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Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3

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Subject: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 23 May 18 - 04:00 PM

Hi,

This is a new thread. We're moving on to James Madison Carpenter Collection versions of Child 9: Fair Flower o Northumberland. Soon the James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2 thread will be closed. Please direct all comments to this thread.

Here's an older version of Child 9 from the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, pp. 04842-04843, with several corrupt stanzas:

    "Fair Flooer o Northumberland," sung by Mrs. A. Lyall of Skene, Dunecht, Aberdeenshire, c.1880. Learned about 50 years ago from her mother, Mrs Ella Roy. Her mother lived in Lyne of Skene and learned ballads from her father and grandfather.

Ae Scottish prisoner was makin' his moan[1],
O gin her love it was easily won,
"O gin I had but a lady to woo,
I would mak her a lady, and that would do."

Ae provost's daughter was walkin' alone,
O but her love it was easily won,
She heard this Scottish prisoner makin his moan,
And she the fair Flooer o' Northumberland.

She hied her to her father's stable,
O but her love it was easily won,
And she's stow'd a steed baith stoot an' able,
To carry then baith to fair Scotland.

As they rode ower the first Scottish moor,
He says, "O but your love was easily won,
Get ye back home. . . . . . ,
Get ye back to Northumberland.

"Hae pity on me as I had on thee,
Althoch my love was easily won,
For a cook in your kitchen I should be,
. . . .


What wye could I tak pity on thee?
Althoch your love it was easily won."
For I hae a wife and bairnies three,
To care for in auld Scotland.

A cook in your kitchen I should be,
Althoch my love it was easily won."
"My lady has no use for such as thee,
So get ye back to Northumberland.

Laith was he this young lady to kill,
Althoch her love it was easily won,
So he bought her an auld horse and hired an auld man,
And hurl'd her bak to Northumberland.

On this bonnie lassie her father did froon,
"O but your love was easily won!
Ye followed a rebel, a wretch was he,
And ye aye the fair Flooer o' Northumberland."

On this bonnie lassie her mother did smile,
"O but your love was easily won!
But ye're nase the first that the Scots hae beguiled,
An' ye're welcome bak to Northumberland."

"Ye sanna[2] want siller, an ye sanna want fee,
Althoch your love it was easily won,
An' ye sanna want gowd to buy another man wi',
And ye aye the fair Flooer o' Northumberland."

_________________________________

1. originally: Ae Scottish prisoner was makin' his moan,
"O gin I had but a lady to woo,
O gin her love it was easily won,
I would mak her a lady, and that would do."
2. sanna, also "shanna" for "shall not"

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 23 May 18 - 04:45 PM

Hi,

Here's another older version of Child 9 from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, pp. 04847-04848.

    The Fair Flooer o Northumberland- sung by John Rogie of Mains o Glen Carvie, Strahdon, Aberdeenshire, c.1871. Learned over 50 years ago from Rob Farquharson of Corgarff. Collected in 1931 by Carpenter.

1. A lady went oot to tak the air,
O that her love was sae easily won,
She heard a young gentleman sighin' sair,
As he lay in her father's prison strong.

2. "Gin some bonnie lassie wid pity me,
O that her love would be easily won,
I wid mak her a lady o high degree,
I wid mak her a lady in fair Scotland."

3. She went tae her father's bedroom,
O that her love was sae easily won,
An' she's stolen the keys o sae many fine locks,
And she's lowsed him oot o his prison sae strong.

4. She went tae her father's stable,
O that her love was sae easily won,
And she's stolen a steed baith ready an' able,
To carry them baith tee brave Scotland.

5. But when they cam yon booers within,
O that her love was sae easily won,
Get aff my steed ye brazen-faced whoor,
An' go get ye bak tae Northumberland.

6. "A cook in your kitchen I will be
O that my love was sae easily won,
. . . .
. . . .

7. "A cook in your kitchen ye canna be,
O that yer love was sae easily won,
For my mistress don't choose such hissies as thee,
Sae gae get ye bak tae Nothumberland."

8. "If ye'll tak me by the middle sae sma',
O that my love was sae easily won,
An' ye'll heave me oot ower yon high castle wall,
For I daur nae gang bak tae Nothumberland."

9. The Laddie was left his lassie to kill,
O that her love was sae easily won,
So he bocht an auld horse an' hired an auld man,
An' sent her safe bak tae Nothumberland.

* * * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 25 May 18 - 09:15 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/10/115, Cylinder 114. This version is short and complete. The second line is a refrain throughout. The original title, crossed out was the refrain, "Maid's Love Whiles is Easy Won."

The Fair Flooer o Northumberland- sung by Bell Duncan of Lambhill, Insch about 1931.

1. The Bailie's[1] dachter's gane doon the toon,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
To hear the prisoner makin' his moan;
He says, "I'm a free lord frae fair Scotland."

2. "Gin some fair maid wid borrow me,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
A son or a husband I wid be,
For I'm a free lord frae fair Scotland."

3. She's deen her till her father's ha',
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
An' stowen the keys tee the prison wa',
To lat him win free tee fair Scotland.

4. She's deen her till her mither's gowd,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
An' she's teen oot a beerly howd[2],
To carry them baith tee fair Scotland.

5. She's deen her till her father's stable,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
An' she's teen oot a guid steed an' an able,
To carry them baith tee fair Scotland.

6. Bet they hadna ridden ower monny a moss,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
Till he bade her loop aff o' her father's best horse,
An' she micht gae back tee Northumberland.

7. For, see nae ye yon castle?" said he
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
"There I hae a wife an' bairnies three,
An' I'm nae a free lord is fair Scotland."

8. "It's a cook in your kitchie I wid be,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
"Bet I canna afford sic a cook as thee,
Sae gae get ye back tee Northumberland."

9. He nae bein' willin' ti dee her nae wrong,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
He boct an ald horse, an' hired an ald man.
An' he sent her back tee Northumberland.

10. Ben cam her father, bein' sae bold,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
Says, "Ye been a Scottish heiress, scarce sixteen years old,
How dare ye come back tee Northumberland."

11. Ben cam her mither, bein' sae mild,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
She's nae the first that the Scots has beguiled."
Says, "Welcome back tee Northumberland."

12. "She sanna want gowd, she sanna want gear,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
An' gowd an' siller will get her anither,
An' she's aye the fair Flooer o' Northumberland.
________________

1. bailiff's
2. "bridely sum," also written "bierly howd," the MS has "big lump" which is not a literal translation.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 18 - 08:24 AM

"Beerly"? Can't find it in the Scots dictionaries.

(This kind of "howd" is said to be restricted to Banffshire.)


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 26 May 18 - 11:05 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, pp. 04845-04846. Jessie Ann Weir was b. 1866, married Alexander B. Campbell-- also known as Mrs. A. B. Campbell (Mrs. Alexander Campbell). Inconsistent dialect.

The Flooer o Northumberland- sung by Mrs. Jesse Campbell of Hassie Wells, Rothienorman about 1931.

1. A rich provost's daughter's was walking alone,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
She heard a young man he was making great moan;
As he lay in the prison so strong."

2. "If some kind lady would set me free,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
I would mak her a lady o' higher degree,
If she'd loose me oot o the prison so strong."

3. She's ventured into her father's beside,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
She's stolen the keys of many fine lock,
And she's loosed him oot o the prison so strong.

4. She's ventured into her father's stable,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
She's stolen the steed which was ready and able,
To carry the man to fair Scotland.

5. When they came to yon Scotch moor,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
Ye'll get out of my presence ye brazen-faced hoar,
And go, get ye back to Northumberland.

6. Oh that's nae the promise that ye made to me,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
"Ye's to mak me as lady o higher degree,
If I's loose ye oot o prison sae strong."

7. "Have pity, have pity, Oh that canna be,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
For I hae a wife in my ain countree,
So go back to Northumberland."

8. "A cook in your kitcheen I will be,
Oh but my love it was easy won,
I'd serve your lady richt modestly,
For I canna gang back to Northumberland."

9. "A cook in my kitcheen you canna be,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
We canna afford such maids as thee,
So go, get ye back to Northumberland."

10. "Ye'll tak me by the middle sae sma',
Oh but my love it was easy won,
Ye'll throw me ower yon high castle wa',
For I canna gang back to Northumberland."

11. When he saw that her mind was so,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
He bocht her an ald horse, an' hired an ald man.
An' he's driven her back to Northumberland.

12. When she cam her father before,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
"Ye'll get out o my presence, you brazen-faced hoar,
And go get my steed back to Northumberland."

13. When she [cam] her mother before,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
You're nae the first that the Scotch have beguiled."
An' ye're aye the flooer o' Northumberland.

14. "Ye canna want gowd and ye canna want gear,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
Ye canna want fee to gain your love wi',
An' ye're aye the flooer o' Northumberland.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 26 May 18 - 11:17 PM

Hi Lighter,

I think it's supposed to be "bierly." In her last stanza "sanna" similar to "canna," also appears as "shanna," for "shall not" and gear= possessions

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 26 May 18 - 11:35 PM

Lighter,

I checked the original Bell Duncan MS (there are two copies, a neater second copy) and next to "beerly howd" is typed (big lump) for "big lump of gowd (gold)." That's crossed out in pencil. It's also written "bierly howd" in pencil on right side.

James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/10/115, Cylinder 114, 00:00
https://www.vwml.org/search?q=RN25%20Carpenter&is=1

The original title, crossed out was "Maid's Love Whiles is Easy Won,"

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 28 May 18 - 09:25 AM

Hi,

Fragment from: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/I, p. 08209, inconsistent dialect. Only two stanzas with music, the rest has been taken from his wife's version (Stanzas 3-14) which has "provost's daughter" in the first line.

The Flooer o Northumberland- sung by Alexander B. Campbell of Hassiewells, Rothienorman about 1931.

1. A rich bailie's daughter was walking her lane,
O but her love it was easy won,
She heard a young man, he was making great moan;
As he lay in the prison so strong."

2. "If any kind lady would set me free,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
I would mak her a lady o' highest degree,
If she loose me out o' the prison so strong."

[3. She's ventured into her father's bedside,
O but her love it was easy won,
She's stolen the keys o many a fine lock,
And she's lowsed him oot o the prison sae strong.

4. When they cam to yon Scottish moor,
O but her love it was easy won,
"Ye'll get oot o my presence, ye brazen-faced whore,
And go get ye back to Northumberland.

5. "O that's the promise that ye gae to me,
O but my love it was easy won,
Ye's to mak me a lady o higher deegree,
If I lowse ye oot o the prison sae strong."

6. "Hae pity, hae pity, hae pity," she cried,
"O but my love it was easy won,
Hae pity on me as I had on thee,
When I lowse ye oot o the prison sae strong."

7. "Hae pity, hae pity, O thant canna be,
O but your love it was easy won,
For I hae a wife in my ain countrie,
So go, get ye back to Northumberland."

8. "A cook in your kitchen I will be,
O but my love it was easy won,
I'd serve your lady richt modestly,
For I canna gang back to Northumberland."

9. "A cook in my kitchen ye canna be,
O but your love it was easy won,
We canna afford such maids as thee,
So go, get ye back to Northumberland."

10. "Ye'll tak me by the middle sae sma',
O but my love it was easy won,
Ye'll throw me ower yon high castle wa',
For I canna gang back to Northumberland."

11. When he saw that her mind was so,
O but your love it was easy won,
He bocht an ald horse, and hired an ald man.
And he's driven her back to Northumberland.

12. When she cam her father before,
O but your love it was easy won,
"Ye'll get oot o my presence, ye brazen-face whore,
And go get my steed back to Northumberland."

13. When she cam her mother, before,
O but your love it was easy won,
"Ye're nae the first that the Scots hae beguiled."
And ye're aye the Flooer o' Northumberland.

14. "Ye sanna want gowd, she sanna want gear,
Althoch your love it was easy won,
Ye sanna want fee to gain your love wi',
And ye're aye the Flooer o' Northumberland.]
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 May 18 - 10:18 AM

Dict of Scots Language - bierly - adj. Stalwart, well-built, powerful. Also fig. Gen.Sc.

It would be curious in association with howd, which the dictionary gives the meaning of a large amount, but in a figurative sense might work.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 28 May 18 - 10:50 AM

Thanks Mick,

Here's a single penultimate stanza with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/15, Disc Side 015, 04:28 from Mrs Jessie Davidson of Willow Cottage, Tugnet, Speybay, Morayshire Scotland, 1931. She was born 17 September, 1863 in Dufftown as Jessie Duncan.

Fair Flooer of Northumberland- sung by Mrs Jessie Davidson, Willow Cottage, Tugnet, Speybay, Morayshire in 1931.

On this bonnie lassie her mother did smile,
"O but your love it was easily won,
You are nae the first that the Scotch has beguiled.
Welcome back to Northumberland."
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 28 May 18 - 11:29 AM

Hi,

Fragment from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, p. 04844

The Fair Flooer o' Northumberland- sung by Miss Bathia Fowlie, aged 63, of Middle Muir, Methlick, Aberdeenshire. She got the ballad from her mother who sang and recited while knitting.

   He bocht an old horse an' he hired an ald man
And sent her safe back to Northumberland.

On this bonnie lassie her father did frown,
"O but your love was sae easily won!
Ye've letten awa' a traitor, a clown,
And you the fair Flooer o' Northumberland."

But on this bonnie lassie her mother did smile,
"What thoch your love was easily won,
You are nae the first that the Scots hae beguiled,
Thoch ye are the fair Flooer o' Northumberland."

