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BS: Emotional Subjects

MikeL2 20 Jun 18 - 05:41 AM
MikeL2 20 Jun 18 - 05:25 AM
Senoufou 19 Jun 18 - 03:18 PM
MikeL2 19 Jun 18 - 02:53 PM
Acme 17 Jun 18 - 10:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jun 18 - 08:59 AM
MikeL2 15 Jun 18 - 10:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jun 18 - 03:37 PM
Senoufou 14 Jun 18 - 03:36 PM
MikeL2 14 Jun 18 - 03:04 PM
Senoufou 14 Jun 18 - 03:02 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 18 - 02:55 PM
Senoufou 14 Jun 18 - 01:53 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 18 - 01:41 PM
Senoufou 14 Jun 18 - 01:24 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 18 - 09:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jun 18 - 09:55 AM
Senoufou 14 Jun 18 - 09:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jun 18 - 08:11 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jun 18 - 06:55 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 18 - 06:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jun 18 - 06:46 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jun 18 - 06:26 AM
Senoufou 14 Jun 18 - 06:19 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jun 18 - 06:09 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 18 - 06:00 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 18 - 03:27 AM
robomatic 13 Jun 18 - 09:31 PM
keberoxu 13 Jun 18 - 01:53 PM
robomatic 11 Jun 18 - 10:10 PM
beardedbruce 11 Jun 18 - 04:14 PM
robomatic 11 Jun 18 - 03:40 PM
beardedbruce 11 Jun 18 - 03:21 PM
Acme 10 Jun 18 - 12:55 AM
Joe Offer 10 Jun 18 - 12:48 AM
Acme 09 Jun 18 - 11:44 PM
Joe Offer 09 Jun 18 - 11:13 PM
robomatic 09 Jun 18 - 10:21 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jun 18 - 07:22 PM
Donuel 09 Jun 18 - 07:11 PM
Acme 09 Jun 18 - 06:34 PM
robomatic 09 Jun 18 - 06:16 PM
keberoxu 09 Jun 18 - 01:40 PM
Kenny B 09 Jun 18 - 01:19 PM
punkfolkrocker 09 Jun 18 - 01:13 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jun 18 - 12:39 PM
punkfolkrocker 09 Jun 18 - 12:06 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jun 18 - 11:46 AM
keberoxu 08 Jun 18 - 11:35 PM
Donuel 08 Jun 18 - 01:50 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: MikeL2
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 05:41 AM

Hi Dave thanks for the comments.

My wife and I have been keen walkers for many years and have walked regularly - particularly in the Granada & Sierra Nevadas in Spain and Madeira along the levadas.

I have been retired now for 25 years and at 82 have had to slow down somewhat. But we still walked in Scotland and in Wales.

Recently though I started to suffer from arthritis in my knee and for a while could not walk at all. I am getting used to and despite the pain we have started to walk locally again. But long walks are out.

We both use Echo boots and walking sandals and had no problems.

Thanks for your comments I welcome them.

Cheers

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: MikeL2
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 05:25 AM

Hi Sen

I am glad that you found the information useful and interesting.

I will let you know when I actually get involved with a Group.

Please let me know how you go on.

Regards

Mike the Pilgrim


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 03:18 PM

That was very kind of you Mike to set out the information! Thank you so much for that.

I might see my GP and get a referral to a group. I see there's one in Fakenham (not too far from us) It's always easier to make changes when one has the encouragement of fellow pilgrims!


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: MikeL2
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 02:53 PM

" I'd be very keen to know how you get on in the Health Group."

Sorry to be so long in replying. Misplaced the request and just turned it up now.

I was told by my GP that I was a risk for Type 2 diabetes. He told me to join this Group and Gave me the referral information.

Here is the info to the web site http://preventing-diabetes.co.uk/selfrerral/

Also here is telephone no.    0333 577 3010.

It is a National Organisation with Branches pretty well all over England, It is run by a Company and the NHS and is free to people who qualify.

I have self referred and have been accepted. They are trying to set up a Group close to me but they say they will contact me in about a month with information of the local Group info.

I have not heard yet, but will let you know more when they contact me.

I think you come from Norwich ?? I know there are groups there but no more than that.

