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BS: Emotional Subjects

Donuel 25 Jun 18 - 08:36 PM
Donuel 25 Jun 18 - 03:00 PM
Senoufou 25 Jun 18 - 01:48 PM
MikeL2 25 Jun 18 - 01:39 PM
MikeL2 25 Jun 18 - 01:36 PM
Senoufou 25 Jun 18 - 01:03 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jun 18 - 11:43 AM
MikeL2 25 Jun 18 - 10:09 AM
Senoufou 25 Jun 18 - 03:46 AM
keberoxu 24 Jun 18 - 06:40 PM
Senoufou 24 Jun 18 - 01:30 PM
MikeL2 24 Jun 18 - 01:14 PM
MikeL2 23 Jun 18 - 04:05 AM
keberoxu 22 Jun 18 - 08:43 AM
MikeL2 20 Jun 18 - 05:41 AM
MikeL2 20 Jun 18 - 05:25 AM
Senoufou 19 Jun 18 - 03:18 PM
MikeL2 19 Jun 18 - 02:53 PM
Stilly River Sage 17 Jun 18 - 10:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jun 18 - 08:59 AM
MikeL2 15 Jun 18 - 10:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jun 18 - 03:37 PM
Senoufou 14 Jun 18 - 03:36 PM
MikeL2 14 Jun 18 - 03:04 PM
Senoufou 14 Jun 18 - 03:02 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 18 - 02:55 PM
Senoufou 14 Jun 18 - 01:53 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 18 - 01:41 PM
Senoufou 14 Jun 18 - 01:24 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 18 - 09:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jun 18 - 09:55 AM
Senoufou 14 Jun 18 - 09:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jun 18 - 08:11 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jun 18 - 06:55 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 18 - 06:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jun 18 - 06:46 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jun 18 - 06:26 AM
Senoufou 14 Jun 18 - 06:19 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jun 18 - 06:09 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 18 - 06:00 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 18 - 03:27 AM
robomatic 13 Jun 18 - 09:31 PM
keberoxu 13 Jun 18 - 01:53 PM
robomatic 11 Jun 18 - 10:10 PM
beardedbruce 11 Jun 18 - 04:14 PM
robomatic 11 Jun 18 - 03:40 PM
beardedbruce 11 Jun 18 - 03:21 PM
Stilly River Sage 10 Jun 18 - 12:55 AM
Joe Offer 10 Jun 18 - 12:48 AM
Stilly River Sage 09 Jun 18 - 11:44 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:36 PM

Civil protest can be emotional but it is not a call to harm someone.

We have come to expect Trump actually calling for physical harm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 03:00 PM

Emotion is very uncomfortable for us to the point where we often joke it away. If losing a twenty could be an emotional loss how about joking about real loss. Avoidence works, at least in mixed company.
If you don't laugh you would cry but laughing is easier.

A WAGNER ride of the Valkeries to me is a Holcauster ride in an amusment park compared to the real emotions of what the Wagner loving Nazis felt. Emotions are suppressed hidden or denied.

I think we would be healthier with emotions up front and center.

When Trump jokes about Ann Frank having a 'staycation' it is for other purposes entirely.

If you were asked why you ever liked Catspaw and thought it was because he shared his knowledge freely, you missed the point. He was emotionally free.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 01:48 PM

Aw, thank you Mike.
But the chap said he might use it for spare parts or scrap... (sobs even louder)


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: MikeL2
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 01:39 PM

Hi Sen

Don't get upset, you looked after it well for 13 years.

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: MikeL2
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 01:36 PM

Hi Steve

Hey I found your note as it floated into valetta......lol

And last year I found a £20 note in the grass by the side of the canal as we were out walking. Not yours is it''lol

cheers

Mike

PS Now off to watch Spain and Portugal games.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 01:03 PM

Oh I'm so glad I'm not the only one!

We were both emotional this morning because we decided to sell our much-loved Vauxhall Meriva to the garage chap in our village.
It's got so many problems (13 years old) and we still have the Fiesta, so we took the poor old car round there and filled in the V5 logbook doodah.
The chap looked at us sideways as we patted it and said our goodbyes.