"Ye winna want meat, and ye winna want fee,
Waht thoch your love was easily won,
An' ye winna want gowd to buy another man wi',
And ye'll aye be the Flooer o' Northumberland."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 28 May 18 - 11:30 AM

Richie, "sanna" is "shall not."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 28 May 18 - 11:35 AM

TY Lighter, got that and changed it. Also appears as "shanna" which is better,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 28 May 18 - 12:44 PM

Hi,

James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, pp. 04849-04850

Flower of Northumberland - sung by Annie Shirier of Kininmonth, Aberdeenshire, about 1910 collected Grieg from his article in Folk-songs of the North-East (see also: Last Leaves).

1. The provost's daughter's was walking alone,
Oh but her love was easy won,
She heard a Scotch prisoner making his moan;
She was the Flower of Northumberland."

2. "Oh, gin a may(girl) would borrow me,
Oh gin her love was easy won,
I wad mak her a lady o' high degree,
If she'd loose me oot o this prison sae strong."

3. She hae gane to her father's bedstock,
Oh but her love was easy won,
She's stolen the keys of many fine lock,
And she's loosed him oot o the prison so strong.

4. She's done to her father's stable,
Oh but her love was easy won,
And she's stolen a steed that was baith fleet and able,
Tae carry him on tee fair Scotland.

5. As they were baith riding across the Scotch moor,
Oh but her love was easy won,
Gang doon from my horse, I can have you no more,
I am now riding safe on my own Scotch muir.

6. For I hae a wife in my ain countree,
Oh but your love was easy won,
I canna dee naething wi' a miss like thee,
So you'll better gang back to Northumberland."

7. "A cook in your kitchen I will be,
Altho' my love it was easy won,
I'll wait at your table and serve your leddy,
For I canna gang back to Northumberland."

8. "It's cook in my kitchen you canna be,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
My leddy she cann hae servants like thee,
So ye'll better gang back tee Northumberland."

9. Laith[1] was he the lassie tae tine,
Alhto' her love it was easy won,
He bocht her an auld horse, an' hired an auld man.
An' he sent her safe back to Northumberland.

10. When she gaed in, her father did frown,
And said, "Oh but your love it was easy won,
"To follow a Scot, when you're scarcely eighteen,
And you were the flower o' Northumberland."

11. But when she gaed ben her mother before,
And says, "Oh but your love it was easy won,
But you're nae the first that the Scotch hae beguiled."
And you're welcome back to Northumberland.

12. "Ye sanna wint bried(bread) and ye sanna wint wine,
Altho' your love it was easy won,
And ye sanna wint siller to buy a man wi',
And you're aye the Flower o' Northumberland.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:09 PM

Carpenter Collection now searchable on line-
https://www.vwml.org/projects/carpenter-folk-online

carpenter collection


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 31 May 18 - 08:51 PM

Hi,

There are 130 entries for Child 10 in the Carpenter Collection-- most of them are duplicates (over a dozen versions). Here's a fragment of Child 10 from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/H, p. 11912. This is associated with the standard Scottish text, Child M from Aberdeenshire.

"Binorie" sung by Alex Robb of New Deer, Aberdeenshire, c. 1931

There wis twa maidens lived in a ha',
Binorie, Oh and Binorie,
And they had ae lad 'tween them twa,
And they ca'ed him hte bonny miller's laddie.

Sister, Oh sister will ye tak my hand,
Binorie, Oh and Binorie,
and we'll go and see our father's fishing boat come to land,
On the bonny mill dams o' Binorie.

The eldest stood upon a steen,
[Binorie, Oh and Binorie,]
And the youngest came and shoved her in,
[On the bonny mill dams o' Binorie.]
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 11:38 PM

Hi,

Maybe someone can help with the origin of Child 10A: In 1852 Edward Rimbault said in Notes and Queries that he had a copy of a broadside "The Miller's Melody" which was "printed for Francis Grove" dated 1656. He gave a version titled, "The Miller and the King's Daughter" which is Child A and attributed it to James Smith. E. David Gregory (Victorian Songhunters) said Rimbault got his copy from The Anthony Wood Collection in the Bodleian Collection, Oxford. Problem is: There's no record of any broadside titled "Miller's Melody" or "The Miller and the King's Daughter" or that it was in Wit Restor'd, 1658 although it is in an 1817 reprint but it may not be reprinted exactly. Where is the 1658 issue of Wit Restor'd? Why is Jamieson's text different than Rimbault's? Why is James Smith attributed as the author? Is there a 1655 or 1665 edition of Facetiae, Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation?

Just wondering?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 07:25 AM

"Musarum Deliciae: or, The Muses' Recreation," by Sir John Mennes (London: Henry Herringman), appeared in 1655 with another edition in 1656.

"Facetiae" does not appear in the title.

According to the English Short Title Catalogue, which lists no 1665 edition.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 07:49 AM

Sir John Mennes, "Wit Restor'd In severall select poems Not formerly publisht" (London: R. Pollard, N. Brooks, and T. Dring, 1658), pp. 51-54:

The Miller and the King's Daughter

By Mr. Smith.

There were two Sisters they went a playing,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe-a-
To see their fathers ships come sayling in
With a hy downe, downe, a downe-o-

And when they came unto the sea-brym,
With, &c,
The elder did push the younger in;
With, &c.

O Sister, O Sister, take me by the gowne,
With, &c,
And drawe me up upon the dry ground.
With, &c.

O Sister, O Sister, that may not bee,
With, &c.
Till salt and oatmeale grow both of a tree;
With, &c.

Somtymes she sanke, Somtymes she swam,
With, &c.
Untill she came unto the mil-dam;
With, &c.

The miller runne hastily downe the cliffe,
With &c,
And up he be took her withouten her life,
With, &c.

What did he doe with her brest bone?
With, &c.
He made him a viall to play thereupon,
With, &c.

What did he doe with her fingers so small?
With, &c.
He made him peggs to his Violl withall;
With, &c.

What did he doe with her nose-ridge?
With, &c.
Unto his Violl he made him a bridge,
With, &c.

What did he do with her Veynes so blewe?
with, &c.
He made him strings to his Viole thereto;
with, &c.

What did he doe with her eyes so bright?
with, &c.
Upon his Violl he playd at first sight;
with, &c.

What did he doe with her tongue soe rough?
with, &c.
Unto the violl it spake enough;
with, &c.

What did he doe with her two shinnes?
with, &c.
Unto the violl they danc't Moll Syms;
with, &c.

Then bespake the treble string,
with, &c.
O yonder is my father the King;
with, &c.

Then bespake the second string,
with &c.
O yonder sitts my mother the Queen:
with, &c.

And then bespake the stringes all three;
with, &c.
O yonder is my sister that drowned mee.
with, &c.

Now pay the miller for his payne,
with, &c.
And let him bee gone in the divels name.
with, &c.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 08:57 AM

It's probably off-topic as far as the Carpenter versions are concerned, but the history of this ballad interests me a lot. There's the early 'Miller and the King's Daughter' reproduced above, which looks like a burlesque, and similar though not identical burlesque versions from the 19th century under Child 10L. Aside from those, all of the variants from England that I know of are of the 'Bow Down' type, with no supernatural element.

The Appalachian variants are likewise the 'Bow Down' type, apart from a couple of rogue versions with 'Wind and Rain' or 'Jenny Flower Gentle' refrains, which are the only US versions with a magical fiddle or harp.

Then there are various Scots examples, mostly including magical instruments, ranging from the 'Bows of London' and 'Swan Swims so Bonny' refrains, to all of the 'Binnorie' / 'Edinboro' variants which Bronson seemed to think were derived from Scott's 'Minstrelsie'. 'Binnorie' is vanishingly rare in the US.

So my question is, what's the oldest example of the 'Bow Down' type? Its currency in Appalachia would suggest that it was around in Britain by the mid-18th century, but it's very different from 'The Miller and the King's Daughter'.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 09:06 AM

Smith's poem is grotesque, but I'm not sure what it might "burlesque."

Its macabre quality reminds me strongly of the German folk tales collected 150 years later by the Brothers Grimm.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 09:20 AM

Perhaps I'm misusing the word 'burlesque'.

What I'm wondering (amongst other things) is, how does Smith's poem relate to the broader tradition of the ballad?


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 09:49 AM

Hi,

TY Lighter

So do we assume that "Musarum Deliciae, Or The Muses Recreation: Conteining Severall Select Pieces of Sportive Wit" by James Smith; publisher Herringman, 1655 is the same copy? That edition is at google books- no preview.

Can you provide a link to the 1658 copy? I assume there's also a 1656 copy.

Why does Rimbault's copy have the second chorus as "With a hy downe, downe, a downe-a" instead of "downe-o"?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 10:17 AM

Brian,

Here are my notes for the two versions 1770 and 1775 from Parsons and the first stanza (I have the original MSS copies from Harvard Library):

'There was a king lived in the North Country'- Version Y; Communicated to Percy, April 7. 1770, and April 19, 1775, by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent: "taken down from the mouth of the spinning-wheel, if I may be allowed the expression." [There are two versions that Parsons gave Percy, the second from 1775 marked-- "imperfect" by Parsons? was used by Child. The second stanza given by Parsons in 1770 is missing from Child's text. An additional stanza was added at the end in 1775 which is not in Parson's original 1770 text. This stanza does not fit because the stanza before it is missing. "River's" brim (1770) has been changed to "sea-side" brim (1775).]

   * * * * *
1    There was a king lived in the North Country,
      Hey down down dery[1] down
There was a king lived in the North Country,
      And the bough it was bent to me
There was a king lived in the North Country,
And he had daughters one, two, three.
      I'll prove true to my love,
      If my love will prove true to me.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 10:21 AM

Hi,

Barry in the 1930s labeled Child versions to DD but only mentions CC and DD but fails to say what Child AA and BB were. Anyone know?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 10:26 AM

Richie, the 1655 ed. contains "severall select pieces of sportive vvdit." The 1656, "severall pieces of poetique wit."

Each title page has "By Sr J.M. and Ja: S." (I.e., Sir John Mennes and Dr. James Smith.)

1655 has 87 pp. 1656, expanded, has 101.

The poem first appears in the 1656 ed.

Complete title pages:

Musarum deliciae: or, The Muses recreation. Conteining severall select pieces of sportive vvit. / By Sr J.M. and Ja:S. , London, : Printed for Henry Herringman, and are to be sold at his shop, at the signe of the Anchor in the New Exchange, 1655.

Musarum deliciae: or, The Muses recreation. Conteining severall pieces of poetique wit. / By Sr J.M. and Ja: S. , London, : Printed by J.G. for Henry Herringman, and are to be sold at his shop, at the signe of the Anchor in the New Exchange, 1656.

Wit restor'd in several select poems not formerly publish't. London : Printed for R. Pollard, N. Brooks, and T. Dring, and are to be sold at the Old Exchange, and in Fleetstreet, 1658.


The link I have is through the indispensable "Early English Books Online," which you may be able to access through the nearest university library.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 11:01 AM

TY Lighter,

Here's the text from Popular ballads and songs, from tradition, MSS., and scarce eds.; edited by Robert Jamieson, 1806 which he says comes from the 1656 edition of "Musarum Deliciae." There are numerous small differences which may be editorial-- the question is why are there differences. Jamieson's notes and text follow:

*From "Musarum Deliciae, or the Muse's recreation, containing several pieces of Poetique Wit, the second edit, by sir J. M. and A. S. 1656." It is also found in "Wit Restored, by J.S. London, 1658 and in Dryden's Miscellanies; and is said to be by Mr Smith.

THE MILLER AND THE KING'S DAUGHTER

There were two sisters, they went a-playing,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a;
To see their father's ships sailing in,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

And when they came into the sea brim,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a,
The elder did push the younger in,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

"O sister, sister, take me by the gown,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
And draw me up on the dry ground,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a'."

"O sister, O sister, that may not be,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a,
Till salt and oatmeal grow both of a tree,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a."

Somtymes she sank, sometimes she swam,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
Untill she came unto the milldam,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a'.

The miller run hastily down the cliffe,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a,
And up he betouk her withouten life,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

What did he doe with her brest bone,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a,
He made him a violl to play thereupon,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

What did he doe with her fingers so small,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
He made him peggs to his viol withall,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

What did he doe with her nose-ridge,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
Unto his violl he made him a bridge,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a'.

What did he with her veynes so blew,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
He made him strings to his viole thereto,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

What did he doe with her eyes so bright,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
Upon his violl he play'd at first sight,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a'.

What did he doe with her tongue so rough,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a?
Unto the violl it spoke enough,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

What did he doe with her two shinnes,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
Unto the violl they danct Moll Syins,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

Then bespake the treble string,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a,
"O yonder is my father the king,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a."

Then bespake the second string,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.
"O yonder sits my mother the queen,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a."

And then bespake the strings all three,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.
"O yonder is my sister that drowned mee,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a."

"Now pay the miller for his payne,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a;
And let him begone in the devil's name,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 02:45 PM

Intriguing!
I also am interested in this ballad. There are lots of anomalies we need to look into. We perhaps need to slow down on this one rather than hurrying through, and try to come to some useful conclusions or at least list the probabilities and possibilities.

The most pressing is perhaps to ascertain if there ever was an English broadside.

If indeed the broadside existed in the Wood Collection then the Bodleian will surely have a record of it, unless the Bodl acquired the collection after the broadside went missing.

