such a thing. Nor would any rational country.

Despite what you’ve heard, the 35,000 Palestinian “demonstrators” massed along the security fence between Israel and Gaza — the ones throwing firebombs and other explosives, burning tires, chucking rocks (if you think these are aren’t deadly, you should see one landing; I have), and those attempting to light fires to burn crops and vegetation — are only ostensibly protesting the United States moving its embassy to Israel’s capital. I know this because Hamas doesn’t accept a U.S. embassy anywhere in Israel, as it doesn’t recognize Israel at all.

Hamas has openly asserted that it’s attempting to create incursions into Israel, and that has absolutely nothing to do with East or West or North or South Jerusalem. For Palestinians this is about the 70th anniversary of Israel — or, as they see it, Nakba. It’s about an ongoing historic effort — an intermittently theocratic or nationalistic effort, depending on the trends — to play victim.

So while it might grate against the sensibilities and preconceived notions of those covering the mess, Hamas is the oppressor in this situation. And while rioters might think they’re fighting a “war,” Israel is merely trying to stop a mob from breaching a fence. To frame this as a battle between occupier and occupied is deeply simplistic. Gaza is unoccupied territory. It is only after a Hamas coup d’etat that dispatched the opposition political party of Fatah led by Mahmoud Abbas, the internationally recognized leader of the Palestinians, that both Israel and Egypt imposed a blockade on Gaza. Like Israel, Egypt was rightly worried about the increase of Iranian influence and terrorism.

Although there is occasionally talk of a unity government with Hamas, Fatah leader Abbas still threatened Gaza with more blockades. Now, if Hamas can’t even adhere to agreements with the supposed moderates of the Palestinian government, what is Israel expected to do?

Hamas might regularly crush political dissent, torture opponents, and limit every freedom imaginable, but let’s not forget that it’s also plagued by corruption. Since Israel conferred semi-autonomy on Gaza, Hamas has created one of the highest unemployment rates in the world, at more than 40 percent. The government siphons off hundreds of millions in international aid it should be using to promote economic growth and for basic necessities for the people, to fund the making and use of thousands of rockets and mortars (rendered ineffective by the Iron Dome; and the reason Hamas has not turned to riots), concrete-bolstered tunnels that shuffle terrorists into Israel, and other unnecessary terror activity.

One of those activists is ginning up mobs to rush a fence separating Gaza and Israel. At one gathering near Gaza City, The Washington Post reported, Hamas organizers encouraged rioters to push through the fence, “telling them Israeli soldiers were fleeing their positions, even as they were reinforcing them.” The purpose, of course, was to create casualties.

On the other hand, Israel dropped leaflets urging Palestinians to stay away from the fence. “Save your lives and work on building your futures,” the papers read. Israelis also fired warning shots at people as they began breaching the fence. Snipers only fired real shots at those who had already crossed the first fence despite warnings and were trying to breach the main security fence.

Using civilians as human shields and canon fodder, and the resulting death tolls as propaganda, has been a tool for Palestinian groups for more than half a century. In 2015, the United Nations was forced to admit that Hamas was storing explosives in at least three UN schools (where displaced people as well as children were housed) that Israel targeted during the mini-war of 2014. Using international aid buildings as staging grounds for terrorism is part of Yasser Arafat’s legacy.

Of course Israel makes mistakes. Many of them. But what is Israel supposed to do when a mob of violent rioters march towards them? Should it shut down the IDF and allow Hamas to overtake their military positions? Should it tear down the fences and allow a million Gazans, propagandized over a generation by violent regimes and steeped in virulent anti-Semitism, to walk into Israel proper?

Should they give full autonomy to Hamas and allow it to create a mini Iran right on its border? Should Jews pick up and leave Jerusalem? Even if Israel wanted to make a deal, Hamas makes no genuine demands, much less offers any concessions. It wants to provoke death. They want to become the victim. Sadly for the Palestinian people, they get plenty of help creating that fiction.

*******************************************************
ANSWER THE QUESTION:

"called for peace from both sides,"

For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose).(- RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;JC's, Acme's, and Mr Shaw's preference)

For the Palestinians, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. (- RESULT - NOBODY HURT ;My preference)

So WHICH side has control of "peace"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:39 AM

Troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:43 AM

Mr Shaw,

Good to see you finally signing your posts accurately.

Just looking at facts here. Take YOUR unsupported beliefs to some other thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:49 AM

Every time you post that disgusting sentence you are trolling. Your despicable behaviour is one hundred percent deliberate. Now stop being so bloody stupid and get a life, will you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:55 AM

"Hamas isn’t merely a terrorist organization committed to murdering Jews, i"
Again - so ?
Where does the slaughter of unarmed demonstrators come in all this
Israel has recently celebrated an act of terrorism of its own
You have been answered dozens of times - how do you think unarmed demonstrators intend to "kill all Jews" - surround them and wait for them to die of old age!!!!
So far the score is Palestinians - over one hundred dead two-thousand wounded -
Israelis - none
Why don't you just say that you believe that all demonstrations should be forbidden on the pain of death
That appears to be what you believ
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:58 AM

Name calling side, bringing arguments from other threads and other related shenanigans could well get this thread closed too. Please don't do it if you want the thread to remain a forum for sensible discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 18 - 10:43 AM

'side' was part of an earlier C&P! Sorry :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 18 - 11:54 AM

Just to brush up on Geography [ I failed the O level twice in 1975 - so gave up ]

I googled map size comparison sites...

Israel is tiny, barely bigger than Wales...!!!

Gaza Strip could get lost in the toe end of Cornwall...!!!!!

To think such an insignificantly small area of the planet could potentially lead to causing World War 3...!!!???


..and I thought North Korea was a pint sized trouble maker...!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:02 PM

All these accusations of trolling don't add anything to the thread, and make it boring to the rest of us. You people aren't trolls. You're just stubborn old gits who won't budge an inch from your out-of-balance opinions on one side or the other of the issue. I think it's a case of sour testosterone....
Nothing worse than listening to a bunch of old men bickering.
-Joe Offer, also an old man-


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:13 PM

PFR,
Pillock - you have been warned so many times before about going down this road
with your bag of nasty tricks...


More name calling, and I have never been so warned.
Just personal stuff and nothing on the subject as usual PFR.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:14 PM

To Joe Offer: your friend has now posted this sentence five or six times:

RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;JC's, Acme's, and Mr Shaw's preference)

I for one want to see no dead Jews or Palestinians, and I can rock-solid assure you that neither do Jim and Maggie. To type that once is disgusting. To repeat it again and again is provocative, insulting and looking for a reaction (yes I'm guilty of providing one). If you can't see that as trolling, well I don't know what planet you're on. You told us that he's your friend. Friends can have a good influence, can't they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:20 PM

Mr. Shaw,

Since YOU call for Israel to stop defending itself, and make NO demand on the Gazans to stop, I have no choice but to assume the result you want is dead Jews and Palestinians.

i ASKED A QUESTION, WHICH YOU DID NOT ANSWER:

Simple logic, no belief here at all- just the science ( You want something to occur, you get the consequences of that action ( or inaction) i KNOW WHICH ANSWER i WOULD WISH- tell ME WHAT you WOULD HAVE HAPPEN, OF THE TWO CASES. Tell me which side has control of the peace.


*******************************************************
ANSWER THE QUESTION:

"called for peace from both sides,"

For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose).(- RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;)

For the Palestinians, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. (- RESULT - NOBODY HURT ;My preference)

So WHICH side has control of "peace"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:21 PM

As long as we're clear that the pint-sized trouble-maker is Israel. Unfortunately, it has an elephant-sized backer in the West.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:25 PM

"As long as we're clear that the pint-sized trouble-maker is Israel"

This sounds like a religious belief to me- not a fact in sight to support your belief that Israel is responsible for the actions of Palestinians.


So feel free to have that belief- but don't expect others to let you teach it to any children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:30 PM

"I have never been so warned."

oh yes you have...

I'll do it again to refresh your memory...

Stop implying good folks you don't like or who disagree with you are antisemetics...

Stop trying to goad good folks into a position where you can exploit disputed definitions in order to call them antisemetics

Whenever I see you doing it I will remind you not to...

What do you think gives you of all people the right and power to call any other person such a nasty thing...?????

Clear now...???

Yes you are right, it is wrong to call you a pillock - it's not harsh enough...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:43 PM

Well done Bruce for removing the names. You should never have typed that sentence in the first place and you should have removed it first time. Now as I'm convinced that you have something wrong with you, I'm going to resume having nothing to do with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:51 PM

Sorry, Steve.

As I said, the LOGICAL , scientific assumption is that you , having advocated a specific course of action, you are accepting the consequences of that action.

If YOU specify that Israel should stop reacting to the Palestinians, and say nothing about the Palestinians stopping their activities, you are calling for the killing of Jews and Palestinians.

So the sentence makes perfect, LOGICAL sense. You keep on about logic, not belief- but your expressed BELIEF that Israel is to blame for the Palestinian actions tells us you are a hypocrite as well.

NOW, will you answer the question?

"called for peace from both sides,"

For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose).(- RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;)

For the Palestinians, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. (- RESULT - NOBODY HURT ;My preference)

So WHICH side has control of "peace"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:00 PM

"I for one want to see no dead Jews or Palestinians, and I can rock-solid assure you that neither do Jim and Maggie."
This needs to be carved in stone on this forum
The accusation is no more than a replacement for a lack of response - a thread-closer if anything is.
It's about time these peopple moved away from the term "Jews" anyway - they are the only ones who use it
Perhaps the golden rule should be:
It is antisemitic to - "Hold Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."

Joe
Whether you are one of us or not, your statement is extremely ageist
Taking a humanist stance on what is happening has nothing to do with how old you are (hopefully)
While this killing continues some of us will continue to condemn it.
If you consider that to be "stubborn" then you are working from a different dictionary than mine
It's all very well tyying to be all things to all men (and women but....

