Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3

Subject: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 23 May 18 - 04:00 PM

Hi,

This is a new thread. We're moving on to James Madison Carpenter Collection versions of Child 9: Fair Flower o Northumberland. Soon the James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2 thread will be closed. Please direct all comments to this thread.

Here's an older version of Child 9 from the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, pp. 04842-04843, with several corrupt stanzas:

    "Fair Flooer o Northumberland," sung by Mrs. A. Lyall of Skene, Dunecht, Aberdeenshire, c.1880. Learned about 50 years ago from her mother, Mrs Ella Roy. Her mother lived in Lyne of Skene and learned ballads from her father and grandfather.

Ae Scottish prisoner was makin' his moan[1],
O gin her love it was easily won,
"O gin I had but a lady to woo,
I would mak her a lady, and that would do."

Ae provost's daughter was walkin' alone,
O but her love it was easily won,
She heard this Scottish prisoner makin his moan,
And she the fair Flooer o' Northumberland.

She hied her to her father's stable,
O but her love it was easily won,
And she's stow'd a steed baith stoot an' able,
To carry then baith to fair Scotland.

As they rode ower the first Scottish moor,
He says, "O but your love was easily won,
Get ye back home. . . . . . ,
Get ye back to Northumberland.

"Hae pity on me as I had on thee,
Althoch my love was easily won,
For a cook in your kitchen I should be,
. . . .


What wye could I tak pity on thee?
Althoch your love it was easily won."
For I hae a wife and bairnies three,
To care for in auld Scotland.

A cook in your kitchen I should be,
Althoch my love it was easily won."
"My lady has no use for such as thee,
So get ye back to Northumberland.

Laith was he this young lady to kill,
Althoch her love it was easily won,
So he bought her an auld horse and hired an auld man,
And hurl'd her bak to Northumberland.

On this bonnie lassie her father did froon,
"O but your love was easily won!
Ye followed a rebel, a wretch was he,
And ye aye the fair Flooer o' Northumberland."

On this bonnie lassie her mother did smile,
"O but your love was easily won!
But ye're nase the first that the Scots hae beguiled,
An' ye're welcome bak to Northumberland."

"Ye sanna[2] want siller, an ye sanna want fee,
Althoch your love it was easily won,
An' ye sanna want gowd to buy another man wi',
And ye aye the fair Flooer o' Northumberland."

_________________________________

1. originally: Ae Scottish prisoner was makin' his moan,
"O gin I had but a lady to woo,
O gin her love it was easily won,
I would mak her a lady, and that would do."
2. sanna, also "shanna" for "shall not"

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 23 May 18 - 04:45 PM

Hi,

Here's another older version of Child 9 from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, pp. 04847-04848.

    The Fair Flooer o Northumberland- sung by John Rogie of Mains o Glen Carvie, Strahdon, Aberdeenshire, c.1871. Learned over 50 years ago from Rob Farquharson of Corgarff. Collected in 1931 by Carpenter.

1. A lady went oot to tak the air,
O that her love was sae easily won,
She heard a young gentleman sighin' sair,
As he lay in her father's prison strong.

2. "Gin some bonnie lassie wid pity me,
O that her love would be easily won,
I wid mak her a lady o high degree,
I wid mak her a lady in fair Scotland."

3. She went tae her father's bedroom,
O that her love was sae easily won,
An' she's stolen the keys o sae many fine locks,
And she's lowsed him oot o his prison sae strong.

4. She went tae her father's stable,
O that her love was sae easily won,
And she's stolen a steed baith ready an' able,
To carry them baith tee brave Scotland.

5. But when they cam yon booers within,
O that her love was sae easily won,
Get aff my steed ye brazen-faced whoor,
An' go get ye bak tae Northumberland.

6. "A cook in your kitchen I will be
O that my love was sae easily won,
. . . .
. . . .

7. "A cook in your kitchen ye canna be,
O that yer love was sae easily won,
For my mistress don't choose such hissies as thee,
Sae gae get ye bak tae Nothumberland."

8. "If ye'll tak me by the middle sae sma',
O that my love was sae easily won,
An' ye'll heave me oot ower yon high castle wall,
For I daur nae gang bak tae Nothumberland."

9. The Laddie was left his lassie to kill,
O that her love was sae easily won,
So he bocht an auld horse an' hired an auld man,
An' sent her safe bak tae Nothumberland.

* * * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 25 May 18 - 09:15 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/10/115, Cylinder 114. This version is short and complete. The second line is a refrain throughout. The original title, crossed out was the refrain, "Maid's Love Whiles is Easy Won."

The Fair Flooer o Northumberland- sung by Bell Duncan of Lambhill, Insch about 1931.

1. The Bailie's[1] dachter's gane doon the toon,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
To hear the prisoner makin' his moan;
He says, "I'm a free lord frae fair Scotland."

2. "Gin some fair maid wid borrow me,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
A son or a husband I wid be,
For I'm a free lord frae fair Scotland."

3. She's deen her till her father's ha',
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
An' stowen the keys tee the prison wa',
To lat him win free tee fair Scotland.

4. She's deen her till her mither's gowd,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
An' she's teen oot a beerly howd[2],
To carry them baith tee fair Scotland.

5. She's deen her till her father's stable,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
An' she's teen oot a guid steed an' an able,
To carry them baith tee fair Scotland.

6. Bet they hadna ridden ower monny a moss,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
Till he bade her loop aff o' her father's best horse,
An' she micht gae back tee Northumberland.

7. For, see nae ye yon castle?" said he
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
"There I hae a wife an' bairnies three,
An' I'm nae a free lord is fair Scotland."

8. "It's a cook in your kitchie I wid be,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
"Bet I canna afford sic a cook as thee,
Sae gae get ye back tee Northumberland."

9. He nae bein' willin' ti dee her nae wrong,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
He boct an ald horse, an' hired an ald man.
An' he sent her back tee Northumberland.

10. Ben cam her father, bein' sae bold,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
Says, "Ye been a Scottish heiress, scarce sixteen years old,
How dare ye come back tee Northumberland."

11. Ben cam her mither, bein' sae mild,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
She's nae the first that the Scots has beguiled."
Says, "Welcome back tee Northumberland."

12. "She sanna want gowd, she sanna want gear,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
An' gowd an' siller will get her anither,
An' she's aye the fair Flooer o' Northumberland.
________________

1. bailiff's
2. "bridely sum," also written "bierly howd," the MS has "big lump" which is not a literal translation.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 18 - 08:24 AM

"Beerly"? Can't find it in the Scots dictionaries.

(This kind of "howd" is said to be restricted to Banffshire.)

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 26 May 18 - 11:05 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, pp. 04845-04846. Jessie Ann Weir was b. 1866, married Alexander B. Campbell-- also known as Mrs. A. B. Campbell (Mrs. Alexander Campbell). Inconsistent dialect.

The Flooer o Northumberland- sung by Mrs. Jesse Campbell of Hassie Wells, Rothienorman about 1931.

1. A rich provost's daughter's was walking alone,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
She heard a young man he was making great moan;
As he lay in the prison so strong."

2. "If some kind lady would set me free,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
I would mak her a lady o' higher degree,
If she'd loose me oot o the prison so strong."

3. She's ventured into her father's beside,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
She's stolen the keys of many fine lock,
And she's loosed him oot o the prison so strong.

4. She's ventured into her father's stable,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
She's stolen the steed which was ready and able,
To carry the man to fair Scotland.

5. When they came to yon Scotch moor,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
Ye'll get out of my presence ye brazen-faced hoar,
And go, get ye back to Northumberland.

6. Oh that's nae the promise that ye made to me,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
"Ye's to mak me as lady o higher degree,
If I's loose ye oot o prison sae strong."

7. "Have pity, have pity, Oh that canna be,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
For I hae a wife in my ain countree,
So go back to Northumberland."

8. "A cook in your kitcheen I will be,
Oh but my love it was easy won,
I'd serve your lady richt modestly,
For I canna gang back to Northumberland."

9. "A cook in my kitcheen you canna be,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
We canna afford such maids as thee,
So go, get ye back to Northumberland."

10. "Ye'll tak me by the middle sae sma',
Oh but my love it was easy won,
Ye'll throw me ower yon high castle wa',
For I canna gang back to Northumberland."

11. When he saw that her mind was so,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
He bocht her an ald horse, an' hired an ald man.
An' he's driven her back to Northumberland.

12. When she cam her father before,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
"Ye'll get out o my presence, you brazen-faced hoar,
And go get my steed back to Northumberland."

13. When she [cam] her mother before,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
You're nae the first that the Scotch have beguiled."
An' ye're aye the flooer o' Northumberland.

14. "Ye canna want gowd and ye canna want gear,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
Ye canna want fee to gain your love wi',
An' ye're aye the flooer o' Northumberland.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 26 May 18 - 11:17 PM

Hi Lighter,

I think it's supposed to be "bierly." In her last stanza "sanna" similar to "canna," also appears as "shanna," for "shall not" and gear= possessions

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 26 May 18 - 11:35 PM

Lighter,

I checked the original Bell Duncan MS (there are two copies, a neater second copy) and next to "beerly howd" is typed (big lump) for "big lump of gowd (gold)." That's crossed out in pencil. It's also written "bierly howd" in pencil on right side.

James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/10/115, Cylinder 114, 00:00
https://www.vwml.org/search?q=RN25%20Carpenter&is=1

The original title, crossed out was "Maid's Love Whiles is Easy Won,"

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 28 May 18 - 09:25 AM

Hi,

Fragment from: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/I, p. 08209, inconsistent dialect. Only two stanzas with music, the rest has been taken from his wife's version (Stanzas 3-14) which has "provost's daughter" in the first line.

The Flooer o Northumberland- sung by Alexander B. Campbell of Hassiewells, Rothienorman about 1931.

1. A rich bailie's daughter was walking her lane,
O but her love it was easy won,
She heard a young man, he was making great moan;
As he lay in the prison so strong."

2. "If any kind lady would set me free,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
I would mak her a lady o' highest degree,
If she loose me out o' the prison so strong."

[3. She's ventured into her father's bedside,
O but her love it was easy won,
She's stolen the keys o many a fine lock,
And she's lowsed him oot o the prison sae strong.

4. When they cam to yon Scottish moor,
O but her love it was easy won,
"Ye'll get oot o my presence, ye brazen-faced whore,
And go get ye back to Northumberland.

5. "O that's the promise that ye gae to me,
O but my love it was easy won,
Ye's to mak me a lady o higher deegree,
If I lowse ye oot o the prison sae strong."

6. "Hae pity, hae pity, hae pity," she cried,
"O but my love it was easy won,
Hae pity on me as I had on thee,
When I lowse ye oot o the prison sae strong."

7. "Hae pity, hae pity, O thant canna be,
O but your love it was easy won,
For I hae a wife in my ain countrie,
So go, get ye back to Northumberland."

8. "A cook in your kitchen I will be,
O but my love it was easy won,
I'd serve your lady richt modestly,
For I canna gang back to Northumberland."

9. "A cook in my kitchen ye canna be,
O but your love it was easy won,
We canna afford such maids as thee,
So go, get ye back to Northumberland."

10. "Ye'll tak me by the middle sae sma',
O but my love it was easy won,
Ye'll throw me ower yon high castle wa',
For I canna gang back to Northumberland."

11. When he saw that her mind was so,
O but your love it was easy won,
He bocht an ald horse, and hired an ald man.
And he's driven her back to Northumberland.

12. When she cam her father before,
O but your love it was easy won,
"Ye'll get oot o my presence, ye brazen-face whore,
And go get my steed back to Northumberland."

13. When she cam her mother, before,
O but your love it was easy won,
"Ye're nae the first that the Scots hae beguiled."
And ye're aye the Flooer o' Northumberland.

14. "Ye sanna want gowd, she sanna want gear,
Althoch your love it was easy won,
Ye sanna want fee to gain your love wi',
And ye're aye the Flooer o' Northumberland.]
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 May 18 - 10:18 AM

Dict of Scots Language - bierly - adj. Stalwart, well-built, powerful. Also fig. Gen.Sc.

It would be curious in association with howd, which the dictionary gives the meaning of a large amount, but in a figurative sense might work.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 28 May 18 - 10:50 AM

Thanks Mick,

Here's a single penultimate stanza with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/15, Disc Side 015, 04:28 from Mrs Jessie Davidson of Willow Cottage, Tugnet, Speybay, Morayshire Scotland, 1931. She was born 17 September, 1863 in Dufftown as Jessie Duncan.

Fair Flooer of Northumberland- sung by Mrs Jessie Davidson, Willow Cottage, Tugnet, Speybay, Morayshire in 1931.

On this bonnie lassie her mother did smile,
"O but your love it was easily won,
You are nae the first that the Scotch has beguiled.
Welcome back to Northumberland."
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 28 May 18 - 11:29 AM

Hi,

Fragment from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, p. 04844

The Fair Flooer o' Northumberland- sung by Miss Bathia Fowlie, aged 63, of Middle Muir, Methlick, Aberdeenshire. She got the ballad from her mother who sang and recited while knitting.

   He bocht an old horse an' he hired an ald man
And sent her safe back to Northumberland.

On this bonnie lassie her father did frown,
"O but your love was sae easily won!
Ye've letten awa' a traitor, a clown,
And you the fair Flooer o' Northumberland."

But on this bonnie lassie her mother did smile,
"What thoch your love was easily won,
You are nae the first that the Scots hae beguiled,
Thoch ye are the fair Flooer o' Northumberland."

"Ye winna want meat, and ye winna want fee,
Waht thoch your love was easily won,
An' ye winna want gowd to buy another man wi',
And ye'll aye be the Flooer o' Northumberland."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 28 May 18 - 11:30 AM

Richie, "sanna" is "shall not."

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 28 May 18 - 11:35 AM

TY Lighter, got that and changed it. Also appears as "shanna" which is better,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 28 May 18 - 12:44 PM

Hi,

James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, pp. 04849-04850

Flower of Northumberland - sung by Annie Shirier of Kininmonth, Aberdeenshire, about 1910 collected Grieg from his article in Folk-songs of the North-East (see also: Last Leaves).

1. The provost's daughter's was walking alone,
Oh but her love was easy won,
She heard a Scotch prisoner making his moan;
She was the Flower of Northumberland."

2. "Oh, gin a may(girl) would borrow me,
Oh gin her love was easy won,
I wad mak her a lady o' high degree,
If she'd loose me oot o this prison sae strong."

3. She hae gane to her father's bedstock,
Oh but her love was easy won,
She's stolen the keys of many fine lock,
And she's loosed him oot o the prison so strong.

4. She's done to her father's stable,
Oh but her love was easy won,
And she's stolen a steed that was baith fleet and able,
Tae carry him on tee fair Scotland.

5. As they were baith riding across the Scotch moor,
Oh but her love was easy won,
Gang doon from my horse, I can have you no more,
I am now riding safe on my own Scotch muir.

6. For I hae a wife in my ain countree,
Oh but your love was easy won,
I canna dee naething wi' a miss like thee,
So you'll better gang back to Northumberland."

7. "A cook in your kitchen I will be,
Altho' my love it was easy won,
I'll wait at your table and serve your leddy,
For I canna gang back to Northumberland."

8. "It's cook in my kitchen you canna be,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
My leddy she cann hae servants like thee,
So ye'll better gang back tee Northumberland."

9. Laith[1] was he the lassie tae tine,
Alhto' her love it was easy won,
He bocht her an auld horse, an' hired an auld man.
An' he sent her safe back to Northumberland.

10. When she gaed in, her father did frown,
And said, "Oh but your love it was easy won,
"To follow a Scot, when you're scarcely eighteen,
And you were the flower o' Northumberland."

11. But when she gaed ben her mother before,
And says, "Oh but your love it was easy won,
But you're nae the first that the Scotch hae beguiled."
And you're welcome back to Northumberland.

12. "Ye sanna wint bried(bread) and ye sanna wint wine,
Altho' your love it was easy won,
And ye sanna wint siller to buy a man wi',
And you're aye the Flower o' Northumberland.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:09 PM

Carpenter Collection now searchable on line-
https://www.vwml.org/projects/carpenter-folk-online

carpenter collection

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 31 May 18 - 08:51 PM

Hi,

There are 130 entries for Child 10 in the Carpenter Collection-- most of them are duplicates (over a dozen versions). Here's a fragment of Child 10 from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/H, p. 11912. This is associated with the standard Scottish text, Child M from Aberdeenshire.

"Binorie" sung by Alex Robb of New Deer, Aberdeenshire, c. 1931

There wis twa maidens lived in a ha',
Binorie, Oh and Binorie,
And they had ae lad 'tween them twa,
And they ca'ed him hte bonny miller's laddie.

Sister, Oh sister will ye tak my hand,
Binorie, Oh and Binorie,
and we'll go and see our father's fishing boat come to land,
On the bonny mill dams o' Binorie.

The eldest stood upon a steen,
[Binorie, Oh and Binorie,]
And the youngest came and shoved her in,
[On the bonny mill dams o' Binorie.]
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 11:38 PM

Hi,

Maybe someone can help with the origin of Child 10A: In 1852 Edward Rimbault said in Notes and Queries that he had a copy of a broadside "The Miller's Melody" which was "printed for Francis Grove" dated 1656. He gave a version titled, "The Miller and the King's Daughter" which is Child A and attributed it to James Smith. E. David Gregory (Victorian Songhunters) said Rimbault got his copy from The Anthony Wood Collection in the Bodleian Collection, Oxford. Problem is: There's no record of any broadside titled "Miller's Melody" or "The Miller and the King's Daughter" or that it was in Wit Restor'd, 1658 although it is in an 1817 reprint but it may not be reprinted exactly. Where is the 1658 issue of Wit Restor'd? Why is Jamieson's text different than Rimbault's? Why is James Smith attributed as the author? Is there a 1655 or 1665 edition of Facetiae, Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation?

Just wondering?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 07:25 AM

"Musarum Deliciae: or, The Muses' Recreation," by Sir John Mennes (London: Henry Herringman), appeared in 1655 with another edition in 1656.

"Facetiae" does not appear in the title.

According to the English Short Title Catalogue, which lists no 1665 edition.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 07:49 AM

Sir John Mennes, "Wit Restor'd In severall select poems Not formerly publisht" (London: R. Pollard, N. Brooks, and T. Dring, 1658), pp. 51-54:

The Miller and the King's Daughter

By Mr. Smith.

There were two Sisters they went a playing,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe-a-
To see their fathers ships come sayling in
With a hy downe, downe, a downe-o-

And when they came unto the sea-brym,
With, &c,
The elder did push the younger in;
With, &c.

O Sister, O Sister, take me by the gowne,
With, &c,
And drawe me up upon the dry ground.
With, &c.

O Sister, O Sister, that may not bee,
With, &c.
Till salt and oatmeale grow both of a tree;
With, &c.

Somtymes she sanke, Somtymes she swam,
With, &c.
Untill she came unto the mil-dam;
With, &c.

The miller runne hastily downe the cliffe,
With &c,
And up he be took her withouten her life,
With, &c.

What did he doe with her brest bone?
With, &c.
He made him a viall to play thereupon,
With, &c.

What did he doe with her fingers so small?
With, &c.
He made him peggs to his Violl withall;
With, &c.

What did he doe with her nose-ridge?
With, &c.
Unto his Violl he made him a bridge,
With, &c.

What did he do with her Veynes so blewe?
with, &c.
He made him strings to his Viole thereto;
with, &c.

What did he doe with her eyes so bright?
with, &c.
Upon his Violl he playd at first sight;
with, &c.

What did he doe with her tongue soe rough?
with, &c.
Unto the violl it spake enough;
with, &c.

What did he doe with her two shinnes?
with, &c.
Unto the violl they danc't Moll Syms;
with, &c.

Then bespake the treble string,
with, &c.
O yonder is my father the King;
with, &c.

Then bespake the second string,
with &c.
O yonder sitts my mother the Queen:
with, &c.

And then bespake the stringes all three;
with, &c.
O yonder is my sister that drowned mee.
with, &c.

Now pay the miller for his payne,
with, &c.
And let him bee gone in the divels name.
with, &c.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 08:57 AM

It's probably off-topic as far as the Carpenter versions are concerned, but the history of this ballad interests me a lot. There's the early 'Miller and the King's Daughter' reproduced above, which looks like a burlesque, and similar though not identical burlesque versions from the 19th century under Child 10L. Aside from those, all of the variants from England that I know of are of the 'Bow Down' type, with no supernatural element.