It's called 'Assita' after my husband's mother.... The seats were so comfortable... It was a lovely silvery colour... Goodbye Assita... (sobs noisily into handkerchief)


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 11:43 AM

A few years ago I was standing on the end of the quay in Amalfi. I put my hand in my pocket for a tissue, a ten euro note came out alongside it and I had to watch ruefully as it fluttered gracefully into the Tyrrhenian Sea below. If anyone finds a ten euro in the Med, it's mine. I still feel very emotional about it. That was three gelati up the Swanee, that was...


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: MikeL2
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 10:09 AM

hi sen

Don't worry your not alone. My wife left a bag in a bar in Menorca.
It contained all our cash, credit cards and Air tickets; we were returning home that evening.

We both walked away and some hours later we discovered the bag was missing. We rushed back to the bar fully expecting it to have gone. But much to our surprise and delight it had been handed in by someone who found it in the toilet.

The owner of the bar would not accept even a drink.

I am happy to say that we had no such moments since.

Mind you we still do some silly things.

Even last week my wife rang to pay off our credit card which she does every month. She rang to pay our bill. They informed her she had already paid it. She got mixed up with June and July.

regards

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 03:46 AM

It was a bit emotional keberoxu. It was very hot (although we're fine in the heat usually) and the wallet had my husband's bank cards, driving licence, some money etc. so it was very worrying.

He owns one or two 'men's handbags' but seldom uses them. The worst thing was my concern that i'm getting a bit 'dotty' and forgetful. Age I suppose... :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 06:40 PM

No worries, MikeL2.

Senoufou/Eliza,
if that moment was not an emotional experience,
I don't know what would be!


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 01:30 PM

Hahahaha Mike! I hold the Olympic gold medal for confusion.

Just today I stupidly left my husband's bank card wallet on the counter of a souvenir shop (National Trust property at Blickling) He gives it to me when we go out together to put in my handbag, and I laid it down and forgot.
Fortunately the shop lady had noticed it and had kept it safe. We fled back and she handed it over. Phew! Major Senile Moment.

Have you heard of CRAFT groups? Can't Remember A F****** Thing... :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: MikeL2
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 01:14 PM

Hi Keberoxu

I apologize for confusing you with Sen.

So thanks for the info. Very interesting.

Also apolgies to Sen for the confusion in my brain.

Regards

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: MikeL2
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 04:05 AM

Hi Sen

Yes I meant Ecco Boots -smack my hands ...lol.

We still use them as we have started walking again.

We both live in the sandals and find that they last much longer than most other makes.

Many years ago we had not seen them in the UK but we spotted them as we were walking Italy, Of course now they are easy to find over here in the UK. We find them the most comfortable to wear.

Regards

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 08:43 AM

MikeL2,
are you quite sure you don't mean Ecco boots and walking sandals?
I adore the walking sandals myself,
and I miss the Ecco Shaker shoes, good-looking and hardworking.

And talking of emotional subjects,
I just heard one on a news-radio soundbite:

cannabis versus opioids for pain relief.
This in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts,
which has just legalized RECREATIONAL cannabis
as well as medical cannabis.

Count on Americans to make a business competition out of it.
Meanwhile, casualties mount from overdoses amongst other things.
It's sickening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: MikeL2
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 05:41 AM

Hi Dave thanks for the comments.

My wife and I have been keen walkers for many years and have walked regularly - particularly in the Granada & Sierra Nevadas in Spain and Madeira along the levadas.

I have been retired now for 25 years and at 82 have had to slow down somewhat. But we still walked in Scotland and in Wales.

Recently though I started to suffer from arthritis in my knee and for a while could not walk at all. I am getting used to and despite the pain we have started to walk locally again. But long walks are out.

We both use Echo boots and walking sandals and had no problems.

Thanks for your comments I welcome them.

Cheers

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: MikeL2
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 05:25 AM

Hi Sen

I am glad that you found the information useful and interesting.

I will let you know when I actually get involved with a Group.

Please let me know how you go on.

Regards

Mike the Pilgrim


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 03:18 PM

That was very kind of you Mike to set out the information! Thank you so much for that.

I might see my GP and get a referral to a group. I see there's one in Fakenham (not too far from us) It's always easier to make changes when one has the encouragement of fellow pilgrims!


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: MikeL2
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 02:53 PM

" I'd be very keen to know how you get on in the Health Group."

Sorry to be so long in replying. Misplaced the request and just turned it up now.

