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BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State

robomatic 14 May 18 - 07:29 PM
Donuel 14 May 18 - 07:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 May 18 - 07:50 PM
Steve Shaw 14 May 18 - 08:06 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 May 18 - 12:35 AM
Iains 15 May 18 - 04:06 AM
Steve Shaw 15 May 18 - 05:26 AM
bobad 15 May 18 - 09:14 AM
Steve Shaw 15 May 18 - 10:30 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 May 18 - 10:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 18 - 11:19 AM
Iains 15 May 18 - 02:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 18 - 04:51 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 05:41 AM
bobad 16 May 18 - 07:20 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 08:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 18 - 08:48 AM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 09:07 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 May 18 - 09:14 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 09:22 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 May 18 - 09:24 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 09:31 AM
David Carter (UK) 16 May 18 - 09:36 AM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 09:36 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 09:39 AM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 09:43 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 09:49 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 09:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 May 18 - 09:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 May 18 - 10:43 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 May 18 - 11:54 AM
Joe Offer 16 May 18 - 12:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 18 - 12:13 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 12:14 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 12:20 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 12:21 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 12:25 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 May 18 - 12:30 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 12:43 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 12:51 PM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 01:00 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 01:03 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 01:06 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 01:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 18 - 01:23 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 18 - 01:25 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 18 - 01:26 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 May 18 - 01:47 PM
Jim Carroll 16 May 18 - 02:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 May 18 - 02:37 PM

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Subject: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: robomatic
Date: 14 May 18 - 07:29 PM

Yeah, I went there.


Or rather, I haven't actually been there, but I pledge to go there before I get as old as she is now, which is 70.

And yes, I mean Israel, a nation which was founded as idealistically as any other on earth, and has had its many feet of clay regularly laundered ever since.

I realize that things aren't optimal right now, and there are some threads devoted to tearing her down, but there are positive things to be said about a country so incredibly diverse and with regular political elections where there are multiple parties.

It would be nice if this thread could be on the more positive side, but I realize that in giving it birth I am also giving it to the rest of you. Try to at least be thoughtful and informative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Donuel
Date: 14 May 18 - 07:32 PM

The USA is 70 years and counting behind Israel, as far as having a female President.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish Sta
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 18 - 07:50 PM

South Africa too had regular elections, with multiple parties; but the vote was limited to white people. However black people were still allowed to live in the country.

Israel has regular elections with multiple parties. Non Jews living in the country can vote, including those Arabs still living there - but most natives of the country were displaced at the time of Israel's foundation, and have been denied their legal right to return.

Which is the more democratic system?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 18 - 08:06 PM

You forgot to mention the dreadful inequality, racially-motivated, that exists in Israel between Jews and non-Jews. Israel will go on forever, despite Hamas, etc., and, after seventy years, that's how it should be. But the horrible divide will remain as long as Israel gets the unconditional support of the United States, no matter how bad their behaviour. Today, in the face of over fifty slaughtered Palestinians, Trump didn't even call for restraint. Gird your loins. There's trouble ahead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 May 18 - 12:35 AM

So there's Eurovision Israel [hooray...]
and right wing Govt/military regime Israel [boo...]

Hard to reconcile the two...

It must be heartbreaking for young liberal minded arts, music, culturally creative Israelis
wanting to coexist & collaborate peacefully with other cultures...

.. whilst coping with brainwashing from fanatical old zealots and military conscription...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 18 - 04:06 AM

Israel the progressive(extreme right wing)country planning to deport many thousands of Africans About time Uncle Sam's umbrella was taken away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 18 - 05:26 AM

No chance. The only hope, and it didn't work last time, is that a moderate-minded President in the White House will have the cojones to stand up to the ultra-powerful and unelected pro-Israel lobby.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 18 - 09:14 AM

Congratulation Israel for your endurance and accomplishments over the past seventy years in your historic homeland. You have established yourself as a model state with equal rights for all your citizens regardless of ethnicity or religion, the envy of many countries in the world. May you long continue to be the beacon of hope for many. ?azak ve-ema?!