The Appalachian variants are likewise the 'Bow Down' type, apart from a couple of rogue versions with 'Wind and Rain' or 'Jenny Flower Gentle' refrains, which are the only US versions with a magical fiddle or harp.

Then there are various Scots examples, mostly including magical instruments, ranging from the 'Bows of London' and 'Swan Swims so Bonny' refrains, to all of the 'Binnorie' / 'Edinboro' variants which Bronson seemed to think were derived from Scott's 'Minstrelsie'. 'Binnorie' is vanishingly rare in the US.

So my question is, what's the oldest example of the 'Bow Down' type? Its currency in Appalachia would suggest that it was around in Britain by the mid-18th century, but it's very different from 'The Miller and the King's Daughter'.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 09:06 AM

Smith's poem is grotesque, but I'm not sure what it might "burlesque."

Its macabre quality reminds me strongly of the German folk tales collected 150 years later by the Brothers Grimm.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 09:20 AM

Perhaps I'm misusing the word 'burlesque'.

What I'm wondering (amongst other things) is, how does Smith's poem relate to the broader tradition of the ballad?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 09:49 AM

Hi,

TY Lighter

So do we assume that "Musarum Deliciae, Or The Muses Recreation: Conteining Severall Select Pieces of Sportive Wit" by James Smith; publisher Herringman, 1655 is the same copy? That edition is at google books- no preview.

Can you provide a link to the 1658 copy? I assume there's also a 1656 copy.

Why does Rimbault's copy have the second chorus as "With a hy downe, downe, a downe-a" instead of "downe-o"?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 10:17 AM

Brian,

Here are my notes for the two versions 1770 and 1775 from Parsons and the first stanza (I have the original MSS copies from Harvard Library):

'There was a king lived in the North Country'- Version Y; Communicated to Percy, April 7. 1770, and April 19, 1775, by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent: "taken down from the mouth of the spinning-wheel, if I may be allowed the expression." [There are two versions that Parsons gave Percy, the second from 1775 marked-- "imperfect" by Parsons? was used by Child. The second stanza given by Parsons in 1770 is missing from Child's text. An additional stanza was added at the end in 1775 which is not in Parson's original 1770 text. This stanza does not fit because the stanza before it is missing. "River's" brim (1770) has been changed to "sea-side" brim (1775).]

   * * * * *
1    There was a king lived in the North Country,
      Hey down down dery[1] down
There was a king lived in the North Country,
      And the bough it was bent to me
There was a king lived in the North Country,
And he had daughters one, two, three.
      I'll prove true to my love,
      If my love will prove true to me.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 10:21 AM

Hi,

Barry in the 1930s labeled Child versions to DD but only mentions CC and DD but fails to say what Child AA and BB were. Anyone know?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 10:26 AM

Richie, the 1655 ed. contains "severall select pieces of sportive vvdit." The 1656, "severall pieces of poetique wit."

Each title page has "By Sr J.M. and Ja: S." (I.e., Sir John Mennes and Dr. James Smith.)

1655 has 87 pp. 1656, expanded, has 101.

The poem first appears in the 1656 ed.

Complete title pages:

Musarum deliciae: or, The Muses recreation. Conteining severall select pieces of sportive vvit. / By Sr J.M. and Ja:S. , London, : Printed for Henry Herringman, and are to be sold at his shop, at the signe of the Anchor in the New Exchange, 1655.

Musarum deliciae: or, The Muses recreation. Conteining severall pieces of poetique wit. / By Sr J.M. and Ja: S. , London, : Printed by J.G. for Henry Herringman, and are to be sold at his shop, at the signe of the Anchor in the New Exchange, 1656.

Wit restor'd in several select poems not formerly publish't. London : Printed for R. Pollard, N. Brooks, and T. Dring, and are to be sold at the Old Exchange, and in Fleetstreet, 1658.


The link I have is through the indispensable "Early English Books Online," which you may be able to access through the nearest university library.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 11:01 AM

TY Lighter,

Here's the text from Popular ballads and songs, from tradition, MSS., and scarce eds.; edited by Robert Jamieson, 1806 which he says comes from the 1656 edition of "Musarum Deliciae." There are numerous small differences which may be editorial-- the question is why are there differences. Jamieson's notes and text follow:

*From "Musarum Deliciae, or the Muse's recreation, containing several pieces of Poetique Wit, the second edit, by sir J. M. and A. S. 1656." It is also found in "Wit Restored, by J.S. London, 1658 and in Dryden's Miscellanies; and is said to be by Mr Smith.

THE MILLER AND THE KING'S DAUGHTER

There were two sisters, they went a-playing,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a;
To see their father's ships sailing in,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

And when they came into the sea brim,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a,
The elder did push the younger in,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

"O sister, sister, take me by the gown,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
And draw me up on the dry ground,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a'."

"O sister, O sister, that may not be,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a,
Till salt and oatmeal grow both of a tree,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a."

Somtymes she sank, sometimes she swam,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
Untill she came unto the milldam,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a'.

The miller run hastily down the cliffe,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a,
And up he betouk her withouten life,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

What did he doe with her brest bone,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a,
He made him a violl to play thereupon,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

What did he doe with her fingers so small,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
He made him peggs to his viol withall,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

What did he doe with her nose-ridge,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
Unto his violl he made him a bridge,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a'.

What did he with her veynes so blew,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
He made him strings to his viole thereto,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

What did he doe with her eyes so bright,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
Upon his violl he play'd at first sight,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a'.

What did he doe with her tongue so rough,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a?
Unto the violl it spoke enough,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

What did he doe with her two shinnes,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
Unto the violl they danct Moll Syins,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

Then bespake the treble string,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a,
"O yonder is my father the king,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a."

Then bespake the second string,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.
"O yonder sits my mother the queen,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a."

And then bespake the strings all three,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.
"O yonder is my sister that drowned mee,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a."

"Now pay the miller for his payne,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a;
And let him begone in the devil's name,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 02:45 PM

Intriguing!
I also am interested in this ballad. There are lots of anomalies we need to look into. We perhaps need to slow down on this one rather than hurrying through, and try to come to some useful conclusions or at least list the probabilities and possibilities.

The most pressing is perhaps to ascertain if there ever was an English broadside.

If indeed the broadside existed in the Wood Collection then the Bodleian will surely have a record of it, unless the Bodl acquired the collection after the broadside went missing.

Someone needs to check the full Stationers Register to see if it was actually registered to Francis Grove. I only have the abridged Rollins book and it's not in there.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 03:43 PM

Hi Steve,

I emailed the Bodleian library and told them that E. David Gregory wrote in Victorian Songhunters that Rimbault got the "Miller's Melody" broadside from the Anthony Wood Collection. I asked them if they had the broadside under either title since there is no record of it in their catalogue online. Neither "The Miller and the King's Daughter" nor "Miller's Melody" have shown up as a broadside in any searches at Copac, Google books, or Bodelian so the broadside is not only missing but seems to never have existed. If so, why did Rimbault fabricate that evidence and "Miller's Melody" title?

Here's the article by Edward F. Rimbault in Notes and Queries 1852 p. 591 (Child has p. 316.), which is nearly the identical text posted by Lighter from Musarum Deliciae 1658 (in the Musarum Deliciæ text the second refrain ends with an "o" as "With a hy downe, downe, a downe-o.":

"THE MILLERS MELODY," AN OLD BALLAD

The original ballad of "The Miller's Melody" is the production of no less a person than a "Doctor in Divinity," of whom the following are a few brief particulars.

James Smith was born about 1604, educated at Christ Church and Lincoln Colleges, in Oxford; afterwards naval and military chaplain to the Earl of Holland, and domestic chaplain to Thomas Earl of Cleveland. On the Restoration of Charles II. beheld several Church preferments, nnd ultimately became canon and "chauntor" in Exeter Cathedral. Ha was created D.D. in 1661, and quitted this life in 1667. Wood informs us he was much in esteem "with the poetical wits of that time, particularly with Philip Massinger, who call'd him his son."

I have an old "broadside" copy of the ballad in question, "Printed for Francis Grove, 1656," which is here transcribed, verbatim et literatim, for the especial benefit of your numerous readers. It may also be found in a rare poetical volume, entitled Wit Restored, 1658, and in Dryden's Miscellany Poems (second edition, which differs materially from the first).

The Miller And The King's Daughter         
By Mr. Smith

"There were two sisters they went playing,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe-a,
To see their father's ships come sayling in.
With a hy downe, downe, a downe-a.

"And when they came unto the sea-brym,
With, &c.
The elder did push the younger in;
With, &c.

"O sister, O sister, take me by the gowne,
With, &c.
And drawe me up upon the dry ground,
With, &c.

"O sister, O sister, that may not bee,
With, &c.
Till salt and oatmeale grow both of a tree,
With, &c.

"Sometymes she sanke, sometymes she swam,
With, &c.
Until she came unto the mill-dam;
With, &c.

"The miller runne hastily downe the cliffe,
With, &c.
And up he betook her withouten her life,
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her brest bone?
With, &c.
He made him a violl to play thereupon,
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her fingers so small?
With, &c.
He made him peggs to his violl withall;
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her nose-ridge?
With, &c.
Unto his violl he made him a bridge,
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her veynes so blew?
With, &e.
He made him strings to his violl thereto;
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her eyes so bright?
With, &c.
Upon his violl he played at first sight;
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her tongue so rough?
With, &c.
Unto the violl it spake enough;
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her two shinnes?
With, &c.
Unto the violl they danc'd Mall Syms;   
With, &c.

"Then bespake the treble string,
With, &c.
O yonder is my father the king;
With, &c.

"Then bespake the second string,
With, &c.
O yonder sitts my mother the queen;
With, &c.

"And then bespake the strings all three;
With, &c.
O yonder is my sister that drowned mee.
With, &c.

"Now pay the miller for his payne,
With, &c.
And let him bee gone in the divel's name.
With, &c."

As this old ditty turns upon the making "a viol," it may be as well to add that this instrument was the precursor of the violin: but while the viol was the instrument of the higher classes of society, the "fiddle" served only for the amusement of the lower. The viol was entirely out of use at the beginning of the last century.

Moll (or Mall) Symms (mentioned in the thirteenth stanza) was a celebrated dance tune of the sixteenth century. The musical notes may be found in Queen Elizabeth's Virginal Bonk, in the Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge; and in the curious Dutch collection, Neder Lanttche Oedenck clank, Uberlem, 1626.

Edward F. Rimbault.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 04:12 PM

I've searched the cyber version of "A transcript of the registers of the Worshipful Company of Stationers, from 1640-1708, A.D." without success.

Francis Grove is mentioned on 10 Jan. 1648/49 and on 11 Oct. 1653 only.

Neither case bears any obvious relevance to this discussion.

As a matter of interest, Mennes's "Musarum Delitiae [sic]" is entered at 1 June 1655.

I find no mention in the 1640-1708 Registers of any publication called "The Miller and the King's Daughter" or "The Miller's Melody," or any at all with "Miller" or "King's Daughter" in the title.

The same holds for the Registers of 1554-1640.

Presumably James Smith is credited as the author because he wrote or rewrote the piece as it appeared in 1658.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 05:06 PM

That's odd, Jon! Rollins gives the following entries for the earlier period.
Miller and King (1625)
The Miller and the Kinge (1625, probably same piece)
A Miller I am (1564)
The Miller's Daughter of Mannchester (1581).

It's well worth reading Child's headnotes to throw some light on origins. Generally Scandinavian versions are fairly recent and from oral tradition (Norse, Danish, Swedish) but he refers to one Icelandic version of the 17th century. That still leaves the very real possibility of an English origin and Smith as the author. I fully believe 17thc broadside ballads like Cruel Mother, Demon Lover, Lord Thomas & Fair Eleanor are the originals, so why not this one?

Rimbault may well have had a broadside of the same date 1656 printed by Grove in his possession. These items are extremely valuable and I'm certain there are still many out there in private collections . Where does it state that the broadside was from the Antony Wood Collection. Apart from anything else Wood may have sold/swapped his copy before it came to the Bodl. I cannot conceive that a highly esteemed antiquarian would lie about such a thing. Why not just say he got his copy from one of the other contemporary sources?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 05:20 PM

A confusing aspect of 17thc pieces is those items that appeared in anthologies were often claimed by others to have been written by the compilers, as is often the case with D'Urfey's Pills. It may well be that Smith was simply one of the compilers. Child opines that the ballad may already have existed and that Smith might have added the 3 'burlesque' stanzas. Whilst this is possible it is still only conjecture.

BTW I have Grove's dates as 1620-1655. It might be possible to find out when he died, but often when a printer died his family carried on the press using the established name.

Going back to the origin question, where Scandinavian versions occur the vast majority have usually been translated into English in the 18th and 19th centuries, but it is quite likely that a few went in the opposite direction. In fact I'm pretty certain those few Danish versions of The Cruel Mother derive directly from Grundtvig's 1840 translation from Engelske into Danske.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 05:57 PM

Odd indeed, Steve! An artifact of HathiTrust Digital Library?

A search specifically for "[The] Miller and King" hits 16 Dec. 1624.

For "The Miller and the Kinge," "ultimo" (last day) June 1625.

For "The Miller's Daughter of Mannchester " 2 March 1581.

For "A Miller I Am" . . . Nothing!

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 06:08 PM

Just checked again under Rimbault's titles.

Still nothing.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 06:25 PM

Lighter,

The macabre folk tales similar to Child 10 are explored in Mackensen's "The Singing Bone," see also Thompson. Child 10 has been adapted in 1890 as an English fairy tale "Binnorie" by Joseph Jacob: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/binnorie--joseph-jacob--english-fairy-tales-1890.aspx

The Scandinavian variants are not analogues but derivative variants see " 'The Twa Sisters,' Going Which Way?" by Harbison Parker, 1951 who says, "Knut Liestol concludes concerning this perplexing ambiguity, in his study of 'Dei tvo systar,' that the likeliest explanation of this is, that the ballad first was composed in England or Scotland, there split itself into two versions, and both of these then came to Scandinavia by different paths, one to Norway (Iceland, the Faeroe Islands) and the other to Denmark." Phillips Barry, 1931, however says, "The diffusion of the ballad from Scandinavia to Britain has been rightly and generally accepted." I suppose Parker's study is a rebuttal to both of Barry's articles.

Barry was critical of Archer Taylor's 1929 study which separated the ballads into two forms: the English and Scottish forms.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 06:39 PM

Hi Steve,

Here's the quote and info about the broadside from Gregory who says that Harland also had been given a copy of the broadside by Rimbault:

https://books.google.com/books?id=qIycePVvVa4C&pg=PA238&dq=Victorian+Songhunters+Rimbault+Miller+and+the+King%27s+daughter&hl=en

Lighter, since there were two authors of Musarum Deliciæ, Mennes and Smith, anything submitted by Smith would have his name. He is not likely the author but he submitted the ballad.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 07:14 PM

Hi,

Here's Child's query from a Dec. 1800, Notes and Queries issue:

“The Miller And The King's Daughter.”— Jamieson, in his Popular Ballads and Songs, 1806, i. 315, prints: 1. copy of “The Miller and the King's Daughter,” as from the second edition of Musarum Deliciae, 1656. This copy presents two or three slight variations from Dr. Rimbault’s broadside of the same date, which is printed in "N&Q.,” 1st S. v. 591, and also from the copy in the 1817 reprint of Wit Restored (1658). The reprint of Musarum Deliciae: in the latter volume has not the ballad of “The Miller and the King’s Daughter,” and yet it was made with care by a person who had both the edition of 1655 and that of 1656 in his hands, which differ not in the least as to contents, according to that editor. Is there, nevertheless, a copy of Musarum Deliciae, 1656, which contains the ballad in question?

F. J. C.

Cambridge, Mass.

* * * *

This says the 1658 edition version (given by Lighter) was reprinted in 1817. Child was trying to verify the ballad in the earlier editions. He suggests that according to the editor the ballad submitted by Smith was printed in 1655 in the first edition (since it differed not in content),

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 07:32 PM

Hi,

I'm not sure where Gregory (Victorian Songhunters) got his information, since the part about Harland seems to be incorrect. When Harland printed three versions (one was Rimbault's), he never mentioned that he saw or had a copy of the broadside of Rimbault's, he only provided a 1656 date (same as Musarum Deliciae second edition):

Here are Harland's notes from "Ballads and Songs of Lancashire Chiefly Older Than the 19th Century" as edited by John Harland, 1865:

Again, Dr. Rimbault gives another version of the ballad, evidently earlier than that last cited, and which he states to be the production of a James Smith, D.D. (Oxford), born 1604, and died 1667 ; respecting whom Wood says “he was much in esteem with the poetical wits of the time, particularly with Philip Massinger, who called him his son.” We append this ballad (as printed from an old broadside copy of 1656), omitting the burden after the first verse:
* * * *

The text is the same as given by Rimbault in Notes and Queries.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 08:24 PM

Not sure why Smith cannot be the author, since there are no earlier ballad versions known and the book clearly says "By Mr. Smith."

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 12:50 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/B, p. 11501. This version resembles Walter Scott's version, Child C.

"Bilnorie," sung by Peter Christie (b. 1870) of 21 Shore Road, Stonehaven, Kincardineshire about 1931.

1    There twa sisters lived in a booer,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
There was a knicht to be their wooer,
      By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

2    He courted the eldest wi' glove an' ring,
       Bilnorie O Bilnorie
But the youngest he loved abeen a' thing,
      By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

3   The eldest's heart was vexed saer,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
An' she envied her sister dear
       By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

4 The eldest said to the youngest een,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
Will ye gang an' see oor father's ships coming in,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O?

5. She's ta'en her sister by the hand,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And led her by the river strand,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

6. Her sister stood upon a steen,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And the eldest cam and shoved her in,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

6. O sister, sister, reach your hand,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And ye shall be heir o' all your land,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

7. "O sister, I'll not reach my hand,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And I shall be heir o' all your land,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

8. O sister, sister, reach your glove,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And Sweet William shall be your love,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

9. O sister, I'll not reach my glove,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And Sweet William shall better be my love,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

10   Sometimes she sank, sometimes she swam,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
Until she cam to the millet's dam,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

11. The millet's dochter was bakin breid,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And gaed for water as she need,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

11. "O father father, draw your dam,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
There's a mermaid or a milk-white swan,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O."

12. Her father hastened and drew the dam,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And there he found a drowned woman,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

13. He couldna see her yellow hair,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
For gowd and pearls hung to her ear,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

14. He couldna see her lily feet,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
Her golden girdle hung so deep,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

15. "Sair will they be, whae'er they be,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
The heart that lives to weep for thee,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O."

16. When by there cam a harper fine,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
He harped the nobles when they dine,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

17. He made a harp o her breistbone,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
Wha's tune would melt the heart o steen,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 12:58 PM

Hi Lighter,

Smith could be the author, but considering the range and scope of the ballad it's more likely his arrangement or perhaps something he copied from print-- as it is the same text given by Rimbault from the mystery broadside (if the broadside is after 1655 Smith could be the source). Anything he submitted whether he wrote it or not would have his name attached. So yes, it's possible he wrote it, I just don't think so. Child says:

Both of these name "Mr. Smith" as the author; that is, Dr. James Smith, a well-known writer of humorous verses, to whom the larger part of the pieces in Wit Restor'd has been attributed. If the ballad were ever in Smith's hands, he might possibly have inserted the three burlesque stanzas, 11-13; but similar verses are found in another copy (L a), and might easily be extemporized by any singer of sufficiently bad taste.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 04:24 PM

Since the Rimbault broadside - if it exists - gives the same text, Smith could just as easily be the author, no matter when the sheet was published. The broadside might have been reprinted from the book, with or without Smith's name on it.

That seems most likely to me, but there is simply no way to know.

If the broadside was reprinted from the book (already accounted for in 1656), would the Stationers Register be expected to have an entry for it?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 05:57 PM

Unfortunately not all broadsides were registered for some reason. I don't know if registration would be required if the ballad had already been published.

It would be worth checking through 'Wit Restor'd' to see if any of the other pieces were of anything like this style. The couplet with refrains doesn't appear to be that common even at this early stage. Off hand the only other one I can think of is 'Duke's Daughter's Cruelty (Cruel Mother). Robin Hood ballads of course.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 07:41 PM

Hi,

A different ending with a varied 2nd refrain from James Madison Carpenter Collection (JMC/1/8/1/A, p. 11483) associated with the standard Scottish text of Child M also taken from Aberdeenshire.

"Binorie,"sung by William Walker (b. 1870) of Bonnykelly, New Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire; learned about 1900 from Alex McDonald.

