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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Richie Date: 12 Jul 18 - 01:08 PM Hi, TY Steve, you've been a big help. Brian here are the six versions from the Hicks/Harmon/Presnell family all with the flower/herb refrains: I. The herd/flower refrains, "Jury flower gent the roseberry," ("Gilliflower gentle rosemary") with resuscitation stanzas; archaic American, dated c.1779 through Big Sammy Hicks of Virginia then North Carolina. From relatives of Hicks, Harmon, Presnell families of North Carolina, Tennessee. a. "The Two Sisters." Sung by Mrs. Jane Gentry at Hot Springs, N. C. on September, 11, 1916; from Sharp's EFFSA, version A. b. "The Two Sisters." Recorded by Mrs. Henry from the singing of Mrs. Samuel Harmon, Cade's Cove, Blount County, Tennessee, August 13, 1930. From Mellinger Henry's 1938 book, Folk-Songs from the Southern Highlands, version C. c. "The Two Sisters," from Abrams, Variant 1, sung by Mrs. Nora Hicks, as copied down by Addie Hicks and given to Abrams by Edith Walker in 1939. From the Abrams Collection, part of Documenting Appalachia digital initiative at Appalachian State University. d. "The Two Sisters That Loved One Man," sung Lee Monroe Presnell from Beech Mountain NC, (Buna Hicks uncle), recorded by Frank Warner in 1951 without resuscitation stanzas. e. "The Two Sisters," sung by Maud Long (Jane Gentry's daughter). From the recording, "North Carolina Ballads" by Artus Moser, Folkways recording FA 2112, 1955. f. "Two Sisters." Sung by Hattie Presnell; a composite of versions from 1966 through 1971. From Some Ballad Folks, Burton, 1978. His notes follow. Hattie Presnell learned this from her Uncle Monroe. Kevin. As far as Maud Long's version, I meant the opening lines were fuller but after looking at it carefully Maud sings a different version of Twa Sisters with her mother's refrain. I'll ck Smith (her book on Jane Gentry) and see if there's anything there. Hattie Presnell's version is different also and similar to Uncle Monroe Presnell's version which is confused at the end. Both seem to be more Scottish. Only Jane Gentry, Nora Hicks and Mrs. Sam Harmon have versions with the resuscitation ending but all have the similar refrains. It's clear that my headnotes need to reflect that these versions are not the same- they just have the same refrains, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Richie Date: 12 Jul 18 - 01:39 PM Thanks for the questions, that improves that section-- headnotes changed now. Here's the only Carpenter version of Child 11. If anyone has the John Clare text (As three maidens played at ball, B7 34; Folk Tradition 186; Middle Period II 280) I need that. I'm curious to check the text of the Sloane MSS, 1489, fol. 16, from the early 1600s which has the same opening. It's published as a nursery rhyme by Halliwell. From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/D, pp. 04600-04601 The Cruel Brother- Miss Bell Duncan of Insch, Aberdeenshire. Learned from her mother There cam a man to my bedside o'er the hills an' far awa', He wis askin' me tae be his bride, For the wind blaws aye my plaid away'. My father he gaen his consent, An' my mother she wis weel content, My sister she was well pleased But my brother said she sudna reased, The weddin' was set and the weddin' came, An' the steed cam there to tak her hame, Her mother led her through the room, An' her sister dear she brocht her doon, Her father led her through the close, An' her brother set her on her horse, Below his cloak he wore a brand, He concealed it weel wi' his left hand, he has slipped it through a strae, An' through her body made it gae, They hadna ridden a mile bet ane; "Stop, stop! My bonnie bride's pale an' wan, Frae her steed she then was ta'en, An' her vera heairts bleed rin on the green, "Fat will ye leave tee yer father dear?" "The guid grey steed that brocht me here." "Fat will ye leave tee yer mother dear?" "Three long tits o my yellow hair," "Fat will ye leave tee yer sister dear?" "my marriage goon and the weed I wear," "Fat will ye leave tee yer Brother John?" "A high gallows tree for to hang on," "Fat will ye leave tee yer bother's wife?" "A vera sad an unhappy life," "Fat will ye leave tee yer brother's bairns?" "That they may die in each other's arms." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: GUEST Date: 12 Jul 18 - 02:26 PM Thank you for listing all the versions, Richie, from glancing over all the Hicks/Harmon/Presnell versions each one of them is a bit different in details, if they all came from the same family tradition they might have been influenced by other traditional versions (and forgetfulness) to various degrees. I'll give the links to the texts here for others to compare them easily: Nora Hicks: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/the-two-sisters--hicks-nc-pre1939-walkerabram Hattie Presnell: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/two-sisters--hattie-presnell-nc-1966-burton.a Lee Monroe Presnell: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/two-sisters-that-loved-one-man--presnell-nc-1 Nora Hicks', Hattie Presnell's and Lee Monroe Presnell's versions are closely related, but Hattie's and Lee Monroe's are missing the ending completely. Nora Hicks' version is the most complete US version I've seen so far, rivaled only by Aunt Becky Gordon's "Edinboro" version (See Brown C). It's very unfortunate that no sound recording of Nora's version was made, I know that she was recorded by Frank C. Brown and William Amos Abrams, but they apparently missed this song. Jane Gentry: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/the-two-sisters--jane-gentry-nc-1916--sharp-a Maud Long: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/the-two-sisters--maud-long-nc-1955-rec-moser- Jane Gentry's and Maud Long's are still similar, but Maud's has picked up the opening stanza of another standard "Bow Down" version. One stanza: O, as they walked down to the water's brim The oldest pushed the youngest in. Is very different in Jane Gentry's: She picked her up all in her strong arms And threwed her sister into the sea. Maud Long's version has also replaced the harp ending with the standard "miller robs her and gets hanged" ending from the "Bow Down" versions. I think you are right about the singer trying to get a more complete text for the collector, Steve, perhaps Maud Long has heard the "Bow Down" version of the ballad somewhere and filled out her own version with that. Mrs. Samuel Harmon: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/the-two-sisters--harmon-tn-1930-henry-c.aspx Mrs. Samuel Harmon's version is a bit like a missing link. It is missing much of the story, but it has the Presnell opening stanza: 1. Was two sisters loved one man, Jelly flower jan; The rose marie; The jury hangs o'er The rose marie. 2. He loved the youngest a little the best, Jelly flower jan etc. The refrain at the end of each stanza is like Jane Gentry's version. It has the harp stanzas, but here it's "she", apparently the bad sister herself that makes the harp. The harp then plays: 8. The first string says, "Yonder sets my sister on a rock Tying of a true-love's knot," 9. The next string says, "She pushed me in the deep so far." Which recalls an earlier stanza from Jane Gentry's version: 7. O the farmer's wife was sitting on a rock, Tying and a-sewing of a black silk knot. I guess that Mrs. Samuel Harmon's ending was once part of Jane Gentry's version too, but eventually forgotten. Those are my observations for now. -Kevin W. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Brian Peters Date: 12 Jul 18 - 02:55 PM Here you go, Richie. Exactly as in Deacon's book, except that I've changed his irritating ampersands for 'and's. Child 11, from John Clare As three maidens played at ball Aye & the lily aye There came three knights among them all And the roseys sweet in mary The first gay knight was cloathed in green (white) And he asked one maid to be his queen The next good knight was cloathed in white And he asked the maid to be his bride The next good [k]night was cloathed in red And he asked the maid if she woud wed O you must ask my father dear Likewise my mother that did me bare And you must ask my lover John I rkcwise my sisters everyone O I have asked your father dear Likewise your mother that did you bear O I have asked your brother John Likewise your sisters everyone Her father gave her at the door Her mother swooned upon the floor Her father gave her at the stile And her mother swoonded for her child Her father gave her at the cross And her brother helped her on the horse He had a penknife long and sharp And prickt his sister to the heart Ride on ride on you fast good man I think your bride looks pale and wan Ride on ride on you next good man (knight) I think your bride goes bleeding on Ride on ride on you jolly bridegroom I think your bride is almost dumb She rode till she came to yonder hill And there she lit and made her will What will you leave your father dear My wedding steed that brought me here What will you give your mother dear My wedding dress That she may long upon the grief And see she has a daughter less What will you leave your sister ann All I do wear on my right hand What will you give your sister Jane My cambric cap and gown of green What will you give your sister Sue My wedding hat with ribbons blue What will you give your brother Johns wife Sorrow and trouble all her life What will you give your brother Johns child A father only a little wild What will you give your brother John The gallows mother to hang upon Peterborough MS. 87 p.34 Note to text: the words in brackets are those which Clare has deleted. Untitled in the manuscript, this ballad is a version of Child, No. 11,'The Cruel Brother'. In other versions it is often difficult to establish a reason for the murder of the bride by her brother. Clare’s text, however, clearly states that the suitor must ask permission of her 'lover brother'. The existence of an incestuous relationship is thus established. Incest is the cause of fratricide in several other ballads, such as 'Sheath and Knife' (Child, No. 16),'The Bonny Hind' (Child, No.50) and 'Lizzie Wan' (Child, No.51 ). It is interesting to note it is incest between brother and sister and not father and daughter. There is no mention of a child or pregnancy as there is in the other examples given. Blood ties between brother and sister and her future children could have been strong enough to warrant the brother's permission being necessary prior to the marriage, and the groom's assurance that he had sought that permission could be a lie. Another common feature in this ballad is the last will and testament ending, which also occurs in 'Lord Randal'. Although Clare has not given a source this obviously has its roots in oral culture. However it has not been widely collected, Bronson giving only eleven tunes. Clare’s text provides a useful link between the broadside texts of the seventeenth century and the versions subsequently collected and this may well be another example of a song from his own experience and memory rather than a 'collected song'. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: GUEST,Kevin W. Date: 12 Jul 18 - 02:56 PM It's just coincidence, but I've recently tried to noise reduce some of the Bell Duncan recordings from the Carpenter collection. Here's my try on The Cruel Brother: https://soundcloud.com/user-860765554/bell-duncan-the-cruel-brother-noise-reduce The Cruel Brother - Recorded by James Madison Carpenter from Bell Duncan of Lambhill, Inch, Aberdeenshire c.1934. There is a cylinder recording of this song in the Carpenter Collection. Of this cylinder two disc transfers were made. All the recordings contain the same stanzas, so I've decided to use the recording that has the best audio quality instead of including many near identical (and near unlistenable) recordings. This version uses the burden and tune of "The Elfin Knight", which Bell Duncan also sang. There cam a man tae my bed side, Ower the hills an far a-wa'; He wis askin me tae be his bride, For the wind blows aye my plaid a-wa'. My father he gae his consent, Ower the hills an far a-wa, And my mother she wis weel con-tent, For the wind blaws aye my plaid a-wa'. My sister said she was well pleased, Ower the hills an far a-wa, And my brother said she sud-na reesed, For the wind blaws aye my plaid a-wa. And here's The Twa Magicians: https://soundcloud.com/user-860765554/bell-duncan-the-twa-magicians-noise-reduce The Twa Magicians - Recorded by James Madison Carpenter from Bell Duncan of Lambhill, Inch, Aberdeenshire c.1934. She becam a girdle And he becam a cake, And a' things that she did become, And ' he becam' her make. And it's bide, lassie, bide, And aye he bade her bide, And be a brookie smith's wife, And that'll lay yer pride. She becam a duke, a duke, Tae puddle in a peel, An' he becam a drake, a drake, Tae gie the duke a dreel. And it's bide, lassie, bide, And aye he bade her bide, And be a brookie smith's wife, And that'll lay yer pride. And another coincidence, I just recently bought a copy of Deacon's book because I was interested in Clare's version of The Daemon Lover. Here's John Clare's Cruel Brother: 1 As three maidens played at ball Aye & the lily aye There came three knights among them all & the roseys sweet in mary 2 The first gay knight was cloathed in green (white) Aye &c &c & he asked one maid to be his queen & &c 3 The next good knight was cloathed in white & he asked the maid to be his bride 4 The next good [k]night was cloathed in red & he asked the maid if she would wed 5 O you must ask my father dear Likewise my mother that did me bare 6 & you must ask my lover John Likewise my sisters every one 7 O I have asked your father dear Likewise your mother that did you bear 8 O I have asked your brother John Likewise your sisters every one 9 Her father gave her at the door Her mother swooned upon the floor 10 Her father gave her at the stile & her mother swoonded for her child 11 Her father gave her at the cross & her brother helped her on the horse 12 He had a penknife long & sharp & prickt his sister to the heart 13 Ride on ride on you fast good man I think your bride looks pale & wan 14 Ride on ride on you next good man (knight) I think your bride goes bleeding on 15 Ride on ride on you jolly bridegroom I think your bride is almost dumb 16 She rode till she came to yonder hill & there she lit & made her will 17 What will you leave your father dear My wedding steed that brought me here 18 What will you give your mother dear My wedding dress 19 That she may long upon the grief & see she has a daughter less 20 What will you leave your sister ann All I do wear on my right hand 21 What will you give your sister Jane My cambric cap & gow nof green 22 What will you give your sister Sue My wedding hat with ribbons blue 23 What will you give your brother Johns wife Sorrow & trouble all her life 24 What will you give your brother Johns child A father only a little wild 25 What will you give your brother John The gallows mother to hang upon Sources Text given Peterborough MS. B7 p. 34 Note to text: The words in brackets are those which Clare has deleted. While we're at it, I can give you Clare's "Daemon Lover" as well, I recently typed it down: Taken from my Mothers singing 1 Whos that under my window That doth so sigh & moan Is it my father dear Or is it my brother John Or is it my own true love That from Scotland has newly come home. 2 It is not your father dear It is not your brother John But it is your own true love That from Scotland has newly come home James Ellice is my name you know Altho youve lost the vow 3 Im new come from the salt salt sea & its all for the sake of loving thee I might have had a kings daughter & she would have married me & have forgone her golden crown & all for the sake of thee 4 If you might have had a kings daughter You none were much to blame I would not for a thousand pound My husband should hear the same 5 My husband is a carpenter A ship carpenter is he & by him Ive a little son Or love Id go with thee 6 If youll forsake your husband dear Your little son also I will your former vows forgive If you will with me go 7 If I forsake my husband dear My little son also What have you to maintain me on If with you I should go 8 Ive seven ships sails on the seas & one of them brought me to land With carpenters & mariners & all at your command 9 A pair of slippers you shall have All of the beaten gold With rich velvet they shall be lined To keep your feet from cold 10 When he did tell her these fine tales Her heart he gan to win & cause he was drest like a man She up & let him in 11 A pair of slippers she put on They shined like beaten gold 12 She had not sailed on the sea Past days two or three Before she gan to weep & wail & wept most bitterly 13 Did you weep for gold he said Or do you weep for fee Or do you weep for any man You do love better than me 14 O I dont weep for gold she said Nor I dont weep for fee But I do weep for my little son That cries for his mothers knee 15 She had not sailed on the sea Past days three & four When she & ship & all were sunk & never was seen no more 16 O cursed be these mariners They lead a wicked life Theyve ruined this young carpenter & deluded away his wife Sources Text given Peterborough MS B4, p. 46 |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: GUEST,Kevin W. Date: 12 Jul 18 - 02:59 PM Whoops, looks like Brian did so as well and we both posted the text. Anyways, here are the notes to John Clare's Daemon Lover: This song is another of those not commonly encountered in English collections from oral sources. Untitled in the only manuscript copy, which shows no sign