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Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3

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Richie 23 May 18 - 04:00 PM
Richie 23 May 18 - 04:45 PM
Richie 25 May 18 - 09:15 PM
Lighter 26 May 18 - 08:24 AM
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GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP) 28 May 18 - 10:18 AM
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*#1 PEASANT* 29 May 18 - 07:09 PM
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Subject: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 23 May 18 - 04:00 PM

Hi,

This is a new thread. We're moving on to James Madison Carpenter Collection versions of Child 9: Fair Flower o Northumberland. Soon the James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2 thread will be closed. Please direct all comments to this thread.

Here's an older version of Child 9 from the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, pp. 04842-04843, with several corrupt stanzas:

    "Fair Flooer o Northumberland," sung by Mrs. A. Lyall of Skene, Dunecht, Aberdeenshire, c.1880. Learned about 50 years ago from her mother, Mrs Ella Roy. Her mother lived in Lyne of Skene and learned ballads from her father and grandfather.

Ae Scottish prisoner was makin' his moan[1],
O gin her love it was easily won,
"O gin I had but a lady to woo,
I would mak her a lady, and that would do."

Ae provost's daughter was walkin' alone,
O but her love it was easily won,
She heard this Scottish prisoner makin his moan,
And she the fair Flooer o' Northumberland.

She hied her to her father's stable,
O but her love it was easily won,
And she's stow'd a steed baith stoot an' able,
To carry then baith to fair Scotland.

As they rode ower the first Scottish moor,
He says, "O but your love was easily won,
Get ye back home. . . . . . ,
Get ye back to Northumberland.

"Hae pity on me as I had on thee,
Althoch my love was easily won,
For a cook in your kitchen I should be,
. . . .


What wye could I tak pity on thee?
Althoch your love it was easily won."
For I hae a wife and bairnies three,
To care for in auld Scotland.

A cook in your kitchen I should be,
Althoch my love it was easily won."
"My lady has no use for such as thee,
So get ye back to Northumberland.

Laith was he this young lady to kill,
Althoch her love it was easily won,
So he bought her an auld horse and hired an auld man,
And hurl'd her bak to Northumberland.

On this bonnie lassie her father did froon,
"O but your love was easily won!
Ye followed a rebel, a wretch was he,
And ye aye the fair Flooer o' Northumberland."

On this bonnie lassie her mother did smile,
"O but your love was easily won!
But ye're nase the first that the Scots hae beguiled,
An' ye're welcome bak to Northumberland."

"Ye sanna[2] want siller, an ye sanna want fee,
Althoch your love it was easily won,
An' ye sanna want gowd to buy another man wi',
And ye aye the fair Flooer o' Northumberland."

_________________________________

1. originally: Ae Scottish prisoner was makin' his moan,
"O gin I had but a lady to woo,
O gin her love it was easily won,
I would mak her a lady, and that would do."
2. sanna, also "shanna" for "shall not"

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 23 May 18 - 04:45 PM

Hi,

Here's another older version of Child 9 from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, pp. 04847-04848.

    The Fair Flooer o Northumberland- sung by John Rogie of Mains o Glen Carvie, Strahdon, Aberdeenshire, c.1871. Learned over 50 years ago from Rob Farquharson of Corgarff. Collected in 1931 by Carpenter.

1. A lady went oot to tak the air,
O that her love was sae easily won,
She heard a young gentleman sighin' sair,
As he lay in her father's prison strong.

2. "Gin some bonnie lassie wid pity me,
O that her love would be easily won,
I wid mak her a lady o high degree,
I wid mak her a lady in fair Scotland."

3. She went tae her father's bedroom,
O that her love was sae easily won,
An' she's stolen the keys o sae many fine locks,
And she's lowsed him oot o his prison sae strong.

4. She went tae her father's stable,
O that her love was sae easily won,
And she's stolen a steed baith ready an' able,
To carry them baith tee brave Scotland.

5. But when they cam yon booers within,
O that her love was sae easily won,
Get aff my steed ye brazen-faced whoor,
An' go get ye bak tae Northumberland.

6. "A cook in your kitchen I will be
O that my love was sae easily won,
. . . .
. . . .

7. "A cook in your kitchen ye canna be,
O that yer love was sae easily won,
For my mistress don't choose such hissies as thee,
Sae gae get ye bak tae Nothumberland."

8. "If ye'll tak me by the middle sae sma',
O that my love was sae easily won,
An' ye'll heave me oot ower yon high castle wall,
For I daur nae gang bak tae Nothumberland."

9. The Laddie was left his lassie to kill,
O that her love was sae easily won,
So he bocht an auld horse an' hired an auld man,
An' sent her safe bak tae Nothumberland.

* * * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 25 May 18 - 09:15 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/10/115, Cylinder 114. This version is short and complete. The second line is a refrain throughout. The original title, crossed out was the refrain, "Maid's Love Whiles is Easy Won."

The Fair Flooer o Northumberland- sung by Bell Duncan of Lambhill, Insch about 1931.

1. The Bailie's[1] dachter's gane doon the toon,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
To hear the prisoner makin' his moan;
He says, "I'm a free lord frae fair Scotland."

2. "Gin some fair maid wid borrow me,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
A son or a husband I wid be,
For I'm a free lord frae fair Scotland."

3. She's deen her till her father's ha',
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
An' stowen the keys tee the prison wa',
To lat him win free tee fair Scotland.

4. She's deen her till her mither's gowd,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
An' she's teen oot a beerly howd[2],
To carry them baith tee fair Scotland.

5. She's deen her till her father's stable,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
An' she's teen oot a guid steed an' an able,
To carry them baith tee fair Scotland.

6. Bet they hadna ridden ower monny a moss,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
Till he bade her loop aff o' her father's best horse,
An' she micht gae back tee Northumberland.

7. For, see nae ye yon castle?" said he
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
"There I hae a wife an' bairnies three,
An' I'm nae a free lord is fair Scotland."

8. "It's a cook in your kitchie I wid be,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
"Bet I canna afford sic a cook as thee,
Sae gae get ye back tee Northumberland."

9. He nae bein' willin' ti dee her nae wrong,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
He boct an ald horse, an' hired an ald man.
An' he sent her back tee Northumberland.

10. Ben cam her father, bein' sae bold,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
Says, "Ye been a Scottish heiress, scarce sixteen years old,
How dare ye come back tee Northumberland."

11. Ben cam her mither, bein' sae mild,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
She's nae the first that the Scots has beguiled."
Says, "Welcome back tee Northumberland."

12. "She sanna want gowd, she sanna want gear,
Maid's love whiles is easy won,
An' gowd an' siller will get her anither,
An' she's aye the fair Flooer o' Northumberland.
________________

1. bailiff's
2. "bridely sum," also written "bierly howd," the MS has "big lump" which is not a literal translation.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 18 - 08:24 AM

"Beerly"? Can't find it in the Scots dictionaries.

(This kind of "howd" is said to be restricted to Banffshire.)


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 26 May 18 - 11:05 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, pp. 04845-04846. Jessie Ann Weir was b. 1866, married Alexander B. Campbell-- also known as Mrs. A. B. Campbell (Mrs. Alexander Campbell). Inconsistent dialect.