Someone needs to check the full Stationers Register to see if it was actually registered to Francis Grove. I only have the abridged Rollins book and it's not in there.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 03:43 PM

Hi Steve,

I emailed the Bodleian library and told them that E. David Gregory wrote in Victorian Songhunters that Rimbault got the "Miller's Melody" broadside from the Anthony Wood Collection. I asked them if they had the broadside under either title since there is no record of it in their catalogue online. Neither "The Miller and the King's Daughter" nor "Miller's Melody" have shown up as a broadside in any searches at Copac, Google books, or Bodelian so the broadside is not only missing but seems to never have existed. If so, why did Rimbault fabricate that evidence and "Miller's Melody" title?

Here's the article by Edward F. Rimbault in Notes and Queries 1852 p. 591 (Child has p. 316.), which is nearly the identical text posted by Lighter from Musarum Deliciae 1658 (in the Musarum Deliciæ text the second refrain ends with an "o" as "With a hy downe, downe, a downe-o.":

"THE MILLERS MELODY," AN OLD BALLAD

The original ballad of "The Miller's Melody" is the production of no less a person than a "Doctor in Divinity," of whom the following are a few brief particulars.

James Smith was born about 1604, educated at Christ Church and Lincoln Colleges, in Oxford; afterwards naval and military chaplain to the Earl of Holland, and domestic chaplain to Thomas Earl of Cleveland. On the Restoration of Charles II. beheld several Church preferments, nnd ultimately became canon and "chauntor" in Exeter Cathedral. Ha was created D.D. in 1661, and quitted this life in 1667. Wood informs us he was much in esteem "with the poetical wits of that time, particularly with Philip Massinger, who call'd him his son."

I have an old "broadside" copy of the ballad in question, "Printed for Francis Grove, 1656," which is here transcribed, verbatim et literatim, for the especial benefit of your numerous readers. It may also be found in a rare poetical volume, entitled Wit Restored, 1658, and in Dryden's Miscellany Poems (second edition, which differs materially from the first).

The Miller And The King's Daughter         
By Mr. Smith

"There were two sisters they went playing,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe-a,
To see their father's ships come sayling in.
With a hy downe, downe, a downe-a.

"And when they came unto the sea-brym,
With, &c.
The elder did push the younger in;
With, &c.

"O sister, O sister, take me by the gowne,
With, &c.
And drawe me up upon the dry ground,
With, &c.

"O sister, O sister, that may not bee,
With, &c.
Till salt and oatmeale grow both of a tree,
With, &c.

"Sometymes she sanke, sometymes she swam,
With, &c.
Until she came unto the mill-dam;
With, &c.

"The miller runne hastily downe the cliffe,
With, &c.
And up he betook her withouten her life,
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her brest bone?
With, &c.
He made him a violl to play thereupon,
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her fingers so small?
With, &c.
He made him peggs to his violl withall;
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her nose-ridge?
With, &c.
Unto his violl he made him a bridge,
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her veynes so blew?
With, &e.
He made him strings to his violl thereto;
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her eyes so bright?
With, &c.
Upon his violl he played at first sight;
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her tongue so rough?
With, &c.
Unto the violl it spake enough;
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her two shinnes?
With, &c.
Unto the violl they danc'd Mall Syms;   
With, &c.

"Then bespake the treble string,
With, &c.
O yonder is my father the king;
With, &c.

"Then bespake the second string,
With, &c.
O yonder sitts my mother the queen;
With, &c.

"And then bespake the strings all three;
With, &c.
O yonder is my sister that drowned mee.
With, &c.

"Now pay the miller for his payne,
With, &c.
And let him bee gone in the divel's name.
With, &c."

As this old ditty turns upon the making "a viol," it may be as well to add that this instrument was the precursor of the violin: but while the viol was the instrument of the higher classes of society, the "fiddle" served only for the amusement of the lower. The viol was entirely out of use at the beginning of the last century.

Moll (or Mall) Symms (mentioned in the thirteenth stanza) was a celebrated dance tune of the sixteenth century. The musical notes may be found in Queen Elizabeth's Virginal Bonk, in the Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge; and in the curious Dutch collection, Neder Lanttche Oedenck clank, Uberlem, 1626.

Edward F. Rimbault.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 04:12 PM

I've searched the cyber version of "A transcript of the registers of the Worshipful Company of Stationers, from 1640-1708, A.D." without success.

Francis Grove is mentioned on 10 Jan. 1648/49 and on 11 Oct. 1653 only.

Neither case bears any obvious relevance to this discussion.

As a matter of interest, Mennes's "Musarum Delitiae [sic]" is entered at 1 June 1655.

I find no mention in the 1640-1708 Registers of any publication called "The Miller and the King's Daughter" or "The Miller's Melody," or any at all with "Miller" or "King's Daughter" in the title.

The same holds for the Registers of 1554-1640.

Presumably James Smith is credited as the author because he wrote or rewrote the piece as it appeared in 1658.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 05:06 PM

That's odd, Jon! Rollins gives the following entries for the earlier period.
Miller and King (1625)
The Miller and the Kinge (1625, probably same piece)
A Miller I am (1564)
The Miller's Daughter of Mannchester (1581).

It's well worth reading Child's headnotes to throw some light on origins. Generally Scandinavian versions are fairly recent and from oral tradition (Norse, Danish, Swedish) but he refers to one Icelandic version of the 17th century. That still leaves the very real possibility of an English origin and Smith as the author. I fully believe 17thc broadside ballads like Cruel Mother, Demon Lover, Lord Thomas & Fair Eleanor are the originals, so why not this one?

Rimbault may well have had a broadside of the same date 1656 printed by Grove in his possession. These items are extremely valuable and I'm certain there are still many out there in private collections . Where does it state that the broadside was from the Antony Wood Collection. Apart from anything else Wood may have sold/swapped his copy before it came to the Bodl. I cannot conceive that a highly esteemed antiquarian would lie about such a thing. Why not just say he got his copy from one of the other contemporary sources?


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 05:20 PM

A confusing aspect of 17thc pieces is those items that appeared in anthologies were often claimed by others to have been written by the compilers, as is often the case with D'Urfey's Pills. It may well be that Smith was simply one of the compilers. Child opines that the ballad may already have existed and that Smith might have added the 3 'burlesque' stanzas. Whilst this is possible it is still only conjecture.

BTW I have Grove's dates as 1620-1655. It might be possible to find out when he died, but often when a printer died his family carried on the press using the established name.

Going back to the origin question, where Scandinavian versions occur the vast majority have usually been translated into English in the 18th and 19th centuries, but it is quite likely that a few went in the opposite direction. In fact I'm pretty certain those few Danish versions of The Cruel Mother derive directly from Grundtvig's 1840 translation from Engelske into Danske.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 05:57 PM

Odd indeed, Steve! An artifact of HathiTrust Digital Library?

A search specifically for "[The] Miller and King" hits 16 Dec. 1624.

For "The Miller and the Kinge," "ultimo" (last day) June 1625.

For "The Miller's Daughter of Mannchester " 2 March 1581.

For "A Miller I Am" . . . Nothing!


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 06:08 PM

Just checked again under Rimbault's titles.

Still nothing.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 06:25 PM

Lighter,

The macabre folk tales similar to Child 10 are explored in Mackensen's "The Singing Bone," see also Thompson. Child 10 has been adapted in 1890 as an English fairy tale "Binnorie" by Joseph Jacob: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/binnorie--joseph-jacob--english-fairy-tales-1890.aspx

The Scandinavian variants are not analogues but derivative variants see " 'The Twa Sisters,' Going Which Way?" by Harbison Parker, 1951 who says, "Knut Liestol concludes concerning this perplexing ambiguity, in his study of 'Dei tvo systar,' that the likeliest explanation of this is, that the ballad first was composed in England or Scotland, there split itself into two versions, and both of these then came to Scandinavia by different paths, one to Norway (Iceland, the Faeroe Islands) and the other to Denmark." Phillips Barry, 1931, however says, "The diffusion of the ballad from Scandinavia to Britain has been rightly and generally accepted." I suppose Parker's study is a rebuttal to both of Barry's articles.

Barry was critical of Archer Taylor's 1929 study which separated the ballads into two forms: the English and Scottish forms.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 06:39 PM

Hi Steve,

Here's the quote and info about the broadside from Gregory who says that Harland also had been given a copy of the broadside by Rimbault:

https://books.google.com/books?id=qIycePVvVa4C&pg=PA238&dq=Victorian+Songhunters+Rimbault+Miller+and+the+King%27s+daughter&hl=en

Lighter, since there were two authors of Musarum Deliciæ, Mennes and Smith, anything submitted by Smith would have his name. He is not likely the author but he submitted the ballad.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 07:14 PM

Hi,

Here's Child's query from a Dec. 1800, Notes and Queries issue:

“The Miller And The King's Daughter.”— Jamieson, in his Popular Ballads and Songs, 1806, i. 315, prints: 1. copy of “The Miller and the King's Daughter,” as from the second edition of Musarum Deliciae, 1656. This copy presents two or three slight variations from Dr. Rimbault’s broadside of the same date, which is printed in "N&Q.,” 1st S. v. 591, and also from the copy in the 1817 reprint of Wit Restored (1658). The reprint of Musarum Deliciae: in the latter volume has not the ballad of “The Miller and the King’s Daughter,” and yet it was made with care by a person who had both the edition of 1655 and that of 1656 in his hands, which differ not in the least as to contents, according to that editor. Is there, nevertheless, a copy of Musarum Deliciae, 1656, which contains the ballad in question?

F. J. C.

Cambridge, Mass.


* * * *

This says the 1658 edition version (given by Lighter) was reprinted in 1817. Child was trying to verify the ballad in the earlier editions. He suggests that according to the editor the ballad submitted by Smith was printed in 1655 in the first edition (since it differed not in content),

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 07:32 PM

Hi,

I'm not sure where Gregory (Victorian Songhunters) got his information, since the part about Harland seems to be incorrect. When Harland printed three versions (one was Rimbault's), he never mentioned that he saw or had a copy of the broadside of Rimbault's, he only provided a 1656 date (same as Musarum Deliciae second edition):

Here are Harland's notes from "Ballads and Songs of Lancashire Chiefly Older Than the 19th Century" as edited by John Harland, 1865:

Again, Dr. Rimbault gives another version of the ballad, evidently earlier than that last cited, and which he states to be the production of a James Smith, D.D. (Oxford), born 1604, and died 1667 ; respecting whom Wood says “he was much in esteem with the poetical wits of the time, particularly with Philip Massinger, who called him his son.” We append this ballad (as printed from an old broadside copy of 1656), omitting the burden after the first verse:
* * * *

The text is the same as given by Rimbault in Notes and Queries.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 08:24 PM

Not sure why Smith cannot be the author, since there are no earlier ballad versions known and the book clearly says "By Mr. Smith."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 12:50 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/B, p. 11501. This version resembles Walter Scott's version, Child C.

"Bilnorie," sung by Peter Christie (b. 1870) of 21 Shore Road, Stonehaven, Kincardineshire about 1931.

1    There twa sisters lived in a booer,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
There was a knicht to be their wooer,
      By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

2    He courted the eldest wi' glove an' ring,
       Bilnorie O Bilnorie
But the youngest he loved abeen a' thing,
      By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

3   The eldest's heart was vexed saer,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
An' she envied her sister dear
       By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

4 The eldest said to the youngest een,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
Will ye gang an' see oor father's ships coming in,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O?

5. She's ta'en her sister by the hand,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And led her by the river strand,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

6. Her sister stood upon a steen,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And the eldest cam and shoved her in,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

6. O sister, sister, reach your hand,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And ye shall be heir o' all your land,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

7. "O sister, I'll not reach my hand,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And I shall be heir o' all your land,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

8. O sister, sister, reach your glove,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And Sweet William shall be your love,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

9. O sister, I'll not reach my glove,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And Sweet William shall better be my love,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

10   Sometimes she sank, sometimes she swam,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
Until she cam to the millet's dam,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

11. The millet's dochter was bakin breid,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And gaed for water as she need,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

11. "O father father, draw your dam,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
There's a mermaid or a milk-white swan,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O."

12. Her father hastened and drew the dam,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And there he found a drowned woman,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

13. He couldna see her yellow hair,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
For gowd and pearls hung to her ear,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

14. He couldna see her lily feet,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
Her golden girdle hung so deep,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

15. "Sair will they be, whae'er they be,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
The heart that lives to weep for thee,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O."

16. When by there cam a harper fine,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
He harped the nobles when they dine,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

17. He made a harp o her breistbone,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
Wha's tune would melt the heart o steen,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 12:58 PM

Hi Lighter,

Smith could be the author, but considering the range and scope of the ballad it's more likely his arrangement or perhaps something he copied from print-- as it is the same text given by Rimbault from the mystery broadside (if the broadside is after 1655 Smith could be the source). Anything he submitted whether he wrote it or not would have his name attached. So yes, it's possible he wrote it, I just don't think so. Child says:

Both of these name "Mr. Smith" as the author; that is, Dr. James Smith, a well-known writer of humorous verses, to whom the larger part of the pieces in Wit Restor'd has been attributed. If the ballad were ever in Smith's hands, he might possibly have inserted the three burlesque stanzas, 11-13; but similar verses are found in another copy (L a), and might easily be extemporized by any singer of sufficiently bad taste.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 04:24 PM

Since the Rimbault broadside - if it exists - gives the same text, Smith could just as easily be the author, no matter when the sheet was published. The broadside might have been reprinted from the book, with or without Smith's name on it.

That seems most likely to me, but there is simply no way to know.

If the broadside was reprinted from the book (already accounted for in 1656), would the Stationers Register be expected to have an entry for it?


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 05:57 PM

Unfortunately not all broadsides were registered for some reason. I don't know if registration would be required if the ballad had already been published.