One of the worst features (just) of this whole affair has been the cowardly silence of our media and Governments
This was dealt with excellently in the letters page of the Irish Times where (apart from one letter) the response has been overwhelmingly a sympathy for the Palestinian cause

Sir, - The killing of over 50 people in Gaza, including chil¬dren, and the maiming of thou¬sands more by the Israeli mili¬tary has prompted The Irish Times to call on global and re¬gional powers to calm tensions in the hope that a two-state solution can be achieved post-Trump. Although you state that in doing so they should use whatever tools are at their disposal, you noticeably fail to identify these.
One measure clearly sug¬gests itself from the grotesque contrast you rightly note be¬tween murderous violence in Palestine and full diplomatic recognition in Jerusalem. To avoid pariah status is central to the Israeli mission and explains the recent hysterical attempts in Britain and elsewhere to equate criticism of Israel with racism. Although it clearly en¬gages in war crimes, including the slaughter of unarmed civil¬ians, it manages to be treated as an equal among nations.
The principal tool at the dis¬posal of all of us, individuals and, most importantly our gov¬ernments is implementation of the boycott of Israel that Pales¬tinian civic society groups have been calling for since 2004. Is¬rael is not a normal state as this week’s events yet again demon¬strate. Rather, they show that it is well past rime we engage in se¬rious discussion about its cultur¬al, diplomatic and economic iso¬lation. -Yours, etc,
Patrick O’hagan, Newcastle. Co Down.

Thart was a response to the paper's leader article

ISRAEL-PALESTINE THE WORLD MUST NOT LOOK AWAY
The contrast was grotesque. As Israeli and American dignitaries stood smiling on a
platform in Jerusalem, hailing the trans¬fer of the US embassy to the city as a step towards peace, dozens of Palestinians were being gunned down by Israeli snipers at the fortified fence that keeps them in Gaza.
Israeli forces shot and killed more than 50 Palstinians during protests at the Gaza border yes- jterday. Health officials said 1200 other Palestinians were wounded. Those lost lives can be added to the toll of more than 40 other Palestinians who have been killed by Israeli forces at the same location over the past six weeks. The UN and the EU have called for independent inquiries into the bloodshed, but Israel has refused.
The two events yesterday - the inauguration of the embassy and the Gaza protests - took place on the 70 th anniversary of the creation of the state of Israel, and a day before Palestinians commemorate 70 years since the Nakba, or catastrophe - the mass displacement of 750, 000 Palestinians, who left or were forcibly evicted from their homes in what is now Israel in 1948.
As the day illustrated in horrific fashion, the anniversaries fall at a time of acute tensions and almost total political stasis. The despondency pre¬dates Donald Trump’s rise to power, but his reckless decisions in the Middle East-to call them policies implies a level of strategic thinking they scarcely warrant - have made the situation more dangerous while creating new problems that will remain to be dealt with long after his disgraceful presidency comes to an end.
His decision to recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s capital delighted many Israelis and US evangeli¬cals, but it has dashed any remaining hope that a peace process can be initated at least for the dura¬tion of his term in office. Instead of seeking to assuage Palestinians by offering them a commensurate gesture, such as a promise that East Jerusalem will become capital of a future Palestinian state. Trump sought to punish them by withholding money from the United Nations relief agency for Palestinian refugees.
The longer the current hiatus continues, the more difficult it becomes to resolve the conflict. And the more dire life becomes for Palestinians. That is because the humanitarian situation in Gaza grows more alarming by the week, Israeli politics are moving to the right, illegal settlement-building continues apace, intra-Palestinian reconciliation has stalled and Hamas refuses to re¬nounce violence. The world cannot turn away,, however. In the absence of US leadership, an even greater onus falls on other global and region¬al powers - not only to work to calm tensions but to use whatever tools are at their disposal to en¬sure that by the time a new peace process can be¬gin in the post-Trump era, the conditions on the ground still allow for two viable states side by side.

Theresa May has now called for an enquiry into the killings and the UN has called a special session to discuss the issue
Hopefully we'll begin to see a sea change
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:03 PM

FACTS for Mr. Shaw:

"No matter how often Hamas tells us that many rioters on Israel-Gaza border are armed, most of the media keeps referring to them as “protesters” and “demonstrators.” No matter how often Hamas acknowledges that these rioters are part of a broader “war,” the media simply won’t report it as such. And no matter how often Palestinian rioters tell reporters they want to “kill” and “burn” Jews inside Israel, left-wing journalists and pundits still frame Israel as the aggressor.

Today, one senior Hamas official bragged that around 50 to 58 of those killed by the IDF at the Israel/Gaza border “were members of Hamas.” The terrorist group had already boasted that some of those killed in were members of its armed wing. At least 24 of those killed during the riots have been identified as Hamas members by Israel — 11 of them member of the internal security apparatus. All of this is an amazing coincidence considering how the media has been portraying the situation as a massacre of innocent civilians and children.

It’s almost certain that the IDF, which has a moral responsibility to stop tens of thousands of rioters from crossing their border and attacking its citizens, used the Hamas-instigated riots to pick off members of the terrorist organization. Hamas, of course, boasts about these deaths. Which isn’t to say they don’t also lie about civilian causalities. If you’re going to embed armed commandos with civilian rioters, propagandize them, pay them, and send them towards military installations, you must hope they will die. But the Western defenders of Hamas — either fellow travelers or those who don’t understand the dynamics of the Middle East – won’t tell you that martyrdom is the point."

more at http://thefederalist.com/2018/05/16/the-media-coverage-of-the-israeli-palestinian-clash-is-built-on-myths/

"But just because Hamas is willing to sacrifice their lives (and the lives of their citizens), doesn’t mean they aren‘t the instigators or the guilty party. There’s an obsession in the media about a disproportionate number of Palestinians who die in these conflicts. Some can’t escape the hackneyed oppressor-oppressed template. Others allow their obsession with Donald Trump to their cloud their morals. Bu the fact is that if Hamas dropped its claim on Israel proper, and stopped using every opening provided to them to instigate violence, not a single person would ever have to die again in this war."


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:06 PM

JC, just a reminder:


"Stop implying good folks you don't like or who disagree with you are antisemetics...

Stop trying to goad good folks into a position where you can exploit disputed definitions in order to call them antisemetics

What do you think gives you of all people the right and power to call any other person such a nasty thing...?????"


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:17 PM

One of several letters in today's Guardian.

"We, Israelis who wish our country to be safe and just, are appalled and horrified by the massive killing of unarmed Palestinian demonstrators in Gaza (Reports, 15 May). None of the demonstrators posed any direct danger to the state of Israel or to its citizens. The killing of over 50 demonstrators and the thousands more wounded are reminiscent of the Sharpeville Massacre in 1960 in South Africa. The world acted then. We call upon decent members of the international community to act by demanding that those who commanded such shootings be investigated and tried.

The current leaders of the Israeli government are responsible for the criminal policy of shooting at unarmed demonstrators. The world must intervene to stop the ongoing killing."

Avraham Burg Former speaker of the Knesset and chairman of the Jewish Agency Prof Nurit Peled Elhanan 2001 co-laureate of the Sakharov prize Prof David Harel Vice-president of the Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities Prof Yehoshua Kolodny Recipient of the 2010 Israel prize Alex Levac Photographer and recipient of the 2005 Israel prize Prof Judd Ne’eman Director and recipient of the 2009 Israel prize Prof Zeev Sternhell Historian and recipient of the 2008 Israel prize Prof David Shulman Recipient of the 2016 Israel prize David Tartakover Artist and recipient of the 2002 Israel prize

Just a bunch of self-hating Jews, I suppose...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:23 PM

PFR, another purely personal attack with nothing said on the actual subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:25 PM

Two more.

"Since 30 March, each week has seen killings of largely unarmed protesters by Israeli snipers. The position has been aggravated by the provocation of the opening of a new US embassy in Jerusalem, hammering another nail into the coffin of a moribund peace process.

The Independent Jewish Voices steering group wishes to express our horror at the flagrant disregard for the human rights of the Palestinians and the norms of international law, and our support for those many thousands who have been demonstrating their opposition around the world. We call upon the UK government to condemn the actions of the Israeli authorities, to demand an independent inquiry into the use of force on the Gaza border, to make clear that the UK embassy will remain in Tel Aviv, and to redouble all diplomatic efforts to bring the occupation to an end."

Dr Anthony Isaacs, Dr Vivienne Jackson, Dr Katy Fox-Hodess, Dr Tamar Steinitz, Professor Jacqueline Rose, Ann Jungman, Merav Pinchassoff, Professor Adam Fagan, Professor Francesa Klug
Independent Jewish Voices steering group


"In the face of the bloodshed in Gaza, too many in the west have been quick to minimise or even excuse the state-sanctioned murder of unarmed protesters. The White House labelled the innocent lives lost at the hands of Israeli troops as “part of the problem”, as it celebrated its embassy move. The UK government and Labour Friends of Israel blamed the unarmed Palestinian people for daring to protest against their repression and raised the spectre of Hamas.

Greens will continue to support the ideals of freedom, equality and respect for international law. And that includes supporting Palestinian people marking the Nakba by protesting against their illegal oppressors. We support a two-state solution but, with Netanyahu being appeased by the west at every turn, this has never seemed so far away."

Keith Taylor MEP
Green party, South East England


The Guardian also printed two letters in support of Israel. They are nonsensical and in denial. Find 'em for yourselves if you can be arsed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:26 PM

So, Mr Shaw, YOUR answer to the question??

"called for peace from both sides,"

For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose).(- RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;)
"No matter how often Hamas tells us that many rioters on Israel-Gaza border are armed, most of the media keeps referring to them as “protesters” and “demonstrators.” No matter how often Hamas acknowledges that these rioters are part of a broader “war,” the media simply won’t report it as such. And no matter how often Palestinian rioters tell reporters they want to “kill” and “burn” Jews inside Israel, left-wing journalists and pundits still frame Israel as the aggressor."

For the Palestinians, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. (- RESULT - NOBODY HURT ;My preference)
"But the fact is that if Hamas dropped its claim on Israel proper, and stopped using every opening provided to them to instigate violence, not a single person would ever have to die again in this war."


So WHICH side has control of "peace"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:47 PM

Bruce - in a positive spirit of reconciliation, I'll let you quote that paragraph of mine - no problems...

Now can we all just agree - mudcatters stop calling other mudcatters antisemetics... please...


imho, the only folks who have any genuine right to use that accusation are Jews...