1    Twa Scottish[1] sisters lived in a booer,
      Binorie O Binorie
The miller's bonnie laddie a-courtin' then came,
      By the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

2    He's courted the eldest wi' diamonds an' rings,
       Binorie O Binorie
He's courted the youngest wi' far better things,
      She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.

3   He's courted the eldest in her father's ha',
      Binorie, O Binorie
He's courted the youngest amon' the sheets sae sma',
       By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

4 "O sister, O sister, gin ye'll tak a walk,
       Binorie, O Binorie
Ye'll hear the bonnie blackbirds a whistlin' ower their tunes,
An' ye'll see the bonnie miller o Binorie."

5. "O sister, O sister, I will tak a walk,
       Binorie, O Binorie
I will hear the bonnie blackbirds a whistlin' ower their tunes,
But I'll nae see the bonnie miller o Binorie."

5. They've walked up, and they've walked doon,
       Binorie, O Binorie
They've walked doon by yon bonnie plantain side,
An' doon to the dams o Binorie.

6. They've walked up, an' they've walked doon,
       Binorie, O Binorie
Until the eldest did ding the youngest in,
Tee the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

7. "O sister, O sister, if you'll tak my hand,
      Binorie O Binorie
Ye'll get a part o my gowd an' a part o my land,
And ye'll get the bonnie miller o Binorie.

8. "It wanna for your gowd that I dang you in,
      Binorie O Binorie
Because ye are sae fair an' I'm sae very din,
You can droon in the dams o Binorie."

9   She floated up, an' she floated doon,
      Binorie O Binorie
She sank tae the bottom ne'er to rise again,
She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.

10. The miller's servant girlie went oot tae the dam,
      Binorie O Binorie
Twas for some water to wash the miller's hands,
Frae the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

11. "O miller, miller, there's fishes in your dam,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Or there is a young lady or else your white swan,
Swimmin' up an' doon the dams o Binorie."

12. They fished up, an' they fished doon,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
Until they got her on a stane,
She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.

13. He didna ken her by her gowden yellow hair,
      Binorie O Binorie
But weel did he ken her by the gowden rings he gae her,
She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.

14. Mony's the ane was at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, O Binorie
An' the bonnie miller laddie died at her grave makin'
She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.

___________________________________

1. In the music MS: "Twa courted sisters. . ."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 08:31 PM

Hi,

Here's an older fragment similar to Walker's version and Child M from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08721. Stanza 6 is two stanzas combines (5 lines). I've added some text in brackets to make the end more complete.

"Binorie," sung by Mrs. Mary Thain of Castle St., Banff, learned before 1870 from Kate McClennan.

1    He courted the one with a gay gowd ring,
       Binorie and Benorie
He courted the youngest witha far better thing,
      She's the bonnie millert's lass o Binorie.

2. O sister, O sister, it's we'll tak a walk,
       Binorie and Benorie,
And we'll hear the blackbirds a whistlin ower the tunes,
Bet we winna see the bonnie millert frae Binorie.

3. They've walked up by bonnie plantain side,
       Binorie and Benorie
The eldest dang the youngest into the dam,
An' doon to the dams o Binorie.

4. O sister, O sister, it's ye'll take my hand,
      Binorie and Benorie
Ye'll have half-pairt o my gowd an' the third-pairt o my land,
And ye'll be the millert's lass o Binorie.

5. "It wisna for that that I dang you in,
      Binorie and Benorie
Because ye wis sae fair an' I sae dun,
An' ye'll droon in the dams o Binorie.

6. The millert's servant lass gaed oot tae the dam,
      Binorie and Benorie
It wis for some water to wash the millert's hand;
"Ye'll get a swan or a white woman
Drowned in the dams o Binorie."

7. They fished up, an' they fished doon,
      Binorie and Benorie
[Until they got her on a stane,
She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.]

8. [Mony's the ane was at her oot-takin',
Binorie and Benorie]
The miller lad died at her grave makin'
She's his ain bonnie lassie o Binorie.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 04 Jun 18 - 10:32 AM

Hi,

Here's Bell Duncan's version from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/285, Disc Side 279, 04:21. Bell uses "mullert" for miller; stanza 4 is nonconforming. Her version is similar to William Walker's.

"Binorie," sung by Miss Bell Duncan of Lambhill, Insch, Aberdeenshire about 1931, probably dating back to early to mid-1800s.

1    There wis twa sisters lived in a booer,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie,
An' the youngest was the fairest flooer,
    She's the bonnie mullert's lass o Binorie.

2    He courted the eldest wi' ribbons an' rings,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie,
But he courted the youngest wi far better things,
    She's the bonnie mullert's lass o Binorie.

3    "O dear sister, we may tak a walk,
       Binorie, aye O Binorie,
An' hear a' the blackbirds whistle ower their notes,
   An' we'll see the mullert's lad o Binorie."

4 They walked up, an' sae hae they doon,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie,
By the bonnie milldams o Binorie.
Until the eldest ane dang the youngest in,
   Tee the deepest milldam o Binorie.

5. O sister, dear sister, reach me yer hand,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie
"I'll gie ye half my siller, an' a third pairt o' my lan',
    And the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie.

6. "It wisna for that that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie
Bet ye're sae very fair an' I sae very din,
   Ye may droon in the dam o Binorie."

7. The mullert's servant lass she's gane oot tae the dam,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie
It wis for water ti wash the mullert's hands,
    The bonnie mullert laddie o Binorie.

8. "O dear maister, there's fish in yer dam,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie,
Or there's a droont lady or else a fite (white) swan,
    In the deepest milldam o Binorie."

9. He his dammed his burns a roon,
      Binorie aye O Binorie
An' they've taen her oot an' laid her on a stane,
   By the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

10. There wis nae ane kent her by her yellow hair,
      Binorie aye O Binorie
But the mullert laddie kent her by the ring that he gae her,
She wis his ain dearest lassie o Binorie.

11. Mony a ane wis at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, aye O Binorie
Bet the bonnie mullert laddie dee't at her green grave makin';
   He's the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 04 Jun 18 - 12:47 PM

Hi,

This version is mysteriously missing the ending-- from the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/198, Disc Side 192, 01:41

"Binorie," sung by David Edwards of 84 High st. Cuninestown, Aberdeenshire. Learned in th Cornhill district about 1880.

1    There wis twa bonnie sisters lived in a glen,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
The miller laddie cam a courtin' them,
    The bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

2    He courted the eldest wi' a gay gowd ring,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
But he courted the youngest wi a far better thing,
    The bonnie miller's lass o Binorie, O.

3    "O sister, O sister, come an' tak a walk,
       Binorie, aye O Binorie,
You'll maybe hear the blackbirds whistle ower his tune,
   Or see the bonnie miller's laddie o Binorie."

4 They walked up and they walked down,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
Till the elder dang the younger into the dam,
   The deep milldam o Binorie.

5. O sister, dear sister, come lend me your hand,
      Binorie, O Binorie
"I'll gie you my yellow gowd, likewise my land,
    And the bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

6. "It wisna for your yellow gowd that I dang ye in,
      Binorie O Binorie
But ye are sae fair and I am sae very din,
   You're the bonnie miller's lass o Binorie."

7. She swimmed up, and she swimmed down,
    Binorie O Binorie,
She sank to the bottom like a stone,
    In the deep milldam o Binorie.

8. The miller's servant girl, she's came out to the dam,
      Binorie, O Binorie
It was for some water to wash the miller's hand,
The bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

9. "O miller, dear miller, there's fish in your dam,
      Binorie, O Binorie
For the white swan he swims rarely up an' down
    In the deep milldam o Binorie."

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 12:12 AM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08715; see also Grieg's newspaper article c. 1910; School of Scottish studies (1952), listen; http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/2937;jsessionid=C2F2CF585A7DF68179A59B4052740214

Curiously there's a different single stanza fragment sung by Mathieson which begins:

There were three sisters lived in a toon,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
The one was she was dark and the other she was brown,
The bonnie millert's lass o Biniorie, O.

This sentiment is reminiscent of the "brown girl" ballads (Child 73 and 295) except the line should be "The one she was fair and the other she was brown." Curiously, this is the motive for murder in most Scottish Child 10 versions (see below). Less dialect was used by Grieg in the same version published in Greig's newspaper column about 1910. The 1931 recording by Carpenter is harder to hear than the 1952 Scottish Studies recording although Mathieson was 20 years younger.

"Binorie" sung by Willie Mathieson b. 1879 of Ellon, Aberdeenshire before 1910 as learned from his second wife's grandfather Sandy Ross.

1    Two sister lassies lived in a toon,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
An' a bonnie miller lad came a courtin' them,
   The bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O.

2    He courted the eldest wi' ribbons an' wi' rings,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
But he courted the youngest wi' far better things,
       The bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O.

3    "O sister, O sister we'll go tae the broom,
       Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
We will hear a' the blackbirds whistle ower their tune,
   An' we'll maybe see the bonnie miller laddie, O."

4 They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
They heard a' the blackbirds whistle ower their tune,
   But they didna see the bonnie miller laddie, O."

5. "O sister, O sister we will go tae the milldam,
       Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
We will see a' the ducks an' the swan she will swim,
An' we'll maybe see the bonnie miller laddie, O."

6. They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
They saw a' the ducks an' the swan she did swim,
But they didna see the bonnie miller laddie, O."

7. They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
The eldest dang the youngest into the dam,
   Intae the dam o Binorie, O.

8. "O sister, O sister lend me your hand,
       Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
An' I'll mak you heir ower a' I command,
An' heir ower the bonnie miller laddie, O."

9. "It wisna for your money that I dang you in,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
It's because you're sae fair an' I'm sae very din,
   So you can droon in the dam o Binorie, O."

10. The miller's servant lassie came oot tae the dam,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
It wis for some water ti wash the miller's hands,
    The bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O.

11. "O miller, O miller, there's fish in your dam,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
It's either a drooned lady or else a silken swan,
    That lies in the dam o Binorie, O."

12. He didna ken her by the rings that he has gi'en her,
      Binorie aye an' Binorie, O,
But weel did he ken her by her bonnie gowden hair
As she lay in teh dams o Binorie, O.

13. Mony was the ane at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O
And the bonnie miller lad died at her grave makin';
   The bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 02:00 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, p. 07734, standard text except the miller doesn't die at the burial. The word "claes" (1st line, last stanza) should mean "cloth" or "garment." The line usually means: Many were there when she was taken out of the dam,

"Binorie" sung by Mrs. James Pirie of Kirkside, Alvah, Banff, Scotland about 1931.

1    There was twa bonnie lassies lived in a booer,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
There was a young man came a courtin' them,
   He was the bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

2    He's courted the eldest wi' mony a braw thing,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
But he courted the youngest wi' a far better thing,
      She was the bonnie miller's lassie o Binorie.

3    "O sister, O sister if you'd tak a walk,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie,
You'd hear all the blackbirds whistle ower their tune,
   An' you'd see the bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O."

4   They walked up, an' so did they doon,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
They heard all the blackbirds whistle ower their tune,
   But they never saw the bonnie miller lad, o Binorie, O."

5.   They walked up, an' so did they doon,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
And the eldest pushed the youngest into the dam,
Into the dam o Binorie, O."

6.   "O sister, O sister if you'll tak my hand,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie,
An' I'll gie you my horses and all my free land,
To pull me oot of the dam o Binorie."

7.   "It wasna for your gold that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
It's because ye are so white love, an' I am so din,
    You're the bonnie miller's lassie o Binorie."

8.   She swimmed up, an' so did she doon,
   Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till she sank to the bottom never to rise again,
The bottom o the dams o Binorie.

9.   The miller's servant lassie came up to the dam,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Twas for water to wash bonnie miller's hand,
    The bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

10.   "O miller, O miller, there's fish into your dam,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
There is a drooned lady or a milk-white swan,
    Sailing up and doon the dams o Binorie."

11.   The miller didna ken her by her bonnie goons o silk,
      Binorie O an' Binorie,
But he did ken her by her middle sae gimp
She was the bonnie miller's lassie o Binorie.

12.   Many were there at her claes aff-takin',
   Binorie, O an' Binorie,
But few, few were there at her green grave makin';
   Except the bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 03:01 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08709. Has "millert" except for the first.

"Binorie," sung by Mrs. William Duncan of Tories, Oyne, Scotland about 1931.

1    Twa Scottish girlies lived in a booer,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
A miller laddie a courtin' them cam,
   By the bonnie milldam o Binorie, O.

2    He courted the elder wi' jewels an' rings,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
He's courted the younger wi' a far better things,
    His ain dearest lassie o Binorie, O.

3    "O sister, O sister will ye tak a walk?
       Binorie, O Binorie,
We'll hear a' the blackbirds whistle ower their tune,
   An' see the bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O."

4 They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
Until the elder one dang the younger in,
To droon in the dam o Binorie, O."

5. "O sister, O sister ye'll reach ti me your han',
       Binorie, O Binorie,
Ye'll get pairt o my siller an' third pairt o my lan',
An' be the millert's lassie o Binorie, O."

6. "It wasna for that that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
That you're sae very fair, an' I sae very dun,
   So ye'll droon in the dam o Binorie, O."

7. She swimmed up, an' she swimmed on,
   Binorie, O Binorie,
An' she sank tee the bottom nae mair tee rise again,
Frae the bonnie milldam o Binorie, O.

8. The miller's servant girl came for water to wash his hands,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
There's somebody in, or else there's a swan,
    In the bonnie milldam o Binorie, O.

9. They fished up an' they fished doon,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
They've taen her oot an' laid her on a stane,
    By the bonnie milldam o Binorie, O."

10. There wasna ane ken her by her yellow hair,
      Binorie O Binorie,
But the bonnie miller he knew the rings he gae her,
She wis his ane dearest lassie o Binorie, O.

13. There wis mony there at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, O Binorie,
The bonnie millert laddie died at her grave makin';
She wis his ane dearest lassie o Binorie, O.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 04:23 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, p. 07736, standard text, a few stanzas missing.

"Binorie" sung by Mrs Jane Lobban of Kennethmont, Aberdeenshire, Scotland about 1931.

1    There wis twa sisters wha lived in a glen,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
The youngest was courted by a nice young man,
   The bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

2    This twa sisters gaed oot for a walk
       Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Twas to hear the blackbirds whistle ower the tune,
   An' see the miller lad o Binorie.

3 They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Bet they didna hear the birdies whistle ower the tune,
   An' they didna see the miller o Binorie.

4. Then the twa sisters stood on a stane,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till the elder she dang the younger in,
Tee teh deep, deep dams o Binorie."

5. "O sister, O sister you'll stretch me yer han',
       Binorie, O Binorie,
An' all my gold and silver will be at your command,
An' the bonnie miller lad o Binorie."

6. "It wisna for yer gold sister, I dang ye in,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
It's because ye're sae very fair, an' I'm sae very din,
   An' ye're courted by the miller o Binorie."

7. The miller's servant lassie cam oot tee the dam,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
It was for some water to wash the miller's hand,
    Twas the bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

8. "O miller, O miller, go fish in your dam,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
For there's a drooned lady or else a white swan,
    In the deep, deep dams o Binorie."

9. Weel did he ken her by her green goon o silk,
      Binorie O an' Binorie,
Bet better did he ken her by her middle, 'twas sae jimp,
Twas the bonnie miller's lass o Binorie.

10. Mony wis there at her aff-claes takin',
   Binorie, O an' Binorie,
But the miller laddie died at her green grave weepin';
    The bonnie miller lad o Binorie.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 08:49 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, p. 07736. Inconsistent dialect. This is not a version from the Greig-Duncan Collection which has 17 versions A-Q.

"Binorie" from Duncan's MSS sung by Mary McWilliam, Grange, 1905, taken down by Jeanie McDonald of Alford.

1    There lived two sisters in yonder ha',
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
They hid bet a lad atween then twa,
   He's the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie.

2    It fell aince upon a day
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
That the auldest ane to the youngest did say,
   At the bonnie milldam o Binorie:

3.   "Oh sister, oh sister will ye gang to the brooms,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till they thrice heard the black birdie changing its tune,
   An' see the mullert lad o Binorie?

4.   They hadna been half an hour at the brooms,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till they thrice heard the black birdie changin its tune,
At the boonie mulldams o Binorie?

5.   They hadna been an hour at the dams,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till they saw their father's fish boats on dry land,
   But they saw nae the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie.

6.   The youngest one stood on a stane,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
The auldest ane dang the youngest in,
To the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

7.   She swam up, an' she swam down,
    Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till she swam back to her sister again,
In the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

8.   "Oh sister, Oh sister, will ye reach me yer glove,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie,
An' I'll make ye heir o my truelove,
The bonnie mullert lad o Binorie."

9.   "It wisna for that that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
It's because ye are fair, an' I am din,
   An' ye'll droon in the dams o Binorie."

10.   Oot cam the auld mullert's daughter to the dams,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
For water to wash her father's hands,
Frae the bonnie mulldams o Binorie.

11.  "Oh father, Oh father, go a-fishing in your dams,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
For there's either a mermaid or a milk-white swan,
    In the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

12.  They socht up, an' they socht down,
    Binorie, O an' Binorie,
But they got naething but a droon'd woman,
    In the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

13.  Some o them kent her by her skin so fair,
      Binorie O an' Binorie,
Bet weel kent the mullert by her bonnie yellow hair,
She's the mullert's bonnie lass o Binorie.

14.  Some o them kent her by her goon o silk,
      Binorie O an' Binorie,
Bet the mullert laddie ken her by her middle so jimp,
'Twas his ane bonnie lass o Binorie.

15.  Mony a ane was at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, O an' Binorie,
An' mony ane muir at her grave makin';
    At the bonnie mulldams o Binorie.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 11:19 PM

Hi,

From the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/M, pp. 05893-05895. This text is very similar to Scott's version, Child C, (Walter Scott, Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, 1803) most of which Scott took from a traditional singer, Miss Charlotte Brookes. The ending which Scott took from Mrs. Brown's version (Child B) is different which shows that the whole was not copied directly from Scott's published version. The similarities are obvious and a recording was not made-- indicating the text was sent in. The last refrain (line 4) does not vary as nearly all the other traditional versions in the Carpenter Collection.

"Binorie" from Mrs Watson Gray, Corner House, East Street, Fochabers, Scotland, 1931. Partly from her sister, Helen Mackaye.

1    There were two sisters sat in a bower,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
There cam a knicht to be their wooer,
      By the bonny milldams o Binorie.

2    He courted the eldest with glove and ring,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
But he lo'ed the youngest abeen a' thing,
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie.

3   The eldest she was vexed sair,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' much envoyed (envied) her sister fair,
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie.

4    The auldest said tee the youngest ane,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
"Will ye see wir father's ships comin' in?"
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie.

5    She's taen her by the lily hand,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' led her doon tee the river strand.
      By the bonny mill-dams of Binorie

6    The youngest stood upon a stane,
      Binorie, O Binorie
The auldest cam an' dang her in,
      By the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

7    "O sister, O sister, reach yer hand,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' ye shall be heir o half my land,
      By the bonnie mill-dams of Binorie."

8    "O sister, I'll not reach my hand,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' I'll be heir o a' yer land.
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

9    "Shame fa' the hand that I should take,
      Binorie, O Binorie
It's twined me an' my world's make,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie."

10   "O sister, sister, reach me your glove,
      Binorie, O Binorie
And sweet William s'all be your love,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie."

11   "Sink on, nor hope for hand or glove,
      Binnorie, O Binnorie
And sweet William s'all better be my love,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

12   "Yer cherry cheeks an' yellow hair
      Binorie, O Binorie
Has garred me gang maiden evermair,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie."

13    Sometimes she sunk, and sometimes she swam,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Until she came tae the miller's dam.
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie."

14    "O father, father, draw your dam!
      Binorie, O Binorie
There's either a mermaid or a milk-white swan,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie."

15    The miller hasted an' drew his dam,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' there he found a droon't woman.
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

16.    Upon her fingers lily white,
      Binorie, O Binorie
The jewel ringd were shining bright,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

17    You couldna see her yellow hair,
      Binorie, O Binorie
For gowd an' pearls a' sae rare.
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie.

18    You couldna see her middle sma,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Her gowden girdle was sae braw,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

19    You couldna see her lily feet,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Her gowden fringes were sae deep,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

20 It was there cam a harper fine,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Wha harped the nobles when they dine,
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie

21    An' when he looked that lady on,
      Binorie, O Binorie
He sighed and made a heavy moan,
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie.