I had no problems in getting in contact and the web site and Phone contact dealt with me and gave me all I needed to know.

Hope this is of interest to you.

Regards

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Acme
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 10:18 AM

Introducing a different kind of "emotional subject." I just listened to an interview with writer/director David Lynch (Twin Peaks, Blue Velvet, The Elephant Man, Eraserhead, etc.) on NPR (Weekend Edition Sunday morning). The host asked him why the women in his films suffer such anxiety and hardship and he talked about "falling in love with an idea," and not having to suffer himself in order to portray suffering. Would his films be as successful if the women were happier? I haven't seen all of his films, and it has been a long time since I've seen any of them, but I have to agree with Lulu, the NPR host. His women characters can be grim.

Not every film in which women face hardships is going to end up like (for example, all by different writers and directors) Shirley Valentine and Norma Rae or other strong female characters (The Piano, Heartland, Places in the Heart, etc.) but I certainly enjoy those more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 08:59 AM

Walking is a great way of exercising, Mike. I guess you are retired and may have time for it. I would strongly advise getting a pair of decent shoes or boots to cushion the impact and protect you from jolts. I am wearing Sketchers at the mo. Great for urban pavements but not good for anything rougher. I have a pair of good hiking boots for rough terrain and some lighter hiking shoes for anything in between. It is not Emelda Marcos syndrome. Just a great belief in looking after my feet :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: MikeL2
Date: 15 Jun 18 - 10:58 AM

hi Dave

Pleased to hear that you are having success with your life-style changes. It is early days for me. But I am determined to keep going in my task.

I am trying to increase exercise gradually and it seems to me that I feel better for the weight loss. I have been in sport all of my life and feel frustrated at not being able to do only very limited exercise now.

cheers Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 03:37 PM

I am also at risk, Mike. Purely weight related. I managed to lose a bit and came out of the red zone but never really succeeded in getting a healthier lifestyle. Recently though I have managed a couple of lifestyle changes that are helping a lot. I will rarely eat anything that is heavily processed and I try to exercise every day even if it is only 30 minutes walking - Often more and including cycling now. I am also making good use of an extra day a week off work I now have and using to go for a much longer walk in the surrounding countryside. Up to now the weight is coming down but the biggest bonus is I feel so much better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 03:36 PM

You did well to lose a stone Mike! Do you think you might get a replacement knee joint in the near future?
Apart from Shloer, my sin is dairy, since I love full milk, cream and butter. The doc talks about 'good' cholesterol and 'bad' cholesterol, and apparently mine is erring on the 'good' side.
I'd be very keen to know how you get on in the Health Group.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: MikeL2
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 03:04 PM

Hi Dave & Sen

I watched the program and am recording second episode tonight.

I don't have Type 2 Diabetes but have recently been informed by my Doctor that I am at risk.

He has got me to apply for a place in "A healthier Group which is held in many areas of the UK.

I have applied to take part but not heard anything yet.

I understand it comprises eating healthy combined with doing light exercise. The latter bothers me as I am 82 and have an arthritic knee.
I do limp around as much as I can, but it is not much.
I am not unduly overweight - I have recently cut down on food mainly by having smaller portions and cutting down on alcohol, In doing so I have lost a stone in weight.

I will report what the Healthier Group come up with.

Regards MikeL2


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 03:02 PM

They live on another planet don't they Jim? Arrogant pigs!


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 02:55 PM

I think I told people about the time The Duke of Westminster locked me in his kitchen because he thought I might steal the family silver
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 01:53 PM

That would be excellent Jim. Let's hope it comes to pass. As you say, there are a lot of people watching the situation who won't sit idly by while these poor folk are ignored and fobbed off.

My father knew Kensington like the back of his hand. His job meant he had to visit the extremely wealthy to arrange telephone services etc. (Telecommunications Officer, London Western Area Manager for the GPO) Like you, he too saw the deplorable contrast between the rich and the very poor in the Borough (and this was in the fifties). He even had to personally visit Princess blooming Margaret in Kensington Palace (who was as arrogant as heck).
People like that make my blood boil...