It would be worth checking through 'Wit Restor'd' to see if any of the other pieces were of anything like this style. The couplet with refrains doesn't appear to be that common even at this early stage. Off hand the only other one I can think of is 'Duke's Daughter's Cruelty (Cruel Mother). Robin Hood ballads of course.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 07:41 PM

Hi,

A different ending with a varied 2nd refrain from James Madison Carpenter Collection (JMC/1/8/1/A, p. 11483) associated with the standard Scottish text of Child M also taken from Aberdeenshire.

"Binorie,"sung by William Walker (b. 1870) of Bonnykelly, New Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire; learned about 1900 from Alex McDonald.

1    Twa Scottish[1] sisters lived in a booer,
      Binorie O Binorie
The miller's bonnie laddie a-courtin' then came,
      By the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

2    He's courted the eldest wi' diamonds an' rings,
       Binorie O Binorie
He's courted the youngest wi' far better things,
      She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.

3   He's courted the eldest in her father's ha',
      Binorie, O Binorie
He's courted the youngest amon' the sheets sae sma',
       By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

4 "O sister, O sister, gin ye'll tak a walk,
       Binorie, O Binorie
Ye'll hear the bonnie blackbirds a whistlin' ower their tunes,
An' ye'll see the bonnie miller o Binorie."

5. "O sister, O sister, I will tak a walk,
       Binorie, O Binorie
I will hear the bonnie blackbirds a whistlin' ower their tunes,
But I'll nae see the bonnie miller o Binorie."

5. They've walked up, and they've walked doon,
       Binorie, O Binorie
They've walked doon by yon bonnie plantain side,
An' doon to the dams o Binorie.

6. They've walked up, an' they've walked doon,
       Binorie, O Binorie
Until the eldest did ding the youngest in,
Tee the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

7. "O sister, O sister, if you'll tak my hand,
      Binorie O Binorie
Ye'll get a part o my gowd an' a part o my land,
And ye'll get the bonnie miller o Binorie.

8. "It wanna for your gowd that I dang you in,
      Binorie O Binorie
Because ye are sae fair an' I'm sae very din,
You can droon in the dams o Binorie."

9   She floated up, an' she floated doon,
      Binorie O Binorie
She sank tae the bottom ne'er to rise again,
She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.

10. The miller's servant girlie went oot tae the dam,
      Binorie O Binorie
Twas for some water to wash the miller's hands,
Frae the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

11. "O miller, miller, there's fishes in your dam,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Or there is a young lady or else your white swan,
Swimmin' up an' doon the dams o Binorie."

12. They fished up, an' they fished doon,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
Until they got her on a stane,
She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.

13. He didna ken her by her gowden yellow hair,
      Binorie O Binorie
But weel did he ken her by the gowden rings he gae her,
She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.

14. Mony's the ane was at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, O Binorie
An' the bonnie miller laddie died at her grave makin'
She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.

___________________________________

1. In the music MS: "Twa courted sisters. . ."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 08:31 PM

Hi,

Here's an older fragment of Walker's version from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08721. Stanza 6 is two stanzas combines (5 lines). I've added some text in brackets to make the end more complete.

"Binorie," sung by Mrs. Mary Thain of Castle St., Banff, learned before 1870 from Kate McClennan.

1    He courted the one with a gay gowd ring,
       Binorie and Benorie
He courted the youngest witha far better thing,
      She's the bonnie millert's lass o Binorie.

2. O sister, O sister, it's we'll tak a walk,
       Binorie and Benorie,
And we'll hear the blackbirds a whistlin ower the tunes,
Bet we winna see the bonnie millert frae Binorie.

3. They've walked up by bonnie plantain side,
       Binorie and Benorie
The eldest dang the youngest into the dam,
An' doon to the dams o Binorie.

4. O sister, O sister, it's ye'll take my hand,
      Binorie and Benorie
Ye'll have half-pairt o my gowd an' the third-pairt o my land,
And ye'll be the millert's lass o Binorie.

5. "It wisna for that that I dang you in,
      Binorie and Benorie
Because ye wis sae fair an' I sae dun,
An' ye'll droon in the dams o Binorie.

6. The millert's servant lass gaed oot tae the dam,
      Binorie and Benorie
It wis for some water to wash the millert's hand;
"Ye'll get a swan or a white woman
Drowned in the dams o Binorie."

7. They fished up, an' they fished doon,
      Binorie and Benorie
[Until they got her on a stane,
She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.]

8. [Mony's the ane was at her oot-takin',
Binorie and Benorie]
The miller lad died at her grave makin'
She's his ain bonnie lassie o Binorie.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 04 Jun 18 - 10:32 AM

Hi,

Here's Bell Duncan's version from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/285, Disc Side 279, 04:21. Bell uses "mullert" for miller; stanza 4 is nonconforming. Her version is similar to William Walker's.

"Binorie," sung by Miss Bell Duncan of Lambhill, Insch, Aberdeenshire about 1931, probably dating back to early to mid-1800s.

1    There wis twa sisters lived in a booer,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie,
An' the youngest was the fairest flooer,
    She's the bonnie mullert's lass o Binorie.

2    He courted the eldest wi' ribbons an' rings,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie,
But he courted the youngest wi far better things,
    She's the bonnie mullert's lass o Binorie.

3    "O dear sister, we may tak a walk,
       Binorie, aye O Binorie,
An' hear a' the blackbirds whistle ower their notes,
   An' we'll see the mullert's lad o Binorie."

4 They walked up, an' sae hae they doon,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie,
By the bonnie milldams o Binorie.
Until the eldest ane dang the youngest in,
   Tee the deepest milldam o Binorie.

5. O sister, dear sister, reach me yer hand,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie
"I'll gie ye half my siller, an' a third pairt o' my lan',
    And the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie.

6. "It wisna for that that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie
Bet ye're sae very fair an' I sae very din,
   Ye may droon in the dam o Binorie."

7. The mullert's servant lass she's gane oot tae the dam,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie
It wis for water ti wash the mullert's hands,
    The bonnie mullert laddie o Binorie.

8. "O dear maister, there's fish in yer dam,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie,
Or there's a droont lady or else a fite (white) swan,
    In the deepest milldam o Binorie."

9. He his dammed his burns a roon,
      Binorie aye O Binorie
An' they've taen her oot an' laid her on a stane,
   By the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

10. There wis nae ane kent her by her yellow hair,
      Binorie aye O Binorie
But the mullert laddie kent her by the ring that he gae her,
She wis his ain dearest lassie o Binorie.

11. Mony a ane wis at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, aye O Binorie
Bet the bonnie mullert laddie dee't at her green grave makin';
   He's the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 04 Jun 18 - 12:47 PM

Hi,

This version is mysteriously missing the ending-- from the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/198, Disc Side 192, 01:41

"Binorie," sung by David Edwards of 84 High st. Cuninestown, Aberdeenshire. Learned in th Cornhill district about 1880.

1    There wis twa bonnie sisters lived in a glen,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
The miller laddie cam a courtin' them,
    The bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

2    He courted the eldest wi' a gay gowd ring,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
But he courted the youngest wi a far better thing,
    The bonnie miller's lass o Binorie, O.

3    "O sister, O sister, come an' tak a walk,
       Binorie, aye O Binorie,
You'll maybe hear the blackbirds whistle ower his tune,
   Or see the bonnie miller's laddie o Binorie."

4 They walked up and they walked down,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
Till the elder dang the younger into the dam,
   The deep milldam o Binorie.

5. O sister, dear sister, come lend me your hand,
      Binorie, O Binorie
"I'll gie you my yellow gowd, likewise my land,
    And the bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

6. "It wisna for your yellow gowd that I dang ye in,
      Binorie O Binorie
But ye are sae fair and I am sae very din,
   You're the bonnie miller's lass o Binorie."

7. She swimmed up, and she swimmed down,
    Binorie O Binorie,
She sank to the bottom like a stone,
    In the deep milldam o Binorie.

8. The miller's servant girl, she's came out to the dam,
      Binorie, O Binorie
It was for some water to wash the miller's hand,
The bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

9. "O miller, dear miller, there's fish in your dam,
      Binorie, O Binorie
For the white swan he swims rarely up an' down
    In the deep milldam o Binorie."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 12:12 AM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08715; see also Grieg's newspaper article c. 1910; School of Scottish studies (1952), listen; http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/2937;jsessionid=C2F2CF585A7DF68179A59B4052740214

Curiously there's a different single stanza fragment sung by Mathieson which begins:

There were three sisters lived in a toon,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
The one was she was dark and the other she was brown,
The bonnie millert's lass o Biniorie, O.

This sentiment is reminiscent of the "brown girl" ballads (Child 73 and 295) except the line should be "The one she was fair and the other she was brown." Curiously, this is the motive for murder in most Scottish Child 10 versions (see below). Less dialect was used by Grieg in the same version published in Greig's newspaper column about 1910. The 1931 recording by Carpenter is harder to hear than the 1952 Scottish Studies recording although Mathieson was 20 years younger.

"Binorie" sung by Willie Mathieson b. 1879 of Ellon, Aberdeenshire before 1910 as learned from his second wife's grandfather Sandy Ross.

1    Two sister lassies lived in a toon,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
An' a bonnie miller lad came a courtin' them,
   The bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O.

2    He courted the eldest wi' ribbons an' wi' rings,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
But he courted the youngest wi' far better things,
       The bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O.

3    "O sister, O sister we'll go tae the broom,
       Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
We will hear a' the blackbirds whistle ower their tune,
   An' we'll maybe see the bonnie miller laddie, O."

4 They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
They heard a' the blackbirds whistle ower their tune,
   But they didna see the bonnie miller laddie, O."

5. "O sister, O sister we will go tae the milldam,
       Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
We will see a' the ducks an' the swan she will swim,
An' we'll maybe see the bonnie miller laddie, O."

6. They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
They saw a' the ducks an' the swan she did swim,
But they didna see the bonnie miller laddie, O."

7. They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
The eldest dang the youngest into the dam,
   Intae the dam o Binorie, O.

8. "O sister, O sister lend me your hand,
       Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
An' I'll mak you heir ower a' I command,
An' heir ower the bonnie miller laddie, O."

9. "It wisna for your money that I dang you in,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
It's because you're sae fair an' I'm sae very din,
   So you can droon in the dam o Binorie, O."

10. The miller's servant lassie came oot tae the dam,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
It wis for some water ti wash the miller's hands,
    The bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O.

11. "O miller, O miller, there's fish in your dam,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
It's either a drooned lady or else a silken swan,
    That lies in the dam o Binorie, O."

12. He didna ken her by the rings that he has gi'en her,
      Binorie aye an' Binorie, O,
But weel did he ken her by her bonnie gowden hair
As she lay in teh dams o Binorie, O.

13. Mony was the ane at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O
And the bonnie miller lad died at her grave makin';
   The bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 02:00 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, p. 07734, standard text except the miller doesn't die at the burial. The word "claes" (1st line, last stanza) should mean "cloth" or "garment." The line usually means: Many were there when she was taken out of the dam,

"Binorie" sung by Mrs. James Pirie of Kirkside, Alvah, Banff, Scotland about 1931.

1    There was twa bonnie lassies lived in a booer,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
There was a young man came a courtin' them,
   He was the bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

2    He's courted the eldest wi' mony a braw thing,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
But he courted the youngest wi' a far better thing,
      She was the bonnie miller's lassie o Binorie.

3    "O sister, O sister if you'd tak a walk,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie,
You'd hear all the blackbirds whistle ower their tune,
   An' you'd see the bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O."

4   They walked up, an' so did they doon,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
They heard all the blackbirds whistle ower their tune,
   But they never saw the bonnie miller lad, o Binorie, O."

5.   They walked up, an' so did they doon,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
And the eldest pushed the youngest into the dam,
Into the dam o Binorie, O."

6.   "O sister, O sister if you'll tak my hand,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie,
An' I'll gie you my horses and all my free land,
To pull me oot of the dam o Binorie."

7.   "It wasna for your gold that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
It's because ye are so white love, an' I am so din,
    You're the bonnie miller's lassie o Binorie."

8.   She swimmed up, an' so did she doon,
   Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till she sank to the bottom never to rise again,
The bottom o the dams o Binorie.

9.   The miller's servant lassie came up to the dam,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Twas for water to wash bonnie miller's hand,
    The bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

10.   "O miller, O miller, there's fish into your dam,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
There is a drooned lady or a milk-white swan,
    Sailing up and doon the dams o Binorie."

11.   The miller didna ken her by her bonnie goons o silk,
      Binorie O an' Binorie,
But he did ken her by her middle sae gimp
She was the bonnie miller's lassie o Binorie.

12.   Many were there at her claes aff-takin',
   Binorie, O an' Binorie,
But few, few were there at her green grave makin';
   Except the bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 03:01 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08709. Has "millert" except for the first.

"Binorie," sung by Mrs. William Duncan of Tories, Oyne, Scotland about 1931.

1    Twa Scottish girlies lived in a booer,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
A miller laddie a courtin' them cam,
   By the bonnie milldam o Binorie, O.

2    He courted the elder wi' jewels an' rings,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
He's courted the younger wi' a far better things,
    His ain dearest lassie o Binorie, O.

3    "O sister, O sister will ye tak a walk?
       Binorie, O Binorie,
We'll hear a' the blackbirds whistle ower their tune,
   An' see the bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O."

4 They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
Until the elder one dang the younger in,
To droon in the dam o Binorie, O."

5. "O sister, O sister ye'll reach ti me your han',
       Binorie, O Binorie,
Ye'll get pairt o my siller an' third pairt o my lan',
An' be the millert's lassie o Binorie, O."

