Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 04:23 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, p. 07736, standard text, a few stanzas missing.

"Binorie" sung by Mrs Jane Lobban of Kennethmont, Aberdeenshire, Scotland about 1931.

1    There wis twa sisters wha lived in a glen,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
The youngest was courted by a nice young man,
   The bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

2    This twa sisters gaed oot for a walk
       Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Twas to hear the blackbirds whistle ower the tune,
   An' see the miller lad o Binorie.

3 They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Bet they didna hear the birdies whistle ower the tune,
   An' they didna see the miller o Binorie.

4. Then the twa sisters stood on a stane,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till the elder she dang the younger in,
Tee teh deep, deep dams o Binorie."

5. "O sister, O sister you'll stretch me yer han',
       Binorie, O Binorie,
An' all my gold and silver will be at your command,
An' the bonnie miller lad o Binorie."

6. "It wisna for yer gold sister, I dang ye in,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
It's because ye're sae very fair, an' I'm sae very din,
   An' ye're courted by the miller o Binorie."

7. The miller's servant lassie cam oot tee the dam,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
It was for some water to wash the miller's hand,
    Twas the bonnie miller lad o Binorie.

8. "O miller, O miller, go fish in your dam,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
For there's a drooned lady or else a white swan,
    In the deep, deep dams o Binorie."

9. Weel did he ken her by her green goon o silk,
      Binorie O an' Binorie,
Bet better did he ken her by her middle, 'twas sae jimp,
Twas the bonnie miller's lass o Binorie.

10. Mony wis there at her aff-claes takin',
   Binorie, O an' Binorie,
But the miller laddie died at her green grave weepin';
    The bonnie miller lad o Binorie.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 08:49 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, p. 07736. Inconsistent dialect. This is not a version from the Greig-Duncan Collection which has 17 versions A-Q.

"Binorie" from Duncan's MSS sung by Mary McWilliam, Grange, 1905, taken down by Jeanie McDonald of Alford.

1    There lived two sisters in yonder ha',
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
They hid bet a lad atween then twa,
   He's the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie.

2    It fell aince upon a day
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
That the auldest ane to the youngest did say,
   At the bonnie milldam o Binorie:

3.   "Oh sister, oh sister will ye gang to the brooms,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till they thrice heard the black birdie changing its tune,
   An' see the mullert lad o Binorie?

4.   They hadna been half an hour at the brooms,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till they thrice heard the black birdie changin its tune,
At the boonie mulldams o Binorie?

5.   They hadna been an hour at the dams,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till they saw their father's fish boats on dry land,
   But they saw nae the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie.

6.   The youngest one stood on a stane,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
The auldest ane dang the youngest in,
To the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

7.   She swam up, an' she swam down,
    Binorie, O an' Binorie,
Till she swam back to her sister again,
In the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

8.   "Oh sister, Oh sister, will ye reach me yer glove,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie,
An' I'll make ye heir o my truelove,
The bonnie mullert lad o Binorie."

9.   "It wisna for that that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
It's because ye are fair, an' I am din,
   An' ye'll droon in the dams o Binorie."

10.   Oot cam the auld mullert's daughter to the dams,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
For water to wash her father's hands,
Frae the bonnie mulldams o Binorie.

11.  "Oh father, Oh father, go a-fishing in your dams,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
For there's either a mermaid or a milk-white swan,
    In the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

12.  They socht up, an' they socht down,
    Binorie, O an' Binorie,
But they got naething but a droon'd woman,
    In the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

13.  Some o them kent her by her skin so fair,
      Binorie O an' Binorie,
Bet weel kent the mullert by her bonnie yellow hair,
She's the mullert's bonnie lass o Binorie.

14.  Some o them kent her by her goon o silk,
      Binorie O an' Binorie,
Bet the mullert laddie ken her by her middle so jimp,
'Twas his ane bonnie lass o Binorie.

15.  Mony a ane was at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, O an' Binorie,
An' mony ane muir at her grave makin';
    At the bonnie mulldams o Binorie.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 11:19 PM

Hi,

From the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/M, pp. 05893-05895. This text is very similar to Scott's version, Child C, (Walter Scott, Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, 1803) most of which Scott took from a traditional singer, Miss Charlotte Brookes. The ending which Scott took from Mrs. Brown's version (Child B) is different which shows that the whole was not copied directly from Scott's published version. The similarities are obvious and a recording was not made-- indicating the text was sent in. The last refrain (line 4) does not vary as nearly all the other traditional versions in the Carpenter Collection.

"Binorie" from Mrs Watson Gray, Corner House, East Street, Fochabers, Scotland, 1931. Partly from her sister, Helen Mackaye.

1    There were two sisters sat in a bower,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
There cam a knicht to be their wooer,
      By the bonny milldams o Binorie.

2    He courted the eldest with glove and ring,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
But he lo'ed the youngest abeen a' thing,
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie.

3   The eldest she was vexed sair,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' much envoyed (envied) her sister fair,
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie.

4    The auldest said tee the youngest ane,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
"Will ye see wir father's ships comin' in?"
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie.

5    She's taen her by the lily hand,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' led her doon tee the river strand.
      By the bonny mill-dams of Binorie

6    The youngest stood upon a stane,
      Binorie, O Binorie
The auldest cam an' dang her in,
      By the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

7    "O sister, O sister, reach yer hand,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' ye shall be heir o half my land,
      By the bonnie mill-dams of Binorie."

8    "O sister, I'll not reach my hand,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' I'll be heir o a' yer land.
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

9    "Shame fa' the hand that I should take,
      Binorie, O Binorie
It's twined me an' my world's make,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie."

10   "O sister, sister, reach me your glove,
      Binorie, O Binorie
And sweet William s'all be your love,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie."

11   "Sink on, nor hope for hand or glove,
      Binnorie, O Binnorie
And sweet William s'all better be my love,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

12   "Yer cherry cheeks an' yellow hair
      Binorie, O Binorie
Has garred me gang maiden evermair,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie."

13    Sometimes she sunk, and sometimes she swam,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Until she came tae the miller's dam.
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie."

14    "O father, father, draw your dam!
      Binorie, O Binorie
There's either a mermaid or a milk-white swan,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie."

15    The miller hasted an' drew his dam,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' there he found a droon't woman.
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

16.    Upon her fingers lily white,
      Binorie, O Binorie
The jewel ringd were shining bright,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

17    You couldna see her yellow hair,
      Binorie, O Binorie
For gowd an' pearls a' sae rare.
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie.

18    You couldna see her middle sma,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Her gowden girdle was sae braw,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

19    You couldna see her lily feet,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Her gowden fringes were sae deep,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

20 It was there cam a harper fine,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Wha harped the nobles when they dine,
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie

21    An' when he looked that lady on,
      Binorie, O Binorie
He sighed and made a heavy moan,
      By the bonny milldams of Binorie.

22    He's made a harp of her breistbane,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
Whase soons wad melt a hairt o stane,
      By the bonnie milldams o Binorie.

23    He's ta'en three locks o her yellow hair,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' wi' them strung his harp sae rare.
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie

24    He went intae her father's hall,
      Binorie, O Binorie
An' he played his harp before them a',
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

25 At first the harp played lood an' clear,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Fareweel, my father an' mither dear,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

26   Neist when the harp began to sing,
      Binorie, O Binorie
Twas fareweel William, said the string,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

27   An' syne as plain as plain could be,
      Binorie, O Binorie
There sits my sister wha droon't me,
      By the bonnie milldams of Binorie.

* * * *

Comments?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 12:49 PM

Hi,

From the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, pp. 07726-07727. This is a third different type of ballad from the Collection. This refrain was reportedly heard by Cunningham in the early 1800s. The opening stanza is similar to the 2nd version known by Willie Mathieson (see post above) in which skin color is immediately established as the murder motive. The playing of the song, "The Swan Swims Bonnie, O" from the harps reveals that the drowned sister was killed by her remaining sister who is then burned.

Twa Sisters- sung by Mrs Mary Stewart Robertson , 6 Auchreddie Road, New Deer, Scotland, 1932, learned from her mother, never saw in print.

1. There wis twa sisters lived in yon glen,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
Een o them wis fair, an' the other wis din,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

2. "Sister dear sister, come an' tak a walk,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"An' ye'll see winders afore ye come bak,"
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

3. "Pit your fit (feet) on yonder marble stone,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' sae slyly she dung her in,
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

4. "Sister O siter, lend me yer richt hand,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"An' I'll mak ye lady o a' my land,
An' I'll stand ahin the door when the lord comes in,"
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

5. "Sister dear sister lend me yer hand,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"I didn't come here to lend you my hand,
It's because you are fair, an' I am din,"
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

6. Noo the millert had a dochter an' her bein' a maid,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' she went oot for water to bake some breid,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

7. "O father there swims in yer dam,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"Either a maid or a milk-white swan,"
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

8. The millert he gaed oot an' lat off his dam
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' they laid her on a thorn for to dry,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

9. The king's best harper he'd been passin' by,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
He's cut off her fingers sae sma',
For to mak pins for evermair,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

10. The king's second best harper he'd been passin' by,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' he's ta'en three tits o her bonnie gowd hair,
For to mak strin gs for his harp evermair
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

11. The third best harper he wis passin' by,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' he's cut oot her breistbane an' a harp he his made,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

12. An' the three went up tee the king's hall door,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' they played an' they played an' they far better played,
An' aye the overcome o' the song,
"The swan swims bonnie, O."

