BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:43 PM

And no matter how often Palestinian rioters tell reporters they want to “kill” and “burn” Jews inside Israel, left-wing journalists and pundits still frame Israel as the aggressor.


JC,

The HAMAS CHARTER calls for the killing of JEWS.

Not Israelis

JEWS



"surely, after former Yugoslavia, Myanmar and Rwanda, the world is not going to accept another ethnic cleansing"

So, after allowing all those acts of murder, you claim they would finally step in for the first time ONLY WHEN IT IS A JEWISH STATE INVOLVED?

AND you forgot the ethnic cleansing of JEWS from the West Bank after 1948- but you have NEVER acknowledged that, have you?

YOUR answer to the question??

"called for peace from both sides,"

For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose).(- RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;)
"No matter how often Hamas tells us that many rioters on Israel-Gaza border are armed, most of the media keeps referring to them as “protesters” and “demonstrators.” No matter how often Hamas acknowledges that these rioters are part of a broader “war,” the media simply won’t report it as such. And no matter how often Palestinian rioters tell reporters they want to “kill” and “burn” Jews inside Israel, left-wing journalists and pundits still frame Israel as the aggressor."

For the Palestinians, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. (- RESULT - NOBODY HURT ;My preference)
"But the fact is that if Hamas dropped its claim on Israel proper, and stopped using every opening provided to them to instigate violence, not a single person would ever have to die again in this war."


So WHICH side has control of "peace"?

If you do NOT answer the question, all of Mudcat will know that you advocate the choice that kills the most Jews and Palestinians. So make a positive statement for once in your life, AGAINST murder and death.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:51 PM

McGrath,

""No matter how often Hamas tells us that many rioters on Israel-Gaza border are armed, most of the media keeps referring to them as “protesters” and “demonstrators.” No matter how often Hamas acknowledges that these rioters are part of a broader “war,” the media simply won’t report it as such. And no matter how often Palestinian rioters tell reporters they want to “kill” and “burn” Jews inside Israel, left-wing journalists and pundits still frame Israel as the aggressor.""




"Hamas isn’t merely a terrorist organization committed to murdering Jews, it’s a terrorist organization that urges its own people to become cannon fodder as a means of appealing to Western journalists and intellectuals. The higher the death toll, the happier Hamas will be. And few things have more of a detrimental effect on the Palestinian cause than the media’s asymmetrical coverage of this conflict with the Jews.

Until Palestinians shed their hatred, turn from the Israeli fences, and march towards their own governments, they will remain pawns and saps in a decades-long suicide mission. That’s because no amount of bad press about Israel’s efforts to stop violence coming from Gaza will impel that nation to create a terror state on its borders. It’s untenable, not to mention immoral. We would never contemplate such a thing. Nor would any rational country.

Despite what you’ve heard, the 35,000 Palestinian “demonstrators” massed along the security fence between Israel and Gaza — the ones throwing firebombs and other explosives, burning tires, chucking rocks (if you think these are aren’t deadly, you should see one landing; I have), and those attempting to light fires to burn crops and vegetation — are only ostensibly protesting the United States moving its embassy to Israel’s capital. I know this because Hamas doesn’t accept a U.S. embassy anywhere in Israel, as it doesn’t recognize Israel at all.

Hamas has openly asserted that it’s attempting to create incursions into Israel, and that has absolutely nothing to do with East or West or North or South Jerusalem. For Palestinians this is about the 70th anniversary of Israel — or, as they see it, Nakba. It’s about an ongoing historic effort — an intermittently theocratic or nationalistic effort, depending on the trends — to play victim.

So while it might grate against the sensibilities and preconceived notions of those covering the mess, Hamas is the oppressor in this situation. And while rioters might think they’re fighting a “war,” Israel is merely trying to stop a mob from breaching a fence. To frame this as a battle between occupier and occupied is deeply simplistic. Gaza is unoccupied territory. It is only after a Hamas coup d’etat that dispatched the opposition political party of Fatah led by Mahmoud Abbas, the internationally recognized leader of the Palestinians, that both Israel and Egypt imposed a blockade on Gaza. Like Israel, Egypt was rightly worried about the increase of Iranian influence and terrorism."

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:52 PM

I've been looking at mainstream media coverage, and I seem to have missed "Palestinian rioters tell(ing) reporters they want to “kill” and “burn” Jews inside Israel".