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 01:41 PM

"I bet they won't though"
I don't think this will be allowed to slip out of sight Sen
The Borough and the surrounding ones are the wealthiest in Britain and also the most socially unequal
I worked for a cousin of the Queen, Lord Snowdon, Ruby Wax, Shirley Bassey's manager, Joan Collins, The Duke of Westminster, Nicholas Roeg and and his wife, Theresa Russell and a leading Q.C. who played Bruce Springsteen guitar and used to date a Northern Irish republican girl... and many more, all at the same time as servicing some of those awful slums - talk about seeing how both halves live!
Today's commemorations suggest that these survivors will get what they are entitled to - hopefully!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 01:24 PM

Yes Dave, I did indeed watch it, and it looks very promising that Type 2 can be reversed. It was my bossy sister on the phone who said that I was a (insert very rude word here) to touch Shloer, and was asking for diabetes. I haven't told her I'm now on it again and need rehab!!

Jim, I quite agree about the Grenfell survivors, and the story of the treatment of tenants over quite a long period of history of the area was heartbreaking. (I watched that too on TV last night) Exploitation and complete lack of interest in conditions, safety, fair rents etc by landlords, including the local council.

They seem most reluctant to do anything much for the survivors. They should be falling over themselves to help them (and offering huge compensation). I bet they won't though...


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 09:56 AM

Most of the survivors of the Grenfell Tower Fire are still homeless, and that's how it will remain, PROMISES THE HOME SECRETARY
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 09:55 AM

Did you see the programme about type 2 diabetes remission, Sen? I didn't watch it but Mrs G was telling me it is quite promising. Very low calorie diet for a number of weeks then gradually reintroduce normal eating to keep the weight off. Worked for a lot of people but hopefully you will never need to try :-)

Steve - I am going to get some Nero d'Avola to take to my mate's next week. Can you recommend a complimentary white? They usually have a Sauvignon Blanc from Chile or some other such furrin parts...


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 09:28 AM

And their Shloer is only £1 a bottle, so thank you again Dave!
(And I'll be suing you if I get type 2 diabetes from all the sugar therein!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 08:11 AM

I'll just take the credit anyway. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 06:55 AM

I'm very emotional about the fact that Morrisons Nero d'Avola is currently two for ten quid. If that was you, Dave, well done me old son!


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 06:49 AM

Still reckon Bugs Bunny's "Kill the Wabbit" was Wagner at his very best
It used to drive Tom Munnelly spare - I still giggle at the thought of it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 06:46 AM

Coming back to the original subject in a roundabout sort of way, I watched the end of the BBC drama 'A very British Scandal' last night. I do remember it happening but could not recall the details. What struck me most was how the jury was manipulated by both the defense and the judge. The defense ripped into witnesses for the prosecution, which was their job of course. But not with anything particularly relevant to the case in question. It was all about scoring points by presenting the 'truth' with the slant in their favour. The judge, in his summation, was ridiculously biased but somehow got away with it apart from having the piss taken out of him for years to come by contemporary comedians.

What happened in the end of course was that Thorpe, who in all probability was guilty of inciting murder at the very least, got away Scot free (no pun intended) There are those on here that would have us believe that such manipulation is perfectly acceptable and they indulge in it regularly. I do not accept that it is is and, even though this is a very trivial forum, we should not allow such dishonesty a foothold or we may end up seeing it everywhere.

Just my 2p and bringing us back to Al's original point of being able to discuss without getting so serious and emotional about it. Eventually :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 06:26 AM

I find his music suffused with ego. I find the same thing with Liszt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 06:19 AM

My sister went to Bayreuth many years ago to experience Der Ring Des Nibelungen, and said it was fabulous. But I don't like Wagner's bombastic style one bit, and being subjected to it day after day, hour after hour would have driven me round the bend (or 'wahnsinning'!).


