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is capitalism compatible with life on Earth

Workingtonman 24 May 18 - 05:04 AM
Bonzo3legs 24 May 18 - 05:18 AM
The Sandman 24 May 18 - 05:24 AM
Workingtonman 24 May 18 - 05:35 AM
GUEST 24 May 18 - 05:41 AM
Workingtonman 24 May 18 - 06:17 AM
Vic Smith 24 May 18 - 07:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 18 - 07:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 18 - 07:17 AM
GUEST,Modette 24 May 18 - 07:19 AM
GUEST,Modette 24 May 18 - 07:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 18 - 07:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 18 - 07:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 18 - 07:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 18 - 07:47 AM
Iains 24 May 18 - 07:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 May 18 - 07:58 AM
Iains 24 May 18 - 09:02 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 18 - 04:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 18 - 06:03 PM
robomatic 24 May 18 - 10:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 May 18 - 03:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 18 - 04:06 AM
Iains 25 May 18 - 04:34 AM
Stanron 25 May 18 - 07:13 AM
Iains 25 May 18 - 07:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 18 - 08:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 May 18 - 09:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 May 18 - 10:08 AM
Raedwulf 27 May 18 - 10:36 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 May 18 - 06:31 PM
Iains 28 May 18 - 09:25 AM
Nigel Parsons 29 May 18 - 08:32 AM
Jim Carroll 29 May 18 - 08:48 AM
Donuel 29 May 18 - 09:59 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 May 18 - 10:11 AM
Jim Carroll 29 May 18 - 10:45 AM
Donuel 29 May 18 - 12:50 PM
robomatic 29 May 18 - 01:10 PM
Jim Carroll 29 May 18 - 01:22 PM
Jim Carroll 29 May 18 - 01:22 PM
Donuel 29 May 18 - 02:51 PM
robomatic 29 May 18 - 03:12 PM
Jim Carroll 29 May 18 - 07:15 PM
robomatic 29 May 18 - 07:51 PM
bobad 29 May 18 - 10:07 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 18 - 02:48 AM
Iains 30 May 18 - 03:52 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 18 - 04:50 AM
robomatic 30 May 18 - 02:37 PM
Mr Red 30 May 18 - 02:56 PM
keberoxu 30 May 18 - 04:13 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 18 - 04:17 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 18 - 05:01 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 18 - 07:33 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 May 18 - 10:30 PM
Mr Red 31 May 18 - 03:29 AM
Nigel Parsons 31 May 18 - 09:58 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 18 - 10:46 AM
Nigel Parsons 31 May 18 - 11:42 AM
robomatic 31 May 18 - 04:10 PM
Donuel 01 Jun 18 - 12:41 PM
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Subject: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Workingtonman
Date: 24 May 18 - 05:04 AM

in today's guardian George Monbiot asks the question 'is capitalism compatible with life on Earth?' Obviously you would need to read the whole article (or at the very least the last paragraph)

i thought it was interesting and am inclined to think (as the article suggests) it's large scale and public-funded or subsided capitalism that is the prime offender. while it is obviously a utopian concept i thought it might take some discussion.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Ea
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 May 18 - 05:18 AM

The Guardian - perish the thought???


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Ea
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 18 - 05:24 AM

Bonzo shows pre judgement or prejudice before he has read the article


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Ea
From: Workingtonman
Date: 24 May 18 - 05:35 AM

could anyone provide the link, please? i'm nae good at this stuff


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Ea
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 18 - 05:41 AM

Peter,

George Monbiot's piece in today's Guardian is:

Enough of Carillion culture. Make bosses pay for the carnage they cause

Unless you mean last week's?

The UK government wants to put a price on nature – but that will destroy it.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Ea
From: Workingtonman
Date: 24 May 18 - 06:17 AM

thanks - i meant the 'carillion'.....one. though i'm sure the second is also relevant.

oh well, bonzo, never mind - you don't have to engage with any ideas you don't want to


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Ea
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 May 18 - 07:09 AM

The Guardian - perish the thought???
A rather sad, dismissive, intolerant comment, I would have thought about a newspaper that has been at the centre of successful investigative journalism in recent times; exposing foul an unlawful practices of both the left and the right.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Ea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 18 - 07:14 AM

Any examples Vic?