They definitely don't seem to have caused much damage to the Israeli soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:04 PM

OK, McGrath.

Let us pull back the Israeli troops a half a kilometer.

Then we can put you and your friends, who don't believe the Hamas statements about what they intend to do, on the border in Israeli uniforms (since you claim they have no intent to harm Israelis).

When the Palestinians are finished with you, let the crowd come up to within 100 yards of the real Israeli troops- to a fixed, marked line indicating no trespassing. If they choose to invade Israel, machine-gun down the whole bunch. THAT is what you want, right? To see all of them killed?

IMO, the current efforts, while not optimal, have resulted in far fewer deaths OF PALESTINIANS than if they were allowed across the border- were, upon acting AS THEY HAVE STATED THEY WILL, the entire group, both the "innocent" crowds following Hamas orders and the Hamas combatants ("Today, one senior Hamas official bragged that around 50 to 58 of those killed by the IDF at the Israel/Gaza border “were members of Hamas.” The terrorist group had already boasted that some of those killed in were members of its armed wing. At least 24 of those killed during the riots have been identified as Hamas members by Israel — 11 of them member of the internal security apparatus. ")

will be killed by the Israelis in self defense.

THAT is what you are calling for, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:10 PM

Hamas won an election in 2006 Bruce. It wasn't a coup d'etat. The west didn't seem to accept the results of the elections. And yet again, Hamas has very little to do with Iran. Hamas is Sunni, Iran is Shia. They are financed by the Sunni monarchies.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:13 PM

Golda Maier was prime minister about 50 years ago Nigel.
If you think the US will have a female President in the next 4 election cycles, good on you mate. I don't. I'm often wrong and cma/as you see.

Is it me or is Steve becoming irascible and verklempt?

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:19 PM

No.

" It wasn't a coup d'etat"

Yeah right- throwing your political opponents off buildings, or putting burning tires filled with gasoline is just normal, acceptable campaigning...

No.

"Hamas has very little to do with Iran"

Previous threads discussed this- Hamas is presently getting Iranian support.

Palestinians have yet to realize that when Iran hits Israel with nuclear weapons, as encouraged by the EU efforts to allow Iran's nuclear program, the Palestinian population in Gaza and the West Bank will drop to zero - from the fallout from Iranian bombs on Israeli cities. But the Arabs have NEVER given a rat's ass about the Palestinians- They kept them in camps when Israel settled the LARGER number of Jewish refugees from Arab nations.

Even India and Pakistan have done better that the way the Palestinians were treated- BY THE ARAB LEAGUE.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:23 PM

These threads sure wouldn't be so time consuming and turgid to read,
if folks didn't keep posting the same things over and over again...

Gratuitous repetition really does not help enhance or advance an argument...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:27 PM

Oh yes it does....

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:31 PM

When some people can't seem to answer a simple question, repetition is sometimes required.

I see nothing here but demands for Israel to stop shooting. When I see a call for the Palestinians to pull back FROM 1948 BORDER and conduct PEACEFUL protests, there may be reason to hope.

Since so many here feel the protest are unarmed and present no danger to Israelis, perhaps a group will volunteer to go over and stand between the two groups? YOU can keep the Palestinians from crossing the border. I bet the Israelis would even pull back and give you room.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:32 PM

I REPEAT:
"called for peace from both sides,"

For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose).(- RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;)
"No matter how often Hamas tells us that many rioters on Israel-Gaza border are armed, most of the media keeps referring to them as “protesters” and “demonstrators.” No matter how often Hamas acknowledges that these rioters are part of a broader “war,” the media simply won’t report it as such. And no matter how often Palestinian rioters tell reporters they want to “kill” and “burn” Jews inside Israel, left-wing journalists and pundits still frame Israel as the aggressor."

For the Palestinians, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. (- RESULT - NOBODY HURT ;My preference)
"But the fact is that if Hamas dropped its claim on Israel proper, and stopped using every opening provided to them to instigate violence, not a single person would ever have to die again in this war."


So WHICH side has control of "peace"?

Not one answer ...

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:32 PM

Talk about "when Iran hits Israel with nuclear weapons" is hysterical rubbish.

The only people with nuclear weapons in the region (aside from the US and Russia maybe) is Israel, with an estimated 200 such weapons.