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 06:09 AM

Wagner's alleged influence on film score composers is at least arguable, I suppose, but in the wider context of the direction that classical music has taken I think his music represented a dead end. Of course, his followers would claim that his music reached a pinnacle which couldn't be surmounted, but they would, wouldn't they. I see very little of his influence on composers beyond the early part of the last century, with the exception of Richard Strauss, who at least managed to move away from the heaviness and overstuffedness of it. I'd ten times sooner see an opera by Mozart, Verdi or Puccini than anything by Wagner any day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 06:00 AM

"my late fried,"
A typo, not a reference to a cremation
Tom Was buried in w wicker coffin in Ballard Road Graveyard, Miltown Malbay
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 03:27 AM

I've never liked Wagner, and I think he found a comfortable home with the NAZIS
I'm not sure how I'd have got on if I liked his music - my late fried, Tom Munnelly shared many of my political views but his (unfulfilled) ambition was to attend Beyruth - we argued endlessly on the sunject into the early hours over several pints.
I was delighted to have found him a second-hand copy of George Bernard Shaw's 'The Perfect Wagnerite: A Commentary on the Nibelung's Ring'
Maybe the most suitable use his music was put to was in Francis Ford Coppola's Apocalypse Now - certainly a fine backdrop to those helicopters
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 09:31 PM

K:
I think that is an excellent point. When I was learning music in the public schools it was called 'programmatic music' I believe and I don't recall Wagner nor Opera being used as examples, rather the music of Strauss and specifically his compostion: "Till Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks" because the events depicted by the music are damn near oenomatopoetic: Till riding his horse and splashing the noblemen, Till before the judge, Till's neck being snapped by the rope...


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: keberoxu
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 01:53 PM

I visited that museum, years ago, robomatic.
I remember the images (artistic, not photographs)
of adult Chinese women with the consequences of foot-binding.

Another angle of the influence of Wagner.
There is an essential genre of music,
essential to the twentieth century and the present century,
of sound-tracks for motion pictures.

Not Wagner alone, of course, but the whole legacy of opera in general
is brought to bear in composing feature-film sound-tracks.
Recall Erich von Korngold, sound-track composer for such films
as "Captain Blood,"
who got his start composing both light operetta and
full-on serious operas in Vienna.
Hollywood was quite the destination
for emigré European composers, especially Central Europeans,
in the twentieth century.

I reckon that film audiences, especially younger-generations of film sound-track composers,
have been soaking up that European influence --
which decidedly includes Wagner --
more than many of them appreciate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 18 - 10:10 PM

There's a small museum in Milton, Massachusetts: I remember it being called The Museum of the American China Trade. Now it seems to be Forbes House Museum . It was a sea captain's house. The docents were lovely elderly New England ladies who gave very personalized tours. One of them was talking about the opium trade which was mostly English, but she said, in a low confidential voice "we had ten percent of that trade."


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 18 - 04:14 PM

And of course, what New England colleges would there be today if not for the wealth generated by the "Triangle Trade"

"The best-known triangular trading system is the transatlantic slave trade, that operated from the late 16th to early 19th centuries, carrying slaves, cash crops, and manufactured goods between West Africa, Caribbean or American colonies and the European colonial powers, with the northern colonies of British North America, especially New England, sometimes taking over the role of Europe.[1] The use of African slaves was fundamental to growing colonial cash crops, which were exported to Europe. European goods, in turn, were used to purchase African slaves, who were then brought on the sea lane west from Africa to the Americas, the so-called Middle Passage.[2] Despite being driven primarily by economic needs, Europeans sometimes had a religious justification for their actions. In 1452, for instance, Pope Nicholas V, in the Dum Diversas, granted to the kings of Spain and Portugal "full and free permission to invade, search out, capture, and subjugate the Saracens [Muslims] and pagans and any other unbelievers ... and to reduce their persons into perpetual slavery."

A classic example is the colonial molasses trade. Sugar (often in its liquid form, molasses) from the Caribbean was traded to Europe or New England, where it was distilled into rum. The profits from the sale of sugar were used to purchase manufactured goods, which were then shipped to West Africa, where they were bartered for slaves. The slaves were then brought back to the Caribbean to be sold to sugar planters. The profits from the sale of the slaves were then used to buy more sugar, which was shipped to Europe, restarting the cycle. The trip itself took five to twelve weeks."


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 18 - 03:40 PM

It is scary to think of such things as moral boundries being less than hard edged, but this is the way it is.
One of my favorite actors, Hal Holbrook, started young with extensive makeup and did very creditable performances as Mark Twain who travelled widely and performed solo for audiences. In one of his monologues from Huckleberry Finn, Huck finds himself in a moral quandary, because Jim is running away from his legal owner. Huck lies to the slave hunters and feel guilty about it, but he reflects on the fact that if he'd turned Jim in he'd feel bad:

"What's the use you learning to do right when it's troublesome to do right and ain't no trouble to do wrong, and the wages is just the same?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 18 - 03:21 PM

The question becomes, is one judging the work ( of art) or the artist?