I was told by my GP that I was a risk for Type 2 diabetes. He told me to join this Group and Gave me the referral information.

Here is the info to the web site http://preventing-diabetes.co.uk/selfrerral/

Also here is telephone no.    0333 577 3010.

It is a National Organisation with Branches pretty well all over England, It is run by a Company and the NHS and is free to people who qualify.

I have self referred and have been accepted. They are trying to set up a Group close to me but they say they will contact me in about a month with information of the local Group info.

I have not heard yet, but will let you know more when they contact me.

I think you come from Norwich ?? I know there are groups there but no more than that.

I had no problems in getting in contact and the web site and Phone contact dealt with me and gave me all I needed to know.

Hope this is of interest to you.

Regards

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 10:18 AM

Introducing a different kind of "emotional subject." I just listened to an interview with writer/director David Lynch (Twin Peaks, Blue Velvet, The Elephant Man, Eraserhead, etc.) on NPR (Weekend Edition Sunday morning). The host asked him why the women in his films suffer such anxiety and hardship and he talked about "falling in love with an idea," and not having to suffer himself in order to portray suffering. Would his films be as successful if the women were happier? I haven't seen all of his films, and it has been a long time since I've seen any of them, but I have to agree with Lulu, the NPR host. His women characters can be grim.

Not every film in which women face hardships is going to end up like (for example, all by different writers and directors) Shirley Valentine and Norma Rae or other strong female characters (The Piano, Heartland, Places in the Heart, etc.) but I certainly enjoy those more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 08:59 AM

Walking is a great way of exercising, Mike. I guess you are retired and may have time for it. I would strongly advise getting a pair of decent shoes or boots to cushion the impact and protect you from jolts. I am wearing Sketchers at the mo. Great for urban pavements but not good for anything rougher. I have a pair of good hiking boots for rough terrain and some lighter hiking shoes for anything in between. It is not Emelda Marcos syndrome. Just a great belief in looking after my feet :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: MikeL2
Date: 15 Jun 18 - 10:58 AM

hi Dave

Pleased to hear that you are having success with your life-style changes. It is early days for me. But I am determined to keep going in my task.

I am trying to increase exercise gradually and it seems to me that I feel better for the weight loss. I have been in sport all of my life and feel frustrated at not being able to do only very limited exercise now.

cheers Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 03:37 PM

I am also at risk, Mike. Purely weight related. I managed to lose a bit and came out of the red zone but never really succeeded in getting a healthier lifestyle. Recently though I have managed a couple of lifestyle changes that are helping a lot. I will rarely eat anything that is heavily processed and I try to exercise every day even if it is only 30 minutes walking - Often more and including cycling now. I am also making good use of an extra day a week off work I now have and using to go for a much longer walk in the surrounding countryside. Up to now the weight is coming down but the biggest bonus is I feel so much better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 03:36 PM

You did well to lose a stone Mike! Do you think you might get a replacement knee joint in the near future?
Apart from Shloer, my sin is dairy, since I love full milk, cream and butter. The doc talks about 'good' cholesterol and 'bad' cholesterol, and apparently mine is erring on the 'good' side.
I'd be very keen to know how you get on in the Health Group.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: MikeL2
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 03:04 PM

Hi Dave & Sen

I watched the program and am recording second episode tonight.

I don't have Type 2 Diabetes but have recently been informed by my Doctor that I am at risk.

He has got me to apply for a place in "A healthier Group which is held in many areas of the UK.

I have applied to take part but not heard anything yet.

I understand it comprises eating healthy combined with doing light exercise. The latter bothers me as I am 82 and have an arthritic knee.
I do limp around as much as I can, but it is not much.
I am not unduly overweight - I have recently cut down on food mainly by having smaller portions and cutting down on alcohol, In doing so I have lost a stone in weight.

I will report what the Healthier Group come up with.

Regards MikeL2


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 03:02 PM

They live on another planet don't they Jim? Arrogant pigs!


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 02:55 PM

I think I told people about the time The Duke of Westminster locked me in his kitchen because he thought I might steal the family silver
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 01:53 PM

That would be excellent Jim. Let's hope it comes to pass. As you say, there are a lot of people watching the situation who won't sit idly by while these poor folk are ignored and fobbed off.