The Flooer o Northumberland- sung by Mrs. Jesse Campbell of Hassie Wells, Rothienorman about 1931.

1. A rich provost's daughter's was walking alone,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
She heard a young man he was making great moan;
As he lay in the prison so strong."

2. "If some kind lady would set me free,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
I would mak her a lady o' higher degree,
If she'd loose me oot o the prison so strong."

3. She's ventured into her father's beside,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
She's stolen the keys of many fine lock,
And she's loosed him oot o the prison so strong.

4. She's ventured into her father's stable,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
She's stolen the steed which was ready and able,
To carry the man to fair Scotland.

5. When they came to yon Scotch moor,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
Ye'll get out of my presence ye brazen-faced hoar,
And go, get ye back to Northumberland.

6. Oh that's nae the promise that ye made to me,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
"Ye's to mak me as lady o higher degree,
If I's loose ye oot o prison sae strong."

7. "Have pity, have pity, Oh that canna be,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
For I hae a wife in my ain countree,
So go back to Northumberland."

8. "A cook in your kitcheen I will be,
Oh but my love it was easy won,
I'd serve your lady richt modestly,
For I canna gang back to Northumberland."

9. "A cook in my kitcheen you canna be,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
We canna afford such maids as thee,
So go, get ye back to Northumberland."

10. "Ye'll tak me by the middle sae sma',
Oh but my love it was easy won,
Ye'll throw me ower yon high castle wa',
For I canna gang back to Northumberland."

11. When he saw that her mind was so,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
He bocht her an ald horse, an' hired an ald man.
An' he's driven her back to Northumberland.

12. When she cam her father before,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
"Ye'll get out o my presence, you brazen-faced hoar,
And go get my steed back to Northumberland."

13. When she [cam] her mother before,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
You're nae the first that the Scotch have beguiled."
An' ye're aye the flooer o' Northumberland.

14. "Ye canna want gowd and ye canna want gear,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
Ye canna want fee to gain your love wi',
An' ye're aye the flooer o' Northumberland.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 26 May 18 - 11:17 PM

Hi Lighter,

I think it's supposed to be "bierly." In her last stanza "sanna" similar to "canna," also appears as "shanna," for "shall not" and gear= possessions

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 26 May 18 - 11:35 PM

Lighter,

I checked the original Bell Duncan MS (there are two copies, a neater second copy) and next to "beerly howd" is typed (big lump) for "big lump of gowd (gold)." That's crossed out in pencil. It's also written "bierly howd" in pencil on right side.

James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/10/115, Cylinder 114, 00:00
https://www.vwml.org/search?q=RN25%20Carpenter&is=1

The original title, crossed out was "Maid's Love Whiles is Easy Won,"

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 28 May 18 - 09:25 AM

Hi,

Fragment from: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/I, p. 08209, inconsistent dialect. Only two stanzas with music, the rest has been taken from his wife's version (Stanzas 3-14) which has "provost's daughter" in the first line.

The Flooer o Northumberland- sung by Alexander B. Campbell of Hassiewells, Rothienorman about 1931.

1. A rich bailie's daughter was walking her lane,
O but her love it was easy won,
She heard a young man, he was making great moan;
As he lay in the prison so strong."

2. "If any kind lady would set me free,
Oh but her love it was easy won,
I would mak her a lady o' highest degree,
If she loose me out o' the prison so strong."

[3. She's ventured into her father's bedside,
O but her love it was easy won,
She's stolen the keys o many a fine lock,
And she's lowsed him oot o the prison sae strong.

4. When they cam to yon Scottish moor,
O but her love it was easy won,
"Ye'll get oot o my presence, ye brazen-faced whore,
And go get ye back to Northumberland.

5. "O that's the promise that ye gae to me,
O but my love it was easy won,
Ye's to mak me a lady o higher deegree,
If I lowse ye oot o the prison sae strong."

6. "Hae pity, hae pity, hae pity," she cried,
"O but my love it was easy won,
Hae pity on me as I had on thee,
When I lowse ye oot o the prison sae strong."

7. "Hae pity, hae pity, O thant canna be,
O but your love it was easy won,
For I hae a wife in my ain countrie,
So go, get ye back to Northumberland."

8. "A cook in your kitchen I will be,
O but my love it was easy won,
I'd serve your lady richt modestly,
For I canna gang back to Northumberland."

9. "A cook in my kitchen ye canna be,
O but your love it was easy won,
We canna afford such maids as thee,
So go, get ye back to Northumberland."

10. "Ye'll tak me by the middle sae sma',
O but my love it was easy won,
Ye'll throw me ower yon high castle wa',
For I canna gang back to Northumberland."

11. When he saw that her mind was so,
O but your love it was easy won,
He bocht an ald horse, and hired an ald man.
And he's driven her back to Northumberland.

12. When she cam her father before,
O but your love it was easy won,
"Ye'll get oot o my presence, ye brazen-face whore,
And go get my steed back to Northumberland."

13. When she cam her mother, before,
O but your love it was easy won,
"Ye're nae the first that the Scots hae beguiled."
And ye're aye the Flooer o' Northumberland.

14. "Ye sanna want gowd, she sanna want gear,
Althoch your love it was easy won,
Ye sanna want fee to gain your love wi',
And ye're aye the Flooer o' Northumberland.]
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 May 18 - 10:18 AM

Dict of Scots Language - bierly - adj. Stalwart, well-built, powerful. Also fig. Gen.Sc.

It would be curious in association with howd, which the dictionary gives the meaning of a large amount, but in a figurative sense might work.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 28 May 18 - 10:50 AM

Thanks Mick,

Here's a single penultimate stanza with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/15, Disc Side 015, 04:28 from Mrs Jessie Davidson of Willow Cottage, Tugnet, Speybay, Morayshire Scotland, 1931. She was born 17 September, 1863 in Dufftown as Jessie Duncan.

Fair Flooer of Northumberland- sung by Mrs Jessie Davidson, Willow Cottage, Tugnet, Speybay, Morayshire in 1931.

On this bonnie lassie her mother did smile,
"O but your love it was easily won,
You are nae the first that the Scotch has beguiled.
Welcome back to Northumberland."
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 28 May 18 - 11:29 AM

Hi,

Fragment from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, p. 04844

The Fair Flooer o' Northumberland- sung by Miss Bathia Fowlie, aged 63, of Middle Muir, Methlick, Aberdeenshire. She got the ballad from her mother who sang and recited while knitting.

   He bocht an old horse an' he hired an ald man
And sent her safe back to Northumberland.

On this bonnie lassie her father did frown,
"O but your love was sae easily won!
Ye've letten awa' a traitor, a clown,
And you the fair Flooer o' Northumberland."

But on this bonnie lassie her mother did smile,
"What thoch your love was easily won,
You are nae the first that the Scots hae beguiled,
Thoch ye are the fair Flooer o' Northumberland."