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Ea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 18 - 07:17 AM

MP's expenses? Telegraph.
Grooming gangs? Times.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Ea
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 24 May 18 - 07:19 AM

Windrush.
The Panama Papers.
Sexual abuse of young footballers.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Ea
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 24 May 18 - 07:22 AM

Gremfell.
Sorry, I meant Paradise Papers.
Carole Cadwalladr's investigations.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Ea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 18 - 07:27 AM

Both capitalism and communism are wedded to perpetual growth, which is unsustainable for life on a finite planet.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 18 - 07:40 AM

Windrush-BBC


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 18 - 07:42 AM

The Paradise Papers
are a set of 13.4 million confidential electronic documents relating to offshore investments that were leaked to the German reporters Frederik Obermaier and Bastian Obermayer[1] from the newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung. The newspaper shared them with the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists,[2] and a network of more than 380 journalists. Some of the details were made public on 5 November 2017 and stories are still being released.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 18 - 07:47 AM

Guardian Sept.2005
"Hundreds of cases of suspected child abuse in football and serious flaws in the way young players and fans are cared for will be exposed this week in a report on the treatment of children in soccer.
The report, compiled by the government-backed Independent Football Commission after an 18-month investigation, discloses that 250 suspected child abuse cases are being probed by the Football Association and that two more allegations are being investigated at Premiership clubs. It also reveals that a further four cases of suspected child abuse have been investigated at Premiership clubs since 2003."


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 18 - 07:51 AM

The chappie below admirably outlines the problem. Unfettered growth couple with burgeoning population will eventually collapse when the rape   of resources is complete or no longer economic. This is apart from degradation of climate and environment. The bus has no brakes and the wheels are about to fall off.


http://climateandcapitalism.com/2012/03/22/can-capitalism-cope-with-the-end-of-growth/


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 18 - 07:58 AM

Good article. I have said for as long as I can remember on here that neither capitalism nor communism work as the models that have been tried up to now. Unfortunately that means I am at odds with both capitalists and communists but I can live with that :-) I propose a system where the best ideas are taken from both ends of the spectrum and combined. What we would call it is neither here nor there but as both systems have a bad name we probably need to move away from both! I am a little surprosed that George Monbiot has tagged the excesses he descripes as just capitalism though. It was through his column that I learnt of neo-libralism. In my opinion that is a more accurate description of what is happening. Still, a rose by any other name would smell as rancid...

Sorry your thread has been shit on BTW. It has been moved to 'BS' so ill-meaning guests cannot post but that doesn't stop the thread wrecking members :-( I suspect that what should be a good discussion will now be ruined by the usual verbal acrobatics, demands for explanations, false indignation and just plain old abuse.

I can but live in the hope that I am wrong.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 18 - 09:02 AM

Another minor blip of never ending growth is the increasing use of rare earths in modern technology (turbines et alia) 90% of the economic resources are in China. In a post carbon, post oil world rare earths will become even more vital, unless science can make a quantum leap.

https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2014/3078/pdf/fs2014-3078.pdf


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 18 - 04:37 PM

Clearly the answer to the question is, not in the long run - and the long run is a very short one indeed now. Maybe two generations, with luck.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 18 - 06:03 PM

Thqe thing is, exploiting the environment, taking whatever resources there are and using them to get more out than you put in, is at the heart of capitalism.

That isn’t really the same in the case of socialism, which is crucially about distribution, with growth as such being relatively incidental - it's primarily more a way of easing problems about distribution. (And that was the key flaw in the State Socialist system that was referred to as "Communist", and was maybe more accurately called State Capitalism - its priority was on achieving growth at all costs.) And that's true about other non-socialist ways of organising society, growth is relatively incidental.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: robomatic
Date: 24 May 18 - 10:06 PM

The big issues are how to feed the planet, how to organize the planet, how to share resources, how to establish and maintain values that lead to the former.