6. "It wasna for that that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
That you're sae very fair, an' I sae very dun,
   So ye'll droon in the dam o Binorie, O."

7. She swimmed up, an' she swimmed on,
   Binorie, O Binorie,
An' she sank tee the bottom nae mair tee rise again,
Frae the bonnie milldam o Binorie, O.

8. The miller's servant girl came for water to wash his hands,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
There's somebody in, or else there's a swan,
    In the bonnie milldam o Binorie, O.

9. They fished up an' they fished doon,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
They've taen her oot an' laid her on a stane,
    By the bonnie milldam o Binorie, O."

10. There wasna ane ken her by her yellow hair,
      Binorie O Binorie,
But the bonnie miller he knew the rings he gae her,
She wis his ane dearest lassie o Binorie, O.

13. There wis mony there at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, O Binorie,
The bonnie millert laddie died at her grave makin';
She wis his ane dearest lassie o Binorie, O.
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 04:23 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, p. 07736, standard text, a few stanzas missing.

"Binorie" sung by Mrs Jane Lobban of Kennethmont, Aberdeenshire, Scotland about 1931.

1    There wis twa sisters wha lived in a glen,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
The youngest was courted by a nice young man,
   The bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

2    This twa sisters gaed oot for a walk
       Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Twas to hear the blackbirds whistle ower the tune,
   An' see the miller lad o Binorie.

3 They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Bet they didna hear the birdies whistle ower the tune,
   An' they didna see the miller o Binorie.

4. Then the twa sisters stood on a stane,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till the elder she dang the younger in,
Tee teh deep, deep dams o Binorie."

5. "O sister, O sister you'll stretch me yer han',
       Binorie, O Binorie,
An' all my gold and silver will be at your command,
An' the bonnie miller lad o Binorie."

6. "It wisna for yer gold sister, I dang ye in,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
It's because ye're sae very fair, an' I'm sae very din,
   An' ye're courted by the miller o Binorie."

7. The miller's servant lassie cam oot tee the dam,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
It was for some water to wash the miller's hand,
    Twas the bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

8. "O miller, O miller, go fish in your dam,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
For there's a drooned lady or else a white swan,
    In the deep, deep dams o Binorie."

9. Weel did he ken her by her green goon o silk,
      Binorie O an' Binorie,
Bet better did he ken her by her middle, 'twas sae jimp,
Twas the bonnie miller's lass o Binorie.

10. Mony wis there at her aff-claes takin',
   Binorie, O an' Binorie,
But the miller laddie died at her green grave weepin';
    The bonnie miller lad o Binorie.
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 08:49 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, p. 07736. Inconsistent dialect. This is not a version from the Greig-Duncan Collection which has 17 versions A-Q.

"Binorie" from Duncan's MSS sung by Mary McWilliam, Grange, 1905, taken down by Jeanie McDonald of Alford.

1    There lived two sisters in yonder ha',
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
They hid bet a lad atween then twa,
   He's the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie.

2    It fell aince upon a day
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
That the auldest ane to the youngest did say,
   At the bonnie milldam o Binorie:

3.   "Oh sister, oh sister will ye gang to the brooms,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till they thrice heard the black birdie changing its tune,
   An' see the mullert lad o Binorie?

4.   They hadna been half an hour at the brooms,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till they thrice heard the black birdie changin its tune,
At the boonie mulldams o Binorie?

5.   They hadna been an hour at the dams,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till they saw their father's fish boats on dry land,
   But they saw nae the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie.

6.   The youngest one stood on a stane,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
The auldest ane dang the youngest in,
To the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

7.   She swam up, an' she swam down,
    Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till she swam back to her sister again,
In the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

8.   "Oh sister, Oh sister, will ye reach me yer glove,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie,
An' I'll make ye heir o my truelove,
The bonnie mullert lad o Binorie."

9.   "It wisna for that that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
It's because ye are fair, an' I am din,
   An' ye'll droon in the dams o Binorie."

10.   Oot cam the auld mullert's daughter to the dams,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
For water to wash her father's hands,
Frae the bonnie mulldams o Binorie.

11.  "Oh father, Oh father, go a-fishing in your dams,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
For there's either a mermaid or a milk-white swan,
    In the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

12.  They socht up, an' they socht down,
    Binorie, O an' Binorie,
But they got naething but a droon'd woman,
    In the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

13.  Some o them kent her by her skin so fair,
      Binorie O an' Binorie,
Bet weel kent the mullert by her bonnie yellow hair,
She's the mullert's bonnie lass o Binorie.

14.  Some o them kent her by her goon o silk,
      Binorie O an' Binorie,
Bet the mullert laddie ken her by her middle so jimp,
'Twas his ane bonnie lass o Binorie.

15.  Mony a ane was at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, O an' Binorie,
An' mony ane muir at her grave makin';
    At the bonnie mulldams o Binorie.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 11:19 PM

Hi,

From the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/M, pp. 05893-05895. This text is very similar to Scott's version, Child C, (Walter Scott, Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, 1803) most of which Scott took from a traditional singer, Miss Charlotte Brookes. The ending which Scott took from Mrs. Brown's version (Child B) is different which shows that the whole was not copied directly from Scott's published version. The similarities are obvious and a recording was not made-- indicating the text was sent in. The last refrain (line 4) does not vary as nearly all the other traditional versions in the Carpenter Collection.

"Binorie" from Mrs Watson Gray, Corner House, East Street, Fochabers, Scotland, 1931. Partly from her sister, Helen Mackaye.

1    There were two sisters sat in a bower,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
There cam a knicht to be their wooer,
      By the bonny milldams o Binorie.

2    He courted the eldest with glove and ring,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
But he lo'ed the youngest abeen a' thing,
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie.

3   The eldest she was vexed sair,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' much envoyed (envied) her sister fair,
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie.

4    The auldest said tee the youngest ane,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
"Will ye see wir father's ships comin' in?"
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie.

5    She's taen her by the lily hand,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' led her doon tee the river strand.
      By the bonny mill-dams of Binorie

6    The youngest stood upon a stane,
      Binorie, O Binorie
The auldest cam an' dang her in,
      By the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

7    "O sister, O sister, reach yer hand,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' ye shall be heir o half my land,
      By the bonnie mill-dams of Binorie."

8    "O sister, I'll not reach my hand,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' I'll be heir o a' yer land.
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

9    "Shame fa' the hand that I should take,
      Binorie, O Binorie
It's twined me an' my world's make,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie."

10   "O sister, sister, reach me your glove,
      Binorie, O Binorie
And sweet William s'all be your love,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie."

11   "Sink on, nor hope for hand or glove,
      Binnorie, O Binnorie
And sweet William s'all better be my love,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

12   "Yer cherry cheeks an' yellow hair
      Binorie, O Binorie
Has garred me gang maiden evermair,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie."

13    Sometimes she sunk, and sometimes she swam,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Until she came tae the miller's dam.
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie."

14    "O father, father, draw your dam!
      Binorie, O Binorie
There's either a mermaid or a milk-white swan,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie."

15    The miller hasted an' drew his dam,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' there he found a droon't woman.
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

16.    Upon her fingers lily white,
      Binorie, O Binorie
The jewel ringd were shining bright,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

17    You couldna see her yellow hair,
      Binorie, O Binorie
For gowd an' pearls a' sae rare.
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie.

18    You couldna see her middle sma,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Her gowden girdle was sae braw,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

19    You couldna see her lily feet,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Her gowden fringes were sae deep,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

20 It was there cam a harper fine,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Wha harped the nobles when they dine,
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie

21    An' when he looked that lady on,
      Binorie, O Binorie
He sighed and made a heavy moan,
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie.

22    He's made a harp of her breistbane,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
Whase soons wad melt a hairt o stane,
      By the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

23    He's ta'en three locks o her yellow hair,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' wi' them strung his harp sae rare.
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie

24    He went intae her father's hall,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' he played his harp before them a',
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

25 At first the harp played lood an' clear,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Fareweel, my father an' mither dear,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

26   Neist when the harp began to sing,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Twas fareweel William, said the string,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

27   An' syne as plain as plain could be,
      Binorie, O Binorie
There sits my sister wha droon't me,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

* * * *

Comments?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 12:49 PM

Hi,

From the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, pp. 07726-07727. This is a third different type of ballad from the Collection. This refrain was reportedly heard by Cunningham in the early 1800s. The opening stanza is similar to the 2nd version known by Willie Mathieson (see post above) in which skin color is immediately established as the murder motive. The playing of the song, "The Swan Swims Bonnie, O" from the harps reveals that the drowned sister was killed by her remaining sister who is then burned.

Twa Sisters- sung by Mrs Mary Stewart Robertson , 6 Auchreddie Road, New Deer, Scotland, 1932, learned from her mother, never saw in print.

1. There wis twa sisters lived in yon glen,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
Een o them wis fair, an' the other wis din,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

2. "Sister dear sister, come an' tak a walk,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"An' ye'll see winders afore ye come bak,"
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

3. "Pit your fit (feet) on yonder marble stone,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' sae slyly she dung her in,
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

4. "Sister O siter, lend me yer richt hand,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"An' I'll mak ye lady o a' my land,
An' I'll stand ahin the door when the lord comes in,"
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

5. "Sister dear sister lend me yer hand,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"I didn't come here to lend you my hand,
It's because you are fair, an' I am din,"
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

6. Noo the millert had a dochter an' her bein' a maid,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' she went oot for water to bake some breid,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

7. "O father there swims in yer dam,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"Either a maid or a milk-white swan,"
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

8. The millert he gaed oot an' lat off his dam
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' they laid her on a thorn for to dry,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

9. The king's best harper he'd been passin' by,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
He's cut off her fingers sae sma',
For to mak pins for evermair,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

10. The king's second best harper he'd been passin' by,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' he's ta'en three tits o her bonnie gowd hair,
For to mak strin gs for his harp evermair
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

11. The third best harper he wis passin' by,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' he's cut oot her breistbane an' a harp he his made,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

12. An' the three went up tee the king's hall door,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' they played an' they played an' they far better played,
An' aye the overcome o' the song,
"The swan swims bonnie, O."

13. Noo the king's dochter she came doon the stairs,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
Says, "Harpers, harpers, change your tune,
An I'll gie you my gowd an' my land,"
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

14. They say, "O fair lady, we canna change wir tune,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"We canna change wir tune, till we be deen,"
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

15. Doon cam her mother and her oldest brother,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
Says, "Harpers harpers, play ower the tune,
An' we'll make ye lords fan (when) ye are done
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

16. They've ta'en her oot an' they've kill't her by fire,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' they've burned her tee the harper's desire,
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 02:02 PM

Hi,

Fragmented short version from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/M, p. 05879. Cf. Willie Mathieson (Child M)

Binorie- sung by Mrs. J. H. Goodall of East Gate, Alford,   Aberdeenshire about 1931.

1    Ther were twa sisters lived in yonder toon,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
A bonnie miller lad came a courtin' o' them,
He was the bonnie miller laddie o Binorie, O.

2    He courted the eldest wi' mony a gowd ring,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
But he courted the youngest wi' a far better thing,
       She was the bonnie miller lassie o Binorie, O.

3    "O sister, O sister we'll go to the broom,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
We'll hear the bonnie blackbirds whistlin ower their tune,
   But they didna see the miller o Binorie, O[1]."

4. "O sister, O sister let's go to the dam,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
An' the eldest knocked the youngest into the dam,
   Into the dam o Binorie, O.

5. "O sister, O sister give me your hand,
       Binorie, O, an' Binorie, O,
I'll gie you all my yellow gowd, I'll gie you all my land,
But I canna gi'e you the miller o Binorie, O."

6. "It wasna for your yellow gowd I dang you in,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
But ye're sae very white an' I'm sae very din,
   An' ye're the miller's bonnie lassie o Binorie, O."

7. The miller's servant lass she ran out to the dam,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
She saw a new droon't lady or a white silken swan,
    Floating up an' doon the dam o Binorie, O.

8. "Miller, miller there's fish in yer dam,
   Binorie, O an' Binorie, O
Or else a new droon't lady or a white silken swan,
Floating up an' doon the dam o Binorie, O."

____________________

1. stanza missing- this line should be where they go try and see the bonnie miller laddie

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 02:46 PM

Hi,

Single stanza with music from James Madison Carpenter MSS Collection (American Folklife Center, Library of Congress / VWML, London) p.04170

Binorie - From Mrs. G. Duncan, melody of the Rev. James B. Duncan family with one stanza of text, c. 1905.

"O sister, O sister will ye go to the dam?
       Binorie, O and Binori,
And see your father's fish boats safely to dry land
And see the miller lad o Binorie?"
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 03:35 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08709, standard text, cf. Child M.

Binorie - sung by Mrs. William Duncan, Tories, Oyne, By Turriff, Aberdeenshire, about 1931.

1    Twa Scottish girlies lived in a booer,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
A miller laddie a courted them cam,
   By the bonnie milldams o Binorie, O.

2    He courted the elder wi jewels and rings,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
He's courted the younger wi far better things,
   His ane dearest lassie o Binorie, O.

3.  "O sister, O sister will ye tak a walk?
       Binorie, O Binorie,
We'll hear the blackbirds whistlin' ower their tune,
   An' see the bonnie miller o Binorie, O.

4   They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
Until the elder one dang the younger in,
To droon in the dams o Binorie, O."

5.   "O sister, O sister, ye'll reach me yer han',
       Binorie, O Binorie,
An' ye'll get pairt o my siller an' third pairt my land,
An' be the millert's lassie o Binorie, O."

6.   "It wasna for that that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
(Because) that ye're sae very fair, an' I sae very dun,
   An' ye'll droon in the dam o Binorie."