13. Noo the king's dochter she came doon the stairs,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
Says, "Harpers, harpers, change your tune,
An I'll gie you my gowd an' my land,"
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

14. They say, "O fair lady, we canna change wir tune,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"We canna change wir tune, till we be deen,"
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

15. Doon cam her mother and her oldest brother,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
Says, "Harpers harpers, play ower the tune,
An' we'll make ye lords fan (when) ye are done
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

16. They've ta'en her oot an' they've kill't her by fire,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' they've burned her tee the harper's desire,
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 02:02 PM

Hi,

Fragmented short version from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/M, p. 05879. Cf. Willie Mathieson (Child M)

Binorie- sung by Mrs. J. H. Goodall of East Gate, Alford,   Aberdeenshire about 1931.

1    Ther were twa sisters lived in yonder toon,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
A bonnie miller lad came a courtin' o' them,
He was the bonnie miller laddie o Binorie, O.

2    He courted the eldest wi' mony a gowd ring,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
But he courted the youngest wi' a far better thing,
       She was the bonnie miller lassie o Binorie, O.

3    "O sister, O sister we'll go to the broom,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
We'll hear the bonnie blackbirds whistlin ower their tune,
   But they didna see the miller o Binorie, O[1]."

4. "O sister, O sister let's go to the dam,
       Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
An' the eldest knocked the youngest into the dam,
   Into the dam o Binorie, O.

5. "O sister, O sister give me your hand,
       Binorie, O, an' Binorie, O,
I'll gie you all my yellow gowd, I'll gie you all my land,
But I canna gi'e you the miller o Binorie, O."

6. "It wasna for your yellow gowd I dang you in,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
But ye're sae very white an' I'm sae very din,
   An' ye're the miller's bonnie lassie o Binorie, O."

7. The miller's servant lass she ran out to the dam,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie, O,
She saw a new droon't lady or a white silken swan,
    Floating up an' doon the dam o Binorie, O.

8. "Miller, miller there's fish in yer dam,
   Binorie, O an' Binorie, O
Or else a new droon't lady or a white silken swan,
Floating up an' doon the dam o Binorie, O."

____________________

1. stanza missing- this line should be where they go try and see the bonnie miller laddie

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 02:46 PM

Hi,

Single stanza with music from James Madison Carpenter MSS Collection (American Folklife Center, Library of Congress / VWML, London) p.04170

Binorie - From Mrs. G. Duncan, melody of the Rev. James B. Duncan family with one stanza of text, c. 1905.

"O sister, O sister will ye go to the dam?
       Binorie, O and Binori,
And see your father's fish boats safely to dry land
And see the miller lad o Binorie?"
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 03:35 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08709, standard text, cf. Child M.

Binorie - sung by Mrs. William Duncan, Tories, Oyne, By Turriff, Aberdeenshire, about 1931.

1    Twa Scottish girlies lived in a booer,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
A miller laddie a courted them cam,
   By the bonnie milldams o Binorie, O.

2    He courted the elder wi jewels and rings,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
He's courted the younger wi far better things,
   His ane dearest lassie o Binorie, O.

3.  "O sister, O sister will ye tak a walk?
       Binorie, O Binorie,
We'll hear the blackbirds whistlin' ower their tune,
   An' see the bonnie miller o Binorie, O.

4   They walked up, an' sae did they doon,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
Until the elder one dang the younger in,
To droon in the dams o Binorie, O."

5.   "O sister, O sister, ye'll reach me yer han',
       Binorie, O Binorie,
An' ye'll get pairt o my siller an' third pairt my land,
An' be the millert's lassie o Binorie, O."

6.   "It wasna for that that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, O an' Binorie,
(Because) that ye're sae very fair, an' I sae very dun,
   An' ye'll droon in the dam o Binorie."

7.   She swimmed up an' she swimmed doon,
Binorie, O Binorie,
An' she sank tee the bottom nae mair tee rise again,
Frae the bonnie milldams o Binorie, O."

8.   The miller's servant girl came for water to wash his hands,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
There's somebody in, or else there's a swan,
In the bonnie milldam o Binorie, O."

9.   "They fished up an' they fished doon,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
They've ta'en her out and laid her on a stane,
    By the bonnie milldams o Binorie, O."

10.   They wisna ane kent her by her yellow hair,
      Binorie O an' Binorie,
But the bonnie miller laddie he knew the rings he gae her,
She was his ane dearest lassie o Binorie, O.

10.   There wis mony a ane there at her oot-takin',
   Binorie, O Binorie,
The bonnie millert laddie died at her grave makin';
    She was his ane dearest lassie o Binorie, O.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 04:22 PM

Hi,

This short version is from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/160, Disc Side 154, 01:14. Cf. Child M, standard Scottish text.

Binorie- sung by William McKenzie of Kennethmont, Aberdeenshire, about 1931.

1    There were twa sister who lived in yonder bower,
      Binorie, aye and Binorie, O,
There was a bonnie millet's laddie came courting them there,
   He's the bonnie millet's laddie o Binorie, O.

2 He courted the one with many gold rings,
      Binorie, aye and Binorie, O,
But he courted the other wi far better things,
   She's the bonnie millet's lassie o Binorie, O.

3 "O sister, O sister will you take a walk?
       Binorie, aye and Binorie, O?
You'll hear the bonnie blackbird a whistlin' ower its tune,
   An' ye'll see the bonnie millet's laddie o Binorie, O."

4 So they travelled eastward, an' they travelled west,
      Binorie, aye and Binorie, O,
When the oldest danged the youngest into the dam,
   "You're the bonnie millet's lassie o Binorie, O."

5 "O sister, O sister give me your hand,
       Binorie, O Binorie,
An' I'll give you all my yellow gold, likewise all my land,
   I'm the bonnie millet's lassie o Binorie, O."

6 "It was not for your yellow gold that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, aye and Binorie, O,
Because you're so very white, love, an' I'm so very din,
You're the bonnie millet's lassie o Binorie, O."

7 So she swum eatward an' she swum west,
    Binorie, aye and Binorie, O
Till she sunk to the bottom for to rise no more,
    She's the bonnie millet's lassie o Binorie, O."

8   The miller's servant lass came up to the dam,
      Binorie, O Binorie,
It was for some water to wash the millet's hand,
Frae the bonnie dams o Binorie, O[1]."

9   "O millet, O millet, there's fish in your dam,
       Binorie, aye and Binorie, O,
Or it is a droont lady, or a milk-white swan,
    Swimming up and doon the dams o Binorie, O."

10 Ye widna kent her by her bonnie goon o silk,
       Binorie aye and Binorie, O
But ye'd kent her by her middle was so jimp,
She's the bonnie millet's lassie o Binorie, O.
__________________

1. this line is missing.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 04:36 PM

Using Carpenter and Greig-Duncan you should be able to give a good stab at what the Scottish broadside that they undoubtedly stem from looked like. Then a comparison with the 17th century London version might throw up some interesting insights.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 06:28 PM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, p. 07725, standard version (Child M type) that Carpenter got from Miss Duncan in 1932.

Binorie- from recitation of Mr. Shivas before 1929 when he died; collected by Miss Duncan of Old Deer, Aberdeenshire.

1. "Sister, O sister, will ye go tee the broom
Binorie O Binorie,
"An' hear the blackbird cheenge her tune,
An' see the bonnie mullert laddie o Binorie?"

2. They hadna been an oor (hour) at the broom,
Binorie, O Binorie,
Till they heard the blackbird cheenge her tune,
But they couldna see the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie.

3. They hadna been an oor (hour) at the broom,
Binorie O Binorie,
Till the elder sister dang the younger in,
Tee the bonnie mulldams o Binorie.

4. She sweemed up and she sweemed doon,
Binorie O Binorie,
Till the elder sister dang the younger in
Tee the bonnie mulldams o Binorie.

5. "Sister O sister, will ye reach out yer han'?
Binorie, O Binorie,
"An' ye's be the heirs o a' my lan's,
An' get the bonnie mullert lad o Binorie."

6. "Sister O sister, will ye reach out yer glove?
Binorie, O Binorie,
"An' ye'll be the heir o my truelove,
An' ye'll get the mullert lad o Binorie."

7. "It wisna for that I dang you in,
Binorie, O Binorie,
"Bet because ye are fair an' I an din,
I'll droon ye in the dams o Binorie."

8. The mullert's eldest daughter gaed oot tee the dams,
Binorie, O Binorie,
To get some water to wash her father's han's.
In the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

9. "O father, O father, get doon tee yer dams,
Binorie, O Binorie,
For up an' doon a droon't woman sweems,
In the bonnie mulldams o Binorie."