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 18 - 10:30 AM

You forgot to invite your model state to keep on with the killing. Perhaps they can use some of that US military money to buy some more cluster munitions or white phosphorus or invest in some more bulldozers, and those sniper rifles always come in handy in case someone throws stones at you.


Over and out. Fester by yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 May 18 - 10:58 AM

Well... Bruce got the last word in the other thread... hope he calms down a bit...

..now back to the 70th birthday celebrations...

But the party is getting a bit too rowdy and out of order...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 18 - 11:19 AM

Steve,
the ultra-powerful and unelected pro-Israel lobby.

What is the nature and source of their great power?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 18 - 02:33 PM

This:
http://www.viewzone.com/dualcitizen.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:51 AM

Viewzone. "Conspiracies, lost history and mysteries as well as humor and facts... we tell it like it is."

They also say that no advertiser would touch that article Iains.
It is the old trope that Jews have infiltrated governments to corrupt and subvert policy to their own agenda.

I hope that is not Steve's view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:41 AM

To repeat myself for the millionth time, I don't refer to a Jewish lobby. It's a pro-Israel lobby and it contains many people who are not Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 18 - 07:20 AM

It is interesting to note that the Arab press is beginning to take notice of and to applaud Israel's achievements.

For instance, the former governor of Egypt's Al-Sharqiya province Reda Abd Al-Salam wrote that Israeli superiority was due to the country's continuous investment in education, health and science and technology, as well as Israel's building a democracy.

The Arab and Muslim peoples live under regimes that for decades have engaged not in developing their peoples and establishing themselves in economy, society, science, and democracy but in establishing their [own] rule... During this time, those we called 'the sons of apes and pigs' engaged in real building. They focused on education, health, economy, and technology, and of course on democratic process," a MEMRI translation of the article read.

Abd Al-Salam further emphasized that Israel's progress was not at all the result of aid, but of hard work. "Don't say that [this is because] the US supports Israel, because over the past decades Egypt has received tremendous support, in billions of dollars, from its Arab brothers and also from the international institutions for developing education, roads, and the like. Where has [this money] gone and whose pockets [does it line]?


More examples from the Arab press HERE


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 08:31 AM

Bobad
From a link in The Jerusalem Post

The Arab League is planning to hold an emergency meeting on Tuesday at the level of permanent representatives to discuss “the crimes of the occupation against the Palestinian people,” the assistant secretary-general for Palestinian affairs, Said Abu Ali, told official Palestinian news agency Wafa.
He added that the league is closely following developments after the “Israeli massacre against peaceful civilians” on the Gaza border.
Abu Ali called on the international community to put an immediate halt to “the Israeli crimes” and to provide protection to the Palestinian people.

EDUCATION
EDUCATION
EDUCATION
EDUCATION
EDUCATION 2016
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 18 - 08:48 AM

Steve,
It's a pro-Israel lobby and it contains many people who are not Jews.

...but overwhelmingly Jews. How do they exert their supposed influence on government Steve?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:07 AM

JC,

According to Yasser Arafat, the former and late leader of the PLO, Jordan killed about 10,000 Palestinians during the Black September conflict fought in Jordan between the Jordanian Armed Forces, under the leadership of King Hussein, and the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), under the leadership of Yasser Arafat.

The conflict, which was started by the Palestinians, lasted primarily between 16th and 27th September 1970.

This being so, Jordan has actually killed more Palestinians in a single conflict than Israel ever has in any of the various conflicts the Palestinians have also started against Israel.

However, the world has of course never acknowledged this not entirely irrelevant fact, and, instead, continues to bash Israel simply for exercising her sovereign right to defend her citizens against the same Palestinian terrorist threat Jordan also faced once upon a time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:14 AM

"...but overwhelmingly Jews. How do they exert their supposed influence on government Steve?"


oooh I know...I know.. The answer to that one is soooo easy...

Space Aliens...

they are all Space Aliens adopting human guise and replacing all our politicians and world leaders
with tiny Space Aliens in fully functioning human being suits
that look just like all the people they replaced....

Now that's what I call a conspiracy for you to get all huffy and accusational about...!!!
go on I dare you... call me it..

I know you're dying to...