My father knew Kensington like the back of his hand. His job meant he had to visit the extremely wealthy to arrange telephone services etc. (Telecommunications Officer, London Western Area Manager for the GPO) Like you, he too saw the deplorable contrast between the rich and the very poor in the Borough (and this was in the fifties). He even had to personally visit Princess blooming Margaret in Kensington Palace (who was as arrogant as heck).
People like that make my blood boil...


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 01:41 PM

"I bet they won't though"
I don't think this will be allowed to slip out of sight Sen
The Borough and the surrounding ones are the wealthiest in Britain and also the most socially unequal
I worked for a cousin of the Queen, Lord Snowdon, Ruby Wax, Shirley Bassey's manager, Joan Collins, The Duke of Westminster, Nicholas Roeg and and his wife, Theresa Russell and a leading Q.C. who played Bruce Springsteen guitar and used to date a Northern Irish republican girl... and many more, all at the same time as servicing some of those awful slums - talk about seeing how both halves live!
Today's commemorations suggest that these survivors will get what they are entitled to - hopefully!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 01:24 PM

Yes Dave, I did indeed watch it, and it looks very promising that Type 2 can be reversed. It was my bossy sister on the phone who said that I was a (insert very rude word here) to touch Shloer, and was asking for diabetes. I haven't told her I'm now on it again and need rehab!!

Jim, I quite agree about the Grenfell survivors, and the story of the treatment of tenants over quite a long period of history of the area was heartbreaking. (I watched that too on TV last night) Exploitation and complete lack of interest in conditions, safety, fair rents etc by landlords, including the local council.

They seem most reluctant to do anything much for the survivors. They should be falling over themselves to help them (and offering huge compensation). I bet they won't though...


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 09:56 AM

Most of the survivors of the Grenfell Tower Fire are still homeless, and that's how it will remain, PROMISES THE HOME SECRETARY
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 09:55 AM

Did you see the programme about type 2 diabetes remission, Sen? I didn't watch it but Mrs G was telling me it is quite promising. Very low calorie diet for a number of weeks then gradually reintroduce normal eating to keep the weight off. Worked for a lot of people but hopefully you will never need to try :-)

Steve - I am going to get some Nero d'Avola to take to my mate's next week. Can you recommend a complimentary white? They usually have a Sauvignon Blanc from Chile or some other such furrin parts...


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 09:28 AM

And their Shloer is only £1 a bottle, so thank you again Dave!
(And I'll be suing you if I get type 2 diabetes from all the sugar therein!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 08:11 AM

I'll just take the credit anyway. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 06:55 AM

I'm very emotional about the fact that Morrisons Nero d'Avola is currently two for ten quid. If that was you, Dave, well done me old son!


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 06:49 AM

Still reckon Bugs Bunny's "Kill the Wabbit" was Wagner at his very best
It used to drive Tom Munnelly spare - I still giggle at the thought of it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 06:46 AM

Coming back to the original subject in a roundabout sort of way, I watched the end of the BBC drama 'A very British Scandal' last night. I do remember it happening but could not recall the details. What struck me most was how the jury was manipulated by both the defense and the judge. The defense ripped into witnesses for the prosecution, which was their job of course. But not with anything particularly relevant to the case in question. It was all about scoring points by presenting the 'truth' with the slant in their favour. The judge, in his summation, was ridiculously biased but somehow got away with it apart from having the piss taken out of him for years to come by contemporary comedians.

What happened in the end of course was that Thorpe, who in all probability was guilty of inciting murder at the very least, got away Scot free (no pun intended) There are those on here that would have us believe that such manipulation is perfectly acceptable and they indulge in it regularly. I do not accept that it is is and, even though this is a very trivial forum, we should not allow such dishonesty a foothold or we may end up seeing it everywhere.

Just my 2p and bringing us back to Al's original point of being able to discuss without getting so serious and emotional about it. Eventually :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 06:26 AM

I find his music suffused with ego. I find the same thing with Liszt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 06:19 AM

My sister went to Bayreuth many years ago to experience Der Ring Des Nibelungen, and said it was fabulous. But I don't like Wagner's bombastic style one bit, and being subjected to it day after day, hour after hour would have driven me round the bend (or 'wahnsinning'!).