"Ye winna want meat, and ye winna want fee,
Waht thoch your love was easily won,
An' ye winna want gowd to buy another man wi',
And ye'll aye be the Flooer o' Northumberland."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 28 May 18 - 11:30 AM

Richie, "sanna" is "shall not."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 28 May 18 - 11:35 AM

TY Lighter, got that and changed it. Also appears as "shanna" which is better,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 28 May 18 - 12:44 PM

Hi,

James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, pp. 04849-04850

Flower of Northumberland - sung by Annie Shirier of Kininmonth, Aberdeenshire, about 1910 collected Grieg from his article in Folk-songs of the North-East (see also: Last Leaves).

1. The provost's daughter's was walking alone,
Oh but her love was easy won,
She heard a Scotch prisoner making his moan;
She was the Flower of Northumberland."

2. "Oh, gin a may(girl) would borrow me,
Oh gin her love was easy won,
I wad mak her a lady o' high degree,
If she'd loose me oot o this prison sae strong."

3. She hae gane to her father's bedstock,
Oh but her love was easy won,
She's stolen the keys of many fine lock,
And she's loosed him oot o the prison so strong.

4. She's done to her father's stable,
Oh but her love was easy won,
And she's stolen a steed that was baith fleet and able,
Tae carry him on tee fair Scotland.

5. As they were baith riding across the Scotch moor,
Oh but her love was easy won,
Gang doon from my horse, I can have you no more,
I am now riding safe on my own Scotch muir.

6. For I hae a wife in my ain countree,
Oh but your love was easy won,
I canna dee naething wi' a miss like thee,
So you'll better gang back to Northumberland."

7. "A cook in your kitchen I will be,
Altho' my love it was easy won,
I'll wait at your table and serve your leddy,
For I canna gang back to Northumberland."

8. "It's cook in my kitchen you canna be,
Oh but your love it was easy won,
My leddy she cann hae servants like thee,
So ye'll better gang back tee Northumberland."

9. Laith[1] was he the lassie tae tine,
Alhto' her love it was easy won,
He bocht her an auld horse, an' hired an auld man.
An' he sent her safe back to Northumberland.

10. When she gaed in, her father did frown,
And said, "Oh but your love it was easy won,
"To follow a Scot, when you're scarcely eighteen,
And you were the flower o' Northumberland."

11. But when she gaed ben her mother before,
And says, "Oh but your love it was easy won,
But you're nae the first that the Scotch hae beguiled."
And you're welcome back to Northumberland.

12. "Ye sanna wint bried(bread) and ye sanna wint wine,
Altho' your love it was easy won,
And ye sanna wint siller to buy a man wi',
And you're aye the Flower o' Northumberland.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:09 PM

Carpenter Collection now searchable on line-
https://www.vwml.org/projects/carpenter-folk-online

carpenter collection


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 31 May 18 - 08:51 PM

Hi,

There are 130 entries for Child 10 in the Carpenter Collection-- most of them are duplicates (over a dozen versions). Here's a fragment of Child 10 from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/H, p. 11912. This is associated with the standard Scottish text, Child M from Aberdeenshire.

"Binorie" sung by Alex Robb of New Deer, Aberdeenshire, c. 1931

There wis twa maidens lived in a ha',
Binorie, Oh and Binorie,
And they had ae lad 'tween them twa,
And they ca'ed him hte bonny miller's laddie.

Sister, Oh sister will ye tak my hand,
Binorie, Oh and Binorie,
and we'll go and see our father's fishing boat come to land,
On the bonny mill dams o' Binorie.

The eldest stood upon a steen,
[Binorie, Oh and Binorie,]
And the youngest came and shoved her in,
[On the bonny mill dams o' Binorie.]
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 11:38 PM

Hi,

Maybe someone can help with the origin of Child 10A: In 1852 Edward Rimbault said in Notes and Queries that he had a copy of a broadside "The Miller's Melody" which was "printed for Francis Grove" dated 1656. He gave a version titled, "The Miller and the King's Daughter" which is Child A and attributed it to James Smith. E. David Gregory (Victorian Songhunters) said Rimbault got his copy from The Anthony Wood Collection in the Bodleian Collection, Oxford. Problem is: There's no record of any broadside titled "Miller's Melody" or "The Miller and the King's Daughter" or that it was in Wit Restor'd, 1658 although it is in an 1817 reprint but it may not be reprinted exactly. Where is the 1658 issue of Wit Restor'd? Why is Jamieson's text different than Rimbault's? Why is James Smith attributed as the author? Is there a 1655 or 1665 edition of Facetiae, Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation?

Just wondering?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 07:25 AM

"Musarum Deliciae: or, The Muses' Recreation," by Sir John Mennes (London: Henry Herringman), appeared in 1655 with another edition in 1656.

"Facetiae" does not appear in the title.

According to the English Short Title Catalogue, which lists no 1665 edition.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 07:49 AM

Sir John Mennes, "Wit Restor'd In severall select poems Not formerly publisht" (London: R. Pollard, N. Brooks, and T. Dring, 1658), pp. 51-54:

The Miller and the King's Daughter

By Mr. Smith.

There were two Sisters they went a playing,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe-a-
To see their fathers ships come sayling in
With a hy downe, downe, a downe-o-

And when they came unto the sea-brym,
With, &c,
The elder did push the younger in;
With, &c.

O Sister, O Sister, take me by the gowne,
With, &c,
And drawe me up upon the dry ground.
With, &c.

O Sister, O Sister, that may not bee,
With, &c.
Till salt and oatmeale grow both of a tree;
With, &c.

Somtymes she sanke, Somtymes she swam,
With, &c.
Untill she came unto the mil-dam;
With, &c.

The miller runne hastily downe the cliffe,
With &c,
And up he be took her withouten her life,
With, &c.

What did he doe with her brest bone?
With, &c.
He made him a viall to play thereupon,
With, &c.

What did he doe with her fingers so small?
With, &c.
He made him peggs to his Violl withall;
With, &c.

What did he doe with her nose-ridge?
With, &c.
Unto his Violl he made him a bridge,
With, &c.

What did he do with her Veynes so blewe?
with, &c.
He made him strings to his Viole thereto;
with, &c.

What did he doe with her eyes so bright?
with, &c.
Upon his Violl he playd at first sight;
with, &c.

What did he doe with her tongue soe rough?
with, &c.
Unto the violl it spake enough;
with, &c.

What did he doe with her two shinnes?
with, &c.
Unto the violl they danc't Moll Syms;
with, &c.

Then bespake the treble string,
with, &c.
O yonder is my father the King;
with, &c.

Then bespake the second string,
with &c.
O yonder sitts my mother the Queen:
with, &c.

And then bespake the stringes all three;
with, &c.
O yonder is my sister that drowned mee.
with, &c.

Now pay the miller for his payne,
with, &c.
And let him bee gone in the divels name.
with, &c.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 08:57 AM

It's probably off-topic as far as the Carpenter versions are concerned, but the history of this ballad interests me a lot. There's the early 'Miller and the King's Daughter' reproduced above, which looks like a burlesque, and similar though not identical burlesque versions from the 19th century under Child 10L. Aside from those, all of the variants from England that I know of are of the 'Bow Down' type, with no supernatural element.