Pillock - you have been warned so many times before about going down this road
with your bag of nasty tricks...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:22 AM

So?
What has that to do with the present slaughter taking place at this moment
Many of the dead, particularly the eight children killed so far, wouldn't have been born in 1970
God alone knows how many of the 2,500 wounded ere children - the killers didn't ask for their birth certificates before they cut them down
What's your point?
Maybe past killings by however make it acceptable to mow down unarmed demonstrators in your part of the world ?
In mine, all such killings are evil, no matter what the numbers
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:24 AM

From: Donuel - PM
Date: 14 May 18 - 07:32 PM
The USA is 70 years and counting behind Israel, as far as having a female President.


Did I miss something? Was David Ben-Gurion a female?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:31 AM

By the way
"16th and 27th September 1970."
This being so, Jordan has actually killed more Palestinians in a single conflict than Israel ever has in any of the various conflicts the Palestinians have also started against Israel.
Israel facilitated the massacre of up to 3,500 unarmed refugees in less than three days over a decade later
That has to be worth some sort of medal in your Slaughter Olympics
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:36 AM

John Bolton is on that list. Its pretty clear how he exerts his influence. He is as far as I know not a Jew, just a right wing warmonger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:36 AM

JC,


Hamas isn’t merely a terrorist organization committed to murdering Jews, it’s a terrorist organization that urges its own people to become cannon fodder as a means of appealing to Western journalists and intellectuals. The higher the death toll, the happier Hamas will be. And few things have more of a detrimental effect on the Palestinian cause than the media’s asymmetrical coverage of this conflict with the Jews.

Until Palestinians shed their hatred, turn from the Israeli fences, and march towards their own governments, they will remain pawns and saps in a decades-long suicide mission. That’s because no amount of bad press about Israel’s efforts to stop violence coming from Gaza will impel that nation to create a terror state on its borders. It’s untenable, not to mention immoral. We would never contemplate such a thing. Nor would any rational country.

Despite what you’ve heard, the 35,000 Palestinian “demonstrators” massed along the security fence between Israel and Gaza — the ones throwing firebombs and other explosives, burning tires, chucking rocks (if you think these are aren’t deadly, you should see one landing; I have), and those attempting to light fires to burn crops and vegetation — are only ostensibly protesting the United States moving its embassy to Israel’s capital. I know this because Hamas doesn’t accept a U.S. embassy anywhere in Israel, as it doesn’t recognize Israel at all.

Hamas has openly asserted that it’s attempting to create incursions into Israel, and that has absolutely nothing to do with East or West or North or South Jerusalem. For Palestinians this is about the 70th anniversary of Israel — or, as they see it, Nakba. It’s about an ongoing historic effort — an intermittently theocratic or nationalistic effort, depending on the trends — to play victim.

So while it might grate against the sensibilities and preconceived notions of those covering the mess, Hamas is the oppressor in this situation. And while rioters might think they’re fighting a “war,” Israel is merely trying to stop a mob from breaching a fence. To frame this as a battle between occupier and occupied is deeply simplistic. Gaza is unoccupied territory. It is only after a Hamas coup d’etat that dispatched the opposition political party of Fatah led by Mahmoud Abbas, the internationally recognized leader of the Palestinians, that both Israel and Egypt imposed a blockade on Gaza. Like Israel, Egypt was rightly worried about the increase of Iranian influence and terrorism.

Although there is occasionally talk of a unity government with Hamas, Fatah leader Abbas still threatened Gaza with more blockades. Now, if Hamas can’t even adhere to agreements with the supposed moderates of the Palestinian government, what is Israel expected to do?

Hamas might regularly crush political dissent, torture opponents, and limit every freedom imaginable, but let’s not forget that it’s also plagued by corruption. Since Israel conferred semi-autonomy on Gaza, Hamas has created one of the highest unemployment rates in the world, at more than 40 percent. The government siphons off hundreds of millions in international aid it should be using to promote economic growth and for basic necessities for the people, to fund the making and use of thousands of rockets and mortars (rendered ineffective by the Iron Dome; and the reason Hamas has not turned to riots), concrete-bolstered tunnels that shuffle terrorists into Israel, and other unnecessary terror activity.