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 06:09 AM

Wagner's alleged influence on film score composers is at least arguable, I suppose, but in the wider context of the direction that classical music has taken I think his music represented a dead end. Of course, his followers would claim that his music reached a pinnacle which couldn't be surmounted, but they would, wouldn't they. I see very little of his influence on composers beyond the early part of the last century, with the exception of Richard Strauss, who at least managed to move away from the heaviness and overstuffedness of it. I'd ten times sooner see an opera by Mozart, Verdi or Puccini than anything by Wagner any day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 06:00 AM

"my late fried,"
A typo, not a reference to a cremation
Tom Was buried in w wicker coffin in Ballard Road Graveyard, Miltown Malbay
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 03:27 AM

I've never liked Wagner, and I think he found a comfortable home with the NAZIS
I'm not sure how I'd have got on if I liked his music - my late fried, Tom Munnelly shared many of my political views but his (unfulfilled) ambition was to attend Beyruth - we argued endlessly on the sunject into the early hours over several pints.
I was delighted to have found him a second-hand copy of George Bernard Shaw's 'The Perfect Wagnerite: A Commentary on the Nibelung's Ring'
Maybe the most suitable use his music was put to was in Francis Ford Coppola's Apocalypse Now - certainly a fine backdrop to those helicopters
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 09:31 PM

K:
I think that is an excellent point. When I was learning music in the public schools it was called 'programmatic music' I believe and I don't recall Wagner nor Opera being used as examples, rather the music of Strauss and specifically his compostion: "Till Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks" because the events depicted by the music are damn near oenomatopoetic: Till riding his horse and splashing the noblemen, Till before the judge, Till's neck being snapped by the rope...


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: keberoxu
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 01:53 PM

I visited that museum, years ago, robomatic.
I remember the images (artistic, not photographs)
of adult Chinese women with the consequences of foot-binding.

Another angle of the influence of Wagner.
There is an essential genre of music,
essential to the twentieth century and the present century,
of sound-tracks for motion pictures.

Not Wagner alone, of course, but the whole legacy of opera in general
is brought to bear in composing feature-film sound-tracks.
Recall Erich von Korngold, sound-track composer for such films
as "Captain Blood,"
who got his start composing both light operetta and
full-on serious operas in Vienna.
Hollywood was quite the destination
for emigré European composers, especially Central Europeans,
in the twentieth century.

I reckon that film audiences, especially younger-generations of film sound-track composers,
have been soaking up that European influence --
which decidedly includes Wagner --
more than many of them appreciate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 18 - 10:10 PM

There's a small museum in Milton, Massachusetts: I remember it being called The Museum of the American China Trade. Now it seems to be Forbes House Museum . It was a sea captain's house. The docents were lovely elderly New England ladies who gave very personalized tours. One of them was talking about the opium trade which was mostly English, but she said, in a low confidential voice "we had ten percent of that trade."


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 18 - 04:14 PM

And of course, what New England colleges would there be today if not for the wealth generated by the "Triangle Trade"

"The best-known triangular trading system is the transatlantic slave trade, that operated from the late 16th to early 19th centuries, carrying slaves, cash crops, and manufactured goods between West Africa, Caribbean or American colonies and the European colonial powers, with the northern colonies of British North America, especially New England, sometimes taking over the role of Europe.[1] The use of African slaves was fundamental to growing colonial cash crops, which were exported to Europe. European goods, in turn, were used to purchase African slaves, who were then brought on the sea lane west from Africa to the Americas, the so-called Middle Passage.[2] Despite being driven primarily by economic needs, Europeans sometimes had a religious justification for their actions. In 1452, for instance, Pope Nicholas V, in the Dum Diversas, granted to the kings of Spain and Portugal "full and free permission to invade, search out, capture, and subjugate the Saracens [Muslims] and pagans and any other unbelievers ... and to reduce their persons into perpetual slavery."

A classic example is the colonial molasses trade. Sugar (often in its liquid form, molasses) from the Caribbean was traded to Europe or New England, where it was distilled into rum. The profits from the sale of sugar were used to purchase manufactured goods, which were then shipped to West Africa, where they were bartered for slaves. The slaves were then brought back to the Caribbean to be sold to sugar planters. The profits from the sale of the slaves were then used to buy more sugar, which was shipped to Europe, restarting the cycle. The trip itself took five to twelve weeks."