And if this may be getting a bit contentious...

Except if any members & supporters of the Israeli govt/military regime exploit that accusation improperly
in cynical attempt to shut up and shut down justifiable criticism of their ideology and policies...

This particularly applies to right wing evangelical Christians
who are using Jews and Israel as a political football for their own highly dubious objectives...

I personally, will never resort to accusing anyone of antisemetism,
unless it is a blatantly obvious expression of hatred for jews..!!!.

Well.. that's just what a quarter blood jew in south west England feels...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:35 PM

"For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews "
You and are the only ones on this forum who attempts to involve the Jewish people - everybody else refers to "The Israelis"
Every time you do so you paint another target on another innocent Jew
You accuse us of being antisemitic, but it is you who constantly breaks the European guidlines and blames the Jews for Israel's terror
Israel has gone one step further in describing Jews who disapprove of their behaviour as "non-Jews" or "self-hating Jews"
This behaviour is tantamount so saying "Give up towel-heads or the Jew gets it" - in the best traditions of gangster films
I suppose it's too much to ask the mods who take time out to close threads to ask the perpetrator to refrain from antisemitic language
Some time in the not to distant future the Israelis and Palestinians are going to have to share the one land - surely, after former Yugoslavia, Myanmar and Rwanda, the world is not going to accept another ethnic cleansing
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:37 PM

For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews (the stated purpose)

That is totally at odds with what has been repeatedly stated by organisers, and many ordinary protesters. They are asserting their moral right to return to the country from which they have been exiled all their lives, and share it with all those who live there.

More to the point, in weeks of protest, as hundreds have been killed and thousands injured, I haven't seen a single case of an Israeli soldier being killed, or even injured by the action no of a protester.
..................
It strikes me that Israelis should recognise that, when Palestinians describe the events of 1948, in which they were exiled, as "The Naqba", "The Disaster", they should see that term as applying to themselves as well. The circumstances in which the State of Israel was established was hardly less of a disaster for the Israelis, and indeed for Jews in general, than it was for Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:43 PM

And no matter how often Palestinian rioters tell reporters they want to “kill” and “burn” Jews inside Israel, left-wing journalists and pundits still frame Israel as the aggressor.


JC,

The HAMAS CHARTER calls for the killing of JEWS.

Not Israelis

JEWS



"surely, after former Yugoslavia, Myanmar and Rwanda, the world is not going to accept another ethnic cleansing"

So, after allowing all those acts of murder, you claim they would finally step in for the first time ONLY WHEN IT IS A JEWISH STATE INVOLVED?

AND you forgot the ethnic cleansing of JEWS from the West Bank after 1948- but you have NEVER acknowledged that, have you?

YOUR answer to the question??

"called for peace from both sides,"

For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose).(- RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;)
"No matter how often Hamas tells us that many rioters on Israel-Gaza border are armed, most of the media keeps referring to them as “protesters” and “demonstrators.” No matter how often Hamas acknowledges that these rioters are part of a broader “war,” the media simply won’t report it as such. And no matter how often Palestinian rioters tell reporters they want to “kill” and “burn” Jews inside Israel, left-wing journalists and pundits still frame Israel as the aggressor."

For the Palestinians, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. (- RESULT - NOBODY HURT ;My preference)
"But the fact is that if Hamas dropped its claim on Israel proper, and stopped using every opening provided to them to instigate violence, not a single person would ever have to die again in this war."


So WHICH side has control of "peace"?

If you do NOT answer the question, all of Mudcat will know that you advocate the choice that kills the most Jews and Palestinians. So make a positive statement for once in your life, AGAINST murder and death.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:51 PM

McGrath,

""No matter how often Hamas tells us that many rioters on Israel-Gaza border are armed, most of the media keeps referring to them as “protesters” and “demonstrators.” No matter how often Hamas acknowledges that these rioters are part of a broader “war,” the media simply won’t report it as such. And no matter how often Palestinian rioters tell reporters they want to “kill” and “burn” Jews inside Israel, left-wing journalists and pundits still frame Israel as the aggressor.""




"Hamas isn’t merely a terrorist organization committed to murdering Jews, it’s a terrorist organization that urges its own people to become cannon fodder as a means of appealing to Western journalists and intellectuals. The higher the death toll, the happier Hamas will be. And few things have more of a detrimental effect on the Palestinian cause than the media’s asymmetrical coverage of this conflict with the Jews.

Until Palestinians shed their hatred, turn from the Israeli fences, and march towards their own governments, they will remain pawns and saps in a decades-long suicide mission. That’s because no amount of bad press about Israel’s efforts to stop violence coming from Gaza will impel that nation to create a terror state on its borders. It’s untenable, not to mention immoral. We would never contemplate such a thing. Nor would any rational country.

Despite what you’ve heard, the 35,000 Palestinian “demonstrators” massed along the security fence between Israel and Gaza — the ones throwing firebombs and other explosives, burning tires, chucking rocks (if you think these are aren’t deadly, you should see one landing; I have), and those attempting to light fires to burn crops and vegetation — are only ostensibly protesting the United States moving its embassy to Israel’s capital. I know this because Hamas doesn’t accept a U.S. embassy anywhere in Israel, as it doesn’t recognize Israel at all.

Hamas has openly asserted that it’s attempting to create incursions into Israel, and that has absolutely nothing to do with East or West or North or South Jerusalem. For Palestinians this is about the 70th anniversary of Israel — or, as they see it, Nakba. It’s about an ongoing historic effort — an intermittently theocratic or nationalistic effort, depending on the trends — to play victim.

So while it might grate against the sensibilities and preconceived notions of those covering the mess, Hamas is the oppressor in this situation. And while rioters might think they’re fighting a “war,” Israel is merely trying to stop a mob from breaching a fence. To frame this as a battle between occupier and occupied is deeply simplistic. Gaza is unoccupied territory. It is only after a Hamas coup d’etat that dispatched the opposition political party of Fatah led by Mahmoud Abbas, the internationally recognized leader of the Palestinians, that both Israel and Egypt imposed a blockade on Gaza. Like Israel, Egypt was rightly worried about the increase of Iranian influence and terrorism."


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:52 PM

I've been looking at mainstream media coverage, and I seem to have missed "Palestinian rioters tell(ing) reporters they want to “kill” and “burn” Jews inside Israel".

They definitely don't seem to have caused much damage to the Israeli soldiers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:04 PM

OK, McGrath.

Let us pull back the Israeli troops a half a kilometer.

Then we can put you and your friends, who don't believe the Hamas statements about what they intend to do, on the border in Israeli uniforms (since you claim they have no intent to harm Israelis).

When the Palestinians are finished with you, let the crowd come up to within 100 yards of the real Israeli troops- to a fixed, marked line indicating no trespassing. If they choose to invade Israel, machine-gun down the whole bunch. THAT is what you want, right? To see all of them killed?

IMO, the current efforts, while not optimal, have resulted in far fewer deaths OF PALESTINIANS than if they were allowed across the border- were, upon acting AS THEY HAVE STATED THEY WILL, the entire group, both the "innocent" crowds following Hamas orders and the Hamas combatants ("Today, one senior Hamas official bragged that around 50 to 58 of those killed by the IDF at the Israel/Gaza border “were members of Hamas.” The terrorist group had already boasted that some of those killed in were members of its armed wing. At least 24 of those killed during the riots have been identified as Hamas members by Israel — 11 of them member of the internal security apparatus. ")

will be killed by the Israelis in self defense.

THAT is what you are calling for, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:10 PM

Hamas won an election in 2006 Bruce. It wasn't a coup d'etat. The west didn't seem to accept the results of the elections. And yet again, Hamas has very little to do with Iran. Hamas is Sunni, Iran is Shia. They are financed by the Sunni monarchies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:13 PM

Golda Maier was prime minister about 50 years ago Nigel.
If you think the US will have a female President in the next 4 election cycles, good on you mate. I don't. I'm often wrong and cma/as you see.

Is it me or is Steve becoming irascible and verklempt?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:19 PM

No.

" It wasn't a coup d'etat"

Yeah right- throwing your political opponents off buildings, or putting burning tires filled with gasoline is just normal, acceptable campaigning...

No.

"Hamas has very little to do with Iran"

Previous threads discussed this- Hamas is presently getting Iranian support.

Palestinians have yet to realize that when Iran hits Israel with nuclear weapons, as encouraged by the EU efforts to allow Iran's nuclear program, the Palestinian population in Gaza and the West Bank will drop to zero - from the fallout from Iranian bombs on Israeli cities. But the Arabs have NEVER given a rat's ass about the Palestinians- They kept them in camps when Israel settled the LARGER number of Jewish refugees from Arab nations.

Even India and Pakistan have done better that the way the Palestinians were treated- BY THE ARAB LEAGUE.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:23 PM

These threads sure wouldn't be so time consuming and turgid to read,
if folks didn't keep posting the same things over and over again...

Gratuitous repetition really does not help enhance or advance an argument...!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:27 PM

Oh yes it does....


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:31 PM

When some people can't seem to answer a simple question, repetition is sometimes required.

I see nothing here but demands for Israel to stop shooting. When I see a call for the Palestinians to pull back FROM 1948 BORDER and conduct PEACEFUL protests, there may be reason to hope.

Since so many here feel the protest are unarmed and present no danger to Israelis, perhaps a group will volunteer to go over and stand between the two groups? YOU can keep the Palestinians from crossing the border. I bet the Israelis would even pull back and give you room.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:32 PM

I REPEAT:
"called for peace from both sides,"

For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose).(- RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;)
"No matter how often Hamas tells us that many rioters on Israel-Gaza border are armed, most of the media keeps referring to them as “protesters” and “demonstrators.” No matter how often Hamas acknowledges that these rioters are part of a broader “war,” the media simply won’t report it as such. And no matter how often Palestinian rioters tell reporters they want to “kill” and “burn” Jews inside Israel, left-wing journalists and pundits still frame Israel as the aggressor."

For the Palestinians, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. (- RESULT - NOBODY HURT ;My preference)
"But the fact is that if Hamas dropped its claim on Israel proper, and stopped using every opening provided to them to instigate violence, not a single person would ever have to die again in this war."