One of those activists is ginning up mobs to rush a fence separating Gaza and Israel. At one gathering near Gaza City, The Washington Post reported, Hamas organizers encouraged rioters to push through the fence, “telling them Israeli soldiers were fleeing their positions, even as they were reinforcing them.” The purpose, of course, was to create casualties.

On the other hand, Israel dropped leaflets urging Palestinians to stay away from the fence. “Save your lives and work on building your futures,” the papers read. Israelis also fired warning shots at people as they began breaching the fence. Snipers only fired real shots at those who had already crossed the first fence despite warnings and were trying to breach the main security fence.

Using civilians as human shields and canon fodder, and the resulting death tolls as propaganda, has been a tool for Palestinian groups for more than half a century. In 2015, the United Nations was forced to admit that Hamas was storing explosives in at least three UN schools (where displaced people as well as children were housed) that Israel targeted during the mini-war of 2014. Using international aid buildings as staging grounds for terrorism is part of Yasser Arafat’s legacy.

Of course Israel makes mistakes. Many of them. But what is Israel supposed to do when a mob of violent rioters march towards them? Should it shut down the IDF and allow Hamas to overtake their military positions? Should it tear down the fences and allow a million Gazans, propagandized over a generation by violent regimes and steeped in virulent anti-Semitism, to walk into Israel proper?

Should they give full autonomy to Hamas and allow it to create a mini Iran right on its border? Should Jews pick up and leave Jerusalem? Even if Israel wanted to make a deal, Hamas makes no genuine demands, much less offers any concessions. It wants to provoke death. They want to become the victim. Sadly for the Palestinian people, they get plenty of help creating that fiction.

*******************************************************
ANSWER THE QUESTION:

"called for peace from both sides,"

For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose).(- RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;JC's, Acme's, and Mr Shaw's preference)

For the Palestinians, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. (- RESULT - NOBODY HURT ;My preference)

So WHICH side has control of "peace"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:39 AM

Troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:43 AM

Mr Shaw,

Good to see you finally signing your posts accurately.

Just looking at facts here. Take YOUR unsupported beliefs to some other thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:49 AM

Every time you post that disgusting sentence you are trolling. Your despicable behaviour is one hundred percent deliberate. Now stop being so bloody stupid and get a life, will you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:55 AM

"Hamas isn’t merely a terrorist organization committed to murdering Jews, i"
Again - so ?
Where does the slaughter of unarmed demonstrators come in all this
Israel has recently celebrated an act of terrorism of its own
You have been answered dozens of times - how do you think unarmed demonstrators intend to "kill all Jews" - surround them and wait for them to die of old age!!!!
So far the score is Palestinians - over one hundred dead two-thousand wounded -
Israelis - none
Why don't you just say that you believe that all demonstrations should be forbidden on the pain of death
That appears to be what you believ
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:58 AM

Name calling side, bringing arguments from other threads and other related shenanigans could well get this thread closed too. Please don't do it if you want the thread to remain a forum for sensible discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 18 - 10:43 AM

'side' was part of an earlier C&P! Sorry :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 18 - 11:54 AM

Just to brush up on Geography [ I failed the O level twice in 1975 - so gave up ]

I googled map size comparison sites...

Israel is tiny, barely bigger than Wales...!!!

Gaza Strip could get lost in the toe end of Cornwall...!!!!!

To think such an insignificantly small area of the planet could potentially lead to causing World War 3...!!!???


..and I thought North Korea was a pint sized trouble maker...!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:02 PM

All these accusations of trolling don't add anything to the thread, and make it boring to the rest of us. You people aren't trolls. You're just stubborn old gits who won't budge an inch from your out-of-balance opinions on one side or the other of the issue. I think it's a case of sour testosterone....
Nothing worse than listening to a bunch of old men bickering.
-Joe Offer, also an old man-


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:13 PM

PFR,
Pillock - you have been warned so many times before about going down this road
with your bag of nasty tricks...