7.   She swimmed up an' she swimmed doon,
Binorie, O Binorie,
An' she sank tee the bottom nae mair tee rise again,
Frae the bonnie milldams o Binorie, O."

8.   The miller's servant girl came for water to wash his hands,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
There's somebody in, or else there's a swan,
In the bonnie milldam o Binorie, O."

9.   "They fished up an' they fished doon,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
They've ta'en her out and laid her on a stane,
    By the bonnie milldams o Binorie, O."

10.   They wisna ane kent her by her yellow hair,
      Binorie O an' Binorie,
But the bonnie miller laddie he knew the rings he gae her,
She was his ane dearest lassie o Binorie, O.

10.   There wis mony a ane there at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, O Binorie,
The bonnie millert laddie died at her grave makin';
    She was his ane dearest lassie o Binorie, O.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 04:22 PM

Hi,

This short version is from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/160, Disc Side 154, 01:14. Cf. Child M, standard Scottish text.

Binorie - sung by William McKenzie of Kennethmont, Aberdeenshire, about 1931.

1    There were twa sister who lived in yonder bower,
      Binorie, aye and Binorie, O,
There was a bonnie millet's laddie came courting them there,
   He's the bonnie millet's laddie o Binorie, O.

2 He courted the one with many gold rings,
      Binorie, aye and Binorie, O,
But he courted the other wi far better things,
   She's the bonnie millet's lassie o Binorie, O.

3 "O sister, O sister will you take a walk?
       Binorie, aye and Binorie, O?
You'll hear the bonnie blackbird a whistlin' ower its tune,
   An' ye'll see the bonnie millet's laddie o Binorie, O."

4 So they travelled eastward, an' they travelled west,
      Binorie, aye and Binorie, O,
When the oldest danged the youngest into the dam,
   "You're the bonnie millet's lassie o Binorie, O."

5 "O sister, O sister give me your hand,
       Binorie, O Binorie,
An' I'll give you all my yellow gold, likewise all my land,
   I'm the bonnie millert's lassie o Binorie, O."

6 "It was not for your yellow gold that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, aye and Binorie, O,
Because you're so very white, love, an' I'm so very din,
You'e the bonnie millert's lassie o Binorie, O."

7 So she swum eatward an' she swum west,
    Binorie, aye and Binorie, O
Till she sunk to the bottom for to rise no more,
    She's the bonnie millert's lassie o Binorie, O."

8   The miller's servant lass came up to the dam,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
It was for some water to wash the millet's hand,
Frae the bonnie dams o Binorie, O[1]."

9   "O millet, O millet, there's fish in your dam,
       Binorie, aye and Binorie, O,
Or it is a droont lady, or a milk-white swan,
    Swimming up and doon the dams o Binorie, O."

10 Ye widna kent her by her bonnie goon o silk,
       Binorie aye and Binorie, O
But ye'd kent her by her middle was so jimp,
She's the bonnie millet's lassie o Binorie, O.
__________________

1. this line is missing.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 04:36 PM

Using Carpenter and Greig-Duncan you should be able to give a good stab at what the Scottish broadside that they undoubtedly stem from looked like. Then a comparison with the 17th century London version might throw up some interesting insights.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 06:28 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, p. 07725, standard version (Child M type) that Carpenter got from Miss Duncan in 1932.

Binorie- from recitation of Mr. Shivas before 1929 when he died; collected by Miss Duncan of Old Deer, Aberdeenshire.

1. "Sister, O sister, will ye go tee the broom
Binorie O Binorie,
"An' hear the blackbird cheenge her tune,
An' see the bonnie mullert laddie o Binorie?"

2. They hadna been an oor (hour) at the broom,
Binorie, O Binorie,
Till they heard the blackbird cheenge her tune,
But they couldna see the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie.

3. They hadna been an oor (hour) at the broom,
Binorie O Binorie,
Till the elder sister dang the younger in,
Tee the bonnie mulldams o Binorie.

4. She sweemed up and she sweemed doon,
Binorie O Binorie,
Till the elder sister dang the younger in
Tee the bonnie mulldams o Binorie.

5. "Sister O sister, will ye reach out yer han'?
Binorie, O Binorie,
"An' ye's be the heirs o a' my lan's,
An' get the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie."

6. "Sister O sister, will ye reach out yer glove?
Binorie, O Binorie,
"An' ye'll be the heir o my truelove,
An' ye'll get the mullert lad o Binorie."

7. "It wisna for that I dang you in,
Binorie, O Binorie,
"Bet because ye are fair an' I an din,
I'll droon ye in the dams o Binorie."

8. The mullert's eldest daughter gaed oot tee the dams,
Binorie, O Binorie,
To get some water to wash her father's han's.
In the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

9. "O father, O father, get doon tee yer dams,
Binorie, O Binorie,
For up an' doon a droon't woman sweems,
In the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

10. They couldna ken her by her bonnie yellow hair,
Binorie, O Binorie,
But weel kent her by the rings that he gae her,
She wis the bonnie mullert's lass o Binorie.
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 10:45 PM

Hi Steve,

There are probably over 40 Scottish versions between Greig/Duncan, Carpenter and the few School of Scottish Studies. So far there are three distinct forms, two of which relate to the English (James Smith) of the mid-1600s. I thought you would be interested in the dark skin (din, dun, brown) murder motive which relates to Child 73 and 295.

Still waiting on word from the Bodleian Library on Rimbault's 1656 broadside from their head archivist after an initial search by a staff person failed to locate any trace of a broadside titled, "The Miller's Melody," or, "The Miller and the King's Daughter."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 07 Jun 18 - 11:55 PM

Hi,

Fragment from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08706. Has a variation of Mrs. Brown's first refrain.

Binorie (Two Sisters)- sung by Mrs. B.D. Cameron of probably Aberdeenshire collected by Alexander Keith before 1931.

    There was two sisters lived in a town
       Edinborough, Edinborough
There came a knight to be there wooer
They're the grey millrt's lassie o Binorie, O.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 12:11 AM

Hi,

Two stanza fragment with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08704

Twa Sisters- sung by Carrie Lindsay of unknown location, probably Aberdeenshire, collected by Carpenter before 1931.

1    There were twa sisters in a toon,
      Binorie, aye[1] and Binorie, O.
And a bonnie miller laddie cam a-courtin' them,
   The bonnie miller laddie o Binorie, O.

2    He courted the younger ane wi' ribbons and wi' rings,
       Binorie, aye and Binorie, O.
He's courted the other wi' far better things,
   He's her bonnie miller laddie o Binorie, O.
__________________

1. written "ey"


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 12:30 AM

Hi,

The first of two US Carpenter versions of Child 10 is from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/7/1/C, pp. 10635-10636 (my title). It follows Child Y from Parsons, 1770. The end refrain is shortened in stanza 3 because of an extra line

Bow Down- from the singing of Becky F. Jones of Cary, North Carolina c. 1938.

1. "O sister, O sister let's take a walk,
Bow down, Bow down
O sister, O sister let's take a walk,
The bough was bent for me,
O sister, O sister let's take a walk,
To see those little ships floating about."
REFRAIN: Be true, true, be true my love,
My love will be true to me.

2. So they walked out on salty brim,
Bow down, Bow down
They walked out on salty brim,
Where the bough was bent for me,
They walked out on salty brim,
Where the oldest pushed the young one in.
REFRAIN: Be true, true, be true my love,
My love will be true to me.

3. "O sister, O sister, lend me your hand,
Bow down, bow down,
Sister, O sister, lend me your hand,
She bent and she bowed unto me,
Sister, O sister, lend me your hand,
I neither will lend you my hand not my glove,
But I will marry your own true love,
My love will be true to me.
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 12:43 AM

Hi,

Single stanza with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/I, p. 11974

Twa Sisters- sung by Mrs. T Durward, no location probably Aberdeenshire, c. 1931

1    There were twa sisters in a ha',
      Binorie, o and Binorie.
And they had a taylor atween them twa,
   He's the bonnie millert laddie o Binorie.
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 12:18 PM

Hi,

There are three more versions of Child 10 to post from Carpenter's collection. I've been wading though Child's version A-Z and trying to figure out the best way to group like versions. The difficulty is with the refrains and forms since some refrains vary with nearly identical text. There's also the resuscitation stanzas (making a harp/fiddle from the dead sister's body/hair) which are not present in the standard Scottish and English/American "Bow down" versions.

Perhaps someone can help me confirm the source of Child Rc, titled The Barkshire Tragedy (yes, this is Child 10) which according to Child is:

"Rc. 'The Scouring of the White Horse,' p. 158, from Berkshire, as heard by Mr Hughes from his father."

What's confusing is Hughes gives the source as "a ruddy-faced, smock-frocked man, who, with his eyes cast up to the tent-top, droned through his nose the following mournful ditty:"

La, "The Drowned Lady" also from The Scouring of the White Horse, is also attributed to Hughes' father (John Hughes) who learned it as a boy in Wales at Ruthyn also Ruthin.

Hughes grew up in Berkshire (now Oxfordshire). This is another difficult detail I'm trying to resolve.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 02:34 PM

Hi,

I'm also looking for suggestions of ways to categorize the different versions of Child 10. Bronson has five music groups A-D with group B divided into six sub-groups. Group D has some of the "Swans Swim so Bonnie" refrains.

Listing all the different versions with its own letter designation like Child did is impractical since there are hundreds of versions.

This is what I have so far:

A. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" from "Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation," London by Dr. James Smith (Editions 1655, 1656, 1658-- only 1658 verified) Child A, L.
    a. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" from " Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation" 1655 from Mr. Smith (reprinted 1656, 1658, 1817 Facetiae edition)
    b. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" unconfirmed broadside "printed for Francis Grove, 1656," by Mr. Smith; text reprinted in Notes and Queries, 1st S., v, 591 by Edward F. Rimbault, 1852.
    c. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" from 1656 edition "Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation" as reprinted in Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 315, 1806. Has several emendations presumably made by Jamieson.
    d. "The Miller and the King's Daughter," as from Mr. (James) Smith "Wit Restor'd, 1658, " p. 51," in the reprint of 1817, p. 153.
    e. "The Miller and the King's Daughters," Wit and Drollery, ed. 1682, p. 87.
    f. "Damnd Mill-Dam" as heard by Anna Seward of Derbyshire about 1749, Child L from Anna Seward to Walter Scott, April 25-29, 1802: Letters addressed to Sir Walter Scott, I, No 54, Abbotsford.
    g. "The Miller's Melody" dated c. 1790 by G.A.C. from Notes and Queries, 1st S., v, 316, 1852, Child La.
    h. "The Drowned Lady," from Thomas Hughes' father (John Hughes of Oxfordshire) learned as a boy in Wales c.1800 published in "The Scouring of the White Horse," p. 161, 1859, Child Lb.

B. "The Twa Sisters" or "The Cruel Sister" Scottish, from Anna Gordon Brown of Aberdeenshire, learned c. 1760, written down in 1783. Child B, three refrains.
    a. 'The Twa Sisters,' Jamieson-Brown Manuscript, fol. 39, 1783, Child Ba.
    b. 'The Cruel Sister,' Wm. Tytler's Brown Manuscript, No 15, 1783, Child Bb.
    c. 'The Cruel Sister,' Abbotsford Manuscript, "Scottish Songs," fol. 21, c.1803, Child Bc.
    d. 'The Twa Sisters,' Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 48, 1806, Child Bd.
    e. "The Cruel Sister," Scott's Minstrelsy, II, 143 (1802). Composite of Mrs. Brown's text and an Irish text recreated by Scott, Child C with Binnorie refrains.
    f. "The Two Fair Sisters" taken from an unknown singer (based on or similar to Scott's Child C/Mrs. Brown's version) probably from Nithsdale/Galloway before 1810 by Allan Cunningham in his The Songs of Scotland, Ancient and Modern: with an introduction, Volume 2, 1825.
    g. "Three Sisters." From the recitation of Mrs. Johnston, a North-country Scottish lady; Kinloch's Manuscripts, II, 49; 1826 or later; Child D
    h. Twa Sisters- taken from Mrs. Eleonora Sharpe of Dumfriesshire about c1798 from C.K. Sharpe's Ballad Book, No. X, p. 30, 1824; Child E.

C. "The King in the North Country" or "Bow Down" English and American, earliest date 1770 Child Y from Parsons near Kent. Refrains include "Bow Down" "Balance unto me," and "I'll be true to my love," similar form as B, first line repeated twice with three refrains.
    a. "There was a king lived in the North Country." Communicated to Percy, April 7. 1770, and April 19, 1775, by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent from a spinning-wheel operator; Child Y.

D. "Binnorie (Binorie)" and "Bonnie Milldams o Binnorie" Scottish, quatrain form with resuscitation stanzas

E. "Binnorie (Binorie)" and "Bonnie Milldams o Binnorie" Scottish, quatrain form without resuscitation stanzas; the second refrain is variable.

* * * *

Nearly all the Carpenter versions are E while two are D, and one has a different refrain. Almost all North American version are C. Although Child C has the Binnorie refrains established in 1778 by Pinkerton it's based mostly on B sung by Mrs. Brown-- the refrains were added by Scott from a 14 stanza Irish version which unfortunately can't be found in its original form. I've added Child L (English) to Child A (English) although they are somewhat different.

Suggestions welcomed,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 03:12 PM

Richie, both songs appear in the book as cited.

The book looks like fiction. Thomas Hughes is the author, but "his" father calls him "Richard."