So WHICH side has control of "peace"?

Not one answer ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:32 PM

Talk about "when Iran hits Israel with nuclear weapons" is hysterical rubbish.

The only people with nuclear weapons in the region (aside from the US and Russia maybe) is Israel, with an estimated 200 such weapons.

If Trump succeeds in provoking Iran to break with its established policy of refraining from developing such weapons, the purpose of any such weapons would be as a way of deterring Israel and the US from using its weapons against Iran.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:42 PM

Hamas offered Israel a 10 year truce immediately after they won the 2006 election. Certain conditions had to be met, including returning to the pre-1967 borders. Israel rebuffed this approach.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:44 PM

Israel has had nuclear weapons ( estimated) since 1970. If they have not used them yet, given the existential threats from Iran, I think they can be trusted more than the Iranians, who in violation of the UN terms in Lebanon have supplied 150,000 anti-personnel rockets to Hezbollah, replacing the 20,000 or so that Hezbollah used on civilian populations before, in violation of the Geneva convention.


Just my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:48 PM

Mr Carter,

"Give me everything I want, and I won't try to kill you for 10 years. Then I will kill you , your family, your friends, and your state. What, you don't agree?"

THAT is what Hamas stated. LOOK at their charter, and what they teach in their schools, and what they say IN ARABIC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:57 PM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip

The Gaza Strip is rapidly running out of cooking gas and diesel fuel for hospital generators will only last another 7-10 days, officials said Sunday, after Palestinian protesters destroyed the fuel terminal at the territory's only cargo crossing.

In Friday night's attack, a large crowd broke into the Palestinian side of the Kerem Shalom crossing between Gaza and Israel, badly damaging a fuel and gas terminal and a conveyor belt for aggregate and animal feed.

Israel closed Kerem Shalom, saying it would take weeks or months to repair several million dollars in damages. It was not clear when the delivery of consumer goods by trucks would resume, said an army spokesman, Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus, adding that six trucks with medical supplies entered Gaza on Sunday.

There has been widespread speculation about the motives for the vandalism, with Israel holding Gaza's rulers from the Islamic militant Hamas group responsible. Friday's attack was the second on Kerem Shalom in a week, raising questions about why Hamas did not try to protect a key installation.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/article211055764.html#storylink=cpy


Australia's prime minister has blamed the militant group Hamas for the deaths of more than 50 Palestinians under Israeli fire along the Israel-Gaza border.

Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull told Melbourne Radio 3AW: "Hamas' conduct is confrontational. They're seeking to provoke the Israeli defense forces."

Turnbull says: "They're pushing people to the border. In that conflict zone, you're basically pushing people into circumstances where they are very likely to be shot at."


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:54 PM

Hamas won an election in 2006 Bruce. It wasn't a coup d'etat.

Hamas was NOT democratically elected to the executive branch. It won a plurality in the legislative branch. About a year after the election, Hamas and Fatah reached a power-sharing unity government under the Mecca Agreement (brokered by the Saudis). Then in June of 2007 Hamas perpetrated a violent coup (throwing Fatah officials off roof-tops) and illegally seized all power. Only about 20% of the PA population supported this military takeover.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:05 PM

Turnbull says: "They're pushing people to the border. In that conflict zone, you're basically pushing people into circumstances where they are very likely to be shot at."

Confirmed by the TESTIMONY of a Gazan who crossed the border during the #ReturnMarch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:18 PM

Yes indeed, Bruce, look at the Hamas Charter.

A new and very much revised Hamas Charter was adopted in 2017, replacing the one which you keep on referring to. This accepts the concept of a two state solution, with a Palestinian State existing alongside Israel.

A policy statement issued by Hamas asserted: “Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:30 PM

Yes indeed take a look at the "new" Hamas charter Bruce.

Article 19 of the New Charter repeats that there will never be peace so long as Israel still exists. It declares: "We do not leave any part of the Palestinians' land, under any circumstances, conditions or pressure, as long as the occupation remains. Hamas refuses any alternative which is not the whole liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea."


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 07:06 PM

"Article 19 of the New Charter repeats that there will never be peace so long as Israel still exists."
Meaninglass - Haamas will never be in the position to end the existence of a nuclear facilitaed staate with the support of another nuclear facilitated state
"The HAMAS CHARTER calls for the killing of JEWS."
The greatest threat to the Jewish People is from those who would implicate them in Israel's crimes - there are a couple of those here
Israel is claiming to carry out its crimes on behalf of the Jewish People - they have even made critics of their crimes "antisemitic"
It is hardly surprising that their victims are takint their word for it and identifying their persecutors as "Jews" - if Israel can do it, why not the ret of the world
You people have made it clear over and over again that this has never been about the defence of Jews - your own ambivalent attitude to the Jewish people is obvious
This is anout extremist right-wing politics
You defend Israel, Israel goes to the supterme racist and anti-Semite party on the planet - The Trump administration for support - and gets it
Israel draws support from Hungarian fascists and is even praised by German neo-Nazis
It has been described by one of you as "the better of two evils"
I wonder what those who met their deaths in the concentration camps would have said about appeasing the type of people who sent them to their deaths
WE KNOW WHAT SOME OF THEM DO
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 18 - 07:07 PM

Hamas calls for a Palestinian State within 1967 borders, which, while not recognising Israel, in effect implicitly accepts its existence, while retaining a commitment to a unified Palestinian State when that can be achieved, and calling for a Right of Return.

That is in many ways similar to the position of the Irish government in relation to Northern Ireland, prior to the Good Friday agreement, which modified that by requiring a popular majority for reunification in both parts of Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 18 - 02:39 AM

Ah, this is better, to have just one Israel thread going now. We've had like half a dozen in the last two weeks, and that's too much. If you want to talk about a sub-topic, talk about it in the current thread. Don't go starting new threads all the time. A wide-ranging discussion, is usually a better discussion.
All you guys be nice to each other now, and talk about Israel and Palestine. The trolling accusations are boring.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 02:49 AM

I agree with that Mac -to a to a point
Many of the problems of Israel are a hangover from British rule and the result of a hurried exit of the Imperial power with a wish to wash its hands of a self-created problem
My family celebrated the creation of Israel on behalf of their Jewish friends and neighbours- both them and their neighbours would now be facing accusations of antisemitism, despite the fact that they had played an active part in driving the antisemites off the streets of Liverpool
Israel has long given up the right to claim to represent the Jewish People - they use them , and more distastefully, The Holocaust, as a shield against condemnation of their behaviour
Iseal has attempted to rob Jews who oppose them of their Jewish identity - that goes even beyond straightforward antisemitism and enters a far darker political world.
When the Arab Spring Protests, monsters like Assad and Qaddafi turned riot police, water canons, rubber bullets, tear-gas and armoured cars on the protesters and were condemned world-wide for doing so.
From day one Israel turned out 100 snipers with orders to kill
THat is gross barbarism and any State behaving like that has no claim on being a civilised one.   
That makes me both angry and extremely sad for the Jewish People I was brought up to admire and respect
Israel has celebrated its 70th birthday with a crime against humanity - mass murder
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 18 - 03:09 AM

You do not see this explanation offered too often:

Moshe Dayan, one of the Israel’s Founding Fathers, who said in 1956:

    “What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived.” He went on: “We are a generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and gun barrel, we shall not be able to plant a tree or build a house. . . . Let us not be afraid to see the hatred that accompanies and consumes the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs who sit all around us and wait for the moment when their hands will be able to reach our blood.”

'So on the day, 61 years later, when the United States declared Jerusalem/Al Quds as the capital of Israel by moving its embassy there, rather than leaving its status to negotiation, people still trapped in Gaza protested at the gate fencing them in while Israeli military snipers picked off more than 50 of them and wounded thousands more for protesting their entrapment.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 18 - 04:33 AM

David,
Hamas offered Israel a 10 year truce immediately after they won the 2006 election. Certain conditions had to be met, including returning to the pre-1967 borders. Israel rebuffed this approach.

Israel withdrew to the pre-67 Gaza border in 2005.

Iains,
while Israeli military snipers picked off more than 50 of them and wounded thousands more for protesting their entrapment.'

Israel said they were free to demonstrate, and only fired on those threatening the border fence.
It is disputed and I am sure there will be enquiries.
Let us not pre-judge the outcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 18 - 05:06 AM

Enquiries into this bloodbath will no doubt be whitewashed. One outcome for the people of Israel is an inevitable increase in their insecurity with no prospect of peace. That's what their leaders have pitched them into. Talk of people armed with stones "threatening the border" is a massive lie. Any protester who had actually managed to get through the fence would have had absolutely nowhere to go from there and could have been taken into custody. There was never the slightest need for the IDF to open fire. Netanyahu knows that he can push things much further with Trump that he could with Obama. One fine day the ordinary people of Israel will realise what their leaders are doing to them. As things stand, nothing else can put the brakes on this brutal regime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 18 - 05:36 AM

Enquiries into this bloodbath will no doubt be whitewashed

Why?

One outcome for the people of Israel is an inevitable increase in their insecurity with no prospect of peace.

I think most believe there is no prospect of peace from Hamas, and their security has been maintained at the border.

Any protester who had actually managed to get through the fence would have had absolutely nowhere to go from there and could have been taken into custody

If the fence were breached there were tens of thousands ready to swarm in.
There are farming settlements within a mile. Previous incursions by tunnels and fence breaking have targeted any Jews within reach.

There was never the slightest need for the IDF to open fire.

That is what an enquiry would have to establish.
They may find that faced with large scale incursion there was no other way to protect the fence. Let's not pre-judge the outcome.

As things stand, nothing else can put the brakes on this brutal regime.

That is an extreme view of Israel.
It is run as a Western style liberal democracy with a vociferous opposition, free media, and regular elections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 18 - 06:32 AM

Inquiries into those kind of thing - I mean, mass killings carried out by agents of the state - are virtually always whitewashed initially, in every country. Northern Ireland, South Africa, Syria, the British Raj... sometimes there way be a subsequent inquiry eventually that sets the record straight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 18 - 06:33 AM

"Israel said they were free to demonstrate, and only fired on those threatening the border fence.
It is disputed and I am sure there will be enquiries."