All the Greek philosophers lived in slave holding societies.

So would NOTHING created from before, say, 1700 be acceptable? What about 19th century "poor houses"? Are they fundamentally any different from slavery?

IMO one should judge the work without regard to the artist- One thing I dislike is so-called "art" that depends on sympathy for the artist. I have great sympathy for the child dying of cancer, but does that make his/her poetry or crayon drawings any better art?


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Acme
Date: 10 Jun 18 - 12:55 AM

Good read - I was thinking of him as I wrote. I have only seen the Keillor accusations referenced, I haven't actually read anything from the women who accused him. And there is a line to acknowledge - famous people attract attention, and sometimes get attention from disturbed people. Most of this is probably regular rational people speaking up, but there will be a subset needing closer examination, probably away from the public eye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 18 - 12:48 AM

Hi, Acme -
The move to remove Garrison Keillor's A Prairie Home Companion show is very problematic to me. I don't doubt that Garrison was guilty of the misconduct he was accused of, but his archive of programs has some of the best performances of modern American folk musicians - and it appears those great performances will be forever unavailable.
I'm sure some of those performers, were Keillor's victims. Same with performers who were victims of Cosby and Weinstein.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Acme
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 11:44 PM

Joe, you hit the nail on the head - there just doesn't seem to be a suitable answer.

I think we must separate the art from the flawed artist for a number of reasons - first and foremost, as fashions and mores ebb and flow, behavior is often scrutinized and either rejected or ignored. The whole moral turpitude complaint against gay men (lesbians were below the radar for a really really long time) is meaningless now for reasonable people. There are great films out there made by nasty men; but they didn't make the films by themselves, they simply got to hang a name on it. Consider the contributions of the others as something that lets you continue to love those films. The name can be separated from the work of art.

When the reverse happens, when the behavior was ignored for so long and now is so hugely in our faces, like Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein, again, they didn't do all of that work by themselves. Cosby is like some kind of split personality, knowing what to say onscreen, doing the absolute worst offscreen.

The link I posted earlier to the discussion of the work of Roman Polanski ties in. He was charged with rape a very long time ago; he says he has "paid." Who gets to decide that? All of these bad-behaving men - many are nasty SOBs, but what they did isn't given the death penalty. Shunning is alive and well, not just the practice of cloistered Mennonite or Amish communities. How will those individuals who were cast out, the really bad, the kind of bad, and those who probably have a good answer but no one is listening, how will they support themselves? Do they have residuals to tide them over? When will they be allowed back in society? To again perform their art? Actual criminal prisoners who are released are on their own to try to start over. How does that happen with some of these shunned folks?

Don't get me wrong, Harvey can rot in Hell. Bill Cosby was a handsome, gregarious, rich guy who could have had affairs on the side, little harm done, but he preferred to drug and rape women. He can rot right alongside Harvey. Others I see stepping aside for the good of their party or organization, and I think maybe there's a more complex story there. Perhaps as time passes, some will speak up. How come that whole Kobe Bryant mess hasn't come up again? There are some messed up women in the world who will be contributing to this for their own reasons.

What brought this about? Trump. He's getting away with his bad behavior toward women because a ton of enablers (mostly rich white men) want him to dismantle social programs and economic protections and taken back federal lands from protected status and give industry a shot at polluting land and water, not until he has done as much as he can get away with will they rein him in. The ire of American women is up, and until they can take down the worst perpetrator who cheated and lost the popular vote to Hillary, who still ended up in office, heads will continue to roll. As they should. (The difference between Trump and most of these other guys? Trump is all about Trump, everything all of the time must reference him. At least the others produced art.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 11:13 PM

I gotta say, this is working out to be a fascinating discussion. But before I go any further, I have to tell Robomatic that I think Mel Gibson movies are really creepy in their fixation on violence.