More name calling, and I have never been so warned.
Just personal stuff and nothing on the subject as usual PFR.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:14 PM

To Joe Offer: your friend has now posted this sentence five or six times:

RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;JC's, Acme's, and Mr Shaw's preference)

I for one want to see no dead Jews or Palestinians, and I can rock-solid assure you that neither do Jim and Maggie. To type that once is disgusting. To repeat it again and again is provocative, insulting and looking for a reaction (yes I'm guilty of providing one). If you can't see that as trolling, well I don't know what planet you're on. You told us that he's your friend. Friends can have a good influence, can't they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:20 PM

Mr. Shaw,

Since YOU call for Israel to stop defending itself, and make NO demand on the Gazans to stop, I have no choice but to assume the result you want is dead Jews and Palestinians.

i ASKED A QUESTION, WHICH YOU DID NOT ANSWER:

Simple logic, no belief here at all- just the science ( You want something to occur, you get the consequences of that action ( or inaction) i KNOW WHICH ANSWER i WOULD WISH- tell ME WHAT you WOULD HAVE HAPPEN, OF THE TWO CASES. Tell me which side has control of the peace.


*******************************************************
ANSWER THE QUESTION:

"called for peace from both sides,"

For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose).(- RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;)

For the Palestinians, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. (- RESULT - NOBODY HURT ;My preference)

So WHICH side has control of "peace"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:21 PM

As long as we're clear that the pint-sized trouble-maker is Israel. Unfortunately, it has an elephant-sized backer in the West.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:25 PM

"As long as we're clear that the pint-sized trouble-maker is Israel"

This sounds like a religious belief to me- not a fact in sight to support your belief that Israel is responsible for the actions of Palestinians.


So feel free to have that belief- but don't expect others to let you teach it to any children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:30 PM

"I have never been so warned."

oh yes you have...

I'll do it again to refresh your memory...

Stop implying good folks you don't like or who disagree with you are antisemetics...

Stop trying to goad good folks into a position where you can exploit disputed definitions in order to call them antisemetics

Whenever I see you doing it I will remind you not to...

What do you think gives you of all people the right and power to call any other person such a nasty thing...?????

Clear now...???

Yes you are right, it is wrong to call you a pillock - it's not harsh enough...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:43 PM

Well done Bruce for removing the names. You should never have typed that sentence in the first place and you should have removed it first time. Now as I'm convinced that you have something wrong with you, I'm going to resume having nothing to do with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:51 PM

Sorry, Steve.

As I said, the LOGICAL , scientific assumption is that you , having advocated a specific course of action, you are accepting the consequences of that action.

If YOU specify that Israel should stop reacting to the Palestinians, and say nothing about the Palestinians stopping their activities, you are calling for the killing of Jews and Palestinians.

So the sentence makes perfect, LOGICAL sense. You keep on about logic, not belief- but your expressed BELIEF that Israel is to blame for the Palestinian actions tells us you are a hypocrite as well.

NOW, will you answer the question?

"called for peace from both sides,"

For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose).(- RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;)

For the Palestinians, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. (- RESULT - NOBODY HURT ;My preference)

So WHICH side has control of "peace"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:00 PM

"I for one want to see no dead Jews or Palestinians, and I can rock-solid assure you that neither do Jim and Maggie."
This needs to be carved in stone on this forum
The accusation is no more than a replacement for a lack of response - a thread-closer if anything is.
It's about time these peopple moved away from the term "Jews" anyway - they are the only ones who use it
Perhaps the golden rule should be:
It is antisemitic to - "Hold Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."

Joe
Whether you are one of us or not, your statement is extremely ageist
Taking a humanist stance on what is happening has nothing to do with how old you are (hopefully)
While this killing continues some of us will continue to condemn it.
If you consider that to be "stubborn" then you are working from a different dictionary than mine
It's all very well tyying to be all things to all men (and women but....

