BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns

Subject: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 18 - 12:13 PM

Ken has spent almost all his adult life in London Labour politics.
He overcame opposition within the party to be the Labour candidate for Mayor of London and won the following mayoral election with ease. Blair said he would be “a disaster” but in fact Livingstone ran London pragmatically and he was returned to the Labour fold to win again in 2004.

His departure should not pass without comment.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 18 - 12:21 PM

...and guess who most felt need to comment...

happy now...???


THE END....

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 May 18 - 12:29 PM

Good riddance

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: bobad
Date: 24 May 18 - 01:22 PM

Hitler was a Zionist lol.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 18 - 02:24 PM

Sad it ended this way. I met a lot of the older generation of Londoners who liked him and voted for him and thought that he had fought for them and their rights.

The left wing orthodoxies of the day are so obviously bollocks, that you have to be a wizard of equivocation like Corbyn to sit astride the contradictions.

Ken's always been better with lizards than dealing with hypocrites.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 18 - 02:48 PM

Did it have to end this way?
He has so much support among the membership he could have made a stand against his accusers.

He used to have supporters here, yet now they are silent.
Perhaps they are ashamed of him now.

If that is a sign of a lessening of the ideological divide, that could be a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 18 - 03:05 PM

"silent"...???

sigh... if only someone else had started this thread...

Please remember that just because there is an absence of challenge to your prejudiced assertions,
from other mudcatters with sterner resolve than me,
this does not indicate that you are right....

More sensible folks simply do not want to waste time and energy talking to you...

..or even acknowledge your existence...


Sad... but understandable why lesser men would have been sick to death with false accusations
and thrown in the towel long before Ken has...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 18 - 03:21 PM

its not shame.
its accepting the fact that the present orthodoxy that Palestinians are good, and Israelis are bad. I get three or four messages on facebook to that effect every day on facebook.

Ken has always cosied up to the terrorist (freedom fighter) groups who are villified in the right wing press. In many ways he is the progenitor /Godfather of all these fb message senders.

JC needs to be acceptable to the USA if he's going to be PM.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 18 - 05:01 PM

Ken's statement said all that anyone needs to know. He resigned so as not to detract from the bigger issues facing Corbyn such as getting the Tories out. I am sure that when that is achieved he will be back.

Why on earth would Corbyn have to be acceptable to the likes of Trump, Al? Seems an odd hurdle to put in his path!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 18 - 05:08 PM

Was Trump acceptable to the UK?i don't know anyone in The Real World who would give him the time of day.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 May 18 - 05:56 PM

Just listen to his own well reasoned explanation of why he resigned.

The statement he made about Hitler encouraging one aspect of Zionist policy was historically correct.

It was not the same as saying Hitler was a Zionist - their objectives just happened to coincide at this point.

Anti - Zionist is not the same as anti-Semitic otherwise it not permissible impossible to criticise the actions of the Israeli government.

All this hyped up by the media as an indirect way of attacking Corbyn.

On the other side of the coin it is completely out of order to attack Jewish people for the actions on their government (which many disapprove of).

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: bobad
Date: 24 May 18 - 06:13 PM

Gee, someone who is totally clueless about Zionism is an apologist for an anti-Semite, why are we not surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 18 - 06:19 PM

...and it starts...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 18 - 06:32 PM

maybe i'm wrong. but i think that's what its about.
the USA is invariably and unreservedly pro-Israel.

Labour got their knuckles grazed not supporting the Vietnam war. Blair the only really successful Labour PM since Wilson learned from that, and supported USA foreign policy.

I imagine that is what is running through Corbyn's mind. Wilson ended up with his own security services plotting against him, and committing acts of sabotage. Corbyn has a tightrope to walk that tories don't. there isn't an anti -US/Israel faction in the tory party.

Like I say - I could easily be misjudging the situation. But to me, it seems logical.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 18 - 06:36 PM

The thing is, there was always from as early as the late 19th century a strain of antisemitism that took the line "the trouble with Jews is they just don't belong here - what they need is a homeland of their own, out in Palestine or Africa or somewhere".

Calling that "Zionism" isn't accurate, but it was part of the environment that led to the Balfour Declaration. In Germany it fed into Nazi anti-semitism. Ken's sound bite about Hitler that got him into trouble was a gross and tactless oversimplification, but it had a core of truth - and it was not in any real sense anti-Semitic.

But in the cynical world of politics it was sensible of Ken to pull stumps. He was on to a loser trying to fight it out, and was threatening the very things he has always genuinely supported.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 18 - 06:53 PM

It is commendable that Ken is an honourable man who has accepted his unjust sacrifice for the greater good of party and nation...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: bobad
Date: 24 May 18 - 07:00 PM

The statement “Hitler supported Zionism” is not a fact. It’s an interpretation. An interpretation of a particular historical moment, in the 1930s, when the forced emigration of Jews from Germany was pushed further along by various Nazi economic incentives allowing those who fled to Palestine to get some of their stolen assets back.