If Trump succeeds in provoking Iran to break with its established policy of refraining from developing such weapons, the purpose of any such weapons would be as a way of deterring Israel and the US from using its weapons against Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:42 PM

Hamas offered Israel a 10 year truce immediately after they won the 2006 election. Certain conditions had to be met, including returning to the pre-1967 borders. Israel rebuffed this approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:44 PM

Israel has had nuclear weapons ( estimated) since 1970. If they have not used them yet, given the existential threats from Iran, I think they can be trusted more than the Iranians, who in violation of the UN terms in Lebanon have supplied 150,000 anti-personnel rockets to Hezbollah, replacing the 20,000 or so that Hezbollah used on civilian populations before, in violation of the Geneva convention.


Just my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:48 PM

Mr Carter,

"Give me everything I want, and I won't try to kill you for 10 years. Then I will kill you , your family, your friends, and your state. What, you don't agree?"

THAT is what Hamas stated. LOOK at their charter, and what they teach in their schools, and what they say IN ARABIC.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:57 PM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip

The Gaza Strip is rapidly running out of cooking gas and diesel fuel for hospital generators will only last another 7-10 days, officials said Sunday, after Palestinian protesters destroyed the fuel terminal at the territory's only cargo crossing.

In Friday night's attack, a large crowd broke into the Palestinian side of the Kerem Shalom crossing between Gaza and Israel, badly damaging a fuel and gas terminal and a conveyor belt for aggregate and animal feed.

Israel closed Kerem Shalom, saying it would take weeks or months to repair several million dollars in damages. It was not clear when the delivery of consumer goods by trucks would resume, said an army spokesman, Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus, adding that six trucks with medical supplies entered Gaza on Sunday.

There has been widespread speculation about the motives for the vandalism, with Israel holding Gaza's rulers from the Islamic militant Hamas group responsible. Friday's attack was the second on Kerem Shalom in a week, raising questions about why Hamas did not try to protect a key installation.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/article211055764.html#storylink=cpy


Australia's prime minister has blamed the militant group Hamas for the deaths of more than 50 Palestinians under Israeli fire along the Israel-Gaza border.

Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull told Melbourne Radio 3AW: "Hamas' conduct is confrontational. They're seeking to provoke the Israeli defense forces."

Turnbull says: "They're pushing people to the border. In that conflict zone, you're basically pushing people into circumstances where they are very likely to be shot at."

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:54 PM

Hamas won an election in 2006 Bruce. It wasn't a coup d'etat.

Hamas was NOT democratically elected to the executive branch. It won a plurality in the legislative branch. About a year after the election, Hamas and Fatah reached a power-sharing unity government under the Mecca Agreement (brokered by the Saudis). Then in June of 2007 Hamas perpetrated a violent coup (throwing Fatah officials off roof-tops) and illegally seized all power. Only about 20% of the PA population supported this military takeover.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:05 PM

Turnbull says: "They're pushing people to the border. In that conflict zone, you're basically pushing people into circumstances where they are very likely to be shot at."

Confirmed by the TESTIMONY of a Gazan who crossed the border during the #ReturnMarch.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:18 PM

Yes indeed, Bruce, look at the Hamas Charter.

A new and very much revised Hamas Charter was adopted in 2017, replacing the one which you keep on referring to. This accepts the concept of a two state solution, with a Palestinian State existing alongside Israel.

A policy statement issued by Hamas asserted: “Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.”

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:30 PM

Yes indeed take a look at the "new" Hamas charter Bruce.

Article 19 of the New Charter repeats that there will never be peace so long as Israel still exists. It declares: "We do not leave any part of the Palestinians' land, under any circumstances, conditions or pressure, as long as the occupation remains. Hamas refuses any alternative which is not the whole liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea."

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 07:06 PM

"Article 19 of the New Charter repeats that there will never be peace so long as Israel still exists."
Meaninglass - Haamas will never be in the position to end the existence of a nuclear facilitaed staate with the support of another nuclear facilitated state
"The HAMAS CHARTER calls for the killing of JEWS."
The greatest threat to the Jewish People is from those who would implicate them in Israel's crimes - there are a couple of those here
Israel is claiming to carry out its crimes on behalf of the Jewish People - they have even made critics of their crimes "antisemitic"
It is hardly surprising that their victims are takint their word for it and identifying their persecutors as "Jews" - if Israel can do it, why not the ret of the world
You people have made it clear over and over again that this has never been about the defence of Jews - your own ambivalent attitude to the Jewish people is obvious
This is anout extremist right-wing politics
You defend Israel, Israel goes to the supterme racist and anti-Semite party on the planet - The Trump administration for support - and gets it
Israel draws support from Hungarian fascists and is even praised by German neo-Nazis
It has been described by one of you as "the better of two evils"
I wonder what those who met their deaths in the concentration camps would have said about appeasing the type of people who sent them to their deaths
WE KNOW WHAT SOME OF THEM DO
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 18 - 07:07 PM