Capitalism is, ideally, about free markets and the freedom of citizens to compete in those markets, be it manufacture, agriculture, or services.

If you want to talk about depradation of the environment, that's a tall order with many perpetrators at all levels and types of social and economic environments, from the wandering soldiers of Africa shooting down elephants and rhinos with their AK47s for the ivory and horn markets of Asia, to the unbridled power of state dictators who have initiated projects such as the Three Gorges Dam, the evaporation of large freshwater lakes, and the totalitarian states' power to limit the formation and activities of organized environmentalists.

In general, life on Earth goes on no matter what. Over its growing presence in every aspect of nature, the human race alters the various balances. Those balances happen regardless, but it is judgment that determines the values in human terms to put on those changes and the commitment of our resources to address those changes.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 18 - 03:59 AM

The basic economic question is how to fulfill unlimited wants with limited means. It is impossible of course but by careful manipulation of the resources some systems will always fare better than others. The resources available to us are labour, natural resources and, questionably, capital and they are the basis for one side of the economic equation. I say questionably because when one thinks of capital nowadays that equates to money which is a man made concept and need not exist. However, something has to exist as a form of trade and someone needs to bring the other 2 resources together so when I refer to capital I am referring to a means to do that, whether that is money or some other mechanism.

The other side of the equation will be output for wants and needs, which can also be manipulated in their own right. What we are seeing with the upsurge of neo-libralism is the generation of needless wants to maintain the revenue generated by the capitalists. Bringing together the elements required to produce is not a bad thing but maintaining this false growth in things that are not necessary is probably the first thing that needs to go. We know ourselves, from our own budgeting, that needs must always come first. Much of the output generated now is not for needs but for needlessly generated wants.

I could go into far more detail but we would then be in the realms of economics text books and I am sure you do not all want to be bored with the ways and means of adjusting all the sides of that equation. I shall only say that an equation must always do at least one thing. Be equal on both sides. If we cannot rely on resources going in, the output coming out must be curtailed. i will also add that entrepreneurship is a good thing and should not be equated to the rampant neo-liberal capitalism we are seeing now. In other words, not all bosses are bad :-) My hope is that there will be more like Elon Musk who seem to have a good handle on the whole picture.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 18 - 04:06 AM

Entrepreneurs will always want to sell more stuff to more people while the stuff lasts.

The rest of the world aspires to our lifestyle, but the world's resources can not supply it to more than a few of us.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 18 - 04:34 AM

Capitalism requires growth. Resources are finite. A crash is inevitable.
Previously there were new places to conquer and resources to exploit.
Now the game has changed, there are no new frontiers.
Our modern capitalism is in reality no different to the old slash and burn of primitive agriculture. Find a resource, exploit it and move to the next. Today the additional complications are pressure of population which means that exploitation is on a vast scale. In the past the associated small scale environmental degradation could be tolerated, but today such degradation is on too vast a scale, and impacts too many people, to continue unchallenged. The real elephant in the room is of course the scale of modern capitalism, and that is because there are simply too many of us.
Like it or not, we are simply lemmings running headlong towards the cliff that we know is in front of us. The population overshoot will be distinctly untidy. There is no point in discussing capitalism and it's place in the modern world without considering the population density that dictates it's scale.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Stanron
Date: 25 May 18 - 07:13 AM

Iains wrote: Capitalism requires growth. Resources are finite. A crash is inevitable.

I can see the theory behind this but in reality imagination spots opportunities, opportunities become new products/markets and these new products/markets can grow. Old ones die off and recycling their detrious becomes new industry in itself. This is an industry analogue of biological life as we know it.