The Appalachian variants are likewise the 'Bow Down' type, apart from a couple of rogue versions with 'Wind and Rain' or 'Jenny Flower Gentle' refrains, which are the only US versions with a magical fiddle or harp.

Then there are various Scots examples, mostly including magical instruments, ranging from the 'Bows of London' and 'Swan Swims so Bonny' refrains, to all of the 'Binnorie' / 'Edinboro' variants which Bronson seemed to think were derived from Scott's 'Minstrelsie'. 'Binnorie' is vanishingly rare in the US.

So my question is, what's the oldest example of the 'Bow Down' type? Its currency in Appalachia would suggest that it was around in Britain by the mid-18th century, but it's very different from 'The Miller and the King's Daughter'.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 09:06 AM

Smith's poem is grotesque, but I'm not sure what it might "burlesque."

Its macabre quality reminds me strongly of the German folk tales collected 150 years later by the Brothers Grimm.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 09:20 AM

Perhaps I'm misusing the word 'burlesque'.

What I'm wondering (amongst other things) is, how does Smith's poem relate to the broader tradition of the ballad?


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 09:49 AM

Hi,

TY Lighter

So do we assume that "Musarum Deliciae, Or The Muses Recreation: Conteining Severall Select Pieces of Sportive Wit" by James Smith; publisher Herringman, 1655 is the same copy? That edition is at google books- no preview.

Can you provide a link to the 1658 copy? I assume there's also a 1656 copy.

Why does Rimbault's copy have the second chorus as "With a hy downe, downe, a downe-a" instead of "downe-o"?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 10:17 AM

Brian,

Here are my notes for the two versions 1770 and 1775 from Parsons and the first stanza (I have the original MSS copies from Harvard Library):

'There was a king lived in the North Country'- Version Y; Communicated to Percy, April 7. 1770, and April 19, 1775, by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent: "taken down from the mouth of the spinning-wheel, if I may be allowed the expression." [There are two versions that Parsons gave Percy, the second from 1775 marked-- "imperfect" by Parsons? was used by Child. The second stanza given by Parsons in 1770 is missing from Child's text. An additional stanza was added at the end in 1775 which is not in Parson's original 1770 text. This stanza does not fit because the stanza before it is missing. "River's" brim (1770) has been changed to "sea-side" brim (1775).]

   * * * * *
1    There was a king lived in the North Country,
      Hey down down dery[1] down
There was a king lived in the North Country,
      And the bough it was bent to me
There was a king lived in the North Country,
And he had daughters one, two, three.
      I'll prove true to my love,
      If my love will prove true to me.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 10:21 AM

Hi,

Barry in the 1930s labeled Child versions to DD but only mentions CC and DD but fails to say what Child AA and BB were. Anyone know?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 10:26 AM

Richie, the 1655 ed. contains "severall select pieces of sportive vvdit." The 1656, "severall pieces of poetique wit."

Each title page has "By Sr J.M. and Ja: S." (I.e., Sir John Mennes and Dr. James Smith.)

1655 has 87 pp. 1656, expanded, has 101.

The poem first appears in the 1656 ed.

Complete title pages:

Musarum deliciae: or, The Muses recreation. Conteining severall select pieces of sportive vvit. / By Sr J.M. and Ja:S. , London, : Printed for Henry Herringman, and are to be sold at his shop, at the signe of the Anchor in the New Exchange, 1655.

Musarum deliciae: or, The Muses recreation. Conteining severall pieces of poetique wit. / By Sr J.M. and Ja: S. , London, : Printed by J.G. for Henry Herringman, and are to be sold at his shop, at the signe of the Anchor in the New Exchange, 1656.

Wit restor'd in several select poems not formerly publish't. London : Printed for R. Pollard, N. Brooks, and T. Dring, and are to be sold at the Old Exchange, and in Fleetstreet, 1658.


The link I have is through the indispensable "Early English Books Online," which you may be able to access through the nearest university library.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 11:01 AM

TY Lighter,

Here's the text from Popular ballads and songs, from tradition, MSS., and scarce eds.; edited by Robert Jamieson, 1806 which he says comes from the 1656 edition of "Musarum Deliciae." There are numerous small differences which may be editorial-- the question is why are there differences. Jamieson's notes and text follow:

*From "Musarum Deliciae, or the Muse's recreation, containing several pieces of Poetique Wit, the second edit, by sir J. M. and A. S. 1656." It is also found in "Wit Restored, by J.S. London, 1658 and in Dryden's Miscellanies; and is said to be by Mr Smith.

THE MILLER AND THE KING'S DAUGHTER

There were two sisters, they went a-playing,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a;
To see their father's ships sailing in,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

And when they came into the sea brim,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a,
The elder did push the younger in,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

"O sister, sister, take me by the gown,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
And draw me up on the dry ground,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a'."

"O sister, O sister, that may not be,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a,
Till salt and oatmeal grow both of a tree,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a."

Somtymes she sank, sometimes she swam,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
Untill she came unto the milldam,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a'.

The miller run hastily down the cliffe,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a,
And up he betouk her withouten life,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

What did he doe with her brest bone,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a,
He made him a violl to play thereupon,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

What did he doe with her fingers so small,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
He made him peggs to his viol withall,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

What did he doe with her nose-ridge,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
Unto his violl he made him a bridge,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a'.

What did he with her veynes so blew,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
He made him strings to his viole thereto,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

What did he doe with her eyes so bright,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
Upon his violl he play'd at first sight,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a'.

What did he doe with her tongue so rough,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a?
Unto the violl it spoke enough,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

What did he doe with her two shinnes,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a',
Unto the violl they danct Moll Syins,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.

Then bespake the treble string,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a,
"O yonder is my father the king,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a."

Then bespake the second string,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.
"O yonder sits my mother the queen,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a."

And then bespake the strings all three,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a.
"O yonder is my sister that drowned mee,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a."

"Now pay the miller for his payne,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a;
And let him begone in the devil's name,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe a."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 02:45 PM

Intriguing!
I also am interested in this ballad. There are lots of anomalies we need to look into. We perhaps need to slow down on this one rather than hurrying through, and try to come to some useful conclusions or at least list the probabilities and possibilities.

The most pressing is perhaps to ascertain if there ever was an English broadside.

If indeed the broadside existed in the Wood Collection then the Bodleian will surely have a record of it, unless the Bodl acquired the collection after the broadside went missing.

Someone needs to check the full Stationers Register to see if it was actually registered to Francis Grove. I only have the abridged Rollins book and it's not in there.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 03:43 PM

Hi Steve,

I emailed the Bodleian library and told them that E. David Gregory wrote in Victorian Songhunters that Rimbault got the "Miller's Melody" broadside from the Anthony Wood Collection. I asked them if they had the broadside under either title since there is no record of it in their catalogue online. Neither "The Miller and the King's Daughter" nor "Miller's Melody" have shown up as a broadside in any searches at Copac, Google books, or Bodelian so the broadside is not only missing but seems to never have existed. If so, why did Rimbault fabricate that evidence and "Miller's Melody" title?