10. They couldna ken her by her bonnie yellow hair,
Binorie, O Binorie,
But weel kent her by the rings that he gae her,
She wis the bonnie mullert's lass o Binorie.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 06 Jun 18 - 10:45 PM

Hi Steve,

There are probably over 40 Scottish versions between Greig/Duncan, Carpenter and the few School of Scottish Studies. So far there are three distinct forms, two of which relate to the English (James Smith) of the mid-1600s. I thought you would be interested in the dark skin (din, dun, brown) murder motive which relates to Child 73 and 295.

Still waiting on word from the Bodleian Library on Rimbault's 1656 broadside from their head archivist after an initial search by a staff person failed to locate any trace of a broadside titled, "The Miller's Melody," or, "The Miller and the King's Daughter."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 07 Jun 18 - 11:55 PM

Hi,

Fragment from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08706. Has a variation of Mrs. Brown's first refrain.

Binorie (Two Sisters)- sung by Mrs. B.D. Cameron of probably Aberdeenshire collected by Alexander Keith before 1931.

    There was two sisters lived in a town
       Edinborough, Edinborough
There came a knight to be there wooer
They're the grey millert's lassie o Binorie, O.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 12:11 AM

Hi,

Two stanza fragment with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, p. 08704

Twa Sisters- sung by Carrie Lindsay of unknown location, probably Aberdeenshire, collected by Carpenter before 1931.

1    There were twa sisters in a toon,
      Binorie, aye[1] and Binorie, O.
And a bonnie miller laddie cam a-courtin' them,
   The bonnie miller laddie o Binorie, O.

2    He courted the younger ane wi' ribbons and wi' rings,
       Binorie, aye and Binorie, O.
He's courted the other wi' far better things,
   He's her bonnie miller laddie o Binorie, O.
__________________

1. written "ey"

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 12:30 AM

Hi,

The first of two US Carpenter versions of Child 10 is from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/7/1/C, pp. 10635-10636 (my title). It follows Child Y from Parsons, 1770. The end refrain is shortened in stanza 3 because of an extra line

Bow Down- from the singing of Becky F. Jones of Cary, North Carolina c. 1938.

1. "O sister, O sister let's take a walk,
Bow down, Bow down
O sister, O sister let's take a walk,
The bough was bent for me,
O sister, O sister let's take a walk,
To see those little ships floating about."
REFRAIN: Be true, true, be true my love,
My love will be true to me.

2. So they walked out on salty brim,
Bow down, Bow down
They walked out on salty brim,
Where the bough was bent for me,
They walked out on salty brim,
Where the oldest pushed the young one in.
REFRAIN: Be true, true, be true my love,
My love will be true to me.

3. "O sister, O sister, lend me your hand,
Bow down, bow down,
Sister, O sister, lend me your hand,
She bent and she bowed unto me,
Sister, O sister, lend me your hand,
I neither will lend you my hand not my glove,
But I will marry your own true love,
My love will be true to me.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 12:43 AM

Hi,

Single stanza with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/I, p. 11974

Twa Sisters- sung by Mrs. T Durward, no location probably Aberdeenshire, c. 1931

1    There were twa sisters in a ha',
      Binorie, o and Binorie.
And they had a taylor atween them twa,
   He's the bonnie millert laddie o Binorie.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 12:18 PM

Hi,

There are three more versions of Child 10 to post from Carpenter's collection. I've been wading though Child's version A-Z and trying to figure out the best way to group like versions. The difficulty is with the refrains and forms since some refrains vary with nearly identical text. There's also the resuscitation stanzas (making a harp/fiddle from the dead sister's body/hair) which are not present in the standard Scottish and English/American "Bow down" versions.

Perhaps someone can help me confirm the source of Child Rc, titled The Barkshire Tragedy (yes, this is Child 10) which according to Child is:

"Rc. 'The Scouring of the White Horse,' p. 158, from Berkshire, as heard by Mr Hughes from his father."

What's confusing is Hughes gives the source as "a ruddy-faced, smock-frocked man, who, with his eyes cast up to the tent-top, droned through his nose the following mournful ditty:"

La, "The Drowned Lady" also from The Scouring of the White Horse, is also attributed to Hughes' father (John Hughes) who learned it as a boy in Wales at Ruthyn also Ruthin.

Hughes grew up in Berkshire (now Oxfordshire). This is another difficult detail I'm trying to resolve.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 02:34 PM

Hi,

I'm also looking for suggestions of ways to categorize the different versions of Child 10. Bronson has five music groups A-D with group B divided into six sub-groups. Group D has some of the "Swans Swim so Bonnie" refrains.

Listing all the different versions with its own letter designation like Child did is impractical since there are hundreds of versions.

This is what I have so far:

A. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" from "Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation," London by Dr. James Smith (Editions 1655, 1656, 1658-- only 1658 verified) Child A, L.
    a. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" from " Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation" 1655 from Mr. Smith (reprinted 1656, 1658, 1817 Facetiae edition)
    b. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" unconfirmed broadside "printed for Francis Grove, 1656," by Mr. Smith; text reprinted in Notes and Queries, 1st S., v, 591 by Edward F. Rimbault, 1852.
    c. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" from 1656 edition "Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation" as reprinted in Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 315, 1806. Has several emendations presumably made by Jamieson.
    d. "The Miller and the King's Daughter," as from Mr. (James) Smith "Wit Restor'd, 1658, " p. 51," in the reprint of 1817, p. 153.
    e. "The Miller and the King's Daughters," Wit and Drollery, ed. 1682, p. 87.
    f. "Damnd Mill-Dam" as heard by Anna Seward of Derbyshire about 1749, Child L from Anna Seward to Walter Scott, April 25-29, 1802: Letters addressed to Sir Walter Scott, I, No 54, Abbotsford.
    g. "The Miller's Melody" dated c. 1790 by G.A.C. from Notes and Queries, 1st S., v, 316, 1852, Child La.
    h. "The Drowned Lady," from Thomas Hughes' father (John Hughes of Oxfordshire) learned as a boy in Wales c.1800 published in "The Scouring of the White Horse," p. 161, 1859, Child Lb.

B. "The Twa Sisters" or "The Cruel Sister" Scottish, from Anna Gordon Brown of Aberdeenshire, learned c. 1760, written down in 1783. Child B, three refrains.
    a. 'The Twa Sisters,' Jamieson-Brown Manuscript, fol. 39, 1783, Child Ba.
    b. 'The Cruel Sister,' Wm. Tytler's Brown Manuscript, No 15, 1783, Child Bb.
    c. 'The Cruel Sister,' Abbotsford Manuscript, "Scottish Songs," fol. 21, c.1803, Child Bc.
    d. 'The Twa Sisters,' Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 48, 1806, Child Bd.
    e. "The Cruel Sister," Scott's Minstrelsy, II, 143 (1802). Composite of Mrs. Brown's text and an Irish text recreated by Scott, Child C with Binnorie refrains.
    f. "The Two Fair Sisters" taken from an unknown singer (based on or similar to Scott's Child C/Mrs. Brown's version) probably from Nithsdale/Galloway before 1810 by Allan Cunningham in his The Songs of Scotland, Ancient and Modern: with an introduction, Volume 2, 1825.
    g. "Three Sisters." From the recitation of Mrs. Johnston, a North-country Scottish lady; Kinloch's Manuscripts, II, 49; 1826 or later; Child D
    h. Twa Sisters- taken from Mrs. Eleonora Sharpe of Dumfriesshire about c1798 from C.K. Sharpe's Ballad Book, No. X, p. 30, 1824; Child E.

C. "The King in the North Country" or "Bow Down" English and American, earliest date 1770 Child Y from Parsons near Kent. Refrains include "Bow Down" "Balance unto me," and "I'll be true to my love," similar form as B, first line repeated twice with three refrains.
    a. "There was a king lived in the North Country." Communicated to Percy, April 7. 1770, and April 19, 1775, by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent from a spinning-wheel operator; Child Y.

D. "Binnorie (Binorie)" and "Bonnie Milldams o Binnorie" Scottish, quatrain form with resuscitation stanzas

E. "Binnorie (Binorie)" and "Bonnie Milldams o Binnorie" Scottish, quatrain form without resuscitation stanzas; the second refrain is variable.

* * * *

Nearly all the Carpenter versions are E while two are D, and one has a different refrain. Almost all North American version are C. Although Child C has the Binnorie refrains established in 1778 by Pinkerton it's based mostly on B sung by Mrs. Brown-- the refrains were added by Scott from a 14 stanza Irish version which unfortunately can't be found in its original form. I've added Child L (English) to Child A (English) although they are somewhat different.

Suggestions welcomed,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 03:12 PM

Richie, both songs appear in the book as cited.

The book looks like fiction. Thomas Hughes is the author, but "his" father calls him "Richard."