22    He's made a harp of her breistbane,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
Whase soons wad melt a hairt o stane,
      By the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

23    He's ta'en three locks o her yellow hair,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' wi' them strung his harp sae rare.
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie

24    He went intae her father's hall,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' he played his harp before them a',
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

25 At first the harp played lood an' clear,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Fareweel, my father an' mither dear,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

26   Neist when the harp began to sing,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Twas fareweel William, said the string,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

27   An' syne as plain as plain could be,
      Binorie, O Binorie
There sits my sister wha droon't me,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

* * * *

Comments?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 12:49 PM

Hi,

From the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, pp. 07726-07727. This is a third different type of ballad from the Collection. This refrain was reportedly heard by Cunningham in the early 1800s. The opening stanza is similar to the 2nd version known by Willie Mathieson (see post above) in which skin color is immediately established as the murder motive. The playing of the song, "The Swan Swims Bonnie, O" from the harps reveals that the drowned sister was killed by her remaining sister who is then burned.

Twa Sisters- sung by Mrs Mary Stewart Robertson , 6 Auchreddie Road, New Deer, Scotland, 1932, learned from her mother, never saw in print.

1. There wis twa sisters lived in yon glen,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
Een o them wis fair, an' the other wis din,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

2. "Sister dear sister, come an' tak a walk,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"An' ye'll see winders afore ye come bak,"
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

3. "Pit your fit (feet) on yonder marble stone,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' sae slyly she dung her in,
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

4. "Sister O siter, lend me yer richt hand,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"An' I'll mak ye lady o a' my land,
An' I'll stand ahin the door when the lord comes in,"
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

5. "Sister dear sister lend me yer hand,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"I didn't come here to lend you my hand,
It's because you are fair, an' I am din,"
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

6. Noo the millert had a dochter an' her bein' a maid,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' she went oot for water to bake some breid,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

7. "O father there swims in yer dam,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"Either a maid or a milk-white swan,"
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

8. The millert he gaed oot an' lat off his dam
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' they laid her on a thorn for to dry,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

9. The king's best harper he'd been passin' by,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
He's cut off her fingers sae sma',
For to mak pins for evermair,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

10. The king's second best harper he'd been passin' by,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' he's ta'en three tits o her bonnie gowd hair,
For to mak strin gs for his harp evermair
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

11. The third best harper he wis passin' by,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' he's cut oot her breistbane an' a harp he his made,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

12. An' the three went up tee the king's hall door,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' they played an' they played an' they far better played,
An' aye the overcome o' the song,
"The swan swims bonnie, O."

13. Noo the king's dochter she came doon the stairs,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
Says, "Harpers, harpers, change your tune,
An I'll gie you my gowd an' my land,"
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

14. They say, "O fair lady, we canna change wir tune,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"We canna change wir tune, till we be deen,"
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

15. Doon cam her mother and her oldest brother,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
Says, "Harpers harpers, play ower the tune,
An' we'll make ye lords fan (when) ye are done
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

16. They've ta'en her oot an' they've kill't her by fire,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' they've burned her tee the harper's desire,
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 02:02 PM

Hi,

Fragmented short version from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/M, p. 05879. Cf. Willie Mathieson (Child M)

Binorie- sung by Mrs. J. H. Goodall of East Gate, Alford,   Aberdeenshire about 1931.

1    Ther were twa sisters lived in yonder toon,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
A bonnie miller lad came a courtin' o' them,
He was the bonnie miller laddie o Binorie, O.

2    He courted the eldest wi' mony a gowd ring,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
But he courted the youngest wi' a far better thing,
       She was the bonnie miller lassie o Binorie, O.

3    "O sister, O sister we'll go to the broom,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
We'll hear the bonnie blackbirds whistlin ower their tune,
   But they didna see the miller o Binorie, O[1]."

4. "O sister, O sister let's go to the dam,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
An' the eldest knocked the youngest into the dam,
   Into the dam o Binorie, O.

5. "O sister, O sister give me your hand,
       Binorie, O, an' Binorie, O,
I'll gie you all my yellow gowd, I'll gie you all my land,
But I canna gi'e you the miller o Binorie, O."

6. "It wasna for your yellow gowd I dang you in,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
But ye're sae very white an' I'm sae very din,
   An' ye're the miller's bonnie lassie o Binorie, O."

7. The miller's servant lass she ran out to the dam,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
She saw a new droon't lady or a white silken swan,
    Floating up an' doon the dam o Binorie, O.

8. "Miller, miller there's fish in yer dam,
   Binorie, O an' Binorie, O
Or else a new droon't lady or a white silken swan,
Floating up an' doon the dam o Binorie, O."

____________________

1. stanza missing- this line should be where they go try and see the bonnie miller laddie

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 02:46 PM

Hi,

Single stanza with music from James Madison Carpenter MSS Collection (American Folklife Center, Library of Congress / VWML, London) p.04170

Binorie - From Mrs. G. Duncan, melody of the Rev. James B. Duncan family with one stanza of text, c. 1905.

"O sister, O sister will ye go to the dam?
       Binorie, O and Binori,
And see your father's fish boats safely to dry land
And see the miller lad o Binorie?"
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 03:35 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08709, standard text, cf. Child M.

Binorie - sung by Mrs. William Duncan, Tories, Oyne, By Turriff, Aberdeenshire, about 1931.

1    Twa Scottish girlies lived in a booer,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
A miller laddie a courted them cam,
   By the bonnie milldams o Binorie, O.

2    He courted the elder wi jewels and rings,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
He's courted the younger wi far better things,
   His ane dearest lassie o Binorie, O.

3.  "O sister, O sister will ye tak a walk?
       Binorie, O Binorie,
We'll hear the blackbirds whistlin' ower their tune,
   An' see the bonnie miller o Binorie, O.

4   They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
Until the elder one dang the younger in,
To droon in the dams o Binorie, O."

5.   "O sister, O sister, ye'll reach me yer han',
       Binorie, O Binorie,
An' ye'll get pairt o my siller an' third pairt my land,
An' be the millert's lassie o Binorie, O."

6.   "It wasna for that that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
(Because) that ye're sae very fair, an' I sae very dun,
   An' ye'll droon in the dam o Binorie."

7.   She swimmed up an' she swimmed doon,
Binorie, O Binorie,
An' she sank tee the bottom nae mair tee rise again,
Frae the bonnie milldams o Binorie, O."

8.   The miller's servant girl came for water to wash his hands,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
There's somebody in, or else there's a swan,
In the bonnie milldam o Binorie, O."

9.   "They fished up an' they fished doon,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
They've ta'en her out and laid her on a stane,
    By the bonnie milldams o Binorie, O."

10.   They wisna ane kent her by her yellow hair,
      Binorie O an' Binorie,
But the bonnie miller laddie he knew the rings he gae her,
She was his ane dearest lassie o Binorie, O.

10.   There wis mony a ane there at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, O Binorie,
The bonnie millert laddie died at her grave makin';
    She was his ane dearest lassie o Binorie, O.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 04:22 PM

Hi,

This short version is from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/160, Disc Side 154, 01:14. Cf. Child M, standard Scottish text.

Binorie- sung by William McKenzie of Kennethmont, Aberdeenshire, about 1931.

1    There were twa sister who lived in yonder bower,
      Binorie, aye and Binorie, O,
There was a bonnie millet's laddie came courting them there,
   He's the bonnie millet's laddie o Binorie, O.

2 He courted the one with many gold rings,
      Binorie, aye and Binorie, O,
But he courted the other wi far better things,
   She's the bonnie millet's lassie o Binorie, O.

3 "O sister, O sister will you take a walk?
       Binorie, aye and Binorie, O?
You'll hear the bonnie blackbird a whistlin' ower its tune,
   An' ye'll see the bonnie millet's laddie o Binorie, O."

4 So they travelled eastward, an' they travelled west,
      Binorie, aye and Binorie, O,
When the oldest danged the youngest into the dam,
   "You're the bonnie millet's lassie o Binorie, O."

5 "O sister, O sister give me your hand,
       Binorie, O Binorie,
An' I'll give you all my yellow gold, likewise all my land,
   I'm the bonnie millet's lassie o Binorie, O."

6 "It was not for your yellow gold that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, aye and Binorie, O,
Because you're so very white, love, an' I'm so very din,
You're the bonnie millet's lassie o Binorie, O."

7 So she swum eatward an' she swum west,
    Binorie, aye and Binorie, O
Till she sunk to the bottom for to rise no more,
    She's the bonnie millet's lassie o Binorie, O."

8   The miller's servant lass came up to the dam,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
It was for some water to wash the millet's hand,
Frae the bonnie dams o Binorie, O[1]."

9   "O millet, O millet, there's fish in your dam,
       Binorie, aye and Binorie, O,
Or it is a droont lady, or a milk-white swan,
    Swimming up and doon the dams o Binorie, O."

10 Ye widna kent her by her bonnie goon o silk,
       Binorie aye and Binorie, O
But ye'd kent her by her middle was so jimp,
She's the bonnie millet's lassie o Binorie, O.
__________________

1. this line is missing.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 04:36 PM

Using Carpenter and Greig-Duncan you should be able to give a good stab at what the Scottish broadside that they undoubtedly stem from looked like. Then a comparison with the 17th century London version might throw up some interesting insights.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 06:28 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, p. 07725, standard version (Child M type) that Carpenter got from Miss Duncan in 1932.

Binorie- from recitation of Mr. Shivas before 1929 when he died; collected by Miss Duncan of Old Deer, Aberdeenshire.

1. "Sister, O sister, will ye go tee the broom
Binorie O Binorie,
"An' hear the blackbird cheenge her tune,
An' see the bonnie mullert laddie o Binorie?"

2. They hadna been an oor (hour) at the broom,
Binorie, O Binorie,
Till they heard the blackbird cheenge her tune,
But they couldna see the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie.

3. They hadna been an oor (hour) at the broom,
Binorie O Binorie,
Till the elder sister dang the younger in,
Tee the bonnie mulldams o Binorie.

4. She sweemed up and she sweemed doon,
Binorie O Binorie,
Till the elder sister dang the younger in
Tee the bonnie mulldams o Binorie.

5. "Sister O sister, will ye reach out yer han'?
Binorie, O Binorie,
"An' ye's be the heirs o a' my lan's,
An' get the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie."

6. "Sister O sister, will ye reach out yer glove?
Binorie, O Binorie,
"An' ye'll be the heir o my truelove,
An' ye'll get the mullert lad o Binorie."

7. "It wisna for that I dang you in,
Binorie, O Binorie,
"Bet because ye are fair an' I an din,
I'll droon ye in the dams o Binorie."

8. The mullert's eldest daughter gaed oot tee the dams,
Binorie, O Binorie,
To get some water to wash her father's han's.
In the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

9. "O father, O father, get doon tee yer dams,
Binorie, O Binorie,
For up an' doon a droon't woman sweems,
In the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

10. They couldna ken her by her bonnie yellow hair,
Binorie, O Binorie,
But weel kent her by the rings that he gae her,
She wis the bonnie mullert's lass o Binorie.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 10:45 PM

Hi Steve,

There are probably over 40 Scottish versions between Greig/Duncan, Carpenter and the few School of Scottish Studies. So far there are three distinct forms, two of which relate to the English (James Smith) of the mid-1600s. I thought you would be interested in the dark skin (din, dun, brown) murder motive which relates to Child 73 and 295.

Still waiting on word from the Bodleian Library on Rimbault's 1656 broadside from their head archivist after an initial search by a staff person failed to locate any trace of a broadside titled, "The Miller's Melody," or, "The Miller and the King's Daughter."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 07 Jun 18 - 11:55 PM

Hi,

Fragment from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08706. Has a variation of Mrs. Brown's first refrain.

Binorie (Two Sisters)- sung by Mrs. B.D. Cameron of probably Aberdeenshire collected by Alexander Keith before 1931.

    There was two sisters lived in a town
       Edinborough, Edinborough
There came a knight to be there wooer
They're the grey millert's lassie o Binorie, O.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 12:11 AM

Hi,

Two stanza fragment with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08704

Twa Sisters- sung by Carrie Lindsay of unknown location, probably Aberdeenshire, collected by Carpenter before 1931.

1    There were twa sisters in a toon,
      Binorie, aye[1] and Binorie, O.
And a bonnie miller laddie cam a-courtin' them,
   The bonnie miller laddie o Binorie, O.

2    He courted the younger ane wi' ribbons and wi' rings,
       Binorie, aye and Binorie, O.
He's courted the other wi' far better things,
   He's her bonnie miller laddie o Binorie, O.
__________________

1. written "ey"

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 12:30 AM

Hi,

The first of two US Carpenter versions of Child 10 is from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/7/1/C, pp. 10635-10636 (my title). It follows Child Y from Parsons, 1770. The end refrain is shortened in stanza 3 because of an extra line

Bow Down- from the singing of Becky F. Jones of Cary, North Carolina c. 1938.

1. "O sister, O sister let's take a walk,
Bow down, Bow down
O sister, O sister let's take a walk,
The bough was bent for me,
O sister, O sister let's take a walk,
To see those little ships floating about."
REFRAIN: Be true, true, be true my love,
My love will be true to me.

2. So they walked out on salty brim,
Bow down, Bow down
They walked out on salty brim,
Where the bough was bent for me,
They walked out on salty brim,
Where the oldest pushed the young one in.
REFRAIN: Be true, true, be true my love,
My love will be true to me.

3. "O sister, O sister, lend me your hand,
Bow down, bow down,
Sister, O sister, lend me your hand,
She bent and she bowed unto me,
Sister, O sister, lend me your hand,
I neither will lend you my hand not my glove,
But I will marry your own true love,
My love will be true to me.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 12:43 AM

Hi,

Single stanza with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/I, p. 11974

Twa Sisters- sung by Mrs. T Durward, no location probably Aberdeenshire, c. 1931

1    There were twa sisters in a ha',
      Binorie, o and Binorie.
And they had a taylor atween them twa,
   He's the bonnie millert laddie o Binorie.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 12:18 PM

Hi,

There are three more versions of Child 10 to post from Carpenter's collection. I've been wading though Child's version A-Z and trying to figure out the best way to group like versions. The difficulty is with the refrains and forms since some refrains vary with nearly identical text. There's also the resuscitation stanzas (making a harp/fiddle from the dead sister's body/hair) which are not present in the standard Scottish and English/American "Bow down" versions.

Perhaps someone can help me confirm the source of Child Rc, titled The Barkshire Tragedy (yes, this is Child 10) which according to Child is:

"Rc. 'The Scouring of the White Horse,' p. 158, from Berkshire, as heard by Mr Hughes from his father."

What's confusing is Hughes gives the source as "a ruddy-faced, smock-frocked man, who, with his eyes cast up to the tent-top, droned through his nose the following mournful ditty:"

La, "The Drowned Lady" also from The Scouring of the White Horse, is also attributed to Hughes' father (John Hughes) who learned it as a boy in Wales at Ruthyn also Ruthin.

Hughes grew up in Berkshire (now Oxfordshire). This is another difficult detail I'm trying to resolve.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 02:34 PM

Hi,

I'm also looking for suggestions of ways to categorize the different versions of Child 10. Bronson has five music groups A-D with group B divided into six sub-groups. Group D has some of the "Swans Swim so Bonnie" refrains.

Listing all the different versions with its own letter designation like Child did is impractical since there are hundreds of versions.

This is what I have so far:

A. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" from "Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation," London by Dr. James Smith (Editions 1655, 1656, 1658-- only 1658 verified) Child A, L.
    a. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" from " Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation" 1655 from Mr. Smith (reprinted 1656, 1658, 1817 Facetiae edition)
    b. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" unconfirmed broadside "printed for Francis Grove, 1656," by Mr. Smith; text reprinted in Notes and Queries, 1st S., v, 591 by Edward F. Rimbault, 1852.
    c. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" from 1656 edition "Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation" as reprinted in Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 315, 1806. Has several emendations presumably made by Jamieson.
    d. "The Miller and the King's Daughter," as from Mr. (James) Smith "Wit Restor'd, 1658, " p. 51," in the reprint of 1817, p. 153.
    e. "The Miller and the King's Daughters," Wit and Drollery, ed. 1682, p. 87.
    f. "Damnd Mill-Dam" as heard by Anna Seward of Derbyshire about 1749, Child L from Anna Seward to Walter Scott, April 25-29, 1802: Letters addressed to Sir Walter Scott, I, No 54, Abbotsford.
    g. "The Miller's Melody" dated c. 1790 by G.A.C. from Notes and Queries, 1st S., v, 316, 1852, Child La.
    h. "The Drowned Lady," from Thomas Hughes' father (John Hughes of Oxfordshire) learned as a boy in Wales c.1800 published in "The Scouring of the White Horse," p. 161, 1859, Child Lb.

B. "The Twa Sisters" or "The Cruel Sister" Scottish, from Anna Gordon Brown of Aberdeenshire, learned c. 1760, written down in 1783. Child B, three refrains.
    a. 'The Twa Sisters,' Jamieson-Brown Manuscript, fol. 39, 1783, Child Ba.
    b. 'The Cruel Sister,' Wm. Tytler's Brown Manuscript, No 15, 1783, Child Bb.
    c. 'The Cruel Sister,' Abbotsford Manuscript, "Scottish Songs," fol. 21, c.1803, Child Bc.
    d. 'The Twa Sisters,' Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 48, 1806, Child Bd.
    e. "The Cruel Sister," Scott's Minstrelsy, II, 143 (1802). Composite of Mrs. Brown's text and an Irish text recreated by Scott, Child C with Binnorie refrains.
    f. "The Two Fair Sisters" taken from an unknown singer (based on or similar to Scott's Child C/Mrs. Brown's version) probably from Nithsdale/Galloway before 1810 by Allan Cunningham in his The Songs of Scotland, Ancient and Modern: with an introduction, Volume 2, 1825.
    g. "Three Sisters." From the recitation of Mrs. Johnston, a North-country Scottish lady; Kinloch's Manuscripts, II, 49; 1826 or later; Child D
    h. Twa Sisters- taken from Mrs. Eleonora Sharpe of Dumfriesshire about c1798 from C.K. Sharpe's Ballad Book, No. X, p. 30, 1824; Child E.

C. "The King in the North Country" or "Bow Down" English and American, earliest date 1770 Child Y from Parsons near Kent. Refrains include "Bow Down" "Balance unto me," and "I'll be true to my love," similar form as B, first line repeated twice with three refrains.
    a. "There was a king lived in the North Country." Communicated to Percy, April 7. 1770, and April 19, 1775, by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent from a spinning-wheel operator; Child Y.

D. "Binnorie (Binorie)" and "Bonnie Milldams o Binnorie" Scottish, quatrain form with resuscitation stanzas

E. "Binnorie (Binorie)" and "Bonnie Milldams o Binnorie" Scottish, quatrain form without resuscitation stanzas; the second refrain is variable.

* * * *

Nearly all the Carpenter versions are E while two are D, and one has a different refrain. Almost all North American version are C. Although Child C has the Binnorie refrains established in 1778 by Pinkerton it's based mostly on B sung by Mrs. Brown-- the refrains were added by Scott from a 14 stanza Irish version which unfortunately can't be found in its original form. I've added Child L (English) to Child A (English) although they are somewhat different.

Suggestions welcomed,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 03:12 PM

Richie, both songs appear in the book as cited.

The book looks like fiction. Thomas Hughes is the author, but "his" father calls him "Richard."

It is written like fiction, with plenty of conversations.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 04:05 PM

Hi Lighter,

I know Child asked Hughes his source(s) and got the info on Child La. "The Drowned Lady" from Hughes who said he got it from his father (at least some of it).

I'll just assume then that Child Rc. is also from Hughes' father (since Child says so) and that Hughes source in the book is probably fiction.

Hughes grew up in Berkshire so it makes sense,

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 04:39 PM

Not having looked in any detail myself, but your divisions/categories look fine from here.

>>>>>>Bronson has five music groups A-D with group B divided into six sub-groups.<<<<< should read 'A-E' presumably. It might be worth stating clearly the differences, if any, between your subgroups and Bronson's.


BTW the version I sing uses the tune and chorus of Bronson's 26 which comes from a few miles from where I live. AS for the text I make it up as I go along based on the many versions I've come across.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 05:43 PM

> AS for the text I make it up as I go along based on the many versions I've come across.

That's the way to do it!

I sing two different versions, one with the multi-repeat "bow down" format, Richie's C, and one with the "Bonny bows of London refrain similar to Child F, but with different verses, which I got from Pete Nalder. I have mainly different sets of words for them but they get mixed up a bit.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 10:01 AM

Hi,

Here's how the Child versions (and a few other versions) of Child 10 are organized now. There are two archaic versions from America with flower refrains which I may add as a separate letter heading. The categories (letter designations) either have resuscitation stanzas (dead sister's body/hair is made into an instrument and she is resuscitated and speaks through the instrument) or they don't-- and are labeled as such.

A. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" with resuscitation stanzas. From second edition, 1656, of "Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation," London by Dr. James Smith ("Musarum Deliciæ" reprinted "Wit Restor'd 1658-- only 1658 verified, reprinted in 1817) Child A, L with resuscitation stanzas.
    a1. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" from " Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation" 1656 from Mr. Smith (reprinted 1658 "Wit Restor'd", and again in 1817 Facetiae edition)
    a2. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" unconfirmed broadside "printed for Francis Grove, 1656," by Mr. Smith; text reprinted in Notes and Queries, 1st S., v, 591 by Edward F. Rimbault, 1852.
    a3. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" from 1656 edition "Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation" as reprinted in Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 315, 1806. Has several emendations presumably made by Jamieson.
    a4. "The Miller and the King's Daughter," as from Mr. (James) Smith reprint in "Wit Restor'd, 1658, " p. 51," in the reprint of 1817, p. 153. Sir John Mennes, "Wit Restor'd In severall select poems Not formerly publisht" (London: R. Pollard, N. Brooks, and T. Dring, 1658), pp. 51-54:
    a5. "The Miller and the King's Daughters," Wit and Drollery, ed. 1682, p. 87.
    b. "Damnd Mill-Dam" as heard by Anna Seward of Derbyshire about 1749, Child L from Anna Seward to Walter Scott, April 25-29, 1802: Letters addressed to Sir Walter Scott, I, No 54, Abbotsford.
    c. "The Miller's Melody" dated c. 1790 by G.A.C. from Notes and Queries, 1st S., v, 316, 1852, Child La.
    d. "The Drowned Lady," from Thomas Hughes' father (John Hughes of Oxfordshire) c.1800 from The Scouring of the White Horse, p. 161, 1859, Child Lb.

B. "The Twa Sisters" or "The Cruel Sister" with resuscitation stanzas. Scottish, from Anna Gordon Brown of Aberdeenshire, learned c. 1760, written down in 1783. Child B, three refrains
    a1. "The Twa Sisters," Jamieson-Brown Manuscript, fol. 39, 1783, Child Ba.
    a2. "The Cruel Sister," William Tytler's Brown Manuscript, No 15, 1783, Child Bb.
    a3. "The Cruel Sister," Abbotsford Manuscript, "Scottish Songs," fol. 21, c.1803, Child Bc.
    a4. "The Twa Sisters," Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 48, 1806, Child Bd.
    b. "The Cruel Sister," Scott's Minstrelsy, II, 143 (1802). Composite of Mrs. Brown's text and an Irish text recreated by Scott, Child C with Binnorie refrains.
    c. "The Two Fair Sisters" taken from an unknown singer (based on or similar to Scott's Child C/Mrs. Brown's version) probably from Nithsdale/Galloway before 1810 by Allan Cunningham in his The Songs of Scotland, Ancient and Modern: with an introduction, Volume 2, 1825.
    d. "Three Sisters." From the recitation of Mrs. Johnston, a North-country Scottish lady; Kinloch's Manuscripts, II, 49; 1826 or later; Child D.
    e. "Twa Sisters," taken from Mrs. Eleonora Sharpe of Dumfriesshire about c1798 from C.K. Sharpe's Ballad Book, No. X, p. 30, 1824; Child E.

C. "The King in the North Country" or "Bow Down" without resuscitation stanzas. English and American, earliest date 1770 Child Y from Parsons near Kent. Refrains include "Bow Down" "Balance unto me," and "I'll be true to my love," similar form as B, first line repeated twice with three refrains.
    a. "There was a king lived in the North Country." Communicated to Percy, April 7. 1770, and April 19, 1775, by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent from a spinning-wheel operator; Child Y.
    b. "The Twa Sisters," no date but after 1826, no title, taken from Kinloch Manuscripts, VI, p. 89, Child S.
    c. "The Three Sisters," by Seleucus, a Lancashire ballad, from Notes and Queries, 1st S., vi, 102; dated July 31, 1852, Child Ra.
    d. "The Barkshire Tragedy." From Thomas Hughes 'The Scouring of the White Horse,' p. 158, 1859. According to Child, it's "from Berkshire, as heard by Mr Hughes from his father (John Hughes)" Child Rc.
    e. "Bo down (Bow Down)." Written down for John Francis Campbell, Esq., Nov. 7, 1861, at Wishaw House, Lancashire, by Lady Louisa Primrose (quatrain form, two refrains). Published in Popular Tales of the West Highlands, Campbell 1862, Volume 4 page 125, Child Rb.
    f. "The Two Sisters," dated c. 1880 from ladies in New York, and by them from a cousin, Child Z.

D. "Binnorie (Binorie)" and "Bonnie Milldams o Binnorie" also "Bonny Bows o London" and "Norham, down by Norham" with resuscitation stanzas. Scottish, quatrain form, named after refrains.
    a. "The Twa Sisters" Scottish c. 1790. Copied Oct. 26, 1861, by J. F. Campbell, Esq., from a collection made by Lady Caroline Murray of Richmond, Surrey (b. 1791); traced by her to an old nurse, and beyond the beginning of this century. Refrains are varied from standard "Binorie" refrains, Child Q.
    b. "Cruel Sister" composite of Irish tradition and Mrs. Brown's Scottish version recreated by Scott published in his Minstrelsy, 1802 with resuscitation stanzas, Child C.
    c. "There Were Three Sisters" taken from I. Goldie (J. Goldie?) of Paisley in March, 1825. From Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 147, Child H.
    d. "The Bonny Bows o London" from the recitation of Agnes Lyle, Kilbarchan, 27th July, 1825. From ESPB, volume 1, 1882 as from Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 383. Child, Version F.
    e. "The Twa Sisters." From the recitation of M. Kinnear, the editor's niece from Mearnshire, north of Scotland on 23d August, 1826. From Kinloch Manuscripts, B, 425. 1827, p.136, Child I.
    f. "Binnorie" fragment from Mrs. Lindores of Kelso Roxburghshire, c.1926, Mr. G.R. Kinloch's papers, Kinloch Manuscripts, II, 59, Child K.
    g. "The Bonny Bows of London," taken down from an old woman from north Scotland. From Ancient Ballads and Songs of the North of Scotland, p. 128, Buchan, 1828, Child Oa.
    h. "Norham, Down By Norham" dated c.1830 as communicated by Mr. Thomas Lugton, of Kelso, Roxburghshire, as sung by an old cotter-woman fifty years ago; learned by her from her grandfather; Child W.
    i. "Benorie" Campbell MS from Scottish highlands, c.1860, John Francis Campbell was author of "Popular Tales of the West Highlands;" Child V.
    j. The Bonny Bows o' London- from the singing of an old woman in Buckie, (Enzie, Banffshire,) who died in 1866. From Traditional Ballad Airs, edited by W. Christie, I, 42; text modified from Buchan's Ballads of the North of Scotland; Child Ob.

E. "Binnorie (Binorie)" and "Bonnie Milldams o Binnorie" without resuscitation stanzas. Scottish, quatrain form; named after refrains, the second refrain is usually variable. Early date 1778 Pinkerton.
    a. 'Binnorie" partially traditional from Edinburgh, from Pinkerton's Scottish Tragic Ballads, p. 72 MS dated 1778, published 1781, Child N.
    b. "Binnorie," fragment from Dr. Joseph Robertson's Note-Book, January 1, 1830, p. 7, Child X.
    c. "Binorie, O an' Binorie," from recitation at Old Deir (Deer), 1876, by Mrs. A. F. Murison; manuscript, p. 79, Child M.

F. "Hey Nanny, O" and "Swans Swim Bonnie" with resuscitation stanzas. Irish-Scottish, quatrain form, named after refrains. Some versions have and early skin color stanza.
    a. "Cruel Sister" Irish dated c. 1790, a composite using a fourteen stanzas transcription from the recitation of an old Irish woman by Miss Charlotte Brooke. Sent to Scott by J. C. Walker, Esq. the ingenious historian of the Irish bards, Child C.
    b. "There Were Three Sisters"- from Mrs. King of Kilbarchan. Renfrewshire c. 1825; Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 104, Child G.
    c. "The Swan Swims Bonnie O" unknown informant, Scotland, 1827, Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 245; Child Pa.
    d. "The Swan Swims Bonnie O" fragment from unknown informant, Scotland, Motherwell's Minstrelsy, Appendix, p. xx. 1827; Child Pb.
    e. "The Miller's Melody" from an 1870 issue of Notes and Queries, 4th S., V, 23, from the north of Ireland; Child J.
    f . "Hey Ho, my Nancy Oh!" Fragment contributed by T.B. as sung by James Moylan, a gardener, from Petrie No. 688, c. 1902.

G. "Hey Nanny, O" and "Swans Swim Bonnie" without resuscitation stanzas. Irish-Scottish, quatrain form, named after refrains.
    a. "The Swim Swom Bonny" sung by Nicholas W. Butcher of Wetzel County, WV, before 1935, Bayard, published Barry BFSSNE.

H. "Cold blows the Wind," or "Wind and the rain" Irish, American
    a. "Sister, Dear Sister," no informant given, fragment from Allingham's Ballad Book, p. xxxiii; from Ireland, 1865, Child T.
    b. "The Wind and Rain (Two Sisters)" sung by Rev. J. L. Sims of Pageton, WV, on October 13, 1931 as collected by Buchanan; Barry BFSSNE.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 10:23 AM

Hi Richard and Steve,

Steve, should be Bronson A-E :) Your version by Charles Lolley of Driffield, Yorkshire was published in JFSS 1906, do you known when Kidson collected it?

I heard back from several staff members at Bodleian about Rimbault's broadside. The last was Jo Maddocks; Assistant Curator of Rare Books;
Weston Library (Bodleian Libraries), Broad Street, Oxford, OX1 3BG who said:

What a muddle. At any rate, it doesn’t sound as though Gregory himself saw a copy of the broadside, which relieves us of the worry that there might be a copy somewhere in the Bodleian that we don’t know about! I think if the broadside ever did exist, it’s safe to say that there aren’t any recorded copies now.

Maddocks showed it to several experts at the Bodleian who referred her to their 1658 copy of Wit Restor'd at the Bodelian. See Lighter's post of that text above. See also the link to Gregory's lines about the broadside in Victorian Songhunters, 2006-- above.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 10:48 AM

Hi Steve,

Kidson titled Lolley's version "I'll Be True To My Love (Berkshire Tragedy)" which he collected in 1892. The reference to Berkshire Tragedy is to Thomas Hughes version named "Barkshire Tragedy" that Child said was learned from Hughes father, John Hughes of Wales, then Berkshire. Hughes version was published in "Scouring of the White Horse," 1859 and again by Broadwood in 1893.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 11:27 AM

Hi,

The next Carpenter version of Child 10 is James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, pp. 08719-08720. A better recording is found online here:
https://www.scotslanguage.com/articles/view/id/5156 as recorded by Alan Lomax in 1951. Lomax notes:
John Strachan was a well-to-do farmer at the Aberdeenshire farm of Crichie, near Fyvie, who had a wonderful fund of old ballads and bothy ballads. In 1951 Hamish Henderson took American folklorist Alan Lomax to record Strachan's singing. Strachan was born in 1875 and died in 1958. From the Alan Lomax Collection at the American Folklife Center, Library of Congress.

Carpenter gives two stanzas with music (c. 1931)- the first stanza has changed in the 1951 recording and the second is missing.

(The Two Sisters) Binnorie O Binnorie- sung by John Strachan of Aberdeenshire, c. 1931 and again in 1951,

There were two sisters lived in a glen[1]
Binnorie o Binnorie,
And the bonnie millert laddie cam a–coortin o them,
By the bonnie mill dams o Binnorie.

[He courted the elder wis diamonds and rings[2],
Binnorie o Binnorie,
He courted the younger wis far better things,
By the bonnie mill dams o Binnorie.]

Oh sister, oh sister, will ye take a walk
Roond be the dams o Binnorie,
For to hear the blackbird whistle o’er its notes
By the bonnie mill dams o Binnorie.

They walked up and sae did they doon
And roon be the dams o Binnorie,
Till the elder stepped aside and dang the younger in
To the deep mill dams o Binnorie.

Oh sister, oh sister stretch oot yer hand
Binnorie o Binnorie,
And I’ll gie ye my gold and a fifth o my land
For the bonny millert laddie o Binnorie.

It wisna for yer money that I dang you in
Binnorie o Binnorie,
It’s you being so fair love and I so very grim[3]
For the bonny millert laddie o Binnorie.

Oh millert oh millert rin oot yer dam
Binnorie o, Binnorie,
For there’s some grand lady or some deid swan
Floatin up and doon the dams o Binnorie.

__________

1. There were two sisters lived in a booer[bower]
Binnorie o Binnorie,
And a knight cam tae be their wooer,
By the bonnie mill dams o Binnorie.

2. stanza missing from the 1951 recording

3. usually "din"

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 12:02 PM

Hi,

Fragment with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/D, p. 11671.

Two Sisters- sung by Alex Troup (1851- 1939) of Overton, district of Insch, Aberdeenshire; brother of Isaac Troup, both contributed to Greig-Duncan c. 1908, will cross reference.

1. There were two sisters lived in a booer[bower]
Binorie o, an' Binorie,
A bonnie millert lad cam a-courtin' o them,
Twas the bonnie millert laddie o Binorie.

2. He courted the elder wis jewels and wis rings,
Binorie o, an' Binorie,
But he courted the younger wis far better things,
She was the bonnie millert's lassie o Binorie.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 12:24 PM

hi,

The last Carpenter version of Twa Sisters is James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, p. 07747: American, categorized under standard English versions without resuscitation stanzas, my C (form Child Y, 1770), both miller and sister are hanged.

The Two Sisters (Twa Sisters)- sung by Viola Cook of Whitesburg, Kentucky about 1938.

1. There lived an old lord by the northern sea,
Bowee down!
There lived an old lord by the northern sea,
Bow, and balance me,
There lived an old lord by the northern sea,
And he had daughters one, two, three.
I'll be true to my love,
If my love'll be true to me.

2. A young man came a courting there,
And he made the choice of the youngest fair.

3. He bought the youngest a beaver hat;
And the eldest sister didn't like that.

4   As they walked down to the water's brim,
The eldest sister pushed the youngest in.

5 "O sister, dear sister lend me your hand,
And you may have my house and land."

6   She floated down to the miller's dam;
The miller drew her safe to land.

7 And off her fingers took five gold rings,
Then into the water he plunged her again.

8 The miller was hanged on a gallows so high,
The eldest sister there close by.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 05:27 PM

Thanks, Richie.
Charles Lolley was from Howden in the East Riding of Yorkshire, but had moved to Leeds by the time Kidson came across him. He already knew some songs himself but must have done some actual collecting on behalf of Kidson in the East Riding. It's a pity Lolley's records haven't survived. Several of my friends have been researching Kidson's work and next time I see them I'll ask about Lolley's work. Where did your date of 1892 come from?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 02:30 PM

Hi,

This is one of the oldest American versions and has been traced to Big Sammy Hicks (1753-1835) from three separate North Carolina sources-- one is from Jane Hicks Gentry who sang her version for Sharp in 1916 (Two Sisters, Sharp A, EFSSA). The chorus: Gilley flower gent the roseberry, is derived from (Gilleyflower gentle, rosemary) which A. G. Gilchrist wrote about in "A Note on the 'Herb' and Other Refrains":

The curious "Jury flower gent the rose berry" of one of Mr. Sharp's Appalachian songs, though at first sight a much decayed form, probably comes quite near the original in sound if not sense, for" gelofir gent " is a description, c. 1500, of the gilliflower. The line runs, in more intelligible versions, Gilliflower gentle and rosemary. The line "Gilliflower gentle or rosemary" occurs in a lyric by Sir Thomas Philipps (temp. Henry VIII) in company with "Marjoram gentle or lavender" and "Camomile, borage, or savory.

If Big Sammy got the ballad when he lived along Tuckahoe Creek (St. James River, Goochland County) in Virginia, as it would seem, the ballad would date to the first part of the 1700s in Virginia through his source.

This version is from Nora Hicks of Mast's Gap, North Carolina who got the ballad from Fanny Hicks (1837–1914), who was Big Sammy's granddaughter on her father's side.

The Two Sisters, Variant 1- sung by Mrs. Nora Hicks. It was copied down by Addie Hicks and given to Abrams by Edith Walker about 1939. The correct refrain was written out only in stanza 12.

1. There was two sisters loved one man,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry,
The youngest one he loved first,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

2. As they were walking by the brook,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
The old one pushed the young one in
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

3. Sister, sister give me your hand,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
And you may have all my land
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

4. Sister, sister give me your glove
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
And you may have the one I love
Till the jury hangs over the Roseberry.

5. She floated up she floated down
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry,
She floated in to the miller's pond,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

6. Out run the miller with his long hook,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
He drew this fair woman out of the brook,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

7. It ain't a fish nor it ain't a swan
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
He picked her up and threw her back,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

8. She floated up and she floated down
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
She floated in to the harper's pond
Till the jury hangs over the Rose Berry

9. Out run the harper with his long hook
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
He drew this fair woman out at the brook
Till the jury hangs over the Rose berry.

10. It ain't a fish nor it ain't a swan,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
It is a fair woman in my pond,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

11. What will we make out of her breast bone so fine,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry?
We will make us a new fiddle to play on
All the jury hangs over the roseberry.

12. What will we make out of her fingers so small
Gilley flower gent the roseberry,
We will make us some new screws to play on
Till the jury hangs over the Rose

13. What will we make out of her hair so long
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry,
we will make us some new strings to play on
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

14. Up then spoke the first string,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
Was my sister that pushed me in,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

15. Up then spoke the next string,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry,
It was the miller who threw me back
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

16. The miller was hung on the gallows so high,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry,
The sister was burnt at a stake there by,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

* * * *

The importance is that this is a variant of the old English version of Parsons 1770 near Kent but with an archaic chorus and resuscitation stanzas. Nora Hicks version is virtually unknown and was taken from the Abrams Collection at App State in MS form. It's considerably better than Jane Gentry's version that she got from her grandfather Council Harmon probably in the late 1800s. Council lived with his grandfather Big Sammy at Beech Mountain when he was a child after his father died when a tree fell on him when Council was about 8 and his mother, Sabra was widowed and unable to provide for her four small children. Later in life, Council (Counce) lived with Gentry for a time. He was one of the main sources of ballads and Jack tales in the family.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 03:29 PM

Hi,

Steve, the original MS is here with original title dated 1892 (by Roud, I presume, the MS is not dated). It also says Lolley got his version from a Driffield woman (East Riding, Yorkshire)
https://www.vwml.org/search?q=RN8%20lolley&is=1

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:07 PM

I know it is not a Carpenter version, but I know of another American version that mentions making a harp out of the girls breastbone which is not on your website yet:
The Two Sisters - Charles S. Brink

Sung by Charles Scott Brink near Smicksburg, Indiana County, Pennsylvania, on August 12, 1948 for Samuel Preston Bayard.

The recording was made available on Youtube a few years ago:
Samuel Preston Bayard folklore recordings- Charles S. Brink #4
The song begins at 10:12 in the video.

The "By Noling" refrain sounds to me like it may have originally been "Binnorie" or even "By Norham", it appears to be related to the most common Scottish form of the ballad.
The repetition of each line to make a four-line stanza with the refrain is also seen in the "Wind and Rain" variants which have a similar ending with the harp playing a tune that is the ballad itself.