Here's the article by Edward F. Rimbault in Notes and Queries 1852 p. 591 (Child has p. 316.), which is nearly the identical text posted by Lighter from Musarum Deliciae 1658 (in the Musarum Deliciæ text the second refrain ends with an "o" as "With a hy downe, downe, a downe-o.":

"THE MILLERS MELODY," AN OLD BALLAD

The original ballad of "The Miller's Melody" is the production of no less a person than a "Doctor in Divinity," of whom the following are a few brief particulars.

James Smith was born about 1604, educated at Christ Church and Lincoln Colleges, in Oxford; afterwards naval and military chaplain to the Earl of Holland, and domestic chaplain to Thomas Earl of Cleveland. On the Restoration of Charles II. beheld several Church preferments, nnd ultimately became canon and "chauntor" in Exeter Cathedral. Ha was created D.D. in 1661, and quitted this life in 1667. Wood informs us he was much in esteem "with the poetical wits of that time, particularly with Philip Massinger, who call'd him his son."

I have an old "broadside" copy of the ballad in question, "Printed for Francis Grove, 1656," which is here transcribed, verbatim et literatim, for the especial benefit of your numerous readers. It may also be found in a rare poetical volume, entitled Wit Restored, 1658, and in Dryden's Miscellany Poems (second edition, which differs materially from the first).

The Miller And The King's Daughter         
By Mr. Smith

"There were two sisters they went playing,
With a hie downe, downe, a downe-a,
To see their father's ships come sayling in.
With a hy downe, downe, a downe-a.

"And when they came unto the sea-brym,
With, &c.
The elder did push the younger in;
With, &c.

"O sister, O sister, take me by the gowne,
With, &c.
And drawe me up upon the dry ground,
With, &c.

"O sister, O sister, that may not bee,
With, &c.
Till salt and oatmeale grow both of a tree,
With, &c.

"Sometymes she sanke, sometymes she swam,
With, &c.
Until she came unto the mill-dam;
With, &c.

"The miller runne hastily downe the cliffe,
With, &c.
And up he betook her withouten her life,
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her brest bone?
With, &c.
He made him a violl to play thereupon,
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her fingers so small?
With, &c.
He made him peggs to his violl withall;
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her nose-ridge?
With, &c.
Unto his violl he made him a bridge,
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her veynes so blew?
With, &e.
He made him strings to his violl thereto;
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her eyes so bright?
With, &c.
Upon his violl he played at first sight;
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her tongue so rough?
With, &c.
Unto the violl it spake enough;
With, &c.

"What did he doe with her two shinnes?
With, &c.
Unto the violl they danc'd Mall Syms;   
With, &c.

"Then bespake the treble string,
With, &c.
O yonder is my father the king;
With, &c.

"Then bespake the second string,
With, &c.
O yonder sitts my mother the queen;
With, &c.

"And then bespake the strings all three;
With, &c.
O yonder is my sister that drowned mee.
With, &c.

"Now pay the miller for his payne,
With, &c.
And let him bee gone in the divel's name.
With, &c."

As this old ditty turns upon the making "a viol," it may be as well to add that this instrument was the precursor of the violin: but while the viol was the instrument of the higher classes of society, the "fiddle" served only for the amusement of the lower. The viol was entirely out of use at the beginning of the last century.

Moll (or Mall) Symms (mentioned in the thirteenth stanza) was a celebrated dance tune of the sixteenth century. The musical notes may be found in Queen Elizabeth's Virginal Bonk, in the Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge; and in the curious Dutch collection, Neder Lanttche Oedenck clank, Uberlem, 1626.

Edward F. Rimbault.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 04:12 PM

I've searched the cyber version of "A transcript of the registers of the Worshipful Company of Stationers, from 1640-1708, A.D." without success.

Francis Grove is mentioned on 10 Jan. 1648/49 and on 11 Oct. 1653 only.

Neither case bears any obvious relevance to this discussion.

As a matter of interest, Mennes's "Musarum Delitiae [sic]" is entered at 1 June 1655.

I find no mention in the 1640-1708 Registers of any publication called "The Miller and the King's Daughter" or "The Miller's Melody," or any at all with "Miller" or "King's Daughter" in the title.

The same holds for the Registers of 1554-1640.

Presumably James Smith is credited as the author because he wrote or rewrote the piece as it appeared in 1658.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 05:06 PM

That's odd, Jon! Rollins gives the following entries for the earlier period.
Miller and King (1625)
The Miller and the Kinge (1625, probably same piece)
A Miller I am (1564)
The Miller's Daughter of Mannchester (1581).

It's well worth reading Child's headnotes to throw some light on origins. Generally Scandinavian versions are fairly recent and from oral tradition (Norse, Danish, Swedish) but he refers to one Icelandic version of the 17th century. That still leaves the very real possibility of an English origin and Smith as the author. I fully believe 17thc broadside ballads like Cruel Mother, Demon Lover, Lord Thomas & Fair Eleanor are the originals, so why not this one?

Rimbault may well have had a broadside of the same date 1656 printed by Grove in his possession. These items are extremely valuable and I'm certain there are still many out there in private collections . Where does it state that the broadside was from the Antony Wood Collection. Apart from anything else Wood may have sold/swapped his copy before it came to the Bodl. I cannot conceive that a highly esteemed antiquarian would lie about such a thing. Why not just say he got his copy from one of the other contemporary sources?


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 05:20 PM

A confusing aspect of 17thc pieces is those items that appeared in anthologies were often claimed by others to have been written by the compilers, as is often the case with D'Urfey's Pills. It may well be that Smith was simply one of the compilers. Child opines that the ballad may already have existed and that Smith might have added the 3 'burlesque' stanzas. Whilst this is possible it is still only conjecture.

BTW I have Grove's dates as 1620-1655. It might be possible to find out when he died, but often when a printer died his family carried on the press using the established name.

Going back to the origin question, where Scandinavian versions occur the vast majority have usually been translated into English in the 18th and 19th centuries, but it is quite likely that a few went in the opposite direction. In fact I'm pretty certain those few Danish versions of The Cruel Mother derive directly from Grundtvig's 1840 translation from Engelske into Danske.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 05:57 PM

Odd indeed, Steve! An artifact of HathiTrust Digital Library?

A search specifically for "[The] Miller and King" hits 16 Dec. 1624.

For "The Miller and the Kinge," "ultimo" (last day) June 1625.

For "The Miller's Daughter of Mannchester " 2 March 1581.

For "A Miller I Am" . . . Nothing!


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 06:08 PM

Just checked again under Rimbault's titles.

Still nothing.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 06:25 PM

Lighter,

The macabre folk tales similar to Child 10 are explored in Mackensen's "The Singing Bone," see also Thompson. Child 10 has been adapted in 1890 as an English fairy tale "Binnorie" by Joseph Jacob: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/binnorie--joseph-jacob--english-fairy-tales-1890.aspx

The Scandinavian variants are not analogues but derivative variants see " 'The Twa Sisters,' Going Which Way?" by Harbison Parker, 1951 who says, "Knut Liestol concludes concerning this perplexing ambiguity, in his study of 'Dei tvo systar,' that the likeliest explanation of this is, that the ballad first was composed in England or Scotland, there split itself into two versions, and both of these then came to Scandinavia by different paths, one to Norway (Iceland, the Faeroe Islands) and the other to Denmark." Phillips Barry, 1931, however says, "The diffusion of the ballad from Scandinavia to Britain has been rightly and generally accepted." I suppose Parker's study is a rebuttal to both of Barry's articles.