It is written like fiction, with plenty of conversations.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 04:05 PM

Hi Lighter,

I know Child asked Hughes his source(s) and got the info on Child La. "The Drowned Lady" from Hughes who said he got it from his father (at least some of it).

I'll just assume then that Child Rc. is also from Hughes' father (since Child says so) and that Hughes source in the book is probably fiction.

Hughes grew up in Berkshire so it makes sense,

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 04:39 PM

Not having looked in any detail myself, but your divisions/categories look fine from here.

>>>>>>Bronson has five music groups A-D with group B divided into six sub-groups.<<<<< should read 'A-E' presumably. It might be worth stating clearly the differences, if any, between your subgroups and Bronson's.


BTW the version I sing uses the tune and chorus of Bronson's 26 which comes from a few miles from where I live. AS for the text I make it up as I go along based on the many versions I've come across.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 05:43 PM

> AS for the text I make it up as I go along based on the many versions I've come across.

That's the way to do it!

I sing two different versions, one with the multi-repeat "bow down" format, Richie's C, and one with the "Bonny bows of London refrain similar to Child F, but with different verses, which I got from Pete Nalder. I have mainly different sets of words for them but they get mixed up a bit.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 10:01 AM

Hi,

Here's how the Child versions (and a few other versions) of Child 10 are organized now. There are two archaic versions from America with flower refrains which I may add as a separate letter heading. The categories (letter designations) either have resuscitation stanzas (dead sister's body/hair is made into an instrument and she is resuscitated and speaks through the instrument) or they don't-- and are labeled as such.

A. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" with resuscitation stanzas. From second edition, 1656, of "Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation," London by Dr. James Smith ("Musarum Deliciæ" reprinted "Wit Restor'd 1658-- only 1658 verified, reprinted in 1817) Child A, L with resuscitation stanzas.
    a1. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" from " Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation" 1656 from Mr. Smith (reprinted 1658 "Wit Restor'd", and again in 1817 Facetiae edition)
    a2. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" unconfirmed broadside "printed for Francis Grove, 1656," by Mr. Smith; text reprinted in Notes and Queries, 1st S., v, 591 by Edward F. Rimbault, 1852.
    a3. "The Miller and the King's Daughter" from 1656 edition "Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation" as reprinted in Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 315, 1806. Has several emendations presumably made by Jamieson.
    a4. "The Miller and the King's Daughter," as from Mr. (James) Smith reprint in "Wit Restor'd, 1658, " p. 51," in the reprint of 1817, p. 153. Sir John Mennes, "Wit Restor'd In severall select poems Not formerly publisht" (London: R. Pollard, N. Brooks, and T. Dring, 1658), pp. 51-54:
    a5. "The Miller and the King's Daughters," Wit and Drollery, ed. 1682, p. 87.
    b. "Damnd Mill-Dam" as heard by Anna Seward of Derbyshire about 1749, Child L from Anna Seward to Walter Scott, April 25-29, 1802: Letters addressed to Sir Walter Scott, I, No 54, Abbotsford.
    c. "The Miller's Melody" dated c. 1790 by G.A.C. from Notes and Queries, 1st S., v, 316, 1852, Child La.
    d. "The Drowned Lady," from Thomas Hughes' father (John Hughes of Oxfordshire) c.1800 from The Scouring of the White Horse, p. 161, 1859, Child Lb.

B. "The Twa Sisters" or "The Cruel Sister" with resuscitation stanzas. Scottish, from Anna Gordon Brown of Aberdeenshire, learned c. 1760, written down in 1783. Child B, three refrains
    a1. "The Twa Sisters," Jamieson-Brown Manuscript, fol. 39, 1783, Child Ba.
    a2. "The Cruel Sister," William Tytler's Brown Manuscript, No 15, 1783, Child Bb.
    a3. "The Cruel Sister," Abbotsford Manuscript, "Scottish Songs," fol. 21, c.1803, Child Bc.
    a4. "The Twa Sisters," Jamieson's Popular Ballads, I, 48, 1806, Child Bd.
    b. "The Cruel Sister," Scott's Minstrelsy, II, 143 (1802). Composite of Mrs. Brown's text and an Irish text recreated by Scott, Child C with Binnorie refrains.
    c. "The Two Fair Sisters" taken from an unknown singer (based on or similar to Scott's Child C/Mrs. Brown's version) probably from Nithsdale/Galloway before 1810 by Allan Cunningham in his The Songs of Scotland, Ancient and Modern: with an introduction, Volume 2, 1825.
    d. "Three Sisters." From the recitation of Mrs. Johnston, a North-country Scottish lady; Kinloch's Manuscripts, II, 49; 1826 or later; Child D.
    e. "Twa Sisters," taken from Mrs. Eleonora Sharpe of Dumfriesshire about c1798 from C.K. Sharpe's Ballad Book, No. X, p. 30, 1824; Child E.

C. "The King in the North Country" or "Bow Down" without resuscitation stanzas. English and American, earliest date 1770 Child Y from Parsons near Kent. Refrains include "Bow Down" "Balance unto me," and "I'll be true to my love," similar form as B, first line repeated twice with three refrains.
    a. "There was a king lived in the North Country." Communicated to Percy, April 7. 1770, and April 19, 1775, by the Rev. P. Parsons, of Wye, near Ashford, Kent from a spinning-wheel operator; Child Y.
    b. "The Twa Sisters," no date but after 1826, no title, taken from Kinloch Manuscripts, VI, p. 89, Child S.
    c. "The Three Sisters," by Seleucus, a Lancashire ballad, from Notes and Queries, 1st S., vi, 102; dated July 31, 1852, Child Ra.
    d. "The Barkshire Tragedy." From Thomas Hughes 'The Scouring of the White Horse,' p. 158, 1859. According to Child, it's "from Berkshire, as heard by Mr Hughes from his father (John Hughes)" Child Rc.
    e. "Bo down (Bow Down)." Written down for John Francis Campbell, Esq., Nov. 7, 1861, at Wishaw House, Lancashire, by Lady Louisa Primrose (quatrain form, two refrains). Published in Popular Tales of the West Highlands, Campbell 1862, Volume 4 page 125, Child Rb.
    f. "The Two Sisters," dated c. 1880 from ladies in New York, and by them from a cousin, Child Z.

D. "Binnorie (Binorie)" and "Bonnie Milldams o Binnorie" also "Bonny Bows o London" and "Norham, down by Norham" with resuscitation stanzas. Scottish, quatrain form, named after refrains.
    a. "The Twa Sisters" Scottish c. 1790. Copied Oct. 26, 1861, by J. F. Campbell, Esq., from a collection made by Lady Caroline Murray of Richmond, Surrey (b. 1791); traced by her to an old nurse, and beyond the beginning of this century. Refrains are varied from standard "Binorie" refrains, Child Q.
    b. "Cruel Sister" composite of Irish tradition and Mrs. Brown's Scottish version recreated by Scott published in his Minstrelsy, 1802 with resuscitation stanzas, Child C.
    c. "There Were Three Sisters" taken from I. Goldie (J. Goldie?) of Paisley in March, 1825. From Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 147, Child H.
    d. "The Bonny Bows o London" from the recitation of Agnes Lyle, Kilbarchan, 27th July, 1825. From ESPB, volume 1, 1882 as from Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 383. Child, Version F.
    e. "The Twa Sisters." From the recitation of M. Kinnear, the editor's niece from Mearnshire, north of Scotland on 23d August, 1826. From Kinloch Manuscripts, B, 425. 1827, p.136, Child I.
    f. "Binnorie" fragment from Mrs. Lindores of Kelso Roxburghshire, c.1926, Mr. G.R. Kinloch's papers, Kinloch Manuscripts, II, 59, Child K.
    g. "The Bonny Bows of London," taken down from an old woman from north Scotland. From Ancient Ballads and Songs of the North of Scotland, p. 128, Buchan, 1828, Child Oa.
    h. "Norham, Down By Norham" dated c.1830 as communicated by Mr. Thomas Lugton, of Kelso, Roxburghshire, as sung by an old cotter-woman fifty years ago; learned by her from her grandfather; Child W.
    i. "Benorie" Campbell MS from Scottish highlands, c.1860, John Francis Campbell was author of "Popular Tales of the West Highlands;" Child V.
    j. The Bonny Bows o' London- from the singing of an old woman in Buckie, (Enzie, Banffshire,) who died in 1866. From Traditional Ballad Airs, edited by W. Christie, I, 42; text modified from Buchan's Ballads of the North of Scotland; Child Ob.

E. "Binnorie (Binorie)" and "Bonnie Milldams o Binnorie" without resuscitation stanzas. Scottish, quatrain form; named after refrains, the second refrain is usually variable. Early date 1778 Pinkerton.
    a. 'Binnorie" partially traditional from Edinburgh, from Pinkerton's Scottish Tragic Ballads, p. 72 MS dated 1778, published 1781, Child N.
    b. "Binnorie," fragment from Dr. Joseph Robertson's Note-Book, January 1, 1830, p. 7, Child X.
    c. "Binorie, O an' Binorie," from recitation at Old Deir (Deer), 1876, by Mrs. A. F. Murison; manuscript, p. 79, Child M.