Hamas calls for a Palestinian State within 1967 borders, which, while not recognising Israel, in effect implicitly accepts its existence, while retaining a commitment to a unified Palestinian State when that can be achieved, and calling for a Right of Return.

That is in many ways similar to the position of the Irish government in relation to Northern Ireland, prior to the Good Friday agreement, which modified that by requiring a popular majority for reunification in both parts of Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 18 - 02:39 AM

Ah, this is better, to have just one Israel thread going now. We've had like half a dozen in the last two weeks, and that's too much. If you want to talk about a sub-topic, talk about it in the current thread. Don't go starting new threads all the time. A wide-ranging discussion, is usually a better discussion.
All you guys be nice to each other now, and talk about Israel and Palestine. The trolling accusations are boring.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 02:49 AM

I agree with that Mac -to a to a point
Many of the problems of Israel are a hangover from British rule and the result of a hurried exit of the Imperial power with a wish to wash its hands of a self-created problem
My family celebrated the creation of Israel on behalf of their Jewish friends and neighbours- both them and their neighbours would now be facing accusations of antisemitism, despite the fact that they had played an active part in driving the antisemites off the streets of Liverpool
Israel has long given up the right to claim to represent the Jewish People - they use them , and more distastefully, The Holocaust, as a shield against condemnation of their behaviour
Iseal has attempted to rob Jews who oppose them of their Jewish identity - that goes even beyond straightforward antisemitism and enters a far darker political world.
When the Arab Spring Protests, monsters like Assad and Qaddafi turned riot police, water canons, rubber bullets, tear-gas and armoured cars on the protesters and were condemned world-wide for doing so.
From day one Israel turned out 100 snipers with orders to kill
THat is gross barbarism and any State behaving like that has no claim on being a civilised one.   
That makes me both angry and extremely sad for the Jewish People I was brought up to admire and respect
Israel has celebrated its 70th birthday with a crime against humanity - mass murder
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 18 - 03:09 AM

You do not see this explanation offered too often:

Moshe Dayan, one of the Israel’s Founding Fathers, who said in 1956:

    “What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived.” He went on: “We are a generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and gun barrel, we shall not be able to plant a tree or build a house. . . . Let us not be afraid to see the hatred that accompanies and consumes the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs who sit all around us and wait for the moment when their hands will be able to reach our blood.”

'So on the day, 61 years later, when the United States declared Jerusalem/Al Quds as the capital of Israel by moving its embassy there, rather than leaving its status to negotiation, people still trapped in Gaza protested at the gate fencing them in while Israeli military snipers picked off more than 50 of them and wounded thousands more for protesting their entrapment.'

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 18 - 04:33 AM

David,
Hamas offered Israel a 10 year truce immediately after they won the 2006 election. Certain conditions had to be met, including returning to the pre-1967 borders. Israel rebuffed this approach.

Israel withdrew to the pre-67 Gaza border in 2005.

Iains,
while Israeli military snipers picked off more than 50 of them and wounded thousands more for protesting their entrapment.'

Israel said they were free to demonstrate, and only fired on those threatening the border fence.
It is disputed and I am sure there will be enquiries.
Let us not pre-judge the outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 18 - 05:06 AM

Enquiries into this bloodbath will no doubt be whitewashed. One outcome for the people of Israel is an inevitable increase in their insecurity with no prospect of peace. That's what their leaders have pitched them into. Talk of people armed with stones "threatening the border" is a massive lie. Any protester who had actually managed to get through the fence would have had absolutely nowhere to go from there and could have been taken into custody. There was never the slightest need for the IDF to open fire. Netanyahu knows that he can push things much further with Trump that he could with Obama. One fine day the ordinary people of Israel will realise what their leaders are doing to them. As things stand, nothing else can put the brakes on this brutal regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 18 - 05:36 AM

Enquiries into this bloodbath will no doubt be whitewashed

Why?

