BS: Irish referendum

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 03:45 PM

"It's the Prods who have backed sectarianism, have held out against same-sex marriage, and who are quite likely to have been just as prolific at raping Children as were the Catholic clergyman

Care to give some proof for that scandalous statement? or is it a totally unwarranted slur? I suggest you substantiate your allegation or publicly apologize on this forum.

"A REPORT INTO institutional abuse at children’s homes in Northern Ireland has found that there was ‘widespread abuse’ at such facilities between 1922 and 1995.

The Historical Institutional Abuse inquiry had looked into allegations of abuse at 22 such children’s homes across Northern Ireland.

The largest number of complaints stemmed from four different Catholic-run institutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 03:44 PM

Well I don't think Prod is inflammatory. Its what my catholic cousins grew up calling me. its what I am - a proddy dog. woof!

But I do think it gives the lie to Jim's argument that the people of Northern Ireland want all the personal freedoms we on the mainland enjoy.

'It's the Prods who have backed sectarianism, have held out against same-sex marriage, and who are quite likely to have been just as prolific at raping Children as were the Catholic clergyman'

well that's half the people who don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 02:14 PM

From earlier, but uncommented on: "I just reminded all members of the pack to obey their Gruppen-Fuehrers."

Think I'd rather be called a prod any day.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 01:56 PM

PROD the language of a bigoted,,racist, inflammatory fool.

I believe the mods should delete the post Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 11:36 AM

Such language has no place on a public forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 01:51 PM

The phrase "two cheeks of the same arse" comes to mind here.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 12:37 PM

I do not think you should use your sectarian language on here Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 12:37 PM

Whoops loops
Go do 100 lines

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 11:36 AM

It's the Prods who have backed sectarianism, have held out against same-sex marriage, and who are quite likely to have been just as prolific at raping Children as were the Catholic clergyman
I can't think of a Southern counterpart to Paisley or Peter Robinson
Nothing to choose between either of them
The difference is that the Republic is shaing off the Christian demons clinging to their back - the North has yet to start, https://republican-news.org/current/news/2017/07/scottish_clampdown_on_orange_s.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 11:36 AM

It's the Prods who have backed sectarianism, have held out against same-sex marriage, and who are quite likely to have been just as prolific at raping Children as were the Catholic clergyman
I can't think of a Southern counterpart to Paisley or Peter Robinson
Nothing to choose between either of them
The difference is that the Republic is shaing off the Christian demons clinging to their back - the North has yet to start, https://republican-news.org/current/news/2017/07/scottish_clampdown_on_orange_s.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 11:20 AM

Im might have added, the same prehistoric bigots who refuse to recognise same sex marriage, refuse to launch an investigation into clerical abuse and who introduced the gun into twentieth century Irish politics to back up their bigotry

No. The Catholic Church has much less influence in the North.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 11:18 AM

"Their choice" is to deny choice and continue with the repression of women.

Yes. Few here think like them, but it remains their choice.
Should we have reoccupied RoI when they did not follow us immediately on abortion and gay marriage?

I have no doubt that NI will see sense eventually, but they would hate us all the more if we imposed it on them before they were ready.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 10:44 AM

Im might have added, the same prehistoric bigots who refuse to recognise same sex marriage, refuse to launch an investigation into clerical abuse and who introduced the gun into twentieth century Irish politics to back up their bigotry (but I won't bother as everybody already knows that already)
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 09:25 AM

"Their choice' could just as easily be said to be one of the final hold-outs for the rights of the unborn child."
And it could be described as the last stand of a bunch of prehistoric bigots
You appear not to have a great deal of time for either the British and the Irish people in the other counties
Nor does it show much respect for the people of the six counties who, it would seem., you refuse to give the right to decide for themselves rather than leave it to that same bunch of prehistoric bigots
Maybe it's time to start demanding a repeal of the British laws on abortion - waddya think Nigel?
If not, why not?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 09:01 AM

So what? His shrugging has gone down badly with Christians. What I said, what I meant. And this is about arguing for the same rights for women in Ireland, Northern Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. If you want to start a pointless debate about the rights of the unborn child or the moment when life begins, etc., start a new thread. You won't find me in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 08:59 AM

"So WHY in god's name do they vote for these very intemperate people?"
Because England gerrymandered an unequally divided State

Not true.
2017, DUP got the biggest vote fair and square, slightly ahead of Sinn Fein.
Add in UUP and Unionists still well in front.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 08:49 AM

"Their choice" is to deny choice and continue with the repression of women. Some choice. I seem to remember that Pontius Pilate shrugged and said "their choice" too. That didn't go down well with you Christians, so why should this?

'Their choice' could just as easily be said to be one of the final hold-outs for the rights of the unborn child.