F. "Hey Nanny, O" and "Swans Swim Bonnie" with resuscitation stanzas. Irish-Scottish, quatrain form, named after refrains. Some versions have and early skin color stanza.
    a. "Cruel Sister" Irish dated c. 1790, a composite using a fourteen stanzas transcription from the recitation of an old Irish woman by Miss Charlotte Brooke. Sent to Scott by J. C. Walker, Esq. the ingenious historian of the Irish bards, Child C.
    b. "There Were Three Sisters"- from Mrs. King of Kilbarchan. Renfrewshire c. 1825; Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 104, Child G.
    c. "The Swan Swims Bonnie O" unknown informant, Scotland, 1827, Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 245; Child Pa.
    d. "The Swan Swims Bonnie O" fragment from unknown informant, Scotland, Motherwell's Minstrelsy, Appendix, p. xx. 1827; Child Pb.
    e. "The Miller's Melody" from an 1870 issue of Notes and Queries, 4th S., V, 23, from the north of Ireland; Child J.
    f . "Hey Ho, my Nancy Oh!" Fragment contributed by T.B. as sung by James Moylan, a gardener, from Petrie No. 688, c. 1902.

G. "Hey Nanny, O" and "Swans Swim Bonnie" without resuscitation stanzas. Irish-Scottish, quatrain form, named after refrains.
    a. "The Swim Swom Bonny" sung by Nicholas W. Butcher of Wetzel County, WV, before 1935, Bayard, published Barry BFSSNE.

H. "Cold blows the Wind," or "Wind and the rain" Irish, American
    a. "Sister, Dear Sister," no informant given, fragment from Allingham's Ballad Book, p. xxxiii; from Ireland, 1865, Child T.
    b. "The Wind and Rain (Two Sisters)" sung by Rev. J. L. Sims of Pageton, WV, on October 13, 1931 as collected by Buchanan; Barry BFSSNE.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 10:23 AM

Hi Richard and Steve,

Steve, should be Bronson A-E :) Your version by Charles Lolley of Driffield, Yorkshire was published in JFSS 1906, do you known when Kidson collected it?

I heard back from several staff members at Bodleian about Rimbault's broadside. The last was Jo Maddocks; Assistant Curator of Rare Books;
Weston Library (Bodleian Libraries), Broad Street, Oxford, OX1 3BG who said:

What a muddle. At any rate, it doesn’t sound as though Gregory himself saw a copy of the broadside, which relieves us of the worry that there might be a copy somewhere in the Bodleian that we don’t know about! I think if the broadside ever did exist, it’s safe to say that there aren’t any recorded copies now.

Maddocks showed it to several experts at the Bodleian who referred her to their 1658 copy of Wit Restor'd at the Bodelian. See Lighter's post of that text above. See also the link to Gregory's lines about the broadside in Victorian Songhunters, 2006-- above.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 10:48 AM

Hi Steve,

Kidson titled Lolley's version "I'll Be True To My Love (Berkshire Tragedy)" which he collected in 1892. The reference to Berkshire Tragedy is to Thomas Hughes version named "Barkshire Tragedy" that Child said was learned from Hughes father, John Hughes of Wales, then Berkshire. Hughes version was published in "Scouring of the White Horse," 1859 and again by Broadwood in 1893.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 11:27 AM

Hi,

The next Carpenter version of Child 10 is James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/T, pp. 08719-08720. A better recording is found online here:
https://www.scotslanguage.com/articles/view/id/5156 as recorded by Alan Lomax in 1951. Lomax notes:
John Strachan was a well-to-do farmer at the Aberdeenshire farm of Crichie, near Fyvie, who had a wonderful fund of old ballads and bothy ballads. In 1951 Hamish Henderson took American folklorist Alan Lomax to record Strachan's singing. Strachan was born in 1875 and died in 1958. From the Alan Lomax Collection at the American Folklife Center, Library of Congress.

Carpenter gives two stanzas with music (c. 1931)- the first stanza has changed in the 1951 recording and the second is missing.

(The Two Sisters) Binnorie O Binnorie- sung by John Strachan of Aberdeenshire, c. 1931 and again in 1951,

There were two sisters lived in a glen[1]
Binnorie o Binnorie,
And the bonnie millert laddie cam a–coortin o them,
By the bonnie mill dams o Binnorie.

[He courted the elder wis diamonds and rings[2],
Binnorie o Binnorie,
He courted the younger wis far better things,
By the bonnie mill dams o Binnorie.]

Oh sister, oh sister, will ye take a walk
Roond be the dams o Binnorie,
For to hear the blackbird whistle o’er its notes
By the bonnie mill dams o Binnorie.

They walked up and sae did they doon
And roon be the dams o Binnorie,
Till the elder stepped aside and dang the younger in
To the deep mill dams o Binnorie.

Oh sister, oh sister stretch oot yer hand
Binnorie o Binnorie,
And I’ll gie ye my gold and a fifth o my land
For the bonny millert laddie o Binnorie.

It wisna for yer money that I dang you in
Binnorie o Binnorie,
It’s you being so fair love and I so very grim[3]
For the bonny millert laddie o Binnorie.

Oh millert oh millert rin oot yer dam
Binnorie o, Binnorie,
For there’s some grand lady or some deid swan
Floatin up and doon the dams o Binnorie.

__________

1. There were two sisters lived in a booer[bower]
Binnorie o Binnorie,
And a knight cam tae be their wooer,
By the bonnie mill dams o Binnorie.

2. stanza missing from the 1951 recording

3. usually "din"

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 12:02 PM

Hi,

Fragment with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/D, p. 11671.

Two Sisters- sung by Alex Troup (1851- 1939) of Overton, district of Insch, Aberdeenshire; brother of Isaac Troup, both contributed to Greig-Duncan c. 1908, will cross reference.

1. There were two sisters lived in a booer[bower]
Binorie o, an' Binorie,
A bonnie millert lad cam a-courtin' o them,
Twas the bonnie millert laddie o Binorie.

2. He courted the elder wis jewels and wis rings,
Binorie o, an' Binorie,
But he courted the younger wis far better things,
She was the bonnie millert's lassie o Binorie.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 12:24 PM

hi,

The last Carpenter version of Twa Sisters is James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, p. 07747: American, categorized under standard English versions without resuscitation stanzas, my C (form Child Y, 1770), both miller and sister are hanged.

The Two Sisters (Twa Sisters)- sung by Viola Cook of Whitesburg, Kentucky about 1938.

1. There lived an old lord by the northern sea,
Bowee down!
There lived an old lord by the northern sea,
Bow, and balance me,
There lived an old lord by the northern sea,
And he had daughters one, two, three.
I'll be true to my love,
If my love'll be true to me.

2. A young man came a courting there,
And he made the choice of the youngest fair.

3. He bought the youngest a beaver hat;
And the eldest sister didn't like that.

4   As they walked down to the water's brim,
The eldest sister pushed the youngest in.

5 "O sister, dear sister lend me your hand,
And you may have my house and land."

6   She floated down to the miller's dam;
The miller drew her safe to land.

7 And off her fingers took five gold rings,
Then into the water he plunged her again.

8 The miller was hanged on a gallows so high,
The eldest sister there close by.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 05:27 PM

Thanks, Richie.
Charles Lolley was from Howden in the East Riding of Yorkshire, but had moved to Leeds by the time Kidson came across him. He already knew some songs himself but must have done some actual collecting on behalf of Kidson in the East Riding. It's a pity Lolley's records haven't survived. Several of my friends have been researching Kidson's work and next time I see them I'll ask about Lolley's work. Where did your date of 1892 come from?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 02:30 PM

Hi,

This is one of the oldest American versions and has been traced to Big Sammy Hicks (1753-1835) from three separate North Carolina sources-- one is from Jane Hicks Gentry who sang her version for Sharp in 1916 (Two Sisters, Sharp A, EFSSA). The chorus: Gilley flower gent the roseberry, is derived from (Gilleyflower gentle, rosemary) which A. G. Gilchrist wrote about in "A Note on the 'Herb' and Other Refrains":

The curious "Jury flower gent the rose berry" of one of Mr. Sharp's Appalachian songs, though at first sight a much decayed form, probably comes quite near the original in sound if not sense, for" gelofir gent " is a description, c. 1500, of the gilliflower. The line runs, in more intelligible versions, Gilliflower gentle and rosemary. The line "Gilliflower gentle or rosemary" occurs in a lyric by Sir Thomas Philipps (temp. Henry VIII) in company with "Marjoram gentle or lavender" and "Camomile, borage, or savory.

If Big Sammy got the ballad when he lived along Tuckahoe Creek (St. James River, Goochland County) in Virginia, as it would seem, the ballad would date to the first part of the 1700s in Virginia through his source.

This version is from Nora Hicks of Mast's Gap, North Carolina who got the ballad from Fanny Hicks (1837–1914), who was Big Sammy's granddaughter on her father's side.