One outcome for the people of Israel is an inevitable increase in their insecurity with no prospect of peace.

I think most believe there is no prospect of peace from Hamas, and their security has been maintained at the border.

Any protester who had actually managed to get through the fence would have had absolutely nowhere to go from there and could have been taken into custody

If the fence were breached there were tens of thousands ready to swarm in.
There are farming settlements within a mile. Previous incursions by tunnels and fence breaking have targeted any Jews within reach.

There was never the slightest need for the IDF to open fire.

That is what an enquiry would have to establish.
They may find that faced with large scale incursion there was no other way to protect the fence. Let's not pre-judge the outcome.

As things stand, nothing else can put the brakes on this brutal regime.

That is an extreme view of Israel.
It is run as a Western style liberal democracy with a vociferous opposition, free media, and regular elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 18 - 06:32 AM

Inquiries into those kind of thing - I mean, mass killings carried out by agents of the state - are virtually always whitewashed initially, in every country. Northern Ireland, South Africa, Syria, the British Raj... sometimes there way be a subsequent inquiry eventually that sets the record straight.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 18 - 06:33 AM

"Israel said they were free to demonstrate, and only fired on those threatening the border fence.
It is disputed and I am sure there will be enquiries."

Hard to esplain away the deaths and injuries of children as anything other than state sanctioned murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 18 - 06:34 AM

OR.. it is run as if it is a Western style liberal democracy with a vociferous opposition, free media, and regular elections...???

Charades...???

Penetrating questions are always healthier than received truths and blissfully oblivious closed minds...

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:00 AM

PFR, it is regarded as a liberal democracy by all the other liberal democracies, and by all UK parties including Labour.
Your view of it is an unrepresentative and extreme view.

Ians,
Hard to esplain away the deaths and injuries of children as anything other than state sanctioned murder.

Enquiries will no doubt consider those deaths as well as all the others.
Let us not pre-judge the outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:07 AM

Someone let the parrot out of it's cage again...

How do you do it...??? .. seriously I'd like to know..

Do you have your stock replies ready on a document that you just copy and paste in over and over again..

Do you actually memorise them word for word and type out in full anew..

Do you have an automated key press for each line of script...???

This is a serious question...

from one 'extremist' to another...

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:11 AM

Let us hope then that there is an independent, UN sanctioned commission of enquiry with wide international participation. There are plenty of precedents for this, including Darfur, Syria etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:13 AM

PFR, if you keep making the same extreme comments, I will keep responding with the same reply.

Read Israel's side of the story here.
It also tells how supposedly desperately needed medical supplies were refused entry into Gaza by Hamas.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-defense-chief-hamas-bunch-of-cannibals-who-use-kids-as-ammunition-1.6094330

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:35 AM

I am trying to piece this together for my own understanding from both sides of the story...

In addition, I also take on board alternate perspectives and theories...

Somewhere within may be revealed some kind of 'truth'...

One sided dogma is unwelcome...

I refuse toe any official line of propaganda...

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:37 AM

There are plenty of precedents for this, including Darfur, Syria etc.

No comparison, those killed in Darfur and Syria were not terrorists attempting to breach their borders with the intention of slaughtering the local population.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:45 AM

Slavers used to call Africans apes

Hitler called Jews rats

Trump has just called immigrants animals

bobad calls Palestinians murderous terrorists

All good reasons not to treat them like human beings I suppose...

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:54 AM

Wow! Unarmed women and children are 'terrorists attempting to breach their borders with the intention of slaughtering the local population'! Who knew?

Meanwhile, the snipers with high velocity weapons who actually slaughtered those same unarmed women and children are, in the parallel universe of Bobad, precisely what? Angels of Mercy?

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 07:56 AM

Gaza (CNN)A senior member of Hamas' political bureau said during a TV interview on Wednesday that 50 people killed by Israeli soldiers during clashes in Gaza on Monday were members of Hamas.
Salah al-Bardaweel was responding to suggestions from the interviewer that Hamas, the militant group that runs Gaza, was sending other people to die in the protests.
"In the last round [of demonstrations] 62 people were martyred; 50 of them are from Hamas and 12 from the people," al-Bardaweel replied, adding, "I am telling you, these are official numbers."
Israeli officials have seized on the comment as supporting their position that the demonstrations at the fence separating Gaza from Israel are directed by Hamas.