I suppose I could find Wagner creepy, too. I remember visiting one of the palaces of Mad King Ludwig II of Bavaria, hearing about the King's fixation on Wagner and the King's subsequent suicide, and something about half-naked servants pulling him through the water in a shell-shaped boat. But there's a bombastic extravagance in Wagner's music that I enjoy despite myself. I find I take wicked pleasure in a number of things that my idealistic self says I shouldn't enjoy. But then I say, what the hell? And I like what I like, and don't get too moralistic about it. And when I find myself getting moralistic, I know the best response is to laugh at myself.

But that brings up a much wider question about art and moral turpitude. It seems that society has a constant urge to suppress the artistic works of those who have violated the current mores of society. The kerfuffle around the #MeToo movement is the current example of this. Is it wrong for us to enjoy the artistic output of people who have violated the mores of society? If a person is immoral, does that mean that he/she cannot product any work that is of value?

I have known and liked people who were later accused of molesting children. How do I deal with that? Is the good that happened in my relationship with that person invalid? Does their horrible crime invalidate all the good they have done?

I had a Music professor who wouldn't perform the works of any composer he disagreed with. I disliked the professor, so of course I thought he was full of shit. But was he?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 10:21 PM

Ok, I'm gonna try a less solemnly emotional tack but on the same subject.

I disagree with and detest Mel Gibson's views on his version of Catholicism and his apparent view on Jews. But, I sure love his Mad Max flicks. And his early lethal weapon movies. And, in a perverse way, Apocalypto. Many of his other flicks are self-serving in character and presentation, and he is limited as an actor because of that. But he is clearly talented, entertaining, and has a large solid body of work to be proud of.

This possibly is a distinction between Americans and those on the East side of the Atlantic. We Yanks like being entertained even if we are not politically as one with the entertainer. There are many right wingers who bitch about the reds out in Hollywood, but they go to the movies without vetting them first. I learned this when all the Alaska oil business folks I worked with went to see Avatar with their families and loved it without spending a lot of time or attention on its environmentalist message.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 07:22 PM

Two very thoughtful posts there, so cheers to keberoxu and robomatic. Wagner thought he was changing the world via his music dramas, but, apart from the influences that keberoxu alluded to (which in my view shackled those composers), he really didn't change much at all, and I'd suggest that you'd find it hard to find many twentieth century composers after Debussy who showed that influence to any significant extent. OK, Richard Strauss. I love Strauss and I've tussled very hard with myself to exonerate him sufficiently from Nazi influences in my mind (I've managed it). I find a beauty and lyricism and humanity in Strauss's music that I can't find in any Wagner, not even the Siegfried Idyll. Long before I read the one book I'd bought that pointed sharply to Wagner's vicious antisemitism, I'd found his music to be overinflated, overblown and full of ego, not to speak of replete with longeurs. I haven't experienced the phenomenon outlined by robomatic, but I'd say that suddenly deciding you don't like a piece of classical music because you've just discovered something unsavoury about the composer would mark you out as somewhat feeble-minded. My view is that composers are human beings with human failings like the rest of us, and their amazing talent in their field doesn't make them saints. Schubert and Benjamin Britten both had alleged predilections for the "company" of the underaged. I love Schubert and dislike Britten. I'd better try to unravel myself I suppose (but not un-Ravel myself - he's one of my very favourites). My beef with Wagner and Karajan is that they mixed up their disgusting and detestable politics with the genre of music that I love the most, in their different ways, and that obliges me to blank them out of my life. A personal view only.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 07:11 PM

Note for note
Mendelsohn
outwrote
Herr Wagner
without
any swagger.


If we all remain completely objective it is clear Trump is an objectively unique corrupt, hateful, history free autocrat.

Of course that requires some expertise in US Presidential history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Acme
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 06:34 PM

Tonight on All Things Considered Saturday the host interviewed an author and film maker (Death and the Maiden) who had Roman Polanski direct it because he brings many experiences and points of view to the project. 10 minute interview, film discussion about 5 min. in. Michele Martin was clearly emotionally ready to jump down his throat over the choice, but restrained herself. Good journalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 06:16 PM

It's a kind of prejudice to confuse the works of people with the personal histories of people. But the nice way of saying it is that it's a judgment call. It's the kind of thing that bigots do when they find out that a nice piece of music was written by someone they don't like (or even worse, someone from an ethnic group they're not supposed to like, and they're committing mind control on themselves for cryin' out loud.
But it is human nature like everything else. There is undoubtedly a big split in listeners to those old Bill Cosby comedy albums. I can understand that.
Listening (or not) to Von Karajan recordings or the works of Wagner or Orff, I can understand it being a factor that people may judge in the artist's history versus the art; I personally do listen to 'em all, although I personally feel that Porgy and Bess, Oklahoma, South Pacific and West Side Story are greater works of art than the entire Ring Cycle. That's my judgment. Is it prejudice? Possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 01:40 PM

Wagner, in my opinion, was an anomaly. A one-off.
Which is different than being a charlatan.