As for Pilate, he 'devolved' his choice to the Jews, not the Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 08:45 AM

I don't believe that any of this alters May's dilemma one iota
The PSNI are using a British law to prevent the use of the abortion pill and it lies within the remit of the Government to remove that law from the statute books
But as (due to subsequent law changes applicable only to 'Great Britain') that law is now only effective in Northern Ireland, and Northern Ireland has achieved a measure of self-determination, it is not a matter in which Theresa May can easily act.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 08:36 AM

"Their choice" is to deny choice and continue with the repression of women. Some choice. I seem to remember that Pontius Pilate shrugged and said "their choice" too. That didn't go down well with you Christians, so why should this?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 08:36 AM

The current spat between NI parties is not our fault either.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 08:29 AM

The law still applies to Britain as a whole Keith and will nontinue to do so until it is repealed
That is the only law available to the PSNI to prevent women taking the abortion pill

The British changed the law on abortion but the Irish, North and South, chose not to.
Not our fault. Their choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 07:47 AM

I don't believe that any of this alters May's dilemma one iota
The PSNI are using a British law to prevent the use of the abortion pill and it lies within the remit of the Government to remove that law from the statute books
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 07:43 AM

To be really boring.

Only Parliament may enact Acts of Parliament. Any such Acts are superior to all other sources of law
and may not be challenged in the courts. Although Parliament passes the legislation it is the task of
the judges to interpret it - this is known as Statutory Interpretation

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 07:40 AM

"So WHY in god's name do they vote for these very intemperate people?"
Because England gerrymandered an unequally divided State where property ownership was a deciding factor in whether or not you had the right to vote - disadvantaging the third Catholic minority - one of the early actions after independence was to abolish the existing Proportional representative system
The inequality led to nearly fifty years of sectarian violence (still displayed on the "Glorious 12th") and eventually The Troubles
Gradually, the gap has been lessened, both between the different communities and in the rights which were fought for - the "only one and a half years" of having no Government has brought that to a screeching halt (hence the present stalemate over abortion)
Brexit and issues such as this have made a United Ireland almost inevitable - till then, we're stuck with the "interpenetrates"
Arlene Foster says she will not live in a United Ireland - interested to see where she will choose as her new home to suit her politics
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 07:32 AM

A statute is an Act of Parliament. After legislation has been proposed it begins life as a bill, passes various readings in both the House of Commons and the House of Lords before receiving Royal Assent and becoming law
A superior one is a later one that modifies/replaces/repeals previous legislation/statutes

""Law" refers to the entire body of statutory, administrative, and common law provisions that regulate our society. A "statute" is the specific, codified statement of some law that has been approved by the legislative body (and often endorsed by the executive body) of a government."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 07:24 AM

what's a superior statute?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 06:26 AM

The law still applies to Britain as a whole Keith and will nontinue to do so until it is repealed.

NO! it has been superseded in the Englands by superior statutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 06:22 AM

Okay Jim. We take your word for it. People in NI are no different to us. They want the same kinds of freedom that we do.

So WHY in god's name do they vote for these very intemperate people?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 06:13 AM

PLEASE READ THIS for C o L
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 06:11 AM

The law still applies to Britain as a whole Keith and will nontinue to do so until it is repealed
That is the only law available to the PSNI to prevent women taking the abortion pill
Do you wonder why people don't wish to talk to you !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 05:30 AM

Apparently the law making abortion illegal in Northern Ireland is not Irish but a 150 year old redundant British one

There was no devolution then so it applied to GB and Ireland.
Mainland GB decided on abortion reform, but Ireland North and South decided not to.
RI has only just decided to and it has yet to be enacted.
NI has yet to decide.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 03:39 AM

"What has been the frequency and outcomes of abortion in Eire prior to this period? "

THIS WAS THE SITUATION IN THE SOUTH PRIOR TO THE REFERENDUM
Only 88 illegal abortions were registered as having taken place since the 8th Amendment was introduced
There is no record of cases being tried, but the penalty for taking an abortion pill prior to the referendum was fourteen years imprisonment

THESE ARE THE LEGAL CONSEQUENCES OF HAVING AN ABORTION IN THE NORTH
Jim Carroll

There are no figures on how many illegal abortions are carried out in the North, but it is significant that many women demonstrating yesterday were carrying coat-hangers!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 03:11 AM

"The way they'll deal with it is not to do anything."
That is not an option any more Mac
If a member of Parliament attempts to introduce a motion to repeal the law which only effects Northern Ireland, the Government has either to agree to let it go to a vote or to refuse to do so
Either way cannot be described as "doing nothing"
Thirteen Conservative women MPs have already voiced their support for the Government intervening to introduce abortion into the Six Counties, there are undoubtedly more who have not yet stuck their head over the parapet
Transfer this to a less controversial option of repealing an old law irrelevant to most of Britain...
I don't think May can risk a Parliamentary defeat at present - do you ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: robomatic
Date: 31 May 18 - 09:05 PM