Hard to esplain away the deaths and injuries of children as anything other than state sanctioned murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 18 - 06:34 AM

OR.. it is run as if it is a Western style liberal democracy with a vociferous opposition, free media, and regular elections...???

Charades...???

Penetrating questions are always healthier than received truths and blissfully oblivious closed minds...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:00 AM

PFR, it is regarded as a liberal democracy by all the other liberal democracies, and by all UK parties including Labour.
Your view of it is an unrepresentative and extreme view.

Ians,
Hard to esplain away the deaths and injuries of children as anything other than state sanctioned murder.

Enquiries will no doubt consider those deaths as well as all the others.
Let us not pre-judge the outcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:07 AM

Someone let the parrot out of it's cage again...

How do you do it...??? .. seriously I'd like to know..

Do you have your stock replies ready on a document that you just copy and paste in over and over again..

Do you actually memorise them word for word and type out in full anew..

Do you have an automated key press for each line of script...???

This is a serious question...

from one 'extremist' to another...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:11 AM

Let us hope then that there is an independent, UN sanctioned commission of enquiry with wide international participation. There are plenty of precedents for this, including Darfur, Syria etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:13 AM

PFR, if you keep making the same extreme comments, I will keep responding with the same reply.

Read Israel's side of the story here.
It also tells how supposedly desperately needed medical supplies were refused entry into Gaza by Hamas.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-defense-chief-hamas-bunch-of-cannibals-who-use-kids-as-ammunition-1.6094330


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:35 AM

I am trying to piece this together for my own understanding from both sides of the story...

In addition, I also take on board alternate perspectives and theories...

Somewhere within may be revealed some kind of 'truth'...

One sided dogma is unwelcome...

I refuse toe any official line of propaganda...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:37 AM

There are plenty of precedents for this, including Darfur, Syria etc.

No comparison, those killed in Darfur and Syria were not terrorists attempting to breach their borders with the intention of slaughtering the local population.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:45 AM

Slavers used to call Africans apes

Hitler called Jews rats

Trump has just called immigrants animals

bobad calls Palestinians murderous terrorists

All good reasons not to treat them like human beings I suppose...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:54 AM

Wow! Unarmed women and children are 'terrorists attempting to breach their borders with the intention of slaughtering the local population'! Who knew?

Meanwhile, the snipers with high velocity weapons who actually slaughtered those same unarmed women and children are, in the parallel universe of Bobad, precisely what? Angels of Mercy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:56 AM

Gaza (CNN)A senior member of Hamas' political bureau said during a TV interview on Wednesday that 50 people killed by Israeli soldiers during clashes in Gaza on Monday were members of Hamas.
Salah al-Bardaweel was responding to suggestions from the interviewer that Hamas, the militant group that runs Gaza, was sending other people to die in the protests.
"In the last round [of demonstrations] 62 people were martyred; 50 of them are from Hamas and 12 from the people," al-Bardaweel replied, adding, "I am telling you, these are official numbers."
Israeli officials have seized on the comment as supporting their position that the demonstrations at the fence separating Gaza from Israel are directed by Hamas.

White House blames Hamas for dozens of deaths in Gaza protests
White House blames Hamas for dozens of deaths in Gaza protests
Israel Defense Forces spokesman Jonathan Conricus tweeted a clip from the interview and wrote, "Senior Hamas official sets the record straight on who was killed in last Hamas-orchestrated riots: '50 of the 62 martyrs were Hamas.' Take his word for it. This was not peaceful protest."


------------------------------------------------------------

Gaza (CNN)A senior member of Hamas' political bureau said during a TV interview on Wednesday that 50 people killed by Israeli soldiers during clashes in Gaza on Monday were members of Hamas.
Salah al-Bardaweel was responding to suggestions from the interviewer that Hamas, the militant group that runs Gaza, was sending other people to die in the protests.
"In the last round [of demonstrations] 62 people were martyred; 50 of them are from Hamas and 12 from the people," al-Bardaweel replied, adding, "I am telling you, these are official numbers."

Israeli officials have seized on the comment as supporting their position that the demonstrations at the fence separating Gaza from Israel are directed by Hamas.

Israel Defense Forces spokesman Jonathan Conricus tweeted a clip from the interview and wrote, "Senior Hamas official sets the record straight on who was killed in last Hamas-orchestrated riots: '50 of the 62 martyrs were Hamas.' Take his word for it. This was not peaceful protest."

Israel's government said Bardawil had proven that its forces had acted appropriately in response to the mass attempt to cross the border with Gaza. Israel has repeatedly claimed that Hamas uses weekly border protests as cover to stage terror attacks.

"It was clear to Israel and now it is clear to the whole world that there was no popular protest; this was an organized mob of terrorists organized by Hamas," said Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Emmanuel Nahshon.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel had tallied similar numbers to Hamas', and "won't let those who call for our destruction to breach our borders and to threaten our communities."

In response to the uproar over his remarks, Bardawil later said in a statement that Israel was "legitimizing the killing of Palestinians just because they are Palestinians or just because they are Hamas, even if they were unarmed and defending their dignity and rights."

On Tuesday, the Israeli Army released a video that appeared to show protesters detonating several explosions near the border. It also said its forces had killed a squad of Hamas gunmen who opened fire at troops.

Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus, a military spokesman, said 14 of those killed Monday were actively involved in carrying out attacks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 17 May 18 - 08:06 AM

While the world freaked out over the IDF killing around 60 people of whom at least 53 were armed terrorists, in Syria on that same day 114 people were killed.

#ArabLivesMatter- but only if Israel can be blamed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 08:18 AM

But what is a proportionate response? It doesn't require an even ratio of casualties. Intention matters, too. Yes, more Palestinians have died in these clashes, but disproportion doesn't tell the full story. It's not for a lack of Hamas' trying to kill Israelis that Israeli lives have been relatively spared. The outrage ought to be directed at Hamas for imperiling its own people, actions that in any other context would constitute a war crime. Instead, the world points an accusatory finger at Israel even though arguably no other country has ever confronted such a perverse moral dilemma and demonic endgame.

Hamas has launched thousands of rockets since 2005. Very few have caused damage, due to its abysmal aim and Israel's magical Iron Dome, an aerial defense system that has destroyed incoming missiles before they ever get a chance to land. Hamas' charter calls for the annihilation of Israel. Palestinians chanting "From the river to the sea," a phrase routinely invoked at anti-Israel rallies, amounts to a genocidal ditty that dreams not of a two-state solution but a Final Solution. For their part, Palestinians from the West Bank have been attempting to kill as many Israelis as possible through intifadas, stabbings and car-rammings. Both groups just haven't been proficient enough to offset the death toll when Israel responds to Palestinian aggression with lethal force.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/16/opinions/israel-scapegoated-on-hamas-violence-rosenbaum-opinion/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 18 - 08:34 AM

PFR,
I am trying to piece this together for my own understanding from both sides of the story...

Then you must be grateful that both sides are being put, so what exactly do you object to in my posts?

I hope you read the Haaretz piece I just linked to in which Israel's side is put.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 17 May 18 - 08:37 AM

It seem that, at least for now, calm has been restored in Gaza after Egypt's warning to Hamas leaders:

Israel’s intelligence minister said that Egypt warned Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh during a brief visit to Cairo on Sunday that Egypt “knows and has proof” that Hamas was funding the Gaza riots and sending civilians to the border fence to serve “as living ammunition, women and children instead of shells and rockets.”

Israeli Intelligence Minister Israel Katz said an Egyptian intelligence chief had warned Hamas leader Haniyeh that Egypt has “proof” the terrorist group, which is in complete political and military control in Gaza, was behind the riots and sacrificing civilians for political purposes.

The Egyptian official “made unequivocally clear to him (Haniyeh) that if this continues, Israel will respond and take far harsher steps, and Egypt will stand by and will not help,” Katz told Israel Radio in an interview.

“Haniyeh returned to Gaza, Hamas gave an order … and miraculously, this spontaneous protest by a public that could not handle the situation any more dissipated.”


Israeli Intelligence Minister: Hamas Restored Calm to Gaza after Warnings from Egypt


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 08:46 AM

"No comparison, those killed in Darfur and Syria were not terrorists attempting to breach their borders"
Thaere is not shred of evidence that the protesters were terrorists - they were not armed and to dat, not one Israeli has been injured
It is despicable to accuse the victims of illegal murder of such things
To describe demonstrators as terrorists it the act of an extremist state
Had they been there would have been attempts on the lives of those doing the killing - there is no evidence of armed resistance
This really is disgusting barrel scraping
Israel is acting no different to Assa, and Verwoerd - they shot down unarmed protesters
They are mass murderers who made no attempt to stop the demonstration or 'protect its borders' using conventional means
Please don't encourage Mudcat's Norwegian Blue lads - he is one dead parrot
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 17 May 18 - 08:55 AM

Thaere is not shred of evidence that the protesters were terrorists

Except that a Hamas official said in an interview that at least 50 of the dead were Hamas members and Saraya al-Quds, the armed wing of the Khomeinist proxy Palestinian Islamic Jihad, identified another three as its own militants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 08:56 AM

"Thaere is not shred of evidence that the protesters were terrorists - they were not armed "

LIAR

"A senior member of Hamas' political bureau said during a TV interview on Wednesday that 50 people killed by Israeli soldiers during clashes in Gaza on Monday were members of Hamas."

Hamas is defined as a terrorist group- it's members are terrorists.

"a video that appeared to show protesters detonating several explosions near the border. It also said its forces had killed a squad of Hamas gunmen who opened fire at troops."



"there is no evidence of armed resistance"

OK, JC. I will catapult rocks at you, roll burning tires at you, start fires at the borders of your property, and try to tear down your walls, and tell everyone how I will "Eat your liver". Do anything about it, and I will demand an international court of my friends try and convict you.

Remember, YOU say that is ok.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:01 AM

May 17 (UPI) -- Israeli Air Force jets conducted airstrikes on Hamas targets in Gaza Strip early Thursday after shots were fired at Israeli homes from the Palestinian area.

The Israeli military said it hit four Hamas targets inside a military compound, including buildings and infrastructure. Three additional targets were hit inside a weapons production facility.