I agree that there are too many humans on the planet and if we don't intervene ourselves forces outside our influence will. Maybe diseaase, maybe ecological collapse or the planet gets cleared to make way for an Inter-Galactic Superhighway. Whichever it turns out to be I'll probably be long gone.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 18 - 07:39 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Limits_to_Growth

The arguments were outlined many years ago. Many discounted it as scaremongering and pointed to the predictions of Malthus and how advances had negated his basic premise.
So far advanced technology has saved out collective ass. However food and water are essentials, technology is merely desirable. When environmental degradation meets with climate change, water shortages and reduced crop yields then no amount of fancy footwork will square the circle. Population will plummet. Then the survivors can carry out the same mistakes all over again.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 18 - 08:36 AM

The survivors will find that difficult.
All the easily available resources have gone. There will never be another industrial civilisation on this planet.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 May 18 - 09:53 AM

There should never be a shortage of water as it is the perfect recyclable resource. It is of course often in the wrong place or the wrong state!


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 18 - 10:08 AM

Supplying sufficient drinking water is a very serious problem for many people, and getting worse.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Raedwulf
Date: 27 May 18 - 10:36 AM

Keith - "Both capitalism and communism are wedded to perpetual growth." I don't see how communism is wedded to perpetual growth. Certainly in practice, communism tends to promote a state of stagnation & non-growth. Explain?

DavetG - "...he describes as just capitalism though. It was through his column that I learnt of neo-liberalism." Possibly because you're still thinking in terms of an X axis only, as many still do, unaware that a Y axis is needed to make proper sense of various political / economic philosophies? Capitalism is typically seen as an E / right wing position. The N/S axis is Authoritarian / Libertarian. Full on free market capitalism is a long way SE of centre; it's a long way Libertarian ("don't interfere with me; don't restrict me with red tape & rules, I should be allowed to do what I want") as well as being a long way right.

IainS - You're correct that the majority of economic rare earth deposits are in China. But, if memory serves, rare earths aren't actually that rare! They're just difficult to identify & separate (mostly because they have similar chemical properties). As Stanron said above, such things are simply a technological challenge and, no doubt, someone will eventually come up with better tech...


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 18 - 06:31 PM

Shortages of highly valued rare earths and so forth needing be a block on expansion - within a couple of decades we can expect to see asteroid mining, and there are believed to be ample sources of those available.

The resources that are a lot harder to ensure their being available are such things as breathable air and drinkable water, and generally a human viable environment.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Iains
Date: 28 May 18 - 09:25 AM

Raedwulf You are correct the distribution of rare earths is worldwide.
I can remember monazite being a common accesory mineral from my optical petrology days at college. The main problem is a minimum concentration to make mining viable. That is why many occurrences are as placer deposits. The Allihies beara carbonatite sw Irelaand has a minor enrichment in REE, as do the Silurian alkaline igneous intrusions of NW Scotland. There are other occurrences in the UK and Ireland, but as yet none are commercial.
There are 17 rare earth elements and although, they may be fairly abundant in the Earth's crust, often they occur at sparse intervals and are less economically exploitable. The current price of Yttrium oxide is about 54%/kilo. That price dictates the economic feasibility of exploitation for any deposit of that rare earth. The fact many of these deposits are also in environmentally sensitive areas also places severe constraints against their future exploitation. Having had one career path abruptly terminated by this very fact in the early 70's, I can speak with firsthand experience.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 May 18 - 08:32 AM

"Is capitalism compatible with life on earth?"

Yes.


Whether continuing capitalist systems will be compatible with the long term continuance of life on earth may be a much more complex question.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 08:48 AM

This, from this morning’s Times, provides a stark warning that capitalism most certainly is not compatible with life on Earth
Read it and weep
Jim Carroll