Here's the Roud entry:
https://www.vwml.org/record/RoudFS/S372502

I wrote down the transcription of Mr. Brink's version as it was displayed in the video:

There was two sisters lived in the west,
By Noling, by Noling,
There was two sisters lived in the west,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

Along came a young lord and courted both of them,
By Noling, by Noling,
Along came a young lord and courted both of them,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The oldest one he gave a silver fan,
By Noling, by Noling,
The oldest one he gave a silver fan,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The youngest one he gave a gold ring,
By Noling, by Noling,
The youngest one he gave a gold ring,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The youngest one he intended for his bride,
By Noling, by Noling,
The youngest one he intended for his bride,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

These two sisters was crossing a stream,
By Noling, by Noling,
These two sisters was crossing a stream,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The oldest one she pushed the youngest in,
By Noling, by Noling,
The oldest one she pushed the youngest in,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

O sister, O sister, give to me your hand,
By Noling, by Noling,
O sister, O sister, give to me your hand, --
You may have the young lord and all of his command,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

No, sister, no, sister, I won't give you my hand,
For I can have the young lord and all of his command,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

She sank and she swam till she came to the miller's dam,
By Noling, by Noling,
She sank and she swam till she came to the miller's dam,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The miller he caught her on his hook,
By Noling, by Noling,
The miller he caught her on his hook,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

They took her breastbone and made a harp of it,
By Noling, by Noling,
They took her breastbone and made a harp of it,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The first tune he played on't was called the Silver Lea,
By Noling, by Noling,
The first tune he played on't was called the Silver Lea,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

A similar variant was also recorded by Alton Chester Morris from Mrs. C. S. MacClellan of High Springs, Florida in June 1937:
The Two Sisters - Mrs. C. S. MacClellan

Here's the Library of Congress reference:
https://www.loc.gov/item/afc9999005.5234

This variant of "The Twa Sisters" had some currency in Florida, but without the harp as far as I know.

Here's the text as Mrs. C. S. MacClellan sang it:

There was two sisters a-living in the East,
By Holding, by Holding,
There was two sisters a-living in the East,
Down by the waters rolling.

There was a young man and he courted them both,
By Holding, by Holding,
There was a young man and he courted them both,
Down by the waters rolling.

He loved the youngest as he loved his life,
By Holding, by Holding,
He loved the youngest as he loved his life,
Down by the waters rolling.

He gave the youngest a gay gold ring,
By Holding, by Holding,
He gave the youngest a gay gold ring,
Down by the waters rolling.

He gave the oldest a gay gold pin,
By Holding, by Holding,
He gave the oldest a gay gold pin,
Down by the waters rolling.

One day they was crossing a stream,
By Holding, by Holding,
One day they was crossing a stream,
Down by the waters rolling.

The oldest pushed the youngest in,
By Holding, by Holding,
The oldest pushed the youngest in,
Down by the waters rolling.

First she'd sink and then she'd swim,
By Holding, by Holding,
First she'd sink and then she'd swim,
Down by the waters rolling.

Sister, O sister, lend me your hand,
By Holding, by Holding,
Sister, O sister, lend me your hand,
Down by the waters rolling.

You can have the man and his house and his land,
By Holding, by Holding,
You can have the man and his house and his land,
Down by the waters rolling.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:28 PM

Hi,

TY, for the Bayard version. I have transcribed two other Bayard ballads from youtube. Many of Bayard's versions are excellent. See also his Irish version of Twa Sisters published by Barry in BFSSNE vol. 9 and 10. Bayard and Barry were two of the top New England (Bayard from PA) folk song authorities. Barry also published the first complete version of Twa Sister with "Wind and rain" refrain (1931), another distinct form with resuscitation stanzas. Barry wrote in 1935: "This version of The Two Sisters is unique: it is perhaps the most primitive that has survived in English tradition." He also labeled the Child versions of Twa Sisters to EE (failing to mention what Child AA and BB were).

Here's the oldest extant "Rolling" version from Georgia:

"Down by the Waters Rolling." Sung by Mrs. G. A. Griffin, learned in Georgia from her father before 1877, collected in Florida in 1937 by Morris.

There was two sisters living in the East,
By rolling, by rolling;
There was two sisters living in the East
Down by the waters rolling.

They were both courted by the young landlord,
By rolling, by rolling;
They were both courted by the young landlord,
Down by the waters rolling.

He gave the oldest a gay gold ring,
By rolling, by rolling;
He gave the oldest a gay gold ring,
Down by the waters rolling.

He gave the youngest a gay gold pin,
By rolling, by rolling;
He gave the youngest a gay gold pin,
Down by the waters rolling.

The eldest one shoved the youngest one in,
By rolling, by rolling;
"Sister, oh Sister, oh hand me your hand,
Down by the waters rolling."

"You can have the landlord and all his land,
By rolling, by rolling;
You can have the landlord and all his land,
Down by the waters rolling."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:36 PM

That's interesting, all of these "Down by the waters rolling" variants are very similar to each other.
There doesn't seem to be a sound recording of Mrs. Griffin's "Two Sisters" on the floridamemory site, even though many other of Griffin's excellent ballads are available there.

I also remember a recording of Ellen Stekert singing a New York version that also had the harp in it:
Songs of a New York Lumberjack

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:53 PM

Hi,

I suppose they should represent a specific sub-genre of Twa Sisters which I was planning on doing - and now will. Here's Ellen Stekert's text (to the link you provided).

Two Sisters- from Mr. Ezra ("Fuzzy") Barhight, age eighty-one, of Cohocton, New York. Fuzzy reported having learned this version from his mother; dated pre-1920.

There was two sisters lived in the West,
Bincely and binoly,
Was two sisters lived in the West,
Down where the waters is a-rolling.

There came a young lord and he courted them both,
There came a young lord and he courted them both.

To the youngest he gave her his heart and hand,
To the eldest he gave her a gay gold ring.

As these two sisters was crossing a bridge,
The youngest she pushed her sister in.

Oh, sister, oh, sister, give me your hand,
You can have the young lord and all of his land.

But she floated down to the miller's dam,
And the miller with his hook, well, he pulled her in.

Of her breastbone they made a harp,
Bineely and binoly,
Of her breastbone they made a harp,
Down where the waters is a-rolling.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 10:36 PM

Hi,

Anyone know the source of this version, I've written out the first two stanzas. Can't hear what he says at the beginning. There's a recording here:

http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/89116;jsessionid=41264C4799537906C991AD093A7B60FE

The Bonny Bonny Bows of London- sung by Brian Miller probably when he was a student at Glasgow University in 1970.

There was twa sisters in their booer
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding
A knicht had come an' courted them both
At the bonny bonny bows of London

He's courted the eldest wi' brooch and ring
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding
But he's courted the youngest wi' many better things
At the bonny bonny bows of London

* * * *

I've written most of the headnotes but they aren't completed: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british-and-other-versions--10-twa-sisters.aspx

It's taken a while :)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 04:24 PM

Hi,

There are numerous versions by the Scot travellers. This is by Johnny Whyte and is taken from his mother but is similar to John (Jock) Whyte's 1953 version (although Johnny's father was John (Jock) Whyte I'm not certain that they are the same). Johnny was born in 1910, traveled in Perth as a young man, and by 1975 when this was recorded was living in Montrose area near his brother Bryce Whyte (b. 1914) whose wife Betsy sang the same version. Johnny was recorded three times by Linda Williamson from 1975-78. The word "swim" in the refrain appears as sweem or sweems-- I've changed them all to "sweems." There is some melodic resemblance to the Kelby version collected by MacColl and sent to Bronson. Strangely the identical text is attributed to Christina MacAllister in MacColl's 1977 book, Travellers' Songs from England and Scotland.

Swan Sweems Sae Bonnie

1. Dear sisterie, dear sisterie, are you going for a walk,
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
And I'll show you wonderies before you come home,
And the swan but sweems sae bonnie-o.

2. Dear sister, dear sisterie, we'll go for a walk,
Hy-ie-o, eae bonnie-o;
If you show me wonderiee before we come home,
And the swan it sweems sae bonnie-o.

3. Dear sister, dear sisterie, we'll go for a walk,
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
If you show me wonderies before we come home,
And the swan 'at sweems sae bonnie-o.

4. Dear sisterie, dear sisterie, put your footen on marble stonie,
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
And I'll show you that wonderie before we turn home,
And the swan 'at sweems sae bonnie-o.

5. Dear sisterie, dear sisterie, I put my foot on the marble stonie,
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
But sly she throwed her against a' the stream,
And the swan 'at sweems sae bonnie-o.

6. Dear sister, dear sisterie, will you take-a my handie?
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
And I'll make you mistress of all my father's landie,
And the swan that sweem sae bonnie-o.

7. Sometime she sunk noo, other time she swum,
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
At last 'he came to the millerie's dam,
And the swan that sweems sae bonnie-o.

8. The millerie's maiden was out forie some waterie,
He-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
I see a maiden or a whitemilk swan,
And the swan that sweems sae bonnie-o.

9. Oh miller, oh millerie, oh dry up your dam,
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
I see a maiden or a white-milk swanie,
And the swan that sweems sae bonnie-o.

10 The miller drew noo up his dam
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
And then they took her and hand her oot,
And the swan that sweems sae bonnie-o.

11. There were three fiddleries on their-ie way
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
One o' them took three links of her hair-ie,
For to make the fiddle stringies
Her middle finger-ie for-ie tae make some fiddle pins
The other took now her-ie breast bone
For to mak a fiddle that would play a tune its lone
And the swan that sweems sae bonnie-o.

12. The three fiddlers went on their way,
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
Till they come to her father's castle wall
And the swan that sweems sae bonnie-o.

13. There now sits my father the king
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
And likewise now my mother the queen,
And the swan that sweems sae bonnie-o.

14. Aye and there sits my false sister Jean,
[1st refrain omited]
Who's slyly throwed me against the stream,
And the swan 'at sweems sae bonnie-o.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 06:36 PM

Ritchie - all he says at the beginning of the track is "My name's Brian Miller. I'll sing for you The Twa Sisters".

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 05:05 AM

I've just listened to the Brian Miller (appropriate name!) recording. Fascinating! This is the first version I have ever met where the dead girl's ghost instructs the musician (in this case her father's fiddler) to use parts of her body for his instrument (in this case her hair and her little finger bone), and where the elder sister's punishment is tit for tat: to be drowned.

BTW, when I sing a version including the "resuscitation" I have her hair being used for the fiddle bow, which seems more appropriate than for a string, although that does mean that, if the fiddle is to play "all alone", rather than in the fiddler's hands, then the bow has to be involved as well.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 11:47 PM

Hi,

TY Mitch and Richard. I've contacted Siobhan Miller, Brian's daughter and a fine traditional ballad singer. She's going to send the request of the source to her dad-- maybe she'll record his version someday. Here's a different version she recorded of the Twa Sisters:

Swan Swims sae Bonnie: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Siobhan+Miller&&view=detail&mid=EF7E8A4389E283537C87EF7E8A4389E283537C87&&FORM=VDRVRV

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 12:04 AM

Hi,

Brian Miller emailed me yesterday:

Hi

This was a very long time ago! I believe I found it in a book in Rutherglen Library. From memory it could have been Ford's Vagabond Songs. Or maybe Christie. Might be able to check once home.

I once heard Martin Carthy sing a quite different ballad to the same tune. Pretty sure he said it was from Ford. Later he recorded with Dave Swarbrick another longer version of the two sisters ballad with this tune but lyrics from a different source. Think the CD was called something like Life and Limb.

Hope that helps a bit.

Brian         

PS I was at Strathclyde University from 1968 to 1972. Not Glagow. I believe the recording was made at Blairgowrie TMSA festival singing competition.

* * * *

After checking it was from Christie who used Peter Buchan's text (1828, below) and made some slight changes. Here are the notes and text from Buchan's "Ballads of the North of Scotland" II, 128, 1828.

Buchan's notes: I have seen four or five different versions of this ballad; but none in this dress, nor with the same chorus, which makes me give its insertion here. In this copy, we are informed that the lady's suitor was a king's son, whereas, in most of the others, he was only a baron. The fatal incidents are nearly the same. The old woman, from whose recitation I took it down, says she had heard another way of it, quite local, whose burden runs thus:- “Even into Buchanshire, vari, vari, O.”

THE BONNY BOWS O' LONDON

THERE were twa sisters in a bower,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding ;
And ae king's son hae courted them baith,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

He courted the youngest wi' brooch and ring,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
He courted the eldest wi' some other thing,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

It fell ance upon a day,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
The eldest to the youngest did say,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London:

“Will ye gae to the bonnie mill-dam
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
And see our father's ships come to land,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.”

They baith stood up upon a stane,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
The eldest dang the youngest in,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

She swimmed up, sae did she down,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
Till she came to the Tweed mill-dam,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

The miller's servant he came out,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
And saw the lady floating about,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

“O master, master, set your mill,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
There is a fish, or a milk-white swan,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.”

They could not ken her yellow hair,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
The scales o' gowd that were laid there,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

They could not ken her fingers sae white,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
The rings o' gowd they were sae bright,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

They could not ken her middle sae jimp,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
The stays o' gowd were so well laced,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

They could not ken her foot sae fair,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
The shoes o' gowd they were so rare,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

Her father's fiddler he came by,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
Upstarted her ghaist before his eye,
At the bonny, bonny bows of London.

“Ye'll take a lock o' my yellow hair,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
Ye'll make a string to your fiddle there,
At the bonny, bonny bows of London.

“Ye'll take a lith o' my little finger bane,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
And ye’ll make a pin to your fiddle then,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.”

He’s ta'en a lock o’ her yellow hair,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
And made a string to his fiddle there,
At the bouny, bonny bows o' London.

He's taen a lith o' her little finger bane,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
And he's made a pin to his fiddle then,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

The first and spring the fiddle did play,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding:
Said, “Ye'll drown my sister, as she's dune me,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.”
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 06:50 PM

Hi,

This may be oldest version with the same chorus. Copied as written from Transactions and Journal of Proceedings - Page 76, 77; Dumfriesshire and Galloway Natural History and Antiquarian Society - 1936. The title is obviously not a good one for there are "three sisters." I'm assuming it's a title that has been attached by an editor and the text is by Elizabeth St. Clair of Edinburgh about 1770 who compiled the Mansfield Manuscripts:

THE TWA SISTERS. [Bonny Bowes of London]
MS., pp. 171-176
The second and fourth lines of the first verse are given in a contracted form in verses 2-21.

1 There lived three sisters in a Bower
Heigh & a gay & a grounding
There came a knight to court them there
At the bonny bowes of London

2 He courted the Eldest with a knife
But he loved the youngest as his life

3 The Eldest to the Youngest said
Will Ye go our fathers ships to sea

4. But when they came to the seaside
The Eldest she the youngest betray'd

5. O set your foot upon yon stone
And reach me up my gay gold ring

6. She's set her foot upon yon stone
And she gave her a shoot & she's faen in

7. O sister tak me by the hand
And ye's get a my fathers land

8. O sister tak me by the glove
And ye'se get William to be your love.

9. I will not tak ye by the hand
For I ken Ill be heir of my fathers land

10 I will not tak ye by the glove
For I ken Ill get William to be my love

11. O aye she sank & aye she swam
Untill she came to yon Mill Dam

12 The millar came out wi' his lang Cleek
He thought to gripe her by the feet

13. He could nae gripe her by the feet
Her silken shoes they were sae, weet

14. He gat her griped by & by
And he laid her on a Dyke to dry

15. Her fathers fidler coming by
She spake unto him & did say

16. Gie my service to my father King
And likewise to my mother Queen

17. Gie my service to my Brother John
And likewise to my true love William

18. Gie my service to my sister Ann
And gar burn my sister Alison

19. When he to the gates did come
The fiddle began to play its lane

20. Gie my service to my father King
And likewise to my mother Queen

21. Gie my service to my brother John
And likewise to, my true love William

22 Gie my service to my sister Ann
Heigh & a gay & a grounding
But gar burn my sister Alison
At the bonny bowes of London
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 05:17 PM

Several more fine versions there - thanks Richie and Kevin.

I'm particularly interested in the Nora Hicks version, which strongly resembles that sung by Lee Monroe Presnell - who was of course part of the Beech Mountain clan and presumably the other NC source you mention. But Nora's has the individual strings of the fiddle giving voice, which is very rare in US variants.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 02:43 PM

Hi,

I've completed the rough draft of "Twa Sisters," thanks everyone for their help. It's here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british-and-other-versions--10-twa-sisters.aspx Comments welcome, I know there are minor errors.

Here's the ending section- Some Conclusions:

Some Conclusions
The ballad of the Twa Sisters is about the murder of the younger sister by an elder sister[37] over the affections of a man who courts them both and prefers the younger sister. Although jealousy is the motive there's a deeper additional motive of skin-color envy: the elder sister is dark skinned while the younger is fair skinned or white so the elder sister feels she can't compete for a groom with her younger sister. In the ur-ballad the elder sister's murder has given her sole access to their suitor, and they are to be married.

The ballad is about punishment or retribution for the crime of murder which, except for a confession from the elder sister, would not be solved. The retribution is made only through the supernatural resuscitation ending-- the dead sister speaks through a musical instrument with strings fashioned from her hair[38] and reveals the elder sister as the murderer. That this revelation occurs in some Scandinavian versions at the wedding of the elder sister with the younger sister's beloved is fitting. The punishment as ordered by the bridegroom: the elder sister is to be burned to death upon a pyre.

Paul Brewster who did the last detailed study of the ballad in 1953 believes the Marchen to be of Slavic origin. From the tale the ballad originated in Norway before 1600 then spread throughout Scandinavia. By the early 1600s the Two Sisters had spread to Scotland then England and Ireland where the miller (and mill dam) where added. In the UK The Twa Sisters emerged in different forms with different refrains. Two of the most popular variants lost the resuscitation ending:

1. the English "Bow Down" variant (Child Y), minus the resuscitation but with punishment, was brought to America in the mid-late 1700s. Although the miller finds the body, he is not the younger sister's love. The miller finds the younger sister in the water, robs her then pushes her back out into the water. The miller is hung (or burned) and the elder sister burned (or hung).
2. the Scottish "Binorie" variant (Child M), minus the resuscitation and punishment, was developed in Scotland in the last half of the 1700s. The miller laddie, though not at fault for the death of his beloved (the younger sister) sometimes dies at her funeral, presumably of a broken heart.

An early version of the English "Bow Down" variant with herb refrains and the missing resuscitation stanzas (my I form) was collected in America from the Hick-Harmon families. It's easy to imagine that this form existed before the short form (Child Y) was created and that the Child Y text originated from a ballad similar to the Hicks/Harmon ballad in England during the early to mid 1700s. In the new ballad represented by Child Y and the many versions of North America, the bow down refrains were inserted, the resuscitation stanzas were left off and a new short "punishement" ending replaced them.

Because most of the Maritime Canada versions have similar refrains to "Bows of London," it may be assumed they originated from the early Scottish variants first collected around 1770. The "Swan Swims Sae Bonny" refrain versions with resuscitation stanzas which Barry presumed to be Irish then Scottish (but they are both) were well known by the Scottish travelers in the 1900s. Carpenter collected an excellent version from Mary Robertson in the early 1930s and versions from the Whyte (White) and Stewart traveller families have been collected from the 1950s onward. Presumably the ballad is still sung traditionally among travellers as Elizabeth Stewarts version was recorded in 2004.

The ur-ballad has branched off from its Norse roots and taken different forms with a variety of refrains. In the versions with the resuscitation stanza the story has not changed much -- only missing the final scene at the wedding of the elder sister. The construction of the ur-ballad would necessarily include the courtship, the rejection of the elder sister because she is darker, the sisters going for a walk to the the sea brim (strand), the murder, the offers of the drowning girl to her older sister, the rejection of those offers, the drowning and recovery, the resuscitation of the younger sister at the wedding of the elder sister and their suitor, and finally, the punishment of the elder sister.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 04:49 PM

> The ur-ballad has branched off from its Norse roots and taken different forms with a variety of refrains.

It is a striking feature of this ballad just how different these forms and refrains are. AFAIK no other ballad comes close to having such a variety of forms. Several persons must have quite deliberately rebuilt this ballad at one time or another while keeping the same plot apart from the inclusion or exclusion of the resuscitation stanzas, either working from previous versions in English or perhaps making new translations from Scandinavian versions.

A few days ago I commented that Brian Miller's version was the first I have ever met where the dead girl's ghost instructs the musician to use parts of her body for his instrument, and where the elder sister's punishment is tit for tat: to be drowned. I am now reminded that this is Child O apart from the omission of a few verses and some other very minor changes.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Brian Peters
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 05:37 PM

"It is a striking feature of this ballad just how different these forms and refrains are."

Indeed, Richard.

"...the English "Bow Down" variant (Child Y), minus the resuscitation but with punishment, was brought to America in the mid-late 1700s"

That's what I've suspected for some time, Richie. Like many of the most popular Appalachian ballads, it most likely went over from England.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 08:00 PM

Hi Brian,

There are six Hicks/Harmon/Presnell versions with the herb/flower refrains-- all from the same family- three have the resuscitation stanzas (and another resuscitation version is from Jane Gentry's daughter, Maud Long, with additional stanzas of Jane Gentry's version). I've traced them back to Big Sammy Hicks from Fannie Hicks and separately from Council Harmon, who was Jane Gentry's grandfather and briefly lived with her. Council's son was the father of Samuel Harmon who moved to Tennessee. Council lived with Big Sammy when he was a child and his father was killed by a tree when Counce was about 7. His mother Sabra Hicks couldn't take care of her children and they stayed with Big Sammy,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 06:28 PM

Superb research, Richie!