The attack was retaliation for machine gun fire that caused property damage in the Israeli town of Sderot, Israel Defense Forces said.

"The IDF considers this incident with severity and holds the terrorist organization Hamas responsible for everything that takes place within and without the Gaza Strip," the military said in a statement.

Wednesday, the IDF struck several Hamas outposts in the Gaza Strip in response to shots fired at Israeli forces.

--------------------------------------------------------------------


Oh, JC- NOW I can machine0gun your house too- totally non-violent, you said?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:03 AM

I am puzzled as to why the people who describe Hamas as evil terrorists are perfectly happy to believe them when they make a statement as to who are and who are not members of that organisation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:04 AM

"what exactly do you object to in my posts?"

Keith - What I respect is good humoured balance and objectivity...

What I mostly object to in your posts is you...

But you already know this, as I have patiently explained it to you so many times
over the last few years...

But another basic refresher...

If you could use your obvious intelligence and knowledge in sensible mature debate,
where all involved can enjoy testing their ideas and learning from each other,
that would be very welcome, and mudcat would be a little bit better for it..

But at the core of nearly all your posts is a narrow minded, blinkered, propagandising,
accusatorial, insulting, divisive, win at any cost, objectionable, devious, attention seeking little weasel...

..and your style of persistent hyperbolic repetition is very boring...

Other mudcatters may or not agree... or have more to contribute on the subject of you..

But you did ask for what I object to...

Thanks for asking, and the opportunity to clear the air [again...]...

I know I have my quirks & faults as well - few of us BS regulars are angels...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:06 AM

PFR,
I am trying to piece this together for my own understanding from both sides of the story...

In addition, I also take on board alternate perspectives and theories...

Somewhere within may be revealed some kind of 'truth'...

One sided dogma is unwelcome...

I refuse toe any official line of propaganda..


You claim to have an open mind, but just two days ago you described Israel as "AN ABHORRENT ROGUE REGIME...!!!"

Sounds like you have already made your mind up PFR.
You are not being honest about yourself.
You are clearly an anti-Israel extremist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:14 AM

"I am puzzled as to why the people who describe Hamas as evil terrorists are perfectly happy to believe them when they make a statement as to who are and who are not members of that organisation."


Gaza (CNN)A senior member of Hamas' political bureau said during a TV interview on Wednesday that 50 people killed by Israeli soldiers during clashes in Gaza on Monday were members of Hamas.
Salah al-Bardaweel was responding to suggestions from the interviewer that Hamas, the militant group that runs Gaza, was sending other people to die in the protests.
"In the last round [of demonstrations] 62 people were martyred; 50 of them are from Hamas and 12 from the people," al-Bardaweel replied, adding, "I am telling you, these are official numbers."

Are YOU calling Hamas a bunch of LIARS?


Certainly makes ME want to trust their word about their peaceful intent to kill all the"zionists" between the river and the sea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:14 AM

How many examples of blinkered, philistine pig-ignorance do you need to convince you it is just not worth it, PFR? If you are into masochism I suggest you have a word with that fiery Welsh wife of yours instead :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:17 AM

I'm not so sure, Bruce. Anyone who declares their intent is to murder innocent people cannot be a full shilling and I would not trust anything they say.

And no, I am not calling anyone a liar. I leave that to others. I am just saying that some sources need to treated with skepticism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:29 AM

"You claim to have an open mind, but just two days ago you described Israel as "AN ABHORRENT ROGUE REGIME...!!!""


Sorry - it's wrong to mock the afflicted - unless they post profusely about politics on a public board...

That was a little personal in-joke aping your style of hysterical exaggerated dogmatic proclamation...

Well.. at the time it amused me to fish for how you would respond...


DtG - sorry...sorry... sorry...
I know what I should and shouldn't do..
but when I'm half awake or bored, the little devil on my other shoulder starts whispering in my ear...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:37 AM

Not armed you say, not terrorists you say...........hmm:

Around noon on Monday, an Israeli Special Forces unit caught eight men who had managed to breach the security fence. The group opened fire on two approaching Israeli Defence Forces vehicles and threw grenades in their direction. The eight were shot dead. Three more of Monday’s dead were shot and killed while they were trying to cut through the security fence. They were armed with knives and grenades.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:42 AM

So, bobad, because some Palestinians are terrorists, and no one is denying that, it is OK to use live rounds on and randomly kill any Palestinians is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:48 AM

"There was no popular protest; this was an organized mob of terrorists organized by Hamas."
    - Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Emmanuel Nahshon.

And no fatalities were reported on Wednesday, although the Israeli military described a tense confrontation in which it said its troops were fired upon.

Israel maintains that Hamas uses weekly border protests, which have been occuring regularly since March 30, as cover to stage terror attacks.

"It was clear to Israel and now it is clear to the whole world that there was no popular protest; this was an organized mob of terrorists organized by Hamas," Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Emmanuel Nahshon said.





Over the past few days, the nature of the victims — and the role of terrorist organizations in the conflict — have become more clear.

On Tuesday, Palestinian Islamic Jihad said that three of the victims had been their people.

On Wednesday, a Hamas official said that 50 of the Palestinians who died during the border struggle were Hamas affiliates. The US has long designated both Hamas and PIJ as terrorist organizations.

The loss of even a single innocent life is a tragedy — one that nations should work diligently to avoid. But the nature of this conflict should be put in the proper context. As prominent Harvard Law School professor Alan Dershowitz wrote in The Hill, the world has been largely made to believe that Israel arbitrarily shot and killed more than 50 innocent civilians.

We know now that accusation does not even come close to the truth.


A few weeks ago, as the "protests" were first ramping up, I wrote a primer on Hamas's history of violence for readers unfamiliar with the terrorist entity. One part in particular is worth rereading:

    "Fathi Hammad, a Hamas official, once said explaining his organization's tactics: 'For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. ... The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children.'

    "He went on to explain that 'this is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly ... in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine.' It is, Hammad said, like 'they were saying to the Zionist enemy: 'We desire death like you desire life.'"

This is the kind of context that should be present in discussions the violence in Gaza, or about Hamas's participation in the conflict. So far, it largely hasn't been. That omission, along with the absence of meaningful coverage about the victims, is indicative of the way the mainstream media extinguishes fruitful exchange about the realities of the conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:51 AM

Hamas chief Ismail Haniyeh and other top Hamas leaders made a trip to Egypt on Sunday, and were told "unequivocally" that Egypt would not tolerate Hamas' continued instigation on the Gaza Strip, Israeli Intelligence Minister Israel Katz said, according to Reuters.

Egypt has acted as a political broker between Israel and Hamas, and has worked with both bitter enemies to fight ISIS.

“Haniyeh returned to Gaza, Hamas gave an order ... and miraculously, this spontaneous protest by a public that could not handle the situation any more dissipated,” Katz told Israeli media.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:51 AM

"...........hmm:"
Your "information came from Islamophobic Canadian newspaper The National Post

National Post
On May 19, 2006, the newspaper ran two pieces alleging that the Iranian parliament had passed a law requiring religious minorities to wear special identifying badges. One piece was a front-page news item titled "IRAN EYES BADGES FOR JEWS" accompanied by a 1935 picture of two Jews bearing Nazi-ordered yellow badges. Later on the same day, experts began coming forward to deny the accuracy of the Post story. The story proved to be false, but not before it had been picked up by a variety of other news media and generated comment from world leaders. Comments on the story by the Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper caused Iran to summon Canada's ambassador to Tehran, Gordon E. Venner, for an explanation.
On May 24, 2006, the editor-in-chief of the newspaper, Doug Kelly, published an apology for the story on Page 2, admitting that it was false and the National Post had not exercised enough caution or checked enough sources.[18]
Canadian Islamic Congress
From 1998 to 2014, the now defunct Canadian Islamic Congress (CIC) had been actively monitoring media coverage for anti-Muslim or anti-Islam sentiment and had issued reports highlighting its findings. It had opposed the use of phrases such as "Islamic guerrillas," "Islamic insurgency" and "Muslim militants" saying that terms like "militant" or "terrorist" should be used without a religious association "since no religion teaches or endorses terrorism, militancy or extremism."[19] The Congress had singled out the National Post, saying the paper "consistently is No. 1" as an anti-Islam media outlet.[20]

A number of writers for the National Post have subsequently criticized the CIC over accusations that the newspaper is anti-Islam. Alexander Rose, wrote that "judging by its [CIC's] support for the [2001] Durban Conference, during which hook-nosed Jews were equated with apartheid and genocide, the CIC doesn't seem to have problems with some kinds of truly inflammatory racist language" and that the CIC's "fetish for censorship in the interest of "social harmony", as the CIC puts it, reeks of the very authoritarianism oppressing Muslims in Egypt, Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia." In addition, Rose stated that "By editing out bad language, it seems, the CIC believes that correct thoughts will result, even at the necessary expense of reporting the truth."[21] Robert Fulford wrote that the CIC "justifies its existence mainly by complaining about acts of prejudice that haven't happened" and that "it's ridiculous to suggest that we avoid the subject of religion when crimes are committed in the name of that religion by men and women considered part of it",[22] while Jonathan Kay wrote that "the folks at the Canadian Islamic Congress purport to be the arbiters of what can and can't be said in this country" and that CIC President Elmasry is "the country's self-appointed judge of all that is hateful." [23]

As you say
"...........hmm:"


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:53 AM

I should have said "Your UNLINKED (again) information of course
Trawling the extremist sewer press time again
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:53 AM

I should have said "Your UNLINKED (again) information of course
Trawling the extremist sewer press time again
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:54 AM

As prominent Harvard Law School professor Alan Dershowitz wrote in The Hill, the world has been largely made to believe that Israel arbitrarily shot and killed more than 50 innocent civilians.

No one believes it was arbitrary. No one believes that all those shot were innocent. No one believes that all those shot were terrorists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:55 AM

" because some Palestinians are terrorists, and no one is denying that, it is OK to use live rounds on and randomly kill any Palestinians is it? "

Hardly random if tens out of tens of thousands are being killed. Sounds like pretty accurate targeting of know terrorists.

Remember, Hamas is using human shields ( In violation of the Geneva Conventions). Not one comment about that from the people so concerned about human* lives.