That is not Adolf Hitler supporting the idea of a Jewish state (even writing that sentence looks ridiculous). It is the Nazis taking advantage of the terror and despair of fleeing refugees to get more of them to leave the country. It is just the thin edge of the wedge of Nazi horror.

The real problem, in a way, is the tone of Livingstone when giving this interpretation. There’s no sympathy. No compassion – no sense of the tragedy behind this. It’s just complacently presented as a deal that Hitler made with German Zionists, and therefore – and this, of course, is the point, the banal, shit point – a way of confirming that Zionism is bad. Through an association with the top bad thing, Hitler.

David Baddiel in The Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: bobad
Date: 24 May 18 - 07:16 PM

Sean O'Grady, writing in the Independent, says that judging by his memoirs alone Livingstone should have been thrown out of the Labour Party. In his book, among other things, he seems to imply that Israel's birth was not legitimate – and if its birth was not legitimate, how can it be legitimate now, a sentiment which of course the Labour Party considers to be anti-Semitic as it is cited as being such in the commonly accepted IHRA definition adopted by the party.

Sean O'Grady in the Independent

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 18 - 02:32 AM

Can I make a proposal before this subject is wasted
I have no intention of entering one of Keith's Alice in Wonderland Rabbit Holes ever again, but this subject is far too important to be drifted into as it is at present and there are far too many people steering clear of it because of his involvement who I know are capable of raising the level of discussion above "the silence of decent democratic countries" idoiocy
Embarking on such a mind-numbing exercise at that level is bound end up in closure and yet another no-go area
If the other "decent, democratic" people on this forum are prepared to attempt to avoid Keith's rabbit-holes, I most certainly am
Jim Carroll
Incidentally
HAAVARA AGREEMENT
The agreement was controversial both within the NSDAP and in the Zionist movement. As historian Edwin Black put it, "The Transfer Agreement tore the Jewish world apart, turning leader against leader, threatening rebellion and even assassination."[23] Opposition came in particular from the mainstream US leadership of the World Zionist Congress, in particular Abba Hillel Silver and American Jewish Congress president Rabbi Stephen Wise.[24] Wise and other leaders of the Anti-Nazi boycott of 1933 argued against the agreement, narrowly failing to persuade the Nineteenth Zionist Congress in August 1935 to vote against it.[23]
The right-wing Revisionist Zionists and their leader Vladimir Jabotinsky were even more vocal in their opposition.[25] The Revisionist newspaper in Palestine, Hazit Haam published a sharp denunciation of those involved in the agreement as "betrayers", and shortly afterwards one of the negotiators, Haim Arlosoroff was assassinated.[23]
Ken Livingstone spoke the truth - he is no more an Antisemite than Mad Maggie Thatcher was a Liberal Humanist - nor is the Labour Paty an antisemitic party - that is the philosophy of the right (we have a few examples on this forum, as has been shown

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 May 18 - 02:37 AM

Good riddance!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 18 - 02:48 AM

Can a moderator rid this forum of this mindless troll please
They've put far more articulate members on the 'naughty step' - what makes this one fireproof?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 May 18 - 04:03 AM

It would have been more accurate to say that some Zionists were Hitlerites than the other way round. Avraham Stern did try to form an anti-British alliance with the Nazis, and the reason it didn't work out was not because he thought better of it.

There can never be anything legitimate about founding a state on expropriated territory. Of course the state of Israel has no right to exist. Neither does its main promoter, the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 18 - 04:27 AM

PFR,
sigh... if only someone else had started this thread...

I gave you all two days before jumping in.
You were clearly all going to allow the passing of someone who has been a Left Wing icon for as long as I can remember to go without mention.
What were you afraid of, and what is your objection?

getting the Tories out. I am sure that when that is achieved he will be back.

He is 73 this year Dave.

It is commendable that Ken is an honourable man who has accepted his unjust sacrifice for the greater good of party and nation...

Why has his party done it if it is unjust?
Are you saying the party is wrong and not Ken?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 18 - 04:48 AM

Don't rise to Keith's twaddle PFR - it really is pissing in the wind
He's lying about "giving you all two days before jumping in."
He forgot that he told us he was going to be away - he can't even remember what he wrote
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 18 - 04:55 AM

He's lying about "giving you all two days before jumping in."
He forgot that he told us he was going to be away - he can't even remember what he wrote

I do not lie Jim.
I expected to see a thread on my return 2 days after the event.
I then posted for another 5 hours before starting this thread.

You were clearly all going to allow the passing of someone who has been a Left Wing icon for as long as I can remember to go without mention.