Barry was critical of Archer Taylor's 1929 study which separated the ballads into two forms: the English and Scottish forms.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 06:39 PM

Hi Steve,

Here's the quote and info about the broadside from Gregory who says that Harland also had been given a copy of the broadside by Rimbault:

https://books.google.com/books?id=qIycePVvVa4C&pg=PA238&dq=Victorian+Songhunters+Rimbault+Miller+and+the+King%27s+daughter&hl=en

Lighter, since there were two authors of Musarum Deliciæ, Mennes and Smith, anything submitted by Smith would have his name. He is not likely the author but he submitted the ballad.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 07:14 PM

Hi,

Here's Child's query from a Dec. 1800, Notes and Queries issue:

“The Miller And The King's Daughter.”— Jamieson, in his Popular Ballads and Songs, 1806, i. 315, prints: 1. copy of “The Miller and the King's Daughter,” as from the second edition of Musarum Deliciae, 1656. This copy presents two or three slight variations from Dr. Rimbault’s broadside of the same date, which is printed in "N&Q.,” 1st S. v. 591, and also from the copy in the 1817 reprint of Wit Restored (1658). The reprint of Musarum Deliciae: in the latter volume has not the ballad of “The Miller and the King’s Daughter,” and yet it was made with care by a person who had both the edition of 1655 and that of 1656 in his hands, which differ not in the least as to contents, according to that editor. Is there, nevertheless, a copy of Musarum Deliciae, 1656, which contains the ballad in question?

F. J. C.

Cambridge, Mass.


* * * *

This says the 1658 edition version (given by Lighter) was reprinted in 1817. Child was trying to verify the ballad in the earlier editions. He suggests that according to the editor the ballad submitted by Smith was printed in 1655 in the first edition (since it differed not in content),

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 07:32 PM

Hi,

I'm not sure where Gregory (Victorian Songhunters) got his information, since the part about Harland seems to be incorrect. When Harland printed three versions (one was Rimbault's), he never mentioned that he saw or had a copy of the broadside of Rimbault's, he only provided a 1656 date (same as Musarum Deliciae second edition):

Here are Harland's notes from "Ballads and Songs of Lancashire Chiefly Older Than the 19th Century" as edited by John Harland, 1865:

Again, Dr. Rimbault gives another version of the ballad, evidently earlier than that last cited, and which he states to be the production of a James Smith, D.D. (Oxford), born 1604, and died 1667 ; respecting whom Wood says “he was much in esteem with the poetical wits of the time, particularly with Philip Massinger, who called him his son.” We append this ballad (as printed from an old broadside copy of 1656), omitting the burden after the first verse:
* * * *

The text is the same as given by Rimbault in Notes and Queries.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 08:24 PM

Not sure why Smith cannot be the author, since there are no earlier ballad versions known and the book clearly says "By Mr. Smith."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 12:50 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/B, p. 11501. This version resembles Walter Scott's version, Child C.

"Bilnorie," sung by Peter Christie (b. 1870) of 21 Shore Road, Stonehaven, Kincardineshire about 1931.

1    There twa sisters lived in a booer,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
There was a knicht to be their wooer,
      By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

2    He courted the eldest wi' glove an' ring,
       Bilnorie O Bilnorie
But the youngest he loved abeen a' thing,
      By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

3   The eldest's heart was vexed saer,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
An' she envied her sister dear
       By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

4 The eldest said to the youngest een,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
Will ye gang an' see oor father's ships coming in,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O?

5. She's ta'en her sister by the hand,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And led her by the river strand,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

6. Her sister stood upon a steen,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And the eldest cam and shoved her in,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

6. O sister, sister, reach your hand,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And ye shall be heir o' all your land,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

7. "O sister, I'll not reach my hand,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And I shall be heir o' all your land,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

8. O sister, sister, reach your glove,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And Sweet William shall be your love,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

9. O sister, I'll not reach my glove,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And Sweet William shall better be my love,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

10   Sometimes she sank, sometimes she swam,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
Until she cam to the millet's dam,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

11. The millet's dochter was bakin breid,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And gaed for water as she need,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

11. "O father father, draw your dam,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
There's a mermaid or a milk-white swan,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O."

12. Her father hastened and drew the dam,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
And there he found a drowned woman,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

13. He couldna see her yellow hair,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
For gowd and pearls hung to her ear,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

14. He couldna see her lily feet,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
Her golden girdle hung so deep,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

15. "Sair will they be, whae'er they be,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
The heart that lives to weep for thee,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O."

16. When by there cam a harper fine,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
He harped the nobles when they dine,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

17. He made a harp o her breistbone,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
Wha's tune would melt the heart o steen,
By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 12:58 PM

Hi Lighter,

Smith could be the author, but considering the range and scope of the ballad it's more likely his arrangement or perhaps something he copied from print-- as it is the same text given by Rimbault from the mystery broadside (if the broadside is after 1655 Smith could be the source). Anything he submitted whether he wrote it or not would have his name attached. So yes, it's possible he wrote it, I just don't think so. Child says:

Both of these name "Mr. Smith" as the author; that is, Dr. James Smith, a well-known writer of humorous verses, to whom the larger part of the pieces in Wit Restor'd has been attributed. If the ballad were ever in Smith's hands, he might possibly have inserted the three burlesque stanzas, 11-13; but similar verses are found in another copy (L a), and might easily be extemporized by any singer of sufficiently bad taste.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 04:24 PM

Since the Rimbault broadside - if it exists - gives the same text, Smith could just as easily be the author, no matter when the sheet was published. The broadside might have been reprinted from the book, with or without Smith's name on it.

That seems most likely to me, but there is simply no way to know.

If the broadside was reprinted from the book (already accounted for in 1656), would the Stationers Register be expected to have an entry for it?


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 05:57 PM

Unfortunately not all broadsides were registered for some reason. I don't know if registration would be required if the ballad had already been published.

It would be worth checking through 'Wit Restor'd' to see if any of the other pieces were of anything like this style. The couplet with refrains doesn't appear to be that common even at this early stage. Off hand the only other one I can think of is 'Duke's Daughter's Cruelty (Cruel Mother). Robin Hood ballads of course.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 07:41 PM

Hi,

A different ending with a varied 2nd refrain from James Madison Carpenter Collection (JMC/1/8/1/A, p. 11483) associated with the standard Scottish text of Child M also taken from Aberdeenshire.

"Binorie,"sung by William Walker (b. 1870) of Bonnykelly, New Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire; learned about 1900 from Alex McDonald.

1    Twa Scottish[1] sisters lived in a booer,
      Binorie O Binorie
The miller's bonnie laddie a-courtin' then came,
      By the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

2    He's courted the eldest wi' diamonds an' rings,
       Binorie O Binorie
He's courted the youngest wi' far better things,
      She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.