*NOTE: Obviously, Israelis are NOT human to these people- they have no problem with the attacks ON Israelis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:55 AM

According to the Jerusalem Post the claim came from "The Military" - the same ones who have just committed 100 plus murders
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:58 AM

Meanwhile, on the Gaza border, Hamas broadened its monthlong campaign to break down the Israel border, staging border "protests" attended by thousands — including terrorists who have used the supposed protests as a staging point for violent attacks on Israeli troops and territory. Palestinian terrorists have caused mass chaos, throwing Molotov cocktails at troops, attempting to rush the border, flinging explosives and tying incendiaries to kites in an attempt to set Israeli territory alight. The Israeli Defense Forces have responded with restraint. Despite this, a few dozen Palestinians have been killed, not the hundreds or thousands Hamas would presumably prefer.

But even as Yahya Sinwar, leader of Hamas in Gaza, suggested that "more than 100,000 people could storm the fence" between Israel and Gaza, and as 23-year-old Mohammed Mansoura announced, "We are excited to storm and get inside ... to kill, throw stones," the media covered the slow-rolling terror assault as a form of peaceful protest. A New York Times headline read "Israeli Troops Kill Dozens of Palestinian Protesters." A Wall Street Journal headline reads "Scores Killed, Thousands Injured as Palestinians Protest US Embassy Opening In Jerusalem."

Never mind that the riots had been going on for weeks preceding the embassy opening. Never mind that Hamas and the Palestinian Authority could quickly and permanently end all violence simply by stopping the violence. The real issue, according to the press, is President Trump and his Israeli friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 10:07 AM

JC,

"Many of the problems of Israel are a hangover from British rule and the result of a hurried exit of the Imperial power with a wish to wash its hands of a self-created problem"

I AGREE 100% on this point.


But the Arab League has something to answer for, as well.
Look at India and Pakistan- FAR more refugees and killing, but NO current refugee camps like those created by the Arab League to keep the Palestinians in as a source of cannon fodder. NO resident population of millions of descendants of refugees being kept homeless by those who should have taken them in, as Israel did with the greater number of Jews driven out of Arab nations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 10:11 AM

And according to the reports, the claims YOU keep posting come from Hamas,- the same ones who have just committed multiple violations of the Geneva conventions using human shields in the present attacks on the PRE-1967 ( 1948) BORDER of Israel, that they CLAIM to recognize ( according to McGrath) as valid.

So? What information will YOU accept- ONLY that that meets your preset idea of what is happening?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 May 18 - 10:12 AM

No one believes it was arbitrary. No one believes that all those shot were innocent. No one believes that all those shot were terrorists.

These people were unarmed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 18 - 10:14 AM

"non lethal riot control methods"....

that'd possibly be an interesting thing to google for anyone who has sufficient interest and time.....

How far did military scientists get with developing the 'brown note' sonic weapon...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 18 - 10:15 AM

Bruce, the issue of using human shields is indeed a very serious breach of human rights and needs to be addressed by a separate discussion. Remember we have had those that have stated quite categorically on this forum that collateral damage can be completely avoided nowadays. The number of killed and wounded seems to indicate that this was not the case here.

I also agree that to some Palestinians Israelis are justifiable targets. Just as the British were legitimate targets for the IRA, the Twin Towers attack was justified to al-Qaeda and 13 dead made sense to Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold at Columbine. But that is all 'whataboutism'. 2 wrongs do not make a right and cannot be used to justify mass shootings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 18 - 10:17 AM

interesting duplication of the word interest..

must not edit and post in a hurry to go out and catch a train...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 10:18 AM

"Meanwhile, on the Gaza border, "
Taken from THE DAILY WIRE
This has become nothing more than meaningless propaganda hurling
"Meanwhile, on the real Gaza border"
THE SHOOTING DOWN OF ONE HUNDRED PLUS UNARMED DEMONSTRATORS, INCLUDING CHILDREN, WITHOUT MAKING ANY EFFORT CONTROL THEM BY CONVENTIONAL WAYS IS MASS MURDER - SIMPLE BUTCHERY   
IT IS NOW BEING RECOGNIZED AS SUCH

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 18 - 10:21 AM

Even the Welsh Nationalists tried bombing the English,
until they realised they were just not cut out to be 'terrorists'...

Now they use a new more devastating method of undermining English domination
- they marry us...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 10:34 AM

Only Welsh woman I know is a poetess- Mab Jones. Met her at the Smithsonian Folk Festival (back in 2009?).

IMO, the Palestinians are truly victims- Of the brutality of the Arab League, in not settling them back in 1948.

Until their supporters here are willing to address the greater numbers of Jews driven out of Arab nations AND SETTLED BY ISRAEL, and the ethnic cleaning of the West bank after the 1948 war, there will never be any consensus here about the region.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 18 - 10:42 AM

Until their supporters here are willing to address the greater numbers of Jews driven out of Arab nations AND SETTLED BY ISRAEL, and the ethnic cleaning of the West bank after the 1948 war, there will never be any consensus here about the region.

No matter how may times that is addressed and acknowledged absolutely nothing can be done about it. It happened 70 years ago and, unless you can provide a time machine, what do you expect people to do? The problems in Gaza are happening now and things can be done about them. You cannot justify what is happening now by saying the Arabs did much worse. Unless you are just talking about revenge?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 10:54 AM

NO-ONE has called on ANY COUNTRY BUT Israel to take in these Palestinian refugees- WHY IS THAT?

Why doesn't Iran, which drove out a large Jewish population, take in the Palestinians and provide homes for them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 10:59 AM

"NO-ONE has called on ANY COUNTRY BUT Israel to take in these Palestinian refugees- WHY IS THAT? "
Not true actually, but beside the point
This is Keith's stupid argument - Israel must be innocent because decent counties are staying silent
Now Palestinians must be guilty because nobodt is offering shelter
The world is now facing a massive refugee crisis on a scale never seen - why should countries already involved in dealing with them want to add to that problem
If Israel get's its way and ethnically cleanses the Artabs fro their homes that crisis will expand beyond belied
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 18 - 11:02 AM

hindsight and all that...

But common sense leads to a thought that the small size area of land hastily determined back then to be called "Israel"
could never be big enough for future needs and population growth,
or realistically peacefully expanded upon...

The whole post war Israel project seems incompetently planned & executed,
and doomed to perennial serious problems, if not complete failure...

Even our local council town planners have a bit more clue than that..


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 11:05 AM

Interesting reading here
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/irans-jews-on-life-inside-israels-enemy-state-we-feel-secure-and-happy-a6934931.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 11:13 AM

"Now Palestinians must be guilty because nobodt is offering shelter"

NOT what I said- the Palestinians are VICTIMS here- but IMO it is wrong to blame Israel for the failings of the Arab League.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 17 May 18 - 11:21 AM

it is OK to use live rounds on and randomly kill any Palestinians is it?

Logical fallacy of argument from false premise.

These are the rules of engagement being followed by the IDF:

First shoot to warn
Then shoot to wound
As a last resort then shoot to kill


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 11:23 AM

Iran is the only country providing military support to Hamas in its war to destroy Israel, a top Hamas official stated.

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) reported this week that the Hamas terror group’s deputy political bureau chief, Saleh al-Arouri, told the Lebanese Al-Quds television network that Iran is the only country providing military support to Hamas to fight the “Israeli entity.”

“On the one hand, there are countries that support Israel, and conspire with it day in and day out, and sacrifice Jerusalem and the holy places, and on the other hand, we have [Iran] which provides aid against the Israeli entity,” said Arouri.

“Who supported the resistance in Lebanon until it drove out the Israeli entity? It was Iran. Who supports the resistance in Gaza and Palestine? Iran,” he added.

“Our relations with Iran are based on the fact that Iran is the most hostile country in the world toward the Zionist entity. Iran is the only country that says that this entity is cancerous. This is Iran’s official position….The aid Iran provides to the resistance is not merely symbolic. This is real aid, which is essential for the resistance to continue and be effective.”

The comments come amid nationwide protests in Iran against the country’s Islamist regime for financial corruption, and for supporting terrorist entities including Hezbollah and Hamas abroad while the economic situation for residents of Iran steadily deteriorated.

Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) Quds Force Commander Gen. Qassem Soleimani pledged all of Iran’s “capabilities and potential” to Hamas in a phone call with the group’s leader last month.

Hamas leader Yahye Sinwar said that the general assured him, “All our of capabilities and potential are at your disposal in the battle for the defense of Jerusalem.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 18 - 11:45 AM

Interesting...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 17 May 18 - 11:46 AM

David Horovitz tell it like is:

Palestinians are being mobilized for a 'right' they do not have and a 'return' that will not happen. Why does the international community insist on helping Hamas delude them?

World must tell Gaza’s Hamas-abused masses the truth: There will be no ‘return’


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 11:49 AM

Geneva (AFP) - The UN agency for Palestinian refugees is fuelling "unrealistic" hopes of return after 70 years of exodus and is therefore helping keep the Mideast conflict alive, Switzerland's foreign minister said Thursday.

The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA)was established after the war surrounding Israel's creation in 1948, when around 700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled.

But Swiss Foreign Minister Ignazio Cassis pointed out that the number of Palestinian refugees living in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza has swelled to more than five million.

"It is unrealistic that this dream (of return) will be fulfilled for all," he said in an interview given to several German-language papers owned by the Swiss NZZ group.

"But UNRWA maintains this hope. For me, the question is whether UNRWA is part of the solution or part of the problem," he said, concluding that "it is both".

The UN agency, he said, "worked as a solution for a long time, but today it has become part of the problem."

- Fuelling the conflict? -

"It provides ammunition to continue the conflict. For as long as Palestinians live in refugee camps, they will want to return to their homeland," he said.

"By supporting UNRWA, we are keeping the conflict alive."


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 11:54 AM

"These are the rules of engagement being followed by the IDF"
Do those rules say anything about unmarred demonstrators or do the just apply to combat situations ?
From the beginning the snipers were taking out unarmed protesters - the first fatality was a farmer who had nothing to do with all this

Israel came into being using terrorism - all groups facing unassailable odds do so
Not so long ago Israel celebrated THIS ACT OF TERROR
Palestinian "terrorism" is no different - it is in order protect their himeland - it is Israel who is the aggressor, as is shown my this act of mass murder
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 12:05 PM

No, JC. I disagree with you.