I had the life-altering experience, getting my applied-music degree at university,
of taking a course on the Life and Music of Richard Wagner,
taught by a musicology master (that's music history)
whose ancestry was immigrant Russian Jews, escaping the pogroms.
But he was born and raised in the Bronx,
with the accent and the bellicose attitude to go with it.

He remarked candidly once,
that he could not happily teach a course
on the Life and Music of Beethoven
because he was too in awe of Beethoven to do the job properly.
But, he said,
with Wagner he had a love-hate fascination,
and he found it deeply satisfying
to work this out by teaching a course on the subject!

Parsifal will never again sound the same,
not after the lecture on the Nazis' Final Solution relative to
the -- shoot, what was it? a spear, or a sword? --
touching the Holy Grail, and purifying the "blood"/contents.

There is actually an impressive panel of experts, figuratively speaking, throughout history,
testifying for the influence -- the constructive influence --
of Wagner's music, regardless of Wagner's person.
They are classical music composers themselves.
And I don't mean the composers of weak character
who were stunned by the force of Wagner's compositions.

I mean composers as disparate as Debussy and Brahms.
Debussy, a force to be reckoned with in his own right,
had to grapple with the Wagnerian influence as he matured.
And while Brahms was famously pitted against Wagner by the critics,
Brahms, with his sense of inferiority, his crippling perfectionism,
and stubborn persistence,
added music scores of Wagner to his library of Bach, and Schubert, and so on,
and studied Wagner's music with diligence and thoughtfulness.

Verdi, finally, is a good example of the resigned ambivalence of
other composers to the presence of Wagner in their midst.
I don't dispute the Verdi quote in earlier post on this thread.

It is also a fact that old Verdi outlived Wagner,
and his letters/journal record his response:
"Sad, sad, sad. Wagner is dead!"

Not to mention, that Rossini acquitted himself so well, in
Wagner's presence, insults or no insults,
that Wagner would later confess
that Rossini was one of the greatest men he had ever met.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Kenny B
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 01:19 PM

Steve "I don't see how they can create beautiful, life-affirming art when they're like that."

Isnt it that times and standards have changed and the media wasnt as adept at demolishing reputations, also the people who financed most of these folks didnt care..... well maybe times havnt really changed till the folks get caught.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 01:13 PM

phew... at least as far as we know evil kiddie fiddler Gary Glitter wasn't a n@zi...

..so I can still continue enjoying his greatest glitter glam rock hits behind closed curtains on headphones...

Same with Led Zep despite their 1970s satanistic excesses...


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 12:39 PM

It's OK to have individual human failings. Beethoven never emptied his potty, even when guests arrived, and Mozart was obsessed with smutty jokes about poo and bottoms. Sibelius gave up composing and lived on champagne and lobsters for decades. Picasso was an inveterate womaniser and Schubert probably died of syphilis contracted from one of the many prostitutes he used. It isn't OK to have a fascistic ego bigger than my arse and preach that Jews were poor composers because they are an inferior race, or cheerfully promote the Nazi party during the war in your concerts. Such individuals suffer from far more than common human flaws. I don't see how they can create beautiful, life-affirming art when they're like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 12:06 PM

The reality is a lot of highly esteemed artistic creative folks,
are, one way or another, really shitty human beings...

So.... do bastards and arseholes make better art than happy kind hearted nice folks...????


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 11:46 AM

Or try the history of the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra. Don't forget to contemplate the misogyny thereof while you're at it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 11:35 PM

Talking of Nazis, try this on for size.

History of the Salzburg Festival


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Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 01:50 PM

it don't sound as good as it is
M. Twain


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