What were you afraid of, and what is your objection to me marking the event?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 18 - 05:20 AM

"What were you afraid of, "
You and your pro-Israeli extremists have made any discussion a no-go area
Personally, rather than relying on the bumwipe press shite, I much preferred to wait and see if anything new had been produced
Livingstone has reiterated his belief in the statement he made on the co-operation between the Zionists and the Nazis and he was right to do so
He also said he was resigning for the good of his party - a lessong to be learned by all those politicians who have "stood by" the rapists and molesters and pilferers of the taxpayers money thst you and your party have defended before they were exposed for what they really were
What needs to be discussed is not Livingstone's resignation (that speaks for itself), but the the fact that a terrorist state that has recently massacred over 100 protesters in cold blood is interfering in British politics.
THat is what I propose should be discussed here if the "decent democratic" posters are willing to do so
In which case, you would really be "not wanted on voyage" - we could write all your responses in advance - it would only take four short words "Israel didn't do it"
Go talk to somebody else (Bozo maybe - he's about your level)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 18 - 05:24 AM

Strange world...!!!??

It seems we 'far left extremists' [ keef speak for 'slightly left of centre moderates' ]

are far less obsessed with Left wing icons than he is...!!??????


yeah... life goes on... with or without Ken...

Hope he enjoys his 'retirement'...

It's just sad he was forced to retire earlier than he might have wanted
by false accusations of malevolent enemies and treacherously complicit 'comrades'.....

On BBC news, an elder lady Jewish supporter of Labour protested that it was a disgrace
that Ken should be so badly let down by their Party;
so cowardly in failing to back him up against his false accusers...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 18 - 05:33 AM

Jim, this is not about Israel or me!
You are obsessed.

PFR,
Yes I am gobsmacked that our far-Left Wing group, which usually dominates all debate here, fell silent on this issue concerning one of their own.

false accusations of malevolent enemies

What false accusations? If they were false his hearing would have thrown them out.

so cowardly in failing to back him up against his false accusers...
They did back him up. They did not eject him, they only suspended him pending a full, fair hearing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 18 - 05:52 AM

At least I'll give Bonzo credit for being up front and bluntly honest in his intense dislike for Labour...

Unlike K****'s convoluted slithery smarminess...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 May 18 - 05:58 AM

Funny thing is, we were hoodwinked to vote for Blair in 1997!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 18 - 05:58 AM

I do not have an intense dislike for Labour.
I was a Labour voter and hope to be again.

Why do you insist on trying to make all debate personal. This is not about me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 18 - 06:32 AM

It was obvious that the thread was started to raise the issue of antisemitism in the Labour party. Again. As if that had not already been done to death and soundly dealt with umpteen times before. When it move in that direction, as it inevitably will, I am sure it will be dead in the water before long. It is probably best just to stick to the issue of Ken Livingstone who, as far as I can tell, has been entirely honourable in his resignation. Why anyone would want to start a thread on it is beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 May 18 - 06:37 AM

That's the trouble Keith. It is all about you.

It would be nice to have a debate on this subject, because there have opinions expressed here that I passionately disagree with.

However it always seems to degenerate into a weird shit slinging match.

The Ist world War, The IRA, Jeremy Corbyn....whatever the subject.

I remember Christopher Isherwood said about the surrealist phase of Edward Upward's writing, whatever the subject, whatever the characters - he always seemed to be in the same landscape.

theres a certain deja vu. Whatever we say in this in this conversation - its going to be ignored while you slug it out.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: bobad
Date: 25 May 18 - 06:45 AM

Al, it seems to me that Keith made it about Livingstone, it's the usual suspects that are making it about Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 18 - 07:02 AM

" its going to be ignored while you slug it out."
I totally agree Al - until Keith's fanatical and irrational hatred of anything vaguely left, vaguely critical of Britain and everything foreign these discussions will get nowhere - unless we ignore him and let him rant away in his corner
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 18 - 07:04 AM

I find his arguments quite well constructed and informative!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 May 18 - 07:08 AM

Al, you forgot about 'culturally-implanted predilection for under-age girls in British-Pakistani men'.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 May 18 - 07:14 AM

That's because there's a certain predictability about Keith point of view, which is , how shall we put it.......supportive of extremely dodgy right wing factions....check out the admiration for !st world war generals, who got lots of ordinary herberts like us murdered.

People get the feeling that this right wing animus is firing the engine. Briefly put that's the beef with Keith.

My beef with the people who deny the legitimacy of the state of Egypt is to point out that the Arab people own nearly all the oil wealth in the world. They have enough wealth to provide decent housing, education, food, industry , jobs, cultural opportunities for their people. The rest of the world has minimal oil.

But the point is , they don't. They resent the shitty bit of land alloted to Jews afer the horrors of the second world war.