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 18 - 03:40 PM

It is scary to think of such things as moral boundries being less than hard edged, but this is the way it is.
One of my favorite actors, Hal Holbrook, started young with extensive makeup and did very creditable performances as Mark Twain who travelled widely and performed solo for audiences. In one of his monologues from Huckleberry Finn, Huck finds himself in a moral quandary, because Jim is running away from his legal owner. Huck lies to the slave hunters and feel guilty about it, but he reflects on the fact that if he'd turned Jim in he'd feel bad:

"What's the use you learning to do right when it's troublesome to do right and ain't no trouble to do wrong, and the wages is just the same?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 18 - 03:21 PM

The question becomes, is one judging the work ( of art) or the artist?

All the Greek philosophers lived in slave holding societies.

So would NOTHING created from before, say, 1700 be acceptable? What about 19th century "poor houses"? Are they fundamentally any different from slavery?

IMO one should judge the work without regard to the artist- One thing I dislike is so-called "art" that depends on sympathy for the artist. I have great sympathy for the child dying of cancer, but does that make his/her poetry or crayon drawings any better art?


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jun 18 - 12:55 AM

Good read - I was thinking of him as I wrote. I have only seen the Keillor accusations referenced, I haven't actually read anything from the women who accused him. And there is a line to acknowledge - famous people attract attention, and sometimes get attention from disturbed people. Most of this is probably regular rational people speaking up, but there will be a subset needing closer examination, probably away from the public eye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 18 - 12:48 AM

Hi, Acme -
The move to remove Garrison Keillor's A Prairie Home Companion show is very problematic to me. I don't doubt that Garrison was guilty of the misconduct he was accused of, but his archive of programs has some of the best performances of modern American folk musicians - and it appears those great performances will be forever unavailable.
I'm sure some of those performers, were Keillor's victims. Same with performers who were victims of Cosby and Weinstein.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 11:44 PM

Joe, you hit the nail on the head - there just doesn't seem to be a suitable answer.

I think we must separate the art from the flawed artist for a number of reasons - first and foremost, as fashions and mores ebb and flow, behavior is often scrutinized and either rejected or ignored. The whole moral turpitude complaint against gay men (lesbians were below the radar for a really really long time) is meaningless now for reasonable people. There are great films out there made by nasty men; but they didn't make the films by themselves, they simply got to hang a name on it. Consider the contributions of the others as something that lets you continue to love those films. The name can be separated from the work of art.

When the reverse happens, when the behavior was ignored for so long and now is so hugely in our faces, like Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein, again, they didn't do all of that work by themselves. Cosby is like some kind of split personality, knowing what to say onscreen, doing the absolute worst offscreen.

The link I posted earlier to the discussion of the work of Roman Polanski ties in. He was charged with rape a very long time ago; he says he has "paid." Who gets to decide that? All of these bad-behaving men - many are nasty SOBs, but what they did isn't given the death penalty. Shunning is alive and well, not just the practice of cloistered Mennonite or Amish communities. How will those individuals who were cast out, the really bad, the kind of bad, and those who probably have a good answer but no one is listening, how will they support themselves? Do they have residuals to tide them over? When will they be allowed back in society? To again perform their art? Actual criminal prisoners who are released are on their own to try to start over. How does that happen with some of these shunned folks?

Don't get me wrong, Harvey can rot in Hell. Bill Cosby was a handsome, gregarious, rich guy who could have had affairs on the side, little harm done, but he preferred to drug and rape women. He can rot right alongside Harvey. Others I see stepping aside for the good of their party or organization, and I think maybe there's a more complex story there. Perhaps as time passes, some will speak up. How come that whole Kobe Bryant mess hasn't come up again? There are some messed up women in the world who will be contributing to this for their own reasons.

What brought this about? Trump. He's getting away with his bad behavior toward women because a ton of enablers (mostly rich white men) want him to dismantle social programs and economic protections and taken back federal lands from protected status and give industry a shot at polluting land and water, not until he has done as much as he can get away with will they rein him in. The ire of American women is up, and until they can take down the worst perpetrator who cheated and lost the popular vote to Hillary, who still ended up in office, heads will continue to roll. As they should. (The difference between Trump and most of these other guys? Trump is all about Trump, everything all of the time must reference him. At least the others produced art.)


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Mudcat time: 19 September 2:42 PM EDT

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