One of the worst features (just) of this whole affair has been the cowardly silence of our media and Governments
This was dealt with excellently in the letters page of the Irish Times where (apart from one letter) the response has been overwhelmingly a sympathy for the Palestinian cause

Sir, - The killing of over 50 people in Gaza, including chil¬dren, and the maiming of thou¬sands more by the Israeli mili¬tary has prompted The Irish Times to call on global and re¬gional powers to calm tensions in the hope that a two-state solution can be achieved post-Trump. Although you state that in doing so they should use whatever tools are at their disposal, you noticeably fail to identify these.
One measure clearly sug¬gests itself from the grotesque contrast you rightly note be¬tween murderous violence in Palestine and full diplomatic recognition in Jerusalem. To avoid pariah status is central to the Israeli mission and explains the recent hysterical attempts in Britain and elsewhere to equate criticism of Israel with racism. Although it clearly en¬gages in war crimes, including the slaughter of unarmed civil¬ians, it manages to be treated as an equal among nations.
The principal tool at the dis¬posal of all of us, individuals and, most importantly our gov¬ernments is implementation of the boycott of Israel that Pales¬tinian civic society groups have been calling for since 2004. Is¬rael is not a normal state as this week’s events yet again demon¬strate. Rather, they show that it is well past rime we engage in se¬rious discussion about its cultur¬al, diplomatic and economic iso¬lation. -Yours, etc,
Patrick O’hagan, Newcastle. Co Down.

Thart was a response to the paper's leader article

ISRAEL-PALESTINE THE WORLD MUST NOT LOOK AWAY
The contrast was grotesque. As Israeli and American dignitaries stood smiling on a
platform in Jerusalem, hailing the trans¬fer of the US embassy to the city as a step towards peace, dozens of Palestinians were being gunned down by Israeli snipers at the fortified fence that keeps them in Gaza.
Israeli forces shot and killed more than 50 Palstinians during protests at the Gaza border yes- jterday. Health officials said 1200 other Palestinians were wounded. Those lost lives can be added to the toll of more than 40 other Palestinians who have been killed by Israeli forces at the same location over the past six weeks. The UN and the EU have called for independent inquiries into the bloodshed, but Israel has refused.
The two events yesterday - the inauguration of the embassy and the Gaza protests - took place on the 70 th anniversary of the creation of the state of Israel, and a day before Palestinians commemorate 70 years since the Nakba, or catastrophe - the mass displacement of 750, 000 Palestinians, who left or were forcibly evicted from their homes in what is now Israel in 1948.
As the day illustrated in horrific fashion, the anniversaries fall at a time of acute tensions and almost total political stasis. The despondency pre¬dates Donald Trump’s rise to power, but his reckless decisions in the Middle East-to call them policies implies a level of strategic thinking they scarcely warrant - have made the situation more dangerous while creating new problems that will remain to be dealt with long after his disgraceful presidency comes to an end.
His decision to recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s capital delighted many Israelis and US evangeli¬cals, but it has dashed any remaining hope that a peace process can be initated at least for the dura¬tion of his term in office. Instead of seeking to assuage Palestinians by offering them a commensurate gesture, such as a promise that East Jerusalem will become capital of a future Palestinian state. Trump sought to punish them by withholding money from the United Nations relief agency for Palestinian refugees.
The longer the current hiatus continues, the more difficult it becomes to resolve the conflict. And the more dire life becomes for Palestinians. That is because the humanitarian situation in Gaza grows more alarming by the week, Israeli politics are moving to the right, illegal settlement-building continues apace, intra-Palestinian reconciliation has stalled and Hamas refuses to re¬nounce violence. The world cannot turn away,, however. In the absence of US leadership, an even greater onus falls on other global and region¬al powers - not only to work to calm tensions but to use whatever tools are at their disposal to en¬sure that by the time a new peace process can be¬gin in the post-Trump era, the conditions on the ground still allow for two viable states side by side.

Theresa May has now called for an enquiry into the killings and the UN has called a special session to discuss the issue
Hopefully we'll begin to see a sea change
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:03 PM

FACTS for Mr. Shaw:

"No matter how often Hamas tells us that many rioters on Israel-Gaza border are armed, most of the media keeps referring to them as “protesters” and “demonstrators.” No matter how often Hamas acknowledges that these rioters are part of a broader “war,” the media simply won’t report it as such. And no matter how often Palestinian rioters tell reporters they want to “kill” and “burn” Jews inside Israel, left-wing journalists and pundits still frame Israel as the aggressor.