They have corrupt monarchies supported by a corrupt religion - until they sort it out like we did with Charles I - they're fucked. The sickening tendency of sections of the Labour Party to pretend to empathise with terrorists and suicide bombers is just typical of the cowards who always side with the bullies.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 18 - 07:36 AM

I do not support anything Right Wing Al, and the ordinary Herberts overwhelmingly believed in the war they fought, and while critical of their leaders also held them in great esteem.

Dave,
It was obvious that the thread was started to raise the issue of antisemitism in the Labour party. Again.

No, it is you who were too afraid of that subject to commemorate the passing of an iconic Labour hero.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 18 - 07:41 AM

"I find his arguments quite well constructed and informative!"
I have no doubt you do - I'm sure Guido Fawkes would as well
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 18 - 07:47 AM

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

Just thought it was worth reminding people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 18 - 08:01 AM

Dave, your silly little mantra is no more relevant to Jim than to anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 May 18 - 08:08 AM

all i can say is - you're easily overwhelmed Keith.

in my experience of that generation - everything about the way they were treated pissed them off.

there is a great deal of international disquiet about the way Israel polices its borders.

Ken is collateral damage.

The hatred of Israel a denial of its right to exist is another issue.
I can't work up much enthusiasm for Israel's many enemies. Their track record of setting up decent humane governments is not good.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 18 - 08:32 AM

The hatred of Israel a denial of its right to exist is another issue.

It is the issue that led to the fall of Ken.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 18 - 08:35 AM

"Of course the state of Israel has no right to exist."

I don't agree with this. Whatever you think of what happened seventy years ago, Israel is not just a slab of land. It's the home of eight million souls, most of whom were born there, who couldn't help being born there. Yes the Israeli regime is a monster. Land is stolen for illegal settlements, a determined effort is being made by the regime to undermine any chance of a two-state solution, Palestinians are discriminated against and Gaza has been turned into a besieged hellhole. All these things are supported unconditionally by the US with the connivance of other western countries. That's what is wrong and we should fearlessly address these things, but we can do that without wrongheadedly denying the right of Israel to exist. There's no going back on that basic point any more.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 18 - 08:39 AM

Feel free to start a thread about Israel Steve, but this one is dedicated to Ken Livingstone.

Anything to say about his resignation Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 18 - 08:40 AM

Can we move on please
I've been doing a little research into the history of these accusations
They started around the time Peter Hain began questioning the rise of right-wing Zionism in Israel - at no time were they ever associated with attacks on the Jewish People - that came in 2015 when politicians began to oppose what was happening in Gaza
The present attacks, specifically referring to "antisemitism" date back to Corbyn's statemant the he supported the Palestinian cause against land seizure
Corbyn made his statement; within a month a 'Labour Friends of Israel' meeting was hosted by Netanyahu in Israel and almost immediately on their return accusations began to emerge of an "Antisemitism problem"
The main sources of these were Jewish Parliamentary supporters of Israel joined by right wing 'New Labour' opponents of Corbyn's left wing policies
It transpires that one of the complainants, Rush Smeeth was found to heve been funded by two ultra-wealthy figures from the same pro-Israel organization she once worked for.
She declared payments in her 'legislators’ financial interests' of a donation of £5,000 ($6,200) from Poju Zabludowicz’s company Tamares Real Estates in June 2015.
She also declared a donation worth £2,500 ($3,100) from Trevor Chinn, former chair of the Kwit-Fit chain of motor garages, at the same time.
Zabludowicz is the billionaire property speculator who was once reported to own 40 percent of downtown Las Vegas. He used his wealth, inherited from his Israeli arms dealer father, to establish BICOM, the Britain Israel Communications and Research Centre.
Since then, it has been virtually impossible to disentangle real antisemitism from criticism of Israel's behaviour
Unlike the Tories, who have continued to ignore accusations of racism and Islamophobia, The Labour Party immediately to accusations against themselves seriously and mounted full investigations.
Livingstone has never been shown to have an antisemitic bone in his body
This has never at any time been about The Jewish People - from the beginning it was a defence of Israel and it continues to be about that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Acorn4
Date: 25 May 18 - 08:59 AM

If they are having this inquiry into Russian meddling in the US, why not one into Israeli meddling in our politics?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: bobad
Date: 25 May 18 - 09:02 AM

Of course the state of Israel has no right to exist.

Denying the legitimacy of Israel is anti-Semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Ken Livingstone resigns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 18 - 09:19 AM

"Of course the state of Israel has no right to exist."
As Jack links this statement to the United States I can only assume that he refers to the behaviour of both
Neither States have the right to behave the way that have done and are still doing to other States
I don't believe that means they have no right to exist, but I do believe that believe that if their rulers continue to act in the belligerent way they both have they have no right to claim they are acting on behalf of either the Jewish or the American people
Israel is not "The Jews" so any statement made against it cannot be considered antisemitic
Jim Carroll