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Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert

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GUEST,Jeremy Main 16 May 18 - 05:51 AM
Howard Jones 16 May 18 - 08:46 AM
GUEST 16 May 18 - 09:39 AM
The Singing Organ Grinder 16 May 18 - 10:19 AM
FreddyHeadey 16 May 18 - 10:46 AM
Iains 16 May 18 - 11:05 AM
FreddyHeadey 16 May 18 - 12:30 PM
Bonzo3legs 16 May 18 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,Morris-ey 16 May 18 - 01:48 PM
David Carter (UK) 16 May 18 - 01:57 PM
Bonzo3legs 16 May 18 - 01:58 PM
David Carter (UK) 16 May 18 - 01:58 PM
David Carter (UK) 16 May 18 - 02:26 PM
Bonzo3legs 16 May 18 - 03:38 PM
GUEST 16 May 18 - 03:47 PM
keberoxu 16 May 18 - 04:14 PM
David Carter (UK) 16 May 18 - 04:25 PM
Richard Mellish 16 May 18 - 04:29 PM
GUEST,Roger Dunant 16 May 18 - 04:32 PM
Iains 17 May 18 - 03:32 AM
Howard Jones 17 May 18 - 04:48 AM
Mr Red 17 May 18 - 04:56 AM
Roger the Skiffler 17 May 18 - 05:28 AM
Roger the Skiffler 17 May 18 - 05:29 AM
Iains 17 May 18 - 06:05 AM
OldNicKilby 17 May 18 - 06:35 AM
FreddyHeadey 18 May 18 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,Some bloke 20 May 18 - 09:29 AM
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Subject: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: GUEST,Jeremy Main
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:51 AM

I'm posting this in my real name, because it's for the record.

The first thing to say is that I do apologise in advance for having to take a no-nonsense, no-opinions-welcome approach to the subject. What follows is as hard fact as I can find at this point.

Some of you may recall the right duffing-up I suffered four years ago when I first raised the headache of HS2 in Camden, which made me withdraw from the folk scene almost completely. However, because I care deeply for the heritage and people, now that what I said then is starting to happen, hard and real, then I have a moral duty to blow a whistle.

Firstly, what gives? The Railroad's about to run through the middle of the House, is the musical answer - or more accurately, two tunnels for high-speed trains are about to be dug so close to the foundations as to risk creating a sinkhole under the building. I emphasise is the word RISK.
What evidence do I have? Close consultation with the railway engineers, both during the public consultation phase and now, with the construction starting. It's in the HS2 plans. More importantly, now that it's happening, go look and see for yourselves. With Cecil Sharp House to your rear, walk eastwards down Glouceter Avenue, to the end of the road, cross over past the York and Albany pub, and then walk down Park Village East. Observe the nice bright new shiny noise and vibration meters they stuck on the lampposts on Monday. Watch Murphy demolish the carriage sheds to your left. There's a considerable element of Vogon behaviour in how HS2 are carrying on, because it's a big project and they rather hoped people would show some initiative. I did - but Katy Spicer refused to listen.

What is happening is that the first phase of HS2 is starting, for hard and for real. Running on the west side of the existing Euston mainline cutting (ie Cecil Sharp House's side), the tracks from the 11 platforms of the new station will narrow down to the main-line width of four tracks, running up through the Chilterns to somewhere West of Birmingham. That happens between roughly the Hampstead Road Bridge and the York and Albany, where the line goes underground into a tunnel, diving down quite steeply under the canal, before bending around under Primrose Hill - where it was originally intended to meet a spur from the North London Line, connecting to HS1 at St Pancras - before surfacing at Old Oak Common and making its merry mayhem north.

What they will be digging are two tunnels, each 50' in diameter, passing about 50' under the Regents Canal - which is only about 4' deep. I'm going to use the trackbed as the reference point for my calculations. Horizontally, two tunnels each 50' in diameter come to 100'. However, they also have space between them and the cutting wall, and between themselves, so we're now up to around 150'. Cecil Sharp House is about 110' from the cutting wall. Every one's a coconut. Vertically, I'm going to use the trackbed at rail level as my zero. In the tunnel, the trackbed's about 10' above the bottom of the floor, si=o there's about 40' overhead to the roof of the tunnel. The steepest incline a train can handle is about 1 in 100. There's about a kilometer between the Hampstead Road and Parkway bridges, so the trackbed can drop by another 30' or so, the trackbed's about 50' down, the roof 10' under Parkway. Between there and Cecil Sharp House, it'll from another meter or so, but from that, you have to subtract the way the downstairs halls are set into the ground and the way they build a tunnel - they rip the earth out, and build it in the void they've dug, back-filling with cement. That damned tunnel passes so close to the foundations it might even touch them, and the soil holding the foundations in place will be shaken to buggery. It'll be exactly like having a sinkhole under te place.