3   He's courted the eldest in her father's ha',
      Binorie, O Binorie
He's courted the youngest amon' the sheets sae sma',
       By the bonnie milldams o Bilnorie O.

4 "O sister, O sister, gin ye'll tak a walk,
       Binorie, O Binorie
Ye'll hear the bonnie blackbirds a whistlin' ower their tunes,
An' ye'll see the bonnie miller o Binorie."

5. "O sister, O sister, I will tak a walk,
       Binorie, O Binorie
I will hear the bonnie blackbirds a whistlin' ower their tunes,
But I'll nae see the bonnie miller o Binorie."

5. They've walked up, and they've walked doon,
       Binorie, O Binorie
They've walked doon by yon bonnie plantain side,
An' doon to the dams o Binorie.

6. They've walked up, an' they've walked doon,
       Binorie, O Binorie
Until the eldest did ding the youngest in,
Tee the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

7. "O sister, O sister, if you'll tak my hand,
      Binorie O Binorie
Ye'll get a part o my gowd an' a part o my land,
And ye'll get the bonnie miller o Binorie.

8. "It wanna for your gowd that I dang you in,
      Binorie O Binorie
Because ye are sae fair an' I'm sae very din,
You can droon in the dams o Binorie."

9   She floated up, an' she floated doon,
      Binorie O Binorie
She sank tae the bottom ne'er to rise again,
She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.

10. The miller's servant girlie went oot tae the dam,
      Binorie O Binorie
Twas for some water to wash the miller's hands,
Frae the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

11. "O miller, miller, there's fishes in your dam,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Or there is a young lady or else your white swan,
Swimmin' up an' doon the dams o Binorie."

12. They fished up, an' they fished doon,
      Bilnorie O Bilnorie
Until they got her on a stane,
She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.

13. He didna ken her by her gowden yellow hair,
      Binorie O Binorie
But weel did he ken her by the gowden rings he gae her,
She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.

14. Mony's the ane was at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, O Binorie
An' the bonnie miller laddie died at her grave makin'
She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.

___________________________________

1. In the music MS: "Twa courted sisters. . ."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 08:31 PM

Hi,

Here's an older fragment similar to Walker's version and Child M from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08721. Stanza 6 is two stanzas combines (5 lines). I've added some text in brackets to make the end more complete.

"Binorie," sung by Mrs. Mary Thain of Castle St., Banff, learned before 1870 from Kate McClennan.

1    He courted the one with a gay gowd ring,
       Binorie and Benorie
He courted the youngest witha far better thing,
      She's the bonnie millert's lass o Binorie.

2. O sister, O sister, it's we'll tak a walk,
       Binorie and Benorie,
And we'll hear the blackbirds a whistlin ower the tunes,
Bet we winna see the bonnie millert frae Binorie.

3. They've walked up by bonnie plantain side,
       Binorie and Benorie
The eldest dang the youngest into the dam,
An' doon to the dams o Binorie.

4. O sister, O sister, it's ye'll take my hand,
      Binorie and Benorie
Ye'll have half-pairt o my gowd an' the third-pairt o my land,
And ye'll be the millert's lass o Binorie.

5. "It wisna for that that I dang you in,
      Binorie and Benorie
Because ye wis sae fair an' I sae dun,
An' ye'll droon in the dams o Binorie.

6. The millert's servant lass gaed oot tae the dam,
      Binorie and Benorie
It wis for some water to wash the millert's hand;
"Ye'll get a swan or a white woman
Drowned in the dams o Binorie."

7. They fished up, an' they fished doon,
      Binorie and Benorie
[Until they got her on a stane,
She's his ain bonnie lassie frae Binorie.]

8. [Mony's the ane was at her oot-takin',
Binorie and Benorie]
The miller lad died at her grave makin'
She's his ain bonnie lassie o Binorie.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 04 Jun 18 - 10:32 AM

Hi,

Here's Bell Duncan's version from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/285, Disc Side 279, 04:21. Bell uses "mullert" for miller; stanza 4 is nonconforming. Her version is similar to William Walker's.

"Binorie," sung by Miss Bell Duncan of Lambhill, Insch, Aberdeenshire about 1931, probably dating back to early to mid-1800s.

1    There wis twa sisters lived in a booer,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie,
An' the youngest was the fairest flooer,
    She's the bonnie mullert's lass o Binorie.

2    He courted the eldest wi' ribbons an' rings,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie,
But he courted the youngest wi far better things,
    She's the bonnie mullert's lass o Binorie.

3    "O dear sister, we may tak a walk,
       Binorie, aye O Binorie,
An' hear a' the blackbirds whistle ower their notes,
   An' we'll see the mullert's lad o Binorie."

4 They walked up, an' sae hae they doon,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie,
By the bonnie milldams o Binorie.
Until the eldest ane dang the youngest in,
   Tee the deepest milldam o Binorie.

5. O sister, dear sister, reach me yer hand,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie
"I'll gie ye half my siller, an' a third pairt o' my lan',
    And the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie.

6. "It wisna for that that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie
Bet ye're sae very fair an' I sae very din,
   Ye may droon in the dam o Binorie."

7. The mullert's servant lass she's gane oot tae the dam,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie
It wis for water ti wash the mullert's hands,
    The bonnie mullert laddie o Binorie.

8. "O dear maister, there's fish in yer dam,
      Binorie, aye O Binorie,
Or there's a droont lady or else a fite (white) swan,
    In the deepest milldam o Binorie."

9. He his dammed his burns a roon,
      Binorie aye O Binorie
An' they've taen her oot an' laid her on a stane,
   By the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

10. There wis nae ane kent her by her yellow hair,
      Binorie aye O Binorie
But the mullert laddie kent her by the ring that he gae her,
She wis his ain dearest lassie o Binorie.

11. Mony a ane wis at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, aye O Binorie
Bet the bonnie mullert laddie dee't at her green grave makin';
   He's the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 04 Jun 18 - 12:47 PM

Hi,

This version is mysteriously missing the ending-- from the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/198, Disc Side 192, 01:41

"Binorie," sung by David Edwards of 84 High st. Cuninestown, Aberdeenshire. Learned in th Cornhill district about 1880.

1    There wis twa bonnie sisters lived in a glen,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
The miller laddie cam a courtin' them,
    The bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

2    He courted the eldest wi' a gay gowd ring,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
But he courted the youngest wi a far better thing,
    The bonnie miller's lass o Binorie, O.

3    "O sister, O sister, come an' tak a walk,
       Binorie, aye O Binorie,
You'll maybe hear the blackbirds whistle ower his tune,
   Or see the bonnie miller's laddie o Binorie."

4 They walked up and they walked down,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
Till the elder dang the younger into the dam,
   The deep milldam o Binorie.

5. O sister, dear sister, come lend me your hand,
      Binorie, O Binorie
"I'll gie you my yellow gowd, likewise my land,
    And the bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

6. "It wisna for your yellow gowd that I dang ye in,
      Binorie O Binorie
But ye are sae fair and I am sae very din,
   You're the bonnie miller's lass o Binorie."