White House blames Hamas for dozens of deaths in Gaza protests
White House blames Hamas for dozens of deaths in Gaza protests
Israel Defense Forces spokesman Jonathan Conricus tweeted a clip from the interview and wrote, "Senior Hamas official sets the record straight on who was killed in last Hamas-orchestrated riots: '50 of the 62 martyrs were Hamas.' Take his word for it. This was not peaceful protest."


------------------------------------------------------------

Gaza (CNN)A senior member of Hamas' political bureau said during a TV interview on Wednesday that 50 people killed by Israeli soldiers during clashes in Gaza on Monday were members of Hamas.
Salah al-Bardaweel was responding to suggestions from the interviewer that Hamas, the militant group that runs Gaza, was sending other people to die in the protests.
"In the last round [of demonstrations] 62 people were martyred; 50 of them are from Hamas and 12 from the people," al-Bardaweel replied, adding, "I am telling you, these are official numbers."

Israeli officials have seized on the comment as supporting their position that the demonstrations at the fence separating Gaza from Israel are directed by Hamas.

Israel Defense Forces spokesman Jonathan Conricus tweeted a clip from the interview and wrote, "Senior Hamas official sets the record straight on who was killed in last Hamas-orchestrated riots: '50 of the 62 martyrs were Hamas.' Take his word for it. This was not peaceful protest."

Israel's government said Bardawil had proven that its forces had acted appropriately in response to the mass attempt to cross the border with Gaza. Israel has repeatedly claimed that Hamas uses weekly border protests as cover to stage terror attacks.

"It was clear to Israel and now it is clear to the whole world that there was no popular protest; this was an organized mob of terrorists organized by Hamas," said Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Emmanuel Nahshon.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel had tallied similar numbers to Hamas', and "won't let those who call for our destruction to breach our borders and to threaten our communities."

In response to the uproar over his remarks, Bardawil later said in a statement that Israel was "legitimizing the killing of Palestinians just because they are Palestinians or just because they are Hamas, even if they were unarmed and defending their dignity and rights."

On Tuesday, the Israeli Army released a video that appeared to show protesters detonating several explosions near the border. It also said its forces had killed a squad of Hamas gunmen who opened fire at troops.

Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus, a military spokesman, said 14 of those killed Monday were actively involved in carrying out attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 17 May 18 - 08:06 AM

While the world freaked out over the IDF killing around 60 people of whom at least 53 were armed terrorists, in Syria on that same day 114 people were killed.

#ArabLivesMatter- but only if Israel can be blamed.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 08:18 AM

But what is a proportionate response? It doesn't require an even ratio of casualties. Intention matters, too. Yes, more Palestinians have died in these clashes, but disproportion doesn't tell the full story. It's not for a lack of Hamas' trying to kill Israelis that Israeli lives have been relatively spared. The outrage ought to be directed at Hamas for imperiling its own people, actions that in any other context would constitute a war crime. Instead, the world points an accusatory finger at Israel even though arguably no other country has ever confronted such a perverse moral dilemma and demonic endgame.

Hamas has launched thousands of rockets since 2005. Very few have caused damage, due to its abysmal aim and Israel's magical Iron Dome, an aerial defense system that has destroyed incoming missiles before they ever get a chance to land. Hamas' charter calls for the annihilation of Israel. Palestinians chanting "From the river to the sea," a phrase routinely invoked at anti-Israel rallies, amounts to a genocidal ditty that dreams not of a two-state solution but a Final Solution. For their part, Palestinians from the West Bank have been attempting to kill as many Israelis as possible through intifadas, stabbings and car-rammings. Both groups just haven't been proficient enough to offset the death toll when Israel responds to Palestinian aggression with lethal force.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/16/opinions/israel-scapegoated-on-hamas-violence-rosenbaum-opinion/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 18 - 08:34 AM

PFR,
I am trying to piece this together for my own understanding from both sides of the story...

Then you must be grateful that both sides are being put, so what exactly do you object to in my posts?

I hope you read the Haaretz piece I just linked to in which Israel's side is put.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 17 May 18 - 08:37 AM

It seem that, at least for now, calm has been restored in Gaza after Egypt's warning to Hamas leaders:

Israel’s intelligence minister said that Egypt warned Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh during a brief visit to Cairo on Sunday that Egypt “knows and has proof” that Hamas was funding the Gaza riots and sending civilians to the border fence to serve “as living ammunition, women and children instead of shells and rockets.”