RAINFOREST UNDER THREAT FROM OIL DEAL
Democratic Republic of Congo Jane Flanagan Cape Town
The disputed president of the Demo¬cratic Republic of Congo has signed over the rights to drill for oil in Africa’s largest rainforest to a consortium with links to the Channel Islands.
The $3 million deal, the details of which have not been made public, risks violence in one of the most lawless re¬gions of the country.
One of three oil prospecting conces¬sions allocated to Compagnies Miniè¬res Congolaise (Comico) encroaches on the Salonga National Park, the most remote nature reserve on earth and home to several endangered species, including the bonobo, one of the great apes. There are fears that drilling in Sal¬onga, a 14,000 sq m Unesco world heri¬tage site, would put its delicate eco-sys- tem at risk and make conflict more like¬ly in the absence of effective policing.
President Kabila, who flouted the constitution when he refused to stand down at the end of his second term in 2016, rubber-stamped the deal with Comico — one of whose main stake¬holders is registered in Guernsey — in February, 11 years after the rights were awarded. His government is obliged to publish details but is yet to do so, ac-cording to Global Witness, an anti¬corruption watchdog based in London.
Exploration licences have also been signed for a fifth of the Virunga National Park, on the DRC’s eastern border. Militia groups fight for the park’s resources and, recently, oil pros¬pecting concessions. Two British doc¬tors were kidnapped there this month.
The DRC produces about 22,500 barrels of oil a day, but industry analysts speculate that it could hold 6 per cent of Africa’s oil reserves.
Both parks’ protected status and boundaries will have to be amended before any drilling can go ahead. Aimé Ngoy Mukena, the DRC’s oil minister, said the law made provision for excep¬tions for agreements between the gov¬ernment and oil companies if an area “presents an economic interest”.
No exploration licences have been awarded in the past eight years, so the revival of old deals has led to specula¬tion that Mr Kabila is keen to amass funds before the overdue elections he has pledged to stage in December.
The World Wildlife Fund, the co¬manager of Salonga, expressed its “great astonishment and disappoint¬ment” at the government’s decision, warning that oil exploration “repre¬sents a real danger for the exceptional flora and fauna of this ecosystem”.
Jean-Luc Blakey, who investigated the deal for Global Witness, said: “Un¬esco world heritage sites make up a tiny fraction of the earth’s surface, yet even these few precious areas are being ex¬posed to the risks posed by oil explora¬tion and exploitation.”

Behind the story
Centrale Oil and Gas, registered in Guernsey, has a 40 per cent stake in Comico, the shares of which are held by Adonis Pouroulis, the South African diamond magnate, and his
family (Jane Flanagan writes). Mr Pouroulis also owns one share in Comico directly.
Centrale Oil & Gas bought into Comico in 2010. According to Global Witness, Comico was formed in 2006 by ïdalécio de Oliveira, of Portugal,
who held a 25 per cent personal stake and 45 per cent via one of his bases in the British Virgin Islands, and Montfort Konzi, a former Congolese politician with 30 per cent. Other offshore entities bought into Comico later.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Donuel
Date: 29 May 18 - 09:59 AM

While Doomsday is proceeding with cautious optimism, life as we know it in general, has no example of going on endlessly. At least not in this solar system. Is Earth an exception? No. Everything is finite.


Evolution has reached a certain level of efficiency in the chemical transference of energy to another organism via eating and digestion or for stationary flora enhancing the chemical process with solar energy.


What I'm getting at is that the most efficiency we can ever expect from the best possible economic system will probably be no more efficient than Earth's evolved 3 billion year old living systems. The system will have to be synergistic. And as most have pointed out, continual unlimited growth will always be stopped by other factors.


So even an ideal system that destroys/exploits the environment the least is still mortal. Best to just enjoy the ride while it is still here.

That's why Elon Musk wants to blow this pop stand. :^/


or will fusion or 'dimensional dark energy' discoveries change the equation?


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 May 18 - 10:11 AM

I can't get too concerned about what happens in three billion years or so.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 10:45 AM

What with selling weapons to countries involved involved in wars with famine-devestated people like the Yemenis and leaving victims of devastating fires to sleep in church halls rather than allow them to use empty property,   I think it is rapidly becoming a question of whether Capitalism is compatible with HUMAN LIFE
We have a political group here in Ireland which calls itself "People before Profit" - if only !!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Donuel
Date: 29 May 18 - 12:50 PM

If you are 100% determined and sincere about severing all ties with capitalism you should not; pay your taxes, undertake debt or support a capitalist candidate. Instead you should attack Wall Street... oh wait didn't Bin Laden already do that?