OK, so that's the 3 dimensions settled. The one remaining one is time. When they built the Thames Sewer Tunnel recently, it took six weeks between clearing the site for the construction of the cutting head and it going operational. The site here is already cleared, just behind the URL Building on Hampstead Road, the carriage sheds will be cleared in a fortnight, and the "culvert" can be constructed in a couple of weeks. If this is a Yellow Alert, the Amber Alert is when they replace the Hampstead Road and Mornington bridges, which is a weekend job, and remove the roadway in Park Village East, the Red is when they pour the slab the cutting head meshes into.

Obviously, I warnerd Katy Spicer four years ago, in writing, and posted it here. She did nothing - not even to protect the financial interests of the EFDSS. I've put what I could in place (mentions in Hansard, for example), and now that action is impending, I wrote to her again a couple of weeks ago. She was all bleat and apologies, but no practical action like finding out herself or making a hard plan - and that's why I'm putting this in writing. It's on the EFDSS Board Meeting for June, and she's meeting up with the Residents Action Committee. As at this point, it's about five weeks before the at-risk period starts. When it actually happens after that is impossible to say: the Vogon in charge of community liaison at first told me two years, but I was correct to the hour when this project was going to hit the ground, and so I raised one eyebrow and told him the six weeks was hot info. Seeing he was rumbled, he reluctantly agreed: the pessimistic side was six weeks, a week ago. I havent't had a look at the URL backyard yet. But my observation to you is: a pessimist can only be happily surprised, an optimist bitterly disappointed. Which would you rather be? HAve such precautions as are objective in place now, or which you had them ready when you need them?

I do have a rescue plan for the RVWML if they can be bothered to speak to me, but at this exact point I'm gwetting the same from the EFDSS as I had four years ago, shoot the messenger, don't face the problem. In those four years they have, quite predictably, done nothing. And they're still doing nothing in the few weeks they have left: that Board briefing should have been held four years ago. The consequences for the Society itself could be equally devastating.

Me? I trained as an officer with the Army's tunnellers, I'm the son of the man who led the project designing the trains forty years ago, and I sang with the House Choir until this came up and I resigned in protest, telling Ms Spicer this in writing four years ago, and now it's upon you. Days pass, and nothing happens, days the EFDSS cannot spare. Well, Aesop got it right, in his fable of the ants and the crickets: this ant is now telling you crickets, "I told you then, and all you did was make music and dance, you did not prepare. Now the hard time upon you, I'd suggest you get hopping."


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 May 18 - 08:46 AM

It's all very well putting RISK in capital letters, but what is the actual level of risk? Are you suggesting there is a significant risk of C# House collapsing as a result of these works? That suggests that HS2's engineers haven't properly considered the impact on the thousands of buildings near the tunnels and haven't taken steps to mitigate that.

You are critical of EFDSS for failing to take action, so what are you proposing they should do about it?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:39 AM

That is a worry may be a good idea to move the archive up north to say Newcastle Leeds York Sheffield where it will be safer


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: The Singing Organ Grinder
Date: 16 May 18 - 10:19 AM

HS2 is going to Leeds and Sheffield, Newcastle has tunnels and York, flooding. Appalachia?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 16 May 18 - 10:46 AM

C# is on p3 of this 2015 map.
If I'm reading it rigt it shows the separation as ~25m but not the depth.

Greater London Boroughs, Slough and Buckinghamshire
Ref: Volume 1PDF, 109MB, 21 pages

link to .gov page :
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hs2-property-schemes-maps-greater-london 

I'd be nervous about excavations so close to my house too.
It'd be interesting to see a cross section.
is it worth an email to them for some more information & reassurance?
There's an address on that page.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: Iains
Date: 16 May 18 - 11:05 AM

I would have thought that after the sequential tunnel collapse at Heathrow some years ago there would be great care taken. The enquiry into the Heathrow collapse outlined a series of failures that all contributed. The placing of sensors around for both vibration and also probable multi point GPS monitoring for deformation would also suggest that extreme care is being taken. In recent years multiple tunnels have been built or are under construction in London. The Heathrow express, Crossrail, The Thames water ring main, The Thames Tideway, and the London Power Tunnels. Many of these tunnels weave in and out of existing infrastructure to some pretty tight tolerances. As a lowly newly chartered geologist I worked on some of the early geotechnical investigations for some of these projects. At Stratford market we had plague pits on one side, potential anthrax from an old tanning factory on another, a chemical waste transfer station on the third side and a monks burial ground on the fourth.
    I think it is right that you highlight your concerns but I am sure both the contractors and consulting engineers are well aware of the potential risks and have carried out multiple risk assessments in order to attempt to cover all eventualities.


https://tunneltalk.com/Heathrow-1999-failures-highlight-NATM-misunderstandings.php


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 16 May 18 - 12:30 PM

Jeremy, here is a more detailed map "ct-05-003a" showing the actual tunnels.
Could you tell if they seem accurate? I don't know the area.

p20 on
CFA2 Camden Town: Map book
PDF, 33.2MB, 58 pages
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/461187/Y11_VOL2_CFA02_WATERMARK.pdf
(https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ses2-and-ap3-es-september-2015-volume-2-community-forum-area-reports-and-map-books)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:34 PM

HS2 is absolutely essential. Usual scaremongering from the lefties.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:48 PM

If they can build Crossrail underneath the most congested and valuable real estate in London - often with less than a meter to spare, I can't see HS2 being at risk at all.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:57 PM

HS2 is an unnecessary vanity project. What the North needs is a fast line from Liverpool through Manchester to Sheffield, Leeds, Hull and Newcastle. However this is not particularly a problem.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:58 PM

HS2 is infinitely more important than CS House I would have thought???