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 09:40 AM

Richie,
I've just finished reading your article on Child 10, my hat's off to you, that was a wonderfully detailed account of the many different forms this ballad has taken in English language versions.

I'm curious about Maud Long's version, in your article you write that she sang a more complete version than Jane Hicks Gentry, containing stanzas that Cecil Sharp had missed, and that it also had the resuscitation ending.

However, looking at the text of Long's version as recorded by Moser:
http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/the-two-sisters--maud-long-nc-1955-rec-moser-

Her version does not have the instrument making stanzas, it ends with the miller being hanged. Is there another, more complete text of her version available?

I'm familiar with the recoding of Artus Moser singing the ballad as learned from Maud Long and it is the shorter text seen on your website.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 11:03 AM

"Is there another, more complete text of her version available?"

The Library of Congress appears to have a recording from 1947, presumably not made by Maud Karpeles, who visited Ms Long three years later. I'm sure Richie will be along soon to tell us.

Richie, what are the six Hicks/Harmon/Presnell versions? I know about Jane Gentry, Maud Long, Lee Monroe Presnell and now Nora Hicks - I can't see any more transcriptions on this thread.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 12:45 PM

Regarding Maud Long's different versions. I have examples of recording source singers who, when they were aware of collectors etc., becoming interested in their songs went to some lengths to add material from printed sources or from other versions. This is just a possibility with Maud Long's additions.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 01:08 PM

Hi,

TY Steve, you've been a big help. Brian here are the six versions from the Hicks/Harmon/Presnell family all with the flower/herb refrains:

I. The herd/flower refrains, "Jury flower gent the roseberry," ("Gilliflower gentle rosemary") with resuscitation stanzas; archaic American, dated c.1779 through Big Sammy Hicks of Virginia then North Carolina. From relatives of Hicks, Harmon, Presnell families of North Carolina, Tennessee.
    a. "The Two Sisters." Sung by Mrs. Jane Gentry at Hot Springs, N. C. on September, 11, 1916; from Sharp's EFFSA, version A.
    b. "The Two Sisters." Recorded by Mrs. Henry from the singing of Mrs. Samuel Harmon, Cade's Cove, Blount County, Tennessee, August 13, 1930. From Mellinger Henry's 1938 book, Folk-Songs from the Southern Highlands, version C.
    c. "The Two Sisters," from Abrams, Variant 1, sung by Mrs. Nora Hicks, as copied down by Addie Hicks and given to Abrams by Edith Walker in 1939. From the Abrams Collection, part of Documenting Appalachia digital initiative at Appalachian State University.
    d. "The Two Sisters That Loved One Man," sung Lee Monroe Presnell from Beech Mountain NC, (Buna Hicks uncle), recorded by Frank Warner in 1951 without resuscitation stanzas.
    e. "The Two Sisters," sung by Maud Long (Jane Gentry's daughter). From the recording, "North Carolina Ballads" by Artus Moser, Folkways recording FA 2112, 1955.
    f. "Two Sisters." Sung by Hattie Presnell; a composite of versions from 1966 through 1971. From Some Ballad Folks, Burton, 1978. His notes follow. Hattie Presnell learned this from her Uncle Monroe.

Kevin. As far as Maud Long's version, I meant the opening lines were fuller but after looking at it carefully Maud sings a different version of Twa Sisters with her mother's refrain. I'll ck Smith (her book on Jane Gentry) and see if there's anything there.

Hattie Presnell's version is different also and similar to Uncle Monroe Presnell's version which is confused at the end. Both seem to be more Scottish.

Only Jane Gentry, Nora Hicks and Mrs. Sam Harmon have versions with the resuscitation ending but all have the similar refrains. It's clear that my headnotes need to reflect that these versions are not the same- they just have the same refrains,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 01:39 PM

Thanks for the questions, that improves that section-- headnotes changed now.

Here's the only Carpenter version of Child 11. If anyone has the John Clare text (As three maidens played at ball, B7 34; Folk Tradition 186; Middle Period II 280) I need that. I'm curious to check the text of the Sloane MSS, 1489, fol. 16, from the early 1600s which has the same opening. It's published as a nursery rhyme by Halliwell.

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/D, pp. 04600-04601

The Cruel Brother- Miss Bell Duncan of Insch, Aberdeenshire. Learned from her mother

There cam a man to my bedside
o'er the hills an' far awa',
He wis askin' me tae be his bride,
For the wind blaws aye my plaid away'.

My father he gaen his consent,
An' my mother she wis weel content,

My sister she was well pleased
But my brother said she sudna reased,

The weddin' was set and the weddin' came,
An' the steed cam there to tak her hame,

Her mother led her through the room,
An' her sister dear she brocht her doon,

Her father led her through the close,
An' her brother set her on her horse,

Below his cloak he wore a brand,
He concealed it weel wi' his left hand,

he has slipped it through a strae,
An' through her body made it gae,

They hadna ridden a mile bet ane;
"Stop, stop! My bonnie bride's pale an' wan,

Frae her steed she then was ta'en,
An' her vera heairts bleed rin on the green,

"Fat will ye leave tee yer father dear?"
"The guid grey steed that brocht me here."

"Fat will ye leave tee yer mother dear?"
"Three long tits o my yellow hair,"

"Fat will ye leave tee yer sister dear?"
"my marriage goon and the weed I wear,"

"Fat will ye leave tee yer Brother John?"
"A high gallows tree for to hang on,"

"Fat will ye leave tee yer bother's wife?"
"A vera sad an unhappy life,"

"Fat will ye leave tee yer brother's bairns?"
"That they may die in each other's arms."
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 02:26 PM

Thank you for listing all the versions, Richie,
from glancing over all the Hicks/Harmon/Presnell versions each one of them is a bit different in details, if they all came from the same family tradition they might have been influenced by other traditional versions (and forgetfulness) to various degrees.

I'll give the links to the texts here for others to compare them easily:
Nora Hicks: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/the-two-sisters--hicks-nc-pre1939-walkerabram
Hattie Presnell: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/two-sisters--hattie-presnell-nc-1966-burton.a
Lee Monroe Presnell: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/two-sisters-that-loved-one-man--presnell-nc-1

Nora Hicks', Hattie Presnell's and Lee Monroe Presnell's versions are closely related, but Hattie's and Lee Monroe's are missing the ending completely.
Nora Hicks' version is the most complete US version I've seen so far, rivaled only by Aunt Becky Gordon's "Edinboro" version (See Brown C).
It's very unfortunate that no sound recording of Nora's version was made, I know that she was recorded by Frank C. Brown and William Amos Abrams, but they apparently missed this song.

Jane Gentry: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/the-two-sisters--jane-gentry-nc-1916--sharp-a
Maud Long: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/the-two-sisters--maud-long-nc-1955-rec-moser-

Jane Gentry's and Maud Long's are still similar, but Maud's has picked up the opening stanza of another standard "Bow Down" version.

One stanza:
O, as they walked down to the water's brim
The oldest pushed the youngest in.

Is very different in Jane Gentry's:
She picked her up all in her strong arms
And threwed her sister into the sea.

Maud Long's version has also replaced the harp ending with the standard "miller robs her and gets hanged" ending from the "Bow Down" versions.
I think you are right about the singer trying to get a more complete text for the collector, Steve, perhaps Maud Long has heard the "Bow Down" version of the ballad somewhere and filled out her own version with that.

Mrs. Samuel Harmon: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/the-two-sisters--harmon-tn-1930-henry-c.aspx

Mrs. Samuel Harmon's version is a bit like a missing link.
It is missing much of the story, but it has the Presnell opening stanza:
1. Was two sisters loved one man,
Jelly flower jan;
The rose marie;
The jury hangs o'er
The rose marie.
2. He loved the youngest a little the best,
Jelly flower jan etc.

The refrain at the end of each stanza is like Jane Gentry's version.

It has the harp stanzas, but here it's "she", apparently the bad sister herself that makes the harp.

The harp then plays:
8. The first string says, "Yonder sets my sister on a rock
Tying of a true-love's knot,"
9. The next string says, "She pushed me in the deep so far."

Which recalls an earlier stanza from Jane Gentry's version:
7. O the farmer's wife was sitting on a rock,
Tying and a-sewing of a black silk knot.

I guess that Mrs. Samuel Harmon's ending was once part of Jane Gentry's version too, but eventually forgotten.

Those are my observations for now.

-Kevin W.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 02:55 PM

Here you go, Richie. Exactly as in Deacon's book, except that I've changed his irritating ampersands for 'and's.


Child 11, from John Clare

As three maidens played at ball
Aye & the lily aye
There came three knights among them all
And the roseys sweet in mary

The first gay knight was cloathed in green (white)
And he asked one maid to be his queen

The next good knight was cloathed in white
And he asked the maid to be his bride

The next good [k]night was cloathed in red
And he asked the maid if she woud wed

O you must ask my father dear
Likewise my mother that did me bare

And you must ask my lover John
I rkcwise my sisters everyone

O I have asked your father dear
Likewise your mother that did you bear

O I have asked your brother John
Likewise your sisters everyone

Her father gave her at the door
Her mother swooned upon the floor

Her father gave her at the stile
And her mother swoonded for her child

Her father gave her at the cross
And her brother helped her on the horse

He had a penknife long and sharp
And prickt his sister to the heart

Ride on ride on you fast good man
I think your bride looks pale and wan

Ride on ride on you next good man (knight)
I think your bride goes bleeding on

Ride on ride on you jolly bridegroom
I think your bride is almost dumb

She rode till she came to yonder hill
And there she lit and made her will

What will you leave your father dear
My wedding steed that brought me here

What will you give your mother dear
My wedding dress

That she may long upon the grief
And see she has a daughter less

What will you leave your sister ann
All I do wear on my right hand

What will you give your sister Jane
My cambric cap and gown of green

What will you give your sister Sue
My wedding hat with ribbons blue

What will you give your brother Johns wife
Sorrow and trouble all her life

What will you give your brother Johns child
A father only a little wild

What will you give your brother John
The gallows mother to hang upon

Peterborough MS. 87 p.34

Note to text: the words in brackets are those which Clare has deleted.

Untitled in the manuscript, this ballad is a version of Child, No. 11,'The Cruel Brother'. In other versions it is often difficult to establish a reason for the murder of the bride by her brother. Clare’s text, however, clearly states that the suitor must ask permission of her 'lover brother'. The existence of an incestuous relationship is thus established. Incest is the cause of fratricide in several other ballads, such as 'Sheath and Knife' (Child, No. 16),'The Bonny Hind' (Child, No.50) and 'Lizzie Wan' (Child, No.51 ). It is interesting to note it is incest between brother and sister and not father and daughter. There is no mention of a child or pregnancy as there is in the other examples given. Blood ties between brother and sister and her future children could have been strong enough to warrant the brother's permission being necessary prior to the marriage, and the groom's assurance that he had sought that permission could be a lie. Another common feature in this ballad is the last will and testament ending, which also occurs in 'Lord Randal'.

Although Clare has not given a source this obviously has its roots in oral culture. However it has not been widely collected, Bronson giving only eleven tunes. Clare’s text provides a useful link between the broadside texts of the seventeenth century and the versions subsequently collected and this may well be another example of a song from his own experience and memory rather than a 'collected song'.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 02:56 PM

It's just coincidence, but I've recently tried to noise reduce some of the Bell Duncan recordings from the Carpenter collection.

Here's my try on The Cruel Brother:
https://soundcloud.com/user-860765554/bell-duncan-the-cruel-brother-noise-reduce

The Cruel Brother - Recorded by James Madison Carpenter
from Bell Duncan of Lambhill, Inch, Aberdeenshire c.1934.

There is a cylinder recording of this song in the Carpenter Collection.
Of this cylinder two disc transfers were made. All the recordings contain the same
stanzas, so I've decided to use the recording that has the best audio quality
instead of including many near identical (and near unlistenable) recordings.

This version uses the burden and tune of "The Elfin Knight",
which Bell Duncan also sang.

There cam a man tae my bed side,
Ower the hills an far a-wa';
He wis askin me tae be his bride,
For the wind blows aye my plaid a-wa'.

My father he gae his consent,
Ower the hills an far a-wa,
And my mother she wis weel con-tent,
For the wind blaws aye my plaid a-wa'.

My sister said she was well pleased,
Ower the hills an far a-wa,
And my brother said she sud-na reesed,
For the wind blaws aye my plaid a-wa.

And here's The Twa Magicians:
https://soundcloud.com/user-860765554/bell-duncan-the-twa-magicians-noise-reduce

The Twa Magicians - Recorded by James Madison Carpenter
from Bell Duncan of Lambhill, Inch, Aberdeenshire c.1934.

She becam a girdle
And he becam a cake,
And a' things that she did become,
And ' he becam' her make.

And it's bide, lassie, bide,
And aye he bade her bide,
And be a brookie smith's wife,
And that'll lay yer pride.

She becam a duke, a duke,
Tae puddle in a peel,
An' he becam a drake, a drake,
Tae gie the duke a dreel.

And it's bide, lassie, bide,
And aye he bade her bide,
And be a brookie smith's wife,
And that'll lay yer pride.

And another coincidence, I just recently bought a copy of Deacon's book because I was interested in Clare's version of The Daemon Lover.

Here's John Clare's Cruel Brother:

1 As three maidens played at ball
Aye & the lily aye
There came three knights among them all
& the roseys sweet in mary

2 The first gay knight was cloathed in green (white)
Aye &c &c
& he asked one maid to be his queen
& &c

3 The next good knight was cloathed in white
& he asked the maid to be his bride

4 The next good [k]night was cloathed in red
& he asked the maid if she would wed

5 O you must ask my father dear
Likewise my mother that did me bare

6 & you must ask my lover John
Likewise my sisters every one

7 O I have asked your father dear
Likewise your mother that did you bear

8 O I have asked your brother John
Likewise your sisters every one

9 Her father gave her at the door
Her mother swooned upon the floor

10 Her father gave her at the stile
& her mother swoonded for her child

11 Her father gave her at the cross
& her brother helped her on the horse

12 He had a penknife long & sharp
& prickt his sister to the heart

13 Ride on ride on you fast good man
I think your bride looks pale & wan

14 Ride on ride on you next good man (knight)
I think your bride goes bleeding on

15 Ride on ride on you jolly bridegroom
I think your bride is almost dumb

16 She rode till she came to yonder hill
& there she lit & made her will

17 What will you leave your father dear
My wedding steed that brought me here

18 What will you give your mother dear
My wedding dress

19 That she may long upon the grief
& see she has a daughter less

20 What will you leave your sister ann
All I do wear on my right hand

21 What will you give your sister Jane
My cambric cap & gow nof green

22 What will you give your sister Sue
My wedding hat with ribbons blue

23 What will you give your brother Johns wife
Sorrow & trouble all her life

24 What will you give your brother Johns child
A father only a little wild

25 What will you give your brother John
The gallows mother to hang upon

Sources
Text given   Peterborough MS. B7 p. 34

Note to text: The words in brackets are those which Clare has deleted.


While we're at it, I can give you Clare's "Daemon Lover" as well, I recently typed it down:

Taken from my Mothers singing

1 Whos that under my window
That doth so sigh & moan
Is it my father dear
Or is it my brother John
Or is it my own true love
That from Scotland has newly come home.

2 It is not your father dear
It is not your brother John
But it is your own true love
That from Scotland has newly come home
James Ellice is my name you know
Altho youve lost the vow

3 Im new come from the salt salt sea
& its all for the sake of loving thee
I might have had a kings daughter
& she would have married me
& have forgone her golden crown
& all for the sake of thee

4 If you might have had a kings daughter
You none were much to blame
I would not for a thousand pound
My husband should hear the same

5 My husband is a carpenter
A ship carpenter is he
& by him Ive a little son
Or love Id go with thee

6 If youll forsake your husband dear
Your little son also
I will your former vows forgive
If you will with me go

7 If I forsake my husband dear
My little son also
What have you to maintain me on
If with you I should go

8 Ive seven ships sails on the seas
& one of them brought me to land
With carpenters & mariners
& all at your command

9 A pair of slippers you shall have
All of the beaten gold
With rich velvet they shall be lined
To keep your feet from cold

10 When he did tell her these fine tales
Her heart he gan to win
& cause he was drest like a man
She up & let him in

11 A pair of slippers she put on
They shined like beaten gold

12 She had not sailed on the sea
Past days two or three
Before she gan to weep & wail
& wept most bitterly

13 Did you weep for gold he said
Or do you weep for fee
Or do you weep for any man
You do love better than me

14 O I dont weep for gold she said
Nor I dont weep for fee
But I do weep for my little son
That cries for his mothers knee

15 She had not sailed on the sea
Past days three & four
When she & ship & all were sunk
& never was seen no more

16 O cursed be these mariners
They lead a wicked life
Theyve ruined this young carpenter
& deluded away his wife

Sources
Text given   Peterborough MS B4, p. 46

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 02:59 PM

Whoops, looks like Brian did so as well and we both posted the text.

Anyways, here are the notes to John Clare's Daemon Lover:

This song is another of those not commonly encountered in English collections from oral sources.
Untitled in the only manuscript copy, which shows no sign of having been altered or Corrected by
Clare, it is a version of "The Daemon Lover" (Child, No. 243). Despite the resemblance between the
first two verses of Clare's version and the opening verses of "Sweet William's Ghost" (Child, No. 77),
comparison with the text that Child prints from Bucan's Ballads of North of Scotland reveals a remarkably
similar opening to the ballad. Apart from providing us with evidence of the ballad's having been sung in
Northamptonshire, Clare's version also retains not only the unusual opening but a stronger reminder of the
ghostly nature of the returning lover than do most versions (see verse 10 "& cause he was drest like a man").
Songs on the theme of returning ghost lovers are not uncommon and useful comparisons can be made with "Sweet
William's Ghost" and songs bearing the title "The Lover's Ghost" or "The Grey Cock", and with Clare's own
"Shipwreck Ghost".

Verse 11, which lacks two lines, may be completed by inserting variants of lines 3 and 4 of verse 9, i. e.

With rich velvet they were lined
To keep her feet from cold

The only other problem is the variation in verse length (from six lines to four lines). I have chosen to use a
four-line tune, repeating the last two lines of the tune for the first three, although a six-line tune could be
employed with a repetition of the last two lines of each verse. This, while not common is not unknown in other
versions of the song.

It is perhaps worth noting that this song is one of the survivors in the oral tradition from the black-letter
broadside tradition, having been printed in the seventeenth century with the following title:

"A Warning for Married Women
Being an example of Mrs Jane Reynolds (a West Country Woman) born near Plimouth, who having plighted her Troth
to a Seaman, was afterwards married to a Carpenter, and at last carried away by a Spirit, the manner how shall
presently be recited. To a West country tune, call'd The Fair Maid of Bristol, or, John True."
London: Printed for A.M. W.O. And T. Thackeray in Duck Lane.

The above is taken from a copy in the British Library which has thirty-two verses of four lines. The initials
are those of A. Milbourn and W. Onley who, with Thackeray, were printing in London during the seventeenth century.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 03:00 PM

"I just recently bought a copy of Deacon's book because I was interested in Clare's version of The Daemon Lover.

Here's John Clare's Cruel Brother"

Beat you by a minute, Kevin! Yes, I too think Clare's Demon Lover is very interesting. As is this 'Cruel Brother' which I'd never looked at before.

I know we've duplicated here, but at least it taught me how to scan text on my (relatively) new scanner, so the effort wasn't wasted!

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 03:39 PM

I agree, Brian, John Clare's version of The Cruel Brother is beautiful.
(And you just reminded me that I could use a scanner as well, silly me, I typed it all by hand with the book next to my PC and now my hand hurts).

One thing that's a bit unusual about John Clare's text is that the knight replies that he has asked her brother John as well (was the knight lying to her?):

8 O I have asked your brother John
Likewise your sisters every one

In many versions this verse is not in first person, it often runs something like this:

He did ask her sister Anne
But he forgot her brother John.

Which is actually the reason why the brother feels betrayed and stabs her.

The same "mistake" (I'm really not sure if it is one) also shows up in Edith Ballinger Price's Massachusetts text from about 1914:

"Oh, I have asked your father the king
And I have asked your mother the queen.

"And I have asked your sister Anne
And I have asked your brother John."