Today, one senior Hamas official bragged that around 50 to 58 of those killed by the IDF at the Israel/Gaza border “were members of Hamas.” The terrorist group had already boasted that some of those killed in were members of its armed wing. At least 24 of those killed during the riots have been identified as Hamas members by Israel — 11 of them member of the internal security apparatus. All of this is an amazing coincidence considering how the media has been portraying the situation as a massacre of innocent civilians and children.

It’s almost certain that the IDF, which has a moral responsibility to stop tens of thousands of rioters from crossing their border and attacking its citizens, used the Hamas-instigated riots to pick off members of the terrorist organization. Hamas, of course, boasts about these deaths. Which isn’t to say they don’t also lie about civilian causalities. If you’re going to embed armed commandos with civilian rioters, propagandize them, pay them, and send them towards military installations, you must hope they will die. But the Western defenders of Hamas — either fellow travelers or those who don’t understand the dynamics of the Middle East – won’t tell you that martyrdom is the point."

more at http://thefederalist.com/2018/05/16/the-media-coverage-of-the-israeli-palestinian-clash-is-built-on-myths/

"But just because Hamas is willing to sacrifice their lives (and the lives of their citizens), doesn’t mean they aren‘t the instigators or the guilty party. There’s an obsession in the media about a disproportionate number of Palestinians who die in these conflicts. Some can’t escape the hackneyed oppressor-oppressed template. Others allow their obsession with Donald Trump to their cloud their morals. Bu the fact is that if Hamas dropped its claim on Israel proper, and stopped using every opening provided to them to instigate violence, not a single person would ever have to die again in this war."


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:06 PM

JC, just a reminder:


"Stop implying good folks you don't like or who disagree with you are antisemetics...

Stop trying to goad good folks into a position where you can exploit disputed definitions in order to call them antisemetics

What do you think gives you of all people the right and power to call any other person such a nasty thing...?????"


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:17 PM

One of several letters in today's Guardian.

"We, Israelis who wish our country to be safe and just, are appalled and horrified by the massive killing of unarmed Palestinian demonstrators in Gaza (Reports, 15 May). None of the demonstrators posed any direct danger to the state of Israel or to its citizens. The killing of over 50 demonstrators and the thousands more wounded are reminiscent of the Sharpeville Massacre in 1960 in South Africa. The world acted then. We call upon decent members of the international community to act by demanding that those who commanded such shootings be investigated and tried.

The current leaders of the Israeli government are responsible for the criminal policy of shooting at unarmed demonstrators. The world must intervene to stop the ongoing killing."

Avraham Burg Former speaker of the Knesset and chairman of the Jewish Agency Prof Nurit Peled Elhanan 2001 co-laureate of the Sakharov prize Prof David Harel Vice-president of the Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities Prof Yehoshua Kolodny Recipient of the 2010 Israel prize Alex Levac Photographer and recipient of the 2005 Israel prize Prof Judd Ne’eman Director and recipient of the 2009 Israel prize Prof Zeev Sternhell Historian and recipient of the 2008 Israel prize Prof David Shulman Recipient of the 2016 Israel prize David Tartakover Artist and recipient of the 2002 Israel prize

Just a bunch of self-hating Jews, I suppose...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:23 PM

PFR, another purely personal attack with nothing said on the actual subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:25 PM

Two more.

"Since 30 March, each week has seen killings of largely unarmed protesters by Israeli snipers. The position has been aggravated by the provocation of the opening of a new US embassy in Jerusalem, hammering another nail into the coffin of a moribund peace process.

The Independent Jewish Voices steering group wishes to express our horror at the flagrant disregard for the human rights of the Palestinians and the norms of international law, and our support for those many thousands who have been demonstrating their opposition around the world. We call upon the UK government to condemn the actions of the Israeli authorities, to demand an independent inquiry into the use of force on the Gaza border, to make clear that the UK embassy will remain in Tel Aviv, and to redouble all diplomatic efforts to bring the occupation to an end."

Dr Anthony Isaacs, Dr Vivienne Jackson, Dr Katy Fox-Hodess, Dr Tamar Steinitz, Professor Jacqueline Rose, Ann Jungman, Merav Pinchassoff, Professor Adam Fagan, Professor Francesa Klug
Independent Jewish Voices steering group


"In the face of the bloodshed in Gaza, too many in the west have been quick to minimise or even excuse the state-sanctioned murder of unarmed protesters. The White House labelled the innocent lives lost at the hands of Israeli troops as “part of the problem”, as it celebrated its embassy move. The UK government and Labour Friends of Israel blamed the unarmed Palestinian people for daring to protest against their repression and raised the spectre of Hamas.