The Two Sisters, Variant 1- sung by Mrs. Nora Hicks. It was copied down by Addie Hicks and given to Abrams by Edith Walker about 1939. The correct refrain was written out only in stanza 12.

1. There was two sisters loved one man,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry,
The youngest one he loved first,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

2. As they were walking by the brook,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
The old one pushed the young one in
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

3. Sister, sister give me your hand,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
And you may have all my land
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

4. Sister, sister give me your glove
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
And you may have the one I love
Till the jury hangs over the Roseberry.

5. She floated up she floated down
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry,
She floated in to the miller's pond,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

6. Out run the miller with his long hook,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
He drew this fair woman out of the brook,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

7. It ain't a fish nor it ain't a swan
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
He picked her up and threw her back,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

8. She floated up and she floated down
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
She floated in to the harper's pond
Till the jury hangs over the Rose Berry

9. Out run the harper with his long hook
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
He drew this fair woman out at the brook
Till the jury hangs over the Rose berry.

10. It ain't a fish nor it ain't a swan,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
It is a fair woman in my pond,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

11. What will we make out of her breast bone so fine,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry?
We will make us a new fiddle to play on
All the jury hangs over the roseberry.

12. What will we make out of her fingers so small
Gilley flower gent the roseberry,
We will make us some new screws to play on
Till the jury hangs over the Rose

13. What will we make out of her hair so long
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry,
we will make us some new strings to play on
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

14. Up then spoke the first string,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry
Was my sister that pushed me in,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

15. Up then spoke the next string,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry,
It was the miller who threw me back
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

16. The miller was hung on the gallows so high,
Gilley slaver gent the roseberry,
The sister was burnt at a stake there by,
Till the jury hangs over the roseberry.

* * * *

The importance is that this is a variant of the old English version of Parsons 1770 near Kent but with an archaic chorus and resuscitation stanzas. Nora Hicks version is virtually unknown and was taken from the Abrams Collection at App State in MS form. It's considerably better than Jane Gentry's version that she got from her grandfather Council Harmon probably in the late 1800s. Council lived with his grandfather Big Sammy at Beech Mountain when he was a child after his father died when a tree fell on him when Council was about 8 and his mother, Sabra was widowed and unable to provide for her four small children. Later in life, Council (Counce) lived with Gentry for a time. He was one of the main sources of ballads and Jack tales in the family.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 03:29 PM

Hi,

Steve, the original MS is here with original title dated 1892 (by Roud, I presume, the MS is not dated). It also says Lolley got his version from a Driffield woman (East Riding, Yorkshire)
https://www.vwml.org/search?q=RN8%20lolley&is=1

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:07 PM

I know it is not a Carpenter version, but I know of another American version that mentions making a harp out of the girls breastbone which is not on your website yet:
The Two Sisters - Charles S. Brink

Sung by Charles Scott Brink near Smicksburg, Indiana County, Pennsylvania, on August 12, 1948 for Samuel Preston Bayard.

The recording was made available on Youtube a few years ago:
Samuel Preston Bayard folklore recordings- Charles S. Brink #4
The song begins at 10:12 in the video.

The "By Noling" refrain sounds to me like it may have originally been "Binnorie" or even "By Norham", it appears to be related to the most common Scottish form of the ballad.
The repetition of each line to make a four-line stanza with the refrain is also seen in the "Wind and Rain" variants which have a similar ending with the harp playing a tune that is the ballad itself.

Here's the Roud entry:
https://www.vwml.org/record/RoudFS/S372502

I wrote down the transcription of Mr. Brink's version as it was displayed in the video:

There was two sisters lived in the west,
By Noling, by Noling,
There was two sisters lived in the west,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

Along came a young lord and courted both of them,
By Noling, by Noling,
Along came a young lord and courted both of them,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The oldest one he gave a silver fan,
By Noling, by Noling,
The oldest one he gave a silver fan,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The youngest one he gave a gold ring,
By Noling, by Noling,
The youngest one he gave a gold ring,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The youngest one he intended for his bride,
By Noling, by Noling,
The youngest one he intended for his bride,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

These two sisters was crossing a stream,
By Noling, by Noling,
These two sisters was crossing a stream,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The oldest one she pushed the youngest in,
By Noling, by Noling,
The oldest one she pushed the youngest in,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

O sister, O sister, give to me your hand,
By Noling, by Noling,
O sister, O sister, give to me your hand, --
You may have the young lord and all of his command,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

No, sister, no, sister, I won't give you my hand,
For I can have the young lord and all of his command,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

She sank and she swam till she came to the miller's dam,
By Noling, by Noling,
She sank and she swam till she came to the miller's dam,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The miller he caught her on his hook,
By Noling, by Noling,
The miller he caught her on his hook,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

They took her breastbone and made a harp of it,
By Noling, by Noling,
They took her breastbone and made a harp of it,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

The first tune he played on't was called the Silver Lea,
By Noling, by Noling,
The first tune he played on't was called the Silver Lea,
Down by the waters a-rollling.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

A similar variant was also recorded by Alton Chester Morris from Mrs. C. S. MacClellan of High Springs, Florida in June 1937:
The Two Sisters - Mrs. C. S. MacClellan

Here's the Library of Congress reference:
https://www.loc.gov/item/afc9999005.5234

This variant of "The Twa Sisters" had some currency in Florida, but without the harp as far as I know.

Here's the text as Mrs. C. S. MacClellan sang it:

There was two sisters a-living in the East,
By Holding, by Holding,
There was two sisters a-living in the East,
Down by the waters rolling.

There was a young man and he courted them both,
By Holding, by Holding,
There was a young man and he courted them both,
Down by the waters rolling.

He loved the youngest as he loved his life,
By Holding, by Holding,
He loved the youngest as he loved his life,
Down by the waters rolling.

He gave the youngest a gay gold ring,
By Holding, by Holding,
He gave the youngest a gay gold ring,
Down by the waters rolling.

He gave the oldest a gay gold pin,
By Holding, by Holding,
He gave the oldest a gay gold pin,
Down by the waters rolling.

One day they was crossing a stream,
By Holding, by Holding,
One day they was crossing a stream,
Down by the waters rolling.

The oldest pushed the youngest in,
By Holding, by Holding,
The oldest pushed the youngest in,
Down by the waters rolling.

First she'd sink and then she'd swim,
By Holding, by Holding,
First she'd sink and then she'd swim,
Down by the waters rolling.

Sister, O sister, lend me your hand,
By Holding, by Holding,
Sister, O sister, lend me your hand,
Down by the waters rolling.

You can have the man and his house and his land,
By Holding, by Holding,
You can have the man and his house and his land,
Down by the waters rolling.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:28 PM

Hi,

TY, for the Bayard version. I have transcribed two other Bayard ballads from youtube. Many of Bayard's versions are excellent. See also his Irish version of Twa Sisters published by Barry in BFSSNE vol. 9 and 10. Bayard and Barry were two of the top New England (Bayard from PA) folk song authorities. Barry also published the first complete version of Twa Sister with "Wind and rain" refrain (1931), another distinct form with resuscitation stanzas. Barry wrote in 1935: "This version of The Two Sisters is unique: it is perhaps the most primitive that has survived in English tradition." He also labeled the Child versions of Twa Sisters to EE (failing to mention what Child AA and BB were).

Here's the oldest extant "Rolling" version from Georgia:

"Down by the Waters Rolling." Sung by Mrs. G. A. Griffin, learned in Georgia from her father before 1877, collected in Florida in 1937 by Morris.

There was two sisters living in the East,
By rolling, by rolling;
There was two sisters living in the East
Down by the waters rolling.

They were both courted by the young landlord,
By rolling, by rolling;
They were both courted by the young landlord,
Down by the waters rolling.

He gave the oldest a gay gold ring,
By rolling, by rolling;
He gave the oldest a gay gold ring,
Down by the waters rolling.

He gave the youngest a gay gold pin,
By rolling, by rolling;
He gave the youngest a gay gold pin,
Down by the waters rolling.

The eldest one shoved the youngest one in,
By rolling, by rolling;
"Sister, oh Sister, oh hand me your hand,
Down by the waters rolling."

"You can have the landlord and all his land,
By rolling, by rolling;
You can have the landlord and all his land,
Down by the waters rolling."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:36 PM

That's interesting, all of these "Down by the waters rolling" variants are very similar to each other.
There doesn't seem to be a sound recording of Mrs. Griffin's "Two Sisters" on the floridamemory site, even though many other of Griffin's excellent ballads are available there.

I also remember a recording of Ellen Stekert singing a New York version that also had the harp in it:
Songs of a New York Lumberjack

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:53 PM

Hi,

I suppose they should represent a specific sub-genre of Twa Sisters which I was planning on doing - and now will. Here's Ellen Stekert's text (to the link you provided).

Two Sisters- from Mr. Ezra ("Fuzzy") Barhight, age eighty-one, of Cohocton, New York. Fuzzy reported having learned this version from his mother; dated pre-1920.