of having been altered or Corrected by Clare, it is a version of "The Daemon Lover" (Child, No. 243). Despite the resemblance between the first two verses of Clare's version and the opening verses of "Sweet William's Ghost" (Child, No. 77), comparison with the text that Child prints from Bucan's Ballads of North of Scotland reveals a remarkably similar opening to the ballad. Apart from providing us with evidence of the ballad's having been sung in Northamptonshire, Clare's version also retains not only the unusual opening but a stronger reminder of the ghostly nature of the returning lover than do most versions (see verse 10 "& cause he was drest like a man"). Songs on the theme of returning ghost lovers are not uncommon and useful comparisons can be made with "Sweet William's Ghost" and songs bearing the title "The Lover's Ghost" or "The Grey Cock", and with Clare's own "Shipwreck Ghost". Verse 11, which lacks two lines, may be completed by inserting variants of lines 3 and 4 of verse 9, i. e. With rich velvet they were lined To keep her feet from cold The only other problem is the variation in verse length (from six lines to four lines). I have chosen to use a four-line tune, repeating the last two lines of the tune for the first three, although a six-line tune could be employed with a repetition of the last two lines of each verse. This, while not common is not unknown in other versions of the song. It is perhaps worth noting that this song is one of the survivors in the oral tradition from the black-letter broadside tradition, having been printed in the seventeenth century with the following title: "A Warning for Married Women Being an example of Mrs Jane Reynolds (a West Country Woman) born near Plimouth, who having plighted her Troth to a Seaman, was afterwards married to a Carpenter, and at last carried away by a Spirit, the manner how shall presently be recited. To a West country tune, call'd The Fair Maid of Bristol, or, John True." London: Printed for A.M. W.O. And T. Thackeray in Duck Lane. The above is taken from a copy in the British Library which has thirty-two verses of four lines. The initials are those of A. Milbourn and W. Onley who, with Thackeray, were printing in London during the seventeenth century. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Brian Peters Date: 12 Jul 18 - 03:00 PM "I just recently bought a copy of Deacon's book because I was interested in Clare's version of The Daemon Lover. Here's John Clare's Cruel Brother" Beat you by a minute, Kevin! Yes, I too think Clare's Demon Lover is very interesting. As is this 'Cruel Brother' which I'd never looked at before. I know we've duplicated here, but at least it taught me how to scan text on my (relatively) new scanner, so the effort wasn't wasted! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: GUEST,Kevin W. Date: 12 Jul 18 - 03:39 PM I agree, Brian, John Clare's version of The Cruel Brother is beautiful. (And you just reminded me that I could use a scanner as well, silly me, I typed it all by hand with the book next to my PC and now my hand hurts). One thing that's a bit unusual about John Clare's text is that the knight replies that he has asked her brother John as well (was the knight lying to her?): 8 O I have asked your brother John Likewise your sisters every one In many versions this verse is not in first person, it often runs something like this: He did ask her sister Anne But he forgot her brother John. Which is actually the reason why the brother feels betrayed and stabs her. The same "mistake" (I'm really not sure if it is one) also shows up in Edith Ballinger Price's Massachusetts text from about 1914: "Oh, I have asked your father the king And I have asked your mother the queen. "And I have asked your sister Anne And I have asked your brother John." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: GUEST,Kevin W. Date: 12 Jul 18 - 03:42 PM And again, I should have read the notes... In Clare's version her brother John is also her lover, I somehow missed that. I never noticed that The Cruel Brother had an incest element to it, maybe I should check the Child versions again. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Richie Date: 12 Jul 18 - 03:49 PM Thanks Kevin and Brian, Kevin, you're detailed notes are helpful. The gift of the "beaver cap" shows Maud's version has brought in stanzas from the standard US versions represented by Child Y. My theory is that the Hick/Harmon versions with resuscitation stanzas predate the standard English text and that the latter was derived from this early version but the resuscitation stanzas were dropped or forgotten. As far as Child 11 it was popular then disappeared in the mid-1800s. Does anyone have Baring-Gould's version? As I remember a version was sent to him and he also had a nursery version he published. The traditional ballad index infers that the cruel brother kills his sister because of jealousy rather than because his permission was not obtained-- and that the evidence is found in the dying bride's will. Anyone have versions that support this? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Jul 18 - 04:24 PM The Baring Gould versions will be on the EFDSS website. I'll send you the Crawfurd versions later tonight. Surely Child's headnotes cover motives. The permission not obtained is a common motive to ballads is it not? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Richie Date: 12 Jul 18 - 04:51 PM Steve, TY Yes, that is the motive- permission not obtained from her brother. I was just wondering about the Traditional ballad index info. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Jul 18 - 06:16 PM You should have more confidence in your own findings. Any advice from me and the others here and the DT and even Child is not guaranteed to be right. Once you have gathered together all of the versions you have much more info than Child had and more than the rest of us here. By all means flag up any questionable points on meanings etc. Regarding a possible incest element one needs to be cautious with this if it only occurs in one interim version. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 12 Jul 18 - 08:22 PM My interest in Carpenter is more aroun his thesis than his collection due to the maritime focus. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Richie Date: 12 Jul 18 - 09:05 PM Hi, SPB Cooperator, elaborate of Carpenter's thesis please :) I've just read the posts more carefully and it's clear in Clare's version that the motive for the murder is jealousy and is evidence that in several versions the brother was asked permission yet still stabs his sister. In the notes it says, "Clare’s text provides a useful link between the broadside texts of the seventeenth century and the versions subsequently collected. . ." What are the broadside texts of the seventeenth century? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Richie Date: 12 Jul 18 - 10:49 PM Hi, Baring Gould sent a fragment of "Fine Flowers" to Child (SBG/5 Harvard / Child book: Ballads and Songs Collected by the Rev. S. Baring-Gould, chiefly in Devonshire, and sent by him to Prof. F.J. Child (now in Harvard) Feb. 26, 1892). There's some info below, some of which I've taken from the DT. The original letter is here, Sabine Baring-Gould Manuscript Collection (SBG/5/64): https://www.vwml.org/search?q=RN26%20baring-gould&is=1 My transcription follows: [The flowers that were in the valley] 1. There was a woman and she was a widow The flowers that bloom in the valley A daughter she had as the Elan tree, O the red, the green and the yellow, The harp, the lute, the fife the flute and the cymbal Sweet was this treble violin The flowers that bloom in the valley. 2. There comes a knight all clothed in red, The flowers that bloom in the valley O and will you be my bride, & etc. 3. There comes a second all clothed in green, The flowers that bloom in the valley, And he said, Fair maid will you be my queen, & etc The first stanza was noted by Frederick William Bussell and Sabine Baring Gould from Mary Gilbert and her brother William, both of the Falcon Inn, about 1880. William Gilbert's verse appears in Cecil Sharp's MSS, and is also quoted by Bronson (vol.I p.190, 11:9): There was a widow all forlorn Nine brave boys of her body were borne [sic] Flowers that were in the Valley The harp the lute the fife the flute & the cymbal Sweet goes the treble violin Flowers that were in the Valley. The other stanzas that Baring-Gould sent to Child were quoted in Bronson: Baring Gould, "I have had what is clearly the same melody with the same burden of The Flowers in the Valley and the enumeration of the instruments in connection with the Three Knights". It is described as "Sung by Mr. Old, at the same time as the other variant". There was a Knight all clothed in red The flowers that were in the valley O and wilt thou be my bride? he said O the red, the green and the yellow. The harp, the lute, &c. There came a second all clothed in green The flowers that were in the valley. And he said, My Fair, wilt thou be my queen" O the red, the green and the yellow. The harp, the lute, &c. There came a third, in yellow was he The flowers that were in the valley, And he said, My bride for sure thoul't be, O the red, the green and the yellow. The harp, the lute, &c. * * * * Baring Gould published a reworked version in "A Garland of Country Song": O there was a woman and she was a widow Fair are the flowers in the valley With a daughter as fair as a fresh sunny meadow The Red, the Green and the Yellow The Harp - The Lute - The Pipe, the Flute, the Cymbal, Sweet goes the treble violin The maid so rare, and the flowers so fair Together they grew in the Valley There came a Knight all clothed in red Fair are the flowers in the valley "I would thou wert my bride", he said, The Red, the Green and the Yellow The Harp - The Lute - The Pipe, the Flute, the Cymbal, Sweet goes the treble violin "I would", she sighed, "ne'er wins a bride!" Fair are the flowers in the valley. There came a Knight all clothed in green Fair are the flowers in the valley "This maid so sweet might be my queen", The Red, the Green and the Yellow The Harp - The Lute - The Pipe, the Flute, the Cymbal, Sweet goes the treble violin "Might be", sighed she, "will ne'er win me!" Fair are the flowers in the valley. There came a Knight in yellow was he Fair are the flowers in the valley "My bride, my queen, thou must with me!, The Red, the Green and the Yellow The Harp - The Lute - The Pipe, the Flute, the Cymbal, Sweet goes the treble violin With blushes red, "I come", she said "Farewell to the flowers in the valley." Source: A Garland of Country Song, ISBN 1-86143 071 X Notes: Collected by S Baring-Gould from Mr Gilbert, The Falcon Inn, Mawgan, Pydar, Cornwall, about 1880. Baring-Gould wrote: This exquisite melody along with fragments only of the words were obtained from Mr Gilbert, the Falcon Inn, Mawgan in Pydar, Cornwall, as he recalled having heard it sung by Thomas Williams, a man of ninety, who died in 1881. His words, however, were relative to nine sons of the widow - Three of them were seamen so brave, Three of them were soldiers so bold, Three of them - [rest forgotten] Then the last verse was "There was an end of the nine brave boys." We have striven in vain to recover this ballad. However, as I have had what is clearly the same melody with the same burden of "The Fowers in the Valley" and the enumeration of the instruments in connection with the "Three Knights, the Red, the Green and the Yellow" we have used these words. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: GUEST,Kevin W. Date: 13 Jul 18 - 06:39 AM Was there a broadside print of Child 11, The Cruel Brother during the sixteenth century? Accordign to the notes in the John Calre book it should exist. Looking at the Roud Index I found these entries: Fine Flowers of the Valley Source Lane: Catalogue..Chapbooks & Broadsides..Harvard College No.839 Format Printed : Street literature : Broadside / Chapbook catalogue Src Contents Reference only It's just a reference, there's no text to go by. And another one: The Cruel Brother First Line There was three ladies play'd at the ba' Source Tragical Ballad of Lord John's Murder, The Format Printed : Street literature : Chapbook Printer / Publisher [For the Booksellers] (Glasgow) No.79 Here's the text for that one: http://digital.nls.uk/chapbooks-printed-in-scotland/archive/108701622?mode=fulls Together with The cruel brother. Glasgow : Printed for the booksellers, [1840-1850?]. But the date is too late. I can't find anything earlier than that. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: GUEST,Kevin W. Date: 13 Jul 18 - 06:42 AM Oh, I think it is the one I posted above, John Clare's book says seventeenth century, not sixteenth. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Jul 18 - 01:16 PM The NLS chapbook version is taken verbatim from Jamieson. I think George was mixing this up with another similar ballad, perhaps Fair Flower of Northumberland. As far as I know there is no early broadside in English, or in fact any broadside other than that taken from collections like Jamieson/Herd etc. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Richie Date: 13 Jul 18 - 02:59 PM Hi, Here's the chapbook text from National Library of Scotland: Tragical ballad of Lord John's murder, Together with The cruel brother. Glasgow: Printed for the booksellers, [1840-1850?]. THE CRUEL BROTHER. There was three ladies play’d at the ba' With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay; There came a knight, and play’d o’er them a’, As the primrose spreads so sweetly. The eldest was baith tall and fair, W ith a heigh-ho! and a lily gay; But the youngest was beyond compare, As the primrose spreads so sweetly. The midmost had a gracefu’ mien, With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay; But the youngest look’d like beauty’s queen. As the primrose spreads so sweetly. The knight bow’d low to a’ the three. With a heigh-ho ! and a lily gay; But to the youngest he bent his knee. As the primrose spreads so sweetly. The lady turned her head aside. With a heigh-ho: and a lily gay; The knight he woo’d her to be his bride. As the primrose spreads so sweetly. The lady blush’d a rosy red, With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay; And said, “ Sir knight, I’m o’er young to wed, As the primrose spreads so sweetly.” “O, lady fair, give me your hand, With a heigh ho! and a lily gay; And I’ll mak’ you lady of a’ my land, As the primrose spreads so sweetly.” "Sir knight, ere you my favour win, With a heigh ho! and a lily gay; Ye maun get consent frae a’ my kin’, As the primrose spreads so sweetly.” He has got consent frae her parents dear, With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay; And likewise frae her sisters fair, As the primrose spreads so sweetly. He has got consent frae her kin each one, With a heigh ho! and a lily gay; But forgot to spear at her brother John, As the primrose spreads so sweetly. Now, when the wedding-day was come, With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay; The knight would take his bonnie bride home, As the primrose spreads so sweetly. And many a lord and many a knight, With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay; Came to behold that lady bright, As the primrose spreads so sweetly. And there was nae man that did her see. With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay; But wished himself bridegroom to be. As the primrose spreads so sweetly. Her father dear led her down the stair. With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay; And her sisters twain thev kiss’d her there As the primrose spreads so sweetly. Her mother dear led her through the close. With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay; And her brother John set her on the horse. As the primrose spreads so sweetly. She lean’d her o’er the saddle bow, W ith a heigh-ho! and a lily gay; To give him a kiss ere she did go, As the primrose spreads so sweetly. He has ta’en a knife, baith lang and sharp, With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay; And stabb’d the bonnie bride to the heart As the primrose spreads so sweetly. She hadna ridden half through the town. With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay. Until her heart’s blood stained her gown. As the primrose spreads so sweetly. “Ride saftly on,” said the best young man, With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay; For I think our bonnie bride looks pale and wan, As the primrose spreads so sweetly.” “0, lead me gently up yon hill, With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay; And I’ll there sit down, and make my will, As the primrose spreads so sweetly.” ”O, what will you leave to your father dear, With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay?” The silver shod steed that brought me here. As the primrose spreads so sweetly.” “What will you leave to your mother dear, With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay?” “My velvet pall and silken gear. As the primrose spreads so sweetly.” “And what will you leave to your sister Ann, With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay?” “My silken scarf and my golden fan. As the primrose spreads so sweetly.” “What will you leave to your sister Grace, With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay?” “My bloody cloaths to wash and dress. As the primrose spreads so sweetly.” “What will you leave to your brother John, With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay?” “The gallows-tree to hang him on, As the primrose spreads so sweetly.” “What will ye leave to your brother John’s wife, With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay?” “The wilderness to end her life. As the primrose spreads so sweetly.” This fair lady in her grave was laid, With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay; And a mass was o’er her said, As the primrose spreads so sweetly. But it would have made your heart right sair, With a heigh-ho! and a lily gay; To see the bridegroom rive his hair. As the primrose spreads so sweetly. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:08 PM Of all the incongruities between ballad text and refrain this one must take the prize! It's almost the level of burlesque. I can visualise Sam Cowell performing this, or Joe Grimaldi. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Richie Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:08 PM Hi, Here's a version from Dorset that was collected in Boston. What I'm curious about are Barry's cryptic notes. This version was first published by Phillips Barry in his 1908 book, Folk Songs of the North Atlantic States. Also in The Ballad of the Cruel Brother by Phillips Barry; The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 28, No. 109 (Jul. - Sep., 1915), pp. 300-301. What Barry doesn't say, and it's misleading, is, that the text was from E. S. Porter's MS which was borrowed from Mrs. Dorothy Fuller Irving of Sturminster, Dorset. The melody was noted from Rosalind Fuller of Dorset, in Boston, MA. Barry: The texts hitherto known--excluding, of course, those obviously defective--agree, in that the bride is killed by her brother because his consent to the wedding has not been sought. In the present version the situation is unique, the brother acting as the agent of his wife's ill will. A motive for the curse in the final stanza is thus clear. 1. 'Three Ladies played at cup and ball, - (With a hey! and my lily gay!) Three Knights there came among them all. (The rose it smells so sweetly!) 2. And one of them was dressed in green, - He asked me to be his queen. 3. And one of them was dressed in yellow, - He asked me to be his fellow. 4. And one of them was dressed in red,- He asked me with him to wed. 5. "But you must ask my father the King, And you must ask my mother the Queen, - 6. "And you must ask my sister Anne, And you must ask my brother John." 7. "Oh, I have asked your father the King, And I have asked your mother the Queen, - 8. "And I have asked your sister Anne, And I have asked your brother John." 9. Her father led her down the stairs, Her mother led her down the hall. 10. Her sister Anne led her down the walk, Her brother John put her on her horse. 11. And as she stooped to give him a kiss, He stuck a penknife into her breast. 12. "Ride up, ride up, my foremost man! Methinks my lady looks pale and wan!" 13. "Oh what will you leave to your father the King?" "The golden coach that I ride in." 14. "And what will you leave to your mother the Queen?" "The golden chair that I sat in." 15. "And what will you leave to your sister Anne?" "My silver brooch and golden fan." 16. "And what will you leave to your brother John?" "A pair of gallows to hang him on." 17. "And what will you leave to your brother John's wife?" "Grief and misfortune all her life." * * * * It seems that Barry is implying that stanza 17 reveals the animosity directed not only to Brother John but also his wife and in some versions this children. Why would she harbor hatred for his family on her deathbed? Suggestions on what Barry means? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: GUEST,Kevin W. Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:31 PM Richie, Mrs. Dorothy Fuller Irving's Dorset text is near identical to the one recorded by Helen Hartness Flanders & Marguerite Olney from Edith Ballinger Price, of Rhode Island, who learned it from an old lady of Massachusetts c.1914: https://soundcloud.com/user-860765554/edith-ballinger-price-three-ladies-played- "Three Ladies Played at Ball" - Sung by Edith Ballenger Price, Newport, Rhode Island, 10-25-1945. Three ladies played at cup and ball, With a hey and a lady gay! Three knights there came among them all, The rose that[1*] smells so sweetly! And one of them was dressed in red, He asked me with him to wed. And one of them was dressed in yellow, He asked me to be his fellow. And one of them was dressed in green, He asked me to be his queen. "Oh, you must ask my father the king And you must ask my mother the queen." "And you must ask my sister Anne And you must ask my brother John." [two verses are missing here. Curiously the recording actually contains these verses which are missing from the transcription: "Oh, I have asked your father the king And I have asked your mother the queen. "And I have asked your sister Anne And I have asked your brother John."] Her father the king led her down the hall, Her mother the queen led her down the stairs. Her sister Anne led her down the path, Her brother John sat her on her horse. And as she bent to give him a kiss He stuck a[2*] penknife into her breast. "Now, up and ride, my foremost man! My lady fair looks pale and wan!" "Oh, what will you leave to your father the king?" "The golden chair that I sit in!" "And what will you leave to your mother the queen?" "The golden coach that I ride in!" "And what will you leave to your sister Anne?" "My silver brooch and ivory fan!" "And what will you leave to your brother John?" "A pair of gallows to hang him on!" [1*] Miss Price sings "it" on the recording. [2*] Miss Price sings "his" on the recording. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: GUEST,Kevin W. Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:38 PM A small correction: Her name is actually Ballinger, not Ballenger, as stated in the Flanders book and in Bronson and the date is October 23rd, according to the sound recording. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:49 PM Ancient curses are often not only directed to the receiver of the curse, but to his family and estate as well. An alternative meaning in this version could be that since John was asked and his wife wasn't, that his wife was insulted and directed her husband to take revenge for her. Though I think in the earliest versions he forgets to ask her brother. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Richie Date: 14 Jul 18 - 10:11 PM Hi, Ty Steve for a different take on the two "John was asked" ballads. It seems to me just as likely that the "he was asked" stanzas are simply corrupt and forgot that the bridegroom forgot. Certainly the John Clare version seems like a corruption ("lover" for brother") since it doesn't repeat "lover John" the second time, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Steve Gardham Date: 15 Jul 18 - 09:13 AM I'm inclined to agree with you, Richie. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Richie Date: 15 Jul 18 - 04:41 PM Hi, Child 11D is a fragment, but seems rather to be a version of Child 10 and I've listed it there. The refrain, however, matches neither Child 10 nor 11. D is taken second hand in America from a lady who was a native of County Kerry, Ireland. 1 There were three ladies playing at ball, Farin-dan-dan and farin-dan-dee There came a white knight, and he wooed them all. With adieu, sweet honey, wherever you be 2 He courted the eldest with golden rings, Farin-dan-dan and farin-dan-dee And the others with many fine things. And adieu, sweet honey, wherever you be Child 11K was taken from Notes and Queries (1869) as "sung in Cheshire amongst the people in the last century" but hardly qualifies as a version. After a similar "three ladies playing at ball" opening stanza, three knights propose to the ladies who reject them-- there is no wedding and therefore no murder. 1 There were three ladies playing at ball, Gilliver, Gentle, and Rosemary There came three knights and looked over the wall. Sing O the red rose and the white lilly 2 The first young knight, he was clothed in red, Gilliver, Gentle, and Rosemary And he said, 'Gentle lady, with me will you wed?' Sing O the red rose and the white lilly 3 The second young knight, he was clothed in blue, Gilliver, Gentle, and Rosemary And he said, 'To my love I shall ever be true.' Sing O the red rose and the white lilly 4 The third young knight, he was clothed in green, Gilliver, Gentle, and Rosemary And he said, 'Fairest maiden, will you be my queen?' Sing O the red rose and the white lilly 5 The lady thus spoke to the knight in red, Gilliver, Gentle, and Rosemary 'With you, sir knight, I never can wed.' Sing O the red rose and the white lilly 6 The lady then spoke to the knight in blue, Gilliver, Gentle, and Rosemary And she said, 'Little faith I can have in you.' Sing O the red rose and the white lilly 7 The lady then spoke to the knight in green, Gilliver, Gentle, and Rosemary And she said, 'Tis at court you must seek for a queen.' Sing O the red rose and the white lilly 8 The three young knights then rode away, Gilliver, Gentle, and Rosemary And the ladies they laughed, and went back to their play. Singing O the red rose and the white lilly Comments? Since this thread is getting long a new thread will be started in a few days and begin with the Carpenter versions of Child 12. Thanks for the comments and posts everyone, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 15 Jul 18 - 05:24 PM Re. The Lane catalogue entry for Fine Flowers of the Valley. Roud does give the date as 1795. The full entry from the Lane catalogue is: 839. Fine flowers of the valley. To which are added, Frennet Hall, and My Nanny O. 1795 sm. 16°. pp.8. Wdct on t.p. 33.11 The first piece is in the form of the ballad of the "Cruel brother" given in Herds " Scottish songs," i. 88. Child, No. 11 (i. 148). "The modern, and extremely vapid, ballad of, 'Frennet Hall' appeared originally (I suppose) in Herd's 'Scottish songs,' 1776, i. 142." Child, iv. 39. The old ballad, "The fire of Frendraught," (Child, No. 196) tells the same story in greater detail. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Steve Gardham Date: 15 Jul 18 - 06:09 PM Yes it seems the street lit printers in Scotland were using the published collections to fill up their chapbooks, thus recirculating particular versions. Here we have examples of Herd and Jamieson being used and I'm pretty certain Scott's Minstrelsy was treated in the same way. Of course some of the upmarket printers also raided Percy. FWIW 11D appears to be a hybrid of 10 & 11. Yes 11K should not really be accepted as a version of 11 by modern standards, a one-off rewrite perhaps. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Kevin Werner Date: 16 Jul 18 - 06:34 AM I was thinking about Child 11D. As far as I know in none of the other Child 11 Cruel Brother versions does a knight offer golden rings or any such gift to a woman. The stanza, He courted the eldest with golden rings, And the others with many fine things. really belongs to Child 10 The Twa Sisters. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Steve Gardham Date: 16 Jul 18 - 11:03 AM Absolutely! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Richie Date: 17 Jul 18 - 09:13 AM Hi, My notes and UK versions are here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/english-and-other-versions--11-the-cruel-brother.aspx Another thread will be started shortly for Child 12: Lord Randal, Please post comments here, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Steve Gardham Date: 17 Jul 18 - 10:09 AM Hi Richie Taking a leaf from the FSE thread I have just started to reread Gerould and pp17-19 have some very good info on Child 12. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 From: Richie Date: 17 Jul 18 - 06:38 PM Hi Steve, Great. I've already started the next thread. Please email me the appropriate pages. Looks like there are about 20-25 Carpenter versions, Richie |
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