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: robomatic
Date: 29 May 18 - 01:10 PM

I seem to recall the Soviet Union designing the premiere assault rifle and then manufacturing and licensing them by the millions .

Perhaps you might think they're doing their best to control world population.

As for hewing down woods or polluting the land, I already mentioned the Three Gorges dam. I withheld mentioning the service to the world provided by the former USSR in preserving nature in the Ukraine by rendering it radioactive .

I don't have written documentation but I personally remember when a Soviet Russian delegation of their oil development commissars, visiting the oilfields in Alaska, asked the local pipeline executives what percentage of oil was leaked out of the trans-Alaska pipeline. They were told 'zero'. They flatly did not believe it. Obviously back in the oilfields of north Russia and Siberia, there was a constant level of tolerable pollution going on unchecked.

The story is an old one, and has not changed. If there are controls on executive power, and they are in place, standards can be maintaine. When power is not subject to oversight or regulations, then responsibility goes by the boards. The name of the system is irrelevant.

But, historically, the Communist and Fascist systems have in common that authority has been essentially limitless. That is why when the authority is coherent, things get down in a hurry if not very well, and when the authority is heedless, things go to hell in a hurry.

As an example, when the human tragedy of Venezuela gets comprehended, it will turn out to be an environmental disaster as well.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 01:22 PM

"I seem to recall the Soviet Union designing the premiere assault rifle and then manufacturing and licensing them by the millions .E
Fine pointing aaat the Soviet Union and ignoring Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Viet Nam
and the number being wiped out daily on the streets of aAmerica as we speak
I don't think pointing fingers is helping here - wasn't it Donald Duck who scrapped any attempts to clean up the environment?
Stop trying to score points and face theeee fact that all govenments have been responsible for the shit-hole our planet has now become
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 01:22 PM

"I seem to recall the Soviet Union designing the premiere assault rifle and then manufacturing and licensing them by the millions .E
Fine pointing aaat the Soviet Union and ignoring Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Viet Nam
and the number being wiped out daily on the streets of aAmerica as we speak
I don't think pointing fingers is helping here - wasn't it Donald Duck who scrapped any attempts to clean up the environment?
Stop trying to score points and face theeee fact that all govenments have been responsible for the shit-hole our planet has now become
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Donuel
Date: 29 May 18 - 02:51 PM

Borders do not make evil greedy environment killers

the love of money does and the lazy comfort that money buys

I personally enjoy the examples robo recounts. There are cities in the former USSR that have been erased by radiation other than Ukraine's Chernobyl.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: robomatic
Date: 29 May 18 - 03:12 PM

Yeah, in the (former) USSR there were some towns shaken up by nuclear testing.

Hey JW, stop taking it so personally. My point was a general one about the fallout (non-nuclear, this time) from the abuse of power. Again, it doesn't matter what you call the system. Stalin or Hitler. Lots of people die when from the order-givers to the policy makers to the executioners, there is not accountability.

"Shitholes" LOL. You and Trump.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:15 PM

"Hey JW,"
I assume you mean JC
I had little time for the Soviet Union as it finally became, thanks to Stalin but it did offer the possibility of change
Your people only offer more of the same - a world where the trade of weapons becomes an essential part of the economy and ecology is sacrificed on the altar of the SUV
Trump is the high-priest of that particular religion
Can you honesty claim that this planet is in safe hands with him at the head
IF THIS ISN@T THE SIGN OF A SICK SOCIETY I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS
You appear to live in a society obsesssed with death and the profit and pleasure it brings to the few
NOTHING TO BE PROUD OF HERE EITHER
Time you people stopped fighting the Cold War and came to terms with the consequences of your own behaviour, donch'a think!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: robomatic
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:51 PM

JC:

I apologize. Of course I meant JC but my mind is a steel - - - sieve.

I had a substitute teacher in English who taught us grammer using such test sentences to parse as: "We are living in a sick society." So I've been exposed to dire projections for some little while.