What has been the frequency and outcomes of abortion in Eire prior to this period? NYT has article on performance of abortions where abortions are illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 18 - 08:45 PM

A free vote in the Commons would not represent government diktat.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 18 - 08:00 PM

The way they'll deal with it is not to do anything. Legislation to change the law can only be initiated by the government, and they won't do it because without DUP support they aren't a government.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 07:40 PM

Interesting development revealed in an interview with a Labour MP tonight
Apparently the law making abortion illegal in Northern Ireland is not Irish but a 150 year old redundant British one
In Britain it has been superseded by laws making abortion legal, but the old law has never been removed from the statute books
When the PSNI threatened to have the protesters who took (or pretended to take) abortion pills at the rally today arrested they did so using a 150 year old British law that applies only to the Six Counties
The MP interviewed is attempting to get the law repealed, thus allowing women who wish to to end unwanted pregnancies without fear of prosecution
Bit of a dilemma for a Government in hock to the DUP; they can only agree to repeal the law at the risk of losing DUP support; if tey refuse, they have blown the gaff on why they are really refusing to support Irish women
Interesting to see how Maggie may or her supporters talk their way out of this one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 08:58 AM

Thank you Nigel
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 18 - 08:42 AM

For more on Jim's claim see Belfast Telegraph

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 08:27 AM

Northern Irish police have threatened to arrest women who accept free abortion pills at an organised rally
Interesting to see if this reaches the civil disobedience level

(my suggestion on the other matter still stands until the two people it is aimed at clean up their act, otherwise no thread is safe from their behaviour)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 18 - 07:45 AM

AN admirable idea.
My sole point about the impending court decision is that it would ease the pain of imposed legislation. There is no epidural equivalent for making such legislation pain free, given the present state of governance in northern ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 18 - 07:38 AM

Wouldn't it be a good idea if we turned our attention to the topic rather that batting back and forth insults?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 18 - 07:32 AM

Keith's suggestion is that blank Iain's serial abuser behavior

Not my suggestion.
I just reminded all members of the pack to obey their Gruppen-Fuehrers.
Free thought is not permitted.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 18 - 06:34 AM

I haven't been able to fathom what Iains is on about most of the time. That is not a request for him to explain what that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 06:19 AM

Seems to me the only way to stop threads getting closed is to remove the serial offenders ourselves
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 06:04 AM

Keith's suggestion is that blank Iain's serial abuser behavior
All in favour?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 18 - 05:56 AM

Your abusive behavior is not only an indication that you haven't a clue of what you are attempting to discuss
If you can't behave like an adult without using your usual childish rhetoric then leave the subject to those who can

Mirror mirror on the wall who is the most abusive of them all? Would jimmie like some of his examples?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 18 - 05:43 AM

Whatever the Supreme Court decides will make no difference whatsoever in this matter. That would be the case even if it were to decide that the law needed to be changed. Undoubtedly the response to any such decision would be for the British government to insist that any such action was the responsibility of the Northern Ireland government, and must be deferred until that was in a position to act.

Theresa May will do nothing, and wait for the next crisis. You can't move an object by pulling or pushing on a rope of sand.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 18 - 05:33 AM

""Majority party in the UK, sadly, is the Conservative party."
it did not have a majority of votes, the labour and lberal parties had more votes, they just had more seats because of the electoral system and gerry mandering [altering boundaries to suit their party "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvPV4xy_Ebo&feature=youtu.be


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Periodic_Review_of_Westminster_constituencies
I suspect the accusation of gerrynmandering is taken from one of the guardians "away with the faeries allegations". The reality is the proposal is to reduce the number of seats and reflect changing demographics in order that, with limited exceptions,(the islands of nw scotland and isle of wight for example) The numbers of voters in each constituency are roughly equal.

The electoral reform body is non partisan and anyone is welcomed to contribute.

I presume no proof will be offered to support the wild allegation of gerrymandering by the tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 May 18 - 05:28 AM

I will take no lectures in patriotism from brexiters Iains. You have voted to stuff my country, and this will be pointed out to you forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 18 - 05:18 AM

The very large majority of the population who did not allow themselves to be bamboozled by sound-bites, racist slogans on vans, lies on buses, xenophobic rhetoric, a mindlessly-repeated ad-nauseam 'Take Back Control', and a daft, airy-fairy idea of returning to the 1960s and prior, to vote 'Leave' can not, by any stretch of the imagination, be described as 'quislings'. These are people who believe they have the very best interests of the UK at heart, as part of an established, co-operative bloc of nations who trade together and in the wider world, and take advantage of a homogenised tax/tariff system.

And, unless you can show that all those who didn't vote would have voted to remain: An even larger 'majority' did not allow themselves to be bamboozled by the false predictions of 'Project Fear'. Those who voted leave (except if for purely personal financial considerations) also had the best interests of the UK at heart.