There was two sisters lived in the West,
Bincely and binoly,
Was two sisters lived in the West,
Down where the waters is a-rolling.

There came a young lord and he courted them both,
There came a young lord and he courted them both.

To the youngest he gave her his heart and hand,
To the eldest he gave her a gay gold ring.

As these two sisters was crossing a bridge,
The youngest she pushed her sister in.

Oh, sister, oh, sister, give me your hand,
You can have the young lord and all of his land.

But she floated down to the miller's dam,
And the miller with his hook, well, he pulled her in.

Of her breastbone they made a harp,
Bineely and binoly,
Of her breastbone they made a harp,
Down where the waters is a-rolling.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 10:36 PM

Hi,

Anyone know the source of this version, I've written out the first two stanzas. Can't hear what he says at the beginning. There's a recording here:

http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/89116;jsessionid=41264C4799537906C991AD093A7B60FE

The Bonny Bonny Bows of London- sung by Brian Miller probably when he was a student at Glasgow University in 1970.

There was twa sisters in their booer
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding
A knicht had come an' courted them both
At the bonny bonny bows of London

He's courted the eldest wi' brooch and ring
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding
But he's courted the youngest wi' many better things
At the bonny bonny bows of London

* * * *

I've written most of the headnotes but they aren't completed: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british-and-other-versions--10-twa-sisters.aspx

It's taken a while :)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 04:24 PM

Hi,

There are numerous versions by the Scot travellers. This is by Johnny Whyte and is taken from his mother but is similar to John (Jock) Whyte's 1953 version (although Johnny's father was John (Jock) Whyte I'm not certain that they are the same). Johnny was born in 1910, traveled in Perth as a young man, and by 1975 when this was recorded was living in Montrose area near his brother Bryce Whyte (b. 1914) whose wife Betsy sang the same version. Johnny was recorded three times by Linda Williamson from 1975-78. The word "swim" in the refrain appears as sweem or sweems-- I've changed them all to "sweems." There is some melodic resemblance to the Kelby version collected by MacColl and sent to Bronson. Strangely the identical text is attributed to Christina MacAllister in MacColl's 1977 book, Travellers' Songs from England and Scotland.

Swan Sweems Sae Bonnie

1. Dear sisterie, dear sisterie, are you going for a walk,
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
And I'll show you wonderies before you come home,
And the swan but sweems sae bonnie-o.

2. Dear sister, dear sisterie, we'll go for a walk,
Hy-ie-o, eae bonnie-o;
If you show me wonderiee before we come home,
And the swan it sweems sae bonnie-o.

3. Dear sister, dear sisterie, we'll go for a walk,
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
If you show me wonderies before we come home,
And the swan 'at sweems sae bonnie-o.

4. Dear sisterie, dear sisterie, put your footen on marble stonie,
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
And I'll show you that wonderie before we turn home,
And the swan 'at sweems sae bonnie-o.

5. Dear sisterie, dear sisterie, I put my foot on the marble stonie,
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
But sly she throwed her against a' the stream,
And the swan 'at sweems sae bonnie-o.

6. Dear sister, dear sisterie, will you take-a my handie?
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
And I'll make you mistress of all my father's landie,
And the swan that sweem sae bonnie-o.

7. Sometime she sunk noo, other time she swum,
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
At last 'he came to the millerie's dam,
And the swan that sweems sae bonnie-o.

8. The millerie's maiden was out forie some waterie,
He-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
I see a maiden or a whitemilk swan,
And the swan that sweems sae bonnie-o.

9. Oh miller, oh millerie, oh dry up your dam,
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
I see a maiden or a white-milk swanie,
And the swan that sweems sae bonnie-o.

10 The miller drew noo up his dam
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
And then they took her and hand her oot,
And the swan that sweems sae bonnie-o.

11. There were three fiddleries on their-ie way
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
One o' them took three links of her hair-ie,
For to make the fiddle stringies
Her middle finger-ie for-ie tae make some fiddle pins
The other took now her-ie breast bone
For to mak a fiddle that would play a tune its lone
And the swan that sweems sae bonnie-o.

12. The three fiddlers went on their way,
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
Till they come to her father's castle wall
And the swan that sweems sae bonnie-o.

13. There now sits my father the king
Hy-ie-o, sae bonnie-o;
And likewise now my mother the queen,
And the swan that sweems sae bonnie-o.

14. Aye and there sits my false sister Jean,
[1st refrain omited]
Who's slyly throwed me against the stream,
And the swan 'at sweems sae bonnie-o.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 06:36 PM

Ritchie - all he says at the beginning of the track is "My name's Brian Miller. I'll sing for you The Twa Sisters".

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 05:05 AM

I've just listened to the Brian Miller (appropriate name!) recording. Fascinating! This is the first version I have ever met where the dead girl's ghost instructs the musician (in this case her father's fiddler) to use parts of her body for his instrument (in this case her hair and her little finger bone), and where the elder sister's punishment is tit for tat: to be drowned.

BTW, when I sing a version including the "resuscitation" I have her hair being used for the fiddle bow, which seems more appropriate than for a string, although that does mean that, if the fiddle is to play "all alone", rather than in the fiddler's hands, then the bow has to be involved as well.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 11:47 PM

Hi,

TY Mitch and Richard. I've contacted Siobhan Miller, Brian's daughter and a fine traditional ballad singer. She's going to send the request of the source to her dad-- maybe she'll record his version someday. Here's a different version she recorded of the Twa Sisters:

Swan Swims sae Bonnie: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Siobhan+Miller&&view=detail&mid=EF7E8A4389E283537C87EF7E8A4389E283537C87&&FORM=VDRVRV

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 12:04 AM

Hi,

Brian Miller emailed me yesterday:

Hi

This was a very long time ago! I believe I found it in a book in Rutherglen Library. From memory it could have been Ford's Vagabond Songs. Or maybe Christie. Might be able to check once home.

I once heard Martin Carthy sing a quite different ballad to the same tune. Pretty sure he said it was from Ford. Later he recorded with Dave Swarbrick another longer version of the two sisters ballad with this tune but lyrics from a different source. Think the CD was called something like Life and Limb.

Hope that helps a bit.

Brian         

PS I was at Strathclyde University from 1968 to 1972. Not Glagow. I believe the recording was made at Blairgowrie TMSA festival singing competition.

* * * *

After checking it was from Christie who used Peter Buchan's text (1828, below) and made some slight changes. Here are the notes and text from Buchan's "Ballads of the North of Scotland" II, 128, 1828.

Buchan's notes: I have seen four or five different versions of this ballad; but none in this dress, nor with the same chorus, which makes me give its insertion here. In this copy, we are informed that the lady's suitor was a king's son, whereas, in most of the others, he was only a baron. The fatal incidents are nearly the same. The old woman, from whose recitation I took it down, says she had heard another way of it, quite local, whose burden runs thus:- “Even into Buchanshire, vari, vari, O.”

THE BONNY BOWS O' LONDON

THERE were twa sisters in a bower,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding ;
And ae king's son hae courted them baith,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

He courted the youngest wi' brooch and ring,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
He courted the eldest wi' some other thing,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

It fell ance upon a day,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
The eldest to the youngest did say,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London:

“Will ye gae to the bonnie mill-dam
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
And see our father's ships come to land,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.”

They baith stood up upon a stane,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
The eldest dang the youngest in,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

She swimmed up, sae did she down,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
Till she came to the Tweed mill-dam,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

The miller's servant he came out,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
And saw the lady floating about,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

“O master, master, set your mill,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
There is a fish, or a milk-white swan,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.”

They could not ken her yellow hair,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
The scales o' gowd that were laid there,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

They could not ken her fingers sae white,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
The rings o' gowd they were sae bright,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

They could not ken her middle sae jimp,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
The stays o' gowd were so well laced,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

They could not ken her foot sae fair,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
The shoes o' gowd they were so rare,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

Her father's fiddler he came by,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
Upstarted her ghaist before his eye,
At the bonny, bonny bows of London.

“Ye'll take a lock o' my yellow hair,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
Ye'll make a string to your fiddle there,
At the bonny, bonny bows of London.

“Ye'll take a lith o' my little finger bane,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
And ye’ll make a pin to your fiddle then,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.”

He’s ta'en a lock o’ her yellow hair,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
And made a string to his fiddle there,
At the bouny, bonny bows o' London.

He's taen a lith o' her little finger bane,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding;
And he's made a pin to his fiddle then,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.

The first and spring the fiddle did play,
Hey wi' the gay and the grinding:
Said, “Ye'll drown my sister, as she's dune me,
At the bonny, bonny bows o' London.”
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 06:50 PM

Hi,

This may be oldest version with the same chorus. Copied as written from Transactions and Journal of Proceedings - Page 76, 77; Dumfriesshire and Galloway Natural History and Antiquarian Society - 1936. The title is obviously not a good one for there are "three sisters." I'm assuming it's a title that has been attached by an editor and the text is by Elizabeth St. Clair of Edinburgh about 1770 who compiled the Mansfield Manuscripts:

THE TWA SISTERS. [Bonny Bowes of London]
MS., pp. 171-176
The second and fourth lines of the first verse are given in a contracted form in verses 2-21.