Israeli Intelligence Minister Israel Katz said an Egyptian intelligence chief had warned Hamas leader Haniyeh that Egypt has “proof” the terrorist group, which is in complete political and military control in Gaza, was behind the riots and sacrificing civilians for political purposes.

The Egyptian official “made unequivocally clear to him (Haniyeh) that if this continues, Israel will respond and take far harsher steps, and Egypt will stand by and will not help,” Katz told Israel Radio in an interview.

“Haniyeh returned to Gaza, Hamas gave an order … and miraculously, this spontaneous protest by a public that could not handle the situation any more dissipated.”

Israeli Intelligence Minister: Hamas Restored Calm to Gaza after Warnings from Egypt

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 18 - 08:46 AM

"No comparison, those killed in Darfur and Syria were not terrorists attempting to breach their borders"
Thaere is not shred of evidence that the protesters were terrorists - they were not armed and to dat, not one Israeli has been injured
It is despicable to accuse the victims of illegal murder of such things
To describe demonstrators as terrorists it the act of an extremist state
Had they been there would have been attempts on the lives of those doing the killing - there is no evidence of armed resistance
This really is disgusting barrel scraping
Israel is acting no different to Assa, and Verwoerd - they shot down unarmed protesters
They are mass murderers who made no attempt to stop the demonstration or 'protect its borders' using conventional means
Please don't encourage Mudcat's Norwegian Blue lads - he is one dead parrot
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 17 May 18 - 08:55 AM

Thaere is not shred of evidence that the protesters were terrorists

Except that a Hamas official said in an interview that at least 50 of the dead were Hamas members and Saraya al-Quds, the armed wing of the Khomeinist proxy Palestinian Islamic Jihad, identified another three as its own militants.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 08:56 AM

"Thaere is not shred of evidence that the protesters were terrorists - they were not armed "

LIAR

"A senior member of Hamas' political bureau said during a TV interview on Wednesday that 50 people killed by Israeli soldiers during clashes in Gaza on Monday were members of Hamas."

Hamas is defined as a terrorist group- it's members are terrorists.

"a video that appeared to show protesters detonating several explosions near the border. It also said its forces had killed a squad of Hamas gunmen who opened fire at troops."



"there is no evidence of armed resistance"

OK, JC. I will catapult rocks at you, roll burning tires at you, start fires at the borders of your property, and try to tear down your walls, and tell everyone how I will "Eat your liver". Do anything about it, and I will demand an international court of my friends try and convict you.

Remember, YOU say that is ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:01 AM

May 17 (UPI) -- Israeli Air Force jets conducted airstrikes on Hamas targets in Gaza Strip early Thursday after shots were fired at Israeli homes from the Palestinian area.

The Israeli military said it hit four Hamas targets inside a military compound, including buildings and infrastructure. Three additional targets were hit inside a weapons production facility.

The attack was retaliation for machine gun fire that caused property damage in the Israeli town of Sderot, Israel Defense Forces said.

"The IDF considers this incident with severity and holds the terrorist organization Hamas responsible for everything that takes place within and without the Gaza Strip," the military said in a statement.

Wednesday, the IDF struck several Hamas outposts in the Gaza Strip in response to shots fired at Israeli forces.

--------------------------------------------------------------------


Oh, JC- NOW I can machine0gun your house too- totally non-violent, you said?

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:03 AM

I am puzzled as to why the people who describe Hamas as evil terrorists are perfectly happy to believe them when they make a statement as to who are and who are not members of that organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 18 - 09:04 AM

"what exactly do you object to in my posts?"

Keith - What I respect is good humoured balance and objectivity...

What I mostly object to in your posts is you...

But you already know this, as I have patiently explained it to you so many times
over the last few years...

But another basic refresher...

If you could use your obvious intelligence and knowledge in sensible mature debate,
where all involved can enjoy testing their ideas and learning from each other,
that would be very welcome, and mudcat would be a little bit better for it..

But at the core of nearly all your posts is a narrow minded, blinkered, propagandising,
accusatorial, insulting, divisive, win at any cost, objectionable, devious, attention seeking little weasel...

..and your style of persistent hyperbolic repetition is very boring...

Other mudcatters may or not agree... or have more to contribute on the subject of you..

But you did ask for what I object to...

Thanks for asking, and the opportunity to clear the air [again...]...

I know I have my quirks & faults as well - few of us BS regulars are angels...