7. She swimmed up, and she swimmed down,
    Binorie O Binorie,
She sank to the bottom like a stone,
    In the deep milldam o Binorie.

8. The miller's servant girl, she's came out to the dam,
      Binorie, O Binorie
It was for some water to wash the miller's hand,
The bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

9. "O miller, dear miller, there's fish in your dam,
      Binorie, O Binorie
For the white swan he swims rarely up an' down
    In the deep milldam o Binorie."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 12:12 AM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08715; see also Grieg's newspaper article c. 1910; School of Scottish studies (1952), listen; http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/2937;jsessionid=C2F2CF585A7DF68179A59B4052740214

Curiously there's a different single stanza fragment sung by Mathieson which begins:

There were three sisters lived in a toon,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
The one was she was dark and the other she was brown,
The bonnie millert's lass o Biniorie, O.

This sentiment is reminiscent of the "brown girl" ballads (Child 73 and 295) except the line should be "The one she was fair and the other she was brown." Curiously, this is the motive for murder in most Scottish Child 10 versions (see below). Less dialect was used by Grieg in the same version published in Greig's newspaper column about 1910. The 1931 recording by Carpenter is harder to hear than the 1952 Scottish Studies recording although Mathieson was 20 years younger.

"Binorie" sung by Willie Mathieson b. 1879 of Ellon, Aberdeenshire before 1910 as learned from his second wife's grandfather Sandy Ross.

1    Two sister lassies lived in a toon,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
An' a bonnie miller lad came a courtin' them,
   The bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O.

2    He courted the eldest wi' ribbons an' wi' rings,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
But he courted the youngest wi' far better things,
       The bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O.

3    "O sister, O sister we'll go tae the broom,
       Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
We will hear a' the blackbirds whistle ower their tune,
   An' we'll maybe see the bonnie miller laddie, O."

4 They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
They heard a' the blackbirds whistle ower their tune,
   But they didna see the bonnie miller laddie, O."

5. "O sister, O sister we will go tae the milldam,
       Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
We will see a' the ducks an' the swan she will swim,
An' we'll maybe see the bonnie miller laddie, O."

6. They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
They saw a' the ducks an' the swan she did swim,
But they didna see the bonnie miller laddie, O."

7. They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
The eldest dang the youngest into the dam,
   Intae the dam o Binorie, O.

8. "O sister, O sister lend me your hand,
       Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
An' I'll mak you heir ower a' I command,
An' heir ower the bonnie miller laddie, O."

9. "It wisna for your money that I dang you in,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
It's because you're sae fair an' I'm sae very din,
   So you can droon in the dam o Binorie, O."

10. The miller's servant lassie came oot tae the dam,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
It wis for some water ti wash the miller's hands,
    The bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O.

11. "O miller, O miller, there's fish in your dam,
      Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O,
It's either a drooned lady or else a silken swan,
    That lies in the dam o Binorie, O."

12. He didna ken her by the rings that he has gi'en her,
      Binorie aye an' Binorie, O,
But weel did he ken her by her bonnie gowden hair
As she lay in teh dams o Binorie, O.

13. Mony was the ane at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, aye an' Binorie, O
And the bonnie miller lad died at her grave makin';
   The bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 02:00 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, p. 07734, standard text except the miller doesn't die at the burial. The word "claes" (1st line, last stanza) should mean "cloth" or "garment." The line usually means: Many were there when she was taken out of the dam,

"Binorie" sung by Mrs. James Pirie of Kirkside, Alvah, Banff, Scotland about 1931.

1    There was twa bonnie lassies lived in a booer,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
There was a young man came a courtin' them,
   He was the bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

2    He's courted the eldest wi' mony a braw thing,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
But he courted the youngest wi' a far better thing,
      She was the bonnie miller's lassie o Binorie.

3    "O sister, O sister if you'd tak a walk,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie,
You'd hear all the blackbirds whistle ower their tune,
   An' you'd see the bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O."

4   They walked up, an' so did they doon,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
They heard all the blackbirds whistle ower their tune,
   But they never saw the bonnie miller lad, o Binorie, O."

5.   They walked up, an' so did they doon,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
And the eldest pushed the youngest into the dam,
Into the dam o Binorie, O."

6.   "O sister, O sister if you'll tak my hand,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie,
An' I'll gie you my horses and all my free land,
To pull me oot of the dam o Binorie."

7.   "It wasna for your gold that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
It's because ye are so white love, an' I am so din,
    You're the bonnie miller's lassie o Binorie."

8.   She swimmed up, an' so did she doon,
   Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till she sank to the bottom never to rise again,
The bottom o the dams o Binorie.

9.   The miller's servant lassie came up to the dam,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Twas for water to wash bonnie miller's hand,
    The bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

10.   "O miller, O miller, there's fish into your dam,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
There is a drooned lady or a milk-white swan,
    Sailing up and doon the dams o Binorie."

11.   The miller didna ken her by her bonnie goons o silk,
      Binorie O an' Binorie,
But he did ken her by her middle sae gimp
She was the bonnie miller's lassie o Binorie.

12.   Many were there at her claes aff-takin',
   Binorie, O an' Binorie,
But few, few were there at her green grave makin';
   Except the bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 03:01 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08709. Has "millert" except for the first.

"Binorie," sung by Mrs. William Duncan of Tories, Oyne, Scotland about 1931.

1    Twa Scottish girlies lived in a booer,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
A miller laddie a courtin' them cam,
   By the bonnie milldam o Binorie, O.

2    He courted the elder wi' jewels an' rings,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
He's courted the younger wi' a far better things,
    His ain dearest lassie o Binorie, O.

3    "O sister, O sister will ye tak a walk?
       Binorie, O Binorie,
We'll hear a' the blackbirds whistle ower their tune,
   An' see the bonnie miller lad o Binorie, O."

4 They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
Until the elder one dang the younger in,
To droon in the dam o Binorie, O."

5. "O sister, O sister ye'll reach ti me your han',
       Binorie, O Binorie,
Ye'll get pairt o my siller an' third pairt o my lan',
An' be the millert's lassie o Binorie, O."

6. "It wasna for that that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
That you're sae very fair, an' I sae very dun,
   So ye'll droon in the dam o Binorie, O."

7. She swimmed up, an' she swimmed on,
   Binorie, O Binorie,
An' she sank tee the bottom nae mair tee rise again,
Frae the bonnie milldam o Binorie, O.

8. The miller's servant girl came for water to wash his hands,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
There's somebody in, or else there's a swan,
    In the bonnie milldam o Binorie, O.

9. They fished up an' they fished doon,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
They've taen her oot an' laid her on a stane,
    By the bonnie milldam o Binorie, O."

10. There wasna ane ken her by her yellow hair,
      Binorie O Binorie,
But the bonnie miller he knew the rings he gae her,
She wis his ane dearest lassie o Binorie, O.

13. There wis mony there at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, O Binorie,
The bonnie millert laddie died at her grave makin';
She wis his ane dearest lassie o Binorie, O.
* * * *

Richie


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