It is written like fiction, with plenty of conversations.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 04:05 PM

Hi Lighter,

I know Child asked Hughes his source(s) and got the info on Child La. "The Drowned Lady" from Hughes who said he got it from his father (at least some of it).

I'll just assume then that Child Rc. is also from Hughes' father (since Child says so) and that Hughes source in the book is probably fiction.

Hughes grew up in Berkshire so it makes sense,

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 04:39 PM

Not having looked in any detail myself, but your divisions/categories look fine from here.

>>>>>>Bronson has five music groups A-D with group B divided into six sub-groups.<<<<< should read 'A-E' presumably. It might be worth stating clearly the differences, if any, between your subgroups and Bronson's.


BTW the version I sing uses the tune and chorus of Bronson's 26 which comes from a few miles from where I live. AS for the text I make it up as I go along based on the many versions I've come across.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 05:43 PM

> AS for the text I make it up as I go along based on the many versions I've come across.

That's the way to do it!

I sing two different versions, one with the multi-repeat "bow down" format, Richie's C, and one with the "Bonny bows of London refrain similar to Child F, but with different verses, which I got from Pete Nalder. I have mainly different sets of words for them but they get mixed up a bit.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 10:01 AM

Hi,

Here's how the Child versions (and a few other versions) of Child 10 are organized now. There are two archaic versions from America with flower refrains which I may add as a separate letter heading. The categories (letter designations) either have resuscitation stanzas (dead sister's body/hair is made into an instrument and she is resuscitated and speaks through the instrument) or they don't-- and are labeled as such.

A. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" with resuscitation stanzas. From second edition, 1656, of "Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation," London by Dr. James Smith ("Musarum Deliciæ" reprinted "Wit Restor'd 1658-- only 1658 verified, reprinted in 1817) Child A, L with resuscitation stanzas.
    a1. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" from " Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation" 1656 from Mr. Smith (reprinted 1658 "Wit Restor'd", and again in 1817 Facetiae edition)
    a2. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" unconfirmed broadside "printed for Francis Grove, 1656," by Mr. Smith; text reprinted in Notes and Queries, 1st S., v, 591 by Edward F. Rimbault, 1852.
    a3. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" from 1656 edition "Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation" as reprinted in Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 315, 1806. Has several emendations presumably made by Jamieson.
    a4. "The Miller and the King's Daughter," as from Mr. (James) Smith reprint in "Wit Restor'd, 1658, " p. 51," in the reprint of 1817, p. 153. Sir John Mennes, "Wit Restor'd In severall select poems Not formerly publisht" (London: R. Pollard, N. Brooks, and T. Dring, 1658), pp. 51-54:
    a5. "The Miller and the King's Daughters," Wit and Drollery, ed. 1682, p. 87.
    b. "Damnd Mill-Dam" as heard by Anna Seward of Derbyshire about 1749, Child L from Anna Seward to Walter Scott, April 25-29, 1802: Letters addressed to Sir Walter Scott, I, No 54, Abbotsford.
    c. "The Miller's Melody" dated c. 1790 by G.A.C. from Notes and Queries, 1st S., v, 316, 1852, Child La.
    d. "The Drowned Lady," from Thomas Hughes' father (John Hughes of Oxfordshire) c.1800 from The Scouring of the White Horse, p. 161, 1859, Child Lb.

B. "The Twa Sisters" or "The Cruel Sister" with resuscitation stanzas. Scottish, from Anna Gordon Brown of Aberdeenshire, learned c. 1760, written down in 1783. Child B, three refrains
    a1. "The Twa Sisters," Jamieson-Brown Manuscript, fol. 39, 1783, Child Ba.
    a2. "The Cruel Sister," William Tytler's Brown Manuscript, No 15, 1783, Child Bb.
    a3. "The Cruel Sister," Abbotsford Manuscript, "Scottish Songs," fol. 21, c.1803, Child Bc.
    a4. "The Twa Sisters," Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 48, 1806, Child Bd.
    b. "The Cruel Sister," Scott's Minstrelsy, II, 143 (1802). Composite of Mrs. Brown's text and an Irish text recreated by Scott, Child C with Binnorie refrains.
    c. "The Two Fair Sisters" taken from an unknown singer (based on or similar to Scott's Child C/Mrs. Brown's version) probably from Nithsdale/Galloway before 1810 by Allan Cunningham in his The Songs of Scotland, Ancient and Modern: with an introduction, Volume 2, 1825.
    d. "Three Sisters." From the recitation of Mrs. Johnston, a North-country Scottish lady; Kinloch's Manuscripts, II, 49; 1826 or later; Child D.
    e. "Twa Sisters," taken from Mrs. Eleonora Sharpe of Dumfriesshire about c1798 from C.K. Sharpe's Ballad Book, No. X, p. 30, 1824; Child E.

C. "The King in the North Country" or "Bow Down" without resuscitation stanzas. English and American, earliest date 1770 Child Y from Parsons near Kent. Refrains include "Bow Down" "Balance unto me," and "I'll be true to my love," similar form as B, first line repeated twice with three refrains.
    a. "There was a king lived in the North Country." Communicated to Percy, April 7. 1770, and April 19, 1775, by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent from a spinning-wheel operator; Child Y.
    b. "The Twa Sisters," no date but after 1826, no title, taken from Kinloch Manuscripts, VI, p. 89, Child S.
    c. "The Three Sisters," by Seleucus, a Lancashire ballad, from Notes and Queries, 1st S., vi, 102; dated July 31, 1852, Child Ra.
    d. "The Barkshire Tragedy." From Thomas Hughes 'The Scouring of the White Horse,' p. 158, 1859. According to Child, it's "from Berkshire, as heard by Mr Hughes from his father (John Hughes)" Child Rc.
    e. "Bo down (Bow Down)." Written down for John Francis Campbell, Esq., Nov. 7, 1861, at Wishaw House, Lancashire, by Lady Louisa Primrose (quatrain form, two refrains). Published in Popular Tales of the West Highlands, Campbell 1862, Volume 4 page 125, Child Rb.
    f. "The Two Sisters," dated c. 1880 from ladies in New York, and by them from a cousin, Child Z.

D. "Binnorie (Binorie)" and "Bonnie Milldams o Binnorie" also "Bonny Bows o London" and "Norham, down by Norham" with resuscitation stanzas. Scottish, quatrain form, named after refrains.
    a. "The Twa Sisters" Scottish c. 1790. Copied Oct. 26, 1861, by J. F. Campbell, Esq., from a collection made by Lady Caroline Murray of Richmond, Surrey (b. 1791); traced by her to an old nurse, and beyond the beginning of this century. Refrains are varied from standard "Binorie" refrains, Child Q.
    b. "Cruel Sister" composite of Irish tradition and Mrs. Brown's Scottish version recreated by Scott published in his Minstrelsy, 1802 with resuscitation stanzas, Child C.
    c. "There Were Three Sisters" taken from I. Goldie (J. Goldie?) of Paisley in March, 1825. From Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 147, Child H.
    d. "The Bonny Bows o London" from the recitation of Agnes Lyle, Kilbarchan, 27th July, 1825. From ESPB, volume 1, 1882 as from Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 383. Child, Version F.
    e. "The Twa Sisters." From the recitation of M. Kinnear, the editor's niece from Mearnshire, north of Scotland on 23d August, 1826. From Kinloch Manuscripts, B, 425. 1827, p.136, Child I.
    f. "Binnorie" fragment from Mrs. Lindores of Kelso Roxburghshire, c.1926, Mr. G.R. Kinloch's papers, Kinloch Manuscripts, II, 59, Child K.
    g. "The Bonny Bows of London," taken down from an old woman from north Scotland. From Ancient Ballads and Songs of the North of Scotland, p. 128, Buchan, 1828, Child Oa.
    h. "Norham, Down By Norham" dated c.1830 as communicated by Mr. Thomas Lugton, of Kelso, Roxburghshire, as sung by an old cotter-woman fifty years ago; learned by her from her grandfather; Child W.
    i. "Benorie" Campbell MS from Scottish highlands, c.1860, John Francis Campbell was author of "Popular Tales of the West Highlands;" Child V.
    j. The Bonny Bows o' London- from the singing of an old woman in Buckie, (Enzie, Banffshire,) who died in 1866. From Traditional Ballad Airs, edited by W. Christie, I, 42; text modified from Buchan's Ballads of the North of Scotland; Child Ob.

E. "Binnorie (Binorie)" and "Bonnie Milldams o Binnorie" without resuscitation stanzas. Scottish, quatrain form; named after refrains, the second refrain is usually variable. Early date 1778 Pinkerton.
    a. 'Binnorie" partially traditional from Edinburgh, from Pinkerton's Scottish Tragic Ballads, p. 72 MS dated 1778, published 1781, Child N.
    b. "Binnorie," fragment from Dr. Joseph Robertson's Note-Book, January 1, 1830, p. 7, Child X.
    c. "Binorie, O an' Binorie," from recitation at Old Deir (Deer), 1876, by Mrs. A. F. Murison; manuscript, p. 79, Child M.

F. "Hey Nanny, O" and "Swans Swim Bonnie" with resuscitation stanzas. Irish-Scottish, quatrain form, named after refrains. Some versions have and early skin color stanza.
    a. "Cruel Sister" Irish dated c. 1790, a composite using a fourteen stanzas transcription from the recitation of an old Irish woman by Miss Charlotte Brooke. Sent to Scott by J. C. Walker, Esq. the ingenious historian of the Irish bards, Child C.
    b. "There Were Three Sisters"- from Mrs. King of Kilbarchan. Renfrewshire c. 1825; Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 104, Child G.
    c. "The Swan Swims Bonnie O" unknown informant, Scotland, 1827, Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 245; Child Pa.
    d. "The Swan Swims Bonnie O" fragment from unknown informant, Scotland, Motherwell's Minstrelsy, Appendix, p. xx. 1827; Child Pb.
    e. "The Miller's Melody" from an 1870 issue of Notes and Queries, 4th S., V, 23, from the north of Ireland; Child J.
    f . "Hey Ho, my Nancy Oh!" Fragment contributed by T.B. as sung by James Moylan, a gardener, from Petrie No. 688, c. 1902.

G. "Hey Nanny, O" and "Swans Swim Bonnie" without resuscitation stanzas. Irish-Scottish, quatrain form, named after refrains.
    a. "The Swim Swom Bonny" sung by Nicholas W. Butcher of Wetzel County, WV, before 1935, Bayard, published Barry BFSSNE.

H. "Cold blows the Wind," or "Wind and the rain" Irish, American
    a. "Sister, Dear Sister," no informant given, fragment from Allingham's Ballad Book, p. xxxiii; from Ireland, 1865, Child T.
    b. "The Wind and Rain (Two Sisters)" sung by Rev. J. L. Sims of Pageton, WV, on October 13, 1931 as collected by Buchanan; Barry BFSSNE.
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 10:23 AM

Hi Richard and Steve,

Steve, should be Bronson A-E :) Your version by Charles Lolley of Driffield, Yorkshire was published in JFSS 1906, do you known when Kidson collected it?

I heard back from several staff members at Bodleian about Rimbault's broadside. The last was Jo Maddocks; Assistant Curator of Rare Books;
Weston Library (Bodleian Libraries), Broad Street, Oxford, OX1 3BG who said:

What a muddle. At any rate, it doesn’t sound as though Gregory himself saw a copy of the broadside, which relieves us of the worry that there might be a copy somewhere in the Bodleian that we don’t know about! I think if the broadside ever did exist, it’s safe to say that there aren’t any recorded copies now.

Maddocks showed it to several experts at the Bodleian who referred her to their 1658 copy of Wit Restor'd at the Bodelian. See Lighter's post of that text above. See also the link to Gregory's lines about the broadside in Victorian Songhunters, 2006-- above.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 10:48 AM

Hi Steve,

Kidson titled Lolley's version "I'll Be True To My Love (Berkshire Tragedy)" which he collected in 1892. The reference to Berkshire Tragedy is to Thomas Hughes version named "Barkshire Tragedy" that Child said was learned from Hughes father, John Hughes of Wales, then Berkshire. Hughes version was published in "Scouring of the White Horse," 1859 and again by Broadwood in 1893.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 11:27 AM

Hi,

The next Carpenter version of Child 10 is James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, pp. 08719-08720. A better recording is found online here:
https://www.scotslanguage.com/articles/view/id/5156 as recorded by Alan Lomax in 1951. Lomax notes:
John Strachan was a well-to-do farmer at the Aberdeenshire farm of Crichie, near Fyvie, who had a wonderful fund of old ballads and bothy ballads. In 1951 Hamish Henderson took American folklorist Alan Lomax to record Strachan's singing. Strachan was born in 1875 and died in 1958. From the Alan Lomax Collection at the American Folklife Center, Library of Congress.

Carpenter gives two stanzas with music (c. 1931)- the first stanza has changed in the 1951 recording and the second is missing.

(The Two Sisters) Binnorie O Binnorie- sung by John Strachan of Aberdeenshire, c. 1931 and again in 1951,

There were two sisters lived in a glen[1]
Binnorie o Binnorie,
And the bonnie millert laddie cam a–coortin o them,
By the bonnie mill dams o Binnorie.

[He courted the elder wis diamonds and rings[2],
Binnorie o Binnorie,
He courted the younger wis far better things,
By the bonnie mill dams o Binnorie.]

Oh sister, oh sister, will ye take a walk
Roond be the dams o Binnorie,
For to hear the blackbird whistle o’er its notes
By the bonnie mill dams o Binnorie.

They walked up and sae did they doon
And roon be the dams o Binnorie,
Till the elder stepped aside and dang the younger in
To the deep mill dams o Binnorie.