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 03:42 PM

And again, I should have read the notes...
In Clare's version her brother John is also her lover, I somehow missed that.
I never noticed that The Cruel Brother had an incest element to it, maybe I should check the Child versions again.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 03:49 PM

Thanks Kevin and Brian,

Kevin, you're detailed notes are helpful. The gift of the "beaver cap" shows Maud's version has brought in stanzas from the standard US versions represented by Child Y. My theory is that the Hick/Harmon versions with resuscitation stanzas predate the standard English text and that the latter was derived from this early version but the resuscitation stanzas were dropped or forgotten.

As far as Child 11 it was popular then disappeared in the mid-1800s. Does anyone have Baring-Gould's version? As I remember a version was sent to him and he also had a nursery version he published. The traditional ballad index infers that the cruel brother kills his sister because of jealousy rather than because his permission was not obtained-- and that the evidence is found in the dying bride's will. Anyone have versions that support this?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 04:24 PM

The Baring Gould versions will be on the EFDSS website. I'll send you the Crawfurd versions later tonight. Surely Child's headnotes cover motives. The permission not obtained is a common motive to ballads is it not?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 04:51 PM

Steve,

TY

Yes, that is the motive- permission not obtained from her brother. I was just wondering about the Traditional ballad index info.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 06:16 PM

You should have more confidence in your own findings. Any advice from me and the others here and the DT and even Child is not guaranteed to be right. Once you have gathered together all of the versions you have much more info than Child had and more than the rest of us here. By all means flag up any questionable points on meanings etc.

Regarding a possible incest element one needs to be cautious with this if it only occurs in one interim version.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 08:22 PM

My interest in Carpenter is more aroun his thesis than his collection due to the maritime focus.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 09:05 PM

Hi,

SPB Cooperator, elaborate of Carpenter's thesis please :)

I've just read the posts more carefully and it's clear in Clare's version that the motive for the murder is jealousy and is evidence that in several versions the brother was asked permission yet still stabs his sister. In the notes it says, "Clare’s text provides a useful link between the broadside texts of the seventeenth century and the versions subsequently collected. . ."

What are the broadside texts of the seventeenth century?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 10:49 PM

Hi,

Baring Gould sent a fragment of "Fine Flowers" to Child (SBG/5 Harvard / Child book: Ballads and Songs Collected by the Rev. S. Baring-Gould, chiefly in Devonshire, and sent by him to Prof. F.J. Child (now in Harvard) Feb. 26, 1892). There's some info below, some of which I've taken from the DT. The original letter is here, Sabine Baring-Gould Manuscript Collection (SBG/5/64): https://www.vwml.org/search?q=RN26%20baring-gould&is=1 My transcription follows:

[The flowers that were in the valley]

1. There was a woman and she was a widow
The flowers that bloom in the valley
A daughter she had as the Elan tree,
O the red, the green and the yellow,
The harp, the lute, the fife the flute and the cymbal
Sweet was this treble violin
The flowers that bloom in the valley.

2. There comes a knight all clothed in red,
The flowers that bloom in the valley
O and will you be my bride,
& etc.

3. There comes a second all clothed in green,
The flowers that bloom in the valley,
And he said, Fair maid will you be my queen,
& etc

The first stanza was noted by Frederick William Bussell and Sabine Baring Gould from Mary Gilbert and her brother William, both of the Falcon Inn, about 1880.

William Gilbert's verse appears in Cecil Sharp's MSS, and is also quoted by Bronson (vol.I p.190, 11:9):

There was a widow all forlorn
Nine brave boys of her body were borne [sic]
Flowers that were in the Valley
The harp the lute the fife the flute & the cymbal
Sweet goes the treble violin
Flowers that were in the Valley.

The other stanzas that Baring-Gould sent to Child were quoted in Bronson: Baring Gould, "I have had what is clearly the same melody with the same burden of The Flowers in the Valley and the enumeration of the instruments in connection with the Three Knights". It is described as "Sung by Mr. Old, at the same time as the other variant".

There was a Knight all clothed in red
The flowers that were in the valley
O and wilt thou be my bride? he said
O the red, the green and the yellow.
The harp, the lute, &c.

There came a second all clothed in green
The flowers that were in the valley.
And he said, My Fair, wilt thou be my queen"
O the red, the green and the yellow.
The harp, the lute, &c.

There came a third, in yellow was he
The flowers that were in the valley,
And he said, My bride for sure thoul't be,
O the red, the green and the yellow.
The harp, the lute, &c.

* * * *

Baring Gould published a reworked version in "A Garland of Country Song":

O there was a woman and she was a widow
Fair are the flowers in the valley
With a daughter as fair as a fresh sunny meadow
The Red, the Green and the Yellow
The Harp - The Lute - The Pipe, the Flute, the Cymbal,
Sweet goes the treble violin
The maid so rare, and the flowers so fair
Together they grew in the Valley

There came a Knight all clothed in red
Fair are the flowers in the valley
"I would thou wert my bride", he said,
The Red, the Green and the Yellow
The Harp - The Lute - The Pipe, the Flute, the Cymbal,
Sweet goes the treble violin
"I would", she sighed, "ne'er wins a bride!"
Fair are the flowers in the valley.

There came a Knight all clothed in green
Fair are the flowers in the valley
"This maid so sweet might be my queen",
The Red, the Green and the Yellow
The Harp - The Lute - The Pipe, the Flute, the Cymbal,
Sweet goes the treble violin
"Might be", sighed she, "will ne'er win me!"
Fair are the flowers in the valley.

There came a Knight in yellow was he
Fair are the flowers in the valley
"My bride, my queen, thou must with me!,
The Red, the Green and the Yellow
The Harp - The Lute - The Pipe, the Flute, the Cymbal,
Sweet goes the treble violin
With blushes red, "I come", she said
"Farewell to the flowers in the valley."

Source: A Garland of Country Song, ISBN 1-86143 071 X

Notes: Collected by S Baring-Gould from Mr Gilbert, The Falcon Inn, Mawgan, Pydar, Cornwall, about 1880.

Baring-Gould wrote:

    This exquisite melody along with fragments only of the words were obtained from Mr Gilbert, the Falcon Inn, Mawgan in Pydar, Cornwall, as he recalled having heard it sung by Thomas Williams, a man of ninety, who died in 1881. His words, however, were relative to nine sons of the widow -

    Three of them were seamen so brave,
    Three of them were soldiers so bold,
    Three of them - [rest forgotten]

    Then the last verse was "There was an end of the nine brave boys." We have striven in vain to recover this ballad.

    However, as I have had what is clearly the same melody with the same burden of "The Fowers in the Valley" and the enumeration of the instruments in connection with the "Three Knights, the Red, the Green and the Yellow" we have used these words.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 06:39 AM

Was there a broadside print of Child 11, The Cruel Brother during the sixteenth century?
Accordign to the notes in the John Calre book it should exist.

Looking at the Roud Index I found these entries:

Fine Flowers of the Valley
Source
Lane: Catalogue..Chapbooks & Broadsides..Harvard College No.839
Format
Printed : Street literature : Broadside / Chapbook catalogue
Src Contents
Reference only

It's just a reference, there's no text to go by.

And another one:

The Cruel Brother

First Line
There was three ladies play'd at the ba'
Source
Tragical Ballad of Lord John's Murder, The
Format
Printed : Street literature : Chapbook
Printer / Publisher
[For the Booksellers] (Glasgow) No.79


Here's the text for that one:
http://digital.nls.uk/chapbooks-printed-in-scotland/archive/108701622?mode=fulls

Together with The cruel brother. Glasgow : Printed for the booksellers, [1840-1850?].

But the date is too late.
I can't find anything earlier than that.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 06:42 AM

Oh, I think it is the one I posted above, John Clare's book says seventeenth century, not sixteenth.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 01:16 PM

The NLS chapbook version is taken verbatim from Jamieson.

I think George was mixing this up with another similar ballad, perhaps Fair Flower of Northumberland. As far as I know there is no early broadside in English, or in fact any broadside other than that taken from collections like Jamieson/Herd etc.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 02:59 PM

Hi,

Here's the chapbook text from National Library of Scotland:

Tragical ballad of Lord John's murder,
Together with The cruel brother. Glasgow:
Printed for the booksellers, [1840-1850?].

THE CRUEL BROTHER.

There was three ladies play’d at the ba'
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay;
There came a knight, and play’d o’er them a’,
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.

The eldest was baith tall and fair,
W ith a heigh-ho! and a lily gay;
But the youngest was beyond compare,
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.

The midmost had a gracefu’ mien,
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay;
But the youngest look’d like beauty’s queen.
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.

The knight bow’d low to a’ the three.
With a heigh-ho ! and a lily gay;
But to the youngest he bent his knee.
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.

The lady turned her head aside.
With a heigh-ho: and a lily gay;
The knight he woo’d her to be his bride.
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.

The lady blush’d a rosy red,
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay;
And said, “ Sir knight, I’m o’er young to wed,
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.”

“O, lady fair, give me your hand,
With a heigh ho! and a lily gay;
And I’ll mak’ you lady of a’ my land,
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.”

"Sir knight, ere you my favour win,
With a heigh ho! and a lily gay;
Ye maun get consent frae a’ my kin’,
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.”

He has got consent frae her parents dear,
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay;
And likewise frae her sisters fair,
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.

He has got consent frae her kin each one,
With a heigh ho! and a lily gay;
But forgot to spear at her brother John,
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.

Now, when the wedding-day was come,
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay;
The knight would take his bonnie bride home,
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.

And many a lord and many a knight,
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay;
Came to behold that lady bright,
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.

And there was nae man that did her see.
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay;
But wished himself bridegroom to be.
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.

Her father dear led her down the stair.
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay;
And her sisters twain thev kiss’d her there
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.

Her mother dear led her through the close.
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay;
And her brother John set her on the horse.
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.

She lean’d her o’er the saddle bow,
W ith a heigh-ho! and a lily gay;
To give him a kiss ere she did go,
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.

He has ta’en a knife, baith lang and sharp,
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay;
And stabb’d the bonnie bride to the heart
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.

She hadna ridden half through the town.
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay.
Until her heart’s blood stained her gown.
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.

“Ride saftly on,” said the best young man,
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay;
For I think our bonnie bride looks pale and wan,
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.”

“0, lead me gently up yon hill,
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay;
And I’ll there sit down, and make my will,
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.”

”O, what will you leave to your father dear,
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay?”
The silver shod steed that brought me here.
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.”

“What will you leave to your mother dear,
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay?”
“My velvet pall and silken gear.
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.”

“And what will you leave to your sister Ann,
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay?”
“My silken scarf and my golden fan.
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.”

“What will you leave to your sister Grace,
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay?”
“My bloody cloaths to wash and dress.
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.”

“What will you leave to your brother John,
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay?”
“The gallows-tree to hang him on,
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.”

“What will ye leave to your brother John’s wife,
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay?”
“The wilderness to end her life.
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.”

This fair lady in her grave was laid,
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay;
And a mass was o’er her said,
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.

But it would have made your heart right sair,
With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay;
To see the bridegroom rive his hair.
As the primrose spreads so sweetly.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:08 PM

Of all the incongruities between ballad text and refrain this one must take the prize! It's almost the level of burlesque. I can visualise Sam Cowell performing this, or Joe Grimaldi.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:08 PM

Hi,

Here's a version from Dorset that was collected in Boston. What I'm curious about are Barry's cryptic notes. This version was first published by Phillips Barry in his 1908 book, Folk Songs of the North Atlantic States. Also in The Ballad of the Cruel Brother by Phillips Barry; The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 28, No. 109 (Jul. - Sep., 1915), pp. 300-301. What Barry doesn't say, and it's misleading, is, that the text was from E. S. Porter's MS which was borrowed from Mrs. Dorothy Fuller Irving of Sturminster, Dorset. The melody was noted from Rosalind Fuller of Dorset, in Boston, MA.

Barry: The texts hitherto known--excluding, of course, those obviously defective--agree, in that the bride is killed by her brother because his consent to the wedding has not been sought. In the present version the situation is unique, the brother acting as the agent of his wife's ill will. A motive for the curse in the final stanza is thus clear.

1. 'Three Ladies played at cup and ball, -
(With a hey! and my lily gay!)
Three Knights there came among them all.
(The rose it smells so sweetly!)

2. And one of them was dressed in green, -
He asked me to be his queen.

3. And one of them was dressed in yellow, -
He asked me to be his fellow.

4. And one of them was dressed in red,-
He asked me with him to wed.

5. "But you must ask my father the King,
And you must ask my mother the Queen, -

6. "And you must ask my sister Anne,
And you must ask my brother John."

7. "Oh, I have asked your father the King,
And I have asked your mother the Queen, -

8. "And I have asked your sister Anne,
And I have asked your brother John."

9. Her father led her down the stairs,
Her mother led her down the hall.

10. Her sister Anne led her down the walk,
Her brother John put her on her horse.

11. And as she stooped to give him a kiss,
He stuck a penknife into her breast.

12. "Ride up, ride up, my foremost man!
Methinks my lady looks pale and wan!"

13. "Oh what will you leave to your father the King?"
"The golden coach that I ride in."

14. "And what will you leave to your mother the Queen?"
"The golden chair that I sat in."

15. "And what will you leave to your sister Anne?"
"My silver brooch and golden fan."

16. "And what will you leave to your brother John?"
"A pair of gallows to hang him on."

17. "And what will you leave to your brother John's wife?"
"Grief and misfortune all her life."

* * * *

It seems that Barry is implying that stanza 17 reveals the animosity directed not only to Brother John but also his wife and in some versions this children. Why would she harbor hatred for his family on her deathbed? Suggestions on what Barry means?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:31 PM

Richie,
Mrs. Dorothy Fuller Irving's Dorset text is near identical to the one recorded by Helen Hartness Flanders & Marguerite Olney from Edith Ballinger Price, of Rhode Island, who learned it from an old lady of Massachusetts c.1914:
https://soundcloud.com/user-860765554/edith-ballinger-price-three-ladies-played-

"Three Ladies Played at Ball" - Sung by Edith Ballenger Price, Newport, Rhode Island, 10-25-1945.

Three ladies played at cup and ball,
With a hey and a lady gay!
Three knights there came among them all,
The rose that[1*] smells so sweetly!

And one of them was dressed in red,
He asked me with him to wed.

And one of them was dressed in yellow,
He asked me to be his fellow.

And one of them was dressed in green,
He asked me to be his queen.

"Oh, you must ask my father the king
And you must ask my mother the queen."

"And you must ask my sister Anne
And you must ask my brother John."

[two verses are missing here.

Curiously the recording actually contains these verses which are missing from the transcription:

"Oh, I have asked your father the king
And I have asked your mother the queen.

"And I have asked your sister Anne
And I have asked your brother John."]

Her father the king led her down the hall,
Her mother the queen led her down the stairs.

Her sister Anne led her down the path,
Her brother John sat her on her horse.

And as she bent to give him a kiss
He stuck a[2*] penknife into her breast.

"Now, up and ride, my foremost man!
My lady fair looks pale and wan!"

"Oh, what will you leave to your father the king?"
"The golden chair that I sit in!"

"And what will you leave to your mother the queen?"
"The golden coach that I ride in!"

"And what will you leave to your sister Anne?"
"My silver brooch and ivory fan!"

"And what will you leave to your brother John?"
"A pair of gallows to hang him on!"

[1*] Miss Price sings "it" on the recording.
[2*] Miss Price sings "his" on the recording.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:38 PM

A small correction:
Her name is actually Ballinger, not Ballenger, as stated in the Flanders book and in Bronson and the date is October 23rd, according to the sound recording.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:49 PM

Ancient curses are often not only directed to the receiver of the curse, but to his family and estate as well. An alternative meaning in this version could be that since John was asked and his wife wasn't, that his wife was insulted and directed her husband to take revenge for her. Though I think in the earliest versions he forgets to ask her brother.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 10:11 PM

Hi,

Ty Steve for a different take on the two "John was asked" ballads. It seems to me just as likely that the "he was asked" stanzas are simply corrupt and forgot that the bridegroom forgot. Certainly the John Clare version seems like a corruption ("lover" for brother") since it doesn't repeat "lover John" the second time,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 09:13 AM

I'm inclined to agree with you, Richie.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 04:41 PM

Hi,

Child 11D is a fragment, but seems rather to be a version of Child 10 and I've listed it there. The refrain, however, matches neither Child 10 nor 11. D is taken second hand in America from a lady who was a native of County Kerry, Ireland.

1 There were three ladies playing at ball,
Farin-dan-dan and farin-dan-dee
There came a white knight, and he wooed them all.
With adieu, sweet honey, wherever you be

2 He courted the eldest with golden rings,
Farin-dan-dan and farin-dan-dee
And the others with many fine things.
And adieu, sweet honey, wherever you be

Child 11K was taken from Notes and Queries (1869) as "sung in Cheshire amongst the people in the last century" but hardly qualifies as a version. After a similar "three ladies playing at ball" opening stanza, three knights propose to the ladies who reject them-- there is no wedding and therefore no murder.

1 There were three ladies playing at ball,
      Gilliver, Gentle, and Rosemary
There came three knights and looked over the wall.
      Sing O the red rose and the white lilly

2    The first young knight, he was clothed in red,
      Gilliver, Gentle, and Rosemary
And he said, 'Gentle lady, with me will you wed?'
      Sing O the red rose and the white lilly

3    The second young knight, he was clothed in blue,
      Gilliver, Gentle, and Rosemary
And he said, 'To my love I shall ever be true.'
      Sing O the red rose and the white lilly

4    The third young knight, he was clothed in green,
      Gilliver, Gentle, and Rosemary
And he said, 'Fairest maiden, will you be my queen?'
      Sing O the red rose and the white lilly

5    The lady thus spoke to the knight in red,
      Gilliver, Gentle, and Rosemary
'With you, sir knight, I never can wed.'
      Sing O the red rose and the white lilly

6    The lady then spoke to the knight in blue,
      Gilliver, Gentle, and Rosemary
And she said, 'Little faith I can have in you.'
      Sing O the red rose and the white lilly

7    The lady then spoke to the knight in green,
      Gilliver, Gentle, and Rosemary
And she said, 'Tis at court you must seek for a queen.'
      Sing O the red rose and the white lilly

8    The three young knights then rode away,
      Gilliver, Gentle, and Rosemary
And the ladies they laughed, and went back to their play.
      Singing O the red rose and the white lilly

Comments? Since this thread is getting long a new thread will be started in a few days and begin with the Carpenter versions of Child 12. Thanks for the comments and posts everyone,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 05:24 PM

Re. The Lane catalogue entry for Fine Flowers of the Valley. Roud does give the date as 1795.

The full entry from the Lane catalogue is:

---

839. Fine flowers of the valley. To which
are added, Frennet Hall, and My Nanny O.
1795 sm. 16°. pp.8. Wdct on t.p.
                                                                  33.11
The first piece is in the form of the ballad of the
"Cruel brother" given in Herds " Scottish songs,"
i. 88. Child, No. 11 (i. 148).

"The modern, and extremely vapid, ballad of,
'Frennet Hall' appeared originally (I suppose) in
Herd's 'Scottish songs,' 1776, i. 142." Child, iv.
39. The old ballad, "The fire of Frendraught,"
(Child, No. 196) tells the same story in greater
detail.

---

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 06:09 PM

Yes it seems the street lit printers in Scotland were using the published collections to fill up their chapbooks, thus recirculating particular versions. Here we have examples of Herd and Jamieson being used and I'm pretty certain Scott's Minstrelsy was treated in the same way. Of course some of the upmarket printers also raided Percy.


FWIW 11D appears to be a hybrid of 10 & 11.
Yes 11K should not really be accepted as a version of 11 by modern standards, a one-off rewrite perhaps.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Kevin Werner
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 06:34 AM

I was thinking about Child 11D.
As far as I know in none of the other Child 11 Cruel Brother versions does a knight offer golden rings or any such gift to a woman.

The stanza,

He courted the eldest with golden rings,
And the others with many fine things.

really belongs to Child 10 The Twa Sisters.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 11:03 AM

Absolutely!

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 09:13 AM

Hi,

My notes and UK versions are here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/english-and-other-versions--11-the-cruel-brother.aspx

Another thread will be started shortly for Child 12: Lord Randal,

Please post comments here,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 10:09 AM

Hi Richie
Taking a leaf from the FSE thread I have just started to reread Gerould and pp17-19 have some very good info on Child 12.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 06:38 PM

Hi Steve,

Great. I've already started the next thread. Please email me the appropriate pages. Looks like there are about 20-25 Carpenter versions,

Richie