Gaza is NOT being invaded- Israel is. This is the pre-1967 truce line that supposedly Hamas want to go back to in a two-state solution- AND IT IS TRYING TO CROSS INTO ISRAEL.

The aggressor is clear -HAMAS- and using human shields and the blood of innocents to sway public opinion away from the facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 12:16 PM

The Israeli military says it has carried out airstrikes on militant sites in Gaza overnight in response to machine gun fire that hit a building in the Israeli city of Sderot.

The army said Thursday that planes bombarded a military compound and a weapons production facility in the northern Gaza Strip.

The Palestinian health ministry says a man was moderately wounded by shrapnel, but didn't say whether he was inside a militant site or nearby.

The airstrikes Thursday came hours after Israeli forces came under fire from the Palestinian territory. The military said no troops were wounded in Wednesday's exchange.

Israeli fire killed nearly 60 Palestinians on Monday during a protest along the Gaza border. A senior Hamas official said 50 of those killed were members of the militant group.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 12:50 PM

"No, JC. I disagree with you."
I have no doubt you do
No nation has the right to exclude former residents who flee from war zones
THIS IN ITSELF IS A WARCRIME
The aggressor is the state that created the largest number of refugees from one country on the planet
Hamas is doing no more than was done by the Israeli freedom fighters
In the end, this has to end by the two warring groups accepting each other - anything else would be another crime against humanity
The isralis arw persistent war criminals who have only avoided being tride as such by United States vetoes
They even demanded that the International Criminal Court be dismantled before they would face trial
THere has yet to be a single Israeli casualty in this slaughter - it is simple butchery, however you choose to describe it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 12:56 PM

Again, JC, you have to repeat it THREE times, and that will only work with Sidhe.


With posters here, you need to present FACTS that pertain to the point you wish to make.

"In the end, this has to end by the two warring groups accepting each other - anything else would be another crime against humanity"

So, YOU have accused HAMAS of still ANOTHER crime against humanity? THEY are the ones who have declared they will NEVER make peace. Right in their charter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 18 - 01:09 PM

This is Keith's stupid argument - Israel must be innocent because decent counties are staying silent

Yes. Decent democratic countries would not stay silent about state terrorism if it was true, and nor would the Labour Party in Britain.

It shows how exteme and unrepresentative are the views being expressed here by the dominant group of posters on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 01:12 PM

" "We do not leave any part of the Palestinians' land, under any circumstances, conditions or pressure, as long as the occupation remains. Hamas refuses any alternative which is not the whole liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea." "


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 18 - 01:34 PM

It seems to me that Israel and the State of Palestine are getting along reasonably well, despite constant friction on many issues. Gaza is another matter. It seems like peace between Israel and Gaza is impossible without the total destruction of one side or another - but there ought to be a better way.

Both sides have good reason to hate the other. In past years, missiles from Gaza have struck dangerously close to Tel Aviv, so Israel has good reason not to trust Gaza. But Gaza has been besieged by Israel for decades, so Gaza has good reason for animosity. Mudcat debaters express animosity on both sides, but no peaceful or practical solutions. What ca be done other than continuing to fight?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 01:42 PM

"Again, JC, you have to repeat it THREE times, and that will only work with Sidhe."
And you have refused to respond
Whatever way you try to paint it you are sporting mass murder and ethnic cleansing
Every propoal put by Israel to teh Palestinians has demand a retention of the status quo and the stolen land - every single one
THey have gone as far as claiming Palestinians do not exist (Golda Meir started that one)
I have no interest in the politicians of either side - no politician is to be trusted - my concern is that human beings should be able live in peace unmolested - Israel has refused to let that happen from day one - they remain the aggressors and have now elevated that butchery from the shadows right into the the public gaze
THey are relying on the scum of the political world for not being tried
Is that the Israel the sicx million you are hiding behind would have wanted
Not in my experience it wasn't
At least we have established that this has nothing to do with the Jewish People - and those who claim it is are antisemites who have no shame

Who let that friggin' parrot back in!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 18 - 01:47 PM

Funny, I was under the impression that most of the dead were Hamas terrorists!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 01:48 PM

Joe,

I asked a simple question of those blaming Israel:

"called for peace from both sides,"

For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose).(- RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;)
"No matter how often Hamas tells us that many rioters on Israel-Gaza border are armed, most of the media keeps referring to them as “protesters” and “demonstrators.” No matter how often Hamas acknowledges that these rioters are part of a broader “war,” the media simply won’t report it as such. And no matter how often Palestinian rioters tell reporters they want to “kill” and “burn” Jews inside Israel, left-wing journalists and pundits still frame Israel as the aggressor."

For the Palestinians, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. (- RESULT - NOBODY HURT ;My preference)
"But the fact is that if Hamas dropped its claim on Israel proper, and stopped using every opening provided to them to instigate violence, not a single person would ever have to die again in this war."


So WHICH side has control of "peace"?

Not one answer ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 01:52 PM

Your quote was from The Gatestone Institute
The Gatestone Institute (formerly Stonegate Institute and Hudson New York) is a right-wing[2][3][4] anti-Muslim[5] think tank that publishes articles, particularly pertaining to Islam and the Middle East. The organization has attracted attention for publishing false articles and being a source of viral falsehoods.[5][6][7][8][9] Gatestone was founded in 2012 by Nina Rosenwald, who serves as its president.[10] Former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations John R. Bolton, now national security advisor, was its chairman from 2013 to March
Why do you people pretend to support the Jewish People yet draw youer quotes from the very people who sent six million of them to their deaths
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 01:53 PM

JC,

"And you have refused to respond
Whatever way you try to paint it you are sporting mass murder and ethnic cleansing"

Wrong again.

You stated an opinion- IN MY OPINION, YOU are the supporter of those seeking mass murder and who have ALREADY committed ethnic cleansing.

AS I have stated, and provided my reasoning- which you never answered.

So tell me I have refused to respond again and I will bring up all the time YOU have not, LIKE THE LEFT'S support of the Nazis in WW II Ireland and YOUR refusal to condemn it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 02:01 PM

Whose quote? NOT MINE.


Please prefix your claims with an addressee.


And from now on, let us know if anything YOU post is from an Arab or Leftist source. Have to weed out the propaganda, rather than look at both sides...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 18 - 02:04 PM

I certainly don't support the murdering hamas terrorists, whom I believe carrot head Corbyn does gladly support.........hey ho!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 02:36 PM

"Whose quote? NOT MINE."
If your quote came from the Jerusalem pot it was a verbatim repeat of the original Gatestone article
Which shows how low Israel has sunk
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 02:39 PM

JC,

YOU never addressed the reasons I disagreed with you.



Gaza is NOT being invaded- Israel is. This is the pre-1967 truce line that supposedly Hamas want to go back to in a two-state solution- AND IT IS TRYING TO CROSS INTO ISRAEL.

The aggressor is clear -HAMAS- and using human shields and the blood of innocents to sway public opinion away from the facts.




Since you said NOTHING about them, I guess you agree with me. Right? Isn't that how you have always posted?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 02:56 PM

No matter how often Hamas tells us that rioters on the Israel-Gaza border are armed, most of the media keeps referring to them as “protesters” and “demonstrators.” No matter how often Hamas acknowledges that rioters are part of a broader “war,” the media simply won’t report it as such. And no matter how often those rioters tell reporters they want to “kill” and “burn” Jews inside Israel, left-wing journalists and pundits still frame Israel as the aggressor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 03:00 PM

JC,

"my concern is that human beings should be able live in peace unmolested"


"called for peace from both sides,"

For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose).(- RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;)


For the Palestinians, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. (- RESULT - NOBODY HURT ;My preference)

"But the fact is that if Hamas dropped its claim on Israel proper, and stopped using every opening provided to them to instigate violence, not a single person would ever have to die again in this war."


So WHICH side has control of "peace"?

ANSWER THE QUESTION.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 03:22 PM

"According to The New York Times, “loudspeakers on minarets urged Palestinians to rush the fence bordering Israel, where they were met by army snipers.” The Washington Post reports that “organizers urged demonstrators to burst through the fence, telling them Israeli soldiers were fleeing their positions, even as they were reinforcing them.”

Which suggests that Hamas, the terrorist group that rules Gaza, incited protesters to dash toward Israeli military positions, likely knowing that many would be killed. Hamas leaders had to know that the carnage would ignite an international backlash against Israel and the U.S.

If Palestinian leaders want to know who is responsible for the deaths Monday, they should glance in the mirror.

That said, let’s also note that many of the demonstrators were peaceful. They came to protest what they call the nakba, or catastrophe: the creation of the state of Israel 70 years ago. They came to reassert their “right of return” to what is now Israel. They came to express their despair — as generations of Palestinians have. And they came to denounce the U.S. embassy switch.

But let’s be clear: Moving the American embassy to Jerusalem doesn’t preclude anything in an eventual Israeli-Palestinian peace deal. The fate of Jerusalem has always been part of negotiations between the sides, if and when they start speaking again.

A Palestinian state is not foreordained, however. Early in his term, President Trump shook up the Middle East status quo by declaring that he would not insist on the creation of a Palestinian state as part of a peace accord.

Leaders of the Palestinians have a choice: They can keep sending their young people to their deaths.

Or they can turn from violent confrontation to constructive negotiation. They can resume their path toward a Palestinian state.

Even as we write that sentence — expressing the hope for a two-state solution that we’ve repeated over and over — it seems more far-fetched than ever. The reality on the ground is that nothing will change until Palestinian leaders stop inciting violence and start telling their people the truth: Palestinians can have a state. But not until they accept that the Israel they loathe is in the neighborhood to stay."
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-israel-trump-jerusalem-palestinians-20180514-story.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 18 - 03:45 PM

Instead of all this hate, try thinking...

Why Jews In Solidarity With Palestinians Will Win The Day


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 17 May 18 - 04:04 PM

Why on earth would anyone bother to answer your questions, BeardedBruce, when you pay no attention to the answers? Your dogmatic approach doesn't help threads, it kills them.


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 18 October 7:50 AM EDT

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