Oh sister, oh sister stretch oot yer hand
Binnorie o Binnorie,
And I’ll gie ye my gold and a fifth o my land
For the bonny millert laddie o Binnorie.

It wisna for yer money that I dang you in
Binnorie o Binnorie,
It’s you being so fair love and I so very grim[3]
For the bonny millert laddie o Binnorie.

Oh millert oh millert rin oot yer dam
Binnorie o, Binnorie,
For there’s some grand lady or some deid swan
Floatin up and doon the dams o Binnorie.

__________

1. There were two sisters lived in a booer[bower]
Binnorie o Binnorie,
And a knight cam tae be their wooer,
By the bonnie mill dams o Binnorie.

2. stanza missing from the 1951 recording

3. usually "din"

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 12:02 PM

Hi,

Fragment with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/D, p. 11671.

Two Sisters- sung by Alex Troup (1851- 1839) of Overton, district of Insch, Aberdeenshire; brother of Isaac Troup, both contributed to Greig-Duncan c. 1908, will cross reference.

1. There were two sisters lived in a booer[bower]
Binorie o, an' Binorie,
A bonnoe millert lad cam a-courtin' o them,
Twas the bonnie millert laddie o Binorie.

2. He courted the elder wis jewels and wis rings,
Binnorie o, an' Binnorie,
But he courted the younger wis far better things,
She was the bonnie millert's lassie o Binnorie.
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 12:24 PM

hi,

The last Carpenter version of Twa Sisters is James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, p. 07747: American, categorized under standard English versions without resuscitation stanzas, my C (form Child Y, 1770), both miller and sister are hanged.

The Two Sisters (Twa Sisters)- sung by Viola Cook of Whitesburg, Kentucky about 1938.

1. There lived an old lord by the northern sea,
Bowee down!
There lived an old lord by the northern sea,
Bow, and balance me,
There lived an old lord by the northern sea,
And he had daughters one, two, three.
I'll be true to my love,
If my love'll be true to me.

2. A young man came a courting there,
And he made the choice of the youngest fair.

3. He bought the youngest a beaver hat;
And the eldest sister didn't like that.

4   As they walked down to the water's brim,
The eldest sister pushed the youngest in.

5 "O sister, dear sister lend me your hand,
And you may have my house and land."

6   She floated down to the miller's dam;
The miller drew her safe to land.

7 And off her fingers took five gold rings,
Then into the water he plunged her again.

8 The miller was hanged on a gallows so high,
The eldest sister there close by.
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 05:27 PM

Thanks, Richie.
Charles Lolley was from Howden in the East Riding of Yorkshire, but had moved to Leeds by the time Kidson came across him. He already knew some songs himself but must have done some actual collecting on behalf of Kidson in the East Riding. It's a pity Lolley's records haven't survived. Several of my friends have been researching Kidson's work and next time I see them I'll ask about Lolley's work. Where did your date of 1892 come from?


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 02:30 PM

Hi,

This is one of the oldest American versions and has been traced to Big Sammy Hicks (1753-1835) from three separate North Carolina sources-- one is from Jane Hicks Gentry who sang her version for Sharp in 1916 (Two Sisters, Sharp A, EFSSA). The chorus: Gilley flower gent the roseberry, is derived from (Gilleyflower gentle, rosemary) which A. G. Gilchrist wrote about in "A Note on the 'Herb' and Other Refrains":

The curious "Jury flower gent the rose berry" of one of Mr. Sharp's Appalachian songs, though at first sight a much decayed form, probably comes quite near the original in sound if not sense, for" gelofir gent " is a description, c. 1500, of the gilliflower. The line runs, in more intelligible versions, Gilliflower gentle and rosemary. The line "Gilliflower gentle or rosemary" occurs in a lyric by Sir Thomas Philipps (temp. Henry VIII) in company with "Marjoram gentle or lavender" and "Camomile, borage, or savory.

If Big Sammy got the ballad when he lived along Tuckahoe Creek (St. James River, Goochland County) in Virginia, as it would seem, the ballad would date to the first part of the 1700s in Virginia through his source.

This version is from Nora Hicks of Mast's Gap, North Carolina who got the ballad from Fanny Hicks (1837–1914), who was Big Sammy's granddaughter on her father's side.

The Two Sisters, Variant 1- sung by Mrs. Nora Hicks. It was copied down by Addie Hicks and given to Abrams by Edith Walker about 1939. The correct refrain was written out only in stanza 12.

1. There was two sisters loved one man,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry,
The youngest one he loved first,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

2. As they were walking by the brook,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
The old one pushed the young one in
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

3. Sister, sister give me your hand,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
And you may have all my land
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

4. Sister, sister give me your glove
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
And you may have the one I love
Till the jury hangs over the Roseberry.

5. She floated up she floated down
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry,
She floated in to the miller's pond,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

6. Out run the miller with his long hook,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
He drew this fair woman out of the brook,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

7. It ain't a fish nor it ain't a swan
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
He picked her up and threw her back,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

8. She floated up and she floated down
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
She floated in to the harper's pond
Till the jury hangs over the Rose Berry

9. Out run the harper with his long hook
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
He drew this fair woman out at the brook
Till the jury hangs over the Rose berry.

10. It ain't a fish nor it ain't a swan,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
It is a fair woman in my pond,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

11. What will we make out of her breast bone so fine,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry?
We will make us a new fiddle to play on
All the jury hangs over the roseberry.

12. What will we make out of her fingers so small
Gilley flower gent the roseberry,
We will make us some new screws to play on
Till the jury hangs over the Rose

13. What will we make out of her hair so long
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry,
we will make us some new strings to play on
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

14. Up then spoke the first string,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
Was my sister that pushed me in,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

15. Up then spoke the next string,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry,
It was the miller who threw me back
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

16. The miller was hung on the gallows so high,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry,
The sister was burnt at a stake there by,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

* * * *

The importance is that this is a variant of the old English version of Parsons 1770 near Kent but with an archaic chorus and resuscitation stanzas. Nora Hicks version is virtually unknown and was taken from the Abrams Collection at App State in MS form. It's considerably better than Jane Gentry's version that she got from her grandfather Council Harmon probably in the late 1800s. Council lived with his grandfather Big Sammy at Beech Mountain when he was a child after his father died when a tree fell on him when Council was about 8 and his mother, Sabra was widowed and unable to provide for her four small children. Later in life, Council (Counce) lived with Gentry for a time. He was one of the main sources of ballads and Jack tales in the family.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 03:29 PM

Hi,

Steve, the original MS is here with original title dated 1892 (by Roud, I presume, the MS is not dated). It also says Lolley got his version from a Driffield woman (East Riding, Yorkshire)
https://www.vwml.org/search?q=RN8%20lolley&is=1

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:07 PM

I know it is not a Carpenter version, but I know of another American version that mentions making a harp out of the girls breastbone which is not on your website yet:
The Two Sisters - Charles S. Brink

Sung by Charles Scott Brink near Smicksburg, Indiana County, Pennsylvania, on August 12, 1948 for Samuel Preston Bayard.

The recording was made available on Youtube a few years ago:
Samuel Preston Bayard folklore recordings- Charles S. Brink #4
The song begins at 10:12 in the video.

The "By Noling" refrain sounds to me like it may have originally been "Binnorie" or even "By Norham", it appears to be related to the most common Scottish form of the ballad.
The repetition of each line to make a four-line stanza with the refrain is also seen in the "Wind and Rain" variants which have a similar ending with the harp playing a tune that is the ballad itself.

Here's the Roud entry:
https://www.vwml.org/record/RoudFS/S372502

I wrote down the transcription of Mr. Brink's version as it was displayed in the video:

There was two sisters lived in the west,
By Noling, by Noling,
There was two sisters lived in the west,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

Along came a young lord and courted both of them,
By Noling, by Noling,
Along came a young lord and courted both of them,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The oldest one he gave a silver fan,
By Noling, by Noling,
The oldest one he gave a silver fan,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The youngest one he gave a gold ring,
By Noling, by Noling,
The youngest one he gave a gold ring,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The youngest one he intended for his bride,
By Noling, by Noling,
The youngest one he intended for his bride,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

These two sisters was crossing a stream,
By Noling, by Noling,
These two sisters was crossing a stream,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The oldest one she pushed the youngest in,
By Noling, by Noling,
The oldest one she pushed the youngest in,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

O sister, O sister, give to me your hand,
By Noling, by Noling,
O sister, O sister, give to me your hand, --
You may have the young lord and all of his command,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

No, sister, no, sister, I won't give you my hand,
For I can have the young lord and all of his command,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

She sank and she swam till she came to the miller's dam,
By Noling, by Noling,
She sank and she swam till she came to the miller's dam,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The miller he caught her on his hook,
By Noling, by Noling,
The miller he caught her on his hook,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

They took her breastbone and made a harp of it,
By Noling, by Noling,
They took her breastbone and made a harp of it,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The first tune he played on't was called the Silver Lea,
By Noling, by Noling,
The first tune he played on't was called the Silver Lea,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

A similar variant was also recorded by Alton Chester Morris from Mrs. C. S. MacClellan of High Springs, Florida in June 1937:
The Two Sisters - Mrs. C. S. MacClellan

Here's the Library of Congress reference:
https://www.loc.gov/item/afc9999005.5234

This variant of "The Twa Sisters" had some currency in Florida, but without the harp as far as I know.

Here's the text as Mrs. C. S. MacClellan sang it:

There was two sisters a-living in the East,
By Holding, by Holding,
There was two sisters a-living in the East,
Down by the waters rolling.

There was a young man and he courted them both,
By Holding, by Holding,
There was a young man and he courted them both,
Down by the waters rolling.

He loved the youngest as he loved his life,
By Holding, by Holding,
He loved the youngest as he loved his life,
Down by the waters rolling.

He gave the youngest a gay gold ring,
By Holding, by Holding,
He gave the youngest a gay gold ring,
Down by the waters rolling.

He gave the oldest a gay gold pin,
By Holding, by Holding,
He gave the oldest a gay gold pin,
Down by the waters rolling.

One day they was crossing a stream,
By Holding, by Holding,
One day they was crossing a stream,
Down by the waters rolling.

The oldest pushed the youngest in,
By Holding, by Holding,
The oldest pushed the youngest in,
Down by the waters rolling.

First she'd sink and then she'd swim,
By Holding, by Holding,
First she'd sink and then she'd swim,
Down by the waters rolling.

Sister, O sister, lend me your hand,
By Holding, by Holding,
Sister, O sister, lend me your hand,
Down by the waters rolling.

You can have the man and his house and his land,
By Holding, by Holding,
You can have the man and his house and his land,
Down by the waters rolling.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:28 PM

Hi,

TY, for the Bayard version. I have transcribed two other Bayard ballads from youtube. Many of Bayard's versions are excellent. See also his Irish version of Twa Sisters published by Barry in BFSSNE vol. 9 and 10. Bayard and Barry were two of the top New England (Bayard from PA) folk song authorities. Barry also published the first complete version of Twa Sister with "Wind and rain" refrain (1931), another distinct form with resuscitation stanzas. Barry wrote in 1935: "This version of The Two Sisters is unique: it is perhaps the most primitive that has survived in English tradition." He also labeled the Child versions of Twa Sisters to EE (failing to mention what Child AA and BB were).

Here's the oldest extant "Rolling" version from Georgia:

"Down by the Waters Rolling." Sung by Mrs. G. A. Griffin, learned in Georgia from her father before 1877, collected in Florida in 1937 by Morris.

There was two sisters living in the East,
By rolling, by rolling;
There was two sisters living in the East
Down by the waters rolling.

They were both courted by the young landlord,
By rolling, by rolling;
They were both courted by the young landlord,
Down by the waters rolling.

He gave the oldest a gay gold ring,
By rolling, by rolling;
He gave the oldest a gay gold ring,
Down by the waters rolling.

He gave the youngest a gay gold pin,
By rolling, by rolling;
He gave the youngest a gay gold pin,
Down by the waters rolling.

The eldest one shoved the youngest one in,
By rolling, by rolling;
"Sister, oh Sister, oh hand me your hand,
Down by the waters rolling."

"You can have the landlord and all his land,
By rolling, by rolling;
You can have the landlord and all his land,
Down by the waters rolling."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:36 PM

That's interesting, all of these "Down by the waters rolling" variants are very similar to each other.
There doesn't seem to be a sound recording of Mrs. Griffin's "Two Sisters" on the floridamemory site, even though many other of Griffin's excellent ballads are available there.

I also remember a recording of Ellen Stekert singing a New York version that also had the harp in it:
Songs of a New York Lumberjack


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:53 PM

Hi,

I suppose they should represent a specific sub-genre of Twa Sisters which I was planning on doing - and now will. Here's Ellen Stekert's text (to the link you provided).

Two Sisters- from Mr. Ezra ("Fuzzy") Barhight, age eighty-one, of Cohocton, New York. Fuzzy reported having learned this version from his mother; dated pre-1920.

There was two sisters lived in the West,
Bincely and binoly,
Was two sisters lived in the West,
Down where the waters is a-rolling.

There came a young lord and he courted them both,
There came a young lord and he courted them both.

To the youngest he gave her his heart and hand,
To the eldest he gave her a gay gold ring.

As these two sisters was crossing a bridge,
The youngest she pushed her sister in.

Oh, sister, oh, sister, give me your hand,
You can have the young lord and all of his land.

But she floated down to the miller's dam,
And the miller with his hook, well, he pulled her in.

Of her breastbone they made a harp,
Bineely and binoly,
Of her breastbone they made a harp,
Down where the waters is a-rolling.
* * * *

Richie


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