1 There lived three sisters in a Bower
Heigh & a gay & a grounding
There came a knight to court them there
At the bonny bowes of London

2 He courted the Eldest with a knife
But he loved the youngest as his life

3 The Eldest to the Youngest said
Will Ye go our fathers ships to sea

4. But when they came to the seaside
The Eldest she the youngest betray'd

5. O set your foot upon yon stone
And reach me up my gay gold ring

6. She's set her foot upon yon stone
And she gave her a shoot & she's faen in

7. O sister tak me by the hand
And ye's get a my fathers land

8. O sister tak me by the glove
And ye'se get William to be your love.

9. I will not tak ye by the hand
For I ken Ill be heir of my fathers land

10 I will not tak ye by the glove
For I ken Ill get William to be my love

11. O aye she sank & aye she swam
Untill she came to yon Mill Dam

12 The millar came out wi' his lang Cleek
He thought to gripe her by the feet

13. He could nae gripe her by the feet
Her silken shoes they were sae, weet

14. He gat her griped by & by
And he laid her on a Dyke to dry

15. Her fathers fidler coming by
She spake unto him & did say

16. Gie my service to my father King
And likewise to my mother Queen

17. Gie my service to my Brother John
And likewise to my true love William

18. Gie my service to my sister Ann
And gar burn my sister Alison

19. When he to the gates did come
The fiddle began to play its lane

20. Gie my service to my father King
And likewise to my mother Queen

21. Gie my service to my brother John
And likewise to, my true love William

22 Gie my service to my sister Ann
Heigh & a gay & a grounding
But gar burn my sister Alison
At the bonny bowes of London
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 05:17 PM

Several more fine versions there - thanks Richie and Kevin.

I'm particularly interested in the Nora Hicks version, which strongly resembles that sung by Lee Monroe Presnell - who was of course part of the Beech Mountain clan and presumably the other NC source you mention. But Nora's has the individual strings of the fiddle giving voice, which is very rare in US variants.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 02:43 PM

Hi,

I've completed the rough draft of "Twa Sisters," thanks everyone for their help. It's here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british-and-other-versions--10-twa-sisters.aspx Comments welcome, I know there are minor errors.

Here's the ending section- Some Conclusions:

Some Conclusions
The ballad of the Twa Sisters is about the murder of the younger sister by an elder sister[37] over the affections of a man who courts them both and prefers the younger sister. Although jealousy is the motive there's a deeper additional motive of skin-color envy: the elder sister is dark skinned while the younger is fair skinned or white so the elder sister feels she can't compete for a groom with her younger sister. In the ur-ballad the elder sister's murder has given her sole access to their suitor, and they are to be married.

The ballad is about punishment or retribution for the crime of murder which, except for a confession from the elder sister, would not be solved. The retribution is made only through the supernatural resuscitation ending-- the dead sister speaks through a musical instrument with strings fashioned from her hair[38] and reveals the elder sister as the murderer. That this revelation occurs in some Scandinavian versions at the wedding of the elder sister with the younger sister's beloved is fitting. The punishment as ordered by the bridegroom: the elder sister is to be burned to death upon a pyre.

Paul Brewster who did the last detailed study of the ballad in 1953 believes the Marchen to be of Slavic origin. From the tale the ballad originated in Norway before 1600 then spread throughout Scandinavia. By the early 1600s the Two Sisters had spread to Scotland then England and Ireland where the miller (and mill dam) where added. In the UK The Twa Sisters emerged in different forms with different refrains. Two of the most popular variants lost the resuscitation ending:

1. the English "Bow Down" variant (Child Y), minus the resuscitation but with punishment, was brought to America in the mid-late 1700s. Although the miller finds the body, he is not the younger sister's love. The miller finds the younger sister in the water, robs her then pushes her back out into the water. The miller is hung (or burned) and the elder sister burned (or hung).
2. the Scottish "Binorie" variant (Child M), minus the resuscitation and punishment, was developed in Scotland in the last half of the 1700s. The miller laddie, though not at fault for the death of his beloved (the younger sister) sometimes dies at her funeral, presumably of a broken heart.

An early version of the English "Bow Down" variant with herb refrains and the missing resuscitation stanzas (my I form) was collected in America from the Hick-Harmon families. It's easy to imagine that this form existed before the short form (Child Y) was created and that the Child Y text originated from a ballad similar to the Hicks/Harmon ballad in England during the early to mid 1700s. In the new ballad represented by Child Y and the many versions of North America, the bow down refrains were inserted, the resuscitation stanzas were left off and a new short "punishement" ending replaced them.

Because most of the Maritime Canada versions have similar refrains to "Bows of London," it may be assumed they originated from the early Scottish variants first collected around 1770. The "Swan Swims Sae Bonny" refrain versions with resuscitation stanzas which Barry presumed to be Irish then Scottish (but they are both) were well known by the Scottish travelers in the 1900s. Carpenter collected an excellent version from Mary Robertson in the early 1930s and versions from the Whyte (White) and Stewart traveller families have been collected from the 1950s onward. Presumably the ballad is still sung traditionally among travellers as Elizabeth Stewarts version was recorded in 2004.

The ur-ballad has branched off from its Norse roots and taken different forms with a variety of refrains. In the versions with the resuscitation stanza the story has not changed much -- only missing the final scene at the wedding of the elder sister. The construction of the ur-ballad would necessarily include the courtship, the rejection of the elder sister because she is darker, the sisters going for a walk to the the sea brim (strand), the murder, the offers of the drowning girl to her older sister, the rejection of those offers, the drowning and recovery, the resuscitation of the younger sister at the wedding of the elder sister and their suitor, and finally, the punishment of the elder sister.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 04:49 PM

> The ur-ballad has branched off from its Norse roots and taken different forms with a variety of refrains.

It is a striking feature of this ballad just how different these forms and refrains are. AFAIK no other ballad comes close to having such a variety of forms. Several persons must have quite deliberately rebuilt this ballad at one time or another while keeping the same plot apart from the inclusion or exclusion of the resuscitation stanzas, either working from previous versions in English or perhaps making new translations from Scandinavian versions.

A few days ago I commented that Brian Miller's version was the first I have ever met where the dead girl's ghost instructs the musician to use parts of her body for his instrument, and where the elder sister's punishment is tit for tat: to be drowned. I am now reminded that this is Child O apart from the omission of a few verses and some other very minor changes.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Brian Peters
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 05:37 PM

"It is a striking feature of this ballad just how different these forms and refrains are."

Indeed, Richard.

"...the English "Bow Down" variant (Child Y), minus the resuscitation but with punishment, was brought to America in the mid-late 1700s"

That's what I've suspected for some time, Richie. Like many of the most popular Appalachian ballads, it most likely went over from England.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 08:00 PM

Hi Brian,

There are six Hicks/Harmon/Presnell versions with the herb/flower refrains-- all from the same family- three have the resuscitation stanzas (and another resuscitation version is from Jane Gentry's daughter, Maud Long, with additional stanzas of Jane Gentry's version). I've traced them back to Big Sammy Hicks from Fannie Hicks and separately from Council Harmon, who was Jane Gentry's grandfather and briefly lived with her. Council's son was the father of Samuel Harmon who moved to Tennessee. Council lived with Big Sammy when he was a child and his father was killed by a tree when Counce was about 7. His mother Sabra Hicks couldn't take care of her children and they stayed with Big Sammy,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 06:28 PM

Superb research, Richie!

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 09:40 AM

Richie,
I've just finished reading your article on Child 10, my hat's off to you, that was a wonderfully detailed account of the many different forms this ballad has taken in English language versions.

I'm curious about Maud Long's version, in your article you write that she sang a more complete version than Jane Hicks Gentry, containing stanzas that Cecil Sharp had missed, and that it also had the resuscitation ending.

However, looking at the text of Long's version as recorded by Moser:
http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/the-two-sisters--maud-long-nc-1955-rec-moser-

Her version does not have the instrument making stanzas, it ends with the miller being hanged. Is there another, more complete text of her version available?

I'm familiar with the recoding of Artus Moser singing the ballad as learned from Maud Long and it is the shorter text seen on your website.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 11:03 AM

"Is there another, more complete text of her version available?"

The Library of Congress appears to have a recording from 1947, presumably not made by Maud Karpeles, who visited Ms Long three years later. I'm sure Richie will be along soon to tell us.

Richie, what are the six Hicks/Harmon/Presnell versions? I know about Jane Gentry, Maud Long, Lee Monroe Presnell and now Nora Hicks - I can't see any more transcriptions on this thread.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 12:45 PM

Regarding Maud Long's different versions. I have examples of recording source singers who, when they were aware of collectors etc., becoming interested in their songs went to some lengths to add material from printed sources or from other versions. This is just a possibility with Maud Long's additions.