Greens will continue to support the ideals of freedom, equality and respect for international law. And that includes supporting Palestinian people marking the Nakba by protesting against their illegal oppressors. We support a two-state solution but, with Netanyahu being appeased by the west at every turn, this has never seemed so far away."

Keith Taylor MEP
Green party, South East England


The Guardian also printed two letters in support of Israel. They are nonsensical and in denial. Find 'em for yourselves if you can be arsed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:26 PM

So, Mr Shaw, YOUR answer to the question??

"called for peace from both sides,"

For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews ( the stated purpose).(- RESULT: DEAD JEWS AND PALESTINIANS ;)
"No matter how often Hamas tells us that many rioters on Israel-Gaza border are armed, most of the media keeps referring to them as “protesters” and “demonstrators.” No matter how often Hamas acknowledges that these rioters are part of a broader “war,” the media simply won’t report it as such. And no matter how often Palestinian rioters tell reporters they want to “kill” and “burn” Jews inside Israel, left-wing journalists and pundits still frame Israel as the aggressor."

For the Palestinians, this would entail keeping back from the border and NOT attacking the Israeli troops, or throwing rocks, grenades, burning tires, et al. (- RESULT - NOBODY HURT ;My preference)
"But the fact is that if Hamas dropped its claim on Israel proper, and stopped using every opening provided to them to instigate violence, not a single person would ever have to die again in this war."


So WHICH side has control of "peace"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:47 PM

Bruce - in a positive spirit of reconciliation, I'll let you quote that paragraph of mine - no problems...

Now can we all just agree - mudcatters stop calling other mudcatters antisemetics... please...


imho, the only folks who have any genuine right to use that accusation are Jews...

And if this may be getting a bit contentious...

Except if any members & supporters of the Israeli govt/military regime exploit that accusation improperly
in cynical attempt to shut up and shut down justifiable criticism of their ideology and policies...

This particularly applies to right wing evangelical Christians
who are using Jews and Israel as a political football for their own highly dubious objectives...

I personally, will never resort to accusing anyone of antisemetism,
unless it is a blatantly obvious expression of hatred for jews..!!!.

Well.. that's just what a quarter blood jew in south west England feels...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:35 PM

"For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews "
You and are the only ones on this forum who attempts to involve the Jewish people - everybody else refers to "The Israelis"
Every time you do so you paint another target on another innocent Jew
You accuse us of being antisemitic, but it is you who constantly breaks the European guidlines and blames the Jews for Israel's terror
Israel has gone one step further in describing Jews who disapprove of their behaviour as "non-Jews" or "self-hating Jews"
This behaviour is tantamount so saying "Give up towel-heads or the Jew gets it" - in the best traditions of gangster films
I suppose it's too much to ask the mods who take time out to close threads to ask the perpetrator to refrain from antisemitic language
Some time in the not to distant future the Israelis and Palestinians are going to have to share the one land - surely, after former Yugoslavia, Myanmar and Rwanda, the world is not going to accept another ethnic cleansing
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy 70th Birthday to the Jewish State
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:37 PM

For the Israelis, this would mean letting the demonstrators overrun the border and kill all the Jews (the stated purpose)

That is totally at odds with what has been repeatedly stated by organisers, and many ordinary protesters. They are asserting their moral right to return to the country from which they have been exiled all their lives, and share it with all those who live there.

More to the point, in weeks of protest, as hundreds have been killed and thousands injured, I haven't seen a single case of an Israeli soldier being killed, or even injured by the action no of a protester.
..................
It strikes me that Israelis should recognise that, when Palestinians describe the events of 1948, in which they were exiled, as "The Naqba", "The Disaster", they should see that term as applying to themselves as well. The circumstances in which the State of Israel was established was hardly less of a disaster for the Israelis, and indeed for Jews in general, than it was for Palestinians.


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