I'm not sure what you mean by "your people" and "you people" You've fallen into that habit in more than one thread.

Have you caught that recent film "The Death of Stalin"? I think it is English. It certainly has some top drawer English acting talent in it.

Again, my general point is about power with no limits. The Cold War gives us some great examples, as does WWII, WWI, Korea, and more recently, Crimea.

So does what's been going on in Venezuela, the Philippines, Poland, Hungary, the former Soviet Union, and unfortunately quite a few other countries. For instance, CHINA.

I'm going to go a bit more general and say that most democracy obsessed Westerners such as myself have a soft spot for capitalism in the sense that in the free market of ideas (products) we can vote (buy) for our preference with the franchise (dollars).

It doesn't take a genius to make the point that you can have a socialist society with democratic institutions, and you can have a capitalist society in a dictat.

And environmentalism is not guaranteed by any of those populations. Particularly during the Cold War we had two extremely different societies each with a many-times overload of nuclear weapons. A nuclear holocasust wouldn't have ended all life on earth, it would have changed the balance. But I don't think any of us would have regarded that as an improvement unless you're keen on those radioactive wolves mentioned above. And I have a soft spot for insects and reptiles, certain planaria and of course tardigrades.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 18 - 10:07 PM

One thing that's certain is that being a journalist and being critical of Putin is not compatible with life in Russia.

Prominent Russian Journalist and Putin Critic Gunned Down in Kiev


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:48 AM

"One thing that's certain is that being a journalist and being critical of Putin is not compatible with life in Russia."
Is ny of this relevnt to the damage being done to the planet
Beyond me if it is
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 03:52 AM

is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
Short answer: NO

Long answer: below

https://e360.yale.edu/features/global_extinction_rates_why_do_estimates_vary_so_wildly


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:50 AM

NATURE FIGHTS BACK
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: robomatic
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:37 PM

And a 'dead' journalist gored an assassination plot


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:56 PM

the planet will survive.

homo sapiens, won't.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:13 PM

There is a lot of science-fiction writing published out there
which concurs with your opinion.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:17 PM

I'm sure our Jim will not mind me using his name in vain while paraphrasing Bones

Life could survive, Jim, but not as we know it...


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 05:01 PM

"There is a lot of science-fiction writing published out there"
The existence of the Tumps of this world now make it possibl
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 07:33 PM

"Life could survive, Jim, but not as we know it..."
Beam me up Davy
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 18 - 10:30 PM

I just rewatched the early 70s Movie "Soylent Green" [No spoilers please... in case anyone has never seen it]

the book was written mid 1960s...

For the most part this film isn't too badly dated* and still acutely relevant...

The near future [ 2022 ] it predicts, is grim to say the least...



[* but the aspects that are dated, are hilariously cack...]


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 May 18 - 03:29 AM

[No spoilers please... in case anyone has never seen it]

Hint: it is always the butler wot dun it!







Until the last paragraph...............


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 18 - 09:58 AM

Accepting the request for no spoilers here, the spoilers (for Soylent Green) can be found Here in song form.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 10:46 AM

"Spoilers"
A little like Alexi Sayle who said he took great pleasure in walking along the queue of people waiting to go in to see The Mousetrap' and accouncing loudly who did it
Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 18 - 11:42 AM

Ah yes, but did he give them the genuine answer?
And did they believe him before the play got to its resolution? (whether he was right or not)


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: robomatic
Date: 31 May 18 - 04:10 PM

You'd think in the future that there'd at least be some spuds to go with the soylent green and some nice plonk to down it wash with.


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 12:41 PM

We have a multitude of new food systems but we still waste $50 billion worth of food each year.

What's the answer? Capitalism? Giant doggy bags?


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 12:14 PM

How about inviting me to dinner ?
Happy to do my bit
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: is capitalism compatible with life on Earth
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 10:04 PM

I'm reminded of some story or tv or radio show where someone ends up eating himself in stages. OMG I think it was a Halloween Simpsons.


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