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:58 PM

Actually the other thing the North needs is a fast line to Paris and Brussels bypassing London. Maybe a tunnel underneath the whole of London.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 May 18 - 02:26 PM

It is infinitely more expensive Bonzo, if that is how you gauge importance.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:38 PM

It's investment for the future, the importance of which is the transport improvement which we must have to attract overseas businesses here.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:47 PM

London centric always forgets there is a whole country after Watford Gap and that the north has been forgotten by successive governments get HS2 in and move C# house where we can use it


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:14 PM

This sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:25 PM

Overseas businesses aren't coming here Bonzo! No now, we have cut our own throat as far as this is concerned.

Listen, I live in the North, and the last thing we need are more trains to London.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:29 PM

Many of the OP's figures may be open to challenge but I will focus on just one of them: "The steepest incline a train can handle is about 1 in 100." That is nonsense.

Trains coming out of Euston on the present line have been ascending a 1 in 70 gradient since the line was opened in 1837. At first that was considered too steep for the steam locomotives of the day and the bank was rope-worked, but very soon that was abandoned and the steam locomotives took over. Modern trains have much more power available and high-speed trains more still, because they need it for acceleration and to overcome air resistance. Even some places on the existing rail network have gradients much steeper than 1 in 100; for example 1 in 37 between Exeter St Davids and Exeter Central and 1 in 37¾ on the Lickey incline in the West Midlands.

This is not to say that the building of the London end of HS2 won't cause problems. There will be a decade of noise, pollution and disruption for the poor blighters who live near Euston. But the people responsible for planning and digging the tunnels will be very keen to avoid any of them collapsing, regardless of what buildings are above.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: GUEST,Roger Dunant
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:32 PM

David Carter,
Perhaps Carlisle and the far North West and the West of Scotland might want to be included as well.
Roger.


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Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 18 - 03:32 AM

A little background(for those interested)

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tube/nle/user_uploads/guidelines-on-ground-movement-due-to-deep-tunnelling-excavations-2008.pdf


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Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 May 18 - 04:48 AM

Like many people I have doubts about HS2 but it is happening so we have to deal with it.

Any project involves risk, but the risk to buildings in the vicinity of the tunnels is clearly foreseeable and will have been taken into account in the design. Without quantifying the risk, this is just scaremongering.


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Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 May 18 - 04:56 AM

but I am sure both the contractors and consulting engineers

Let us hope that they take more care than Carillion directors and their Auditors.

My concern is that HS2 will only increase the metrocentricity that is already way too arrogant. What the planet and its climate need is not the enlargement of the commuter belt, but jobs in the provinces.

Where is the Gloucester branch of the Bank of England now? The employees couldn't face a cut in Lundun allowance, despite the ease of commuting from affordable housing. Which they are happy to buy as a second home!

And now they want water from the River Severn and don't think that using a restored canal is the best way to move and store water!

And they can't decide what kind of car is best for the air. It's a bus stupid!


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Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 17 May 18 - 05:28 AM

I know nothing about SSH and the risk from HS2 but I do know the Magic Circle is so concerned about proximity of HS2 work- noise, dust, parking etc which will impact on their premises -outside lettings as well as their own performances- that they have set up a special sub committee to address the problems and liaise with contractors. If SSH is affected they will presumably do something similar?
RtS


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Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 17 May 18 - 05:29 AM

D'OH. I should have written CSH or C#H, I suppose!
RtS


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Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 18 - 06:05 AM

"Let us hope that they take more care than Carillion directors and their Auditors"

Do you really think accountants are scientists?
I think the creativity of accountants compared to scientists and engineers is rather an apple/pears comparison!
Accountants spend their lives trying to outfox lawyers and the revenue.


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Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: OldNicKilby
Date: 17 May 18 - 06:35 AM

In Cologne they have been building an Underground. About 6 years ago the Builders managed to cause the collapse of the City Record Office with their incompetent Tunneling to say nothing of many other Buildings As one of my Koln friends said " They achieved what the    R A F failed to do"


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Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 18 May 18 - 12:47 PM

Jeremy, This shows it as ~40m away but ~15m below ground level.

Euston station (3)
Ref: Main Line Sheet 3PDF,
1.26MB, 1 page
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/378201/C221-MMD-CV-DPP-010-200500.pdf 

(from
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hs2-plan-and-profile-maps-euston-to-chetwode)


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Subject: RE: Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 20 May 18 - 09:29 AM

We could save billions in public money asking old men with beards for professional assessments of geological appropriateness instead of qualified civil engineers and established experts in the field.

All we’d have to pay them is free camping and weak beer.

Tsk


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